[quote comment="317064"]How about we change that last part to “our hope to find a system of fairy compensating artist and content creators for their hard work and ideas that arguably make the world a more interesting place”[/quote]

I guess I also should be clear that I know that largely the “want to control and turn profit from” information overshadows anyone out there trying to do it in a more respectful and appreciative way… (I have never sued anyone for example heh) but Its not as black and white as your statement would imply… or as mine either. I work to promote respect for independent artist outside of the old system. I think that respect is an important component of any future that works well.

I hear edit buttons are cool… heh

You are very correct, that would have been incorrect. So no, I was not suggesting it was no longer with us only that it was with us in a greatly reduced (not necessarily less important) way. Just like I think that books as we know them are destined to change form and largely be less used by most people due to factors of convenience, cost, and ecology. Thats certainly not to say that good old paper books wont ever be printed in the future. I am absolutely sure they will, as a smaller but dedicated number of people will want to collect them or simply prefer the experience of reading a good book in a physical form. That choice will be modified by what you want to display on your shelf as a representation of you. people do it now but I think will become more aware of it and more selective. I bet your Vinyl collection says a lot about you as well. : ) If its a digital file, who cares… As rude and inappropriate as it is, its like that old joke dicks used to tell in high school about fat girls being like mopeds… “yeah, they are fun to ride, but you wouldn’t want to be seen with one.”

I imagime it will go like this…
Moby Dick = 50% hard cover sales, 50% digital download
Stephen Kings “It” = 2% hard cover sales 98% digital download

I like your assertion that we will have “books” based on digital paper. I am aware of this technology and have been keeping an eye on it. When that happens, it will really be the tipping point. I was having a bit of trouble following you but I think I you were maybe saying readers will never have the effect I describe. In other words, there will never be a perfect reader until we have digital paper. If that was indeed your point, I see it, and you may very well be correct. I don’t know though, one device on wich I do work, view video, read books, chat, listen to music, I think we may change our habits and abandon the “perfect form” at least while we are mobile.

So maybe you buy the hard cover of Moby Dick and it comes with the PDF. : )

[quote comment="316904"
The larger issue is still how we will reconcile information's desire to be free and our want to control and turn profit from it...[/quote]

How about we change that last part to “our hope to find a system of fairy compensating artist and content creators for their hard work and ideas that arguably make the world a more interesting place”

Are you insinuating vinyl is no longer with us? I hope not, because that would be incorrect, and it’s growth as a fetish-object will only continue to grow right along-side the digital media, because unlike all that it is something “real”, an essence-object, but I digress. We’ll have pure-digital “paper” before the “perfect” book-reader ever comes along. You cannot curl up with a computer, unlike a book. The form is perfect, the problem is our technology simply isn’t there yet, but last article I saw on Wired put it within 10-15 years for digital paper…

The larger issue is still how we will reconcile information’s desire to be free and our want to control and turn profit from it…

OK, just a quick comment on the “you’re not good enough to be paid thing”, I think it’s getting over used. I understand what you are saying, but that has yet to be proven. Not to compare, but many blues singers got screwed-over in the American music scene regardless of their talent. Guess they were poor because they all just sucked? Even though they inspired several whole genres of modern music? Nah, the recording industry did not invest in these men due to a perceived lack of marketability, but they gladly stole from them. People don’t tend to seek out the unique or the original it is to easy to have the new thing whispered in your ear. Independents may be great but that won’t matter a bit when you have to compete against the HUGE budgets spent to promote a band that is supposed to look and sound like they are “inde”. I am sorry but by the time yo go to BUY a T-shirt… that battle is over.

I could be wrong though, so 20 years from now when the dust has settled and a legion of talented self published/self promoted artists admit that “yeah, that was a great time for us!” and the ones that fell by the wayside are shown through a “lens of time” to have been all cheese. Then yes, I will congratulate you on your foresight. But for now, it just comes off sounding like a pointlessly aggressive statement. If we (artists) tell you in a calm and cool tone that we have concerns, then why spit this back at us every time?

[quote comment="315994"]
All those bands you had sleeping on the stage and using your shower. Did any of them “make it”? [/quote]

Yes, several bands that played that club for little money or just a chance to get in front of a few more people did in fact go on to have successful careers of varying degrees. But then it was a different time. And thats my very point. I don’t think some of them would have made it now.

[quote comment="315994"]
Promo freebies are largely pointless costs that record labels waste far too much money on.
In my experience, concert-going fans will BUY T-shirts (and thus provide free advertising) if the band is half-decent. [/quote]

I never said anything about record labels, big or small or “concerts” I don’t think you call 200 kids packed into a club a “concert”. Gig or show is a more accepted term here. The touring I am referring to starts in little clubs that are getting harder and harder to find, side stages at outdoor festivals that don’t pay at all. In other words, you are skipping ahead by several years and inserting a “magic happens here cloud” as I see it. I don’t mean to bust your chops but I just am not sure you know how it works. At least in the beginning, and assuming things haven’t changed phenomenally in the few years I haven’t been deeply involved with live performance.

[quote comment="315994"]
The new model encourages artists to knuckle down and do some proper work. The bands that spend less time drinking the rider and shagging groupies and more time putting on a decent performance
will be rewarded.[/quote]

This is so funny to me. Sure, some musicians are drug using jerks… so are some accountants, so are some web programers. We have our fair share of nimrods but I think you are missing something fundamental here. The musicians that selfish, greedy, or don’t have artistic Integrity are chosen to be promoted by the record companies BECAUSE they are easy to manipulate. There are many people who are serious about their craft and often I find them to be the ones not getting the attention because they don’t have those huge budgets behind them, even if they are a really good band while these people you point to get enormous advantage. It is a sick system.

