Is a Fair P2P Trial Even Possible? Part 2
Written by Ben Jones on August 15, 2009In this second part of our look at the ‘fairness’ of P2P trials, we step away from the antics inside the courtroom to look at the overall effect that media perceptions and propaganda might have on a case. From the judge and juries attempting to enforce the law, to those that make the laws.
We have previously explored the problems of getting a fair trial inside the courtroom. However, public perceptions and information around the world in general also affects a trial. In a civil case, the verdict goes to the person that most convinces the jury, and juries tend to believe what they ‘know’. The likelihood that what they ‘know’ is material published by, and on behalf of the complainant often doesn’t enter into peoples minds.
Perhaps the most insidious aspects of propaganda is that you often don’t know when you’re witnessing it. One of the easiest ways to define it is as something that presents a clear position on a topic, good and bad, with little reference to the facts in an attempt to sway a group of people into believing a certain thing. There are three examples of this to draw on. One is the term ‘intellectual property‘. It’s a term that infers that copyright is a property that can be owned, and by extension, can thus be ’stolen’. In actuality, it is as its name suggests, a right of copying. However, the term ‘Intellectual Property’ continues. It’s also got the secondary aim of making it seem appropriate to lengthen terms, as by terming it property, and not a right to an action, it’s defined as an asset. Assets are easier to ‘protect’ than a right to do something, certainly over a monopoly-control of distribution.
The second is the association with ‘theft‘ and stealing. Copyrights can only be ’stolen’ if the actual rights are taken by someone. That is, if the person who owns the right has the right taken from them by someone else. That is also why copyright cases are not theft cases, although cases treated as such would actually be better, as criminal cases have a lot fewer of the problems identified in part 1, as we have also pointed out in the past. It would also significantly reduce the penalties. As Prof. Lessig pointed out in Free Culture (Pg 190), under California law the biggest penalty for stealing a CD is $1,000 – for infringing the copyright of that same CD it’s $1,500,000 (assuming 10 tracks).
The third and most important, are the oft touted ‘loss figures’ and studies. Every month or two an industry group, or company paid by an industry group publishes a ‘losses due to piracy figure’ or other claim. These figures attempt to quantify the unknown (and unknowable) and give a number that can be used in statements. The problem with all of these numbers is that they’re guesswork and estimation, just dressed up nicely. It’s impossible to tell what people are doing, and how many are actually infringing copyright so any figure on the amount of copyright infringement is just a guess. Then there is the question of how much that infringement impacts sales. So far industry data says it reduces sales, while independent studies show it either doesn’t affect them, or increases them. However, they’re not consistent on how much effect there is – some industry studies vastly contradict others with their values for the same thing (such this example)
Nor is this a new thing. Who can forget then MPAA president Jack Valenti calling the VCR the ‘Boston Strangler’ of the film companies. A few short years later that same Boston Strangler was providing those film companies with the majority of their income. The same thing happens time and time again, player pianos, radio, cable TV, the VCR, and now computers and the Internet. Like Chicken little, the sky didn’t fall down the last few times, and is unlikely to now for those companies, if, as before, they adapt and embrace the new technologies. Else they’ll go the way of the big train companies when 40-ton trucks became common, or saddlers and livery stables when the car was made affordable; an anachronism of old technology.
Of course, at the end of the day it comes down to the law. Again, there’s a problem. When you have politicians that are paid heavily by the copyright industry, or judges that are part of an industry group, then the laws are not going to have a firm basis in reality, nor will there be a fair and impartial evaluation of those laws. In some cases, prominent members of the music industry have been let off their crimes by court systems, such as in Nashville where Universal exec Ken Robold and singer-songwriter John Hiatt have had their traffic offenses dismissed.
Given everything we’ve covered, at least briefly, it’s clear that a fair trial when it comes to P2P will be impossible to be had any time soon.
Previously: Entropia Universe Will Disappear and Come Back With BitTorrent
Next: Britain Mulls Turning 7 Million Into Download Criminals
80 Responses
How can it be fair when the people who are supposed to judge and in positions of power are more crooked than a 3 dollar bill?
Indeed, nice article :-)
Why isn’t there a law against judges being part of group representing any organization?
Would make things go much faster.
rerew
You must remember that you have to take everything with a pinch of salt.
You do have to remember what website you are viewing this article on and what the website’s stance is on intellectual property. I’m not saying that this website is wrong in this article it’s just that many of you speak of seeing through the facade of the news articles and to only see the truth. Yet a lot of people here will read these reports and take it for solem fact.
@5
Torrentfreak staff can’t imprison you and try to ruin your life. Conservative judges that lean toward big business and paid-off juries of people who don’t even know what the internet is can imprison you and try to ruin your life. That’s the difference. One is mostly harmless, the other group can and will try to ruin your life for downloading mp3s and movies.
@ REASONED MIND
We await your bourgeois pontifications with baited reverence!!!
:-)
@6
I’m not trying to insult you but again your there claiming that you know about these people that will be in the jury. Yes these people might not be as tech savvy as a lot of the people that come onto this website, but you can’t dismiss this and just claim that they are all technological morons.
This just further throws the argument that we’re fighting an already decided battle.
This may be the case, but it can make the warez community come off as obnoxious and mean hearted which does nothing for our reputation or our stance in the general public.
@8 : “I’m not trying to insult you but again your there claiming that you know about these people that will be in the jury.”
Potential jurors are regularly rejected if they admit to knowing anything at all about p2p technology. I have never read of people being rejected on the grounds that they have read industry claims in the media.
Until you level that playing field, either choosing to accept or reject those from both camps, industry propaganda is going to unfairly bias civil cases.
Excellent article!
And, I’m sad:
Basically, they fuck us now with their unbelievable lawsuits; and they’ll fuck us then when they’ll have woken up, embraced the new technologies, and will be making a hundred times more money off us… just as it happened with VCRs.
@7 AMEN
Notice how most jurers that are sitting there listening to these type cases are all OLD PEOPLE..You wont see to many young people on the jury because they too are using Limewire and other p2p apps…
8 (Freak) said:
“Yes these people might not be as tech savvy as a lot of the people that come onto this website, but you can’t dismiss this and just claim that they are all technological morons.”
———-
Calamity (post 6) has a very good point. He/she didn’t say that the jury were “morons” or something similar.
That he/she means is that if a jury is not qualified for comprehending or understanding the subject in question for which the defendant will be judged then this jury should not be considered suitable for the trial, considering that an error of apreciation made by a jury of this nature could ruin the entire life of a person; as is this the case.
That’s probably because if you steal a CD it’s just 1 copy, but if you infringe the copyright (which might even arise from stealing the CD), there are potentially thousands of copies out there from that one CD. Hence the disproportionate fine.
