Private Torrent Sites Overemphasize Share Ratios According to Bram Cohen
Written by Ernesto on October 12, 2006Bram Cohen, inventor of the BitTorrent protocol believes that private torrent sites should stop tracking the ratios of their users the way they do now. He argues that the sites are overemphasizing the importance of the upload / download ratio, which fosters the creation of ratio cheating software, and calls it “extremely destructive”.
Bram Cohen told Zeropaid:
“[Leechers are] engaging in perfectly reasonable and non-destructive behavior and the site is trying to punish him for it, thus fostering the creation of clients which lie about their statistics. This is the site’s fault, and the result could do serious damage to the value of BitTorrent statistics generally. Sites which do this are being extremely destructive, and the way they grandstand about how they’re fostering sharing really ticks me off.”
According to Bram the nature of the BitTorrent protocol is built to prevent freeriding. Its Tit-for-Tat algorithm makes sure that you only upload pieces of the file to people who offer something to you. The more you upload to others, the more you receive. By overestimating the importance of the share ratio, it becomes almost impossible for some to actually reach a decent share ratio.
He continues:
“Just a little bit of threatening to ban people can get the overall balance to be very heavily weighted on the side of uploading, making it difficult for people to accomplish a reasonable amount of upload even if they try.”
To prevent overseeded torrents from “messing up” peoples ratio Bram suggest an alternative method to calculate the share ratio:
“When a client reports new downloads to the tracker, the tracker can multiply the amount by (number of current peers total - number of current seeds) / (number of current peers total) and add that to the ‘total downloaded’. This results in most people having a ‘ratio’ of more than 1, but that isn’t actually a problem unless you’re more interested in mathematical purity than practical behavior.”
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55 Responses
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that’s a great point!
Well, I see his point but the high focus on sharing/seeding is needed to keep the torrents alive. Take any private tracker and a smaller file, say 150-300 MB. Doesn’t take long before you have 800 seeds and 5 peers. If those 800 wasn’t there, speeds would be low and the torrent would die.
Furthermore I think that any normal person shares quite willingly. Removing the ratio count would probably only lead to cheaters cheating in a new way. If ratio isn’t important, they might hack clients to take control of traffic flow, thus increasing their own speed. Which of course also damage the Bit torrent protocol. There will always be cheaters and you can never get rid of them.
Lastly I will point out to the fact that there are trackers today with a bonus system. If actual upload doesn’t help the ratio, points are given for the time spent keeping the torrent active. These points can then be turned into amounts of data, increasing the ratio on that tracker.
Snapphane, I agree with you on the point of having the ratio use the amount of time spent as a connectible seed rather than the amount of data uploaded.
But I would like to point out that having 800 seeds won’t necessarily make your torrents faster. You client will only have so many connections per torrent (down and up). This number depends on your speed. So you never actually connect to all 800 seeds. Instead you will connect to 10 peers and seeds and start getting the data you need to finish the download. So you may get faster download speeds from 20 seeds, it just means that you have a better connection to those you are downloading from.
not to mention that as you’re seeding with the other 800 it takes for-freakin-ever before your ratio gets to 1:1
I hate that!
I’m not sure what private torrent sites have fostered your hate for the ratio statistic, but for all of my experience it has panned out quite well. Of the sites I frequent, sure, there’s emphasis on this one little number, but it’s necessary when you consider how many people would hit-and-run otherwise. The tit-for-tat that is built-in is nice and all, but it really doesn’t account for the entirety of the up-to-down balance BT aims for.
It really comes down to how much emphasis you yourself place on the ratio. A large majority of sites don’t even enforce a 1:1 ratio— that only comes into play when you’re vying for “Power User”, and otherwise you could maintain a meager .3 to .5.
Bit Torrent should rely to an extent on the honor system, I think that should come down to the issue of cheating. It’s really not a bother to leave any given number of torrents seeding to maintain a ratio, which is why ratio cheating is more or less entirely superfluous, only the rare few will even have to consider it.
Does anyone find is suspect that all of Cohen’s criticisms of private trackers and alternative clients tend to be heavily-influenced by the fact that his business model is underwritten by large, rich corporations? Sure, share ratios don’t matter as much when much of the data comes from CacheLogic or is seeded in part by the content providers’ servers.
But private trackers deal largely in pirated goods, and they have to keep that share ratio enforced or everything will fall to crap. I know that on good torrents, it’s done downloading before my upload rate has even reached 1%—often less. So I don’t know what color the sky is in Cohen’s world, but here, it’s blue, and “tit-for-tat” is more theoretical than realistic.
My share ratio varies dramatically. I can get a file that downloads in a few hours, and after 2 days is only at 0.4 share. While only a few actually ever exceed 1.0 share. I’ve come to the conclusion that the share ratio is an artificial number that is worth about as much as a lead cent. (Novelty value only)
My ratios would eventually look better if I didn’t occassionally reboot or turn off bittorrent when I need more bandwidth. I think I’m a reasonable user that shares more than fair, but I won’t become a slave to ratio nazis.
