TorrentFreak

The place where breaking news, BitTorrent and copyright collide

eBay vs L’Oreal Through a BitTorrent Prism

In a recent court battle, among other things L’Oreal argued that eBay could prevent the sale of counterfeit items through its site and was therefore jointly liable for offenses committed by its users. The UK High Court disagreed and ruled in eBay’s favor. We take a look at the case through a BitTorrent prism.

On Friday the High Court ruled that online auction site eBay is not liable when fake beauty products are sold to the public by its users via the site. Justice Richard David Arnold ruled that eBay could not be held liable for trademark infringements committed by its users, dealing a further blow to cosmetics company L’Oreal who had hoped to put an end to the activity in the UK after failing to do so last week in the French courts.

Since there appear to be some parallels with this case and the various BitTorrent sites and their users, we thought we’d take a closer look. This isn’t an in-depth legal analysis, but a look at the case as a layman, through a Mininova-shaped file-sharing prism.

Clearly some of eBay’s users were committing trademark infringement by selling counterfeit L’Oreal products, as much was never denied by eBay. It could also be argued that many users of torrent sites are breaching the copyrights of various companies when they engage in illicit file-sharing of their products. The focus of the L’Oreal case was how eBay should deal with these infringements.

Usually a brand owner would see the fake items for sale on eBay and make a request for the auction to be removed, which eBay would have no problem with. Equally, if a copyright holder sees a torrent on Mininova (or any other BitTorrent site) that could lead to a copyright infringement of its products, they can contact the site and have it removed too.

But for trademark and copyright holders, this takedown proces can prove to be a time consuming task. As soon as one auction is investigated and shut down, more take its place. Similarly, as soon as one torrent is removed, users upload more to replace it. The whole process has the permanence of spinning plates, something which copyright and trademark holders aren’t happy with.

In the case of eBay, L’Oreal tried to get the court to do something about this situation, arguing that the online auctioneer could stop the listing of fake products on its site, something akin to a ‘trademark infringement filter’. They argued that that in its absence, eBay was jointly liable for the trademark infringements of its users.

Over in The Netherlands, anti-piracy outfit BREIN feels that Mininova should take a similar approach by filtering out copyright works pro-actively, something which it hopes to force on the site through the courts, despite some voluntary overtures by the site recently.

Unfortunately for L’Oreal, they failed to convince the UK High Court that eBay should be responsible for policing its auctions, with the judge confirming that it is the responsibility of the brand owner to monitor and report suspect auctions in order to have them removed. This type of system has parallels with current DMCA-style takedown requests used to remove infringing content from torrent sites.

Had eBay failed it could have been forced to introduce proactive new measures to stop or at least massively hinder the sale of trademark-infringing goods via its site. The company must be breathing a collective sigh of relief that it will not be expected to be judge, jury and responsible for every auction listed on its site, and the activities of its users.

Although siding with eBay, Judge Arnold made some suggestions of actions the auction site could take to deal with future sales of counterfeit goods. One of these non-binding measures included logging the names and addresses of sellers. He noted that although eBay could probably do more to stop these infringements, it does not necessarily follow that it is legally obliged to do so.

So what will happen when the Mininova case goes to court in June – will it be forced to do what eBay avoided and pro-actively remove infringing items from its index? Will Mininova’s eBay-style “notice and takedown” policy be enough or will it be required (or not) to do more?

Stay tuned…

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  • dnR

    I understand the frustration with fake items, illegal items and such. That said, I still feel like, correct me if I’m wrong, this is like charging eBay with murder if someone sold a body. Or (like the famous analogy goes) charging Google with copyright infringement for linking to torrents.

  • Anonymous

    The file duplication on P2P network is exponential.

    A simple mathematical formula demonstrate that to put a noticable dent in the availability of files, you need to remove 98% of the uploaded sources. There is no way to do this even with filters!

    There is a non-coercive solution to the problem that would have made happy everyone.

    But since the entertainment parasites are a bunch of terrorists and since we donc negotiate with terrorists we will wait until they die to setup these solutions and rebuild the industry.

    Sorry RIAA/MPAA!

  • doe

    Asking companies to police every site out there is the biggest crock of shit the law has ever managed to dump. DMCA is ineffective and just gives site owners a legal leg to hide behind.

