Perhaps copyright laws are up for a change, no doubt about that, I agree completly, but until such time, we cannot go around taking products just cause we feel like it. There is such a thing as ownership. These corporations do own RIGHTS to these products. How long they have rights to them? Well I guess thats up to these laws, and we sure could change them (any law can be changed), but until such time, again, we cannot go around just taking products for free.

If your answer is YES to download free products, then thats your choice. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Donations and what-not is not part of buying a product. When you donate money, you dont donate expecting something in return.

Im sure there are artists out there that take donations and give away free music, of those I agree, go download their products from the NET, as their product is FREE, and they make their money thru donations and concerts and merchandise.

What we talking about here are not those types of artists. These are corporations that make money off the PRODUCT, not from donations, therefore, the product is not free for download. Why? Because these corporations put a copyright on the product.
Could these corporations take the same road as those free artists? Perhaps, but thats not what they are and what they do.

Trying to compare 2 different individuals (or in this case an artist to a corporation) is not likely to be viewed correctly. Your mind is set to artists that make their money on donations and concerts and what-not.
These types of corporations are not similar to your free artists. They spend millions of dollars on ADs and the creation of the product, therefore, creating thousands of jobs. In any given time, corporations have hundreds, and sometimes thousands of employees. They need to be paid thru the products they create.
Your free artist is just himself. Perhaps he may have a few people here and there, but thats it. Think about a world without corporations. Our unemployment would be half the world. Sorry to tell you, but that does not sound to delightfull to me. Are these corporations greedy? More then likely, but thats where your freedom comes in. You choose to buy their product or not. If you see a corporation that greedy, then dont support their products. Dont download and take their products. Thats one way to teach them to stop being greedy. (then again this is wishfull thinking)…

“Scuze, I dont get this. Can you ellaborate more on this? I dont want to assume (again)…”
Currently copyright for something is the life of the author + 70 years, don’t you think that is WAY too long? I think it should be until someone successfully gets around the DRM or whatever to use it however they like, that would then encourage the corporations to make better forms or DRM, and would boost sales dramatically as everyone will buy it to try and crack it.

“The question is, should you be allowed to download products (that are copyrighted) for FREE???”
The answer is yes. There is such a thing called donations, it allows you to give an artist/NPO/whatever money without having to buy their product (or buy it another time.)

Funny thing is I don’t distribute it, I have nothing to put onto a torrent and upload, there are many torrents fir the same stuff, me uploading it would just mean that the same amount of peers are divided among even more torrent files.

You are missing the point here. Im not talking about YOU (you alone). We talking about all the people that share software/movies/music.
They all share the same common interest. To download paid products for FREE, therefore, all of them distribute the product for FREE.

I am aware of the fact that is not a criminal case, but a civil one. Im not a lawyer, so I cant speak for this, BUT, what happens if you get charged with piracy and they fine you say XYZ amount of dollars and you cant pay. Not sure if you go to jail or not. I was under the impression that you would, but maybe im wrong on that one. Again no a lawyer so I cant say. I just assumed….

You said:

The difference is how long it takes them to break it, maybe I.P. laws should change, so the object in question’s copyright expires when the DRM is null and void, myabe these corporations will then make better DRM rather than

Scuze, I dont get this. Can you ellaborate more on this? I dont want to assume (again)…

Im sure they could spend lots and lots of time on protection, etc etc.
I believe what they are trying to do is to teach some of the people a lesson, so that others will follow piracy. That wont work, on the contrary, it makes people even more pissed off, but again that irrelevant. The fact is they take a product and distribute it for free. They loose money. They will be pissed off, hell you would too if someone took your work and distribute it for free, whereas, you could have made money off it.

I dont deny that many of them (corporations) are *******, but thats not the question here. The question is, should you be allowed to download products (that are copyrighted) for FREE???
My answer to that is NO. Will people do it? Heck yeah, but you know its wrong. What you choose to do, its YOUR choice, just dont go all nuts when the corporations start to sue you for taking their products.

Funny thing is I don’t distribute it, I have nothing to put onto a torrent and upload, there are many torrents fir the same stuff, me uploading it would just mean that the same amount of peers are divided among even more torrent files.

