Oh well, the song is s**t anyway. Hopefully the rest of the albums better

For brevity I’ll try to keep the following as simple as possible;

How is it that TF can call on bittorrent site insiders for information on users for the purposes of initiating a private investigation?

Which BitTorrent site is storing initial seed information and for what purpose?

…

I’d be surprised if you didn’t recognise some concerning implications surrounding these questions.

Bill Wilkins, CEO
Melted Metal Web Radio
http://www.meltedmetal.com/

mate im referring to a mod at demonoid who abuse thier power
power corrupt all, corrupt obsolutely

shit mate im referring to a mod at demonoid who abuse thier power
power corrupt all, corrupt obsolutely

first of all since you state in your above mentioned reply “it’s about your users. ” let me restate the content of my usual disclaimer: I’m not a spokesperson for any website. All I say or do publicly under my handle kdsde I do in my capacity as an interested netizen that obviously infringes copyrights like many others too and NOT on behalf of TPB, its owners or any other website!

second, I find it insulting that you claim you know what I like to believe.

Unless you are the operator of the little marcian chip in my brain you certainly can not know anything about my believes.
You claiming otherwise is very arrogant I think.

Regarding the substance of your reply:

I can absolutely not see any insolence in the fact that I mention some basic design facts about the bittorrent system/protocol and what someone that want to use it to do stuff that is currently deemed illegal should observe as prerequesite before starting his “pirate career”.
If you were already aware of the “flaws” in BT and the stuff I mentioned, then excuse that I repeated something you alreay knew!

For one thing (other then you) do I know nothing about your believes or your knowledge regarding specific topics.
So If you are one of those strange people that consider it insulting or think it borders on insolence when someone repeatedly tells them something they already know, then your feelings are simply misplaced.
For another thing even if I had positive knowledge about your state of experience/knowledge regarding BT, I a) never consider the repeating of Information as a subtextual insult to the intelligence or learning capability of the persons I speak too (teachers have a habit to repeat stuff over and over again, so excuse me) and b) I wrote my answer not only with you as reciever in mind but every other guy that reads the comments here that might not be aware of the flaws of BT so far too.

You wrote:
“What happened here between TorrentFreak and [unnamed website] was an abuse of power made able by an unnecessary data retention policy.”
How do you come to that conclusion?
First of all, Ernesto wrote “With some help of a user in the community, we tracked down some of the initial seeders of the torrent. A BitTorrent site insider was kind enough to help us out, because BitTorrent is not supposed to be “abused” like this, and confirmed that the IP of one of the early seeders did indeed belong to the person who uploaded the torrent file.”

I don’t see any “abuse of power” here: I (in my capability as a pirate, not as MOD of a torrentsite using MODtools) can for example run an RSS feed on new uploads that my Client will automaticly fetch. Voila, I get the IP of the first seeder served on a silver plate from the tracker right the moment the torrent becomes public. Telling god and the world this infos would be “abuse of power” in what way? Btw, antip2p outfits operate exactly the same way. They call this fancy “early leak detection”.
You have any information that Ernesto got his data in any other way then described right now?

you further wrote:
“Authorities can do exactly the same thing with your data against anyone, why hand it to them on a plate?

This is just my opinion. Do what you want to do, of course. I just know that if I were in the position of operating an equivalent public service I like to think I would be taking seriously the privacy of the userbase, above and beyond that of my own desires.”

What I read in the first sentence framed as a question is that you imply that someone is handing authorities data on a plate.
Can you backup that “accusation” or do you just want to spread FUD?!
(Of course if you were refering to someones ISP here and not to “[unnamed website]” then you are right of course and not a FUD spreader. And I excuse myself for accusing you of being one!)

With your following sentences about your knowledge I read from them that you want to imply that someone that is operating a tracker does NOT take the privacy of the userbase seriously!

