That’s not really an independent movie though ;)[/quote]

Good point raised by u. i would say YES.

Sometimes what’s right isn’t as important as what’s profitable.
– Trey Parker and Matt Stone

Person break, Lost, Heroes, i never knew about these before.

BITTorrent really helped them, now everyone knows all around the world about Heros/Person break Series!

Shit, they get free advertise !
Torrentsites paying for dedicated servers and advertising their shits for free and still they are not happy ! ! ![/quote]
So now that you know about them you’ve obviously bought the DVD boxsets or lobbied your local television stations to air these shows? Because if not, it doesn’t matter if you know about them or not – the producers, writers, actors still does not make any money from the fact you ‘know about it’.[/quote]

Good point.

Passive or no, are you part of the solution or part of the problem? Not one person that reads this site can sit on the middle ground. It’s one or the other, this is about ethical progress and development, not smokescreen piracy.

Hear, Hear!

Fully 80% of what I know has been sinc the advent of the web. That has accelerated exponetially since torrents increased the disemination of information. Awesome.

And when it is the public the depreciates the artist and art, it is the artist that will eventually say screw it, I will not suffer while others profit from my efforts. And then the masses cry WHY IS IT ALL CRAP? Why is Hollywood making crap.

The seller is doomed to catering to the consumer only if that seller has weak marketing skills. Marketing, in brutally realistic terms, is the art of manipulation and can often have nothing to do with the true intent or nature what is being sold. For better or worse, that’s how it works in this day and age.

The Rob Zombie thing sadly is happening more often than ever before, and there are people in the torrenting community that are claiming its a good thing (it happened with a Dungeons & Dragons film too, and there have been a few others). The first and only question that should ever be asked about this issue is.. how ethical is it. Answer that honestly and you never have to deal with the question of economics and demographics.

You can wax different reasons and ways to justify how art is dependent on this or that, but the basic truth is it is a necessity to human life. It nourishes the mind, and many would say the spirit too. And that kind of nourishment is as important as the nourishment of the flesh.

You can live without politicians, big cities or technology.

You cannot live without sustenance, the things that keep the mind and the body healthy and encourage growth and development.

Don’t paint a rosy ‘accept your fate cause you’re an artist and that’s your lot cause the masses rule’ picture. And don’t break this down into a world view. You’ve gone off on a very long tangent to justify what was essentially a criticism on small minded views within the torrent community that devaluate what torrents have the potential to do.

You’re focused on proving your ‘right’ to be deserving, and why it’s OKAY for you and your elk to not support the efforts of others with more than ego driven gratification.

The peasant masses said alot of things were okay at the dawn of the soviet empire. You should look it up, how many suddenly dissident artists were deported or exterminated because the ‘masses’ no longer agreed that they had the rights that their profession deserved.

And go back and look at the history of art. Artistry has been THE most revered and respected trades throughout history. And I point out revered and respected WITHOUT political or religious cohersion. Art is so powerful that governments and religions have been completely dependent on it to communicate their ideologies, and they are THE ONLY lasting effects of any religion or government.

The masses do not dictate the nature of art. It is the artist that molds and forms the culture you live in, and if you think that artists should be simpering suppliants that satisfy your insignificant, disrespectful hungers… think of a world where art is restricted to those that do pay their respects, and those that do not are forcefully rejected. Think of what your life would be like to not have access to any of the things.

Make no mistake that artists won’t kow tow to the ignorant masses, and know that the non-artists that do support the creative community are as greatly valued by artists as they are of the artists’ creations. The masses don’t contribute as is, you have everything to lose while we are already dealing with the difficult situation that you propose MIGHT happen.

The true cynicism is in your inability to acknowledge the value of others and give them their dues because you feel you and your perception of humanity is beyond the realm of paying for THAT commodity. You don’t contribute anything positive by your actions, and even further your negative attitude and actions by pointing and crying cynic when faced with someone who isn’t going to sugar coat a serious issue because you yourself don’t take it seriously. It doesn’t involve you except as a voyuer, a spectator. You don’t really care because you’re comfortable with the belief that you are in control, it won’t ever have any impact on your life.

I confidently speak on behalf of every artist, musician, filmmaker, writer, etc. out there. We don’t care what you believe. We care about what is impacting our lives right now and we aren’t going to cater to your comfortable world view just because you think it’s harsh or cynical. We are not specactors in all of this, we’re active participants, and I’ll end this thread by giving a heartfelt thank you to all those out there that I know DO support artists, and especially in the torrent community that want to see torrenting evolve into something more, but not at the expense of the authors whose content is being greatfully shared and absorbed.