    Filtering isnt going to do anything either because people will just get around them. What needs to be done, for Ebay and trackers alike, is to ban users who sell or upload pirated or counterfeit things.

    I bet if people on ebay were selling counterfiet money that ebay would be a little more proactive. This seems to be the attitude among the entire “black market”, do as little as legally possible, and its this attitude that tracker admins (and bottomfeeding blackmarket corporations like ebay) have which is going to get the laws changed to force them to do something about this problem.

  • Anonymous

    The MAFIAA should put a meter on every TV and Radio sold and two cards to be used on it one with the writing “MAFIAA content” and the other “indie content” so no one ever would see or listen to pirate copies no where anymore LoL

  • Anonymous

    meanwhile, parasitic counterfeiters continue unchallenged while ebay continues to make money off them.

    same thing with pirate bay. parasitic copiers continue unchallenged while the pirate bay continues to milk it’s advertising cash cow.

  • Anon

    @5:

    I run AdBlock. ;)

  • Anonymous

    @5:

    You forgot the parasitic pirates that watch TV those damn couch potatos and those pirates that never pay a dime for listening to radio.

    That is enough metered TV and radios now! so the people can rejoice and enjoy knowing that they pay their fair share to the MAFIAA LoL

  • @4@5

    @4 & 5 so what, I would rather it be like this than America having complete fanancial control(besides asia because they can’t bully them for money)through their mafia like system that they try to force upon the rest of the world. They are nothing but play ground bullies.

    @2, spot on mate!

  • Anonymous

    Better yet since the people cannot be trusted with the body of work of honest to God artists why not forbid the things that make it possible?

    Lets end piracy of digital content once and for all, all TVs and radios should be forbidden. All broadcasters of music and movies should go to jail for facilitating piracy.

  • John

    Ah, this article was great, but not because it drew similarities between content filtering between two specific websites, but rather for showing that it is NECESSARY that people who run distribution systems arn’t liable for what people do with their system.

    You wouldn’t expect the Royal Mail to filter out all racist material..
    Oh wait, no. People do.

    Well, you wouldn’t expect an airline like British Airways for being responsible of what goes on the airoplane – you would expect the police/customs to do that.
    Oh wait, no, people made BA liable if a passanger takes a bottle of coke on the place…

    Well… you certainly wouldn’t expect mobile phone carriers to filter out pictures sent over MMS with excessive skin tones to see if it’s child porn would you?

    Oh.. no.. wait… they are. hm. This is hard.

    It seems like.. in this day an age… it’s the messanger’s job to ensure that the message will be acceptable to you.

    But at the end of the day, what can you do..?
    Everyone wants control, and yet everyone wants privacy.

  • Anonymous

    By the way the MAFIAA should be responsible too the principal source o pirated music is CDs without DRM that are sold in every store on the face of the earth they’re facilitators to piracy too.

  • Anonymous

    @John:

    You’re kidding right the “Royal Mail” opens all the mail that it receives and look inside of every single mail ever to pass through it?

    Wow! that is incredible, fantastic job those little mail rats in the Royal Mail accomplished.

  • Anonymous

    as a user of both sites i can say ebay does disapoint me when i contact them claiming i had accidentally purchased a fake item and they dont care, at least if someone is sharing a virus mininova will remove it, contact ebay about someone selling warez and they say, haha sucker

  • kodabar

    Not a bad analogy, but it falls at the first hurdle. On ebay, the majority of the content is legal, whereas on a torrent site, the majority of the content is illegal.

    I am constantly surprised by how much latitude ebay is given though. Even when illegal content is reported to them, they’re very slow to act. Unless it’s intellectual copyright and you’re a member of it’s VERO rights programme that is…

  • Crimson

    Ebay: a website that provides a service to the public, and is sometimes used by individuals to “commit crime” (interact with “intellectual property” without paying the creators/rights-holders).
    Verdict: Innocent.

    The Pirate Bay: a website that provides a service to the public, and is sometimes used by individuals to “commit crime” (interact with “intellectual property” without payting the creators/rights-holders).
    Verdict: Guilty.

    Summary: Hosting an online service is not a crime. Hosting an online service that can be “abused by criminals in order to commit crime” is not a crime. Doing so without getting rich from it, however? THAT is a crime!

