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	<title>Comments on: Another Argument Against The &#8220;Artist Must Get Paid&#8221; Nonsense</title>
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		<title>By: pdxtb</title>
		<link>/another-argument-against-the-artist-must-get-paid-nonsense-140720/#comment-1237535</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pdxtb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2014 04:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://torrentfreak.com/?p=91286#comment-1237535</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, nobody cares if you buy legal second hand product, so knock yourself out. I don&#039;t know what the artists have done to earn your obvious contempt, but I guess that&#039;s the nature of sociopathy. Normal people don&#039;t get it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, nobody cares if you buy legal second hand product, so knock yourself out. I don&#8217;t know what the artists have done to earn your obvious contempt, but I guess that&#8217;s the nature of sociopathy. Normal people don&#8217;t get it.</p>
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		<title>By: pdxtb</title>
		<link>/another-argument-against-the-artist-must-get-paid-nonsense-140720/#comment-1237534</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pdxtb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2014 04:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://torrentfreak.com/?p=91286#comment-1237534</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Total textbook fucking straw man argument. Nobody ever said anything about artists deserving to get paid when someone &quot;enjoys&quot; their music.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Total textbook fucking straw man argument. Nobody ever said anything about artists deserving to get paid when someone &#8220;enjoys&#8221; their music.</p>
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		<title>By: tetridae</title>
		<link>/another-argument-against-the-artist-must-get-paid-nonsense-140720/#comment-1234001</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tetridae]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 17:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://torrentfreak.com/?p=91286#comment-1234001</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you look at the numbers for the last 10 years live revenues rocket while sales of copies plummet. That is usually good for the artists, right? Much larger percentage for live play than selling copies. Selling records seems to be on the way down, but people still spend money on music, just not so much the records nowadays.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you look at the numbers for the last 10 years live revenues rocket while sales of copies plummet. That is usually good for the artists, right? Much larger percentage for live play than selling copies. Selling records seems to be on the way down, but people still spend money on music, just not so much the records nowadays.</p>
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		<title>By: hecramsey2</title>
		<link>/another-argument-against-the-artist-must-get-paid-nonsense-140720/#comment-1233999</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hecramsey2]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 17:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://torrentfreak.com/?p=91286#comment-1233999</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know anyone who has seen that kind of money come in.   It&#039;s always, always, always been the nature of things that most creatives get screwed.  I remember bands who were getting plenty of airplay, drawing big crowds, lots of buzz and PR and they still had day jobs.  Film is worse.  Lots of crooks out there who have no qualms about stealing from starry eyed innocents.  The thing that needs to change is not the business model.  It&#039;s large than that, more of a how do artists grow fangs and learn to fight back effectively?  The DIY movement in the early punk days was a good start, but it got corportized and now is mainstream.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know anyone who has seen that kind of money come in.   It&#8217;s always, always, always been the nature of things that most creatives get screwed.  I remember bands who were getting plenty of airplay, drawing big crowds, lots of buzz and PR and they still had day jobs.  Film is worse.  Lots of crooks out there who have no qualms about stealing from starry eyed innocents.  The thing that needs to change is not the business model.  It&#8217;s large than that, more of a how do artists grow fangs and learn to fight back effectively?  The DIY movement in the early punk days was a good start, but it got corportized and now is mainstream.</p>
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		<title>By: tetridae</title>
		<link>/another-argument-against-the-artist-must-get-paid-nonsense-140720/#comment-1233808</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tetridae]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://torrentfreak.com/?p=91286#comment-1233808</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Might not have been possible before internet, but now is possible for fans to gang up and pay together. And you don&#039;t have to press your own disc, you can just upload the songs - well unless the publishing industries gets their way and manages to shut down all hobby sharing services...

