What can we do to help? Go watch Edwin on YouTube! A couple of million hits there could help and substantiate the popularity of the song and make the case stronger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkKxGzm98AU

See?

‘See?’?

Cool reasonable arguments seem a little different from patronizing ones, laced with ostensible obstinacy, wilful ignorance, pretence, disingenuousness, and lack of followup– do you think?
Not that I’m necessarily suggesting that of yours’. ;)

Furthermore, I doubt the industry-in-question is agreeing to disagree at this point, so there’s no argument per se. The arguments, in a sense, have come and gone, and are over.

I’m more or less “indulging you”– leveraging your posts– for the sake of the issues… if maybe with a twinge of hope that you’ll “come around”.

I mean, I do recall you suggesting or admitting in another thread to the effect that your values were fascist.

In many cases, such as perhaps in some of the above, I find heated passionate arguments preferable, Babycakes.

See? It wasn’t that hard to give a reasonable, cool argument, even if our principles are different.

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

The problem is that people think that they are entitled to a full product for nothing. The artists sure don’t get something for nothing – they have to invest time and effort creating the music.

You see, that right there is where we part ways :)

You think that the whole pie is owned by copyright owners and I disagree.

You see the whole as a commercial space and I think there are 2 more components that you are forgetting and those are the private and public spaces where no copyright owner should put a foot in. Those spaces is where mixtapes happen, where people recorded their shows to see later, passed videos to one another through tapes, disc and now the internet. Copyright owners didn’t complain before because they were oblivious to those behaviors, they thought it was small when it was not, it is part of the human culture.

I showed to you that this behavior(sharing) doesn’t compromise the ability of artists to make a living and still you argue that is morally wrong when I don’t think it is. What I do know is that it is normal and common.

Doubt?

Ask anyone if they think recording TV shows to see latte is against the law?

Ask anyone if they think it is morally wrong to record music from radio.

Why it is any different when it is done on the internet?

Ask if anyone will buy a TV that don’t let them record something with their video recorders?

Even G.W.Bush is a pirate or did you not see his iPod music list with the Beatles songs in it?

The law is not broken when even the president of a country is made a criminal by that law?

The law is not broken when authorities in public say they don’t have the resources to prosecute everyone?

The law is not broken when authorities in public say that it would be better to get just a few instead of going after everyone because it could cause more criminal behavior among the youth that probably would turn to real criminal behavior to try and come up with the money to paid statutory damages?

The law is not broken when every single person that owns equipment capable of recording anything is turned into a criminal?

Is not the people who is invading the right holders domain is the rights holders that are invading the public domain and trying to stake a claim on it.

I’m arguing that piracy is illegal and morally wrong…

Piracy? Or file-sharing?
If the latter, the majority here are arguing that it’s not, or at least should not be, and giving powerful reasons in support– some, if not most– if not all– of which are apparently lost on you.

I’m not arguing something that can be supported by facts.

That sounds like religion. Certainly you wouldn’t be arguing for blood-letting to cure some ailments by now would you?

My previous post attempts to suggest some fundamentals that we would do well to consider as a lense through which to view file-sharing and the revolution that is the Internet/digital communications.

Speaking of revolutions, some– perhaps you, too– seem to argue as though they don’t exist/never happened/aren’t happening, or as though they are unaware of the SHIFTS/implications/etc. that they bring with them.
Consider the Printing Press or Nuclear weaponry.
Consider removing your old lenses if they’re truly there, and looking viewing what’s happening with new ones. You may find you see more and/or differently.

First, where did you see written that CD sales did go up in my post?

I meant DVD sales and other music sales in general. My mistake, I need to get with the times.

Second I don’t think I need to convince anyone in the general population they are mostly already on the side of the pirates or we wouldn’t be having this conversation because piracy wouldn’t exist.

This simply isn’t true. Piracy would still exist even if the majority of the people weren’t on its side. It just coincidentally happens that most people in Canada are on your side.

There are already an estimated 60 million households in the U.S. alone that used P2P.

Last time I checked, America’s population was 300 million. How many households is that…?

It is not the general population that needs convincing is politicians.

Well, if the general public holds a strong enough opinion, won’t the politicians eventually follow…? (I know that might be a stupid question, but it’s an honest one.)