  • Consigiliano

    Are you kidding? The primary reason people use torrent sites is for copyright infringement and sharing of data they have not otherwise purchased. eBay in contrast does business legally while the main business and purpose of that site is not for illegal trade or scams. They run their site so people can trade items LEGALLY.

    Nice try. This comparison is a desperate attempt by torrent users to grasp for anything in keeping their free sharing afloat. BitTorrents sites are eventually coming down so prepare yourselves for the next technology for file-sharing.

  • Anonymous

    @5

    Advertising? What’s that? Never seen ads on TBP and never will.

  • Hom3r

    Another classic example of the dealer and the car. Just because the dealer sells you the car, doesn’t mean their responsible if you don’t follow traffic laws.

  • bottleneck

    to avoid fake items, post more real items.

    Bottleneck
    HappyTrackIt

  • free4all

    seems to be lots of mafiaa whores commenting today.all you bitches can eat a dick up!.sharing is caring you faggots!lol,you will never stop us…ha,ha fucking ha!

  • Anonymous

    “Are you kidding? The primary reason people use torrent sites is for copyright infringement and sharing of data they have not otherwise purchased. eBay in contrast does business legally while the main business and purpose of that site is not for illegal trade or scams. They run their site so people can trade items LEGALLY.”

    That sounds like TV and radio stations to me since nobody pay for watching tV or listening to radio. The industry don’t even see statutory payments as substitute for customers not to pay so those viewers and listeners are pirates too because they also have the means to copy and reproduce what they see prove of that is that the majority of TV shows shared come from TV so they’re(stations) also liable for pirating and the RIAA is also liable since the majority of music comes from CDs that have no protection whatsoever from copying.

    In the end is just how you frased.

    Filesharing is not stealing and could never be since there is no physical property to be taken away.
    People don’t go to stores in droves and still DVDs or CDs they go to the internet to see and hear just like TV and radio and most people don’t even have the capacity to store all they download which is further prove that the pattern of usage is more like TV and radio then that of a DVD or CD, further like TV and radio have means to record what people see and hear that is not different from the internet and the digital means used to store it. So if internet sharing is stealing so is broadcasting TV and radio.

  • Anonymous

    So if there is a tracker and it’s distributing copyright material why the industry doesn’t seem interest in making the same deals that they make with TV and radio stations?

    Besides that mobile phones are reaching a level where every single user will have a mini entertainment platform with capacities igual to todays desktops(4G networks and flash memory cards) if copyright owners think it’s bad now let the 5G revolution begin can anybody see mobile user pirating everywhere?

    I can see people going to work with digital copies of the latest DVDs they bought and sharing with everyone in the office bypassing the internet completely, P2P on mobile networks would be “da bomb man!”

  • Anonymous

    # 7 and #21: You forgot the parasitic pirates that watch TV those damn couch potatos and those pirates that never pay a dime for listening to radio.
    —————-

    that doesn’t make any sense. you must be the same person that keeps spamming every topic with this ridiculous analogy. there can’t feasibly be more than one person this stupid…

    network TV is funded primarily by advertisements. when you watch TV you are adding to that shows/network’s ratings, thus making them more attractive to advertisement firms who want to place their products and services in front of as many eyes as possible.

    when a network tv show is pirated, the advertisements are edited out negating any monetary value it once had to the people that created it.

    look at “terminator: the sarah connor chronicles”. big following online, no one actually tuning into the appropriate channels = show gets canceled. give yourselves a round of applause.

    when a cable (subscription) or premium channel (subscription) show is pirated, you circumvented the monthly fee for viewing (and funding) that material and thus also negated any monetary value to the people that created it.

    with radio, you only hear a few songs off an album and you have no control over how often or in what order the songs are played. this is not in anyway analogous to pirating full albums which you can play at your leisure.

    furthermore, mail and parcel services around the world use drug sniffing dogs, chemical tests, x-ray, and or physically rip open and inspect packages deemed suspicious. if they can do this in the physical world why can’t it be done in the digital world where the “suspicious packages” are if anything, painfully obvious, the equivalent of a box sent through FEDEX that says “PLEASE HANDLE WITH CARE: COCAINE AND HEROIN INSIDE!”

