Bram Cohen To Deliver BitTorrent Live Streaming
Written by Ernesto on September 16, 2009Bram Cohen, the inventor of the BitTorrent protocol that revolutionized file-sharing, is working on BitTorrent-based live streaming. With his efforts he aims to develop a piece of code that is superior to all the other P2P-based streaming solutions on the market today.
The online video streaming revolution has hugely increased the use of bandwidth by individual consumers. At the same time it’s also resulting in huge bandwidth bills for streaming sites such as YouTube.
Thus far the demand for video continues to grow, and it is even expanding to live video. To keep video services from collapsing and to save bandwidth costs, it seems almost inevitable that content providers will have to look at P2P-based streaming solutions. Last year we reported that CNN had experimented with a P2P-based live stream, and the Tribler research team has already shown that it’s possible to use BitTorrent to stream live footage.
There are currently a few dozen people working on P2P-based live streaming, and they are soon to be joined by Bram Cohen, the inventor of BitTorrent. Last week he tweeted that he will beat Tribler’s solution in terms of delay. “Tribler’s live streaming benchmarks are a joke. I’m going for < 5sec delay," Bram wrote.
This comment did of course peak our interest, so we decided to get in touch with Bram Cohen to ask him what he’s up to exactly. He told us that his BitTorrent-powered live streaming implementation is still in an early stage of development, but he hopes to have a working version ready “sometime next year”.
“I think there’s a very large market for live [streaming] in general, and to date noone has proven that a p2p solution can meet the real-world requirements for being an acceptable live solution. I intend on changing that,” Bram told us.
There are still a lot of problems to solve though, before the first version becomes available to the public. Getting BitTorrent to work effectively with live streams requires several major adjustments.
“Doing live properly is a hard problem, and while I could have a working thing relatively quickly, I’m doing everything the ‘right’ way,” Bram told TorrentFreak. He further explained that everything has to be redone in order to make BitTorrent compatible with live streams, “including ditching TCP and using congestion control algorithms different from the ones we’ve made for UTP,” Bram said.
“I am fundamentally a technologist, and am simply not interested in working on something which doesn’t solve the fundamental problem it’s supposed to tackle, especially in a market where there have already been so many bad technologies which failed to succeed based on sales and marketing,” he added
In his tweet Bram Cohen focused on an extremely low latency of less than 5 seconds, so content will not have to buffer for minutes before the stream starts. According to some, such a low latency could mean that a lot of potential upload capacity would go lost. However, Bram disagrees on this, as he explained to TorrentFreak.
“Lower latency doesn’t require extra bandwidth, it just requires that everything be designed from the ground up for low latency. In terms of overhead, I’m shooting for making a swarm able to work with only 20% extra upload capacity, which is subtly different from having 20% extra overhead – because there’s noise in real networks, there needs to be some slop for when things get bad.”
“My actual extra bandwidth used will be less than 10%. This very important benchmark number is generally speaking not even mentioned for most p2p live streaming solutions, and I get the feeling that the developers don’t even know what the value is. I’m taking an approach of viewing all the important benchmarks (latency, extra bandwidth necessary, offload percentage) as central to the whole thing, and running realistic simulations constantly to get a good idea for what they are and help optimize them.”
“Oddly, most live p2p solutions don’t even make coherent claims as to what latency they can provide, and when they do it’s a delay which hardly qualifies as live. My offload of course goes over 99% on large swarms – without that it’s hardly p2p,” Bram said.
The big question is of course how BitTorrent’s inventor will try to solve this puzzle. Many researchers including the Tribler team are looking into P2P-powered live streams, and not all of them agree that the tit-for-tat algorithm based on reciprocity is suited for live streams. However, when we asked Bram whether he is looking into a new algorithm he was very clear.
“No, the low latency requirements basically preclude any competitive algorithms and I’m going with a cooperative approach. It does do a very good job of squeezing out every little bit of upload capacity all the peers have though, and doing it with the same ISP-friendly properties as UTP,” Bram said.
Quite a few ISPs are complaining bitterly about the strain BitTorrent puts on their network, so they will be delighted to hear that they are not being ignored in the development process. If done right, BitTorrent-powered live streams may accelerate the availability of live streams on the Internet.
Not only will existing broadcasters be able to stream their content at low costs, individual users will also be able to stream a live feed to tens of thousands of Internet users from their home connection without having to invest in bandwidth. More than ever the public will be in charge of distribution, while BitTorrent-powered TV moves one step closer to becoming reality.
Previously: New Pirate Bay Host Got Hollywood Threats In 20 Minutes
Next: Minister: BitTorrent Will Not Be Blocked By Aussie Filter
57 Responses
pplive
ppstream
etc etc
plenty of live streaming systems using bittorrent-like protocols already out there and working just dandy.