Since I will not be convincing no politician any time soon and cannot be heard by those in power, I do what millions are already doing. I disregard the industry complaints and found myself alternatives to their products and I aggressively lobby my fellow pirates to join me and partake the copyleft world together with the public domain.
You think people need millions to do music and movies?

The part about “lobbying your fellow pirates” is exactly why your industry is not progressing as quickly as you would like. You can’t lobby to just your fellow pirates, you also need to lobby to others who are not pirates.

As well, no, I don’t think people need millions to do music and movies. But what does that have to do with the debate? People can choose to go indie, and they can choose to go with the record labels. If they go with the record labels, that’s their loss, they’ve signed away all their rights.

@97 (Anonymous):

Meh, I guess you’re right. I don’t have any data to show.

But part of the problem is that I’m not arguing something that can be supported by facts. No, it’s not that the facts oppose what I’m arguing, it’s that my argument isn’t falsifiable. I’m arguing that piracy is illegal and morally wrong, not that it hurts the music industry. It’s not something that can really be quantitatively analyzed. If I were arguing that piracy hurt the record labels’ business, I’d be all for it, considering their heinous acts. But it really all boils down to whether it’s legal or not.

By all accounts, your data is probably right – music sales have gone up, and the music industry, save the record labels, is thriving. So it’s pretty evident there that piracy is not hurting the music industry to the degree that the record labels think.

(I’ve pretty much addressed nine tenths of your argument right there.)

What, then, is the problem?

The problem is that people think that they are entitled to a full product for nothing. The artists sure don’t get something for nothing – they have to invest time and effort creating the music.

If piracy really were hurting the music industry, the music industry would have folded and collapsed by now. No, it’s not about the industry. It’s about something that’s comparable to theft, even if it does “simply make a copy”.

And that’s something that simply cannot be supported by data.

@ 1
I’m not shocked anymore. I’m just disgusted with the industry.

What would happen to our species?

…

What will happen to our culture?

Problem is, repeat falsehoods enough times and some people start to believe them.
That appears part of the industry’s stratagems.
…

Information reproduces.
Cast it to the wind and it will reproduce.
We are, ourselves, in effect, “information”. We reproduce.
That’s why we are here.
Our children are our mashups, our collaborations.
…

On a slightly different tac yet again, if to yang with the first-phrase yin, one could say that we have become the industry.

Only the universe owns copyright.

Documents that are so clearly fake that even the credit company that BREIN supposedly received them from is thinking about suing their pants of, since this company makes their money by making trust worthy credit reports for companies all over the globe.

Now they have one of these copyright outfits faking documents ruining the companies good name.

Oh, forgot to POINT OUT:
“if they’re buying so many CD’s and DVD’s, why do they even feel the need to pirate stuff in the first place?”

Nice deflection there. It was YOU who was asked that question. Simply repeating it back does not constitute an answer, as you know. Are you really that CONFUSED??

It shows, once again, that you simply have NOTHING. Not a single valid answer.

But he says….
“As well, if they’re buying so many CD’s and DVD’s, why do they even feel the need to pirate stuff in the first place?”

So he virtually admits he also recognizes an inconsistency here, since he basically accepts the data presented. If he is as reasonable as he PRETENDS then he should be asking himself some big questions. Exactly how do you account for “rampant mass piracy” alongside continued growth and sales?

A reasoned mind would pay more heed to the INDEPENDENT studies, of which there are many, by highly credible sources (far more credible than the RIAA), instead of swallowing unquestioned those from the industry. A reasoned mind would pay more heed to history which shows a clear resistance, and attempt to stifle, every single new technology to affect the music industry for the last 50 years, in order to obstruct and prevent progress and inovation.

But no, he does not question or reevaluate, as an unbiased, reasoned mind would. He resorts to the same weak argument: you are wrong. Reasoned? Don’t make me laugh. When confronted with such inconsistencies you simply fall back on bigotry.

So COME ON ReasonedMind, show us YOUR data. Show us YOUR facts. Don’t demand from others that which you won’t even provide yourself. By your own words, no data/facts = no argument. So by your own rules, you’ve lost.

You provide NOTHING. All you do is name-call and fling accusations. “We” show data, show indepedent studes, provide facts to back up our REASONED views. You simply call everyone a pirate. That’s all you’ve got in your locker. Pathetic.