  • Anonymous

    I just don’t see the difference in an airborne digital signal(radio) from another airborne digital signal(wirelles). Could anybody explain to me why is a movie broadcast from a TV station different from a signal from the internet where is the difference?

    please don’t go for morals or philosophies I want to hear the factual difference from one type of signal and the other what make it different technically?

  • Anonymous

    “that doesn’t make any sense. you must be the same person that keeps spamming every topic with this ridiculous analogy. there can’t feasibly be more than one person this stupid…”

    Just don’t make sense to you because you cannot explain why people get to view TV and listen to radio for free on the airwaves and not on the internet LoL

    Because there is no technnical difference between a signal from the station and one from the internet are there?

    And TV and radios are a busness they pay but the viewers don’t do they now?

    It is just like the internet people use it to see things and hear so why it’s theft when people do it on the internet and it is not when stations broadcast free copyrighted material for everyone to copy tivo and sound recorders do exist you know that don’t you?

  • Anonymous

    what does the type of signal have to do with ANYTHING?

  • Turbis

    All L’Oreal products are also fake. We have a famous swedish singer that was in the L’Oreal commercial for anti-wrinkle cremes and now she’s a fucking raisin herself.

  • Anonymous

    The signal is the stream of information that makes a movie appear on that box of yours if there is no stream of data there is no movie to see or a miss something?

    So where is the difference between a stream of data from a tv or radio station that can be copied and the internet way?

  • Anonymous

    P2P trackers are like TV and radio stations.

    Users don’t pay for what they see, but the tracker maybe could pay it, so charge the tracker make him pay royalties that will be collect through advertisement.

  • Rabbit80

    Services like spotify are more similar to radio stations since they are a streaming service and no copy is made at the receiving end… And just like radio, it is possible for users to record this in an analogue way!

    Torrents are a bit different in that the data is not streamed, but sent in chunks, not in order and is reassembled at the receiving end to be used, copied etc.

  • Wing

    L’oreal have always been a bunch of pigs.

  • Anonymous

    @Rabbit80:

    Still torrents are a streaming of electric pulses, light or radio waves in essence.

    So where is the difference really between a radio or TV station and the internet?

    The business side can be totally different on how people make money out of it but the fundamental thing to remember is that both send copyright material and others can copy freely if they choose too do so and if internet user are thief’s so are all viewers and listeners around the word that don’t pay a cent for watching TV or listening to radio and record it with video cassettes or Tivo or any other mean. And what I want to see is someone who is pro-copyright try an explain why viewers and listeners of TV and radio stations are not stealing anything because that is what I’m going to use to tell them why viewing or listening over the internet is not stealing. That should be amusing :)

  • rockhospital.com

    its like saying that “Vägverket” should be liable for letting people break the law with over-used gasoline in a car, which can lead to a higher speed then the allowed on a road.

    Or suing Volvo for selling a car which could be used for breaking the law, or suing the ISPs for lending a hand to the pirates, oh wait, thats already being done, my bad. hahahha.

  • Rabbit80

    @31 OK – by your same logic, using torrents is akin to broadcasting since you upload as well as download… here at least you need a license to broadcast radio! So torrents are like the illegal pirate radio stations of old!

  • Anonymous

    @Rabbit80:

    Good point,

    But one could argue that the payment to the ISP could be called a license to use the internet don’t you?

  • Peter Danowsky

    Up for auction, I present my spine … it’s in perfect condition since I am a coward and I’ve never used it. Winning bidder pays delivery charges, but I will include my TPB account and a tube of anal lube in case you run into the MPAA.

    Thanks for bidding and good luck! :-*

  • Anonymous

    @22

    “have a mini entertainment platform with capacities igual to todays desktops” haha you accidentally put a spanish word

  • YName

    F .I.R.S .T. !! !!! ! !!! !!! ! !! !!! XD

  • Ghost

    I feel a necessity to respond to Mr. 16 (who I shall quote)
    “Are you kidding? The primary reason people use torrent sites is for copyright infringement and sharing of data they have not otherwise purchased. eBay in contrast does business legally while the main business and purpose of that site is not for illegal trade or scams. They run their site so people can trade items LEGALLY.

    Nice try. This comparison is a desperate attempt by torrent users to grasp for anything in keeping their free sharing afloat. BitTorrents sites are eventually coming down so prepare yourselves for the next technology for file-sharing.”