“I understand again why you think this way. You are not in US, thats one, you dont understand how corporations work, thats two, and you want everything for free, thats three.

Well Ill give you the first 2, but the third one, sorry, you need to learn how the world works, and that is MONEY.”
I never stated I wanted everything for free, I get a satisfaction in earning things and being able to afford things when others can’t. That is my main drive for cash, otherwise I would never dream of earning money, I could just live off welfare, like some many others do in the world.

“OK, point taken, but I would not talk that easily when someone shows up at your door with a warrant for a court date, you loose and spend some time in jail. Im sure you will do just fine in jail (I hope that ownt happen to you, seriously now)…”
Filesharing is a civil case, not a criminal case, so unless they changed the laws while I was last sleeping, I wouldn’t go to jail for it.

“Yes you are correct, I give you that. They could improve it, no doubt about it.
Remember, what one man can build, another can break. In other words, anytime a person builds something (in this case a layer of protection), someone else will come up with that idea of how to break it.”
The difference is how long it takes them to break it, maybe I.P. laws should change, so the object in question’s copyright expires when the DRM is null and void, myabe these corporations will then make better DRM rather than

1. do illegal shit to catch people filesharing copyrighted material
2.sue
3.????
4.profit

You said:

“These corporations don’t own the software, they own the RIGHT TO DISTRIBUTE IT, so all they do is put that movie onto a DVD, slap on copy protection (which if they didn’t want us to rip they could honestly just improve it) put it in a case and ship it out to your local stores.”

Bingo, you finally get it. Quite amazing, really.
They OWN the RIGHT TO DISTRIBUTE.
Do you know what that means?

That means, they own the right to make copies and distribute that movie to anyone, anywhere (either consumer or retailer).
You are becoming them. You are NOT the corporation. You say you despise them, yet you are THEM (in a way).
They distribute the software/movie to the public (for a price of course).
You do the same. You buy a copy of a movie and them distribute it to the mass (internet users).
The only difference is you dont charge for it.
The corporation does. The only reason they do and you dont is because THEY MADE the product. It cost them MONEY to make it (and lots of it).
It cost you a fraction of what it took to make that product, therefore, it does not give you the right to distribute that product for free.
You own the right to view and enjoy the product, NOT to distribute it to others for free.

I understand again why you think this way. You are not in US, thats one, you dont understand how corporations work, thats two, and you want everything for free, thats three.

Well Ill give you the first 2, but the third one, sorry, you need to learn how the world works, and that is MONEY.
Not sure what country you in, but in this country we have a say:
Money talks, bullshit walks…

That may sound a bit rude to you, but thats reality…

You said you understand them, and that you dont fear them???
OK, point taken, but I would not talk that easily when someone shows up at your door with a warrant for a court date, you loose and spend some time in jail. Im sure you will do just fine in jail (I hope that ownt happen to you, seriously now)…

“You honestly believe they cant improve DRM………..”

Yes you are correct, I give you that. They could improve it, no doubt about it.
Remember, what one man can build, another can break. In other words, anytime a person builds something (in this case a layer of protection), someone else will come up with that idea of how to break it.

My grammar is just fine. Perhaps our way of talking here is a bit different, and if you dont undertand something, please ask. Ill be more than glad to elaborate further…

How many times will I have to tell you, stealing REMOVES THE ORIGINAL, that is if a store has 10 copies of Transformers, stealing a copy would leave them with 9 copies, when I go out and buy Transformers, then rip it to my HDD and upload it to The Pirate Bay, that is not stealing, I bought the movie, but then I copied it and uploaded it, allowing millions to download that ONE copy. These corporations don’t own the software, they own the RIGHT TO DISTRIBUTE IT, so all they do is put that movie onto a DVD, slap on copy protection (which if they didn’t want us to rip they could honestly just improve it) put it in a case and ship it out to your local stores.

Also, could you please improve your grammar? It is really difficult to understand half of what you say….

“Its a natural way of humanity, to hate something you don’t understand or something you fear.”