Sadly haven&#039;t seen many bands do that - but some other, like drawing artists, video bloggers and game makers have joined up and some of them get paid quite handsomely too (thousands of dollars a month).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Might not have been possible before internet, but now is possible for fans to gang up and pay together. And you don&#8217;t have to press your own disc, you can just upload the songs &#8211; well unless the publishing industries gets their way and manages to shut down all hobby sharing services&#8230;</p>
<p>Sadly haven&#8217;t seen many bands do that &#8211; but some other, like drawing artists, video bloggers and game makers have joined up and some of them get paid quite handsomely too (thousands of dollars a month).</p>
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		<title>By: hecramsey2</title>
		<link>/another-argument-against-the-artist-must-get-paid-nonsense-140720/#comment-1233802</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hecramsey2]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 15:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://torrentfreak.com/?p=91286#comment-1233802</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It sounds like my youth -- early 80&#039;s punk and hardcore bands would scrounge their pennies and work crappy day jobs, then quit and go on tour in the summer on starvation budgets in beat up vans to tiny crap hole clubs with no running water, play their hearts out, sell their self pressed singles or cassettes out of the trunk.   This was pre internet, this was the only way to get your music out.  It&#039;s romantic and idealistic and was a thrilling time when we all felt wow, 40 people showed up, we sold 10 singles, what great night, in this strange town miles from home.  And some of these band did build up and become major successes, like Minor Threat, the Meat Puppets, Husker Du.

It takes a lot of time to make music.  People need to pay rent, buy food, go to a movie once in a while.  So asking them to give it away is ok for while, everyone works for free now and then, or when they start out.  But it is not a long term model.

And it still seems a consumer making demands on the creator -- give me that for free, you should work for free.  Where is the consumer&#039;s sacrifice?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds like my youth &#8212; early 80&#8242;s punk and hardcore bands would scrounge their pennies and work crappy day jobs, then quit and go on tour in the summer on starvation budgets in beat up vans to tiny crap hole clubs with no running water, play their hearts out, sell their self pressed singles or cassettes out of the trunk.   This was pre internet, this was the only way to get your music out.  It&#8217;s romantic and idealistic and was a thrilling time when we all felt wow, 40 people showed up, we sold 10 singles, what great night, in this strange town miles from home.  And some of these band did build up and become major successes, like Minor Threat, the Meat Puppets, Husker Du.</p>
<p>It takes a lot of time to make music.  People need to pay rent, buy food, go to a movie once in a while.  So asking them to give it away is ok for while, everyone works for free now and then, or when they start out.  But it is not a long term model.</p>
<p>And it still seems a consumer making demands on the creator &#8212; give me that for free, you should work for free.  Where is the consumer&#8217;s sacrifice?</p>
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		<title>By: tetridae</title>
		<link>/another-argument-against-the-artist-must-get-paid-nonsense-140720/#comment-1233108</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tetridae]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2014 08:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://torrentfreak.com/?p=91286#comment-1233108</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am sincere. I really don&#039;t see any reason why creative work can not be financed as a continous job or one time investment in advance. Once again if you really are a creator I would like to make PR for patreon.com , kickstarter.com and other sites which allows continous funding and/or one time funding of bigger project.


A patent would not help me much. It costs a lot to just file for a patent.. like $75k in Sweden if I dont remember wrong, and that&#039;s just where the costy parts start. You got to be able to protect your patent in court if it is to be worth anything. And as a lone inventor with no big riches backing me up, that is just fantasy. I&#039;d better do a cool Proof of Concept (like a Demo) and head over to a big company / investor and say &quot;hey, I can do these cool things, if you want to I can make one for you!&quot;. 


A creator can do that too. Demos of early works to show the world. Get fans to help pay for your (future) work. And if it is a really big investment there is kickstarter - but for instance cinema still rakes in a lot even though copying. In 2012 was an all time high in Sweden ticket sales to cinemas. Even though movie sharing had been rampant on the internet since well, at least 2005. People are willing to pay for entertainment. Maybe not by the copy very much, but for live or social events and many other things.


