In the beginning there was TELNET,
And it was good.

Then there was ftp and nntp (newsgroups) ‘87

Then came gopher, veronica, http and irc (’94).

Everyone has once copied something. By virtue, everyone is a pirate.

Even you.

You copied the text without permission – quoting requires that you acknowledge the source and have permission to do so. I think from the transcript of the conversations so far, you did not seek such permission.

All people, by law, are allowed to make a personal copy of a CD. This legislation WILL NOT change in Europe. So long as the industry still provides CDs for sale, cassettes or anything else, you will be unfortunately unable to prevent this fact.

Per the audience reading and any legal representatives, did you know that all CDs have a shelf life of about 8 years before the materials begin to degrade. It didnt use to be this way. In the beginning, the production quality was flawless. However the dye nowadays used (with re-recordables) is bio-degradable and the Aluminum plate is such a low quality that degradable beings the minute it is exposed to air and has a shelf life of around 8 years. The industry knows this and wants you to buy your albums time and time again. Does this come up in a court of law that you are buying a defective product? If someone told you the computer you are using would die after 3 years, would you buy it ?

Where-as you believe that the law is in the right, unfortunately you rely upon inexperienced judges with regard to the digital realm, notions or concepts outside of the standard rule of law and prejudices to bamboozle the ruling in your favor. You pay off liberty and law through corruption and bribery and when all else fails, you are no different to the bully in the playground.

Unfortunately for the time being, no-one is referring your industry to the monopolies committee of the EU, but believe me, that day will come.

When it does, i, for sure, will be there to watch every individual rejoice regarding how corrupt your industry really is.

You (by the psydoname .neo.styles|nvDX) do not have any right to reproduce any content above written. Doing so will violate copyright and intellectual ownership Copyright (C)2009 Laz.

Good luck Mininova !

On the other hand… if I download a film I like and then go to buy the dvd… that’s a win for all parties.

At the moment it just seems as if the industry is spewing out whatever it can whenever it can just because every poor soul that thinks “maybe it’ll be good” ends up paying the price and sadly, the commercial world is such that they have no redress. I can’t call the studios and say “HEY! THIS FILM WAS UTTERLY ABYSMAL; YOU SAID IT WAS GREAT AND IT WASN’T. LIARS. REFUND, NOW!”…

So… we’re left with a situation where someone will download a film… conclude that it’s not worth the money and delete it.

Sounds like the industry has had a free ride, and they want to protect it. Don’t get me wrong, piracy = theft = illegal. It’s difficult to escape that fact. At the same time it’s impossible to say that “piracy alone is killing the industry”.

The “industry” needs to quit dragging its heels. Improve content quality, perhaps more people will buy. Improve legal methods for downloading. As it stands a movie download can take as little as 5 minutes… it takes so much longer to go to the mall and buy a dvd. Where’s the incentive?

If a dvd didn’t cost me 14.99 it’d be a little less of a turd-sandwich. But that’s a different ball game altogether.

These lawyers need a slap. I agree, piracy is wrong… but these guys are just chasing the money.

I’m sure I recall a similar hubbub about the VCR. What ever came of that?

All i can say is that you can never stop piracy. Just go back in time, we used vhs players to recoard movies off the tele, people created bootleg vinyles and cassets. Then there was napster, after that we have bittorrent. You can not stop piracy. If bittorrent gets shut down there are still newsgroups which believe it or not usenet is older than the internet so have fun shutting that one down. If you keep forcing pirates down a hole then you will just agrivate them more. I honestly dont understand why we cant just have a subscription based programming almost like tv where we can have as much content as we like without drm for a monthly fee. I am willing to pay 10-20 dollars/month per family for all my music needs. Then I would also pay 10 more dollars for tv/movie material. Thats the thing you offer your alternatives but they are locked down with drm or just impracticale. What if I want an mp3 track and not an aac track, etc. A great example of this is to look at the russian mp3 services, why do you think they make so much money??? the offer the material at the right price.

No, RIAA are not pirates. They’re a CARTEL, in every sense of the word.

Lol,you my little retarded friend can produce no independant evidence for any of your claims.You never have and never will because there isn’t any.So piss into the wind all you like…but don’t try and tell me it’s raining!!.