@13 (my last post):
Well, then again, that point is moot…
Another thing,
I cannot believe that a group of common citizens agree with something as cruel and disproportionate as ruining the entire life of a young person for something as irrelevant as sharing a few songs with others.
For me, this juries were bought by psychopaths from the entertainment industry, who don’t care at all about ruining innocent people lives and underpaying to the artists for decades.
13 (Briggs) said:
“That’s probably because if you steal a CD it’s just 1 copy, but if you infringe the copyright (which might even arise from stealing the CD), there are potentially thousands of copies out there from that one CD. Hence the disproportionate fine.”
————-
Interesting thing, that the delinquents liars from the USA entertainment industry have not been able to show any real evidence that supports their persistent claims about “supposed” losses. This is simply an excuse for trying to control internet, that’s all; and all us are well aware of that.
Moreover, USA copyright law is illegal by nature; because this limits my legitimate right as person of sharing my possessions with who I want and as I want. Period.
Never is an idea or paradigm so institutionally entrenched and powerful that it cannot be overthrown by the will of the majority of the people. History has shown this time and time again, in virtually every country, in almost every period of time.
But Pirates by their nature infringe in hiding. To work publicly for what you believe in takes bravery. If you want the change you claim to seek you must find the numbers and the courage to make your case in public. But the fact remains, entitled infringement is not embraced by enough at this time to make a difference. The Pirate Parties are comprised of a few percentage points, the “never happy/always complaining” crowd. So while infringement (and every other form of online trespass) continues, laws tighten and surveillance grows. The network will not be abandoned to anarchy forever. Is this not obvious? This is so plain on its face it amazes that none of you will address your culpability to it, or even suggest a more effective, alternative plan. Ransacking was never a way to gain respect, in fact it has only led to tighter laws and punishment. You keep doing the same shit while bitching that the outcome doersn’t change. Isn’t there ONE INTELLIGENT PERSON to organize and lead this band of thieves?
Or is the perpetual adolescent clown Peter Sunde really the best you’ve got? Really?
The RIAA is always painted here as some huge economic force of nature that can never be resisted. Bullshit. That’s just uninformed. The American recording industry and our potato chip industry are roughly the same size. In other words, here in the USA the RIAA has the economic clout of our fucking chips. It’s even LESS in most other countries.It’s your smarmy entitlement to everything digital secretly taken for free that is wrong and would never manifest IRL and you all know it. So the appearance is you simply have a chance to steal while the getting is good, so you do. And then cloak it all in “free speech”, “it’s only 1’s and 0’s”, “it’s all crap”(but I still want it same as always) or music and motion picture product suddenly becomes “information” and now “information must be free.” Grow a brain. Such horseshit. Do you really think the people don’t see through this? The people are neither blind nor stupid and you are foolish to think you are somehow the only few who are not brainwashed and actually “get it.” How arrogant and condescending can you be? Who do you think you are? Jammie Thomas? You will always be marginalized and punished as long as the majority of the people believe you should be. That’s what happened to Jammie, that’s what happened to Joel and that’s really the bottom line at the moment.
The choice forward really has been yours but if you don’t take it publicly and in courage, the digital industries will take it for you. Stop infringing. Boycott and gather the people instead. When the people insist that everything digital must be free to everyone, laws and jury outcomes will change. Until then, you preach only to each other while your posterbois get 7 figure fines and jailtime and you look worse and worse. I don’t think there is enough honor amongst thieves to actually gain global respectability, frankly, but that’s just my own opinion. The choice has always been yours to prove me wrong.
So here on TF you whine that it’s always EVERYONE ELSES FAULT and EVERYTHING and EVERYONE and EVERY LAW is PURCHASED and EVERY JURY is CORRUPT while you can’t even gather decent public opposition to make your case in pride. You complain endlessly here as if nothing in life is ever fair, when all this has ever been about is payment when you take someone else’s merchandise. You should be ashamed of your crap behavior towards the middle class artist and even more ashamed of what your legacy is becoming.
The people will speak everytime so get real, get effective or get busted and STFU. Do you really wonder why nobody listens to your shit anymore?
How dare you say such things about justice.
Justice is blind it just so happens that it touches some more than others LoL
ps: For those incapable of understanding a joke the statement above is one.
The jurors did not decide anything in the case of Joe, he was already found guilty by admission and the judge simple instructed the jury to pick a value starting at 750$(minimum) to the max for what the value now escapes my memory.
The thing is in the U.S. juries can say no, they can choose to not rule anything and the trial is annulled or something like that.
Is an old safeguard that was put in place a loooooooooooooong time ago(when jurors refused to send anyone to prison for helping slaves) is just that nobody knows about it in todays world but they should, people can choose not to penalize anyone if they don’t think the law is fair even if it is legal.
But this is the U.S. much of what the U.S. demands from other countries they wouldn’t have the balls to do it at home, I doubt very much that any politician would like to see the result of trying to install a 3 strikes rule in the U.S.
When there’s no jury, the judge(s) usually try to rule according to the law. We can only believe that the court is impartial but sadly that’s not always the case. The judges are people too and they too can be corrupted by the media or by…other means.
Noting that these types of cases are often adjudicated only by a judge, in the event that a jury is seated for a civil trial that jury is not likely to be comprised of one’s “peers.”
That’s one of the first rights to be lost – a jury of one’s peers. Now we have jury’s that more realistically represent people that couldn’t scam their way out of jury duty. What a jury rarely represents is a cross-section of the population or of one’s actual peers.
It used to be that a nobleman had to be tried by other noblemen. Priests had access to ecclesiastical courts. And so on. Today voir dire is used to impanel the group most likely to convict.
Not having a few tech savvy people on a jury should make a trial reversible on a jury issue. But things being what they are hell will freeze over first.
The courtroom is theater – a staged production to give the appearance of justice. The judge sometimes even wears robes and presides over the event as if he were a priest. The jury often takes its cues from nonverbal things the judge does. Maybe the judge rolls his eyes when the defendant takes the stand. Maybe his voice raises to a slightly higher pitch in transactions with the defense attorney.
There are a million ways in which outcomes are significantly predetermined exactly as these articles state. In every other way, a defendant hasn’t much of a chance anyway. Most jurors think the defendant “must have done something” or he wouldn’t be on trial in the first place.
Ultimately people are tried and punished on mere suspicion.
The enormous awards being handed to the RIAA is just one more sign of how much all of us are living under corporatist oligarchies. Crimes against corporations are the “worst thing in the world.”
Welcome to Room 101.
Jurors especially the American variety tend to be to obsequious, not to mention dont even know that there is another half of the world that doesnt revolve around them. I used to wonder how Fox News had such a significant following then I realized that Americans are gullible. If I’m a prosecutor and I can say that each copy is worth 20,000 bucks than yes American people have failed
How can P2P get a fair trial when uninformed and uneducated people claim that it’s a risk to privacy and national security?