There are also many negative effects of copy restrict and patents on the economy. One is that people tend find ways squeeze in between to earn money for themselves with help of the creators work (and patents too of course). Another is that jobs where you are paid by the hour and there are no &quot;copies&quot; to be sold anywhere - will automatically be valued less than copy restrict. No wonder almost no one wants to work in health care for instance - both boring and underpaid compared to if you can ride the gravy train of idols and superstars.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sincere. I really don&#8217;t see any reason why creative work can not be financed as a continous job or one time investment in advance. Once again if you really are a creator I would like to make PR for patreon.com , kickstarter.com and other sites which allows continous funding and/or one time funding of bigger project.</p>
<p>A patent would not help me much. It costs a lot to just file for a patent.. like $75k in Sweden if I dont remember wrong, and that&#8217;s just where the costy parts start. You got to be able to protect your patent in court if it is to be worth anything. And as a lone inventor with no big riches backing me up, that is just fantasy. I&#8217;d better do a cool Proof of Concept (like a Demo) and head over to a big company / investor and say &#8220;hey, I can do these cool things, if you want to I can make one for you!&#8221;. </p>
<p>A creator can do that too. Demos of early works to show the world. Get fans to help pay for your (future) work. And if it is a really big investment there is kickstarter &#8211; but for instance cinema still rakes in a lot even though copying. In 2012 was an all time high in Sweden ticket sales to cinemas. Even though movie sharing had been rampant on the internet since well, at least 2005. People are willing to pay for entertainment. Maybe not by the copy very much, but for live or social events and many other things.</p>
<p>There are also many negative effects of copy restrict and patents on the economy. One is that people tend find ways squeeze in between to earn money for themselves with help of the creators work (and patents too of course). Another is that jobs where you are paid by the hour and there are no &#8220;copies&#8221; to be sold anywhere &#8211; will automatically be valued less than copy restrict. No wonder almost no one wants to work in health care for instance &#8211; both boring and underpaid compared to if you can ride the gravy train of idols and superstars.</p>
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		<title>By: hecramsey2</title>
		<link>/another-argument-against-the-artist-must-get-paid-nonsense-140720/#comment-1233094</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[hecramsey2]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2014 03:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://torrentfreak.com/?p=91286#comment-1233094</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In your examples:

1) I spend a year or two creating an awesome rock opera called Quadrophenia or Zen Arcade.  I make copies and sell it.  The cost of those 2 years labor, physical, mental, creative,materials, is figured into the price of each piece, in addition to the cost of the physical medium, shipping, advertising, a little profit here and there.

2) I work as a database developer.   I get paid by the hour.  to write a database application for a company.  I&#039;ve been working a year and if all goes well January 1st they start using it.  Then I go to new project at some other company.  I sign a contract that says &quot;this program is yours now.  See ya&quot;.  The cost of my physical, mental and creative labor is figured into the the hourly rate. Welcome to the grind.

Now in 1) anyone can make a copy of Zen Arcade or Quadrophenia without putting in 2 years of work.  So for them to profit from 0 investment outside the cost of their purchase is unfair.  TPB profits from distributing Quadrophenia through advertsiments.  They also dilute the value of it by increasing the supply, so people are less likely to buy a copy.  Used copies do the same thing but on a 1:1 scale, not a 1:anyone with a computer scale.

In case  2) While my client owns the software, it would be outrageously difficult for them to distribute it .  If They sold it to Exxon they it would not work.  The effort involved with making it work would be more than writing a new one.  Even if they could, that is figured into the hourly rate.

What about unique and inventive ideas, you ask?  That is where patents come it.  If I come up with something awesome and groundbreaking while writing this thing you can damn well be sure I will NOT put it in the final product unless I am very handsomely rewarded.  The likelihood of that happening is very remote, I&#039;&#039;m not very smart and kind of lazy.

But that is an inherent flaw in contracting -- I am actively discouraged from innovating.  Since I can&#039;t profit from it, I kind of think eh, I&#039;ll do it with as little effort as possible.  But that is another discussion.