I for one, have alot of work to get back to. So, thread terminated. :-)

But the Halloween incident was just wrong, I don’t care how anyone tries to justify it. Some asshole violated their workspace. Zombie’s workspace, the editor, the actors.. everyone that put their blood sweat and tears into making that film only to have some dumb ass invade their workspace while they’re focused on getting the thing done to their standards. Consider how much different that is from corporate espionage? He just threw it at the public instead of selling it… great he’s a hero for not being a profiteer.

Ever stop to think how that impacts on the people he stole it from?

Of course not, who cares right? It’s their duty to entertain you no matter what.

Stats don’t mean anything either. You can’t reduce word of mouth or usage to numbers. Are there 5 billion people that could stomach the brutality of Rob’s horror films. There ain’t 5 million let alone billion. And horror movies get more repeat viewers at the cinema than most other genres, so that shrinks those faceless stats even more.

More people use the internet at public libraries than is often realised. And then you have friends of university students using their campus connection, people that have a work connection but not at home. And then you have people that don’t give a damn because they have enough friends online that will tell them what they know anyway which makes them connected to the thread of information by default. So word of mouth from the internet was a significant social development in the 1997. It was ‘amazing’. In 2007 it’s as common place as newspapers (and yes, there are places in the world that are as deprived of newspapers as they are of computers and electricity).

It certainly does suck that we are in the 21st century, we have surpassed the imaginations of early sci-fi visions of what we’d have developed, while meeting others exactly as imagined… and yet there are places around the world, even in your own backyard, that are practically medieval in how restricted and difficult it is to have access to “stuff” to educate oneself, to enrich oneself. Like libraries being limited. But that’s no excuse to give to the masses at the expense of the individual. The lesser of two evils will be the argument? It’s easy to think in broad, global humanitarian terms when you’re not struggling to get by.

Would you consider us heartless to not throw even a few coins to fund raising good cause beggers in the mall? Some artists depend on every penny they have to get by day to day. Some? Make that MOST.

The luxury of the consumer to criticise from their armchairs. They often claim we artists have the luxury to pursue our dreams, when the truth is we just had the balls to be true to ourselves and not give in to peer pressure and comfortable, security padded failure. And it eats these people up inside so they have to devaluate what the content creators are worth by emphasising that THE WORLD DESERVES IT.

Give poor folk entertainment for free.. give artists board, food, and equipment for free. That sounds about fair. And there are many artists who would gladly settle for that (I know quite a few that would). The more prolific among us will want alot more, and you’ll undoubtedly criticise them for being greedy when you yourself absorb everything they create with gluttonous intent.

Torrents are about as miraculous as libraries. You can violate a library, or you can value it. What we have here is basically an unofficial, unauthorised library. Spreading “the word” is great for political documentaries and things. If anything that is one of the most powerful elements to the torrent community. But like ‘me’ commented above.. merely knowing about it doesn’t put money in the pockets of the producers, writers, directors, etc. Spreading the word is nice, but if you think it’s enough, then you’re wrong.

Download games? Great… PC games still can be glitchy and it is worthwhile making sure you can get something to work if you’re going to shell out a decent amount of cash on a new release. Movies?…. you’ll only pay for the things you like, your sampling of things you don’t doesn’t deserve any recompense to the creators? That kinda sucks, but at least you’re buying the stuff you dig. Music? The only truly justifiably ‘free’ stuff is all the things you can’t get anymore. Discontinued or long lost demo tapes, I don’t think anyone would argue against that. But if you’re downloading music and that’s it.. you don’t go and pay that band by buying a concert ticket, or a t-shirt or whatever.. then why should any of them keep doing what they’re doing. Would you if someone decided to say “kudos” for the work you do, but pretty sentiment is all you’ll have in your pocketbook?

I’ll say it again. I’m not the only one in the torrent community OR HERE reading TorrentFreak (which is a damn good site for the community) that considers knee-jerk freebie’ers as damaging the integrity of the community and holding back the potential of torrents. Stop playing l33t in the kiddy pool and get over your ego. Torrenting should NOT be a special ‘in’ club, it should be a valuable resource that IS VALUED by those that use it. Maintaining a 1:1 share ratio doesn’t qualify for what I just said (however important that seed ethic may be)

Person break, Lost, Heroes, i never knew about these before.

