BOOM! A bunch of men in black tying everyone up and throwing them in a big white van.

I also buy but not that much lol. And I know at least 5 more ppl that download b4 buying – those are the ones that already discussed the theme with me.

In any case, this failure of a industry represented in our community as MAFIAA (and merry friends) will keep failing to see this.

Thank you. Let’s just see if neostyles, reasoned mind, or even Someguy (whom I originally replied to) has anything further to say against my above arguments. However, I don’t think anything we say on here will change their perception of pirates as selfish freeloaders that leech off of other people’s hard work (even though that is clearly not true for many of us).

Also, I too have noticed theghostbay posting the same thing in every article. It’s posts like those that make me wish the karma system was re-introduced so we could bury spam like that. What he’s doing is just a cheap ploy to advertise is personal website (which looks very poorly put together too and of which I would NEVER go anywhere near because who knows what scams he may have up his sleeve given that he advertises so agressively).

@ theghostbay : stop your useless spamming please…

http://www.h33t.com

Think before you speak.

http://www.forexqs.blogspot.com

“So, you say that it’s alright for homeless people to steal food?”

Yes it is alright since the society should not let them be homeless.

“The sacred hunger, this long legitimate crime.” Leconte Delisle.

The purpose of societies is to help individual survive and not to fatten few parasites.

Others social species such as wolves and dogs help each others .

Why not human? After all this is a social specy too. Isnt it?

http://www.myspace.com/vulturgore

We will see about that.

Well done sir. Great post!

Also, who gives a crap if you are just duplicating something? Are are still avoiding payment, meaning the creators don’t get anything for their work. How can you not see the moral dilema with this? It’s selfish and it’s greedy.[/QUOTE]

That is STILL not “stealing”. It is “copyright infringement”. There is a difference in that stealing is a “criminal” offence and (depending on your country’s copyright laws) downloading is a “civil offense”. In some countries (like mine), it is perfectly legal to download for non-profit/personal use. In my case, the creators WILL get something for their work if I like the product well enough to put forth money for it (and don’t claim otherwise because you don’t even know me). Freeloaders do exist though (especially students that have very little money all thanks to ridiculously overpriced tuition fees and textbooks) but it is a fruitless effort trying to manipulate laws in order to milk money out of people who don’t want or can’t pay in the first place. That is not to say that once students graduate and get a decent income that they won’t start paying tribute where it is due.

[QUOTE]Uhm, if you actually knew what copyright was, you’de know that it’s a flexible concept.[/QUOTE]

Yes. If media wasn’t covered by copyright as well, the labels would have no grounds to file lawsuit so you are right there. I was only pressing the point that it does need to be changed to suit the times and holders SHOULD NOT have pretty much the same powers as actual law enforcement agencies because their own interests will always come before that of the people.

[QUOTE]You cannot seriously believe that millions of people download things just for the hell of it and that none of them would actually buy things if they couldn’t steal them off torrents? Pirates love to play the “one download does not equal one lost sale” game. [/QUOTE]

It’s simple. If there was no free download, then they would just do without and/or wait until a download became available. The “one download does not equal one lost sale” argument exists because some people that download do end up buying the media later on and for the ones that don’t, the industry never lost anything to begin with as those pirates used THEIR own bandwidth which they paid for to get the media (and as I said before, inventory remains unaffected).

[QUOTE]Look at gaming. Many times, the install base for any given game on the consoles and PC is very similar yet the revenue from the PC is much, much less, because of rampant piracy.[/QUOTE]

I look on thepiratebay and similar torrent sites and and I see plenty of pirated Xbox 360, PS3, Wii, etc games so I haven’t a clue what you’re talking about when you say it is only problematic on the PC platform. In fact it’s even easier to pirate on consoles than ever before since all you essentially need to do is install hacked firmware (whereas before, some basic knowledge of electronics was required in order for you to sodder a mod-chip onto the console’s main board).