    I cannot, in words, quantify how idiosyncratic and idiotic this statement is. Thats like saying ‘Because tins of paints are used mostly for legitimate art (I.E. the preverbal legal trading of goods) where as spray paint is used mostly in graffiti (I.E. pirating), only tins of paint should be legal.” Both Torrents and Spray paint are used for legitimate purposes. A significant amount of free software (I.E. Free-software-movement, not free of charge) is disseminated through torrenting. Just because 80% of torrenting is pirating doesn’t mean that the established infrastructure is illegal. That’d be like saying that Lowes, or you equivalent local hardware store, is liable for every piece of graffiti, despite the fact that there are numerous legitimate artists out there who use spray paint as a medium. Tined paint, while mostly used legally, is also used illegally (look at PETA and their fur coat ruining antics.)
    You cannot have it be a case of what you think is right. If Ebay, who in fact are better positioned to prevent the dissemination of illegal goods (they can do things like block PayPal account for being useable, ask PayPal to block people from using the service (there are cases where this has happened), and disable accounts and block I.P.s) Additionally, it is easier to catch a physical criminal. Even if a torrent site closes down one torrent of an illegal good, someone else will put it up. The tech savvy of torrenters increases likely hood of using software to bounce the activity around (rending false IPs) it is a futile attempt. And if you take down one popular torrent, it is more than likely that more of that one torrent will pop up in its place. With physical crime those things are less likely. Ebay is in fact a bigger criminal here.
    And, incase you were unaware, significant amounts of legal trafficking is done through the torrent medium. Oh, and Ebay users can sell stolen merchandise. This prevents that from being sold. Torrenters probably wouldn’t waste the money in the first place on by the item, so no sale is lost, and because the physical item still exists, it can still be sold.

    Now, to number 3, one Mr. Doe
    “Asking companies to police every site out there is the biggest crock of shit the law has ever managed to dump. DMCA is ineffective and just gives site owners a legal leg to hide behind.

    Filtering isnt going to do anything either because people will just get around them. What needs to be done, for Ebay and trackers alike, is to ban users who sell or upload pirated or counterfeit things.

    I bet if people on ebay were selling counterfiet money that ebay would be a little more proactive. This seems to be the attitude among the entire “black market”, do as little as legally possible, and its this attitude that tracker admins (and bottomfeeding blackmarket corporations like ebay) have which is going to get the laws changed to force them to do something about this problem.”

    One) If an Ebay user was selling money, it would be an obvious scam. You can’t sell money for more than its worth, so it is a zero potential gain transaction. It would obviously be illegal activity.
    Two) It isn’t a crock of shit. Its capitalism. If you want to stop it, its your problem. It is easy enough to locate illegally traded software/music/t.v. shows/movies. The RIAA and MPAA proved this when they found hundreds of their copyrighted materials on the Pirate Bay. They didn’t request them down, and then looked for damages. If they had requested each one of those shut down, I’m sure they would have done it, and then the RIAA and MPAA would have to start over again, because new trackers would have popped up.

    To clear this up before it raises its ugly head:
    The Pirate Bay is no different from a guy telling you where a party is; The Pirate bay just gives you the directions to get there. You and the other parties commit the crime. Kinda like saying “Hey, there’s this wild party at Mike’s house. You could go there.”
    If there is weed at the party (for example, and assuming U.S. law), Mike, the host, has committed a crime (the guy who put it up) and the smokers have committed a crime (the down loaders) the Pirate Bay didn’t. They did not know that there would be weed, although there was a possibility, but then again there is the possibility of weed being anywhere and everywhere, so they can’t go to the police and say “there might be weed at this house, or this church or this cubicle or the office next door, you should check it out” How ever one you found out there was weed there, you could have bugged out and reported it (I.E. not downloaded it and told the RIAA/MPAA/Whatever) , or mike could have kicked the weed out (Not put the torrent up). your the guilty ones, not the guy who told you about the party.

  • AHorribleMan

    eBay is exactly like the major torrent sites, it makes a lot of money out of its users individually making copyright infringements. If only fully licensed and copyrighted products were sold on ebay, their profits would drop by millions and millions, just how if legal torrents were all that could be found on torrent sites, their torrent listings would drop by millions and millions. Personally i think copyright is wrong and sums up how greedy our society is….bring on the revolution!!