P2P is a technology. And like any other technology, it can be used for good and for evil. Blaming P2P does not solve anything, especially if P2P is mis-understood.
File sharing/P2P doesn’t kill people, people kill people. When folks understand that, maybe then P2P will get a fair trial.
Beyond that, the industry (movie & music) need to go back to the drawing board and review their tactics/strategies for music pricing and distribution. If they could up with something ‘better’ maybe illegal p2p/piracy wouldn’t be such a big problem.
techloid
http://www.techloid.com
Trains are still used to ship freight…
@18 Aug 16, 2009 at 03:23 by Reasoned Mind:
Unfortunately for you there are those of us that don’t buy music, don’t listen to it, don’t buy software or any other thing coming from these people and are more concerned with privacy, freedoms and civil liberties and that is not a minority so the only horse shit I can smell is just your worlds of doom and gloom about a police state that is based on the assumption that the people will do nothing to stop it you see I believe in the greed and selfishness of the people they don’t care about others just like the industry don’t care about its costumers and if push comes to shove then you will see what “the people” really means.
Someone said once “Democracy have 3 boxes to defend itself:
The soap box, the jury box and the ammunition box use it in that order”
Do you want to see the true volume of people against the industry and their ways?
Because in every blog, every site that deals with electronic products, science or tech(techcrunch, boingo boingo, physorg, popsci etc) when there is a story about the MAFIAA if you read the comments there is virtually nobody defending the pro-copyright crowd so or you’re blind, or stupid, or a liar or all of it of course I could be wrong too and in that case I would have to apologize but so far what I see and read don’t make good odds in your favor
Besides even artists now they are outnumbered, why do you think they don’t speak in public against piracy and call everyone a criminal? are they crazy or suffering from some illness that impede speech or something?
No, they are hiding behind their umbrella corporations that do their dirty work for them, even you unreasonable mind is hiding behind an anonymous handle but why? are you not man enough to handle things? are you not the one preaching to others to assume in public and be strong why don’t you do it? are you a coward like the ones you accuse? put your whole name, address and workplace over here you have nothing to fear if you are strong and such a badass LoL
The Unreasonable Mind sounds like the PR guy from Iraq “There is no American troops here!” LoL
http://mediamemo.allthingsd.com/20090814/the-pirate-bay-still-hasnt-gone-legit-still-enjoys-poking-big-media-in-the-eye-how-to-get-a-675000-mixtape-for-free/
I guess Ernesto lost one news about the TPB the new the “Joe $675000 mix tape”
And God those damn pirates are everywhere look at the comment section.
Never will there be a fair trial, all the people involved have been bought & sold…
Retarded Mind is still supporting the pirates, nice work.
Great to see someone so blind miss the obvious fact that, copyrights = control = big fines = raping & pillaging = Pirates = riaa/mpaa.
I wish you would stop claiming that downloading increases sales. That might be true if 5000 people download “Man from Earth” but it’s certainly not true when 5 million people download Heroes.
@18 reasoned mind
already in your first main non-thesis paragraph you are generalizing like hell. pick up some new tactics.
Of course it is true, it makes the work visible to a large audience that will want to buy something, if only 20% buy it, it is a win, because that is the theoretical ceiling of markets proven statistically and it is called the “rule of 20″(or pareto principle)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle
Spammers give their products for free and make millions how is it that the MAFIAA is unable to do so are they dumber than the spammers?
Well 18 s partly right. We are sitting on our fat asses and doing nothing, while in fact we now have one of the mightiest weapons and to be used when sitting on our fat asses. The Internet.
What is the wrong perception of 18 is called the silent majority. Going back in history it was never the majority who stood up and said “now it’s enough”. That majority always followed a very small minority and not in conviction, but as a way of life. Assuming any stance of the majority is bullshit because they don’t have any, they just are trying to live as happily as possible.
So in fact it are 2 minorities fighting each other. One corporate and one civilian.
I hope I never will see the day corporate companies get the same rights as civilians. Intel is now fighting an anti-trust claim of the EU on the basis of human rights. I don’t give a rat’s ass about that claim or Intel, but if they get hold of the human rights as a company, it’s the end of human rights.
Why do I say that, because we are in age where it shows that laws can be lobbied, can be written and can be abused by non-civilians and it’s not a pretty sight. One of those examples are the intellectual property right laws.
One of the first big NO-NO’s in capitalism was distribution rights granted by governments to private companies in a free market. It is impossible to eliminate distribution policies, but to subsidize it by law is not capitalism.
Intellectual property rights were not meant to be used as distribution rights. It’s a given that the creator is protected and is given the right to a fair income on it’s creation, but it doesn’t say you have to get enough income for the rest of your life for 5 minutes or 1 day or even 1 year of work. I don’t think anybody will argue that is fair but it’s how those laws work. Not every time, but enough to show they are abused.
Again it are 2 minorities fighting, one is powerful because of their money, the other one is powerful because they are human. It takes time, but to say “fight to death” or STFU is not very advanced, to say at the least.
fuck the M-P-double-A comin straight out the underground
a young pirate got it bad cause I’m down,
loadin DVDs like a motherfuckin fiend,
bring my camera to the movies and I put em on BT,
back all that stolen content up on DVD-ROMs,
cause my tip’s been piracy since I dropped out my Mom’s,
and just because I share my MP3s,
they got the government comin after me,
instead of suin kids why don’t you step on up,
and release a couple albums that don’t completely suck,
stop puttin DRM onto audio CDs,
that don’t make it any harder to steal your MP3s,
if I want your shit for free, I ain’t gonna have to pay,
and all your bullshit is why the fuck I say,
hack the Gibson, hack the Gibson,
I’m seedin BitTorrents like a digital pimp, son
All:
fuck the M-P-double-A
fuck the R-I-double-A
fuck the suits behind the BSA
and fuck em all for the DMCA
Recycle Bin:
robot pirates, we get our shit for free,
parental advisory you’ll never fuckin see,
been a couple years since I seen an FBI warning,
cut it out cause that shit’s mad boring,
ya’ll fuckin dumber than that bitch from bad boys,
step to the Bin and it’s grandma’s sex toys,
I’ma just keep fillin up muh drives,
the ones that disapear when the lawsuit arrives,
all you fuckin suits can suck my balls,
when you get done you gonna make some calls,
I better see some changes or it’s time to fight,
you ain’t gonna manage my digital rights
Subrandom:
remember when anti-trust was the thing,
now you’re set up for downloadin Sting,
treatin payin customers like criminals,
pens filled up with music nerd animals,
buyin off senators left and right,
my vote doesnt count in this fuckin fight,
on the 56k had hundreds of songs,
drives partitioned like asses in thongs,
now its gigs of illegal content,
if I get caught im joinin a convent
fuck what you heard, it’s all a scam,
if they at your door burn em in a van,
Coaxke:
they got dollar signs in their fuckin eyes,
with heads in-between politicians thighs,
fat checks endorsed by senators that lie,
pullin fake dollar losses straight outta the sky,
and i don’t trust trusted computing,
they don’t want it around to stop looting,
the internet is the only place you’re still free,
if you disagree, just you wait and see,
you wanna lock down the web and throw away the key?
well, you better not touch my fuckin technology,
so back the fuck off or you’re fuckin dead,
yellin 1337 on a motherfuckin fed.