Bottom line: Quit trying to disguise and deny your shilling with psuedo-intellectual babble. You, sir, are most certainly a SHILL of the highest order. An industry bulls.h!tter, and nothing more.

Your point was that piracy deprived the artist from getting paid, I just showed to you that, that is not the case. What else do you want?

As well, if they’re buying so many CD’s and DVD’s, why do they even feel the need to pirate stuff in the first place?

I don’t know and don’t care, what I do know is that piracy don’t negate market for artists and it may even be free advertisement.

They have the record labels to take care or promotion; they don’t need people like you, who claim to be doing it “for the benefit of free culture”.

I have no problem with people that won’t put any song in public places like YouTube or other services. They own the ball that is fine, but society owns the field, if they want to play ball inside this field they will have to abide by society’s rules where there is no favorites sorry. I don’t even have a problem not using their services or products because I have alternatives and can create my own content.

See here what I mean:

P2P NOT TO BLAME FOR CONTENT INDUSTRY FAILURES SAYS E.U. AUG 2009
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/p2p_not_to_blame_for_content_industry_failures_says_eu.php

The fact that CD and DVD, music and movie sales are rising does not make piracy any more legal. Until you manage to convince the general public that piracy is not some form of stealing somebody else’s work, or depriving them of remuneration (as shown by your evidence of increasing CD sales), your argument is moot in the eyes of the law. Until you can manage to actually get people on your side that aren’t already there, your argument will be ignored

First, where did you see written that CD sales did go up in my post? CDs are falling like a meteor and soon DVDs may follow as people start moving to other forms of media that are capable of storing terabytes. What I did try to convey was that CD sales are not important for the market. People who buy CDs would buy thumb-drives with the music if it came in a nice box. The plastic disc is a container not a platform. Damn they could put all the songs there with a copy of any game like guitar hero in it or any singing game and sell it.

Second I don’t think I need to convince anyone in the general population they are mostly already on the side of the pirates or we wouldn’t be having this conversation because piracy wouldn’t exist. Is the industry that have to prove to society that they are being hurt and deserve better but from where I stand they deserve a lot less from what they got now, and we will disagree on this one I’m sure.

The thing you are right is that my viewpoints means nothing to the law, that is correct, but about your assumption that I need to get people on my side I beg to differ, there are already an estimated 60 million households in the U.S. alone that used P2P. It is not the general population that needs convincing is politicians.

http://www.eff.org/issues/file-sharing

Since I will not be convincing no politician any time soon and cannot be heard by those in power, I do what millions are already doing. I disregard the industry complaints and found myself alternatives to their products and I aggressively lobby my fellow pirates to join me and partake the copyleft world together with the public domain.
You think people need millions to do music and movies?

I thought I’d never see the day that the pirates actually provided some good evidence for their arguments. (No, that case is no longer isolated because they are two of the same type of case.)

Good job.

Just, please remember not to call me a blinkered syncophant. If you’re going to call me names, come up with something original, like an “ignorant slave” or a “badly articulated bed-wetter”. At least you didn’t call me a corporate shill, like most people do. It’s a step up. ^_^

BTW, I have nothing to do with .neo.styles|nvDX, don’t even go on about that.

@81, 82 (Reasoned Mind):

That’s right, I am running out of tampons. But I’m not the one who uses them, so somebody else is in big trouble right now.

@85 (Anonymous):

People still buy CDs and DVDs. Particularly, DVDs are selling very well at the moment. Not even competition from legal venues like rentals, movie theaters and TV seems to be slowing the buying hunger of consumers.

Mind your punctuation and run-on sentences. They make your argument look incoherent and stupid, even if it isn’t.

As well, if they’re buying so many CD’s and DVD’s, why do they even feel the need to pirate stuff in the first place?

And please don’t give me the crap about try-before-you-buy, there are 30-second previews of songs on iTunes, and usually there are previews of movies that are about 1 minute long, on promotional websites that they do give out for free.

If it’s some really obscure song you’re downloading that you can’t get through legitimate venues anyway (and I’m not talking about region-locked releases, I’m talking stuff that’s outdated), then it might be excusable to download it off the Internet. But if it’s really one of those hit albums that you listed in the bestseller list, you’re really out of excuses if it’s a copyrighted work that the artist doesn’t want you downloading illegally.

