How The FBI Dismantled a BitTorrent Community
Written by enigmax on June 30, 2008On June 25th 2005, the homepage of the EliteTorrents.org tracker displayed an ominous message. Thousands of members trying to log in to get a sneak peak at a leaked copy of Star Wars: Episode 3 were surprised and confused in equal numbers. Had the FBI really raided one of the largest BitTorrent communities and put up a badly made Word document, or were hackers to blame?
There’s no denying it was a very confusing day. For a while the site just didn’t respond for me. The rumors were starting to circulate. Had the EliteTorrents site really been raided by the FBI? Many furious refreshes later and there it was, a crude webpage with a blood-red background, with a DOJ graphic on one side and an FBI one on the other. In the middle sat part of the EliteTorrents banner (enlarge).
The page was so crude that it gave the tens of thousands of worried users a little relief – if the FBI was really behind the shutdown they would’ve made a better job of the page design than this, surely? The conclusion I reached along with many others was that this was the work of hackers. Site staff reported that the DNS had been hacked, which at the time was actually relatively good news, as reports started to come in that the site now traced to the Department of Homeland Security.
For many sci-fi fans the site downtime was really badly timed, as they (and just about everyone else) were desperate to get on the site to get the leaked ‘ViSA‘ workprint copy of Star Wars: Episode III. But as time passed you could feel the mood change. Most people knew deep down something was wrong but just didn’t want to admit it. Operation D-Elite had been and now EliteTorrents was gone.
When the confirmation came, it did so via a notice in the site’s IRC channel: “A few of the admins have been raided by the FBI, sorry, but ET [EliteTorrents] is now closed”, closely followed by an announcement by Acting Assistant Attorney General John C. Richter of the Criminal Division, Homeland Security Assistant Secretary for Immigration and Customs Enforcement Michael J. Garcia, and Assistant Director Louis M. Reigel of the FBI’s Cyber Division:
This morning, agents of the FBI and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) executed 10 search warrants across the United States against leading members of a technologically sophisticated P2P network known as Elite Torrents. Employing technology known as BitTorrent, the Elite Torrents network attracted more than 133,000 members and, in the last four months, allegedly facilitated the illegal distribution of more than 17,800 titles – including movies and software – which were downloaded 2.1 million times.
BitTorrent sites had been shut down before in the United States, such as the LokiTorrent case, but none had been closed down by the FBI – something had changed. The recently introduced Family Entertainment and Copyright Act meant that when EliteTorrents admin Sk0t uploaded Star Wars: Episode III, he didn’t just commit a civil infringement, it was now a serious crime. The huge popularity of the movie meant it was downloaded at least 10,000 times during the first 24 hours with some claiming in the region of 20,000 downloads worldwide, and this was reportedly enough for the MPAA to finally lose its patience and make good on its successful infiltration of the site.
The federal agents involved in the case executed 10 warrants and took control of the server. In a recent interview, Scott McCausland, aka sk0t, an administrator of the site told Slyck: “Star Wars was uploaded… and then it was game over. I awoke one morning to see the FBI warning on the ET site, and thought to myself “Damn, I think we are screwed.” It didn’t dawn on me at the time that I could be a target. I didn’t upload a lot, just a couple movies. But I did Star Wars, so… Then, at 6AM I am woken up to the sounds of 6 FBI, 6 ICE, and 2 Local Police at my front door. They come in, confiscate everything, and that begins my 2+ years saga.”
In the BitTorrent community many people were absolutely furious at the loss of their favorite site, with a passion not seen since the demise of Suprnova. Thousands of others were panicking. Forums and IRC were awash with theories of who had been arrested so far and who would be targeted next by the FBI, and why. Would it be limited to admins? What about the uploaders? Would regular users be chased down? In the end, around 130,000 users had nothing to worry about but some admins and uploaders weren’t so lucky.
In 2006, Scott McCausland pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit criminal copyright infringement and one count of criminal copyright infringement for his uploading of Star Wars: Episode III. He received jail time and home confinement and on his release told TorrentFreak: “After 5 months in prison, and another 5 months on home confinement, I have just one obstacle left: my 1.5 years years left of probation.”
Fellow site admin Grant Stanley, then aged 23, pleaded guilty to the same offenses as Scott and received the same sentence with the addition of a $3,000 fine. Other admins and uploaders who pleaded guilty included Sam Kuonen, then aged 24, 22 year old Scott D. Harvanek and An Duc Do, aged 25.
Not everyone arrested in connection with the case pleaded guilty. Daniel Dove, an administrator of the site, opted for a ‘not guilty’ plea. For Dove, the gamble hasn’t paid off. The jury was told that Dove was responsible for managing and recruiting the crucial ‘uploaders’ on the site (original seeders) and that he also operated a server which was used to distribute pirate material. The jury believed it and found him guilty on one count each of conspiracy and felony copyright infringement.
Dove will be sentenced on September 9th 2008 where he, like some of the other admins, faces a maximum sentence of 10 years in jail, but is likely to receive substantially less.
Historically, the EliteTorrents case is an important one. Many BitTorrent trackers used to be hosted in the United States, but had been essentially scared or pressured to leave, largely due to direct or indirect MPAA pressure. Right up until the creation of the Family Entertainment Act, any action against sites would have taken place in the civil domain. The act coming into force gave the FBI the green light to get involved, much to the delight of the MPAA who possessed significant investigative powers but lacked the killer ability to quickly shut down a non-compliant site.
The MPAA loves to issue a stream of data about how much piracy went on at EliteTorrents (and a lot did go on), but it was the seeding of a movie, a single pre-release movie that eventually killed the entire site and caused the imprisonment of the admin team. Clearly the leak did nothing to hurt the movie as it went on to gross nearly $110m in its first weekend and has nearly reached a worldwide total of $1bn. But we knew that anyway.
Despite the massive resources at the disposal of the FBI and supposed importance of the case, the person that originally leaked the Episode 3 workprint copy direct from Lucas is nowhere to be seen.
Previously: 3-Strikes Law Not Needed to Disconnect Pirates
Next: Top 10 Most Pirated TV Shows on BitTorrent (wk26)
188 Responses
And I for one hope that that guy is never seen or caught…. when they themselves have admitted that pre-releases dont cost them anything, its insane to get so strong armed.
Old story though, when they cant get their way and it keeps falling into the civil courts they change the laws to make in criminal… and poor souls get trapped.
Used to be that only in the US could you get screwed like this, bad sadly Sweden and a lot of other countries are feeling the influence from across the pond.
Cheers!
Wow, poor bastards, I still can’t believe a man can get jail just for sharing a movie.
I saw that movie twice and downloaded it the first day of release, but i also now have it on DVD…
If there worried about leaks they should do better at making there own staff responcible!
How can anyone not see the sheer corruption and injustice in all of this.. All I hear is ‘Its stealing! Its stealing!’
And what these big corporations are doing is better? Why do you allow them to be above the law?
Fact: Someone has to show them the way of the future, and knock down these tyrants of evil. Piracy is the only effective way, its like ants slowly killing a large powerful foe.. eventually.. sheer numbers will win out.
Continue eating away at these monsters, the swarm is a powerful weapon.
I was looking forward to hearing something new here… disappointing article tbh. Tell us something we don’t know plz?