“You are mistaken rampant copying (or for that matter unauthorized copyring) is only carried out by pirates. In the real world when one company wants to copy another companies work, they have to get permission and often pay for use for it.”

I’ve provided an example where some kind of “work” (discovery of demand for meat in a particular area) has been copied by a rival without permission. As a result, profits and opportunities were were lost. That fits your previously stated definition of theft. Yet, it also fits the common-sense definition of competition. How that?
I admit I love to fry IP advocates with examples like that. They demonstrably fail to quantify how much copying constitutes “stealing”, or how much “intellectual labor” constitutes a work worth IP protection. Enough to conclude that IP is form of socialist privilege handed out by the Big Government rather than a legitimate, natural form of property.

“This establishes a concept of ownership that exceeds mere semantics.”

No thanks, we don’t need elaborate concepts of ownership.

“How does this benefit the the market? When people actually have to think for themselves to create an innovative good, product, (as opposed to just ripping off someone else) this is what facilitates competition.”

Wrong. If I’m a customer looking for a cheap rip-off (and please don’t forget that rip-offs can still be improved upon i.e. be innovative) then I think I get a deal with THAT competitor, intellectual property be forsaken.

“Moreover, when successful products me with correspondingly high profits (as one would expect), this greatly encourages copyright holders to produce new and better products.’

Wrong again. The duration of state-granted IP monopoly (20 years for patents, 70+ years for copyrights) virtually guarantees that investment in new products/services will be as inefficient as it could. True, with state-granted protection there’s some incentive to innovate, but very little incentive to economize. The end result is, as we see, multi-million-dollar failures in the movie industry, bug-ridden proprietary bloatware, and pharmaceutical research mired in FDA bureaucracy.

“However, with piracy, this is not the case. Success is not rewarded with profits.”

Success will be rewarded with profits if the entrepreneur comes up with a viable business model that tackles the copying issue. What are those MBA degrees for, after all?

“Why bother? Piracy is killing competition by itself.”

Other than discouraging particular models of production, I believe it has zero effect on competition. On the other hand, copyright/patent monopoly is quite likely to strangle it as experience shows.

And, to make it clear, I’m not for “stealing stuff of the ‘Net”. I’m more concerned with my taxes being spent on IP witchhunt and my privacy being sacrificed to the Innovation Idol at copyright holders’ whim. What a pitiful distortion of capitalism this intellectual property boondoggle is!

The solution is very simple, Entertainment industry sort your distribution model out then give me unlimited access to your stuff for 5-15 euros a month and I’ll pay it even add it to my broadband subscription. You would get more money from me that way than I would buy in games/cds/tv shows and dvds per month. You can even put advertisements in there too and grab some extra cash. The problem is it’s easier to pirate stuff than pay for it

But stop with DVD regions and different release dates for regions. That’s almost guarantied to makes people pirate.

But then, free-market competition (which often implies copying others’ ideas) fits all three criteria for “theft”. If you open a meatshop and someone else opens a meatshop on the same street reproducing your business idea, then you rival is depriving you of:

You are mistaken rampant copying (or for that matter unauthorized copyring) is only carried out by pirates. In the real world when one company wants to copy another companies work, they have to get permission and often pay for use for it. This establishes a concept of ownership that exceeds mere semantics. How does this benefit the the market? When people actually have to think for themselves to create an innovative good, product, (as opposed to just ripping off someone else) this is what facilitates competition. Moreover, when successful products me with correspondingly high profits (as one would expect), this greatly encourages copyright holders to produce new and better products. However, with piracy, this is not the case. Success is not rewarded with profits.

Shall we outlaw competition?

Why bother? Piracy is killing competition by itself.

We are not anarchists seeking to bring about the fall of civilization.We are reasonable people who know right from wrong.B

Fall of civilization? Probably not. You just cause massive damages through neglect, selfishness, and a casual attitude about large scale theft. As far as copyright goes, pirates are very much anarchists. They have separated and cut themselves off from the rest of the world by their arrogant defiance of the law. While anarchists usually associated with social or political separation, piracy anarchy is simply digital. Pirates refuse to coexist with society’s rules and instead take refuge in the internet.

You know right from wrong? Gee, then maybe you can explain why you think you are not entitled to pay for anything?