As said I’m not a spokesperson for any tracker, but what I know from publicly know stuff is that for example the biggest tracker TPB had all their servers stolen by police some time ago now, and NOT one of the users seems to have gotten in trouble with police as a result of that “server leak”. So I guess it is safe to beleive what the owners of TPB stated that they do not have logs of uploaders.
What I on the other hand know from a “semi private” Tracker named oink is that uploaders got in trouble after the server was leaked into police hands.
Now as pointed out earlier such an incident must NOT mean that they had logs and that there was something going on that you like to call “abuse of power”. It could simply mean that the BPI did exactly what everybody can do in the BT system namely grabbing the IP of the first uploader from the freely touted out swarm infos!

But given your other statements regarding “exploiting their ignorance”, “useful idiots” and the fact that you don’t particularly agree with one of the core advises that scorekeeper gave the readers of these comments, I guess it is safe to say you just wanted to spread FUD or just besmirch “[unnamed website]” with your posts.

You know some of what you’re talking about. Enough to make yourself dangerous, especially to yourself.

AS TO THIS NEXT COMMENT, HOWEVER YOUR HEAD IS SO FAR UP YOUR ASS, YOU ARE ABLE TO ENJOY AN UP CLOSE VIEW OF LAST NIGHT’S DINNER.

_______________________

@ #47 : Whether those logs are good as evidence or not is another matter, but with enough cash they can at least make you spend a whole lot of time on defending yourself and trying to get your lawyer costs back. Mission accomplished.

______________________

KEEP FEEDING YOURSELF ALL THE FEEL GOOD PROPAGANDA YOU WANT.

I really get a chuckle over how many torrent users think the law, the facts, and the system will continue to protect them. Hahaaha.

First, as far as my own personal interests are concerned, since your lawyer wont be a public defender, and your legal trouble won’t be taken out of my taxes, that ends any reason I have to care about what you do.

Second, NO, IT IS NOT “ANOTHER MATTER”. Given your habits, you should take about 1 hour of your remaining time on earth to review what constitutes admissible evidence. Business records kept in the course of normal business affairs are used at trial every day. This is an evidentiary rule applied in any jurisdiction using US law.

All a half-ass trial lawyer needs to do is lay an evidentiary foundation. If you want an idea how that will happen, go review the court’s ruling against Google/
Yahoo, and see for yourself. Logs
are discoverable, and once they are turned over, bye bye to all privacy.
You’ll get to try to win the Jammie Thomas Sweepstakes yourself!

Third, you wont get your lawyer’s fees back. Do you actually expect to show, once your data is revealed by logs, that the case against you is in BAD FAITH? That’s the standard
you are up against. Harsh, but there it is.

Fourth, you aren’t any more secure than your weakest link, and the weak link you have, is you have to log on to use the internet. Never
mind the soon-to-be squealers who, begging for leniency, will turn over their own torrent evidence during plea negotiations. Or as soon as the court puts a contempt order in front of their face.

Fifth, in general, disruptive behavior gets about a decade of mostly FREE lunch on the law. It takes that much time for the law to catch up and weave itself into a position of trustworthy enforcement.
To date, primitive defenses have hung up content owners. Courts are hesitant to crack down on abuses of new technology, until the legal community feels that enough warning and notice has circulated. In the years ahead, 2008 will be viewed as the turning point in this framework.

You guys just don’t believe it, yet.
And really, why should you? One thing about getting away with something for so long. You become convinced you’ll never get caught.

Whether that’s a safe assumption going forward, you’ll have to decide for yourself.

Cut to the chase. The prosecutions being planned have a far different degree of accuracy than anything you’ve seen to date. If you think content owners are just going to let the copyright mayhem continue, well then, as I said before, KEEP FEEDING YOURSELF ALL THE FEEL GOOD PROPAGANDA YOU WANT.

I’ll be back at this site, same time next summer, and we’ll enjoy a little more bonding then. Or maybe not, as you may be court-barred from getting online ever again. The ISPs are not going to eat the costs of liabilities for infringement. Because of the stakes at play, the whole movement ahead has already been planned and plotted.

