UK BitTorrent Users Under More Pressure From Lawyers
Written by enigmax on January 11, 2008Lawyers in the UK representing software developer Reality Pump are lining up more threats against file-sharers. Having previously represented the publishers Zuxxez and CodeMasters, these lawyers like quoting German law to UK citizens to scare them - which appears to have backfired in a big way.
Lawyers Davenport Lyons are fast becoming a thorn in the side of alleged UK file-sharers. Having cut their teeth threatening alleged sharers of ‘Dream Pinball‘, they more recently moved on to those alleged to have shared ‘Colin McRae Dirt’.
Now they have obtained a court order to force ISPs (Be Un, BT, Easynet, Eclipse, Entanet, Eurisp, Fasthosts, Kcom, Opal, Orange, Pipex, Plusnet, Supanet, TalkTalk, Thus and Tiscali) to reveal the names and addresses behind an unspecified number of IP addresses alleged to have shared the game ‘Two Worlds’ from publisher ‘Reality Pump‘. Reality Pump are linked with Zuxxez, publishers of Dream Pinball.
The modus operandi is the same as before: Use an unaudited, untested p2p tracking system to capture IP addresses, use lawyers to imply a criminal offense has been committed (which is not the case) to obtain a court order, which is then used to force ISPs to give up customer data which is never used in a criminal case. At this point the account holder receives a threatening letter demanding around £700 ($1,400) stating “pay up or else we’re going to sue you” - except on track record, they never do.
Legal recommendations from TorrentFreak’s counsel suggested that ignoring such letters is a bad idea, in that if the case actually went to court, the court wouldn’t appreciate the ignoring of paperwork. While this remains true for cases eventually going to court, it seems that cases are not doing so. After hearing of many hundreds of instances of threatening letters being sent, we have not heard of a single case going to court and now there seems to be a building feeling amongst people who have received the letters that the best thing to do with them is to ignore them.
One person who received a letter about his alleged sharing of Colin McRae told us: “I got the letter through the post on a bad day and just panicked. I wrote to them denying their claims and giving them as many facts as I could to show it wasn’t me but they haven’t left me alone since. Other people i’m in touch with who ignored the letters haven’t heard anything back at all so i’m kicking myself for contacting them. They say I have just days to pay the full amount.”
Another person involved in the Colin McRae case says he responded to Davenports using the ‘wireless defense‘ - i.e he had an unsecured router that someone accessed without his permission. After some delay a letter was received from Davenport which states that he is responsible for what is done on his connection. It is noteworthy that they have not stated any relevant UK law to back this up - we are not aware of any precedent under English law that they could state, which probably explains why they didn’t.
Applying German law to English file-sharing cases backfires
In their letters, Davenport Lyons state that under German law, a user is responsible for what happens on his connection. They state: “We believe that a UK court would take the same position.” Oh really?
Ok, just for fun, let’s try applying German law to the UK cases and see what we come up with:
According to a great post on P2P Blog, a fireman who was accused of sharing stuff illegally in Germany claimed that he had nothing to do with this sharing. The record companies used an argument they had success with in past cases (possibly the German cases referred to by Davenport), i.e, as the owner of the connection, he was liable for the infringing actions of others. In this case the ‘others’ were members of his family - children etc.
This time, the courts weren’t so sympathetic. They have just decided that this man CAN’T be held responsible for the infringing actions of others, just because his name was on the bill. The court decided that as the record companies could neither prove that the fireman shared the material nor that he knowingly failed to prevent infringement, he could not be held liable. The decision in Frankfurt stated that adult family members don’t even have to be instructed or controlled by the connection owner unless they are suspected of committing any file-sharing activity. Another court has rejected the liability of a company in case an employee committed copyright infringement using the company’s internet connection.
It is of MY view, Davenport Lyons, that a UK court would take the same position. An IP address alone does not identify an infringing individual, so get used to it.
Stay tuned over the weekend for our interview with a lawyer helping to defend 500 file-sharers.
Previously: Swedish Politicians Strike Blows at Copyright Lobby
Next: Anti-Piracy Voice-Overs to Prevent CDs from Leaking
98 Responses
So its illegal to use someones unsecured wireless connection without their knowledge, but anything else you do is held accountable by the owner of the connection.
haha
lol, come get me..what a joke..pitiful……pmsl
this is why I use peerguardian. although i’m not sure how well it works… :/
troy anderson - the jig is up. geek credentials at the door.
@3 It doesn’t work, all they have to use is a proxy.
zultrax p2p is a good alternative, is a p2p anonymous in settings only network zeep and proxy on, and no more leetters of fuckers.
I’m glad I don’t live in the UGAY
So acording with the lawyers, if someone stole my car because I left the doors unlocked and then commited an supposed/yet-to-be-actual crime with the car then I’m responsible.
Fan-o-Tastic!
@3 it won’t stop them, they get a list of peers and seeds and from that they don’t even need to connect to you
@ 8
A very good analogy and perfect example of why they cant use that argument.