20 MILLION people in the U.K download it is estimated.With these numbers on OUR side there is very little hope for you.Give up now and rest what few brain cells you have left.Your gonna be looking for OTHER employment shortly knob jockey!,lol

Shutdown the torrent sites, and most of it comes to a grinding halt.

However through manipulation and distortion it has become unjust,unfair,market distorting and harmful to FAIR competition.

Wow, looks like sarah palin has been teaching you how to hold a disscussion. Care to elaborate on how not letting people freeload isn’t fair? Oh that’s right, you can’t. You’re only slapping down the same tired old lines.

However through manipulation and distortion it has become unjust,unfair,market distorting and harmful to FAIR competition.

Wow, sounds like you’ve been taking lessons from sarah palin on how to hold a discussion.. Uhm.. it’s all about the harmful, the market, and.. the unjust!

ok…so that would be according to you right?.Well we see it alittle different.Piracy does not earn zero profits,infact if it weren’t for sharing you guys would probably be worse off not better off.

Ok, so let me get this straight, mcgyver. Millions of people avoiding paying for things somehow earns money for the people who are responsible for those things? Where is your logic? Have become so completely consumed by your need to download things that you feel the need to rationalize it point blank with zero thinking behind it? Honestly, how could you say this with a straight face? Those payments are where those profits come from and without them, how do you think they get their profits?

Your line of thinking seems to be

Millions of people avoid payment ? A miracle occurs ? Copyright holder profits from their work.

Or let me guess, the tooth fairy steps in and gives them a little green?

I own 500 dvds a 70 inch SONY 1080p tv,two 46 inch tvs a PS3,bluray,thousands in games titles,Ive spent 50,000 in the last 6 years on your media and hardware and all because i discovered BT which gave me the power to get what i want,when i want and play it how i like it.

You can’t pirate tvs, PS3s, or any other hardware. Many pirates claim that they purchase things after “trying them out” and act like they are not just an exception. If this were actually true, then there wouldn’t be such huge losses for the entertainment industry.

This is just so easy. Are you even thinking about what you posting?

If this were a movie script then your script would have plot holes you could drive a 18 wheeler through!

….No. Try “if your argument was a script, I just ran over it with an 18 wheeler.”

ok…so that would be according to you right?.Well we see it alittle different.Piracy does not earn zero profits,infact if it weren’t for sharing you guys would probably be worse off not better off.

I own 500 dvds a 70 inch SONY 1080p tv,two 46 inch tvs a PS3,bluray,thousands in games titles,Ive spent 50,000 in the last 6 years on your media and hardware and all because i discovered BT which gave me the power to get what i want,when i want and play it how i like it.

So much for sharing costing them money huh.You must be a lawyer but alas not a very good one.All your misdirection and misinformation is pointless.

If this were a movie script then your script would have plot holes you could drive a 18 wheeler through!

No i’m sure it isn’t.Especially when the c.e.o and his buddys get seven figure incomes.Ofcourse there’s always the leeches like you to pay and aswell and that all mounts up.No wonder the artist is hard up!

WRONG!

The original model when formulated was fair and just for its purpose and it’s day.
However through manipulation and distortion it has become unjust,unfair,market distorting and harmful to FAIR competition.

ANYMORE BULLSHIT?

WRONG AGAIN!

We are not anarchists seeking to bring about the fall of civilization.We are reasonable people who know right from wrong.But If an overwhelming portion of us deem a law unjust then we will fight for change anyway we can.

20 MILLION people in the U.K download it is estimated.With these numbers on OUR side there is very little hope for you.Give up now and rest what few brain cells you have left.Your gonna be looking for OTHER employment shortly knob jockey!,lol

MORE LIES!

It’s much cheaper to sell a million copies of 1 CD by 1 artist, than to sell a million CD’s by a million artists to a million different people.So once again it comes down to the fact you just dont like the competition!.

Physical property is not a requisite for theft.”

But then, free-market competition (which often implies copying others’ ideas) fits all three criteria for “theft”. If you open a meatshop and someone else opens a meatshop on the same street reproducing your business idea, then you rival is depriving you of:

1) Profits
2) The opportunity to grow and expand
3) The opportunity to obtain success

Shall we outlaw competition?
Now you may resort to the old and boring labor-theory-of-value arguments about negligible costs of copying etc., or just concede defeat.