Do you guys even read the article/post before just going “first”…”second” etc?
Back to the article, well, if anyone can do a good job of tackling this its gotta be Bram – he certainly is a “big gun” and we have a lot to thank him for (contrary to the opinions of the scumbags of the RIAA/MPAA/BPI etc)
Good luck Bram, keep us updated.
cool
It’s pique; not peak.
Spotify has p2p in it, right?
It might be more accurate to say that Bram cohen revolutionized piracy. Never before has avoidance of payment and responsibility for your actions been so easy.
Will it be open source?
I think I’ll save my upstream for something else.
This requires the ISPs to get it through their thick skulls that they’re dumb pipes, not smart-ass pipes.
ooohh, interesting prospect.
I’m glad Bram has never been sued for all the work he’s done. It’s too bad this will most likely not be open source because he’s part of a business now.
Great work Bram has done, without BitTorrent where would we be now?
But, will this new project be open source?
There’s already streamtorrent.
Meanwhile, this Java applet tries to do the same thing:
http://www.bitlet.org/video/
:)
Problem being so many ISP’s are traffic shaping bit torrent traffic, it’s already set to fail unless something changes.
Hmmm…latency have to do with “hopes” if he can find a way to map local peers that are asking for the same thing and make them work together as one he could do it.
The problem is how to that would be administered because it needs coordination between the peers and that is no easy task but is doable.
And if he does it have consequences not only for streaming but how people could accelerate bittorrent download speeds even further.
Damn I need to read proof things LoL
gj Cohen. keep up the good work!
did thomas edison really invent the lightbulb? or was it his colored counter part?
I fail to see how pushing loads out to edge nodes for retransmission would help to reduce bandwidth demands on ISPs. Better that many pull from a few centralized sources in that scenario. Seems it would only prove a good way for centralized entitites like YouTube to offload costs onto ISPs, and thus the subscriber base.
And Jonathon is right, better they fix the traffic shaping issues first, because BitTorrent could fast become tedious if they don’t. As it stands ISPs with DPI can knock it off like a light if it suits, and I don’t doubt they’d do the same for a resource-intensive streaming app too, especially if it were to threaten any existing media distribution schemes they have a vested interest in.
@16: “it’s already set to fail unless something changes.”
I promise that if this works as “advertised” and Google gets a hold of it and implements it to lower bandwidth costs for YouTube, things will change. And if this this works like it seems, YouTube will definitely use this technology.
It’s one thing for people to be torrenting illegal music and have ISPs get huffy about their bandwidth hogging, but if the millions upon millions upon millions of LEGAL YouTube users so much as lift a finger against their ISPs, then they will get what they want.
No ISP would risk losing millions of subscriber to other ISPs just because people can’t use YouTube.
UGH streaming bad.
45 minutes tv ep takes 45 minutes to stream
a downlaod at 5 megabit takes 12.5 minutes
more bandwidth = faster and that gets you off the rest of everyones bandwidth and the cry baby network ISPS can get stuffed.
THERE is a reason they want you all streaming
its so they can charge and charge and charge and charge
and what?
YUP charge again
Speaking of which, when’s the next episode of TF tv? :)
I’m posting too fast! ;)
…But I just read some more posts and would like to comment on them.
@1 and @2:
First AND second?! Epic success!
@United Hackers Association:
How about you download the stream, and after you’re done watching it, rip it and upload it as a file for the rest of us who’re ok with the non-live version.
If I understand this correctly would this be conducive to real-time live guerilla journalism, such as of stuff like the French anti-anti-p2p-law riots and mug-shot close-ups of police brutality? Would the confiscation of cameras matter less?
I think UTP should read UDP
UTP – Unshielded Twisted Pair
UDP – User Datagram Protocol
This is a great idea. Although should be patented so no-one can make money but him. Then controlled so no-one can use it but him. Then he gets all the money. money money money.. I want money
inventor lol
emule/kad does the same stuff, except the client is more complete, and does not require any tracker.
inventor is a far overrated word these days.
@32, no it doesnt :/
33!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEAAAAAAAAAh
No seriously, since when was he the bittorrent CREATOR? I must have missed the memo. As long as we’re on the subject. I created piracy. You can thank me later. Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
He don’t want use TFT? LOL.
The protocol is a failure already.
Be closed source will not help.
@32 is right
He is overrated, only because every noobs is using torrent to download without share anything.
The TFT algo is a failure: http://www.dcg.ethz.ch/projects/bitthief/
Awesome..if its Bram then it will actually work … and work for better !
This guy is genius..look what he has done post innovation of BT technology..look what he did with u-torrent, look what he has done with Spotify… he takes complicated technology, makes it user friendly and best of all..his apps are light and not a burden to users system !!
Best of Luck Bram..u r a GENIUS !!!