In the long ago past, BBSs would refuse to let you download files until you’d uploaded a new file the same size or larger. The end result was lots of people uploading lots of garbage files with unique names just to get upload credit. It looks like a version of this is happening to the bittorrent world if people are talking about ratio cheating.
In my opinion, the problem isn’t the downloaders, it’s the ratio nazis.
wow guys, It’s not that hard to share
“By overestimating the importance of the share ratio, it becomes almost impossible for some to actually reach a decent share ratio.”
it’s not that hard lol
actually, i like having the share ratio. i like knowing i’ve shared as much as i’ve downloaded from a particular BT community.
I’ve been a member of demonoid.com for a long time now … and I’ve had no problem maintaining (over time) a > 1 ratio.
My habits may be somewhat responsible for that, however. Typically, I’ll go online on a weekend, and load up a whole bunch of downloads, then leave uTorrent active for the rest of the week.
All my downloads eventually complete, and then sit there as seeds until they hit a 1.5 ratio, then I take them down.
Sometimes I dip below a 1 ratio for a while if I download a bunch of big torrents, but usually I’m up somewhere around a 1.6, which is more than fair and easy to maintain.
Barasawa, I think the situation you describe is the perfect application for this algorithm : slow download speeds, low level of uploading, and no real way to get back the ratio on what you’ve already downloaded. Obviously you shouldn’t be punished if you downloaded and seeded something in good faith and no-one wants it. I have to disgree, however, that this algorithm is healthy for private sites in general. I think a 1:1 ratio rule (obviously a mathematical impossibility in a general situation) weeds out poor sharers and those with poor connections, and for a certain type of private site, guarantees an environment of hundreds of high-speed sharers with continuous seeds. I agree that the ideal is that each will share according to their means, but you only have to take a look at download speeds on public sites compared to high-level ratio-controlled high-traffic private sites to see that in practice people hit and run unless they are forced to do otherwise. Indeed, most of the public-site-using bittorrent-savvy people i know are amazed to hear that i seed something after it’s downloaded, let alone continue to seed it for several months.
its not that hard to share, youre correct, potato, but the problem is when the ones with faster uploads seed like crazy and make it so the people witht he slower uploads cant get their individual torrent ratio up close to 1.0 even before theres no more leechers to grab the file. this one site im on i can get say a 350mb file in a matter of 15 minutes but then take all night and next day long to get the ratio up to like 0.5 and by then theres no more people to upload to.
if there was some way to make it so the faster pipes and slower pipes had the same chance of getting a good ratio that would be a better system. the way ti is the system favors people with the 10mbit and 100mbit seed servers or fiber optic while screwing the little guys out of their ratio.
Ratio minimum limits are so low anyway that if you have to cheat to raise it, it just means you’re not likely to share anything in the first place. It’s really for people who can never figure out port forwarding and their firewall, and therefore, make them perpetual leechers. It is very annoying as a leecher to see selfish people leave right after they get a complete copy with .05 ratios because it means you’ll have to wait alot longer to get a copy. If bittorrent ratio limits were eliminated and it was entirely an honor system, torrents would still be seeded by considerate people and the bittorrent system would still work, but not as well.
The problem with ratio is that user with better computers ( big hard drive, better internet connection ) , so with more $ , will benefit from it. They will be able to keep the file longer on the hardrive without burning it , and can let the computer seed during the night..
This is not easy system , because user with a worst internet connection will not have the life easy. Some ISP have ratio on the download-upload too.
If you reach your monthly rate , you have to wait to seed again .. is a infinite loop.
Some trackers are stupid and see also inactivity as bad , you cant take long vacation or you are kicked out.
Im a member of alot of those site , im lucky enough to have a good connection , so i can keep seeding . Im very frustrated with ratio but i want to stuffs , so i figure out a way to send stuffs with big files to maintain my ratio , because popular files will not be uploaded fast because of too much seeders. This keep the trackers with news stuffs . I think uploading new torrents help, but it’s not always easy to find good stuff that that trackers don’t have already and that will be downloaded too. And when too much users share the torrent you post , you can stop it because you will not seed it fast.
Maybe you put some valuable files ,but they are not big . Users post great comments , but you will never see you ratio change because of the size. Maybe if the trackers see that this file is damn popular, it will be intelligent to boost your ratio even is the file is small. You have already the possibility to send ratio to others but the trackers can make it automatically too. It can be also work with users vote on the quality of the torrents or something like that.
Ratio will always be there , just to keep the activity level , but can be optimized.
ruh ro you have angered Oink haha
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#386043 by OiNKDonor (cowboy and proud! cowboy) (Administrator) at 2006-10-12 XX:15:08 (X hour ago) - [PM] - [Quote]
gkenobi wrote:
digg sucks.
I’d add to that:
Bram Sucks
I bet he was banned somewhere and now he’s all mad.
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nice. you stand on the mans back and tell him he sucks. fyad oink.