I hope you are sincere and not trolling.  This is stimulating.  BTW I think in the profit model of entertainment (DVDS, Movies, Music) we should be able to return something if we hate it.  I think if a movie sucks and I leave halfway through i should get my money back.  That is a standard consumer model -- If you buy a TV and it doesn&#039;t work you return it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In your examples:</p>
<p>1) I spend a year or two creating an awesome rock opera called Quadrophenia or Zen Arcade.  I make copies and sell it.  The cost of those 2 years labor, physical, mental, creative,materials, is figured into the price of each piece, in addition to the cost of the physical medium, shipping, advertising, a little profit here and there.</p>
<p>2) I work as a database developer.   I get paid by the hour.  to write a database application for a company.  I&#8217;ve been working a year and if all goes well January 1st they start using it.  Then I go to new project at some other company.  I sign a contract that says &#8220;this program is yours now.  See ya&#8221;.  The cost of my physical, mental and creative labor is figured into the the hourly rate. Welcome to the grind.</p>
<p>Now in 1) anyone can make a copy of Zen Arcade or Quadrophenia without putting in 2 years of work.  So for them to profit from 0 investment outside the cost of their purchase is unfair.  TPB profits from distributing Quadrophenia through advertsiments.  They also dilute the value of it by increasing the supply, so people are less likely to buy a copy.  Used copies do the same thing but on a 1:1 scale, not a 1:anyone with a computer scale.</p>
<p>In case  2) While my client owns the software, it would be outrageously difficult for them to distribute it .  If They sold it to Exxon they it would not work.  The effort involved with making it work would be more than writing a new one.  Even if they could, that is figured into the hourly rate.</p>
<p>What about unique and inventive ideas, you ask?  That is where patents come it.  If I come up with something awesome and groundbreaking while writing this thing you can damn well be sure I will NOT put it in the final product unless I am very handsomely rewarded.  The likelihood of that happening is very remote, I&#8221;m not very smart and kind of lazy.</p>
<p>But that is an inherent flaw in contracting &#8212; I am actively discouraged from innovating.  Since I can&#8217;t profit from it, I kind of think eh, I&#8217;ll do it with as little effort as possible.  But that is another discussion.</p>
<p>I hope you are sincere and not trolling.  This is stimulating.  BTW I think in the profit model of entertainment (DVDS, Movies, Music) we should be able to return something if we hate it.  I think if a movie sucks and I leave halfway through i should get my money back.  That is a standard consumer model &#8212; If you buy a TV and it doesn&#8217;t work you return it.</p>
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		<title>By: tetridae</title>
		<link>/another-argument-against-the-artist-must-get-paid-nonsense-140720/#comment-1233078</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tetridae]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2014 22:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://torrentfreak.com/?p=91286#comment-1233078</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes everything else walks. But not necessarily following the route you want them too. 


An entrepreneur who primarily needs freedom (from monopolies or just personal freedom in general) and not money to be able to create an invention that is actually useful. Would rather emigrate to a place where he can pursue his dream that than stay and do a mind dulling job which follows all the established rules, even though it may pay better.


Easy for a geeky eccentric like me to imagine 100 - 1000 useful applications to media, culture and other kinds of digital &quot;content&quot;, but as long as the law stands in it&#039;s current form it is not even worth thinking about those possibilites.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes everything else walks. But not necessarily following the route you want them too. </p>
<p>An entrepreneur who primarily needs freedom (from monopolies or just personal freedom in general) and not money to be able to create an invention that is actually useful. Would rather emigrate to a place where he can pursue his dream that than stay and do a mind dulling job which follows all the established rules, even though it may pay better.</p>
<p>Easy for a geeky eccentric like me to imagine 100 &#8211; 1000 useful applications to media, culture and other kinds of digital &#8220;content&#8221;, but as long as the law stands in it&#8217;s current form it is not even worth thinking about those possibilites.</p>
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		<title>By: tetridae</title>
		<link>/another-argument-against-the-artist-must-get-paid-nonsense-140720/#comment-1233075</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tetridae]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2014 22:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://torrentfreak.com/?p=91286#comment-1233075</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The reason why you should show what you can do is so you can get fans who find a value in what you do. Then the fans can pay you to do what you do so you can spend more time doing what you do.

Hint: check out patreon.com  It is a way for creators to reach out to fans and get supported for each new piece or by the month.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason why you should show what you can do is so you can get fans who find a value in what you do. Then the fans can pay you to do what you do so you can spend more time doing what you do.</p>
<p>Hint: check out patreon.com  It is a way for creators to reach out to fans and get supported for each new piece or by the month.</p>
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