@chisophugis
You neglect to mention that those using the bandwidth are paying for it and in most cases being defrauded by their ISP’s who fail to deliver what was mentioned in the contract that btw they themselves wrote the specifics of.
The terms “legal” and “illegal” may evoke emotion for you but they are infact merely indicators of how inarticulate those using the terms are when there are many countries that have their own shorter term implementations of the duration of copyright, many not recognising the current US obsession with copyright term extension that has been acheived through obvious political corruption.
Are those passing legislation with such a heavy commercial bias any less a criminal that someone who hasnt been paid off by the media corporations wish to partake in an audio or visual experience ?
Will definitely check it out.
lets see what he can do.
he created P2P, so i can expect something better ;)
TD – Your GateWay To The Scene.
http://www.TorrentDay.com
There are a bunch of Academic projects on this direction nowadays. I worked on one, and in reasonable networks we could stream live HD content with 3 to 2 seconds delay in unknown networks, and True Live Streaming in known networks, with very low delays + time shiffiting. There are other places with similar projects. Thus, even if he doesn’t make it open source, a similar Os solution will sprout faster than he can make any money with it.
bram will be getting know were if he doesnt finally start using generic “MultiCast-DHT Tunnels” as standard for torrents….
the owrlds ISPs will NEVER give you the ability to stop them filtering OFF the multicast protocols to and from your generic MC capable cable modem CPE kit sat on your desk so you NEED to bypass teir filtering by inserting all your multicast traffic inside a (preferably secure) tunnel….
WELL SAID #37!
When will Demonoid be back!
its the best site to get torrents :(
http://www.Adult-Facebook.com
This sucks because it will make our internet slower when watching video’s. Both downloading and uploading video’s at the same time is a difficult task for ordinary pc’s and will cause even more congestion on ISP networks.
glad to see them pushing forward with torrent.
dont eztv have the tstream facility on some links?
http://www.pcauthority.com.au/Tools/Print.aspx?BlogEntryID=118840
http://trial.p2p-next.org/
@8: Neostyles, leave Bram out of the piracy issue. Don’t blame him for what we choose to do with his technology.
Interesting that all the negative comments have magically disappeared. God damn am I sick of the thought-patrol comment moderators on this board. Spam is one thing, but the way comments that disagree with the article are dropped is just retarded. I think I’ll go back to p2pnet.net.
@29: I think Bram Cohen means µTP (micro Transport Protocol) – a proprietary transfer protocol that uses UDP (packets) for transferring data. uTP is created by the devs of uTorrent and also Bram Cohen and other devs of Bittorrent 6+ due the acquisition of uTorrent by Bittorrent Inc.
Because µTP is closed source, other BT clients don’t use it or someone must (clear-room) reverse-engineer it and make a open source version of it.
Great that Bram Cohen pressures the ive streaming market. I’m looking forward what the result will be.
@ .neo.styles|nvDX
‘It might be more accurate to say that Bram cohen revolutionized piracy. Never before has avoidance of payment and responsibility for your actions been so easy.’
Yup, just like saying Smith and Wesson, or Ford, revolutionized the way people got murdered, and then blame it on guns and cars.
I bet you think your logic is absolutely flawless.
People just want to watch whatever they want whenever they want.
I’m really glad to hear that Bram has decided to work on this.
Future generations will inherit something truly awesome.
“Future generations will inherit something truly awesome.”
Really!?
You thieves are demented
I wish him the best of luck.
The BBC here in the UK has live streams of 9 different TV channels – the only channel they don’t stream right now is BBC HD. They also have on-demand streaming of a large library of programmes. The ISPs have got quite upset with them because iPlayer takes up a very significant proportion of Internet bandwidth in the UK, costing them money.
It seems to me that for practical P2P streaming to gain support from ISPs, live or otherwise, the protocol needs to prioritise local transmission. Traffic that can go between peers connected to an ISP without having to go over the Internet effectively doesn’t cost ISPs anything.
The second point is that this really needs to be as simple as possible for users. Practically speaking that means the streaming client has to be a flash app. A naive user browsing to the BBC would have no patience to download client software, as has been proven by the initial version of iPlayer which required a custom P2P client. iPlayer only took off when it swapped to being Flash based.
Were the BBC to adopt such a thing it’d make all the UK ISPs much happier bunnies.
the great master of bt has been working, nice! ^^
Let’s be honest, it’s just a pipe-dream for now and I noticed someone mentioned things like PPLive and PPSteam. The problem is that they’re all independent and all come with shit that fucks with your pc. We ultimately need a new standard here, but it seems that it’s still a couple years off. Which is a shame as PPLive has been around for at least five years.
This exists in China in the form of PPLive.
And yeah, it’s been mentioned…FUCK.
I’ve seen his code. He’s no genius, noone worth drooling over. His code suxxors.
inb4 a kanye meme
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