BITTorrent really helped them, now everyone knows all around the world about Heros/Person break Series!

Shit, they get free advertise !
Torrentsites paying for dedicated servers and advertising their shits for free and still they are not happy ! ! ![/quote]
So now that you know about them you’ve obviously bought the DVD boxsets or lobbied your local television stations to air these shows? Because if not, it doesn’t matter if you know about them or not – the producers, writers, actors still does not make any money from the fact you ‘know about it’.

But that peasant mentality again. EVERYONE there must be evil huh? That’s the same train of thought that says Hollywood produces nothing but crap, which isn’t true. Look at French cinema.. they make some really really good films, but if you’re not an indie poser, you’ll know they also make some really really bad ones too. Just like Hollywood, the onus is on the public to not go see the endless shovelings of toilet humour movies.

For those that pay attention to the music industry, you may have heard Iron Maiden has just signed the first umbrella licensing deal in the industry (with EMI). That means EMI now gets a cut from everything, marchandising, touring profits, everything! That’s bad news for younger bands, but it’s going to be a good thing for Iron Maiden on a business management level. They aren’t getting screwed, but the repercussions that follow won’t be good. So what does that mean?

It means this “CORPORATE ENEMY” perception is going to encourage the unscrupulous top dogs to take advantage some more.

Pointing your finger and saying “FAT CAT” doesn’t help anyone or anything, just soothes your own ego about what you’re downloading and what little or northing you’re giving back. It’s time to start making constructive suggestions (at the very least) instead of repeating the same ole same ole. Bitching about the ‘suits’ isn’t new, it is a decades old fashion trend in both film and music. To give you a specific number on that, there is at least 50 solid years of that kind of whining sub-culture that has gone on. Look at what it has achieved.

Your reference to the french revolution is another bad example. A small few fops and royalty died.. millions of peasants suffered far worse a fate in the ensuing failure of that revolution… and it was a failure, both politically and philosophically.

hehehe, hell, look at where the peasant revolution put Russia when the iron curtain finally fell. That’s what happens when peasants are appeased and their conspiracy paranoias are gratified.[/quote]
Au contrare! Bittorent communities contribute more than you think. Think more along the lines of a Shouter. Imagine if you give that shouter a Megaphone. He would gain more attention. I would like to think art is similar in that it has a message. The more people who know that message the more successful it is. So no I do not care if there are fat cats in charge. Only that they give us good art/messages. Torrent users are mere messengers to those who do not have the want to download. Little do you know but there are around 8 billion people on this planet. Only a few hundred million people have internet. and only half of them even think about downloading torrents (or even heard of such a magnificent thing). Now if those hundreds of millions of people could only pass on their knowledge of their downloads? So if you wish to call this miracle a Faust then go fuck yourself!

No.[/quote]
I agree. But 4400? Ew! I would rather watch paint dry. Poor taste. Heroes is more derived from X-men and other comic books. 4400 started fine but it was torn apart by mediocrity.

But that peasant mentality again. EVERYONE there must be evil huh? That’s the same train of thought that says Hollywood produces nothing but crap, which isn’t true. Look at French cinema.. they make some really really good films, but if you’re not an indie poser, you’ll know they also make some really really bad ones too. Just like Hollywood, the onus is on the public to not go see the endless shovelings of toilet humour movies.

For those that pay attention to the music industry, you may have heard Iron Maiden has just signed the first umbrella licensing deal in the industry (with EMI). That means EMI now gets a cut from everything, marchandising, touring profits, everything! That’s bad news for younger bands, but it’s going to be a good thing for Iron Maiden on a business management level. They aren’t getting screwed, but the repercussions that follow won’t be good. So what does that mean?

It means this “CORPORATE ENEMY” perception is going to encourage the unscrupulous top dogs to take advantage some more.

Pointing your finger and saying “FAT CAT” doesn’t help anyone or anything, just soothes your own ego about what you’re downloading and what little or northing you’re giving back. It’s time to start making constructive suggestions (at the very least) instead of repeating the same ole same ole. Bitching about the ‘suits’ isn’t new, it is a decades old fashion trend in both film and music. To give you a specific number on that, there is at least 50 solid years of that kind of whining sub-culture that has gone on. Look at what it has achieved.