The REAL reasons PC sales are down are because:
1. There is a larger market of console gamers.
2. There are many more games released on consoles (so no, the install base is nowhere near the same)
3. DRM is far more prevalent on PC games and that upsets A LOT of gamers (see the articles on Spore and Chronicles of Riddick – Assault on Dark Athena)
4. Crappy ports and/or broken releases ruin the PC platform’s reputation. This is yet another reason for me to download and test a game first to make sure the thing actually works properly.
5. The economy is poor now and PC gaming is FAR more expensive due to the price of the required hardware.

The gaming industry only likes to THINK that piracy is a MAJOR factor for the same reason as the music/movie/etc industry. At this point, you should really read that article on here titled “Study Finds Pirates Buy 10x More Music Online than Non-Pirates” (Google it!). I fit into that category in terms of PC games. I’ve bought way more PC games than ever before because I have had the liberty to give them a full test run first.

[QUOTE]So please, don’t tell me that just because something is digital it makes it okay and that it doesn’t mean lost sales. [/QUOTE]

I was referring to the acquisition method, not the media’s form. A lost digital sale is possible and would involve from either:
1. Someone hacking into an online music site and downloading their albums without paying. The online store’s bandwidth is thereby being wasted with no income in return.
2. Someone selling another artist’s work for a lesser price online and then directly profiting from it. Naturally a consumer will buy it for less yet the money is not going to the individual it was meant for.

[QUOTE]The selfishness of pirates causes REAL people (who are trying to work hard, something which pirates will never comprehend) to lose their jobs and REAL damage to the econamy. What’s so hard to understand about the importance of paying for things.[/QUOTE]
First off, I KNOW you have no solid evidence to back up your claims that piracy has cost people jobs. This is just mere speculation on your part but do feel free to link me to the solid proof if you have it. Secondly, people who are truly loyal to the artists they listen to will support them by:
1. Attending concerts
2. Buying merchandise
3. Sending donations

The difference between doing that and buying a CD is how the former benefits the artists directly and not some greedy middle-man who screws over artists and consumers alike.

[QUOTE]If people could “sample” the entire album, what’s to garuntee that they would pay a single cent to the artist?[/QUOTE]
And how am I supposed to know if something is worthwhile putting hard earned money out in the first place when I can’t sample it first? Why should consumers pay for something “they may or may not like” when they could buy something that they are “guaranteed to like”. The former model only hides those very poor albums that maybe have one or two worthwhile songs on them (yet you paid for all twenty or so).

[QUOTE]Far superior for you maybe, but not for the artists. Try and put yourself in their shoes. What if YOU depeneded on income and people were just freeloading off the internet, not paying you anything and calling “it freedom of culture” or some other load of BS? Pirates don’t know anything about hard work. They want everything to be spoon fed to them.[/QUOTE]

If my works were pirated, I would call it “FREE ADVERTISING FOR THE WIN!!!!!”. Why on earth do you think some artists will purposely put their works on torrent sites for everyone to download? Why do you think Jammendo even exists where everyone can download full albums put up by the artists themselves? The answer is because it’s the best way to get known without some greedy middle-man taking a massive chunk of your profits. I have discovered plenty of new artists through downloading who I would have never known I actually like had I just followed the music industry’s rigid model. I can then choose to do any of the three actions above that loyal fans do. None of which involve the music industry who do not create anything but TRUELY leech from other people’s hard work and then sue potential customers in the name of artists who probably would have never wanted any part of it.

[QUOTE]I guess it never occured to you that money doesn’t grow on trees and that consumers are the only ones that matter? What about the people who’s hard work went into what you enjoy? The industry depends on YOUR money. Simple economics.[/QUOTE]
If consumers are the “only ones that metter”, then the industry should stop ticking us off with their nonsense. Suing customers for ludicrous damages ins’t exactly going to entice others to support them. Neither is robbing artists of the share they are truely entitled to.

[QUOTE]Leeching off your pay? It’s THEIR work. What makes you feel like you are entitled? Anyone who takes without paying is parasite.[/QUOTE]
You completely misread what I wrote. I said the music industry is LEECHING off of the artist’s pay which is entirely true. The artists get paid far less per album sale than they deserve. Why would I want to support a business that does that anyway? Artists would be better off doing their own advertising and distribution.