“maximum sentence of 10 years in jail”
That is nuts. USA is retarded.
haha, good that these criminals got caught. Now they have to suuck huge black c*cks in prison! hahaha
@ 6 – zzzdff
Screw you, if your the one who can only think about it, it’s probably your favorite fantasy!
Why do you come to TorrentFreak, to irritate other or do you just want the news on how the cops are going to find all the child shit you look at?
enough said!
@4
Sorry if you’re disappointed, but we thought that it was a good idea to give an overview of what has happened in the eilitetorrents case over the years ;)
I personally think this case is underreported. People went to jail for seeding a movie….
I’m sure not everyone is a informed as you are…
10 years for uploading 1 movie…
2 years for raping/beating someone…
See, that’s equal
*cough*
Wow, the American legal system is a total disaster, if a man can be sent to jail for 10 years for shearing a movie. That means that all of the public libraries in the US would have to be shut down. This is fucking ridiculous, I say we overthrow the government and kill all of these fascist fucks that run our shit.
What a load of SH*T! As I always say, “It’s not innocence or guilt, it’s how much money you have and can spend”. On one hand I can’t believe the US government devoted time to this, on the other it just shows me anything is possibly under King Bush and minion Cheney! This just proves that our government, under Bush, cares more about big business since they (big business) are the ones that fatten their pockets the most! I HATE AMERICA! I am so embarrassed to be a citizen of this pathetic, look out for only the rich people country! Our President and Vice President are oil men who only look out for big business. Why else would Bush veto a bill to stop giving the oil companies $12+ billion in tax breaks! God help us if McCain becomes president! He is Bush’s mini-me! All young people get off of your asses and VOTE! If young people vote then Obama will win. We DO NOT need another rich old white man as president again! (I am Caucasian and I BELIEVE THAT!) We need to do something about this guy getting prison time. What a joke! Our prisons are already overflowing with pointless drug cases. We don’t need more people in prison that had no reason for even being tried! Lets stand up and protest, email, write letters and start petitions! Lets put something on the ballot that changes copyright law. Show the fat cats that we won’t stand for big business pushing us around because they have money for lobbyist and bribes! This should be the straw that breaks the camel’s back! We will not stand for one of “us” being put in prison with rapist, pedophiles and murders because some greedy extortionist company wants even more money because they’re not happy with the billions in profits that they already make every year! I SAY STAND UP!!! FREE DANIEL DOVE! FREE DANIEL DOVE! FREE DANIEL DOVE! FREE DANIEL DOVE! FREE DANIEL DOVE! FREE DANIEL DOVE!
They might of leak it them selfs to Sk0t to start the ball rolling and get the FPI involved.
@11: It was allegedly a Hollywood
insider that initially distributed
the workprint release of RoTS.
The only effective way to take action against them is to defy them in the open – file-share in the eye of the public. Perhaps distributing CDs in the streets or something, but it must be public.
if its rele a gud movie ppl will buy it, if not dey save $10 and lose 1GB of bandwith. Legalize P2P, ITS FAIR
This is the way to dismantle the RIAA – have someone, preferably someone the public would sympathize with, distribute CDs on the streets, so that that people will know that there is a problem of copyright that they cannot ignore.
This is fuckin hidious, I can’t believe people are sentenced to jail for sharing a file!!! this is fuckin retarded.
MPAA should fuck off, and I still don;t know why the FBI is investigating this case? National Security is on the line? o.O
I hope they’ll take down more torrentsites that distribute copyrighted material to the public.
I can see the couble moral filesharers have. They think it should be legal to download copyrighted material. But stealing money from someone or commit a bank robbery should be illegal. L0LZ!
Most filesharers have an IQ of 50.
@ #16
and judging by your grammar most anti-file sharers have an IQ of 10.
@16
I have deprived you of nothing by copying a file and, according to the psych evaluation I had during High School, My IQ is in the 160s.
What you’re essentially saying is that you want the law to for me to give you money even if what you’re selling is worthless crap that I wouldn’t have paid for even if I couldn’t have previewed it on P2P.
Oh, and I’m actually living below the poverty line, so good luck getting any money out of me. Given how many CDs I used for backups, The CRIA (I’m Canadian) actually owes ME money from all the subsidies they get on blank media sales here. The more music I download without explicitly paying for it, the more fair things will get in my case.
Department of Homeland Security? You’re telling me the people who are supposed to make the U.S. not get blown up by terrorists spend their time hunting prerelease uploaders?
And what was the time between the Star Wars upload and the raid? The article makes it sound like it was overnight, surely it took a decent amount of time?
@18 and @19
It seems like #16 is not an anti-file-sharer, but merely someone with really bad grammar, so you misunderstood whatever this person was saying, although it is very difficult to understand (because it has bad grammar).
The most apt analogy is not shoplifting from a store, but rather, copying materials from a store. Imagine there were a device that could copy physical objects so that there were multiple copies of them. Then this would be a marvelous way to supply everyone with food, and to reduce the price of distribution and mass production to zero. To copy things on a computer is like that – one is copying things, so that essentially this copying supplies everyone with culture, with no distribution or mass production costs at all.
“@18 and @19
It seems like #16 is not an anti-file-sharer, ”
for some reason the numbers are no longer the same. I was talking about the asshat that wrote “I hope they’ll take down more torrentsites that distribute copyrighted material to the public.” etc.
> “I can see the couble moral filesharers have. They think it should be legal to download copyrighted material. But stealing money from someone or commit a bank robbery should be illegal. L0LZ!”
Bank Robbery = Stealing
File Sharing = Not Stealing
:)
that which can be copied by anybody at next to zero cost has very little economic value
it is a fundamental of economics that profit is a function of supply. when supply is limitless at no cost then there is no value
the value of digital media resides not in the content but in the container. mass digital media is a vehicle delivering significant value in terms of brand equity
http://www.h33t.com
@24,
“Bank Robbery = Stealing
File Sharing = Not Stealing”
File sharing copyrighted criminal files is the same thing as stealing.
It’s worse be involved in criminal filesharing than robbery, imo. Because only weak criminals hide behind their computer screens while they are involved in criminal activities.
Real men go out IRL and commit a robbery!
Yes, my grammar is bad but im from Japan. :)
The world was built on copying, every single thing around you has been copyed from something or nother.. how do you think we have wheels? We should be sued for copying the wheel from the caveman..
If I could copy every single one of my possessions and give it to someone, I would. But fact is, computers are the only thing that can copy stuff, and the stuff is really not that big of a deal.. music? Why wouldnt you want to SHARE music? What good could come from being selfish?
This is unbeliveble!
http://www.keygen.ru
Probably because its pretty obvious the FEDs have WAY too much Spare time on their little grubby hands.
JT
http://www.Privacy-Center.ent
Probably because its pretty obvious the FEDs have WAY too much Spare time on their little grubby hands.
JT
http://www.Privacy-Center.Net
I went to see Episode III with a friend the first week it opened. I wasn’t into torrents at all back then because I only had dialup, so I didn’t know anything about this case. If I had, I never would have paid to see the movie!
Actually speaking Pre-Releases give a movie lot more attention than the methods of adverts. used by the companies.
Instead of the FBI spending many dollars on busting file sharers who in most cases HELP advertise a movie/game etc, why don’t they spend the cash on something meaningful like catching an F-ing terrorist living in the USA…
I think that would be worth paying tax for lol
@ 26 – 基國虚멀몇ì³è™šç¨±å¯¦æ²å©´
Well, obviously bank robbery or any physical isn’t a nice crime but effectively it’s a million times worse, usually as it’s armed robbery.