I understand them, I do not fear them, even if I got a DCMA notice (hey, what would I care, last time I checked I didn’t live in the US, and US law doesn’t apply here :D) rather, I despise them, and so I will not fund them, will use what is available to get something that they shouldn’t have any power over. If I could, I would happily pay all the people who worked to make it far more than what I would buy the product for, they deserve it, not the corporations.

Are you so naive that you honestly believe that these corporations can’t better protect the products they sell? It would be much easier to just improve DRM technology, but you can make a lot more money suing everyone for every fucking cent they have.

You got it partially right.

Yes, the internet its FREE INFORMATION, and still is.
The internet its NOT free downloads for paid products.

There is a difference. Information is free (well minus the darn ADs, lol), but NOT products.
You are sick of America doing business they way they do, but thats their choice. If you dont like it, dont support them by buying their products. Meanwhile, dont download them either, because if you do, then you just contradicted yourself.

Simple…

You opposing them, and taking their product is not of understanding.

You may oppose them, fine, many do anyways, because of their business believes and what not.
But you taking THEIR product. Hate them, dont hate them, you still taking their product, so in the end, YOU STILL want what they make.

If they were not here to make these products, then you would not have it. You would not watch that movie, or this movie, or listen to this music of that music.

You see, you dont think about this rationally. You think about this with hatred and confussion.

Many people hate corps out there. Its a natural way of humanity, to hate something you dont understand or something you fear.
These people want to make the most money ouf of each movie/song…

Yep, they are greedy, no doubt about it.
Yep, they suck, no doubt about it.
Yep, they reap all the benefits, no doubt about it.

But its still THEIR product. If they choose to make a product and protected with certain types of rights, guess what? ITS their right to do so, as its THEIR product, NOT yours.

If you were thinking on a larger scale of things, perhaps you would understand that it is STEALING.

Since you think with hatred and disagreement, then you will not think its stealing.

You forgetting something.
Its a product that you take. No matter how you take it, you still take a product. It does not matter if they have MORE of the product to give others, you still taking a product for free.
No matter how you look at it, YOU TAKING a product. Let me repeat. You taking a product, therefore, its stealing. Simple, very simple.

Im happy you enjoying Valve’s games and what not. Thats THEIR way of doing business.
If you dont like the way microsoft does business, than dont buy from them. Its quite simple.
If you dont like all these companies, then dont buy from them. At the same time, dont download their stuff either, because if you do, then you just contradicted yourself.

Lets put it in simpler terms.
You hate a company. You dont like their way of business. Great…
Dont buy from them. Dont download their stuff either.

You like a company (IE Valve). You download their stuff. You buy their stuff. Great, I agree with you and you are not stealing anything, as you support the company by buying many of their products.

See the difference?
When you hate a company and its ways of business, you dont want to support them, therefore, you dont buy their products, BUT, you download them. In other words, you taking from a corp products without paying for it.
Why dont you go download and take things from the companies you like so much?

Its quite simple you know. You can defend your downloads all you want, but you dont use the right decisions to make that choice. You use all the wrong decisions (IE hate the company, dont like the company, company suckx etc etc)…
Therefore, you dont rationalize your thoughts completely due to personal views and desires.

“The fact of the matter is that anytime you copy COPYRIGHT product, you stealing. You taking something from someone that cost them money, and you getting it for free.”

I accidentally the whole thing, what should I do?

“If you want a movie so badly, why dont you go buy it?

If you want a piece of software so badly, why dont you go buy it?

Can you give me a reason for these actions (your right to download)???”