[QUOTE]How are they supposed to make money if everyone choses to download instead of pay? Hmm? I guess you think money grows on trees? The pirate bay does not operate within the law.. Wow..[/QUOTE]
Once again, read what I wrote above about loyal fans. Also, the DMCA does not apply to the entire world (and THANK GOD for that). Most do not have to deal with that level of strictness because the country’s leaders know that laws should favour the people that live there and not some greedy businesses.

[QUOTE]Please, give me some hard facts. Show me an actual working “better” business model that can result in profits for artists. Also, please go learn what copyright and intellectual property laws are. You clearly don’t know anything, beyond the fact that you think you think that the whole world revolves around you.[/QUOTE]

It is not my job to come up with an exact business model. It is up to the industry to adapt. However, they are probably not going to because they want to hold onto their dying traditions where THEY were the monopoly and had full control over all artists and how music was distributed. It was either “use them or you don’t prosper”. Now the internet makes distributors pointless because artists can do it easily themselves.

I’m a 2x published computer book author; and both books took approx 9 to 10 income-less months of intensive research, writing and copy-editing to get ready. Yes, writing technical books is hard and time-consuming work. And it doesn’t pay well.

Now, my first book is long since out of print (the other is still available); and guess what? It’s being pirated on P2P torrents. Am I upset? No, of course not: the book is out-of-print, and nobody except some 2nd hand sellers lose anything if it is being copied. I not only don’t care: it’s the only way people can grab a copy. If I could get back the copyright, I’d immediately put it under a CC-BY-NC-ND license.

Would you accept a change in copyright law, so that works that are out-of-print (for more than, say, 1 or 2 years) shall automatically go to the public domain? That would be the only way to save culture that nobody is caring for anymore. I’d like this solution a lot, as it would bring some common sense back into IP laws.

Now to the 2nd book that’s still in print, and that is (slightly) pirated as well: does my publisher care? Of course he does. He invested money upfront to pay the copy-editor and layouter, and to pay the costs of printing, promoting and distributing (it’s a physical book). Do I care? Yes, but only slightly: I only get some 6% of the final price tag per book, so I do lose some money to piracy, but not fortunes — even though I could use every penny, as I’m not rich.

BUT I don’t care all too much: even though I’ve spent the 9 months without income to prepare that second book, it was a work of love, and I never expected that book to sell more than 20,000 to 30,000 copies anyway. So even if some pirates didn’t buy a physical copy (it was more expensive than I would have loved it to be, but that was out of my hands), so what? It will sell 10,000 to 15,000, and that’s enough to make many readers happy and help them solve their problems and earn a lot more money than I did helping them.

Yet all this is nothing compared to the benefits I reap from being known in my field, as I get invited for talks and being sought for as a freelancer from companies who would otherwise not have known me if some of their employees hadn’t illegaly fetched one or both of my books from torrents.

So, all in all, I think that copyright infrigement FOR NON COMMERCIAL PURPOSES isn’t all that bad. It does have upsides too.

That’s why I think that Copyright Law ought to be reformed: let copyright expire for works that become officially unavailable for a while, and legalize the right of private non-commercial copying. The second point is certainly debatable, but the first point should be a matter of common sense.

Instead of rabidly defending the IFPI maximalist point of view, why won’t you help us all create a better coyright law? If we don’t do this soon, the whole concept of IP will break down, and that’s not good either.

Boycott the RIAA and MPAA.

Stop these bullies from suing innocent people!

Work for the industry don’t you? I’ve been reading some of your posts and you try to justify the money the corps and artists make?

Punishing a single mother with 2 jobs for downloading 8 or so songs with 100K + in fines is a great way to prove your point.

Artist’s at least most are here for the art not money. People like you try to justify that we are stealing money out of their lambo funds.

Boy oh boy these poor artists… britney’s home was worth like $23 mil metallica around 40 mil.

These poor starving artists.

Same with the movie industry. For example….

Take Keanu Reeves; he made aprox 20 million per matrix movie. We “theives” are made to look like the criminals because we took away from the industry to pay for fire marshalls, makeup, sound, crew in general.