Even if you do secure your internet connection they could find a way in, a Microsoft security flaw. Would it then become Microsoft’s responsibility?
they need to bug off with this surveilance thing. IP addresses are a poor way to track someone seeing as there are ways to change it and/or mask it.
germany has the worst laws in entire europe!
Since the radical government of Angela Merkel put Wolfgang Schaeuble on the roll for interior minister a lot changed.
examples?
1.the government and its institution have access to ALL BANK ACCOUNTS of all citizens. (now mostly used to search for fraud in the social system)
2.ANY(!) connection a german ever makes using phone,mobile,internet or whatever you can think of, HAS to be stored for 6 months. (fighting terror is the reason why…and they are not even joking!)
3.police is allowed to wiretap attorneys, journalists …well, ANYBODY.
this list could go on for hours… ppl outside germany just to recognize what is happening there, since none dares to tell an ugly old women the way.
People in germany are scared of their own government! Let’s just hope this is not getting to where germany already has been once.
No 3 & No 5 I would consider using a product like “Mute” rather then peer guardian or both. There is no way to trace your IP with Mute. The fact that Peer guardian may block a good percentage of outsiders probes just gives me a feeling of satisfaction that it’s not always working for them.
Also this excerpt from an earlier article here :
“Some of America’s greatest innovators were thought of as pirates. When Thomas Edison invented the phonographic record player, musicians branded him a pirate out to steal their work and destroy the live music business, until a system was established so everyone could be paid royalties, which we today call the record industry. Edison, in turn, went on to invent filmmaking, and demanded a licensing fee from those making movies with his technology. This caused a band of filmmaking pirates, including a man named William, to flee New York for the then still wild West, where they thrived, unlicensed, until Edison’s patents expired. These pirates continue to operate there, albeit legally now, in the town they founded: Hollywood. William’s last name? Fox.”
Can anyone still sue Fox for Patent infringment? Movie Pirating? This is way to ironic - the original filmaker was a pirate!!!!
And they pick on little people?
@11 yes… thats the best idea… lets put the blame on microsoft for creating an exploitable OS and selling it to the public and claiming it to be safe. Im sure that bill gates has enough money to satisfy the hunger of the wolves for a short period.
Mute’s anonymity is actually easy to compromise. It’s mostly security by obscurity. Only I2P and Tor are reasonable alternatives albeit these aren’t perfect either. It’s pretty useless to recommend them anyway because anonymity and security can never be achieved by a couple of clicks. These are concepts and you’ll to keep them in mind all the time or you’ll compromise all of it yourself by using it incorrectly making man-in-the-middle attacks possible or by exposing information that can be tracked back to you regardless of the hidden IP address.
DO NOT REPLY TO THESE LETTERS!!
The evidence they’ve obtained won’t stand up in a British court so they use empty threats to try to scare people into paying up.
Anything you reply with could be used against you and could be seen as an admission of guilt. It also shows you’re scared and they will pursue you further. Once you’ve paid up what guarantee do you have it will stop there and they won’t seek further damages?
Just put the damn letter in the bin and forget about it.
Does that mean they are finding only the users that are sharing with the listed ISPs?
Or everyone that shares CMR?
[quote comment="260798"]DO NOT REPLY TO THESE LETTERS!!
The evidence they’ve obtained won’t stand up in a British court so they use empty threats to try to scare people into paying up.
Anything you reply with could be used against you and could be seen as an admission of guilt. It also shows you’re scared and they will pursue you further. Once you’ve paid up what guarantee do you have it will stop there and they won’t seek further damages?
Just put the damn letter in the bin and forget about it.[/quote]
Yep, that always works: ignore the problem. “La La La La! I can’t hear you! La La La La!”
The bible is the most pervasive thing, it is written by corrupt men who sought to corrupt the mindsofmany and they have done a splendid job
I’m the savior you guysorgals have been looking for since ancient time
I’m a virgin, i am aloner, i am in touch with nature, and have done much to help everyone since my birth.
I know all, see all, hear all, and a perfectionist. I am never satisfied until perfect.
believing is seeing
I am here to offer my help to humanity who are on the path to destruction
I am the the solution to world peace
I will bring world peace through love, co-operation, and understanding of the world we live in.
[quote comment="260645"]@3 It doesn’t work, all they have to use is a proxy.[/quote]
Bullshit. Anyone surfing without PG installed is just asking for trouble. Peer Guardian works just fine, thank you very much. Like the American Express ads say, “Don’t leave home without it”.
Yes, there is a learning curve to PG as far as how you set it up and use it, but it’s well worth the time. As for anti-p2p groups using proxies, they tend not to. Why should they? There’s already plenty of fish in the barrel who go on the net unprotected.
And in such a case, so what? Nothing is ever going to be 100%. But you also don’t have to make yourself an easy target. Especially for people who aren’t technically proficient in more advanced methods of anonymity or don’t want the hassle of such, Peer Guardian is simply a must have. Set it and forget it.