I guess to some, that makes me a manipulative idiot. By all means, enjoy that accusation. It wont help get you out of trouble, but it may provide some level of comfort as you carry on with illegal behavior.

Really appreciate your post.

First thing is I totally agree with much of what you wrote. I too am well aware net services can and often do log a lot of information about usage and that the only person I can ever rely on to protect my own interests is me.

The only part I don’t particularly agree with is: “If what you do on a website can land you in hot water and you like your water cold, don’t do it.” as to me you’re suggesting never utilising any service whose use could potentially come around to haunt you at a future date. It need not necessarily be related to uploading metadata relating to copyrighted works via file-sharing services, it could as much be the visiting of politically sensitive websites, or use of any ‘grey area’ site or service (eg. wikileaks) with a potential to attract a hostile response from opposing interests. I would think it prudent for such particularly sensitive services to exercise a reasonable degree of responsibility for the protection of its users interests as weighed against self. I don’t believe it’s fair to expect users have a level of knowledge and understanding of the potential implications of their actions as an excuse to abdicate responsibility for operating on their behalf.

I’m pretty tech savvy myself so I know much of this. I know many of the implications. But I think it’s an irresponsible attitude for torrent websites to expect the average user to understand, and it’s those users that make these services what they are. They should look out for them than exploit their ignorance, or are they just to be seen as useful idiots who should probably wise up?

@kdsde

Drop the insolence. I know you’d like to believe I’m just some punk little kid who knows fuck-all, but you’d be wrong. This isn’t about me, it’s about your users. This is about torrent websites demonstrating sound principles in the way that they operate. I do not see that you have a need than self-serving interest to retain such data on users, or if you believe that you do then I’d like to hear why and for what you would use it for than acts as demonstrated here. What happened here between TorrentFreak and [unnamed website] was an abuse of power made able by an unnecessary data retention policy. Authorities can do exactly the same thing with your data against anyone, why hand it to them on a plate?

This is just my opinion. Do what you want to do, of course. I just know that if I were in the position of operating an equivalent public service I like to think I would be taking seriously the privacy of the userbase, above and beyond that of my own desires.

As for “Pirate” as a nickname. Maybe it’s true that I’d just like to think I’m a 31337 pirat0r? Or, maybe, not having a nickname to hand before posting, I’d ponder utilisation of the nick “Pirate” as an expression of which side I fall in an effort to preempt any calls of being a shill, or anti-p2p, or…? But you believe what you want. For the record I’m nothing more than a casual file-sharer with an interest in the subject.

ha-ha-ha.

#97 already said what is essential to know about logging of IP data.

You note that:
“[...]I’m not so sure such information go down so well for endusers though if, say, one’s hardware were ever to be confiscated by the authorities.”

Please make yourself aware that the Bittorrent technology was NOT designed with designgoals in mind for doing illegal things like copyrightinfringement.
The BT system spits out your IP to god and the world and everybody that can download a dot-torrent file.
So making sure that “they” will get no evidence from your harddrive is a “must do” when you intend to be a pirate!
google “true crypt” as a minimum before starting/continuing your career as pirate of the internets.

if thats the case, its just another reason that artists should not even bother with record companies anymore. they are just going to get treated like shit.

The standard config of pretty much every HTTP server is to log every access and every IP. The easiest way to get the webserver set up is not to fiddle with the default settings or, hell, rotating logs. The easiest way to get some pretty graphed usage-statistics is to either use Google Analytics or run webalizer or some such on a logfile. This can be done incrementally, but even if you do it daily, why take the risk and delete noneaggregated logs right after ? Maybe webalizer broke and you want to fix it two days later. Better to keep the logs for a few days.

A few days become a few weeks (monthly stats rock !) become a few years (“I have enough hdd space, it’s zipped anyway !” or the good ole “Whoops, the daily/weekly/monthly backup includes logs !”). I doubt Google ever deletes any logs of anything, ever. And if they do, I doubt they’ll actually be gone straight away … Just space flagged for reusability. Maybe it won’t be reused.