I got a great plan!!! We take 17 million of the 20 he made from each film and use the 17 million to pay the crew just from his pay alone.

These poor poor celebs. Opera in a 65 bedroom house and shes single! WTF is this world coming to, we are going to bankrupt opera if we read her stupid O magazine online instead of buying it.

Like EVERY SINGLE person who takes the side of the recording industry (including Reasoned Mind and NeoStyles as well), you also have no clue as to what “stealing” really means. When a poor person takes food without paying, they are physically removing inventory from the shop and therefore that shop loses out on whatever costs were required to obtain that food. This is NOT the same as when somebody downloads a song for free through filesharing because:

We’re not taking the side of “teh EvILK rekording industry”. We are taking the side of paying for your things. People like you have become so enamored with freeloading that you don’t understand the simple moral concept of self sacrifice or supporting those who bring you the things you enjoy.

1. You are not “taking” anything, you are making a duplicate of existing digital material while leaving the original in tact. The industry’s inventory remains completely in tact BEFORE and AFTER you download. They are not losing ANYTHING. Not only that, but you are using YOUR OWN resources to obtain the media so it is NOT at the industry’s expense at all.

What you are stealing are their interllectual propety rights. Whoever made whatever you are downloading has been granted exclusive rights as to how their work is to be distrobuted.

Also, who gives a crap if you are just duplicating something? Are are still avoiding payment, meaning the creators don’t get anything for their work. How can you not see the moral dilema with this? It’s selfish and it’s greedy.

2. Digital media CAN NOT be treated the same way as physical/tangible objects. Copyright law was established before the internet existed and has STILL not been fully updated to suit the times. It is outright moronic at this point to think that downloading = stealing. That’s record label propaganda babble.

Uhm, if you actually knew what copyright was, you’de know that it’s a flexible concept.

From wikipedia :
“Copyright gives the author of an original work exclusive right for a certain time period in relation to that work, including its publication, distribution and adaptation”

So clearly, torrenting and other forms of piracy are still covered by copyright, because they deal with distrobution. Just because something isn’t physical doesn’t mean it’s negligable. Those digital movies equate to lost profits/revenue.

3. One download does NOT equal one lost sale yet the industry loves to use this formula to calculate damages in their lawsuits. You can’t assume that every single person who downloaded would have instead bought it if the free version did not exist (I am not talking about people that re-sell other’s work online for cheaper prices because THAT IS wrong as they are profitting off of another’s talents). Like said above, some people wish to preview the ENTIRE album it all its glory first before purchasing. NOT crap quality thirdy second previews on Amazon (seriously, those previews SUCK!) and Amazon doesn’t even let everyone USE their digital distribution network (I know I wasn’t able to buy anything from it and I live in Canada).

You cannot seriously believe that millions of people download things just for the hell of it and that none of them would actually buy things if they couldn’t steal them off torrents? Pirates love to play the “one download does not equal one lost sale” game. Look at gaming. Many times, the install base for any given game on the consoles and PC is very similar yet the revenue from the PC is much, much less, because of rampant piracy. So please, don’t tell me that just because something is digital it makes it okay and that it doesn’t mean lost sales. The selfishness of pirates causes REAL people (who are trying to work hard, something which pirates will never comprehend) to lose their jobs and REAL damage to the econamy. What’s so hard to understand about the importance of paying for things. If people could “sample” the entire album, what’s to garuntee that they would pay a single cent to the artist?

Which leads me to my next point..

Just face it. Filesharing is a competing and FAR SUPERIOR cost free distribution model now and instead of actually adapting to exceed it, the industry is resorting to outlawing the technology entirely. That is why they keep attacking sites like the thepiratebay.org despite the fact that it operates perfectly within the law. Also, I don’t buy your argument that you need the industry to become mainstream. With the internet, you have the entire WORLD MARKET at your fingertips. ANYONE can view your website. It’s just a matter of making yourself known so people will visit (there are several ways to do this online as well such as Jamendo and even imeem). You don’t need any corporate bloats leeching off your pay (unless of course you have no talent since the industry seems to have a knack for making really poor artists extremely rich).

