ISP Threatens Legal Action Against UK Over Anti-Piracy Plans
Written by enigmax on October 29, 2009Peter Mandelson confirmed yesterday that illicit file-sharers could have their Internet connections severed as part of the government’s aims to reduce piracy by 70% in 2 years. TalkTalk, the UK’s second largest ISP, is said to be dismayed at the decision and is now threatening legal action over what it claims is a breach of human rights.
Back in August the UK government announced tough plans for dealing with online piracy. While the music and movie industries were notably supportive, opposition to the proposals were widespread. Those hoping that politicians might have had second thoughts are disappointed today.
While delaying a final decision until the next parliament, Business Secretary Peter Mandelson yesterday confirmed plans to have UK residents accused of illicit file-sharing disconnected from the Internet as a “last resort”.
Preceded by months of sending warning letters with an aim of achieving a 70% reduction in online piracy by 2011, Mandelson claims that only persistent offenders would be affected by the harshest measures – those accused of infringing copyrights multiple times.
However, downloading a single music track constitutes an infringement, so being accused on the basis of three or four tracks downloaded over a period of months could be enough to have an entire household disconnected from the Internet. Hardly the promised “proportionate” response.
While the Business Secretary is insisting that there will be an independent appeals process to ensure that any accusations are accurate, his words aren’t inspiring confidence with Internet service providers.
Yesterday, BT Group made a statement indicating its concern at the government’s proposals, noting its disappointed that ISPs will have to bear some of the costs of the scheme, resulting in increased prices for broadband customers.
As detailed earlier, those costs are likely to spiral to £365m per annum, putting the alleged music industry piracy “losses” of £200m in the shade.
“We are also interested to hear whether or not customers will have some form of fair legal hearing before their broadband supplier is required to take any action against them,” said BT.
TalkTalk, the UK’s second largest ISP, owner of the Tiscali and AOL brands and operator of the Dont Disconnnect Us website, went much further.
“The approach is based on the principle of ‘guilty until proven innocent’ and substitutes proper judicial process for a kangaroo court. What is being proposed is wrong in principle and it won’t work in practice. We know this approach will lead to wrongful accusations,” said Andrew Heaney, TalkTalk’s Executive Director of Strategy and Regulation.
According to a report this morning, TalkTalk is now threatening to launch legal action if Mandelson makes good on his threats and implements any disconnection scheme without due process.
“If the government moves to stage two we would consider that extra-judicial technical measures and would look to appeal the decision because it infringes human rights,” Heaney told The Guardian. “TalkTalk will continue to resist any attempts to make it impose technical measures on its customers unless directed to do so by a court or recognised tribunal.”
One pressing issue that seems to have been completely ignored is the existence of current copyright laws which are already being used to punish alleged file-sharers in the UK.
Companies like ACS:Law are already making accusations against UK Internet users who they claim are infringing the rights of their clients, demanding £600+ for the alleged infringement of a single music track.
Are we to have a dual system where Internet users can be both disconnected by the government and financially punished by private companies for the same offenses? The government should decide which system is to prevail and pick one, changing the law if necessary.
The full proposals for the graduated response scheme will be detailed in the Digital Economy Bill, set to be published later on this year.
Previously: RIAA Anti-Piracy Partner Clueless About BitTorrent
Next: Pirate Bay Founders Banned From Running The Site
108 Responses
Good for you TalkTalk, take those scumbags to court and kick their asses!
about time someone stood up and told them how it is! i wish mandelson would just piss off
Good on them, shame the ISP is by far the worst when it comes to bandwidth throttling or I’d jump straight on.
Another reason to toss out the useless Labour party.
I wish I believed this was anything more than a publicity stunt for TalkTalk.
Aol
If Mandy wants to play, I’ll f**king play. There are hundreds of ways to hide yourself, each one better than the one before it. If he wants to try to decrypt thousands of VPNs, he can go right ahead.
Good on you, TalkTalk. Your customers are behind you.
in the end, it’s all about money. the reason why talktalk is standing up is because its going to lose money if it has to disconnect its own customers.
@8: Obviously. You don’t see TalkTalk demanding £600 per infringement though, which is why I support them.
makes sense, since isps are the ones who are going to lose out the most.
what will some one do with 50mbps or even a 1 mbit connection, check mail !!
Peter Mandelson has only started this because of a free holiday (and other things) he got from David Geffen, the billionaire producer who co-founded the DreamWorks studio with Steven Spielberg.
so now that’s ISPs, the FAC and the general public against these proposals and the Government and the FACT cats for it. as much as i hope for the best it doesn’t look good for now and it’ll get even worse when the f**king Tories get in.
Lobbywhore
That’s what people like Mandelson are being called.
could someone explain to me the economics of this? how can spending approx £400 million to save £200 million make any sense? why should one industry lose money in order to save another industry from losing money, when that industry is doing very little to protect itself in the first place? to me it proves that this issue is NOT about money, it is about control. no government is in control of the internet. that is what they dont like and this is the perfect way of trying to gain that control. the trouble is, once the movie/music industry has got what they want and the various governments realise they are still not in control, it will be too late. losing ‘free’ internet is going to be a disaster for everyone! agree that TalkTalk are far from the best of ISPs, but hope they carry out what i see, atm, as just a threat. as for Mandelson, he even scuppered the postal strike talks. not bad for an ‘industry secretary’. what a wanker!