Copying a file means that, an exact copy at the price of nothing. No one loses anything. Software is a non-physical product… no different than if I copyrighted my DNA right?
Bank Robbery means money stolen from an organisation to a group of individuals.
From your stand point it’s ok for an 18 year old to steal from a 12 year old because it’s a real life crime.
File sharing is the way to create a better social understanding.
It’s just great,We get screwed at the pump by the US goverment.And then commoditiy brokers can buy millions of barrels.Then screw small guy then sell.Isn’t the US of A great!! Now, Wew find a nitch to save a buck in torrents.Now they want to turn the knife before dragging it.Better yet,crappy reviews-lose money n ripped off,then charge for a dvd copy.When u f….. wouldn’t get fity cent at yard sale!!
Isn’t the net greatt!!! Courtesy of uncle sam for starting the net.
it does no matter how many judges they corupt, It does not matter how many BT torrent comunity they shut down, the parasites of the entairtainement industry will not make me go to the theater or buy any of their crapy movies.
Fuck the FBI, fuck the judges and fuck the MPAA. They are going nowhere and will not stop people from sharing stuff. So either they negotiate something that make sense for everyone or they will die.
This is that simple. Putting these site administrators in prison is a crime ans some bags of shit at the MPAA are going to pay for that.
I also think it’s incredibly stupid to send someone to jail for something which isn’t even wrong, no matter what the law says.
This is another reason why we should all boycott DVDs, CDs, cinema etc.. It’s just lining the pockets of those idiots even more.
I think the “problem” of file sharing wouldn’t exist, if the media companies early had recognized the internet as an important new medium. If movies were easily available on the internet for a reasonable(!) price, there was no need to share files.
But there’s the problem with that kind of capitalism you find in western societies. Everyone is trying to make as much money as they can, so much they can’t even possibly spend, just for the sake of it. Actor’s and film makers get paid ridicilous amounts of money compared to the common worker, who works his ass off 8 hours a day.
Profits of hundreds of millions of dollars don’t make those people happy, they constantly need to feed their greed, instead of realizing that they are making already way too much money and that they could easily drop prices.
Don’t get me wrong, Capitalism is the right thing, in my opinion, but it has gotten a out of hand! One percent of the world population owns 40% of the wealth. It needs to be restricted.
I think the problem is not file sharing, but the increasing disparity! The average person earns 2.200$ a month, where as some of the richer people, but by far not the richest, like actors, earn more than that at one single day of their “work”.
So the world has far greater problems than file sharing, problems that are actual problems. File sharing is only a sign. I wonder what the future will bring, but certainly it cannot go on like this for very long. The increasing poor masses won’t stand still forever.
Seriously, there should be an international boycott of movies, music etc until those fucking terrorist (MPAA or whatever) kills themselves!
i bet some of the FBI themselves are downloading illegal shits right now
@37
I agree with you 100%, the problem extends much further afield than file sharing, into all corners of society and our lives. The good thing about file sharing is that it gives the everyday joe a chance to fight back. There’s needs to be a more responsible form of capitalism, profits and growth cannot and will not go on forever.
I meant @39, not @37.
everyone knows the US goverment sucks and always will no matter who they elect as they all have an IQ of 8 which is still hihger than any other american lol
nuke u$a now ! the u$a think they own the world to rule it worst than nazis, this must stop now, so don’t vote and start rioting and killing all those who are member of the u$ totalitarian dictatorship
bank robbery is not stealing, only property is theft
You know why this annoys me so much? Because the police and the FBI and government are wasting their time and our money chasing down “criminals” or copyright infringement oppose to, I dont know, finding real criminals who commit real crimes such as terrorist. But instead, the are doing the bidding of the entertainment industry
If you don’t like it, then get off your asses and vote!
The USA is built on copying intellectual property; Edison was a pirate; Fox (of 20th C. Fox) was a pirate; One of the reasons the USA was established was so copyright law could be flouted with impunity…
@26
It is best to reduce the price of everything to zero, but just because something is free, doesn’t mean it has no value. Just because oxygen is free, doesn’t mean that it has no value. If works that can be on a computer were all as free as oxygen, then they still would have value because they are useful, and people would still want to create them because it has such value.
Also, brand equity is a negative force in whatever could be free. Artists do not do things in “brands” – art and software are works unto themselves.
http://www.free-consoles.com
MPAA deliberately uploads a crappy pre-release to a torrent site then goes running to the FBI to have the site shut down. Hell of a way to take down a BT site.
I have watched game studios that have made some of my favorite games in the world fall victim to file sharing and profit shortfalls. Year after year big corporations muscle in on smaller game designers dumbing down our games and shoring up their profit/loss margins.
In the end file sharing and illegal downloads have seriously impacted the smallest parts of the movie/gaming/music industry. Its the big guy you all stand opposed to and the small guy you are hurting. People earn livings making these games, indie films, and small label music. Its not the corporations that really feel the sting. The small guys find the profit margins too small to make what could be a hit record with music you will never get to hear or the next big game.
You are trying to destroy the giant lizard standing in the city but the city is taking the brunt of your assault.
I see a lot of you guys saying that you hate the USA and you hate Big Corporations but how many of you bought the latest iphone or Ipod or PS3? Who gave them the money to throw us in jail? I admit that I have a PS2 and a Dreamcast and 15 yrs ago I was a purchaser of CDs. We have created a giant. We used to find entertainment singing songs around a campfire. We used to know our neighbors. Maybe it’s time we went back to the simple life with simple entertainment when we got a kick out of Uncle Bob’s new song that he just wrote or a hymn that your mother had been humming all day.
And for those planning on handing CDs out in the streets, I think they got a law for that, too. It’s called bootlegging. Technically I think it’s only against the law if you take money for shared CD but if it happens in the USA, you can bet they’ll find a way to charge you anyway.
I am not going to comment on all the people who say that filesharing is the end-all-be-all of crimes in this day-in-age, however I will comment on the fact that Daniel was found guilty. I am not so much concerned that he was found guilty, because frankly we broke the law, but I am concerned that 12 ‘peers’ *do you get the irony in that* found him guilty of something I would be willing to bet, some of them do. Hyocrisy.
Has the original #16 been removed, cos the comments about it don’t seem to make sense?
What more proof do you need that the war on terror is a farse. They are worried about movie sharing with supposedly millions of muslims planning to kill us? What a joke.
If any of you ever get picked up on a crime and the plaintiff is a huge multi-million dollar corporation, don’t do what Daniel Dove did, REPRESENT YOURSELF. INSIST ON HAVING NO LAWYER. You can bet that the corporations will be able to out-bid your lawyer. If you can give your lawyer $10,000, you can bet the corporation against you can pay your lawyer $100,000. Who do you think the lawyer will side with? You telling me it can’t happen? It happened to me. I’m a convicted felon. My lawyer did not prepare for my trial. I was up against a million dollar corporation. When I get out of prison, I found out that the lawyer that “represented” me just opened up his own restaurant, now where do you think he got the money to do that? Trust me. Represent yourself. Who better can tell the jury about yourself, than you.
How about those of you who are railing against the Feds and companies about this let me borrow your car, oh and your house and maybe your wife, I may or may not let someone else borrow them from me too. And no you don’t get to tell me what I can or cannot do with them.