Sure, BitTorrent may help the independent artists to get their music around, but do you think those hit artists that get pirated the most really need the “promotion” they get from torrent distribution? They have the record labels to take care or promotion; they don’t need people like you, who claim to be doing it “for the benefit of free culture”.

Even if the companies are as corrupt as you say they are, you have to change that fact before people will accept your opinion.

And the be-all and end-all of your argument is: The fact that CD and DVD, music and movie sales are rising does not make piracy any more legal. Until you manage to convince the general public that piracy is not some form of stealing somebody else’s work, or depriving them of remuneration (as shown by your evidence of increasing CD sales), your argument is moot in the eyes of the law. Until you can manage to actually get people on your side that aren’t already there, your argument will be ignored.

I’m interested in what contrived response you’ll have for me this time.

I wrote/quoted:
“A dissident, broadly defined, is a person who actively challenges an established doctrine, policy, or institution.”

Predator responded:
“Nor the current entertainment parasites doctrine nor the DMCA are established nor can they constitute policy or institution.”

Unsure about that, such as if you look at the larger picture and/or zoom in really close.
Consider also the ‘or’ qualification in that, as well as blurred distinctions, such as “corporatocracy”, as well as what/who influences what/who.
The DMCA seems established in at least US law:
“The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a United States copyright law…”

…

“Corporatocracy or Corpocracy is a form of government where a corporation, a group of corporations, or government entities with private components, control the direction and governance of a country.”

– Both, Wikipedia

Actually they violate the constitution and therefore attempting to enforce them is a crime. Therefore the ‘music pirates’ are no dissidents nor are they pirates.,

Perhaps, but I remain unconvinced.

So he can turn to us anytime, instead af fighting with myspace.

Nor the current entertainment parasites doctrine nor the DMCA are established nor can they constitute policy or institution.

Actually they violate the constitution and therefore attempting to enforce them is a crime.

Therefore the “music pirates” are no dissidents nor are they pirates.

I like getting lots of music + movies + porn for free.

Sometimes I like Myspace for playing poker. Maybe thats all.

Thanks for all the news .

I hope that I don’t get caught.

Stay safe ya’ll

http://absolutemadonna.com/?page_id=2401

The Hard Candy is not an impressive number even for post Napster(2001)
Hard Candy
Released: April 29, 2008
USA Peak: 1
USA Sales Figure: 714,000
Last Certified: June 4, 2008
UK Peak: 1
Total World Wide Sales: 3,800,000

Her best album sale was the The Immaculate Collection with 22 million units sold worldwide in 1990.

The Immaculate Collection
Released: Nov. 13, 1990
USA Peak: 2
USA Sales Figure: 10 Million
Last Certified: Oct. 18, 2001
UK Peak: 1
Total World Wide Sales: 22 Million

Hmmm…If I chart album sales and income I’m sure that what I will see is that when she was selling albuns she did not make much money the minute she started to tour hard she got the big bucks anyone want to bet?

Another conclusion is that even though album sales sunk her income grew despite all the pirates of the world she never made more money then this couple of years.

If I get all other artists I would find a similar pattern. So explain to us again how it is that piracy takes away the artists ability to get paid? When success have never paid so much to anyone in history?

2006/2007 Madonna income 27 million quids or 48 million dollars(at 1.8).

Which is more then the 7 years 60 million dollars contract with warner bros in 1992, which is more than the 27 dollars she had in 1982 LoL

Where is the loss of income due to piracy again?

Since piracy started live gigs have boomed, people are going out more often then before and artists are doing fine with live gigs apparently is the new gold mine and that is a gold mine that the recording industry can’t touch so all the proceedings go to artists and they are getting more money then they did in the past. I dare anybody say the contrary.

And you are taking away this “fair chance for remuneration” by pirating their works. The fashion in which pirates take these artists’ work does not afford much remuneration.

Care to see the table with the DVD sales and ticket sales showing growth particularly in the movie industry? Not to mention the B2B side of things that exploded this past decade. So no I actually don’t see evidence backing up your claims that something was taken, people still buy CDs and DVDs particularly DVDs are selling very well at the moment, not even competition from legal venues like rentals, movie theathers and TV seems to be slowing the buying hunger of consumers but I don’t think it will last we are after all in the worst global recession in decades and that got to have some consequences or the industry is immune.