‘Reasoned Mind’, “But Pirates by their nature infringe in hiding. To work publicly for what you believe in takes bravery.” I’m here, I state my case clearly. I’ve worked in copyright enforcement. I’ve worked in content creation (TV, Music AND film, both in Europe and the US), and I’ve created inventions AND registered patents. A good percentage of these two pieces (part 1 and 2) were based on personal experiances in court, especially the second part.
What started me off was the ‘Piracy is a Crime’ campaign in the UK several years ago (the origin of the ‘you wouldn’t steal a…’ film) where the ‘evidence’ used was quite obviously created (identical noise lines, and identical audience outlines, for stills taken from different films). My MEP, Arlene McCarthy, at the regional launch event for the campaign said the sale of Pirate DVDs funded the first attack on the WTC, which happened several years before hte first DVDs came out.
Basically, what started me off was the lies. I’ll tell you something else, every statement of loss made by the ‘industries’, is unsourced. Often the scope of the industries is overstated. Did you realise, for instance, that when it comes to the employment figures for the ‘creative industries’, they usually include retail jobs. Not just the ‘Banged Grain’ seller, but the wal-mart checkout person.
I read pretty much every study released on these topics (I actually have a 2gb flash drive with nothing BUT these types of studies on), and not just the US, but every country, even in other languages. I’ve noticed something with them. There has been NO study that claims a loss for those industries, that produces it’s raw data and methodology. Those that say there is little evidence for the losses, sometimes do. One of the most amusing ones is a study being done by a longtime friend, Andrew Norton (formerly of the US and International Pirate Party). We covered the beginning of his study last June here. He has provided all his data, and all his data comes from 2 places, the movie industry, and the government. The head of the Finnish Pirate Party did a study of the last 18 years of music sales in Finland, and found little coorolation between sales and p2p (thats on N2N), and again he used industry data.
Finally, you say we like to be hidden. I’m not hidden. Andrew is not hidden, he’s done many TV, radio and newspaper interviews worldwide. You are hidden. The data behind every industry study is hidden. Why is it hidden? Is it a vampire? sucking the blood from civilisation, and would burn a firey death is the cold light of day were to fall upon it?
In fact, ‘Vampire Study’ would be a good term for most of the industry ones. They’re filled with a glamour, very powerfull and intimidating, but easily killed by sunlight.
.. And that is why the law fails
Thanks for these excellent pieces, Mr Jones.
@Reasoned Mind:
um, the laws ARE bought…you`ve heard of LOBBYIST?
as for anyone else, if you personally know any do us all a favor…one bullet to their temple…
and as i said before the “recovered losses” are hardly ever paid back the creators…someone prove me wrong because that info always seems to be missing from these stories…
@ Ben, thanks for your reply and the time it took to craft it but like many others here, you work a similar sophistry, skipping my point and focusing instead on “loss statements” and “industry lies”. There are enough lies in this debate to go around for everyone, and your points are beside the real point as you know.
The laws are clear and the effects of taking without paying are irrelevant to the discussion. Statistics from all sides can be made to “prove” almost anything.
People who honestly believe that everything digital now and in the future must be free of cost and unencumbered on the internet have a very long, very uphill fight ahead of them, and the 5% +/- Pirate Party registrations are likely representative of these so-called “majorities” you claim to hold in the court of public opinion. If there is delusion here, Pirates certainly share in an overinflated sense of their own numbers and self-importance.
So my message stays the same.
Pirates will either take the steps now to create a genuine groundswell of majority support that carries the day, or they will continue to be legislated against, surveilled, pursued, apprehended, tried and badly punished. And inevitably removed from the network, deserving every step if this is the best you can bring. The punishments will continue and more lives will be damaged on this path the pirates themselves are maintaining.
So until you, Ben, and all those that you claim to speak for 1) begin to act responsibly 2) gain majority Pirate Party support 3) stop actively supporting lawbreaking in sites like TF, and 4) take your grievances and your voters to the highest levels of government….until you take GENUINE ADULT STEPS TO DEAL WITH A GENUINE ADULT ISSUE….. you are part of the problem. And some of the liability for the damage rests with anyone who facilitates or encourages lawbreaking, or helps create a false sense of entitlement or security at this point in the proceedings. We all see far too much at this point in time to pretend any longer.
Frankly, I don’t think the pirate mentality has what it takes, Ben, and I think time will show this. Instead, pirates will continue to whine like spoiled children, hide behind ever diminishing privacy laws, infringe and rain damage on the internet, all the while pointing fingers at anyone and everyone but never themselves.
That’s why it’s high time for influential sites like TF to wake up, see the trends and act upon them as adults, or you’ll find increasing penalties and decreasing sympathy for anyone caught up in these legal/financial messes that are literally all of your own making.
Or……. you can just keep cheering pirates on while making money on your advertising and pretend that TF didn’t encourage an illegal mentality that played a supporting role in Joel’s and Jammie’s plights. We all make our choices.
We do what we can in our own ways to try and make a change against a failing business model and a vastly out of date law system.
The law needs to be changed, doesnt mean free media across the board it means business should catch up with technology and demands of consumer.
“The law needs to be changed, doesnt mean free media across the board it means business should catch up with technology and demands of consumer.”
Exactly. For me this is not about grabbing freebies, it is about forcing the copyright industry to adapt their increasingly outdated and rapacious business model to the technological, economic, and social realities of the 21st century.
@Reasoned TROLL,
Well, the last time that I checked the internet this had 25 MILLIONS of ACTIVE filesharers ONLY on TPB. In other words, the internet has as MINIMUM 25 MILLIONS of ACTIVE filesharers, we know that there are a lot more, and obviously, we, the filesharers are an overwhelming MAJORITY against a SMALL MINORITY of parasites as you ‘reasoned TROLL’, sad reality for the MINORITY of scum as you who insist in protect an obsolete and corrupt industry, you see.
Another thing, if you don’t like the fact that the persons use pseudonyms on the internet, then, you must be the first in putting here your REAL NAME, your REAL ADDRESS and your REAL TELEPHONE number!!!, give us your example!!! :-).