[quote comment="315994"]
While it’s hard for new artists to make money on their first tour, it’s hard for *anyone* to make a decent living on their first job. If a few bands learned to grit their teeth and work, instead of submitting to the charms of drugs, limos and women, the audiences would appreciate the shows more and gladly pay for all the merchandise they can afford.[/quote]

This is very conditional, if you are an independent you could tour for many years and never break the tipping point that would allow you to book larger venues, command larger ticket prices etc… its much like a small business with a great product (100% independent band) vs a fast talking startup with an inferior product and a lot of venture capital (constructed “alt” rock band with a contract).

I don’t claim to know everything about this, mind you. If I was a total insider that would mean I would have crawled into bed with a label long ago, but I saw that I hated the way it worked and I wanted to try to find a way around the corruption and greed. I can’t say I have been 100% successful but I can be proud of the modest success I have had and I didn’t do a single shitty thing to get it.

So, wether you believe that or not… just keep in mind we are not all out here trying to get laid every night and staying high 24/7. Some musicians DO work hard and may actually feel the same way you do about a lot of this stuff.

By the way, in all the time I was involved with that Club, we only saw one outlandish rider (we promptly declined) and only had one band show up so stoned that I was pissed at them… I won’t say the name of the band because they actually went on to be one of the most famous and I don’t want to take away from that… but they arrived late, set up slow, sucked to high heaven, and only played for like 40 minutes. Heh Nowadays they are considered by many to be heroic in stature but I will always remember them as a bunch of asses that cheated honest kids out of a ticket price.

So yeah, we do have a few assholes, but oh my god! The bands I saw that SHOULD have made it! wholly crap. Forget about me and my shitty music… in comparison I am but a worm to some of these guys… and they toured and toured and recorded and gave away T-shirts and sweated and lived in a van I swear to you they did NOT suck! But they are gone. It’s not easy, its never been easy, the new model is not making it any better. And the worst part is, people seem to think we are all liars and scum… Drunkards and greedy bastards… I guess because of how those fakes and suits living off our ideas have ripped you off.

Honestly, I do other stuff now, I could stop making music if I wanted to or just start taking it less seriously… I am not really making these arguments for me. I am making them for future versions of me…

Common, give a little respect to the people busting ass to bring the music.

Oh and books… damn…. I hate helping to derail topics…. sorry. sorry. sorry.

I guess all TPB users will now be rejoicing at this flowering of a new age of information freedom…. once they finish downloading new release movies for free.

Sorry to drift off to the music thing again but I scratch my head every time I see this response. It almost seems like boiler plate copy that was agreed upon and never given a second thought. Is it from a white paper or opinion that someone wrote a while back? Because it sure doesn’t seem to take into account the actual experience of being a touring musician promoting an up and coming music career.

Yes, I can see how this works well for any act of a certain size that has been promoted and sold through the old corrupt system, But I doubt we will see the same result in the coming years. The economy you are describing is the pinnacle result of a successfully promoted career on a reasonably large scale with huge amounts of money involved.

Here it is from my somewhat informed point of view, being as straightforward and honest as I can be.

No one usually sponsors 100% independent or unsigned artist, why would they?

People don’t want to pay for T-shirts for bands that are new to them… it is traditional and expected for you to give them away to promote the band. T-shirts are like promo cash to some extent. People putting on events have to have something to give away, kids in school have to have something to wear, bands need walking billboards.

Tours cost a lot of money… even small scale tours. Based on my personal experience, and the dealings with the incredible regional and national acts that used to play at the small midwest club I used to help run many years back. I can honestly say that its tough to break even on even a small tour. At that club we would get a large range of acts because they all had to drive through our city going coast to coast and might as well play our club and make a few bucks… more importantly we had a shower and would let them sleep on the stage. At that time, the reason you toured was to promote…. uh, waitaminit.

Assuming you are a really great band. (please suspend disbelief, this is rhetorical) Its gonna take several years to reach a tipping point in popularity. Even with really hard work and a lot of luck this is a modest estimate.

If you are giving away T-shirts to promote….
If you are touring at a loss to promote…
and now if you are recording to promote…

Maybe I am further out of touch than I think, but thats why I keep popping up here I guess… to see what the plan is… other than chaos. heh.

And by the way thanks for not rippin me a new one this time around. I do come in peace. heh. I know you have to put up with a lot of people who just want to only see one side. I am not one of those people.

You might say I am looking for your help.

But basically that’s the same way as it’s working now, at least for me it is. I download everything that i might like, and if I do, i’ll definately buy it! On cd or vinyl, i don’t care.

But i understand your point that most probably lots of people won’t, and just go for it cause its free, and you dont HAVE to pay if you dont want to.

Ah well.. time will tell. :)[/quote]

Kudos to you and many others who support what you enjoy. The world needs more of ya bud!

I see an under-discussed issue here… I think there is a significant body of “middle of the road” works that people still want, but because they don’t see them as “great” they think they are not worthy of support. Art has a range of quality that seems to be getting over looked in these discussions; it simply doesn’t jump from “suck” to “rock”.

It sometimes seems to me like people in these debates want to draw a hard line where everything below is deemed not worthy of survival, even though we all consume and to some degree enjoy all the content throughout the range. I just wonder if this is leading us down a bad path. We LIKE this content… but we just don’t value it enough to cough up a donation… are we really being fair? Or is it the system of value that is out of whack due to years of abuse by publishers record companies, advertisers etc…

Lets hope people don’t get more jaded then they are now and support even fewer content creators.