Far superior for you maybe, but not for the artists. Try and put yourself in their shoes. What if YOU depeneded on income and people were just freeloading off the internet, not paying you anything and calling “it freedom of culture” or some other load of BS? Pirates don’t know anything about hard work. They want everything to be spoon fed to them.

I guess it never occured to you that money doesn’t grow on trees and that consumers are the only ones that matter? What about the people who’s hard work went into what you enjoy? The industry depends on YOUR money. Simple economics.

Leeching off your pay? It’s THEIR work. What makes you feel like you are entitled? Anyone who takes without paying is parasite.

How are they supposed to make money if everyone choses to download instead of pay? Hmm? I guess you think money grows on trees? The pirate bay does not operate within the law.. Wow..

Please, give me some hard facts. Show me an actual working “better” business model that can result in profits for artists. Also, please go learn what copyright and intellectual property laws are. You clearly don’t know anything, beyond the fact that you think you think that the whole world revolves around you.

“So, you say that it’s alright for homeless people to steal food? They can’t afford to pay for groceries/fast food, so it must be fine for them to just take it right?”

Like EVERY SINGLE person who takes the side of the recording industry (including Reasoned Mind and NeoStyles as well), you also have no clue as to what “stealing” really means. When a poor person takes food without paying, they are physically removing inventory from the shop and therefore that shop loses out on whatever costs were required to obtain that food. This is NOT the same as when somebody downloads a song for free through filesharing because:

1. You are not “taking” anything, you are making a duplicate of existing digital material while leaving the original in tact. The industry’s inventory remains completely in tact BEFORE and AFTER you download. They are not losing ANYTHING. Not only that, but you are using YOUR OWN resources to obtain the media so it is NOT at the industry’s expense at all.

2. Digital media CAN NOT be treated the same way as physical/tangible objects. Copyright law was established before the internet existed and has STILL not been fully updated to suit the times. It is outright moronic at this point to think that downloading = stealing. That’s record label propaganda babble.

3. One download does NOT equal one lost sale yet the industry loves to use this formula to calculate damages in their lawsuits. You can’t assume that every single person who downloaded would have instead bought it if the free version did not exist (I am not talking about people that re-sell other’s work online for cheaper prices because THAT IS wrong as they are profitting off of another’s talents). Like said above, some people wish to preview the ENTIRE album it all its glory first before purchasing. NOT crap quality thirdy second previews on Amazon (seriously, those previews SUCK!) and Amazon doesn’t even let everyone USE their digital distribution network (I know I wasn’t able to buy anything from it and I live in Canada).

Just face it. Filesharing is a competing and FAR SUPERIOR cost free distribution model now and instead of actually adapting to exceed it, the industry is resorting to outlawing the technology entirely. That is why they keep attacking sites like the thepiratebay.org despite the fact that it operates perfectly within the law. Also, I don’t buy your argument that you need the industry to become mainstream. With the internet, you have the entire WORLD MARKET at your fingertips. ANYONE can view your website. It’s just a matter of making yourself known so people will visit (there are several ways to do this online as well such as Jamendo and even imeem). You don’t need any corporate bloats leeching off your pay (unless of course you have no talent since the industry seems to have a knack for making really poor artists extremely rich).

Popcorn is useless but give us joy still I wouldn’t pay for a $15 bucks pack of popcorn would you?

I do not believe you are trolling. You arguments are normal and sane, but they work for non-Internet age and the reason why not a lot of people agree with you is because they are probably a bit more informed on the way things work today.

1. Today the industry instead of helping the artist to become popular, only tried to take off their music and videos. Internet is the best tool for exposure, yet they are not using it. Actually, you do not need any label or publisher to use Internet.

2. Most musicians today are mastering their music at home studios. And we are speaking about big pop bands. Like Pet Shop Boys, for instance. Or almost anyone else, to be honest. Thanks to computer technology, you do not need to go to an expensive studio with analogue equipment – all you need is a computer, some midi devices and decent monitors.

3. Music is no longer has to be linked with physical carriers. Selling discs is no longer a business that is based on necessity. Thus, it cannot be successful on a larger scale. Only small scale sales are possible for people who want to collect favourite records.