Telling someone it doesn’t work when it clearly does do exactly what it’s intended to is just irresponsible. So, which anti-piracy group do you work for? :P
@RockEmSockEm: they havent taken a single person to court even though many ignored the first letters they sent. The ones who replied got the most trouble.
Although if bending over for people is your game then be my guest, just remember the lube first, it’s going to be a rough ride.
[quote comment="260695"]germany has the worst laws in entire europe!
Since the radical government of Angela Merkel put Wolfgang Schaeuble on the roll for interior minister a lot changed.
examples?
1.the government and its institution have access to ALL BANK ACCOUNTS of all citizens. (now mostly used to search for fraud in the social system)
2.ANY(!) connection a german ever makes using phone,mobile,internet or whatever you can think of, HAS to be stored for 6 months. (fighting terror is the reason why…and they are not even joking!)
3.police is allowed to wiretap attorneys, journalists …well, ANYBODY.
this list could go on for hours… ppl outside germany just to recognize what is happening there, since none dares to tell an ugly old women the way.
People in germany are scared of their own government! Let’s just hope this is not getting to where germany already has been once.[/quote]
uh, Reality Check, the U.S Government is already doing that s**t.
They wanted to spy on all ISPs to stop child pornography, and child molesters, and Terrorism too.
It’s stupid to worry about Terr-or-ris-ism. I am so scared, just fear fear fear as usual.
Also Bush can check any Bank accounts to stop the funding of Al-Quesadilla, why would Bush wanna stop us from eating Al-Quesadilla from Taco Bell, I guess Taco Bell is a terrorist.
and Police are allowed to break into your home without a warrant, they can tap anyones line, in fact Bushco can spy on any text messages (even ones from my horny girlfriend), and can spy on every phone call.
I say f*ck Bushco, I never molested any child, whats illegal about getting good messages from my girlfriend, Bushco is a snotbag.
Stupid Al-Quesadilla, and their Racism suicide bombers using tomato bombs, with beef grenades, lettuce Razors, and mouth-stuffing tacos,
Yeah, thats a weapon allright, a weapon upp myy ass.
Bush is a stupid secret society disgusting dirtbag, who doesn’t care about children, adults, or seniors.
If he really cared about stopping terror, why does he keep the bloodshed in Iraq, all he cares about is his Moo-la In his pocket.
Join Al-Quesadilla Today, and save Iraq from destruction, and also get a soft taco, with Cujan Rice, and you get Tomato Bombs, diet pepsi acid, beef weapon, and more.
Join Taco Bell today Woohoo
[quote comment="260664"]I’m glad I don’t live in the UGAY[/quote]
no i bet you live in the U.S.ASSHOLE you fucking mug
@26 LOL.
@Post - Anyone who hosts a DDL site (or similar), which links to other sites, get letters like that ALL the time saying to pay up. It generally consists of bullshit which ends in pages and pages different laws you’ve broken..
And all you do is ignore the letter and you’re sorted.
it’s ok i’ll be fine as long as i wear my tinfoil helmet
@26 + 27 lol u guys r jokers
I will never ignore a treat even non-credible because I fell insulted and it will causes me to attack immediatly with multiple urestrained blows.
The parasites of the entertainment industry has been warned.
I feel lucky that i live in the UK yet none of those is my ISP…
Someone should take those guys to court for all the crap they do….I’m sure there’s a case somewhere….
# 21 Peer guardian doesn’t work. Simple proof of this is going to a website called “Ninja surfing” Even with PG on it immediately shows you your IP address and even pretty well where you are on a map, pretty scary stuff.
got letter today about a game called two worlds ! I haven’t download it but own the game any way waste of money that was…. what is it all about please? ..quote..
In their letters, Davenport Lyons state that under German law, a user is responsible for what happens on his connection. They state: “We believe that a UK court would take the same position.” Oh really?
quote
where in the letter does it state under German law cant see it? this as there are many pages ? I will ignore this demand for money with menaces….but still is worrying also this
@33
Take them to court for extortion and file criminal charges. even if it doesn’t go to court it may make them think twice
Got my letter from DL this morning.
First reaction, freak out, run around the house flapping my arms and biting fingernails to the bone
Second reaction was to sit down and read the letter again (all 30 pages of it). In the notes on evidence section 3 paragraphs 2 and 3 it covers the security of connection, at no point does it mention German law.
With that said I’ve heard that there is a firm of solicitors willing to take up this case for ‘the 500′. I’ll be on the phone to them shortly.
Also received letter regarding two worlds this morning. What is the firm of solicitors? Starting to worry now…
I got this letter today from Davenport Lyons.. about twto worlds!!! what the hell
Got the letter today also for Two_Worlds.. at first I thought what the !!! but now it looks like a money grab scam hoping people will cough up the £750 early out of panic..
I wouldn’t mind but I only had the nocd crack on utorrent I actually had an original game. I’m not paying £750 for a nocd patch (which ironically TW was patched officially as nocd by the 1.2 patch from the game makers themselves)
I have also receieved this letter?!