If I bought them I’d just be supporting the companies I so openly oppose (eg; EA, Time Warner, Sony/BMG) and help fund corruption and twisted copyright. I would rather pay the same amount and have all the money go to those who produce it (director, writer, actors – but some of them get payed way too much, film crew, guys in effects, etc.) Those are the people who deserve all the money. In 1998 music corperations tried to make mp3 players illegal, as they thought it would ruin their profits, they have also done the same with DVDs, CDs and video cassettes. Once they figured out how to make even more money out of them they did all they could to get people to buy them. Valve is currently the only PC gaming company that I would consider buying PC games from. They have gone about things the right way with Steam and the source engine. As long as I sign in with my account I could have my games on 50 different computers. I can also have all my achievements and save files consistant across all of those computers. They also often have free weekends (where you can play a game for that weekend without buying it) you can send people a several day unrestricted demo of a game and they also often have discounts on games and have value packs for some of the games. The thing that I really love is, since most of their newer games run on the source engine files become smaller if you have more of the games. More corporations should learn somethign from Valve.

and now with that filter the government wants to put in…

what happened to a free information internet, as was originally intended?

i believe iinet will lose this one, but i’m crossing my fingers that a miracle happens…

If you want a movie so badly, why dont you go buy it?

If you want a piece of software so badly, why dont you go buy it?

Can you give me a reason for these actions (your right to download)???

Im aware that you have to defend your right to download for free. After all, who the heck does not want a free movie, or a free piece of software.

The fact of the matter is that anytime you copy COPYRIGHT product, you stealing. You taking something from someone that cost them money, and you getting it for free.

Its quite simple you know…

I produce a piece of software. I spent time on it. Took me say 3 years to make (persay).
I want to get paid for that time. Why would I want YOU to get it for free, when its (the product) demand is soo high, everyone wants it and everyone wishes it had it.
Let me put it another way.
Pixar goes and spends say $200M on a movie that takes 3 years to make (persay).
Who gives you the right to go and take it for free?

So your right to download free software, YES, I agree, share alllll you want.
To go and download a movie that costs money to make while you get it for free, ITS ILLEGAL, and will always be ILLEGAL.

Which part of that DONT you understand?
Download all want, im not against it, shoot everyone does it, but to go and download things that are COPYRIGHTED and it states right there on the screen before you watch a movie “COPYRIGHT IS PROHIBITED” is not legal, hence, illegal, hence BREAKING the law.

Do I agree with that? NO
Would I prefer free software? Hell yeah.
Would I want to see movies for free? Hell Yeah.

The fact of the matter is that all these products are NOT free. They cost money to make. They cost money to deliver. They cost someone’s time to make and think about how to make it.
Everyone’s time is precious. Everyone’s time cost money.

You going to download my product for free will infuriate me and will make me go and make it illegal for you to do it again.
Since its the internet, well its quite hard to do the above stated, as internet is endless.

Do people do it? Yes
Do people try to defend it? Yes
Do people want free products? HELL YEAH
Yeah, you send me a video link to someone that wants to defend HIS right to download products for FREE.
I bet if that person would spend months and months of his time on a new product WITHOUT any other income, you will see how he will change his idea and start to charge for his products.

You have a point, I totally agree, and that is, PEOPLE want free stuff.
I dont say its going to change anything by blocking these sites. Hell eveytime one sites goes down, another comes up.
But the morale of the story is, ITS ILLEGAL and STEALING. No matter how you look at it.
If a product costs money and you get it for free, thats stealing. Its simple, VERY SIMPLE…

We will have to agree to disagree then.
I know you wrong with your free downloads, you know you wrong with it too (but do it anyways to defend your right to get free products), and thus we will never come to a conclusion…

here go see one of the Pirate Bay founders talk in Stanford so you can grasp better what it is all about.

And realistically what are rights good for if you don’t have the means to enforce them anyway?

Look at anonymous P2P already operational all over:

- Omemo
- Winny
- RShare
- Share
- Herbivore (in trials)
- TOR Hidden Services(that make webpages anonymous)
- I2P
- GNUnet
- Marabunta
- Mute
- Waste
- Turtle F2F
- RetroShare
- Summi
- Rodi
- Perfect Dark
- Off System
- Hamachi
- ExoSee
- GigaTribes

A share of zero is zero. You can get mad and talk until you turn blue it’s just not going to change anything.

And who knows maybe in the future people will have 3D printers in their houses and will be able to produce anything they want from raw materials intellectual property will be nothing, services will be everything.

Society will have conquered the barriers to production and will have to evolve to the next step that sociologist call “Service Age” after conquered the agriculture and industrial ages :)

You are wrong ideas can’t be owned that is why copyright applies to distribution and the right to copy and that is why is called copyright otherwise it would be called ownershiprights for pete’s sake go read about copyright somewhere.