As simple as that.

Nowadays labels and publishers do slowly change their model to 360: that is, not only sell cds, but also manage shows, other merchandise and corporate events.

I don’t really buy this pirates buy more music than non-pirates theory.

Actually I do think there is a bit of truth there somewhere and just because I do remember very vividly actually that fans tend to scream, pull their hair, get in harms way in the middle of a mob just to see their idol and do strange things like stalking. Devour every bit of information they can get on magazines, spend all their income buying CDs, DVDs, T-shirts, cups, caps, clothes, perfurme and etc.

Fans are a strange kind of people, where logic don’t apply at all. That is why I do believe people who download music over the internet probably are the same people who would go out of their way to see some music star LoL

I don’t buy music and I don’t download music from P2P I use youtube to listen to music over the internet but there is no one I would care to go buy a CD, and I don’t wanna to put more money in the pockets of people who would hurt me.

I’m happy to use services like Jamendo that have a lot of music licensed as CC commons so I know I will not get in trouble, and my time chasing artists to see my favorite ones are over, if they want me to hear them they have to release it with legal guarantees that if I send a sound track to a friend I will not be prosecuted.

“first?”

No: idiot.

“You should try to actually resolve things like adults, in courts.”

Yeah, suing is the adult way of resolving things. We have already established that you are an idiot. Why do you keep coming back?

“If that were the case, they would’ve long ago stopped supporting new and emerging artists”

What is your insane logic here? They do that to rip them off for money, idiot. You really are stupid. You are the one who needs to do the thinking. If you can…

“if they only asked for the money they felt was directly stolen”

Oh, now there is MONEY being stolen. For fock’s sake. I give up. I can’t take this crap. I have better things to do, moron.

“110: Interesting that my previous post, linking to proof against the allegation that radios aren’t prosecuted by the music industry was false, was moderated and deleted.”

“@85

Licensing fees:

http://www.radiomlc.com/

You might want to check google for your country’s specific laws on playing music on the radio/running your own radio station.”

Your post is still there. How can you be such a douche? And you said you work for EMI?

If they pay you for posting here, you should have been fired since a looooong time. But what should I expect, they are fools and so are your posts, lol!

You’re just confirming once again your and your companies’ idiocy.

Looks like you got nothing better to do than to come here and trolling around.

Get a life, you troll.

@ everybody: Let’s just ignore SomgGuy, he’s just a trolling idiot.

People like miners, garbage collectors, recycling plant workers, nurses, concierges, airport baggage-handlers, etc.?

Artists my 455. A word to the RIAA/MPAA/Mad Donna:

Go volunteer for your communities/charities, and/or work part time at any of the above occupations.

You’re out of touch.

Now before all you tards jump back on saying that wont happen blah blah. Your right, it probably wont ever happen but, the more and more people that download the more and more people don’t buy (look through the comments on this site for the amount of people that claim they don’t or wont buy compared to the amount that say they do before you bitch about this one to!) and with sites like this one with comments saying how bad drm is how bad the mpaa/riaa is and how everyone should boycott buying anything do to with any of these things the amount of sales will drop again. You don’t need hard evidence for this, again just scroll up and look through the comments of people saying don’t buy this or that. As for those of you that say copying isn’t stealing because the original isn’t touched, by that way of thinking it should be perfectly fine for me to walk into Sony take pictures of the patents for the PS3 cell processor and walk out with it then copy it again and post it on the internet for everyone to have, because after all the original is still there untouched. That wouldn’t hurt Sony would it? Don’t be such a turd.

For example: Madonna made $250M last year. If she spends $10’000/month (is that enough for food?) she can only last for 2000 years (say hi to Jesus)… and that’s with a 1-YEAR-INCOME only!!!

I mean, we’re talking about an INDUSTRY after all.

The money-motive sullies art and always will.

Sure artists have to eat, but so do the RIAA/MPAA/et al..
So what.

If you like the music of an artist/band, send the money DIRECTLY to THEM (a fair price for an album is about 1-5$, can be more for unknown/independent artists)