So how about it?
Like it or not, someone STOLE a copy of the script and posted it to a share site. News flash for you; The person who did it is guilty of theft and those who knowingly downloaded it are ALSO guilty, recieving stolen property is a crime you know.
I want to know where some of you get off thinking you have the right to take something I or another has spent time, sweat and money creating and just toss it out for anyone else to use as they see fit?
Sorry people , but that work is MINE, and you have no right to do a damned thing with it without my permission. No right at all.
“I have watched game studios that have made some of my favorite games in the world fall victim to file sharing and profit shortfalls. Year after year big corporations muscle in on smaller game designers dumbing down our games and shoring up their profit/loss margins.”
And that is exactly the fault of copyright. They dumb down their games because they don’t care about the games – only the profits. Year after year, the game studios fall victim to greed, and copyright is at fault for it.
“Sorry people , but that work is MINE, and you have no right to do a damned thing with it without my permission. No right at all.”
Sorry you twat, but you are the scum of the Earth. You are an idiot who just wants money, a selfish idiot. Art is for the good of humanity, and you hog money for yourself. If you are poor, then good riddance for your extortion.
“Like it or not, someone STOLE a copy of the script and posted it to a share site. News flash for you; The person who did it is guilty of theft and those who knowingly downloaded it are ALSO guilty, recieving stolen property is a crime you know.”
You are the one who is stealing money away from everyone. If there were a technology that could make duplicates of material, like food, then nobody would be hungry. But you are the one who insists that everyone needs to pay you for food, and not use the duplicating device for it, or they go hungry. You are avarice.
“I want to know where some of you get off thinking you have the right to take something I or another has spent time, sweat and money creating and just toss it out for anyone else to use as they see fit?”
If there were a device that could copy food from a grocery store, then what reason is there not to use it? A copying device that could make duplicates of food would feed millions.
“I see a lot of you guys saying that you hate the USA and you hate Big Corporations but how many of you bought the latest iphone or Ipod or PS3? Who gave them the money to throw us in jail? I admit that I have a PS2 and a Dreamcast and 15 yrs ago I was a purchaser of CDs. We have created a giant. We used to find entertainment singing songs around a campfire. We used to know our neighbors. Maybe it’s time we went back to the simple life with simple entertainment when we got a kick out of Uncle Bob’s new song that he just wrote or a hymn that your mother had been humming all day.”
It’s the people fault for buying their shit. And it’s copyright’s fault for supplying them with money so that they can continue their shit.
“Its the big guy you all stand opposed to and the small guy you are hurting. People earn livings making these games, indie films, and small label music. Its not the corporations that really feel the sting. The small guys find the profit margins too small to make what could be a hit record with music you will never get to hear or the next big game.”
And since when did the small guys make much profit in the first place? Nobody small person wants to be stupid and be like “give me money or you won’t get this.” They just want to get their names out as much as possible. P2P is helping the small people. P2P, not the copyright regime, is the one that could help people discover the small people.
“And for those planning on handing CDs out in the streets, I think they got a law for that, too. It’s called bootlegging. Technically I think it’s only against the law if you take money for shared CD but if it happens in the USA, you can bet they’ll find a way to charge you anyway.”
How about, it’s simply copyright violation. If police acts, then there will only be martyrdom.
“You are trying to destroy the giant lizard standing in the city but the city is taking the brunt of your assault.”
The problem is mainstream society is too caught up with the mainstream copyright culture. The cause of the problem is copyright.
“How about those of you who are railing against the Feds and companies about this let me borrow your car, oh and your house and maybe your wife, I may or may not let someone else borrow them from me too. And no you don’t get to tell me what I can or cannot do with them.”
News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.
“News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
The way to compete with file-sharing websites is simply to have a service where people can pay to get it earlier – simply put, if one releases things continuously, always faster than file-sharing websites, then people will be willing to pay for getting things before other people.
Just to be the unpopular but moral voice in the crowd:
THEY BROKE COPYWRITE LAW. WHEN YOU BREAK THE LAW, YOU GO TO JAIL. Why are you surprised? Don’t be surprised – this happens everyday – people who break the law and are caught are punished.
This is not about your childish ideals of how “good” piracy actually is, nor is it about your retarded sense of entitlement that fuels your childish ideals. It’s not even about the money that the movie companies are or are not losing as a result of your retarded sense of entitlement, childish ideals, and overbearing love of piracy.
It’s only about the law. Law says: Do not do A.
You do A.
The law notices you did A and takes action.
The end.
That’s it.
That’s what it’s about. Break the law = go to jail.
GET
OVER
IT.
Children.
BTW, I despise the RIAA and MPAA, and think they need to get with the times. But you don’t get things for free that cost other people time and money to produce. Justify it all you want, you’re still a criminal and a thief.
“News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
“News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gam “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
be any games to share at “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
ing is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
“News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC g “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some e “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
“News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make gam “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games any “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developi “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exception “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gam “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small c “News flash, it is not about borrowing, or taking, it is about copying. It is about making duplicates. If there were a way to duplicate a car, or a house, so that there were two of them, then everybody would be all right.”
Oh. My. God. I swear to myself I won’t jump into internet debates because of the level of discourse there (or lack thereof), but this logic takes the cake. You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.
The penalty here is crazy for what they did, but I too am a gamer. By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
ompanies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
ing is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
s, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
forego developing on the PC.
ng on the PC.
GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
more.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
es anymore.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
xceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
aming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).
We are our own worst enemy. There won’t be any games to share at some point, as more developers forego developing on the PC.
If something is illegal, it doesn’t make it morally wrong. Just as if something is legal doesn’t make it morally right.
How can it be stealing when someone is willing to share it with me and I’m willing to share it to others, there’s no physical product, no money changing hands, voluntary. I know, it’s not mine to give away etc.. But if you don’t want people to have your films and music then keep it to yourself, don’t release it for the almighty buck. If you only do it to make money then you deserve the ‘evil piracy’.
If everybody pirated stuff then there would be nothing new being made. How can this be true? It would certainly get rid of all the crap for sure. Just look at open source software, Jamendo, PlaneShift etc.. It may be hard for some to believe, but people do do things just for the love of it, for free. It’s what makes life worth living and lifes to short.
Jailing the admins is like Jailing a car manufacture because there was a bank robbery.
What sort of steps can take place to taking back our government from the corporate interests?
Maybe make corporations not have rights as individuals in court?
Wolf
“but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business.”
It would be better if the industry did not need to exist. Creative engineers and car designers who make new models can still be in business through patronage and advertisement. But the industry itself does not need to exist.
Similarly, PC gaming can exist through the human nature’s will to create, through patronage, and through advertisement.
@ 26 – 基國虚멀몇ì³è™šç¨±å¯¦æ²å©´
TROLL. TROLL. TROLL. TROLL. TROLL.
YOU ARE A LYING POS.
STOP PRETENDING TO BE JAPANESE YOU’RE NOT FOOLING ANYONE.
Your name is just a crappy mix of east asian characters.
“You may be right, but then the homebuilders and everybody around that industry would go out of business…
By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free.”
The only homebuilders or gaming industry that needs to exist are the ones that design new homes, or new games, not the ones that make copies of old ones.