If what you do on a website can land you in hot water and you like your water cold, don’t do it.

Hell, “the TRUTH” is a blowhard manipulatie idiot, but he has a point in that BitTorrent is not anonymous, has not been designed to be anonymous, and will not be anonymous. As such anything you do on .torrent is conceivably loggable. Whether those logs are good as evidence or not is another matter, but with enough cash they can at least make you spend a whole lot of time on defending yourself and trying to get your lawyer costs back. Mission accomplished.

As to whether a torrent website SHOULD log IPs … Most of them seem to think they are invincible and log forever. Most “private trackers” have IPs as one of their integral auth-tokens and those are saved forever (for stats, etc. … Some of them even nicely save all the torrents you downloaded, all torrents their tracker got a request for from you, how often, how much your client claimed it transferred, etc. Ad infinitum. After all, the bad stuff only happens to other people’s sites …)

No, they shouldn’t log IPs. And I’d argue the point that you do NOT need IPs tied to specific actions saved at all beyond the duration of the connection, even for administrative measures (you can still firewall out IPs and netblocks without a direct record of whether they downloaded X, Y, or Z, or uploaded A, B, or C; and if you’re good, you will be able to use timed blocks that automatically and without any residue remove blocks after a cooldown period. However, all of this requires some thinking and planning. This is not good for the “I want it, and I want it NOW” crowd — many tracker operators belong to that group.

But to be fair, the manager might have done it without actually telling them.

Being a criminal doesn’t make you dishonest at all, you say they go hand in hand, they don’t, you have a very black and white view of life, like all your points I might add.

“I HAVE NEWS FOR YOU. HONEST BEHAVIOR ALSO PUTS PEOPLE IN JOBS. MORALLY, WHAT DO YOU PREFER?”

care to give an example on a mass level? because simply if all crime stopped tomorrow you’d have an entire police force out of work, in the UK there’s high unemployment as it is what do you do with them? it becomes even more a paradox when you realise it’s the unemployed that’s likely to steal to make a wage.

As for ‘Stealing for Nothing’ what I said was I WOULDN’T PAY WHAT THEY ASK, before I could download it I enjoied music but didn’t buy it I was a younger teen who couldn’t afford it, If it really comes to it I’ll go back to that way… so how they lost out really? there prices aren’t competitive there criminal.

Maybe I’ll tell that one in court, I couldn’t give a crap. if you think downloading and stealing is wrong why are you here then?

“lieing is a terrible thing in all aspects.”

STEALING MUSIC BY CLOAKED AND DECEPTIVE TACTICS IS THE SAME MORAL FAULT AS LYING.

YOU WANT TO COMMAND THAT OTHERS LIVE BY A MORAL CODE, START WITH LOOKING IN THE MIRROR.

“Crime etc puts people in jobs…”

I HAVE NEWS FOR YOU. HONEST BEHAVIOR ALSO PUTS PEOPLE IN JOBS. MORALLY, WHAT DO YOU PREFER?

“Stealing a product is fair game, stealing a person’s diginity is wrong, lieing is stealing a person’s dignity in my eyes.”

YOUR EYES ARE TRAINED TO IGNORE THE LACK OF MORALITY IN YOUR JUSTIFICATIONS.

“Filesharing steals nothing I have around 100 albums sitting around, I counted the other day I’d only buy around 5 of them at the price of £10 the rest i probably wouldn’t even at £5.”

IF YOU TOOK SOMEONE’S MUSIC WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION, IT IS STEALING. THE FACT YOU DONT VALUE THE COST OF IT, DOESN’T ELIMINATE THE FACT THAT YOU STOLE IT.
IT JUST MEANS THAT YOU STOLE SOMETHING AND WERE IMMORAL. WHETHER THAT BOTHERS YOU, DETERMINES YOUR MORAL CHARACTER.