  • Dizzy

    L’Oreal sells fake stuff too…

    Come on people, these kinds of salves and stuff are complete BS. People believe they work so they see it. Lipbalm does work, any of L’Oreals potions do the same.

    If L’Oreal can lie to the people, then why can’t everybody (about this kind of stuff), glad the judge agrees ;).

  • JIT

    @23

    “look at “terminator: the sarah connor chronicles”. big following online, no one actually tuning into the appropriate channels = show gets canceled. give yourselves a round of applause.”

    Oh, having a for-the-geeks-only-audience-show run in a time slot when more popular for-the-general-audience-shows usually run, had nothing to do with its cancellation.

    Can you guess why it’s quite popular on Hulu?

  • The pirates song

    Being musical about it LoL

    Nine Days – 257 Weeks.

    “257 Weeks

    You could be waiting for a day that won’t come,
    And you could be so much more than you’ve become.
    And I have found my feet 257 weeks,
    But you could be waiting for a day that won’t come…
    You could be waiting for your life to begin,
    And you could be so much more than you’ve been.
    And I have found my feet 257 weeks,
    You could be waiting for your life to begin,
    And it’s so sad,
    You’re so good and I’m so bad!
    But you won’t see me wasting the best thing I’ve ever had.
    And it’s such a shame,
    That I can’t tell you anything!
    You won’t hear me still you endear me now!…
    Hard to see the window facing forward looking back,
    Over years spent tracing wondering how you left your track.
    Underwater breathing burns your lungs and breaks your back,
    And you could be waiting right here for a day that won’t come…
    And it’s so sad…”

    Changing the subject.
    W00T! Terminator ended? I will end my life right now no reason to keep going…hmmm…wait there is Caprica coming, aham! Me think that ending of life could wait a little longer LoL

  • epiclols

    i can’t really agree on this it is far easier to identify torrents which are copyright infriging, just removing all torrents under an artists name, i.e. my chemical romance would be very easy. However identifying counterfeit items is much harder.

  • Consigiliano2

    Response to #39 Ghost:

    I will bet you that 99% of torrent sites are used specifically for sharing copyrighted files, which is the definition of copyright infringement. Also, torrent sites are created specifically for the reason of sharing copyrighted filed. Virtually nobody creates a torrent site and says, “Ok, lets make sure we don’t share copyrighted files.” Thus the intent of the creators of torrent sites also makes them are liable in promoting the exchange of copyrighted material.

    Your argument of the spray can and paint that comes in cans is similar, but nonetheless inadequate in showing the intent of the creators of the spray cans. People don’t create these type of products specifically for graffiti. So if someone’s intent in creating something to do something illegal makes them liable of a crime.

    Do not be completely mistaken, I am an advocate of certain torrents such as t.v. shows. Years ago there were no such things as DVD box sets since these were aired on TV for free. And music on the radio could be taped, so things that are available mainstream should be available for torrents, despite my arguments for copyright infringement.

    Lets hear the reply, Ghost.

  • GhostWriter

    tl; dr. You suck.

  • Ripper

    @32 Anonymous

    “And what I want to see is someone who is pro-copyright try an explain why viewers and listeners of TV and radio stations are not stealing anything because that is what I’m going to use to tell them why viewing or listening over the internet is not stealing. That should be amusing :)”

    Well firstly I’m NOT pro-copyright, I believe that any information should flow freely to anyone who can use it. I just thought that I’d answer your question for you, at least if you live in the UK..

    TV viewers and radio listeners are NOT stealing. They DO pay to watch or listen, its called a TV LICENCE and costs around £135 per year. That licence gives them the right to watch/record BBC TV or radio channels and the BBC pays royalties back to copyright owners.

    With the independent channels such as ITV and Channel4, they broadcast for free but still pay royalties back to copyright owners through advertising revenue.

    Then we have subscription TV like Sky and Virgin Media. Your TV/Radio package costs upto £50+ per month (larcenous I know) ON TOP of your £135 yearly TV licence fee.

    As a torrent downloader you don’t like it when anyone calls it “stealing”, so don’t accuse others of the same, because there are people who don’t use bit torrent but still watch TV.