People want to create new things because they value it, or because they want name recognition. Creativity exists because it is beneficial to the public. It is a respectable thing to do, which is why people would want to do so, either to be respected, or out of respect.
Money is not an issue, but if people needed money to live, and had no alternative to making money other than creativity, then the people who value creativity would care for those people through patronage. Advertisement is also another way for it to happen. Besides, musicians make money through live performances. Most of all, the best way is simply to render a service where they simply offer to create more as long as people pay.
@ 80
You do know these brain-washed corporate drones can’t stand the thought of not buying things from “the industries,” don’t you?
Have a little compassion.
@73 Sean and other pro RIAA/MPAA data/information gatekeeper people
When they start sending people to jail for 10 years for painting their house the same color as someone else’s house or dressing like someone else then maybe you will change your point of view regarding this madness. It’s one thing to charge money and risk your livelihood (foolishly) on something that is innately nonphysical (data/information) and yet another to send people to prison for sharing COPIES of it.
@83
They are the old way of doing things, and they do not need to be there anymore. For people, rather than industries, to make copies and create the supply is an advancement.
For the purposes of goodness of humanity, monopolies such as this to extract money from people have perished, and through the efforts of humans. Remember the progressive era – the monopolistic trusts have been busted during that time. Similarly, such monopolies such as one industry has over making copies through copyright must also go down.
Why should the people value the industry? If the creation and distribution of copies can be almost free (save for some costs of electricity, computer hardware, and internet, etc.), then there does not need to be such a wasteful industry anymore. The only thing that people need are the creative ones who create new things, and the best way for that to happen is to render a service to create new works in exchange for money. Such patronage is better than a wasteful monopoly.
If there were a copying device that could copy food, then it would be absurd to outlaw it just because farmers would go out of business. Sometimes, when human labour is replaced by a cheaper and better way of doing things, many had to go out of business and change jobs, because they were no longer useful. But such is still progress, just like the industrial revolution, which put many artisans out of business, is also progress.
@73
This is not what is there. This is about what should be there. You are not the moral voice, but merely the factual voice. The moral voice says, “file-sharing is not stealing, or taking, or using other people’s things. It’s making copies, duplicates of things, just like how it would be okay to make duplicates of a car or a house if such a thing were possible. It is simply wrong to put people in jail because of this. When people are jailed unjustly, then the law itself is unjust.”
“Point being – THINK! With some exceptions, PC gaming is dying (think of all the small companies that made GREAT games that went under).”
Well, with Diablo III coming out, maybe things will get better.
“The only homebuilders or gaming industry that needs to exist are the ones that design new homes, or new games, not the ones that make copies of old ones.”
Do you play games that were sold retail? Pick one you like (Crysis? COD4? NWN? Halo? If you don’t like those, pick one you do like) and then answer this-
Would that game have been made if it had to be done for free? Those games cost MILLIONS to make. If it is somehow morally wrong for the guys who slaved over those games to expect to get paid more than a one-time $50 fee, then you and I live on completely different planets.
“By the lovely logic here, a game company should spend millions making ONE copy of a game, and then let everyone else copy it for free. WTF??? The imaginary day where that happens is the day that this will be a non-issue, because nobody would make games anymore.”
Just because they aren’t paid for any more than one copy, doesn’t mean that people will stop making games. People naturally want to be creative – it is human nature, and besides, it earns them prestige, so of course people will continue to make games if they can be freely copied. But if this is not enough, and they need money to live or for other things, then they can still get the proper patronage so that they can continue; there just needs to be a new business model. The fans would care and give them money, and they could sell advertisement through their prestige as a creator of games. In addition, they could simply set up a service where they offer to create more games if enough people pay.
I’m not in the industry. I’m a normal guy who lives in central PA, works a 9-5 job, but recognizes that the team of 20-40 guys at Obsidian in a small office building in Huntington Beach, CA weren’t working for free, and have families to feed too.
@26
The only brand equity that needs to exist is the brand equity of the original designer(s) or creators. There is no need for any brand equity of industry.
You guys can keep justifying this to make yourselves feel better, but it doesn’t change what you’re doing. Yes, there will still be games if developers can’t get paid for them, just not as many. Many great ones would be the casualties.
Perhaps there does need to be a new business model, but until there is, the current model is the one way the people who make the retail games can continue to do so.
Look at the most-recently announced Battlefield game as an example of what we can expect if the trend continues. Gone is the cutting edge. Say hello to a low-res, ad-supported, free to play game, so that piracy isn’t an issue. It could be fun, but it’s still a shame that the prior type of game is either sidetracked, or might be a casualty if this one makes enough money.
Thanks guys!
Stealing = profits for the few
Sharing = free for all.
The banks is a scam everyone who do business with them have to pay interest, get loans and put yourself in a bigger financial burden. If we want to be free then we must do away with profits, loans, and debt.
That’s all I’m saying… Please don’t censor anything let this be free for all
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Your response is awaiting moderation.
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Just as I thought, this site are run by christians. haha what paranoid freaks.
I’m sad to see that this has happened, but to be honest I don’t know why anyone would want to watch any of that star wars shite, it’s total dross and Lucas has been milking every last dollar out of the dorks who watch it for years.
FUCK THE MPAA!!!
“Perhaps there does need to be a new business model, but until there is, the current model is the one way the people who make the retail games can continue to do so.”
The new business model is for people to patronize the makers in exchange for a higher quality game.
“Say hello to a low-res, ad-supported, free to play game, so that piracy isn’t an issue. It could be fun, but it’s still a shame that the prior type of game is either sidetracked, or might be a casualty if this one makes enough money.”
People can still spend much effort on a game – they have their prestige to care for; they have their relation to the people to care for. People will still want high-quality games, and creators will be encouraged to do so because people want it, because there is the people’s wishes for the game to care for, and the people might also be able to collaborate. And besides, if they need any money to create the game, then the people who care for it will patronize the creator. It is much superior for there to be a more personal rather than an economic relationship between creator and consumer, and much superior if the consumer played a bigger role in the creation.
The people who create games don’t need to be separate from the consumers. There could be a more personal relationship between those who create games and those who create them, and perhaps everybody can be a part of its creation. People who like playing games can also play a part in its development, and perhaps everybody can be a part of it. If there is anyone who is exceptional at its development, then perhaps people can patronize such a person so that they will continue. But it is not always necessary, because it is human nature to want to satisfy those who want the game, especially if there were a more personal relationship.
If you’re going to make an argument for devs giving away games for free, fine, but please be intellectually honest about it. Do you REALLY think we’d have a game like Crysis or COD4 if they devs were making it for prestige only? Come on. Now you’re just being silly.
@99
Yes. The fact is, people want it, people will want to supply it. If it is of bad quality, at least people will be given a chance to improve on it, and people will want to improve on it.
@100 Have fun in your dream world, where you obviously know nothing of game design.
@101
The promise of money does not create good games. Rather, people who create good games decide that they could make some money off of it because of copyright. Not the other way around.
It takes much effort, but people are willing to spend the effort if people want it. The people who want the games will be the ones who create them. After all, if people really wanted a good game to exist, and not just bad-quality games, then why would a person want to create such a thing?
@99
You don’t believe that people are not willing to put in the sacrifice of time and effort to make great games? Now that is laughable.
Blah, in 103, I meant to ask “You don’t believe that people are willing to put in the sacrifice of time and effort to make great games if they really value them?”