IF YOU DONT VALUE IT, WHY DID YOU STEAL IT?

IF YOU STOLE SOMETHING YOU DONT REALLY VALUE, ARE YOU PREPARED TO FEEL STUPID WHEN THE LAWSUIT COMES DOWN ON YOU?

WHAT PART OF YOUR ANSWER ESCAPES SUCH STUPIDITY? IF YOU ARE GOING TO STEAL, AT LEAST STEAL SOMETHING YOU VALUE.

THE ONLY LOGICAL ANSWER YOU CAN GIVE TO THAT ARGUMENT IS THAT “WELL, I WASN’T AT RISK, BECAUSE SO FEW PEOPLE ARE CAUGHT”

OK, well the rules of enforcement are about to change, and your conduct for the past 3 years will be actionable at law. You realize, the risk
ratio is about to explode, and not IN YOUR FAVOR.

_________________________________

“l I wouldn’t lie in a court of law but while I’m under investigation I still have, ‘The right to remain silent’. it’s a pretty standard piece you’ve heard before right?”

IF YOU MEAN, HAVE I SEEN PEOPLE CONVICTED WHEN THE EVIDENCE SHOWS ME WHAT THEY DID?

THE ANSWER IS YES.

YOU WANT TO TAKE CHANCES ON HALF-BAKED IDEAS ABOUT WHAT WORKS WHEN YOU REALLY GET TO COURT, BY ALL MEANS, YOU HAV E THE RIGHT TO DO THAT. BUT OF COURSE, REMAINING SILENT IS ONLY SMART WHEN THE ALTERNATIVE IS WORSE, SUCH AS
IF YOU TALK, YOU ARE EITHER GOI(NG TO LIE OR ADMIT WRONGDOING.

DO YOU THINK JURIES DONT DELIBERATE ON THAT SAME BASIS? YOU”VE NEVER BEEN IN A JURY CASE BEFORE.

If Jammie Thomas had taken that tactic, do you think the jury would have ruled in her favor?

No. The jury would probably concluded,”If she had a good reason for all those files that she was caught with, she would have told us.”

so you want BC management to admit what they did, and be upfront about it,

while you worship cloaked and concealed file traders who dont own up via TRUTHFUL identity to what they are doing?

what kind of double standard world do you want to live in? only the kind that benefits you?

the power that ISPs have to turn your world into one of pain is real, and it is a power that is fast approaching reality.

FWIW, I hate the labels more than most of you ever could – for personal reasons that run deeper than that they had the gall to sell lame music at $20 a cd in some stores. Or release music that is of little value. They rip off artists, and they add little to culture anymore. They have ruined much of what used to be cool about music.

But I cant justify that as an excuse to steal.

And neither, alas, do the courts. Which is why you find the Jammie Thomases of this world lying her ass off when caught. And the lawyers who are out there “advocating” against copyright infringement, are getting paid.

By the way, who here knows who John Barlow is, and how did he obtain his wealth?

Has anyone ever asked John why he doesn’t refund and return, or donate to charity, all the money he was paid by major labels?

Buckcherry is a Grammy-nominated Los Angeles, California hard rock band formed in 1995….

…and had a pretty successful previous album in 2006 with “15″, which had two top 10 hits.

They don’t need your press, but you gave it to them anyway.

But then, what kind of person would you expect would manage such a crap band, with such a clever take on Chuck Berry, whose music always left me puking anyhow, but Buck’s is far worse.

Ok, here’s a simple fact lieing is a terrible thing in all aspects. Crime etc puts people in jobs…

A man makes a software Virus, other man makes Anti-Virus software.

Man robs wear house, other man is hired as a security guard.

note none of those involved violence.

Stealing a product is fair game, stealing a person’s diginity is wrong, lieing is stealing a person’s dignity in my eyes.

Filesharing steals nothing I have around 100 albums sitting around, I counted the other day I’d only buy around 5 of them at the price of £10 the rest i probably wouldn’t even at £5.