Futhermore the decline of CD’s sales is the only part of the entire business that is showing real decline, but since nobody use discmans that should come as no surprise. The new walkman is called cellphone ringtones that can be made for free by any audio software are a billion dolar market as is the market for MP3′s.

Piracy today is what people did in the past recording shows and music from other venues and have no impact that one can measure.

Madonna on top of the 2009 list again.
http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3i7aabd374e1b54f163274392f4ebb0299

1. Madonna: $242,176,466
2. Bon Jovi: $157,177,766
3. Bruce Springsteen: $156,327,964
4. The Police: $109,976,894
5. Celine Dion: $99,171,237
6. Kenny Chesney: $90,823,990
7. Neil Diamond: $82,174,000
8. Rascall Flatts: $63,522,160
9. Jonas Brothers: $62,638,814
10. Coldplay: $62,175,555
11. The Eagles: $61,132,213
12. Lil Wayne: $57,441,334
13. AC/DC: $56,505,296
14. Michael Buble: $50,257,364
15. Miley Cyrus: $48,920,806
16. Taylor Swift: $45,588,730
17. Journey: $44,787,328
18. Billy Joel: $44,581,010
19. Mary J. Blige: $43,472,850
20. Kanye West: $42,552,402

And her CD sales numbers?
50th place. Very bad cd sales for a super star still she brings in a lot of money. Surely pirates are taking a tall aren’t they?

DVD 2009 sales:
http://www.the-numbers.com/dvd/charts/annual/2009.php

It seems to be a better year then 2008 that saw the minimum sales at 16 million dollars for the 50 higher compared to the 20 million dollars this year for the minimum sales figure to enter the 50th place in the list this year.

Movies income 2008/2009(counting only ticket sales from theathers assuming a fifthy fifthy split) from the biggest movies:
http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/records/budgets.php

One thing I’m very suspicious off is the numbers from the industry mouth pieces, I think they think people don’t go and verify their claims. If one should go and get the data and plot it I very much doubt that there is significant losses and this hysteria is more based on fear then facts and the reason is because the industry don’t release their numbers we have to get it from other fonts. None of the big players seems to be in the red according to public records so what again was taken from anybody?

Yeah, that was |The Flashbulb.

Morrissey: Don’t Buy My Music
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=KKq&q=morrisey+don%27t+buy+my+music&btnG=Search&meta=

Of course, that’s an isolated case too. They’re ALL isolated cases and can easily be thought of as such… if you have a warped and highly bigotted, one-sided, biased opinion.

BUT…. he serves a valid pupose, since he convinces NOBODY. Therefore, he has zero impact regarding his own agenda and actually serves as a example, held up for all to see, of industry hypocrisy.

Please do not ever go away ReasonedNeoMindStyles. You only make things easier. Oh the irony!

We call it Mafia: Organized crime or criminal organizations can be defined as a transnational grouping of highly centralized enterprises run by criminals for the purpose of engaging in illegal activity, most commonly for the purpose of generating a monetary profit.

@neo mindless (and other aliases)
2. Sony versus some Mexican artist (article at torrentfreak)..

3. Lily Allen from … (was it EMI)

I guess thats 3 strikes for you so you’re not allowed on the internet anymore so you will not be posting comments.

Note: every person sharing is an isolated incident, companies are doing it organized and so it cannot be an isolated incident or they would have solved it months ago.

The noun was first used in the political sense in 1940, with rise of totalitarian systems…

An important part of the activity of dissidents was informing society …about violation of laws and human rights…

This radically changed the meaning of the term: instead of meaning a criminal, who opposes society, the term came to mean a non-conformist…
”
– Wikipedia

Looks like the semantics of ‘pirate’ are changing.

I wonder how much heat the industry can output and what is going to happen with that heat.

you troll neostyle=Simple mind= few others aliases you are weakening.

You have to work harder man or your boss is going to fire you before we have time to fire at your boss.

Warner Music??? Never heard of them. Is that a new torrent site?

No this is a terrorist organization like El kada that we have to eradicate.