What’s with the influx of industry defenders in here? Is this article linked to from somewhere else? Every once in a while you get a flood of these people (on a site called TorrentFreak), you have to wonder…
There is nothing industry can do that ordinary people cannot. The only thing industry is motivated by is money, and so they create “great” games. But the people are able to do better – it takes much time and effort, and perhaps even many years, but if people really want the game to be made, then why would people want to join in in its creation?
I found my way here to this article via Digg. I’m not in the industry, but I gotta say, I wouldn’t want to live in a world where we only had free games. If you think the amount and quality of the games wouldn’t drop, you’re only kidding yourself. It’s a simple time issue. Just look at the good mod teams – most of the modders have days jobs, and as a result many projects take eons to finish, or die out. Sure, some nice stuff is released, but the number is small.
@106 – Please point me to these free games on par with games like COD4 and Crysis. I’m not being sarcastic. If they’re out there, I really want to play them.
Cripes. Fly games! Be free! Devs are working for prestige! I’ve never seen such convoluted BS reasoning in my life. This is like my crazy aunt who self-rationalized her wacky religious beliefs that my game playing was the work of the devil. You can make yourself feel good all you want by keep telling yourself that you’re not stealing, but that don’t make it true.
Stop f——-ng up my hobby! 2 of my favorite devs have gone out of business because of you jerkoffs. If free stuff is so great, go play it and stay in your mom’s basement! Better yet, get a job!
“if the FBI was really behind the shutdown they would’ve made a better job of the page design than this, surely?”
They’re the FBI, not web page designers. When I heard that this had happened and went to look at the site, I was surprised that it was that good. If anything, what I’d expect after a raid would have been a short text message with no embellishment at all.
Danm
“Those who wish to hurt you, work within the law…”
– Morrissey
Mods, ^^^^^ quoting Morrissey should be grounds for immediate permaban. Too bad it’s anonymous.
I don’t get it. They haven’t physically stolen anything. Once it’s been released, that’s it end of story.
There are worse crimes out there. Why charge people for sharing a file, regardless of it’s so called *legality*?
Are these guys earning a profit out of these uploads? No. Are they physically stealing it from someone else? No. Are they selling off access to these torrents? Absolutely not. There is nothing that these people should have been charged with.
It’s another example of how the rich get richer and the poor get poorer…
“It’s a simple time issue. Just look at the good mod teams – most of the modders have days jobs, and as a result many projects take eons to finish, or die out.”
If people who make games have no other jobs, or want to dedicate their time and quit their other jobs, then people can patronize them, pay them so that they can live and only make games.
“Please point me to these free games on par with games like COD4 and Crysis. I’m not being sarcastic. If they’re out there, I really want to play them.”
They are not there because if people endeavoured to make them for free, and it turned out great, they would figure, “let’s squeeze some money out of this” because of copyright.
“I’ve never seen such convoluted BS reasoning in my life. This is like my crazy aunt who self-rationalized her wacky religious beliefs that my game playing was the work of the devil. You can make yourself feel good all you want by keep telling yourself that you’re not stealing, but that don’t make it true.”
They can still be patronized so that they can spend the time and effort into it without having to attend to other jobs. I mean, if people want such games so badly, then they could simply help the developers by paying their living expenses.
If developers need to quit their day jobs in order to dedicate their time to develop games, then the simple solution is for people who want the games to patronize them – there are many people who want such games made, so why would they not want to pay the developer’s living expenses? It’s a simple thing – just because people are not paying through buying games, doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t want to force developers to take an alternative day job and not spend much time on developing games – indeed, there are tons of people who want such games, and they could simply pay the developer’s living expenses.
@115. Um, OK . . .
Wow.
Holy crap, are you people on crack? (115 and 116)
I’m going to assume you’re just joking around and goading me with those kinds of posts. Or, you’re like 12.
@116 So how do we determine who “wants” the game? If you steal it, does that mean you want it and should help with the living expenses? Or should we just say only those who pay the living expenses want the game, and therefore get the game?
@119 Dude, you’re trying to reason with a 13-year-old. You could point out all the gaping holes in that logic (that’s an insult to the word “logic”), but you’re not going to get anywhere. Just move on.
Yea, you’re right. I feel like I’m talking to the wall.
It is people who want to help the development of the game. If one takes a copy of the game without helping the creator, then one can conclude that one doesn’t really care about it. But it’s useful for getting them to care about it – they might later on want more and better games, so they would help with development. But that’s only if there is no copyright.
You see, there is nothing absurd about this – what’s wrong with helping developers make games by paying them? What’s wrong with the ordinary people collectively being patron of the arts? A more personal relationship between those who pay and those who create the games is better. It’s a simple way to do things, much better than with copyright. The developers would want to create it to satisfy those people who want it, because the developer would care about those people, and those people in return would pay the developer in exchange for the troubles. It is more “pay for creating games” than “pay for getting a copy” – this is a better way of doing things.
The only reason massive collective efforts for creating great games is because people believe that they need to be done for profit.
It’s copyright’s fault for that, making the only value of it to be for money. As a result, the only reason people make games is to squeeze money out of people. But really, without copyright, things would be a whole lot better, as anybody could try to create a great game, and not have to be employed by some company – rather, they would be paid by the gaming community who pays them so that they will continue to develop games. People naturally want great games – so why wouldn’t people want to spend the time and effort into it? Time is the only issue – and the problem of living expenses could be solved easily.
You only think that my idea is crazy because you can’t comprehend the fact that developers can get money other than from sales, or that you can’t comprehend the fact that people would care for the developers and give them money if they there was no alternative – you just can’t comprehend that developers are supposed to create games for the good of the public, and those amongst the public who want to, can pay the developers for what good they do. You forget that developers are actually humans – there is a humanity in what they do in the development of games, so you forget the fact that people would care for the developer personally for the development of games, allowing them to spend the time they need to make great games.
“People naturally want great games – so why wouldn’t people want to spend the time and effort into it?”
Me and my friends naturally want to get laid every night – so why wouldn’t women want to spend the time and effort into it?
@125
Maybe because you and women are two different people – you see, anybody can be a game developer – it takes time and effort and experience, yes, but anybody can be a game developer. If there were no copyright so they couldn’t squeeze money off of it, then the only barrier is living expenses, which creates the barrier of time needed to get some other day job, but this can easily be solved, by people paying them, by people who want to pay them so that they can continue to make games.
Even if some people download shit for free there will always be the people that are way to stupid to figure p2p out so there will always be some people out there helping the MPAA & RIAA get richer! Here is an idea! If you want me to buy your CD for $15 offer me more then a cheap plastic case and a flimsy 6 page insert! Make it worth it for me to buy it! P2P is not losing these companies money, it’s the RIAA, MPAA etc.. crazy antics, suing 70 years olds and dead people. I will never buy another CD or movie again because of what these companies are doing! They are worse then p2p users! They are hurting themselves!
Kiddie porn all over 4chan, so what do the FBI do? Ignore it. Shut down clean torrent sites instead. FBI make me sick. Why doesn’t the MPAA pay them instead of the taxpayer? They don’t do shit for the taxpayer.
Hey FBI Guy if you’re reading this shame on you.
it probably was someone with the MPAA/lucasfilms that distributed it to the site…
It’s called stealing dumb ass.
This is a sad story, but shows just how much power coporate interlectual property owners have these days.