For dling a 7gb file?!
IMO that was a 4gb file at most, going to read it good now.
Sean who are the solictors who will take up the case???
Thanks
Thank you for the information. I ve got offer to pay 758£ .I ll go to CAB in this 14 days . I gave call to my friend already. I gonna defend my rights. Anybody could use my IP address cos we have dynamic one with router,( they imagined one and sent it too me it even does not look like ) then gave call to Virgin media LTD They knew nothing I went to Police they ve got phone number of Lyons it s 02074682600 I gave them call they offered to go to solicitor. I ll spend everyth what I have but will not give them a peny !!!!I did not play and downloaded games from 2001 year when I ve got problem with eyes ….I do not wanna swear but to get my confidential information and try to scare me…they gonna be bitten by law..I ll do my best ..russbear@mail.ru
guys we can do it together maybe ?It s gonna be easier for us and hurter for them !!!and if we lose maine case we can do singles …I am not sure how it works here but we need to beat them
Right o lads.
We need to group together and total up to see how many of us there actually are.
I’m going to set up something online where we can all register for this as it basic bullying to try and get money out of you.
MSN off anyone would be great and then ill talk to you a bit a we will get this sorted in the mean time
DO NOT PAY THIS AND DO NOT WRITE OR CONTACT THEM THEY CAN USE THIS AS EVIDENCE, TO SAY THAT YOU ARE GUILTY.
Some email addresses would be nice so i can talk to you over msn or something.
Please lets sort this out, group together and not bow to these stupid threats.
Matt Lucas.
Hi, i also got a letter from Davenport lyons also for two worlds. I will be going to cab as i also have a router and it is not encrypted and to my knowledge someone could have easley used it. But there is no law to say i have to have it encrypted and also it seems to me this was a set up by one of the companies…..i will respond to the letter explaining the above, i would also like to get this sorted so my address is partyrogue@hotmail.com plaease get in touch and let me know if someone sorts something out …… thanks
Thats what i like to see thanks partyrogue.
Invite sent.
Dear Sir or Madam I received a letter from yourselfs accusing me of downloading/uploading a game called Two Worlds (work) and u say it was done with my ip address 86.20.158.184 . I have not heard of this game let alone even played it. We have 2 pcs in the house for the children to play on and i have checked both computers to see if this game is on there, and there is no sign of it . Having phoned my service provider and explained the situation to them. The only thing that we can think of is that I have a D-Link wireless router and somebody outside the family has been hacking into this. I have been informed by my service provider, that the best way to stop this is to encrypt it. Not being computer literate and also never gave it a thought that someone else would be using my ip address. I have now asked someone to put an encrypt on it NOT for the fact that u sent me a very nasty letter, and not for the fact that it is law i should do it (as there is no law to say i have to have it encrypt). But i have done it encase anybody tries to exploit my children in any way, so i should thank u for bringing that to my attention.
I would like u to send me the name of the person who has been doing this as u must have something that has the people who have been using this router ie name code or something to back the claim up. As i have had to take a couple of days of work to sort this out and seek legal advice , i will not charge for this letter but would like a response from u to this matter in hand and also the names of the persons using my router as it seems u have all the evidence Yours Faithfully
This is the letter i have sent (ARE WE NOW IN A POLICE STATE UK) sad we have no rights
I received my letter yesterday from Davenport Lyons regarding Two Worlds (work).
I as well as partyrogue is using a wireless router which at the time they mentioned in the letter was not encrypted (a friend said it was not good and helped me later to encrypt it for security reasons).
I am not from the UK originally and have no idea what i can do or where i might be able to seek advice.
burre_burst@hotmail.com
what trackers did the people that got these letters use? Private? public?
i used no tracker?!
i just got a letter!
god damn it i also got this letter -two-worlds-bull-cr@p
the advice given to me was to ignore it
lets hope thats the right option…
i do have the legitimate game too
i think its was to do with the snotty e-mail i sent to them telling them that the game sucked and was going back to blizzards world of warcraft
but is ignoring this letter is the wrong thing to do then i will pop into the local Internet cafe telling every1 how long i will be spending in jail ^.^
I Got the letter toay as well, & to put it nicely am VERY ANGRY I actually bought this game & I can honestly say it was the worst game i’ve ever played. I WOULD NEVER DOWNLOAD IT!!!
I am in the same position as everyone else as I also have a router that wasn’t secured. Thats the only way I can see this happening on my ip address IF THEY EVEN HAVE THE RIGHT ONE!!
my email is davidpauloconnor@googlemail.com So drop me an email & lets stop this shite NOW.
@35 I got a letter from DL this morning about Two Worlds and did pretty much that same thing.
I got all worried about it, only managed to read a few paragraphs before panicking. Then I calmed down sat and read
it a bit more..