About the IEEE those are standards and refer to patents, patents only apply to physical implementations that is why is so damn expensive to patent things because you have to foresee every type of implementation that there could be and patent all of them to secure and invention have you ever patent something?

So if you want to say you are in on a standard yes you have to pay royalties to those who created the standard but that doesn’t mean you could not implement your own based on those standards if you come up with a different form that do the same thing.

And everyday I let people copy my ideas that is why I put everything under the GPL or CC commons.

And again you cannot own and idea just the right to some channel of distribution if there is no channel there is no rights are you mad? The public domain is not a channel of distribution there is no single point to control if there was TV and radio stations would have done it already. And the sad reality is that people don’t own the ideas they have they can own physical manifestations of that idea but not the idea it belongs to society.

You said:

Ideas are not products they cannot be owned is like water on the ocean once is there you cannot try and negate access to others because someone thing it owns part of the ocean it will lead to civil unrest, what people can do is make a product around it and capitalize.

Ideas can be owned. Thats why they call it copyright. You have an idea, you copyright it and nobody else can touch it, unless they pay you royalty fees.
TVs, and Computers and Cars and all products out there. They are not build from one idea, one concept. They are build from dozens and dozens of ideas, and each one, if copyrighted, they have to pay royalty fees. Look at IEEE, if your system has IEEE standards, which most do, the copyright holder must be paid.

You cannot make a product around my product and capitalize on it. Thats copying a product, therefore, reasons why you have all these lawsuits.
You want to make money, free from royalty fess? Make up your own product, with your own idea. Why you gotta make a product around mine? You now taking my idea and making a few small changes and viola, you making money from me (in a way).

If you had an idea, and you copyright it, would it be wise that some corp makes a product around your idea and then goes and makes billions of dollars??? I dont think so…..
Actually, I KNOW SO. I know you would not like it. Just think about it, Im sure you will understand it when you go thru these issues in your own life…

I understand your concept. If your concept were to be the right one thru many companies, than we would not be here to complain about these issues.
The fact of the matter is that these companies set their own rules. They put copyrights on their products. They put limitations on their products. We the public cannot force them and tell them, that they have to change those rules or else we will download their products for free, MEANWHILE, let it be lawfull.

They put COPY IS PROHIBITED on their products. They do it so that nobody can profit from it. Thats their way. If that kicks them in the behind later on, so be it, but thats THEIR rule. You can chooce to obey it, OR, to break it.
You break it, you get in trouble.

If the free products are soooo great, why dont you just use the free products? Why do you still go download photoshop? Or products that costs money? There is the problem. People like free, but they want the product that costs money too. Sorry cant have it both ways.

Yes sharing is great, but, if the product is FREE. If the product is NOT free, and is copyright protected, well guess what? Sharing is no longer allowed.
Communities share many programs and movies and music, etc etc, but those are the ones that are FREE. The paid products are COPYRIGHTED. That means you cannot make copies of it.
I understand your concept to download and share, I belive in it too, but you also need to understand the concept of PAID PRODUCTS, COPYRIGHTED PRODUCTS, products that costs money cannot be shared. Thats THEIR rule. Its their rule, not yours.

These ISPs should work together with the law to break the bad downloaders.
Ill tell you why. When you witness a crime (persay), and the police asks you questions and you deny any information to them, guess what? Thats against the law. They can put you in jail for that.
Well, kinda same thing here. The ISP is aware of where you connect and what you download etc etc. They are the ones having the information. If the law says we need that information and they with-hold it, than its breaking the law (in a way).
Than again, there is freedom rights, so there goes my above statement. Damn if you do, damn if you dont.

I dont say ALL downloads are wrong, NO WAY. Im not saying you steal when you download a music video/song thats free out there. I dont think is stealing when you download a free OS.

But, it is stealing when you go download a piece of software that costs $800 or an album that costs $15. Fine, you do it here and there, once here once there, great. But there are people that download thousands of gigs of music and movies. Sorry but everything has a limit.