    Finally just a word on recording to educate you a little.. Its true that I can legally record a film or TV episode to my DVD recorder for personal use. However, if I then copy that DVD and “share” it, I am then subject to the same copyright infringement issues (if caught) as if I had downloaded it. Hope I’ve amused you.

  • Casper

    Something that filesharing debates often forget to mention is that – sure, downloading copyrighted material is illegal, and sure providing a service which aids infringment is illegal, however – should it be illegal in the first place?

    Why is downloading it illegal?

    The answer, which comes in loud and clear, is that it’s illegal because you’re getting a service or product without paying the author for it.

    But unfortunatly, there’s a big IF in that argument which many don’t see – why on earth should a product have an infinite value?

    A song can be licenced and replayed, resole, repackaged as many times as you like.

    Someone who sold, i don’t know… furniture, couldn’t do the same thing.
    He can’t create one chair and then just give a copy to millions of people without putting any effort in to it.

    I belive every product has a manufacturing value, and that the sold value of that product must be reasonable for the cost of production in relation to the demand.

    I’m not saying i want a comunist society, but i think this is ULTRAcapatalism. Where someone can write a song, and the net worth of that song and the distribution of that song is BILLIONS of dollars PER SONG.

    This, surely, is ridiculous. The reason we have labels is to distribute music – the number one cost for music artists.

    But it costs nothing for these labels to get there music out now-a-days, so in order to survive they have shifted there buisness from distributing music, to ‘owning’ music.

    All this pirating and copyright nonsense would go away over night:

    1) The price of music was REMOTLY similar to the cost it was to make it with the addition of a hounest profit.

    2) No one but the direct authors of music could own any more than their fair percentage of it, based on what they contributed to the development process.

  • Casper

    Also, can i just clarify something ..

    “Piracy isn’t stealing, it’s copying”

    Well. Actually. It isn’t copying. It’s fraud.

    Tax evasion isn’t stealing.

    Legally borrowing money from someone but failing to make the repayments isn’t stealing.

    Doing buisness with a prositute and running away without paying while she still has her ankles tied up in her underwear isn’t stealing either.

    It’s FRAUD, and in the latter example rape too.

    I don’t like the music industry any more than you do, but for gods sake don’t pretend it’s actually legal. Because it’s not.

    (I didn’t say it wasn’t acceptable though..)

  • Ripper

    @48 Casper

    “Someone who sold, i don’t know… furniture, couldn’t do the same thing.
    He can’t create one chair and then just give a copy to millions of people without putting any effort in to it.”

    But what if you employed a distribution company (chair label) to advertise and distribute the chair? You would have to give them OWNERSHIP of the COPYRIGHT of the DESIGN of your chair. Then they would go through every court in the world chasing those nasty carpenters who keep making copies of your chair and giving them away for free. And if they were successful you wouldn’t see a penny because it would be in their ass pocket.

    Okay, you may think that I’m being a bit tongue-in-cheek, but then the name on your chair could be Chippendale for example.

  • Ghost

    @ 45 I-can’t-be-bothered-to-check-your-name
    Actually, no torrent site is created with the intent of breaking the law. They are created with the intent of sharing files. And my spray paint can analogy is spot on. Talk to Peter Sunde, and I’m willing to bet that he’d NOT say that he and the others setup the pirate bay for illegal file transfer. And since the Spray Paint makers know that 90% of their product is used to deface property, so just like torrent site “owners”, they are liable. But seeing as they aren’t held liable, neither should the torrent site “owners”. and the Spray paint makers also know that their doing physical damage. where as a Pirate or Pirating shit “owner” only inflicts minor monetary loss. The majority of pirated music wouldn’t get disseminated in any case were it not for the free option. And statistics show that the vast majority of artists benefit from piracy’s dissemination of information in any case. Very few people benefit from spray paint.

  • Ripper

    99% of statistics are pure fiction.

  • Ghost

    And another round of responses.

    A) The comparison of piracy to fraud is just that fraudulent.
    “Fraudulent: Adj: Unjustifiable claiming or being credited with particular accomplishments or qualities.”

    In all the cases you demonstrated, the “victim” lost something. The Woman lost her money, the bank, its money, etc… But with pirating, a key point most people miss is, the Pirates wouldn’t buy it anyway. If your not going to make the sale in the first place, it isn’t stealing.