@post
I found one bit on my letter under “Unlawful Act and Consequences” (paragraph 2 & 3)which says:
“For making it available via your internet connection on peer-to-peer network(s), either through your own acts or
by permitting others (knowlingly or otherwise) to do so, for third parties on the same networks to download…
…making the Work available can be caused by a person being connected to your internet connection and downloading
the Work, during the course of which the part downloaded is then made available to other third parties connected to
the P2P network in question.”
Does anyone else have this in their letters from DL?
As far as know I have not downloaded the game Two Worlds and suspect that someone must have piggy-backed on my
connection to download it, which means that I haven’t “permitted” them to do so. As it is not a crime to have an
unsecure wireless router I haven’t done anything wrong.
@47 (Matt) Have you created an online forum or something that we can all sign up to yet? Let me know I’ll
definitely join, these letters are nothing but bullying and a way to get compensation for a game that hasn’t got very good reviews.
The High Court Order on the IP is most interesting too. It states there is a prima facie case that the Subscriber copied the Work onto their personal or business computer for the distribution to third parties. The Davenport claim letter though states that they are not interested in how the Work got onto the ‘net, but only that the ISP Subscriber(s) were filesharing as third parties.
Hence Davenport either /a/ obtained the High Court Order in a fraudulent manner, or /b/ are deviating from the scope of the High Court Order … in any case the claim letter is thus a false claim.
The Davenport claim letter also states that subsequent to the IP capture, the Work itself was downloaded and confirmed it was a full working copy.
Reading earlier thread correspondence, it appears a no-cd crack was needed to run the chap. Thus whilst the Work may be present as an image, the Work itself does not execute fully. Hence the supporting information for the claim is incorrect and will itself be laughed out of court.
I’ve also noticed on the Davenport claim first page for TWO WORLDS and for CALL OF JUAREZ, is that they both assert a UK software release date of 19-Aug-07.
Surely both software items having the same date in these matters is very unlikely (can anyone check ?) and as such if one is a wrong date, then ‘half’ of the claim letters are invalid and will be again laughed out of court.
There’s so much wrong with these letters it’s untrue
1) They state that they have downloaded a working copy of the software from you. - By the nature of Bittorrent, this is difficult if not impossible to prove, as client a ‘exchanges’ small sections of the file with client b, however as far as i know, no client logs which parts were received from which client, and whether the data received was good or bad data, so all they can really show is that your IP and their IP met on the designated port and did a handshake, and possibly sent them some data which is meaningless on its own.
I won’t even go into how long it would take for you to send them a fully working copy of the game over bittorrent, all you’ll have sent them in most cases are a few blocks which could quite easily have the same binary data in them as a jpg or mp3, and the only thing making them into the file they’re supposed to be, is their link to other blocks, which would have been received from different IP’s and therefore cannot be linked to you.
2) As I said in point 1, all that can be proved is that you’ve done a handshake with their IP and possibly sent some relatively meaningless file blocks, but those meaningless file blocks are being provided to you by the copyright holder, and you’re sending them to the copyright holder, so where in there is the copyright violation? By using Bittorrent to trace downloaders, they are willingly uploading their own file to you, and since they’ve stated in their letter that they know exactly how the bittorrent protocol works, they would have trouble in court as they have made their software available to download for free over bittorrent, voiding their copyright, and you sending them their own data back is not breaching copyright either.
3) If number 2 doesn’t stick then you’ve got them on entrapment. Before mounting a ’sting’ operation like this would be, i believe that the Police have to be informed and have to authorise the operation, otherwise any evidence is inadmissable in court.
Got the same letter only mine stated I had two hits(at exactly the same time to the second) on the first page at £133 each yet the so called evidence from virgin show only one .I responded to them stating “I have no knowlege of this game ever being down loaded to my ISP” and pointing out the discrepancies in the “EVIDENCE” .They have responded at 21.22 last night!! “We are currently considering your mail and will revert yo you shortly”.
I like most others it seems are wireless heres something to think aboutI didnt know it was illeagal to have it unsecured foolish yes but illeagel I dont think so!
Wow , so many of us have been hacked !!! I too have had a letter from Davenpot Lyons demanding £758.32 for something i`ve never even heard of. My Email address is sli64@hotmail.com for the chap who wanted it.
Thanks.
Just had a thought these “LETTERS” arrive in the normal post(well mine did) so they have no proof that it was delivered to you !!! more reason to ignore it, wish I had but I will ignore all future mail if they send any.
So how can I get in touch with this 500 that is fighting back?
dont reply, they will keep on sending you letters, also dont tell them you had a unsecured router as even if you secure it with 128bit wep key, it can be hacked in 1 min with software available for free all over the web.
Is seems after reading other threads the response I got “We are currently considering your mail and will revert you shortly”.Is the standard reply they send out no matter what you send back to them. Now that this has been going on so long right back to the “pin ball game” letters has ANYONE ever been taken to court and whats the usual amount of letters they send before they move on to another VICTIM . WOULD ALSO LIKE TO GET IN TOUCH WITH THE “500″
Got the letter a week ago, don’t know whether ignore it risking further prosecution, or believe all that’s being stated here about insufficient evidence.