Your reference to the french revolution is another bad example. A small few fops and royalty died.. millions of peasants suffered far worse a fate in the ensuing failure of that revolution… and it was a failure, both politically and philosophically.

hehehe, hell, look at where the peasant revolution put Russia when the iron curtain finally fell. That’s what happens when peasants are appeased and their conspiracy paranoias are gratified.

Sounds like the King Louis XVI. He got his head chopped off and I hope in repetition of history that their end is no better.

Please there’s no need for all these swear words to state your points. Everyone here is an individual, and I promise you personally that we do not go to any kind of chanting ceremony and we don’t secretly have a top secret meeting in the hills of France where we plot conspiracies against you.

Jokes aside, respectfully, lets keep this discussion mature.

That’s quite the peasant mentality. Don’t forget their are literally 10′s of thousands of actors and ‘other’ film related jobs of people struggling to get by (take note of the writer’s strike). Some of those people do deserve big wads of cash, but regardless of what they deserve, you’re not just attacking the big stars you hate. And the Angelina’s of the industry aren’t big because of their films, but the parasitic tabloid industry.

——————
>> Why some people are being
>> paid so much for doing nothing
>> Extraordinary? Why the doctors
>> who save lives don’t get more?
>> Yeah I know, because the life is
>> not always fair. Well, if life’s >> not fair, I don’t wanna be fair,
>> either.
——————–

Speaking of jobs that are important, genuine life saving medicine is in the minority, much of it is an industry that encourages dependence on their medicinal system so to speak, an industry that encourages ‘customers’ to have a reason to come back. Doctors DO get paid a shit load. A better example is a job that does GIVES LIFE. Farmers are getting fucked over and the quality of un-modified crops (both meat and vegetable) continues to go down… but how often have you heard anyone saying they won’t pay for a substandard food product.. they’d rather go hungry than support the rape of farmers that don’t bow down to corporate pressure, and their land?

The whole torrent technology is great, but too many people keep taking it to peasant extremes to justify why things should be free. You’re playing satanist to the entrenched corporate zealotry. And what does that mean in the end? You’re both the same, and that’s why things are still struggling to change. Get rid of this peasant mentality and support quality for being quality, not for being ‘indie’ or anti-corporate, and not by saying it should be free. But because it deserves a voice, and never forget the creators of quality entertainment (and entertainment IS modern culture in its entirety, make no mistake) need to pay their bills and eat… and you fuckin know the makers of quality deserve more than just that because they enrich the non-creative’s lives.

Fuck anyone that still sells the idea that making money from art is bad or somehow lacking in integrity. Fuck you and your peasant mentality, you’re the kind of hypocrites that that support everyday corporate structures and then bitch and moan when you see it behind ‘art’.

I know there are people here and throughout the torrent community that agree with what I’ve just said, problem is they aren’t the loudest voice. The loudest often screams “I like shit for free and don’t really know what it’s like when someone refuses to pay me for my work.. sooo, let’s make everything FREE and fuck the poe-leece”

Fucking “rebellion” clones. Fuck you!

———–
>> So all those huge studios can go
>> to hell, they will never see my
>> money again. Oh no, not in this
>> life you fat bastards!
————–

I’ll say it again… this peasant mentality actually hurts people that matter in these industries, and hold the torrent world back in the shadow of ‘dirty’ piracy because you want to be as narrow minded as the cock blocking anti-pirates attacking the technology. Haven’t you people learnt anything from how the Napster saga was dealt with? Do you want to see torrents become dominated by adware and slimey, hypocritical corporate endorsements because the original innovators were legally fucked over?

I am a filmmaker, and I want the big dollars if I can get it, but right now I ain’t got shit. Doesn’t mean I’m going to deprive everyone else who has worked harder than your normal joe job “woe is me” twit their just rewards and prosperity. And I won’t demean an entire industry by generalising everything based on tabloid whores and a few unscrupulous executives (and no, not all of them are cunts.. some of them are trying to change the system from the inside too, remember that peasants, they have more balls and endurance than all of you bottom feeding ingreats combined).

And last word… I dig torrents, I hate peasant torrentees. Fuck you if that’s you!

http://paidandpopular.blogspot.com

We Are The Strange is also a perfect example of a film who benefited through BitTorrent.

Really enjoyed the film. Will be buying a copy for sure. Mainly because the director was more open to BT,

If.. on the other hand he was threatening to sue etc. etc. I wouldn’t pay him a cent.

ps:heres a good review…http://uk.dvd.ign.com/articles/833/833098p1.html