With such a big case an such a significant leak at Lucas one could almost think that it was leaked on purpose. It definitely had a double effect serving both as promotion as well as sending an aggressive signal to the p2p communities.
I hope that all of you guys will be remembered as the heroes and pioneers you are, in some other time in a better and less corporate world, in a hopefully not such a distant future.
Thank you for fighting for what’s right! Thank you for fighting for me!
Sharing is Caring!!!
@16 Its hard to know what ur saying but how do u validate ur claim that file sharing is stealing, when I say its perfectly legal? I suppose all the freeware, shareware, and trials uploaded by developers are also illegal? That’s just a retarded view with no value. Same with free music and files distributed by copyright owners.
Wow, Well if i were the guy and i got caught i would sue the FBI for stealing my LOGO. Therefore the FBI themselves committed copyright infringement. Also, Do they not need a warrant to commence a raid? Even if it was a digital one?
@130
No, it’s called copying, making duplicates.
Finally. I hope everyone will continue to shut up about PC gaming.
Keep kidding yourselves boys.
You’re right on this patron thing. After all the devs shut down after the suspension of copyright, I’ll become a “patron” to keep game making alive. After I pay millions to support a team and wait years for them to deliver the game I want, you really think I’m going to share it with you leeching knuckleheads?
@137
You’ve got it quite wrong, I mean, even leeching knuckleheads play their role in helping the game, and lots of people want to help make such games if nobody else would. You see, a community is a better way of doing things – people won’t just stay passive consumers, they will be active participants in the development of games.
No, you missed my point. I will hire a top notch development house to make the game I want for me. And I won’t share it with you. You can go enjoy your free game, which you seem to think is going to be so great. Have fun with that.
I think it was the studio’s who uploaded it originally with the full backing of the FBI in order to catch all these so-called “downloading films funds terrorism” participants.
addendum:
The reason the original up-loader is nowhere to be seen is because it was probably a stooge of George Lucas anyway and everything was done with his blessing.
The flaw on both sides of this goofy “patron” argument is that it forgets about consoles. Get rid of copyright, and developers will still be able to be motivated by profit, as they will just move to developing for consoles, where stealing isn’t much of an issue. Just kiss goodbye to PC games, aside from the ones developed by those who weren’t good enough to get a job making console games. So yea, I guess you could say that stealing games is killing PC gaming, just not all gaming.
Yea, but console gaming sucks. If you like PC gaming, you jerkwads are your own worst enemy, for you won’t have anything to pirate when all the pro developers have moved to consoles, and the less talented (plus a small few who remain behind on principle) are the only ones left to make PC games.
“Despite the massive resources at the disposal of the FBI and supposed importance of the case, the person that originally leaked the Episode 3 workprint copy direct from Lucas is nowhere to be seen.”
Straight up! Doesn’t matter how many torrent sites they take down, the entertainment industry will never be able to kill the scene.
“the entertainment industry will never be able to kill the scene.”
You guys are doing that yourselves, without even knowing it.
“the less talented”
The fact is that there is far more potential in allowing everyone and anyone to make improvements rather than just have a single developer in charge of it.
You’ve got it all wrong when you think that people who download are automatically leeches who contribute nothing. The fact is that people, upon acquiring some software, naturally would want to improve upon it after seeing that it could be improved. Just because people download without paying for it, doesn’t mean that they don’t contribute in some other way.
@146 Maybe so, but when all the great games are being made on consoles, and PC gaming is dead, there won’t be any AAA games around for “everyone and anyone” to make improvements on. You really think that there is suddenly going to be this huge onslaught of freely developed PC games to replace all the games that are moved to consoles? Maybe some, but it will be a fraction of the games that are available now. Way to kill PC gaming, guys.
@147 The point is, when all the star developers have moved to consoles, there won’t be anything to improve on, aside from the crumbs that the free/mod community typically turns out. To play AAA games, you’ll need a console. Then you’ll really need to feed the coffers of “The Man” to play games. Call it what you want, but 99.99% of the people who steal games have contributed ZERO. You can try to make it sound noble all you want, but they are leeches who are just looking to save a buck.
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Sharing will never die
Amen
@152 Sharing games will. When copyright dies or the stealing gets too much for the Establishment to stomach, game makers will come up with locked down systems (like consoles), leaving us in the cold. We’ll still have mod teams and the like, but the amount of games will pale in comparison to how it is now.
“the crumbs that the free/mod community typically turns out” are only crumbs now because of copyright – you see, it is all eventually usurped by commercial interests. There will be much more of free games that are better when copyright is gone.
@153
If copyright is gone, and they try to come up with bigger and more complex DRM, then there is nothing stopping huge teams of people to break down the DRM effectively rendering it useless. Eventually, the only way will be to release it for free, and to offer services to improve/mod games.
The reason why free games are bad now is because nobody pays attention to them, because all games that are good become commercial. When copyright is gone, more attention will be paid to free games.
@154 and 155. I’m going to assume that you just didn’t read my post, and that explains why your post made the same points as earlier posts and didn’t address any of the new points.
I could care less about PC DRM, as we all know that is always crackable. I’m saying the day will come where the “commerical interests” will make games only on consoles, and that’s where the good developer talent will be.
Crack the consoles all you want, BUT I WANT TO PLAY GAMES ON MY PC. Only crap will be left on the PC. This so-called “free community” will never develop because the “commerical interests” will still be there, just making games on consoles. The talent will be bought out by commercial interests, and make games on consoles, so all we have is crap.
If consoles are cracked, then what is there to stop people from modding them to transfer them to PC, or in any other way to modify them to transfer them to any format at all? The talent will mostly be on improving previous games or using elements from previous games to make them better.
They always say morality is relative, and these pages illustrate that. I’m not talking laws, I’m talking about a sense of right or wrong. Folks here obviously think it is OK to take something that someone else has spent years working on, for free. In my opinion, you’ve set your moral bar pretty low.
@157 Will anything stop them from modding a console-only game? No. Will anyone bother modding a console-only game? Nope.
History confirms this. The number of AAA PC games has dwindled drastically already, and has a single console-only game been modded by consumers to run on the PC? Don’t say the demand isn’t there. There have been plenty of console games that PC gamers would kill for.
But that’s OK, as I’ll use my fortune to have a developer make the games I want, and I sure as hell won’t be sharing it with you. You can enjoy the fruits of your theft – a console only world, with much fewer PC games.
mazza waz ere ‘08
i support seeders. long live the seeders.
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@158
If you think it’s okay to jail people for doing nothing wrong, then you’re the one who has set your moral bar very low. You’re the one who thinks that the extortion that the copyright holders are doing is actually okay.
@159
Yes, people will bother doing so. It’s just that legal threats have prevented the ambitious from trying anything.
Copyright is the reason why people have no tried to take previous games and modify them to all sorts of things.
@161 That’s where you and I differ. I feel it is up to the content creator to decide if he wants to charge for it or not. If you disagree with his decision, you have the right to not buy it – speak with your wallet. If you steal it, have fun when your cellmate makes you his girlfriend. Don’t make your stealing and cheapness sound like it’s honorable or noble. All you are is a crook trying to save a few bucks, whether you recognize it or not.
Keep living in your dream world guys. Time to say goodbye to the House of Denial. I’ll drop by here again in a few years, when PC gaming is dead due to you morons, and gloat over the games I’m still playing because of the devs I pay myself.