My ISP is Virgin and even though I don’t have a wireless router at home but a normal one, I live in a sharehouse and several rooms are connected, with tenants coming and going and their friends vising, therefore I have no chance of knowing who and how uses the broadband.
According to the posts in this forum, there’s no UK law sying that the line owner is responsible for its usage, but I’d still prefer to hear this from an expert, a solicitor, which I believe isn’t the case of the posters here.
My mail is storm2@centrum.cz, if Matt managed to gather the involved victims.
If you are worried spend £30 on a copy of the game. Its not illegal to have a backup of any media you have a legal copy of. Then invoice them for your time.
Im also being “sued by davenport lyons”
just got another letting saying pay up within 7 days or your going to court.
now id love to get in contact with the 500 people fighting back as id love to be a part of that
i recently received the same letters as above,
but now after reading the post at the bottom of the page about the company that got our IP and sold it to the makers of two pump was illegal to do so.
so my question is surly we have some grounds to attack them being they were the the ones to break the law?
It`s been 20 days since getting the letter. After 2 e-mails and 5 phone calls , i`ve heard nothing from Davenport Lyons. According to them , i had 14 days to make the payment. Since i had 0 , nothing , zilch responce from them , i`d say that any judge would laugh them out of court for not responding within the 14 day deadline. Now my ISP and my mobile phone company are my proof that i`ve activly tryed to settle this farse and they couldn`t give a shit to respond. After 20 days , i`ve got round to looking at what two worlds is and to be honest , i don`t even play games so what the hell is all this about ???? Good luck everyone !!!
57 Mar 02, 2008 at 11:31 by OLDGUYQuote OLDGUY
Got the same letter only mine stated I had two hits(at exactly the same time to the second) on the first page at £133 each yet the so called evidence from virgin show only one .I responded to them stating “I have no knowlege of this game ever being down loaded to my ISP” and pointing out the discrepancies in the “EVIDENCE” .They have responded at 21.22 last night!! “We are currently considering your mail and will revert yo you shortly”.
I like most others it seems are wireless heres something to think aboutI didnt know it was illeagal to have it unsecured foolish yes but illeagel I dont think so!
Got a reply after pointing out that their “evidence” is flawed
“it has come to our attention that your letter recieved contained an error to the number of hits (not their exact words) now claiming for one hit and reducing the extortion by £132.92!!!!! After reading threads on other sites it seems they have sent out this second letter out to EVERYONE regardless of how many “hits” they say you had in the first “gun to the head” letter.
Yet another example of of them sending out blanket letters hoping someone will pay up they actually had the bloody cheek to “apologise for the inconvenience caused”
Keep the faith brothers and dont pay up (but keep listening to soul)
)
Anybody out there being chased by Davenport Lyons?
at least one month now and not herd from them again
Anti-piracy outfit Logistep ran headlong into operating illegally in Italy recently, when it was ruled that they illegally spied on P2P users.
rofl
just got mine…sending some emails to those who listed…paranoia is now running high….let the gf see it now I am in the poo big time….fresher error, god bless tinternet for info on logistep though….looking shaky
Judging from the fact that so many people have received this letter in the past and have exceeded the 14 days without paying, what does everyone recommend doing after receiving this mail? Is the best answer nothing? Has anyone who received a letter months ago just done nothing and received nothing back?
Well it`s been 47 days (6 weeks and 5 days) now since the origional letter. I tryed to contact them many times but i had no reply. Surly it`s too late now for them to do anything . The dead line was 14 days !!! Has anyone had a recent letter from them ?? If so then what did it say ? I`m curious as i`m expecting that these people just send out bulk mail all at once and attack certain people. I`m no expert but the DP paperwork seemed very genuine and very scary at the time. I phisically written the cheque and put it in an envelope addressed to DP. I`m so so glad i found this thread before i posted it. It`s given me faith to fight and not give in at the first hurdle !!!
i got a letter in march to which i replied saying i didn’t do it
i was a 55 year old
.i didn’t own a games console,
and i wasn’t going to pay ,
they sent another letter 13 days after the first,saying as i paid the bill so i was responsible for what happened on my computer,and i had 7 days to pay or they would take me to court,
should i ignore this? please help because i find this very intimidating
and distressing
Is there a legal case for suggesting that Reality Pump are involved in entrapment in any way?
Surely if they know that this file is out there and are just waiting for people to ‘commit a crime’ then that isn’t legally unacceptable?
A mate of mine got the same letter last week - but he’s probably going to pay up because he doesn’t want to end up in court.
has anybody out there had to go to court over this matter, as i am getting very upset by this and i am thinking of paying them £574 just because it is making me ill worrying about it
I got a letter a few months back. Luckily I have a solicitor friend whose son is a lawyer. He asked his son for his opinions about the letter. His son spoke to a couple of lawyer friends who used to work for one of the big London intellectual property/copyright law firms (have forgotten the name).