Anytime you take something that costs MONEY, and you get it for free (unless its a gift or something), than thats called STEALING. Dont matter how you look at it, dont matter what the product is, dont matter if its a physical product or a virtual download product. They costs money and they are copyright protected, THEREFORE, its stealing.

All other downloads that are free, GO FOR IT, and nobody can tell you that you steal it or break the law, because you dont….

Go to Jamendo or Magnatune.

OpenSource games:

- UFO: Alien Invasion
- UltraStar Deluxe(Singing game)
- FlightGear
- Alien Arena

Want to see TV for free and not be in the wrong side of the law?
Use Miro and be happy

OS for free there are hundreds just go to “distrowatch” and confirm for yourselves who needs Vista LoL

Radio and TV already proved that you can give something for free and still sell products otherwise people would never buy a DVD or a CD they just make mixed tapes and rip movies and shows to the DVD burners and in the past tho video cassette tapes.

People buy CD and DVDs because of boxes and extras that they would not have otherwise and like water in a bottle people buy it because they think it is more pure even when is just tap water filtrated with added minerals basicly people are buying the bottle the same is for music people listen to music in radios and go buy the box(CD). You don’t go claiming ownership of the ocean.

Ideas are not products they cannot be owned is like water on the ocean once is there you cannot try and negate access to others because someone thing it owns part of the ocean it will lead to civil unrest, what people can do is make a product around it and capitalize.

No I’m not comparing apples and oranges, the nearest internet igual is TV and Radio stations.

TVs and Radios don’t make money out of the public(that represent the public domain) they make their money from the commercial domain(companies) and for all effects and purposes TV and Radio stations don’t make money from the viewers do they?

And like the internet companies will not make money from the users they will make money from other companies is that so hard to understand?

About people downloading and selling things and paying nothing to the creators if they state that they have too I agree with you that is stealing and I know that there are people who do it, I don’t but that is me I don’t use Vista a use Linux(Fedora) and Red Hat don’t complain about it and the nice thing about it is that I can go to the app manager that is included and search a library of thousands of opensource free applications in which you can find “Gimp”(Photoshop), “PaintNET”(think Photoshop) or “Blender”(think 3D Max) the Gimp is so good that the industry used to make some films already like “Scooby Doo” and “300″ if you are a music artist the options are very good for professionals too and I didn’t even talk about the free apps for education like “Dr. Geo” or “Stellarium” or Games like “Tremulous” all available to windows too opensource is a new paradigm and it proved to work is not some theoretical rhetoric it’s real and happening right now.

The thing that it proved, is that you can give away your intellectual property and still make money out of it. And this happened because copyright laws started to encroach on the Public Domain, I cannot argue that the law today don’t give the right to copyright holders to do a lot of things this is just what is wrong copyright today is a powerful tool to negate acess and use of all kinds of uses even the legit ones like copying for personal use and transform consumers into mensalist ignoring the long held tradition of ownership and putting a intolerable burden on society morally there is nothing wrong with sharing not even in mass sharing something if you could you should. So under the current laws in some places you are right people are infringing copyright under others laws you are wrong there is no infringement going on but this will change under ACTA if it is brought to light and I will harm economies everywhere.

Copyright started as a set of rules that give the artist the minimum necessary to explore his creation. Did you know that the first copyright law gave artist 15 years to collect what they could and sudently this expanded to “life” plus 95 years, that those laws were made in the 1700 or was 1800 where there was no electronics and that it was based on the fact that nobody can own intellectual property and it all belongs to the public domain and is lend to the copyright owner so he could explored for a “brief” period and returned to the public domain?

Laws change this time it will change from social pressure because people want stop sharing(pirating) it’s a natural phenomenon it is not planned or some evil plot to destroy an industry it is a new field were the public domain have an expanded territory and people are just sharing in a global scale but still is just sharing and intellectual property, music in this case cannot be separeted when is in the public domain(the internet) and copyright owners don’t have powers in the public domain and should never have this lead us to the transparent civil disobedience when copyright is infringing in the rights of society trying to negate them the right to share, the right to use and the right to own something.