@161
This is not stealing. Do you realize that sometimes it is inaccessible, or that sometimes one just wants to modify things? Both situations are caused by copyright.
The fact is that copying is different from stealing. Making duplicates of a car is different from stealing, if such a thing were possible.
If everybody had a copy of a game, then surely the people who liked it would at least spend the effort in trying to modify it in some way, or even create a new game based off the previous one.
When are we going to just overthrow the government?
@165
As soon as people stop doing nothing just sitting there on the computer typing random shit, as soon as people start getting out there and actually doing things, like voting drives, civil disobedience, rather than doing nothing.
So, it is seems like 164 wants a system in which goods (software) are owned in common and are available to all as needed. It’s a shame we don’t have a name for that. Oh wait, we do. It’s called communism.
It’s a shame we don’t have history to tell us how well communism actually works (how well people produce items without a capitalist incentive). Oh wait, we do. It failed miserably, to the point that people starved. But software will be different, because there’s much more incentive for people to make games than silly stuff like, you know, food. Because with making games, unlike feeding your countrymen and saving your nation, there is prestige.
And God said Let’s Torrent.Amen
Communism failed because there was no way to actually have everybody and anybody have the expertise to actually create copies. For example, to create copies of food is not easy. One needs proper expertise and proper resources to do farming, and it is very strenuous. And not everybody had such resources or expertise. Thus, it failed.
But with computers, people can do such things. Now, everybody has a computer, and not much knowledge is required. The common person can easily create copies.
This is the difference.
Imagine if there were a copying device that could copy anything. Such a device would vastly cheapen the product, so that everybody could have it, and nobody would be stolen from. This would be a marvelous thing to have, as it would feed everybody. Well, we don’t quite have such a thing for food. But we do have such a thing for software and other media. It is called a computer. Only the oppressive copyright is preventing people from doing what is good.
Because of your fixation on one thing (copying) you’re overlooking the main point of the communism/captilism point. To copy, you need the original content to copy. Sadly, there will be more and better choices if there is a financial incentive. You can talk theory all you want, and reference patrons and all that stuff. But, thousands of years of human history have proven you wrong – people will create better and more professional original content when there is a financial incentive.
maybe the leaked copy was leaked on purpose. There was no specific person taking it from Lucas. This was done to entrap all these people.
I went to the theater last week first time in a long time. There were lineups out the door people couldn’t get in and left. I don’t see how P2P is hurting the industry.
Honestly when it comes down to it I have enough in my life to keep me happy & entertained. I can do without movies. This is getting so ridiculous and today Viacom sues youtube? Are we really all that addicted to tech & movies/music/games? And this summer most of the movise suck anyway?
By the way. Since everyone is suing everyone these days : Can we sue the movie industry for false advertising when they say movies are actually good when they turn out to be dogs? Seems fair.
“Despite the massive resources at the disposal of the FBI and supposed importance of the case, the person that originally leaked the Episode 3 workprint copy direct from Lucas is nowhere to be seen.”
I bet… ^-^
@170
Rather, thousand years of human history have proven YOU wrong. Mozart lived before copyright.
I am not very good at website design, but I have attempted to create a pledge for people who are willing to struggle for a cause, so that there might be a chance that we could take action collectively.
It is at http://www.28chan.org/pledge.php
What do you people think?
@173. Wrong again. I’m going to assume that you’re just goofing around now, and not trying to be serious. Do a bit more research, and you’ll see that the average joe’s perception on his income was wrong. Even if he was a pauper, one or a few exceptions doesn’t prove the rule. Sure, there will still be people making games in the future if you guys keep stealing. Even some good ones. But the number of AAA ones will drop dramatically. And you’re either kidding yourself or lying if you say otherwise. It’s called capitalism, silly.
@174
No, they will increase. You see, it is much easier to take previous games, modify them a little, and make them into a new game. People like doing such things, so of course, there will be many more games if there were no copyright.
The fact that many many people spend such strenuous effort into doing things such as cracking software protection or setting up file-sharing websites shows that people are very zealous about software. This zeal comes from the love of such things, not from money.
Keep dreaming. All I’m hearing are lots of excuses as to why the various voids aren’t being met now. People want stuff now.
My time here is done. You have done nothing to change my opinion that you are nothing more than a petty criminal.
@176
I’m hearing lots of excuses as to why you should imprison people and persecute people for doing what they wanted to do with THEIR PROPERTY. When you buy a CD, it is YOURS. I’m hearing lots of excuses as to why you should enable such a gross violation of property rights. CDs are a person’s private property, and the owner of the CD owns it, not any big corporation.
You have done nothing to change my mind that you are nothing more than a person who wants to persecute innocent people.
@176
By the way, you are not just a petty criminal. You are a major criminal who have violated human rights and have committed crimes against humanity by the violating basic morality of putting people in jail who did nothing wrong.
@176
A final word: YOU ARE A DUMBFUCK AND YOU DESERVE TO DIE IN A FIRE. FUCK OFF, YOU RETARD.
@176
A final word: YOU ARE A DUMBF-UCK AND YOU DESERVE TO DIE IN A FIRE. F-UCK OFF, YOU R-ETARD.
Ha ha, you dumbasses. He’s not the one who was so dumb that he got caught and was sitting in prison getting his butt reamed by his cellmate. That numbnuts not only stole, but he couldn’t even figure out how to do it without getting caught! Hahahahahahahahahahhahaha! He;s the one dumbass who didn’t know he was being set up.
Crimes against humanity!!! That’s even funnier. Lowlifes that expect something for nothing aren’t humanity. Hahahahahahahahahaha! Everybody knew you guys were crooks. Now we know you’re stupid too!! hahaha!
You guys are losers, and will always be losers, and are gonna be shakin your fists at the wind for the rest of your lives, and looking over your shoulders too.
Back to your mom’s basements, boys!
Stumble’d it. It’s all bullsh*t man. Just let ‘em go.
Fucking fbi!!!! I hope the guy never gets caught.
Looks, like I think why I’m born in America? Buh.. Oh I mean Bush is a retarded freak and the FBI is acting same? Is this what they are made for?
Instead of looking for public welfare of people they are licking the shits here and there?
FBI – An informal term for:
Fucking Bastards and Idiots
BUSH – An informal term used for:
Bastard Under Shit of Horse
Say yes to Piracy! Together We Can Do It!
Long live the Pirates!
@181
You’re a loser. People who administrate this website, please ban i-di-ot #181. This bas-tard is a waste of our time.
this stuff definitely makes me angry. its already been said but i think before the F.B.I. puts men on computer geeks that share movies, which has virtually no impact on these companies, they should devote manpower to finding the thousands of missing children reported in the U.S., or maybe hunting down violent offender’s. Rapists, murderers, and kidnappers. Not to mention all the other sicko’s who actually cause harm to society. This country is ridiculous and i truly hate some aspects of how our country is run.
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“I can see the couble moral filesharers have. They think it should be legal to download copyrighted material. But stealing money from someone or commit a bank robbery should be illegal. L0LZ!”
Umm, WTF – how the hell do you know exactly? How do you know if I went to the cinema, bought the DVD, cd etc.
Or if I’m a poor Uni studen who wouldn’t buy any of the stuff I download anyhow… GET IT – I buy the stuff I like, so it’s not atealing you tard! I’ll keep at it for as long as I can thanks…
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