BTW, I don’t live in USA, but I have some radical friends in your country that could make to you a “nice” visit… I wait for your real personal data… :-)
Just a couple of points to make.
First, it’s always interesting Resoned Mind’s little pro-corporate rants vs the other comments on this (and other) topic. You can get that balance from the slants from the corporate propaganda that you see in the media daily vs to informed comments and jeering that you see on sites like this. Sure Reasoned Mind is probably some corporate stooge that is paid to troll these sites, and while he makes his comments in a formal and intellectual way they are bereft of fact. He would like you to think that the corporations are our friends and that they are severely hurt by all the pirating that is going on. Of course this is pure BS. One just has to look in the news to see scandal after scandal involving corporations and government officials. They are not protecting artists or the industry…they are protecting their power over governments and just plain simple greed. So please keep spewing the corporate propaganda, you will be just making out point for us.
Second point, the reason why we have this problem is that our governments is corrupt and big business wants it that way. Our governments politicians & high-level bureaucrats are protected. Especially the bureaucrats, because they don’t change on the whims of elections. In the government there is no transparency and no accountability. The perfect environment for corruption to fester and reign. Then you add the Big Business, with their lobbyist with deep pockets and a cadre of lawyers on retainers. This creates a perfect storm of corruption where the government gets paid off, the corporations get what they want, and the public gets screwed!
So, no I don’t think that corporations with their revenue in the billions are being hurt by internet pirates. I think it’s The Suits wanting more control over anything & everything that brings them power & control and satisfies their greed.
So faced with that, Reasoned Mind, who the hell want to get brave to go public when you are faced with such a one-sided battle that you can never hope to win because the decision is already against you, because it’s been paid for by Big Business.
Wake up! it already is an there is nothing you or anybody can do about it.
Have you not seem the stats?
The only people bitching and moaning is you not us LoL
By the way bring it on the draconian laws. I would love to see the U.S. implement all of them first to show the world how it is done :)
Seriously go to the government and ask the most aggressive and intrusive form of IP laws that the human mind can think off and you’ll see what it will happen.
Not even people who are trying very hard like the Chinese government seems to know how to stop anything what make you think the rest of the world can?
From a technical point of view the internet is a success the engineers that made it knew exactly what they were doing and succeeded brilliantly.
The internet is robust, self healing and almost indestructible, it was designed to be strong against censorship and so it is, IP laws means nothing when you don’t have a very real way to enforce something is a tower made of cards is an illusion and the people just prove it to you.
People are not downloading less even in the U.S. that have one of the biggest numbers of shares in the world, in the world do you hear that? I think it was your BS exploding LoL
People don’t want to be in politics they don’t want to care about anything they just want what they want and found a way to get it and there is nothing, no law, no gizmo that will change that unless some demented mind try to pass laws that strips all privacy of all citizens and permit the government and private agencies to monitor how people take a dump. Do you see that happening and no one complaining?
The future is not about “IP products” is “IP services” if you can’t wrap your head around the concept please be so kind to direct yourself to the nearest soup cue.
The cost of doing business on the internet for the MAFIAA is that they don’t own products anymore they own platforms.
And listening and viewing was already free well before the internet. Radio and TV are free and they was free and there are still dumb people who buy things from the industry and nothing that I say will change that some people just like to buy a lot even though they gain nothing from music besides the supposed happiness WTF is wrong with people?
And then there is the real market that is live performances, theaters, T-Shirts, cups, caps, toys, ad revenue, and a lot of others markets that could be exploited and milked and you tell us that the internet should be paid although there is no feasible way to police it or enforce anything in it what are you? a drunk?
Actually, the technology today and special torrent utilities allow you to mash your IP address with others involved so that in the end it is not possible to identify who downloaded or uploaded what. Torrent freak has written about these utilities earlier and they actually work.
So the most active thing to do is to just work on these anonymity technologies – thanks God, the Internet is such an environment that it is best suited for anonymity and it is really easy to enforce. Enforcing identification, on the other hand, is very difficult technically, closer to physically impossible.
As for changing general public’s opinion, I think file sharing should be called file sharing and not piracy. Pirate Party sounds negative because piracy is attacking ships and killing people. Call your party a Filesharing Party or Free Information party or whatever and the general public would favor more.
@ 35:
~~~thats awesome!!~~~
@44 (Trelew):
Just a couple of points to comment on.
Hold on, you’re portraying yourself as informed commenters, and yet those corporations are slanted. Why not say that you have a balance between slants instead?
Sentence fragment much…? I corrected it, but anyway.
Have you even read his comments? He tells us that in order for the pirate population to gain any political or economical clout, we need to get organized. He’s actually telling us a good way to get our point around. I don’t think a corporate stooge would do that, they’d just say “Stop opposing us, we’re the real government. We’re not going to tell you how to oppose us fairly, because we don’t want you to do that. Instead, we’ll just keep on shoving fines onto random people until you greedy bastards decide to stop.”
Can you point out even one scandal that had to do with piracy? Court cases do not count as “scandals”.
Also, the industry is not protecting the industry? The industry is made up of corporations; just pointing that out if you didn’t realize…
Oh dear, both sides genuinely believe that the other side is wrong and a bunch of lying bastards. Who shall I believe? Perhaps the government isn’t corrupt, and you’re shoving the blame you ought to be delegating to the copyright business onto the government instead.
Please back that up. I know that some government officials are honest.
Isn’t that what happens in those African countries where the demographics have degenerated? And in medieval England?
Both sides call the other side greedy. WTF?!?
I’m not Reasoned Mind, but I can say that black people had a similar struggle in America 150 years ago. They also rebelled in secret, but eventually many of them moved up to Canada, where they were free from the tyranny of the slavery business, and then America had a civil war that ended in the abolishment of slavery. Okay, I’m drawing too many parallels here…
Interesting debate between Dingo and Reasoned Mind.
Here is the solution:
Make. Media. Cheaper.
I am in the supermarket, and see the DVD/bluray rack. There are at most 100 different movies, and most of the recent ones are 20+ euros. I am not up to date on how good any of these movies are since, no imdb ratings are given.
Why would I risk 20 euros to buy a movie that I know nothing of and that might be horrible?
Now I am forced to download a poor copy of them and that is not stored on a disc and does not have all the nice ‘extras’. But at least, if I download a bad movie, I dont feel like I wasted money.
If these movies costs 5 euros I would feel much more comfortable in buying a bunch, and even if they sucked, I would not feel so bad.
If these movies costs 5 euros, I would not need to download them.
Make. Media. Cheaper.
I’ve visited this site alot and have never commented before, but after all these comments here I felt inclined to at least give my to cents. Reasoned Mind, obviously pro-corporation, always plays little games with what he says and I think it is freakin hilarious.
I pirate based on my personal beliefs. I never pirate music. I don’t even buy but maybe 3 albums a year. I think music today has gone to crap. BUT, I do download TV shows. I don’t think I should have to pay to watch a show again that was shown on a FREE TV channel and shown on a website like HULU for free. They have made money on advertising off me twice, and at least with web advertising they know exactly have many people have seen the ad and can target ads if I’m signed in.
Knowing what I am doing, I am fine with do the crime face the fine that seems to be going on, but what I don’t agree with, and what I think is the most important part of all the arguements here, is that the fine is so umproportional and that the laws and evidence surrounding these outragous fines all come from the same entity that is sueing everyone.
I don’t believe that an entity should have control of every aspect of a trial. The record companies pay millions to get thier laws passed. They then take one of their very own customers to trial over the very law they created. They use their own evidence that they created, or from a company they pay to create the evidence they want, to persuade a jury to give outlandish settlements. From start to finish the defendents never have a chance at a “fair trial”.
Reasoned Mind, you have said before that we “pirates” always bitch and never have an fix actions. Here is one for you. Think about this, maybe our society is moving from the society the music industry has grown used to. Maybe in todays society musicians aren’t going to all be millionaires living in giant houses, driving a bently and a lambo, flying in thier private jets, and wearing 50 thousand dollar outfits. Why is it that a CD is the only thing (that I can think of right now) that has stayed at the same price point for the past 10 years or more with no change in quality, quantity or anything else that would give a reason for no price change. DVD’s have had thier price drop over the years and now blu-ray is picking back up where DVD’s prices used to be years ago. If I were to go down to best buy right now I would have to pay $20 for a new album. If I went there to pick an album from 3 years ago, it would still be $20. But if I went to go pick up Independence Day on DVD it would probably be on there 9.99 sale rack, not the 29.99 it was when it came out. Why is that music has no dreprciational value? Why is it the music industry fought so hard with apple and itunes do digitaly distribute your music? Maybe the music industry is being ran by old timers who can’t adjust and take hold of a new era in technology where people can get anything they want whenever they want it. If the music industry and the television studios/movie studios started their own paid newsgroup service with tiered service based and GB allowances or whatever I would gladly pay, but, knowing the greed that those companies possess, I wouldn’t be able to afford a $1000 a month.
Sorry for the long post. Just needed to get all that out.
@(Un)Reasoned Mind
Your argument is ridden with fallacies. Just a few of them:
“@ Ben, thanks for your reply and the time it took to craft it but like many others here, you work a similar sophistry, skipping my point and focusing instead on “loss statements” and “industry lies”.”
You are ignoring the cause – if there isn’t any harm, there is no problem with sharing. The cause of all these problems is the industry’s claim that they are losing so much profit. This claim was never proven, nor shown by any scientifically valid study (meaning containing raw data and methodology used and after favorable peer review). Yet, you are saying it is not important and we should just continue discussion as if it was true.
“But the fact remains, entitled infringement is not embraced by enough at this time … So while infringement (and every other form of online trespass) continues, laws tighten and surveillance grows… Ransacking was never a way to gain respect … this band of thieves? … It’s your smarmy entitlement to everything digital secretly taken for free that is wrong …”
In all of the above excerpts you are begging the question – WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO PAY FOR EVERYTHING (example: air)? It was never established as a fact. In fact, i can rebuke this unspoken assumption quite easily – we pay because there are not enough things for everyone, they are scarce. Law of supply and demand determines the price to pay. But behold – digital “property” isn’t scarce, so why should we have to pay for it? There is infinite supply, so the price is 0!
Another one:
“So the appearance is you simply have a chance to steal while the getting is good, so you do. And then cloak it all in “free speech”, “it’s only 1’s and 0’s”, “it’s all crap”(but I still want it same as always) or music and motion picture product suddenly becomes “information” and now “information must be free.” Grow a brain. Such horseshit.”
You are committing guilt by association fallacy by placing sharers together with thieves, when you never established that sharing is theft (see counterargument from scarcity above).
Also, there is a factual error: everything digital IS information – otherwise it couldn’t be copied. Read up on information theory.
“Instead, pirates will continue to whine like spoiled children, hide behind ever diminishing privacy laws, infringe and rain damage on the internet, all the while pointing fingers at anyone and everyone but never themselves.”
Ad hominem. Never did you disprove our concerns about privacy, never did you prove WE damage anything.
Need i continue?
Also, i agree this is a fight between 2 minorities, the majority is silent … as always.
I’ve visited this site alot and have never commented before, but after all these comments here I felt inclined to at least give my to cents. Reasoned Mind, obviously pro-corporation, always plays little games with what he says and I think it is freakin hilarious.
I pirate based on my personal beliefs. I never pirate music. I don’t even buy but maybe 3 albums a year. I think music today has gone to crap. BUT, I do download TV shows. I don’t think I should have to pay to watch a show again that was shown on a FREE TV channel and shown on a website like HULU for free. They have made money on advertising off me twice, and at least with web advertising they know exactly have many people have seen the ad and can target ads if I’m signed in.
Knowing what I am doing, I am fine with do the crime face the fine that seems to be going on, but what I don’t agree with, and what I think is the most important part of all the arguements here, is that the fine is so umproportional and that the laws and evidence surrounding these outragous fines all come from the same entity that is sueing everyone.
I don’t believe that an entity should have control of every aspect of a trial. The record companies pay millions to get thier laws passed. They then take one of their very own customers to trial over the very law they created. They use their own evidence that they created, or from a company they pay to create the evidence they want, to persuade a jury to give outlandish settlements. From start to finish the defendents never have a chance at a “fair trial”.
Reasoned Mind, you have said before that we “pirates” always bitch and never have an fix actions. Here is one for you. Think about this, maybe our society is moving from the society the music industry has grown used to. Maybe in todays society musicians aren’t going to all be millionaires living in giant houses, driving a bently and a lambo, flying in thier private jets, and wearing 50 thousand dollar outfits. Why is it that a CD is the only thing (that I can think of right now) that has stayed at the same price point for the past 10 years or more with no change in quality, quantity or anything else that would give a reason for no price change. DVD’s have had thier price drop over the years and now blu-ray is picking back up where DVD’s prices used to be years ago. If I were to go down to best buy right now I would have to pay $20 for a new album. If I went there to pick an album from 3 years ago, it would still be $20. But if I went to go pick up Independence Day on DVD it would probably be on there 9.99 sale rack, not the 29.99 it was when it came out. Why is that music has no dreprciational value? Why is it the music industry fought so hard with apple and itunes do digitaly distribute your music? Maybe the music industry is being ran by old timers who can’t adjust and take hold of a new era in technology where people can get anything they want whenever they want it. If the music industry and the television studios/movie studios started their own paid newsgroup service with tiered service based and GB allowances or whatever I would gladly pay, but, knowing the greed that those companies possess, I wouldn’t be able to afford a $1000 a month.
Sorry for the long post. Just needed to get all that out.
By the way, this “Your response is awaiting moderation.” is really crap. Why doesn’t TF show it first and if it is a spam, remove it later?
Nope, what he did was to tell people they are cowards and stupid for not following his reasoning and values.
If you look around what he suggest is already occurring, people are organizing and they even have representation in the government which spwaned a lot of other groups, and talking about groups what most people fail to realize is that there is many fronts to this in which the political and “legal” paths are just part and not the whole.
He calls others cowards but fail to realize he is doing the exact same thing he accuse others of doing when they hide, meaning he can’t see past his own nose and probably don’t have a grasp of how the world works because take out all the moral s***, the reality on the ground is that IP is free on the internet and has been free for the last 10 years openly not hidden under the carpet and no one came up with a solution that would maintain the status quo and infra structure of some corporations, that is the reality.
The world has changed, questions were raised and the only thing the unreasonable mind can do is bitch about how people is uncivilized and don’t understand how things work but he don’t understand either and make bold claims of his vision of the future spreading FUD and trying to make people conform to his vision.
He is a jerk that is all he is. He is not reasonable, he is trying to deter other from doing something that he feels is wrong but he do that attacking people and not trying to show a path and that is why he get so much heat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scandals_of_the_United_States
“a fight between 2 minorities, the majority is silent … as always.”
It’s obvious I’m not in the entertainment industry, isn’t it? No one pays me to sit here and read your freetard, anarchist crap. But if you support this bs you also have an accountability to its effects, like Joel and Jammie Thomas. I want none of that responsibility. I pay for what I take.
In sheer numbers, the entertainment industry is clearly a minority. Always will be. Even counting the truck drivers and secretaries, roadies and interns the industry is still a relatively small group of folks. But that doesn’t mean they don’t deserve the same respect of payment for their contributions that analog factory workers (for instance) receive.
But clearly in the extreme minority, too, is the pirate mentality. It’s been 10 years folks, if taking without paying was going to garner majority (revolutionary) support, it would have happened by now and the politicians would have to be listening for fear of not getting reelected. But that’s not what is happening either. Even the complaint of the Jammie and Joel convictions has been manifested only on a few handful of pirate websites. It’s reported, but very few care about the outcomes. It’s not even in the public discourse, actually, so little respect does your movement garner from the majority.
The vast sea of civilization in between the poles, the silent majority, makes their feelings known simply by NOT joining a new movement, by default allowing the existing standard to prevail.
THAT, I believe, is what we are seeing now.
And for any who would suggest that the silent majority is silent through lethargy or ambivalence, here in the states we have a long list of pro-active movements that have turned the status quo inside out time and again when it was something the people believed in. We’ve even compelled the resignation of a standing President. Our civil war. Slavery. Civil Rights. Women’s Rights. The abortion debate. Abu Ghraib. George Bush, for God’s sake. When people want change, they get it. Every time. It just has to be important to them.
Piracy will never catch on and compel your bs “free for all” because people in general ALL want the value of their work to be financially credited back to them, regardless of the medium or the product, and people understand intuitively that to get that kind of respect for product and service, they must also give it. Anarchy is not a common thread in humanity, it’s a sad manifestation of minority social misfit.
Paying for what we taking (or not taking it) feels right and just to us because it is in our human nature. The Pirate sense of entitlement to taking the value but refusing to pay will always have to run and hide, because it will never go mainstream.
But the punishments surely will. We are seeing that already. And the people are not complaining.
If you think world government and law enforcement is going to abandon the network as a reliable platform for communication, secure distribution and sales and just let it all go to anarchy and chaos, because they can’t stop you? (laughing) A few maladjusted percentage points on the fringe of society?
Yeah, right.
You’ll either gather the mainstream support and gather it very soon, or be legally ostracized and historically relegated as the freetards of the internet, a regrettable irritation for anyone in the silent majority with respect for justice, privacy and the shared belief of giving for what you take.
@peron,
I totally agree with you. The basic point is that if media were cheaper, you wouldn’t be pirating. I have not seen anyone make this point on this website, where all downloaders are portrayed as copyright hating pirates. I download, but at the same time, I am in favor of copyright laws. How is this possible? Well, I think the movie/music industry is pushing me towards downloading. I would gladly pay for a movie or cd, but not at the current prices. If a movie would cost 5 euros, I would not download anything, but much rather have the good quality hardcopy.
@Peron, 52, I think you know the answer to your question already. The mechanics of the recording industry are such that the profit margins on the winners have always underwritten the artists that do not meet with popular favor. And no one, least of all me, lobby’s on behalf of the wealthy. I’m upset with the cowardly mentality that has taken the middleclass, “working artist” and just crucified them these past 10 years. Then actually reply that “if you don’t like it and won’t do it for the exposure alone, get another job.” It’s a damaged mindset beyond comprehension, while they, themselves, (of course) collect their routine paychecks. It’s hypocritical beyond measure. It’s vile.
Industry will set its prices and people will buy or not. If entertainment can be forced to bottom tier pricing through competing with theft of product and service, every other industry, justly, should be subject to that and on the face of it, that’s absurd. No business can or should be forced to compete with theft of product or service. That’s where law enforcement comes in.
Truth is, I don’t really care of you can afford the entertainment you steal or not. If you can’t afford it, learn to do without it or pay the fine when you get caught. I’m with you if you struggle for proper affordable healthcare, but I draw the line well short of you believing you have some right to steal applied art as entertainment. That’s just plain dumb.
@6
Good response! So true!
Thats the main difference I see in this website, I believe that there main goal in to help people see the real truth about copyright issues and not believe these multi million dollar industry’s who only care about money, ruining your life is part of there job.
This website is an empowerment to the internet, its truly a gem among rocks.
Excellent Article BTW TF.
@53 (Odin): Some responses do appear instantly, it’s probably a word filter or something that makes it go on moderation.
@52 (peron):
While that is true, what Reasoned Mind is saying is that not enough people in our society are doing it like that. And he’s also saying that maybe it shouldn’t move in that direction. (This is where the pro-corporation slant comes in.)
That’s right, they aren’t. In fact, only a small percentage of musicians actually have that kind of clout.
@Mr. Biggs
Sorry let me restate that in a different way then; Maybe in todays society the record execs aren’t going to be millionaires etc. etc.
(stupid article updates.)
@60, 61 (Reasoned Mind):
Stop impersonating Reasoned Mind. XD
@57 (Reasoned Mind):
@ bolded statement: Who said it had to be anytime soon? Like you yourself said, it’s an uphill battle, but that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t happen.
This is why people think you have a corporate slant – you assume that every pirate will inevitably refuse to pay for even one song that he or she downloads. You’re right, this line of thinking will never go mainstream – because it’s not the main line of thinking of most pirates. (And if it is, you’re right, it shouldn’t be.) I’d gladly pay for what I download – if I had a credit card. (In fact, it is about excuses most of the time. But mine is legitimate, at least in my opinion.)
Just because they receive paychecks doesn’t mean that their purpose is to get paychecks.
And sorry, are you talking about artists under record labels or independent artists? Because if you’re thinking “artists under record labels”, then that line of thinking really is hypocritical. But if an independent “middle class” artist said that, chances are he’s speaking the truth of his own opinion.
@56 (Anonymous):
I tried a Ctrl+F. All results for “piracy” were part of the word “conspiracy”, and there was no heading for “copyright infringement”, or “copyright” at all, for that matter.
I know the government has had a lot of scandals; I merely said that none of them had anything to do with the copyright movement.
@63 (peron):
And then Reasoned Mind would respond, “Maybe the executives won’t be millionaires, but they shouldn’t be beggars on the street either, which is what the pirate mentality will inevitably result in.”
No prejudices, but it’s an accurate prediction, no?
Wow, but didn’t I make a, uhm, contribution to this here thread?
It wasn’t that evil was it?
Well if it was, could you pansies say so … ’cause I wouldn’t mind the label: Dumped, even by TF!
Impersonating? Im not impersonating anyone..
Get this through your thick skulls.. this is an anonymous commenting system.. everything said here amounts to exactly nothing. Its ridiculous the way people try to have an authoritative identity and argue on here like it matters.
I am you, you are me.. this is all a bunch of f*cking bull sh*t that people take way too seriously..
Sharing is here to stay, no matter how many laws and regulations you try to put on it.. its like drugs.. they will NEVER GO AWAY.
I don’t give a rats ass about your opinion that means nothing.. stfu and deal with it or just STFU.
@reasoned mind
“Industry will set its prices and people will buy or not. If entertainment can be forced to bottom tier pricing through competing with theft of product and service, every other industry, justly, should be subject to that and on the face of it, that’s absurd. No business can or should be forced to compete with theft of product or service. That’s where law enforcement comes in.”
Well, what this comes down to (it as been said before) is to either criminalizing all those millions of people who download, or to take the behavior of these millions as a signal that something in the industry is amiss. In my case, I take the latter opinion. You really need to believe that mankind is inherently evil to take the former opinion.
And the scandal about labels paying radios to play some artists and not others that is conspiracy?
If it will never catch on why all the fuzz then?
If it don’t catch on then there is no problem, if the majority pays what the f*** is the problem?
The problem is what you say is just BS and you know it that is why you come here and keep preaching all that BS to everyone. Calling people freetards, thiefs and etc.
But what you don’t understand or don’t care is that there is a public component in the market is called public domain and is were people do things the market for IP is a lot of bits and pieces the internet has proved it is not a market is a vector and is a vector for exchange of information and people use it, IP owners have no right to invade the public domain and demand anything and the vast majority concurs with that and that is why in Sweden people put the Pirate Party on the spotlight, that is why the majority of people said they didn’t want it another C-61 in Canada, that is why CNN, popsci, physorg all freetard sites as you put it had stories run. So the only guy who refuses to see anything is not the pirates is you.
The market for piss poor artists like yourself still exists don’t worry. No matter what there is always a dumb f*** that will by your s*** no matter how horrendous it is, radio didn’t kill the market it enhanced, video tapes didn’t kill the market it gave more revenues and so the internet will not kill the market and the people downloading are doing what they did well before a network was ever born, they are watching TV and radio, people don’t have the space in the HDD to archive every single song that they hear or every TV show or every movie it is just not technically possible today but it will be possible in the near future and still you will find morons willing to buy the next Britney Spears album with a photo that she has no panties on.
You can call what you want and get blue or explode it will make no difference people will share and will continue to do so as people will continue to buy s*** from the industry. But I’m not a costumer anymore, even if I couldn’t get it for free I wouldn’t buy(rent is more like it since I don’t own what I pay for).
And repeating the market for your kind unreasonable mind is still there you say is all free and you know it is not true people don’t storm stores to take CDs, DVDs, cups, t-shirts, caps, flops, board games, console games, mp3 players.
No you don’t see people doing that what you see is an industry that feels entitled to a market even though they never made any effort to make it happen, trying to grab more land at the expense of the people who have to let go their private lifes to let it happen, because every men, women and child is a pirate. Everyone listen to more music than they buy, everyone view more than they buy, everyone lend things to others, everyone throws a party, everyone copy and show what they learn to others and if that takes away an IP market I have no problem with it, because the owners of IP are parasites that don’t like to work for a living and keep leeching society and don’t bring real benefits to it not even commercial.
@68:
Pretty much agree with your second-last paragraph– even if the ISP’s do suck up with industry.
The perpetual threat of wireless meshes (with apparently longer wavelength broadcasting capabilities– legal or guerilla) gaining a foothold with the wrong move the ISPs make might prove fatal to them.
Reasoned Mind wrote:
“But that doesn’t mean they don’t deserve the same respect of payment for their contributions that analog factory workers (for instance) receive.”
Hey Odin, this looks like the ‘Special Pleading’ argument, using the word, ‘deserve’. What do you think?
As in; “The industry ‘deserves’ totalitarian control over everyone.”
I think I’d want to use something like a ‘Reasoned Mind’ moniker too, as an offset, if my arguments were thusly riddled. ;)
I think Odin’s response to Reasoned Mind really nailed the question. And Reasoned Mind just ignored it and continued his rants on “taking without paying”.
@Iverona – yes, but at the time it was “awaiting moderation” so probably very few read it … And by the time it was moderated, it was lost in the sea of other responses …
@63 Mr.Briggs – yes, some do, but what i meant was that ALL responses should appear instantly, and if they are flagged for moderation they can be removed later.
@65 Aug 17, 2009 at 19:26 by Mr. Briggs:
You want one scandal involving the industry?
I have one, when labels were paying radio stations to play some songs and not others that was a scandal was it not?
And there are so much more, from having speed tickets “cleaned out” to accounting schemes.
It was called “Payola”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payola
And if you want more scandals how about he 50 scandals from the music industry.
http://www.ugo.com/music/top-50-music-scandals/
Accounting fraud.
http://tech.mit.edu/V122/N32/long6-32.32w.html
Cher suing label.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4602442.html
- Miss appropriation of public domain.
- Extortion.
Universal vs. Nintendo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_City_Studios,_Inc._v._Nintendo_Co.,_Ltd.
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