Their response, assuming current copyright law, was along the lines of the IP/copyright owner would only be entitled to claim the value of their actual loss plus nominal costs. Say the retail cost of a game is £30, the retailer and distributor will take margin, the actual value to the publisher will vary but will only be between £10-20. This is the maximum they can claim from you in an English court. The value of their costs are limited as well, the two IP lawyers said the maximum you would have to pay would be around £100.
This is why DL have not taken anyone to court. Their letters are a complete scaremongering scam. My Solicitor friend’s professional advice was to ignore the letter completely
TO ALL DOWNLOADERS….!!!!
I am a debut artist who’s just recorded one of the most expensive debut albums in recent history.
We have just released my debut album as a FREE HQ Mp3 download.
It was a tough decision for us to make because of the vast amounts spent on the album. We had two of the biggest record producers in the world work on it…. at Peter Gabriel’s Realworld studio and at Abbey Road studio in london.
Despite all that, we recognise the massive potential the internet and free albums in particular offers. We launched last friday and have already had 1000’s of DL’s all over the world.
Come over and download for FREE.. it takes 2 minutes to DL because we have a dedicated server.
http://www.jackrubinacci.com
Thanks
Jack
I took the advice not to respond and have never herd back so don’t worry, don’t pay and don’t panic
just received my final letter today saying that they will not correspond with me any more and that they are issueing court proceedings against me .has anyone else got this letter and what did they do.
also has anyone been to court yet as i am getting rather nervous now .any help or advise will be most helpful to me .
Those whom authority wish to control, they first must scare shitless
News
[Internet]
Friday 9th May 2008
London lawyers demand �600 for game download 10:17AM, Friday 9th May 2008
A London legal firm is demanding in excess of �600 from people who it claims are guilty of downloading a single game from a file-sharing service.
Legal firm Davenport Lyons sent the demand to one PC Pro reader, after claiming it had “forensic computer analysis” that shows he downloaded the game Two Worlds using BitTorrent. Davenport Lyons is acting on the behalf of German games distributor Zuxxez, which last year employed the firm to target file sharers.
The PC Pro reader was given no prior warning to stop file sharing, unlike the usual “three strikes and you’re out” approach adopted by the music industry, which gives users two warnings to stop sharing before legal proceedings are instigated.
The legal demand claims that “given the extent of the damage that file sharing is causing to our client’s business, our client is left with no option but to adopt a policy of enforcing its rights in an attempt to stem the wholesale misappropriation of its property.”
The letter goes on to claim that its “client is prepared to give you the opportunity to avoid legal action” provided it receives compensation of �600 plus �8.18 to cover the costs of obtaining the user’s details from their ISP.
The letter insists payment must be made within 14 days or else “our client will be seeking as a minimum from you an interim payment of �1,200 and will request the Court to determine the level of total damages and costs which should be awarded against you”.
Wrong postage paid
The PC Pro reader, who has asked not be to named, says he can find no trace of the Two Worlds game he is alleged to have downloaded on his home PCs, although can’t rule out the possibility that his teenage children
ADVERTISEMENT
may have downloaded the game.
Nevertheless, he feels the �600 “settlement” is “highly disproportionate” for the download of a single game.
“To add insult to injury it [Davenport Lyons] didn’t pay enough postage on the letter and I had to collect it from the sorting office at a cost of �1.30,” he says. “This also used up most of the two weeks that it allowed for a response.”
A spokesman for Davenport Lyons told PC Pro that it was investigating why the letter was sent out with the incorrect postage, but refused to comment further on the matter. The game’s distributor Zuxxez was unavailable for comment at the time of publication.
Hundreds targeted
This isn’t the first time Davenport Lyons has targeted British file sharers. The firm last year sent out hundreds of similar letters on behalf of Zuxxez for the game Dream Pinball 3D and Codemasters for Colin McRae Dirt.
Many of those targeted claim they didn’t download the game they were accused of illegally sharing, according to multiple posts on internet forums.
Several of those have challenged Davenport Lyons to produce their “forensic” evidence in court, although we can find no reported cases of successful prosecutions.
I had my 1st letter March 2nd, it`s taken for them till now to demand money once again or i`m going to court so it looks like i`m a goin to court. Anyone out there want to come with me. Never even played Two Worlds so WTF ????
hehe i got mt 2nd letter today too. see u at court :P *ignore mode on*
yep second one today.. dam my shredder’s getting full.
if you search google on the company DL used (Logistep) and their court cases you’ll see they’ve not been too successful :)
I got my second one today too after ignoring the 1st. This one tells me that they’re preparing court letters and anything i sent them now won’t close the case - they also provide me with the forms to send em their money…
I’m trying to stay calm, but am reading more and more reports telling people to reply to the letters. If you dont then they can get a default win against you without you even having to go to court because it’s a civil case and not a criminal.