Who on earth decided programmers get a say in how their codes are used? Once Pandora’s Box is open, it’s mind-bogglingly naive to think it can be closed again. Someone shove him back in front of a computer so he can make some more good stuff. Less talky, more codey.
It’s almost impossible to maintain 1:1 ratio on “that music site we all like” with normal usage of downloading what you want and then keep seeding as long as there are peers who want it. There isn’t much you can do about it except maybe to 1) start uploading torrents or 2) start looking for new torrents which you may not even want to download but suspect that are going to be popular.
Usually there are either 1 seed and 0 downloaders when you can be lucky if it gets popular one day, or 10-20 seeders and 0 downloaders that isn’t going to do any good for your ratio. Either you download it and hope that you can get the ratio up on some other torrent, or skip it.
The big problem with ratio sites is that if you seed to a ratio of 1.75, that’s .75 denied to someone else, as a file only has a finite number of copies made.
There’s also the fact that your ratio gets absolutely hosed if you come to a torrent late. Sure, you get it quick, but you can’t recoup the damage done easily, especially on sites like one I’m on where if you’re ratio is below 1.0, you have a 10 hour delay on downloading torrents. That means by the time you get it, all those 1.0+ whores are done, you get the file in record time, and because those whores are all… Well, whores, you stand very little chance of recouping the damage. It’s a system of haves and have nots. The haves get all the ratio benefits, the have nots get stuck with lower ratios, and can’t really get them higher, because of the way the site is setup.
It’s really sad to see the ratio thing come back. I remember back in the BBS days, if I connected to a BBS that had a share ratio (or worse still, where you had to upload before it would let you download anything) I’d immediately disconnect. Sharing is fine. Ratio’s on BBS and torrent sites emphasize greed. A conditional exchange. “I’ll share with you, if…” when the utopian scenario is “I’ll share with you unconditionally.” Sites like Mininova prove that ratio free can work wonderfully.
A site I’ve been associated with for ages dropped ratios completely last year because of everything I’ve just said. It comes down a lot to why people are running torrent sites. Is it to share the wealth with the community? In the case of the site I just mentioned, that’s why they dropped them. The site is there to help people get access to stuff they couldn’t ordinarily, not to force people into sharing if they don’t want too. Other sites with hardcore ratio enforcement, that’s not their first priority.
Another site I’m on has no ratio enforcement to speak of. If there’s something you want that’s dead, you send a mass reseed request. You’ll always get at least 3 people come on with the file. No ratios, no threats. Just a nice, sharing community.
Ratio is a pointless concept, and to see the creator of the software agreeing with me was a rather nice sight to be greeted by today.
One final thing ratios don’t take into account: Folk on capped connections. If you’re limited to X number of gigabytes a month, having to upload 50+% of what you download will very soon add up.
I just make sure i upload more than i download. seems easy enough to me…
Drood, what are some of those sites if you dont mind sharing links possibly?
exactly as Drood has pointed out its the rich get richer and the poor stay poor in most cases.
im not old enough to have connected to BBS’s but i have come across the odd Ratio FTP a while back and i didnt use those either i got the stuff elsewhere.
to me ratio enforcement is just a bunch of nerds having power over a lot of people and they like that. the really strict hit’n'run policies and ratio rules and all that.
one site im on you get a warning if you dont seed for 3 days or something after youre done with the download. what if you have to turn off your computer or something dies or go on vacation or something. another site though was good about it, i got a hit’n'run and i PMed a mod there and explained i was doing something in my computer and had it shut off for a while and he said cause i had a decent ratio and was polite about it he removed the warning. just some of this policing over the ratio is getting kind of out of hand on a lot of sites. one site i got a warning for stopping seeding on a file like an hour after i stopped cause i had to do some other stuff and couldnt be using torrents for a while. he was actually there watching the people connected and saw i dropped off right away and got me for it *shakes head*
also what about people that share a connection with others int eh house and have scheduled torrent times? they get screwed royally the way it is set up now.
stephan kind of said it all. Dont download more then you can upload. People talk about greed, but who is the greedy one, if you have to download more then you can upload?
I’m a member of several private sites, including the music one people keep refering too, and i dont have any problems, i dont even have a seedbox or a 10mbit upload, strange how that works for some people, but others just want more and more and more, and for free, without shareing back.
Ratio sites arent greedy, its you people who want it all without giveing anything back that are greedy.
Yeah, OiNK is killing me..
“You are on Ratio Watch because your ratio is too low. You have 3 days 9 hours to upload 1.09 GB more (required ratio is 0.25).
While on Ratio Watch, maximum additional download before account is permanently disabled: 9.86 GB”
Also, kinda funny, I am wearing a BitTorrent t-shirt right now :)
If you can’t live with a ratio, if you won’t be able to maintain it, if you won’t give something back to the community (eg uploading your own stuff), then private torrent sites aren’t for you. Go use Piratebay. Big deal. Boohoo.
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