    B) Downloading music shouldn’t be illegal. It is illegal because of that fact that the companies, which already reap very healthy, and disproportionate profits want more. A CD nowadays costs less than a cent to make. The cases cost maybe 10 cents, and the music may cost a couple hundred thousand to make. when most companies say “It cost XYZ to fund this” they usually include the price of recording equipment, facilities, etc… for each song. really, a music CD should cost 2, maybe 3 at the outside, dollars. As it is, I have to pay 15-20 bucks for a CD. thats a 500 or so percent profit. it is unjustifiable.
    The fight is about nothing more or less than the morality of greed.

    C)And yes, 99% of statistics are pure fiction, but mine isn’t a definitive. Alot of spray paint is illegally used, a disproportionate amount, hence the arbitrary “90%” which acknowledges there is a legitimate use, but also that it isn’t the majority.

  • GhostBusters

    Pirates would never buy what they download eh?

    Why, because they’re not interested? Why would they download it then?

    Because they don’t have the cash?
    Well you don’t fucking deserve it then – I can’t buy a Ferrari but i don’t decide that because it’s over priced that i’m going to take one.

    (okay, that WOULD be stealing – but perhaps instead of taking one i built one. Then it would similar.)

    Besides – who said the man who raped the girl or the guy who took out the overdraft ever intended on paying them back in the first place?

    Sorry, but the argument of ‘i’m not going to pay you for your product because i was never intending to pay you for your product’ doesn’t make any sense. It’s circular reasoning.

    If people grew up, and started saying things like – “I pirate music because i wish to boycott the music industry. The cost of there product is far far far greater than it’s actual value – and they are holding our culture and art hostage until they get their money’

    THEN things might start moving forward.

    If you’re going to be a pirate, be a pirate. Be politically motivated – not economically.
    Don’t be greedy and download terabytes of music just so you have it – and never give a dime back to the artists.

    If the artists sold their rights to there music and as such there’s no way to pay them directly – fuck ‘em. There loss.

    I will never pay a distributor for a song i downloaded – but i am more than willing to pay an artist and the producer something i feel is closer to the value of the music…

    A Britney Spears Album would be worth.. hm.. £2 to me… maybe less.

    A Nujabes album… more like £20.

    But no, BS would £15 at the shops, and Nujabes are like £80.

  • Ghost

    @ #54, GhostBusters

    First off, free samples are a key element of marketing strategy in all areas retail, and they work on the same principle I stated. They give out free samples because they know that on the balance of probability a consumer wouldn’t pay to test a product, but will quite happily test one for free. If you see a plater of free samples at a deli, you’ll probably try one on the of chance that you will indeed like the product. I think that given the idea of free samples is a few hundred years old, that I’m not going out on a limb when I say the principle can be applied to Pirating.

    Second, I’m not being greedy, but I am however defending the view with out interjecting my own political motivation. I might pirate a copy of a offspring song, but I personally buy Immortal technique albums because A) they’re about 10 US dollars an album, and B) because the artist that work for Viper records ARE Viper records, the money goes straight to the artists because the artists are also the record label and my money isn’t being taken by some bureaucratic fat cat, but is going to the people who wrote the lyrics and busted the beats. I financially support record labels that give the artists their fair share. And I too get P.O.ed by greedy pirates.

    Third: If I built a ferrari my self, as long as I didn’t call it a ferrari, they couldn’t do anything. I know a guy whose building a fully functional replica of a Jaguar E-type (he has to date finished the chassis and engine.) and there is jack they can do about it because it is for his own use.

    Oh and a car comparison is bad, as are all physical object comparison. “Art” is a message (well, in a manner of speech) you can’t grab a note of music or a second of film. they are not physically quantifiable.
    And to head anybody thinking about it off at the pass: My spray paint analogy is talking about intents which also are non-physical, hence it works.

  • dotpixel

    Whilst L’oreal lost their case against eBay, don’t forget Louis Vuitton, who actually won over 40 million euros against eBay on a similar case… http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/technology/01ebay.html

  • emiko

    I really dont understand LV.Why do they have to sue everyone? why dont they sue this website: http://www.newlouisvuitton.com

  • BTGuard - BitTorrent Anonymously

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