Not too sure what to do about it to be honest. My biggest concern is that they win by default, sell the debt to a collection agency who then send some thugs round to take the the TV…
Got my second letter today, going to ignore it as what people have said above is that they just can’t claim this kind of money for the offense.
But keep the advice coming its always welcomed :D
I have received my 3rd and final letter now, I am going to ignore it but i would like to know if DL have actually taken anyone to court and one, this is worrying me greatly as we are on a low income and cant afford to pay the fines,I dont really want the inconvenience of going to court but i am resigned to the fact that i will go if i have to as i dont want to part with my money for something i havnt done.
Got a second letter!!!!WTF, even though i never received the 1st one, so this has come as a total shock to me, I cannot remember downloading this title ad have defiantly not got it on my pc.
I don’t know what to do now, do I bury my head in the sand or pay the £758.72 which they are requesting
any advice will be appreciated
i too receive a second letter which i found rather odd considering the fact that according to other sources the way the company aquired our info,ip etc was infact illegal.
i too had decided to ignore the first because one i have never heard of two worlds, two the letter was not even addressed to me but the previous resident here many years ago.
so again anyone gone to court with this? and has anyone used the facts that they illgaly attenind our ip/info?
Today I heard from virgin media who confirmed that they had a court order forced upon them on which they had to release customer data relating to my i.p adress. I have had my 3rd letter now telling me that it will goto court unless I pay up. I am seeing a lawyer next week so we shall see what he says. I shall sue the arse of davenport lyons for harassment and defamation or something and virgin media for breach of a confidential agreement and being wuss enough to give in. Personally I think they are all in it together as they know they can’t stop file sharers…period.
In another note to my last one, I also havent downloaded anything, never do, I think they just target people who they think wont fight back.
German court: P2P lawsuits are unconstitutional
06/12 2008 | 03:23 PM
Posted by: Janko Roettgers
A German court has recently found that the evidence used in the country’s tens of thousands of file sharing lawsuits is obtained in an unconstitutional way. The Frankenthal district court threw out a lawsuit against a defendant that was sued for sharing a video game on a file sharing network, according to heise.de.
The lawsuit was based on evidence obtained by the swiss Anti-piracy outlet Logistep, which provided rights holders with the IP address of the defendant. A law office working for the rights holder used the IP address to start a criminal complaint. Prosecutors requested the name of the defendant from a major German ISP and shared it with rights holders, who then started another civil lawsuit against the defendant - a controversial but common practice in Germany that has led to tens of thousands of lawsuits as well as completely overwhelmed prosecutors.
The court now found that the ISP wasn’t allowed to give out the name of the defendant because file sharing doesn’t count as a serious criminal offense. Handing over the name and address of the defendant violated his constitutional right to privacy. There is no common law in Germany, so this decision won’t immediately affect other pending file sharing lawsuits, but it’s quite possible that other defendants will get inspired by this decision to also try their luck in court, and that sooner or later we’ll see one of those cases in front of the German Supreme Court.
I’ve been dealing with a similar letter a friend received at one of his properties he hasn’t lived in for some time. The ‘evidence’ they have presented points to the bill payer and does not prove, in my opinion, that he was responsible. He wouldn’t know how to use the damn thing even if he did live there.
The letter makes reference to sections of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. It seems that they have embellished on what the Act actually says to add more crap-your-pants factor to the letter.
The problem I have with what DL have written (please be aware I am not a lawyer but have south some legal advice) is firstly how they have interpreted sections of the Act and secondly the inclusion of words in brackets which do not appear anywhere in the Act. In fact there is a section of the Act that contradicts their interpretation.
Please excuse my vagueness. I’d love to publicly challenge their arguments but I would be very surprised if DL aren’t monitoring these discussions regarding their ‘work’ in order to mask the gaping holes in the next batch of letters. It would appear from earlier letters I’ve seen they are now covering a lot more ground.
If law states it is the responsibility of the internet subscriber to secure the wireless network and they are liable for the wrong doing of others through that service (in the cases of network hijacking etc.) why is free public wi-fi so readily available? Have corporations such as Starbucks not done their homework? Is local government flouting the law by making the internet freely available in public libraries? I’d say unlikely.
I suppose what I’m trying to say is without DL knowing who actually carried out these alleged acts (as opposed to who subscribes to the internet service) how can they bring a case to court?
In addition to what I have written above it seems all they have is a list of names associated with IP addresses through which the alleged incidents occurred. In other words they can trace events as far as your broadband modem. What happened after that is anybody’s guess including theirs. It is impossible for them to prove the internal IP or MAC address of the PC which contains the files and also who owns or was operating the PC at the time of the alleged offence. They know this and that is why they are attempting to frighten people by claiming it is the bill payer’s responsibility. I am unable to find anything to support this claim.
If there is UK law regarding domestic wireless network security then surely your internet provider would need to make you aware of this when you subscribe. Providers may strongly recommend you do so to protect your personal data but in the case of my friends broadband provider, nothing they communicated to him stated it was a legal requirement.
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