—-

“Although I’d hold off and try to get them to reveal the evidence on what i’ve actually done first but still”

Well I wouldn’t lie in a court of law but while I’m under investigation I still have, ‘The right to remain silent’. it’s a pretty standard piece you’ve heard before right?

What sucks with Buckcherry is, obviously, that they issued an anti-piracy quote in a press release after leaking the track themselves.

This is a very different kind of hypocrisy than what 63/”the truth” (oh PLEASE) is trying to allege. If you think filesharing is wrong, great. It doesn’t make this Buckcherry stunt any LESS wrong.

BTW it is amazing that Buckcherry are still signed after a batch of tanked albums and the cheesy Calvin Klein ad the singer did.

It doesn’t matter what laws are created and what actions are taken, you cannot roll back to a time where personal computers don’t exist as they do now. It wouldn’t even matter that much if you dismantled the entire Internet so long as the computers remain. And by ‘computers’ you should be thinking broader than just desktop PCs as computers are in a great many devices these days.

Laws are nothing without the power to enforce them and humans, as many species, are selfishly motivated. If you can find a way to control the technology then you might have a chance (good luck with that).

You’d really like to believe that what you think is the TRUTH as that’s where you stand to gain the most. Is money a primary motive by anychance? ;)

How long will it take you to remove your head from the avalanche of sand that covers it presently?

Come back here a year from now, and discuss.

Meanwhile, dont say you weren’t warned. It is people like you who will be crying the loudest.

If I were a lawyer interested in this, I’d start running ads:

“I can defend your infringement case, and help you with bankruptcy, all for $15,000 upfront.”

Which, isn’t a bad idea now, is it?

the TRUTH

The statute of limitations runs 3 years. That means anything you’ve
shared, dating back to – let’s say 2007 – you are wide open, very WIDE OPEN.

“The general rule is that the statute of limitations starts from the date of the last infringing act. However, the courts are divided as to how this applies. Some courts hold that you can recover your damages for the entirety of the infringement so long as a lawsuit is filed within 3 years of the last infringing act; others limit damages to those acts which occurred within the three years leading up to the lawsuit.

What constitutes an infringing act may also vary. For example, if you author a magazine article published on July 1, 1998, and on September 30, 1998 somebody directly copies the article without your permission, and puts it in a book manuscript as her own. Assume the book is released June 1, 1999, and is then reprinted in a second edition (with your material unchanged) on December 15, 2000. Courts might come to different conclusions in deciding whether the infringement occurred September 30, 1998, June 1, 1999 or December 15, 2000 — or if the book remains on the market, even later.”

Why should you care today? Easy.

There is a trace system in operation, and the ISPs are using it to gather evidence.

You dont know this? Well, ask yourself. Do you think that the ISPs want to remain in the middle and mix any more, and take the chance that the courts will soon shift the value of theft to them?

No, you better believe it, that they have better ideas how to spend the billions that would cost them.

If you know anyone who works at a decision making level in enforcement and compliance for an ISP, see if they would DENY this statement. If they do, get back to me. I’ll give $200 to the first person who can give me a confirming name and contact. Dont worry, I am not in enforcement, and dont give a shit. It’s just that I happen to value the truth, and what that means for the future.

People who are stealing now, be advised.

The fuck-ass RIAA (and it is fuck ass, but it will have even more law on its side next year) will get going, and start a mass sweep.

But this time, it will consist of ALL BITE AND HARD BITE AT THAT.

No more bark, no more grandma’s. Nope, thanks to the ISPs caving in like the two face disloyal (and self interested) fuckers they are, the RIAA is about to find out who is trading what. See the Youtube decision? That’s the first punch in a fight that the RIAA is training to bring to your lap.

So, ask this question. If all ZERO PAID did was share 200 songs, is your share total bigger than that?

Do you like the idea of a $15,000 legal bill, and damages that will force you to declare bankruptcy?

the TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH.