http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_City_Studios,_Inc._v._Nintendo_Co.,_Ltd.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4602442.html

http://tech.mit.edu/V122/N32/long6-32.32w.html

http://www.ugo.com/music/top-50-music-scandals/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payola

You want one scandal involving the industry?

I have one, when labels were paying radio stations to play some songs and not others that was a scandal was it not?

And there are so much more, from having speed tickets “cleaned out” to accounting schemes.

@63 Mr.Briggs – yes, some do, but what i meant was that ALL responses should appear instantly, and if they are flagged for moderation they can be removed later.

Reasoned Mind wrote:
“But that doesn’t mean they don’t deserve the same respect of payment for their contributions that analog factory workers (for instance) receive.”

Hey Odin, this looks like the ‘Special Pleading’ argument, using the word, ‘deserve’. What do you think?
As in; “The industry ‘deserves’ totalitarian control over everyone.”

I think I’d want to use something like a ‘Reasoned Mind’ moniker too, as an offset, if my arguments were thusly riddled. ;)

Piracy will never catch on and compel your bs “free for all” because people in general ALL want the value of their work to be financially credited back to them, regardless of the medium or the product, and people understand intuitively that to get that kind of respect for product and service, they must also give it. Anarchy is not a common thread in humanity, it’s a sad manifestation of minority social misfit.

If it will never catch on why all the fuzz then?
If it don’t catch on then there is no problem, if the majority pays what the f*** is the problem?

The problem is what you say is just BS and you know it that is why you come here and keep preaching all that BS to everyone. Calling people freetards, thiefs and etc.

But what you don’t understand or don’t care is that there is a public component in the market is called public domain and is were people do things the market for IP is a lot of bits and pieces the internet has proved it is not a market is a vector and is a vector for exchange of information and people use it, IP owners have no right to invade the public domain and demand anything and the vast majority concurs with that and that is why in Sweden people put the Pirate Party on the spotlight, that is why the majority of people said they didn’t want it another C-61 in Canada, that is why CNN, popsci, physorg all freetard sites as you put it had stories run. So the only guy who refuses to see anything is not the pirates is you.

The market for piss poor artists like yourself still exists don’t worry. No matter what there is always a dumb f*** that will by your s*** no matter how horrendous it is, radio didn’t kill the market it enhanced, video tapes didn’t kill the market it gave more revenues and so the internet will not kill the market and the people downloading are doing what they did well before a network was ever born, they are watching TV and radio, people don’t have the space in the HDD to archive every single song that they hear or every TV show or every movie it is just not technically possible today but it will be possible in the near future and still you will find morons willing to buy the next Britney Spears album with a photo that she has no panties on.

You can call what you want and get blue or explode it will make no difference people will share and will continue to do so as people will continue to buy s*** from the industry. But I’m not a costumer anymore, even if I couldn’t get it for free I wouldn’t buy(rent is more like it since I don’t own what I pay for).

And repeating the market for your kind unreasonable mind is still there you say is all free and you know it is not true people don’t storm stores to take CDs, DVDs, cups, t-shirts, caps, flops, board games, console games, mp3 players.

No you don’t see people doing that what you see is an industry that feels entitled to a market even though they never made any effort to make it happen, trying to grab more land at the expense of the people who have to let go their private lifes to let it happen, because every men, women and child is a pirate. Everyone listen to more music than they buy, everyone view more than they buy, everyone lend things to others, everyone throws a party, everyone copy and show what they learn to others and if that takes away an IP market I have no problem with it, because the owners of IP are parasites that don’t like to work for a living and keep leeching society and don’t bring real benefits to it not even commercial.

I merely said that none of them had anything to do with the copyright movement.

And the scandal about labels paying radios to play some artists and not others that is conspiracy?

“Industry will set its prices and people will buy or not. If entertainment can be forced to bottom tier pricing through competing with theft of product and service, every other industry, justly, should be subject to that and on the face of it, that’s absurd. No business can or should be forced to compete with theft of product or service. That’s where law enforcement comes in.”

Well, what this comes down to (it as been said before) is to either criminalizing all those millions of people who download, or to take the behavior of these millions as a signal that something in the industry is amiss. In my case, I take the latter opinion. You really need to believe that mankind is inherently evil to take the former opinion.

Get this through your thick skulls.. this is an anonymous commenting system.. everything said here amounts to exactly nothing. Its ridiculous the way people try to have an authoritative identity and argue on here like it matters.

I am you, you are me.. this is all a bunch of f*cking bull sh*t that people take way too seriously..

Sharing is here to stay, no matter how many laws and regulations you try to put on it.. its like drugs.. they will NEVER GO AWAY.

I don’t give a rats ass about your opinion that means nothing.. stfu and deal with it or just STFU.

It wasn’t that evil was it?

Well if it was, could you pansies say so … ’cause I wouldn’t mind the label: Dumped, even by TF!

And then Reasoned Mind would respond, “Maybe the executives won’t be millionaires, but they shouldn’t be beggars on the street either, which is what the pirate mentality will inevitably result in.”

No prejudices, but it’s an accurate prediction, no?

@60, 61 (Reasoned Mind):

Stop impersonating Reasoned Mind. XD

@57 (Reasoned Mind):

You’ll either gather the mainstream support and gather it very soon, or be legally ostracized and historically relegated as the freetards of the Internet, a regrettable irritation for anyone in the silent majority with respect for justice, privacy and the shared belief of giving for what you take.

@ bolded statement: Who said it had to be anytime soon? Like you yourself said, it’s an uphill battle, but that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t happen.

Paying for what we taking (or not taking it) feels right and just to us because it is in our human nature. The Pirate sense of entitlement to taking the value but refusing to pay will always have to run and hide, because it will never go mainstream.

This is why people think you have a corporate slant – you assume that every pirate will inevitably refuse to pay for even one song that he or she downloads. You’re right, this line of thinking will never go mainstream – because it’s not the main line of thinking of most pirates. (And if it is, you’re right, it shouldn’t be.) I’d gladly pay for what I download – if I had a credit card. (In fact, it is about excuses most of the time. But mine is legitimate, at least in my opinion.)

They actually reply that “if you don’t like it and won’t do it for the exposure alone, get another job.” It’s a damaged mindset beyond comprehension, while they, themselves, collect their routine paychecks. It’s hypocritical beyond measure. It’s vile.

Just because they receive paychecks doesn’t mean that their purpose is to get paychecks.

And sorry, are you talking about artists under record labels or independent artists? Because if you’re thinking “artists under record labels”, then that line of thinking really is hypocritical. But if an independent “middle class” artist said that, chances are he’s speaking the truth of his own opinion.

@56 (Anonymous):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scandals_of_the_United_States

I tried a Ctrl+F. All results for “piracy” were part of the word “conspiracy”, and there was no heading for “copyright infringement”, or “copyright” at all, for that matter.

I know the government has had a lot of scandals; I merely said that none of them had anything to do with the copyright movement.

Sorry let me restate that in a different way then; Maybe in todays society the record execs aren’t going to be millionaires etc. etc.

@52 (peron):

Think about this, maybe our society is moving from the society the music industry has grown used to.

While that is true, what Reasoned Mind is saying is that not enough people in our society are doing it like that. And he’s also saying that maybe it shouldn’t move in that direction. (This is where the pro-corporation slant comes in.)

Maybe in today’s society musicians aren’t going to all be millionaires living in giant houses, driving a Bently and a Lambo, flying in their private jets, and wearing 50 thousand dollar outfits.

That’s right, they aren’t. In fact, only a small percentage of musicians actually have that kind of clout.

Good response! So true!

Thats the main difference I see in this website, I believe that there main goal in to help people see the real truth about copyright issues and not believe these multi million dollar industry’s who only care about money, ruining your life is part of there job.

This website is an empowerment to the internet, its truly a gem among rocks.

Industry will set its prices and people will buy or not. If entertainment can be forced to bottom tier pricing through competing with theft of product and service, every other industry, justly, should be subject to that and on the face of it, that’s absurd. No business can or should be forced to compete with theft of product or service. That’s where law enforcement comes in.

Truth is, I don’t really care of you can afford the entertainment you steal or not. If you can’t afford it, learn to do without it or pay the fine when you get caught. I’m with you if you struggle for proper affordable healthcare, but I draw the line well short of you believing you have some right to steal applied art as entertainment. That’s just plain dumb.

I totally agree with you. The basic point is that if media were cheaper, you wouldn’t be pirating. I have not seen anyone make this point on this website, where all downloaders are portrayed as copyright hating pirates. I download, but at the same time, I am in favor of copyright laws. How is this possible? Well, I think the movie/music industry is pushing me towards downloading. I would gladly pay for a movie or cd, but not at the current prices. If a movie would cost 5 euros, I would not download anything, but much rather have the good quality hardcopy.

It’s obvious I’m not in the entertainment industry, isn’t it? No one pays me to sit here and read your freetard, anarchist crap. But if you support this bs you also have an accountability to its effects, like Joel and Jammie Thomas. I want none of that responsibility. I pay for what I take.

In sheer numbers, the entertainment industry is clearly a minority. Always will be. Even counting the truck drivers and secretaries, roadies and interns the industry is still a relatively small group of folks. But that doesn’t mean they don’t deserve the same respect of payment for their contributions that analog factory workers (for instance) receive.

But clearly in the extreme minority, too, is the pirate mentality. It’s been 10 years folks, if taking without paying was going to garner majority (revolutionary) support, it would have happened by now and the politicians would have to be listening for fear of not getting reelected. But that’s not what is happening either. Even the complaint of the Jammie and Joel convictions has been manifested only on a few handful of pirate websites. It’s reported, but very few care about the outcomes. It’s not even in the public discourse, actually, so little respect does your movement garner from the majority.

The vast sea of civilization in between the poles, the silent majority, makes their feelings known simply by NOT joining a new movement, by default allowing the existing standard to prevail.

THAT, I believe, is what we are seeing now.

And for any who would suggest that the silent majority is silent through lethargy or ambivalence, here in the states we have a long list of pro-active movements that have turned the status quo inside out time and again when it was something the people believed in. We’ve even compelled the resignation of a standing President. Our civil war. Slavery. Civil Rights. Women’s Rights. The abortion debate. Abu Ghraib. George Bush, for God’s sake. When people want change, they get it. Every time. It just has to be important to them.

Piracy will never catch on and compel your bs “free for all” because people in general ALL want the value of their work to be financially credited back to them, regardless of the medium or the product, and people understand intuitively that to get that kind of respect for product and service, they must also give it. Anarchy is not a common thread in humanity, it’s a sad manifestation of minority social misfit.

Paying for what we taking (or not taking it) feels right and just to us because it is in our human nature. The Pirate sense of entitlement to taking the value but refusing to pay will always have to run and hide, because it will never go mainstream.

But the punishments surely will. We are seeing that already. And the people are not complaining.

If you think world government and law enforcement is going to abandon the network as a reliable platform for communication, secure distribution and sales and just let it all go to anarchy and chaos, because they can’t stop you? (laughing) A few maladjusted percentage points on the fringe of society?

Yeah, right.

You’ll either gather the mainstream support and gather it very soon, or be legally ostracized and historically relegated as the freetards of the internet, a regrettable irritation for anyone in the silent majority with respect for justice, privacy and the shared belief of giving for what you take.

He tells us that in order for the pirate population to gain any political or economical clout, we need to get organized.

Nope, what he did was to tell people they are cowards and stupid for not following his reasoning and values.

If you look around what he suggest is already occurring, people are organizing and they even have representation in the government which spwaned a lot of other groups, and talking about groups what most people fail to realize is that there is many fronts to this in which the political and “legal” paths are just part and not the whole.

He calls others cowards but fail to realize he is doing the exact same thing he accuse others of doing when they hide, meaning he can’t see past his own nose and probably don’t have a grasp of how the world works because take out all the moral s***, the reality on the ground is that IP is free on the internet and has been free for the last 10 years openly not hidden under the carpet and no one came up with a solution that would maintain the status quo and infra structure of some corporations, that is the reality.

The world has changed, questions were raised and the only thing the unreasonable mind can do is bitch about how people is uncivilized and don’t understand how things work but he don’t understand either and make bold claims of his vision of the future spreading FUD and trying to make people conform to his vision.

He is a jerk that is all he is. He is not reasonable, he is trying to deter other from doing something that he feels is wrong but he do that attacking people and not trying to show a path and that is why he get so much heat.

Can you point out even one scandal that had to do with piracy? Court cases do not count as “scandals”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scandals_of_the_United_States

I pirate based on my personal beliefs. I never pirate music. I don’t even buy but maybe 3 albums a year. I think music today has gone to crap. BUT, I do download TV shows. I don’t think I should have to pay to watch a show again that was shown on a FREE TV channel and shown on a website like HULU for free. They have made money on advertising off me twice, and at least with web advertising they know exactly have many people have seen the ad and can target ads if I’m signed in.

Knowing what I am doing, I am fine with do the crime face the fine that seems to be going on, but what I don’t agree with, and what I think is the most important part of all the arguements here, is that the fine is so umproportional and that the laws and evidence surrounding these outragous fines all come from the same entity that is sueing everyone.

I don’t believe that an entity should have control of every aspect of a trial. The record companies pay millions to get thier laws passed. They then take one of their very own customers to trial over the very law they created. They use their own evidence that they created, or from a company they pay to create the evidence they want, to persuade a jury to give outlandish settlements. From start to finish the defendents never have a chance at a “fair trial”.

Reasoned Mind, you have said before that we “pirates” always bitch and never have an fix actions. Here is one for you. Think about this, maybe our society is moving from the society the music industry has grown used to. Maybe in todays society musicians aren’t going to all be millionaires living in giant houses, driving a bently and a lambo, flying in thier private jets, and wearing 50 thousand dollar outfits. Why is it that a CD is the only thing (that I can think of right now) that has stayed at the same price point for the past 10 years or more with no change in quality, quantity or anything else that would give a reason for no price change. DVD’s have had thier price drop over the years and now blu-ray is picking back up where DVD’s prices used to be years ago. If I were to go down to best buy right now I would have to pay $20 for a new album. If I went there to pick an album from 3 years ago, it would still be $20. But if I went to go pick up Independence Day on DVD it would probably be on there 9.99 sale rack, not the 29.99 it was when it came out. Why is that music has no dreprciational value? Why is it the music industry fought so hard with apple and itunes do digitaly distribute your music? Maybe the music industry is being ran by old timers who can’t adjust and take hold of a new era in technology where people can get anything they want whenever they want it. If the music industry and the television studios/movie studios started their own paid newsgroup service with tiered service based and GB allowances or whatever I would gladly pay, but, knowing the greed that those companies possess, I wouldn’t be able to afford a $1000 a month.

Sorry for the long post. Just needed to get all that out.

“@ Ben, thanks for your reply and the time it took to craft it but like many others here, you work a similar sophistry, skipping my point and focusing instead on “loss statements” and “industry lies”.”

You are ignoring the cause – if there isn’t any harm, there is no problem with sharing. The cause of all these problems is the industry’s claim that they are losing so much profit. This claim was never proven, nor shown by any scientifically valid study (meaning containing raw data and methodology used and after favorable peer review). Yet, you are saying it is not important and we should just continue discussion as if it was true.

“But the fact remains, entitled infringement is not embraced by enough at this time … So while infringement (and every other form of online trespass) continues, laws tighten and surveillance grows… Ransacking was never a way to gain respect … this band of thieves? … It’s your smarmy entitlement to everything digital secretly taken for free that is wrong …”

In all of the above excerpts you are begging the question – WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO PAY FOR EVERYTHING (example: air)? It was never established as a fact. In fact, i can rebuke this unspoken assumption quite easily – we pay because there are not enough things for everyone, they are scarce. Law of supply and demand determines the price to pay. But behold – digital “property” isn’t scarce, so why should we have to pay for it? There is infinite supply, so the price is 0!

Another one:
“So the appearance is you simply have a chance to steal while the getting is good, so you do. And then cloak it all in “free speech”, “it’s only 1’s and 0’s”, “it’s all crap”(but I still want it same as always) or music and motion picture product suddenly becomes “information” and now “information must be free.” Grow a brain. Such horseshit.”

You are committing guilt by association fallacy by placing sharers together with thieves, when you never established that sharing is theft (see counterargument from scarcity above).
Also, there is a factual error: everything digital IS information – otherwise it couldn’t be copied. Read up on information theory.

“Instead, pirates will continue to whine like spoiled children, hide behind ever diminishing privacy laws, infringe and rain damage on the internet, all the while pointing fingers at anyone and everyone but never themselves.”

Ad hominem. Never did you disprove our concerns about privacy, never did you prove WE damage anything.

Need i continue?

I pirate based on my personal beliefs. I never pirate music. I don’t even buy but maybe 3 albums a year. I think music today has gone to crap. BUT, I do download TV shows. I don’t think I should have to pay to watch a show again that was shown on a FREE TV channel and shown on a website like HULU for free. They have made money on advertising off me twice, and at least with web advertising they know exactly have many people have seen the ad and can target ads if I’m signed in.

Knowing what I am doing, I am fine with do the crime face the fine that seems to be going on, but what I don’t agree with, and what I think is the most important part of all the arguements here, is that the fine is so umproportional and that the laws and evidence surrounding these outragous fines all come from the same entity that is sueing everyone.

I don’t believe that an entity should have control of every aspect of a trial. The record companies pay millions to get thier laws passed. They then take one of their very own customers to trial over the very law they created. They use their own evidence that they created, or from a company they pay to create the evidence they want, to persuade a jury to give outlandish settlements. From start to finish the defendents never have a chance at a “fair trial”.

Reasoned Mind, you have said before that we “pirates” always bitch and never have an fix actions. Here is one for you. Think about this, maybe our society is moving from the society the music industry has grown used to. Maybe in todays society musicians aren’t going to all be millionaires living in giant houses, driving a bently and a lambo, flying in thier private jets, and wearing 50 thousand dollar outfits. Why is it that a CD is the only thing (that I can think of right now) that has stayed at the same price point for the past 10 years or more with no change in quality, quantity or anything else that would give a reason for no price change. DVD’s have had thier price drop over the years and now blu-ray is picking back up where DVD’s prices used to be years ago. If I were to go down to best buy right now I would have to pay $20 for a new album. If I went there to pick an album from 3 years ago, it would still be $20. But if I went to go pick up Independence Day on DVD it would probably be on there 9.99 sale rack, not the 29.99 it was when it came out. Why is that music has no dreprciational value? Why is it the music industry fought so hard with apple and itunes do digitaly distribute your music? Maybe the music industry is being ran by old timers who can’t adjust and take hold of a new era in technology where people can get anything they want whenever they want it. If the music industry and the television studios/movie studios started their own paid newsgroup service with tiered service based and GB allowances or whatever I would gladly pay, but, knowing the greed that those companies possess, I wouldn’t be able to afford a $1000 a month.

Sorry for the long post. Just needed to get all that out.

Here is the solution:

Make. Media. Cheaper.

I am in the supermarket, and see the DVD/bluray rack. There are at most 100 different movies, and most of the recent ones are 20+ euros. I am not up to date on how good any of these movies are since, no imdb ratings are given.

Why would I risk 20 euros to buy a movie that I know nothing of and that might be horrible?

Now I am forced to download a poor copy of them and that is not stored on a disc and does not have all the nice ‘extras’. But at least, if I download a bad movie, I dont feel like I wasted money.

If these movies costs 5 euros I would feel much more comfortable in buying a bunch, and even if they sucked, I would not feel so bad.

If these movies costs 5 euros, I would not need to download them.

Make. Media. Cheaper.

Just a couple of points to make.

Just a couple of points to comment on.

First, it’s always interesting Reasoned Mind’s little pro-corporate rants vs the other comments on this (and other) topic. You can get that balance from the slants from the corporate propaganda that you see in the media daily vs to informed comments and jeering that you see on sites like this.

Hold on, you’re portraying yourself as informed commenters, and yet those corporations are slanted. Why not say that you have a balance between slants instead?

Sure Reasoned Mind is probably some corporate stooge that is paid to troll these sites, and while he makes his comments in a formal and intellectual way they are bereft of fact, he would like you to think that the corporations are our friends and that they are severely hurt by all the pirating that is going on.

Sentence fragment much…? I corrected it, but anyway.

Have you even read his comments? He tells us that in order for the pirate population to gain any political or economical clout, we need to get organized. He’s actually telling us a good way to get our point around. I don’t think a corporate stooge would do that, they’d just say “Stop opposing us, we’re the real government. We’re not going to tell you how to oppose us fairly, because we don’t want you to do that. Instead, we’ll just keep on shoving fines onto random people until you greedy bastards decide to stop.”

Of course this is pure BS. One just has to look in the news to see scandal after scandal involving corporations and government officials. They are not protecting artists or the industry, they are protecting their power over governments and just plain simple greed. So please keep spewing the corporate propaganda, you will be just making out our point for us.

Can you point out even one scandal that had to do with piracy? Court cases do not count as “scandals”.
Also, the industry is not protecting the industry? The industry is made up of corporations; just pointing that out if you didn’t realize…

Second point, the reason why we have this problem is that our governments is corrupt and big business wants it that way.

Oh dear, both sides genuinely believe that the other side is wrong and a bunch of lying bastards. Who shall I believe? Perhaps the government isn’t corrupt, and you’re shoving the blame you ought to be delegating to the copyright business onto the government instead.

Our governments politicians & high-level bureaucrats are protected. Especially the bureaucrats, because they don’t change on the whims of elections. In the government there is no transparency and no accountability.

Please back that up. I know that some government officials are honest.

The perfect environment for corruption to fester and reign. Then you add the Big Business, with their lobbyist with deep pockets and a cadre of lawyers on retainers. This creates a perfect storm of corruption where the government gets paid off, the corporations get what they want, and the public gets screwed!

Isn’t that what happens in those African countries where the demographics have degenerated? And in medieval England?

So, no I don’t think that corporations with their revenue in the billions are being hurt by internet pirates. I think it’s The Suits wanting more control over anything & everything that brings them power & control and satisfies their greed.

Both sides call the other side greedy. WTF?!?

So faced with that, Reasoned Mind, who the hell want to get brave to go public when you are faced with such a one-sided battle that you can never hope to win because the decision is already against you, because it’s been paid for by Big Business.

I’m not Reasoned Mind, but I can say that black people had a similar struggle in America 150 years ago. They also rebelled in secret, but eventually many of them moved up to Canada, where they were free from the tyranny of the slavery business, and then America had a civil war that ended in the abolishment of slavery. Okay, I’m drawing too many parallels here…

~~~thats awesome!!~~~

As for changing general public’s opinion, I think file sharing should be called file sharing and not piracy. Pirate Party sounds negative because piracy is attacking ships and killing people. Call your party a Filesharing Party or Free Information party or whatever and the general public would favor more.

And listening and viewing was already free well before the internet. Radio and TV are free and they was free and there are still dumb people who buy things from the industry and nothing that I say will change that some people just like to buy a lot even though they gain nothing from music besides the supposed happiness WTF is wrong with people?

And then there is the real market that is live performances, theaters, T-Shirts, cups, caps, toys, ad revenue, and a lot of others markets that could be exploited and milked and you tell us that the internet should be paid although there is no feasible way to police it or enforce anything in it what are you? a drunk?

The internet is robust, self healing and almost indestructible, it was designed to be strong against censorship and so it is, IP laws means nothing when you don’t have a very real way to enforce something is a tower made of cards is an illusion and the people just prove it to you.

People are not downloading less even in the U.S. that have one of the biggest numbers of shares in the world, in the world do you hear that? I think it was your BS exploding LoL

People don’t want to be in politics they don’t want to care about anything they just want what they want and found a way to get it and there is nothing, no law, no gizmo that will change that unless some demented mind try to pass laws that strips all privacy of all citizens and permit the government and private agencies to monitor how people take a dump. Do you see that happening and no one complaining?

The future is not about “IP products” is “IP services” if you can’t wrap your head around the concept please be so kind to direct yourself to the nearest soup cue.

People who honestly believe that everything digital now and in the future must be free of cost and unencumbered on the internet have a very long,

Wake up! it already is an there is nothing you or anybody can do about it.

Have you not seem the stats?

The only people bitching and moaning is you not us LoL

By the way bring it on the draconian laws. I would love to see the U.S. implement all of them first to show the world how it is done :)

Seriously go to the government and ask the most aggressive and intrusive form of IP laws that the human mind can think off and you’ll see what it will happen.

Not even people who are trying very hard like the Chinese government seems to know how to stop anything what make you think the rest of the world can?

First, it’s always interesting Resoned Mind’s little pro-corporate rants vs the other comments on this (and other) topic. You can get that balance from the slants from the corporate propaganda that you see in the media daily vs to informed comments and jeering that you see on sites like this. Sure Reasoned Mind is probably some corporate stooge that is paid to troll these sites, and while he makes his comments in a formal and intellectual way they are bereft of fact. He would like you to think that the corporations are our friends and that they are severely hurt by all the pirating that is going on. Of course this is pure BS. One just has to look in the news to see scandal after scandal involving corporations and government officials. They are not protecting artists or the industry…they are protecting their power over governments and just plain simple greed. So please keep spewing the corporate propaganda, you will be just making out point for us.

Second point, the reason why we have this problem is that our governments is corrupt and big business wants it that way. Our governments politicians & high-level bureaucrats are protected. Especially the bureaucrats, because they don’t change on the whims of elections. In the government there is no transparency and no accountability. The perfect environment for corruption to fester and reign. Then you add the Big Business, with their lobbyist with deep pockets and a cadre of lawyers on retainers. This creates a perfect storm of corruption where the government gets paid off, the corporations get what they want, and the public gets screwed!

So, no I don’t think that corporations with their revenue in the billions are being hurt by internet pirates. I think it’s The Suits wanting more control over anything & everything that brings them power & control and satisfies their greed.

So faced with that, Reasoned Mind, who the hell want to get brave to go public when you are faced with such a one-sided battle that you can never hope to win because the decision is already against you, because it’s been paid for by Big Business.

Well, the last time that I checked the internet this had 25 MILLIONS of ACTIVE filesharers ONLY on TPB. In other words, the internet has as MINIMUM 25 MILLIONS of ACTIVE filesharers, we know that there are a lot more, and obviously, we, the filesharers are an overwhelming MAJORITY against a SMALL MINORITY of parasites as you ‘reasoned TROLL’, sad reality for the MINORITY of scum as you who insist in protect an obsolete and corrupt industry, you see.

Another thing, if you don’t like the fact that the persons use pseudonyms on the internet, then, you must be the first in putting here your REAL NAME, your REAL ADDRESS and your REAL TELEPHONE number!!!, give us your example!!! :-).

BTW, I don’t live in USA, but I have some radical friends in your country that could make to you a “nice” visit… I wait for your real personal data… :-)

Exactly. For me this is not about grabbing freebies, it is about forcing the copyright industry to adapt their increasingly outdated and rapacious business model to the technological, economic, and social realities of the 21st century.

The law needs to be changed, doesnt mean free media across the board it means business should catch up with technology and demands of consumer.

The laws are clear and the effects of taking without paying are irrelevant to the discussion. Statistics from all sides can be made to “prove” almost anything.

People who honestly believe that everything digital now and in the future must be free of cost and unencumbered on the internet have a very long, very uphill fight ahead of them, and the 5% +/- Pirate Party registrations are likely representative of these so-called “majorities” you claim to hold in the court of public opinion. If there is delusion here, Pirates certainly share in an overinflated sense of their own numbers and self-importance.

So my message stays the same.

Pirates will either take the steps now to create a genuine groundswell of majority support that carries the day, or they will continue to be legislated against, surveilled, pursued, apprehended, tried and badly punished. And inevitably removed from the network, deserving every step if this is the best you can bring. The punishments will continue and more lives will be damaged on this path the pirates themselves are maintaining.

So until you, Ben, and all those that you claim to speak for 1) begin to act responsibly 2) gain majority Pirate Party support 3) stop actively supporting lawbreaking in sites like TF, and 4) take your grievances and your voters to the highest levels of government….until you take GENUINE ADULT STEPS TO DEAL WITH A GENUINE ADULT ISSUE….. you are part of the problem. And some of the liability for the damage rests with anyone who facilitates or encourages lawbreaking, or helps create a false sense of entitlement or security at this point in the proceedings. We all see far too much at this point in time to pretend any longer.

Frankly, I don’t think the pirate mentality has what it takes, Ben, and I think time will show this. Instead, pirates will continue to whine like spoiled children, hide behind ever diminishing privacy laws, infringe and rain damage on the internet, all the while pointing fingers at anyone and everyone but never themselves.

That’s why it’s high time for influential sites like TF to wake up, see the trends and act upon them as adults, or you’ll find increasing penalties and decreasing sympathy for anyone caught up in these legal/financial messes that are literally all of your own making.

Or……. you can just keep cheering pirates on while making money on your advertising and pretend that TF didn’t encourage an illegal mentality that played a supporting role in Joel’s and Jammie’s plights. We all make our choices.

um, the laws ARE bought…you`ve heard of LOBBYIST?

as for anyone else, if you personally know any do us all a favor…one bullet to their temple…

and as i said before the “recovered losses” are hardly ever paid back the creators…someone prove me wrong because that info always seems to be missing from these stories…

What started me off was the ‘Piracy is a Crime’ campaign in the UK several years ago (the origin of the ‘you wouldn’t steal a…’ film) where the ‘evidence’ used was quite obviously created (identical noise lines, and identical audience outlines, for stills taken from different films). My MEP, Arlene McCarthy, at the regional launch event for the campaign said the sale of Pirate DVDs funded the first attack on the WTC, which happened several years before hte first DVDs came out.

Basically, what started me off was the lies. I’ll tell you something else, every statement of loss made by the ‘industries’, is unsourced. Often the scope of the industries is overstated. Did you realise, for instance, that when it comes to the employment figures for the ‘creative industries’, they usually include retail jobs. Not just the ‘Banged Grain’ seller, but the wal-mart checkout person.

I read pretty much every study released on these topics (I actually have a 2gb flash drive with nothing BUT these types of studies on), and not just the US, but every country, even in other languages. I’ve noticed something with them. There has been NO study that claims a loss for those industries, that produces it’s raw data and methodology. Those that say there is little evidence for the losses, sometimes do. One of the most amusing ones is a study being done by a longtime friend, Andrew Norton (formerly of the US and International Pirate Party). We covered the beginning of his study last June here. He has provided all his data, and all his data comes from 2 places, the movie industry, and the government. The head of the Finnish Pirate Party did a study of the last 18 years of music sales in Finland, and found little coorolation between sales and p2p (thats on N2N), and again he used industry data.

Finally, you say we like to be hidden. I’m not hidden. Andrew is not hidden, he’s done many TV, radio and newspaper interviews worldwide. You are hidden. The data behind every industry study is hidden. Why is it hidden? Is it a vampire? sucking the blood from civilisation, and would burn a firey death is the cold light of day were to fall upon it?

In fact, ‘Vampire Study’ would be a good term for most of the industry ones. They’re filled with a glamour, very powerfull and intimidating, but easily killed by sunlight.

All:
fuck the M-P-double-A
fuck the R-I-double-A
fuck the suits behind the BSA
and fuck em all for the DMCA

Recycle Bin:
robot pirates, we get our shit for free,
parental advisory you’ll never fuckin see,
been a couple years since I seen an FBI warning,
cut it out cause that shit’s mad boring,
ya’ll fuckin dumber than that bitch from bad boys,
step to the Bin and it’s grandma’s sex toys,
I’ma just keep fillin up muh drives,
the ones that disapear when the lawsuit arrives,
all you fuckin suits can suck my balls,
when you get done you gonna make some calls,
I better see some changes or it’s time to fight,
you ain’t gonna manage my digital rights

Subrandom:
remember when anti-trust was the thing,
now you’re set up for downloadin Sting,
treatin payin customers like criminals,
pens filled up with music nerd animals,
buyin off senators left and right,
my vote doesnt count in this fuckin fight,
on the 56k had hundreds of songs,
drives partitioned like asses in thongs,
now its gigs of illegal content,
if I get caught im joinin a convent
fuck what you heard, it’s all a scam,
if they at your door burn em in a van,

Coaxke:
they got dollar signs in their fuckin eyes,
with heads in-between politicians thighs,
fat checks endorsed by senators that lie,
pullin fake dollar losses straight outta the sky,
and i don’t trust trusted computing,
they don’t want it around to stop looting,
the internet is the only place you’re still free,
if you disagree, just you wait and see,
you wanna lock down the web and throw away the key?
well, you better not touch my fuckin technology,
so back the fuck off or you’re fuckin dead,
yellin 1337 on a motherfuckin fed.

What is the wrong perception of 18 is called the silent majority. Going back in history it was never the majority who stood up and said “now it’s enough”. That majority always followed a very small minority and not in conviction, but as a way of life. Assuming any stance of the majority is bullshit because they don’t have any, they just are trying to live as happily as possible.

So in fact it are 2 minorities fighting each other. One corporate and one civilian.

I hope I never will see the day corporate companies get the same rights as civilians. Intel is now fighting an anti-trust claim of the EU on the basis of human rights. I don’t give a rat’s ass about that claim or Intel, but if they get hold of the human rights as a company, it’s the end of human rights.

Why do I say that, because we are in age where it shows that laws can be lobbied, can be written and can be abused by non-civilians and it’s not a pretty sight. One of those examples are the intellectual property right laws.

One of the first big NO-NO’s in capitalism was distribution rights granted by governments to private companies in a free market. It is impossible to eliminate distribution policies, but to subsidize it by law is not capitalism.

Intellectual property rights were not meant to be used as distribution rights. It’s a given that the creator is protected and is given the right to a fair income on it’s creation, but it doesn’t say you have to get enough income for the rest of your life for 5 minutes or 1 day or even 1 year of work. I don’t think anybody will argue that is fair but it’s how those laws work. Not every time, but enough to show they are abused.

Again it are 2 minorities fighting, one is powerful because of their money, the other one is powerful because they are human. It takes time, but to say “fight to death” or STFU is not very advanced, to say at the least.

30 Aug 16, 2009 at 07:28 by Dia

I wish you would stop claiming that downloading increases sales. That might be true if 5000 people download “Man from Earth” but it’s certainly not true when 5 million people download Heroes.

Of course it is true, it makes the work visible to a large audience that will want to buy something, if only 20% buy it, it is a win, because that is the theoretical ceiling of markets proven statistically and it is called the “rule of 20″(or pareto principle)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

already in your first main non-thesis paragraph you are generalizing like hell. pick up some new tactics.