It’s notable that they’re still thinking of copyright in a pre-internet era. Back then, repeated offenses meant you had some sort of publishing enterprise and where actually taking business out of somebody’s hands. Now, multiple offenses is way more common than a single offense. How many people in a given country are part of the content industries? 0.05%? What’s good for them probably isn’t good for everybody.
Oh, and btw, even if it is about the money (which it most certainly is), I think TalkTalk has the right to stand against the added work and expense.
The business secretary is insisting that there will be an independent appeals process.This will be run by private companys paid for by the government with a nice little bonus for every appeal denied.These people are an insult to even kangaroo courts.
everyone will be VPN’d at this rate! have fun then mandy
They want to cut Piracy by 70% in 2 years? How about cutting carbon emissions by 70% in 20 years?!
Priorities, people…
I really wish these so-called “honourable” gentlemen would spend half as much time and effort concentrating on the real problems facing the UK.
Our streets aren’t safe to walk, 3 million people are out of work, thousands have their homes repossessed every week, politicians steal money from the taxpayer…..but at least people won’t be getting free music anymore. Hurrah.
Thanks Peter. Thanks a lot.
3 strikes your out assholes huh ?? well if anyone from the bigwig media industry reads this you fuckers are out of my house !!!!
it will be years before i ever buy anything new off any of you leeches and that is if i ever do go back to buying a new product.i now buy all my movies used and i buy no music from any bigwig labels/bands
The ISP’s aren’t the only ones who will have to bear the brunt of financial burden. Every single company in business today sees at least some of their profit come from people making online purchases, either for services or physical product. Are those businesses expected to see their bottom line affected simply to protect the ones of those who are unwilling to adapt? What about our children’s ability to do research for school projects, communicate with loved ones, or my ability to pay the monthly bills? Cutting people off from something they’ve become so heavily reliant on without due process is completely insane.
#20. ‘Cutting people off from something they’ve become so heavily reliant on’ full stop ‘is completely insane’. forget about the ‘due process’. not only is this going to be more financially disastrous for a lot of companies except the ‘industries’, surely it will be sounding the deathnell of a lot of governments, political parties and politicians as well? who is going to vote to elect a government that has blatant disregard for basic human rights and privacy but favours anything one particular industry wants? not me!
The day a isp has to disconnect anyone they know it will lose thousand’s of customers.
Disconnecting me & my family will cost the economy much more,No isp needed,No online shopping,No online gambling ect,
Mandy is well out his depth here,What he does not realise is that we will never pay the corp’s inflated prices for their tat,But what we will pay for is our anonymity which will not benefit the u k in anyway what so ever.
This is about money/power & control.The control of infomation that you & me have access to.
“who is going to vote to elect a government that has blatant disregard for basic human rights and privacy but favours anything one particular industry wants?”
french ppl…
“Are we to have a dual system where Internet users can be both disconnected by the government and financially punished by private companies for the same offenses?”
that will happen in france, hadopi… :|
Some song, different day. Mandy is a young ambitious and somewhat naive politician. He expects to lower stuff by 70% in 2 years? He clearly has no idea what he’s dealing with, when it comes to the internet. And if this wasn’t even possible with the full force of the U.S media moguls, watch chance does Mandy have.
I feel this wll be like previous efforts. It will take one or two bad cases of grandparents or kids getting billed for something they haven’t done to kill it. Add the weight of Talk Talk, formerly Pipex, who are just expanding their business and things are going to get hairy. Lets hope Talk Talk do challenge them in court, because I don’t see Virgin Media or BT saying the same, which is rather worrying since they are larger ISPs.
Guess this is where governments and politicians don’t get it. They can legislate until the cows come home, as such laws mean little if you don’t agree with or didn’t vote for them, let alone understand what they entail beneath. The net isn’t going away and no one can control it. Beside that, net savvy people are what make getting content online methods to evolve.
Yesterday it was Napster and Kazaa, it’s currently still bit torrent, and for tomorrow something new and sweeter rise up to replace them. By 2011/12, things will be no different and Mandy will look like a fool, just like others before him.
“While delaying a final decision until the next parliament”
The crook Mandelson won’t be around then !
The only reason the mafiaa want these policies is so that there is a decision against sharers… As such it would be remarkably easy to win a civil case against the same people
The mere fact that the cost yo
implement the scheme is larger than the losses it will allegedly prevent is absolutely bonkers.
A human rights challenge would doubtless be successful, although it seems every judge either has no clue about filesharing or worse still is a member of an antipiracy group.
For whatever underlying reason,I still say F’in well done Talk Talk!!..I am one of your customers and its well beyond time you stood up to that moron Mandy and his Hollywood bum chums…Now..Just in case..Can anyone reccommend a good reliable VPN service?
Mandelson is one of these lizard-worshipping pederasts that like to defile goats for fun.
Hope he & his ilk all get squirted out of reality like a squeezed melon seed sometime soon…
I’m can’t possibly express how nice it is to live here in America (a free country) where none of this bullshit is taking place… sooo nice!
@Stinkypinky
Not happening in America???
What the fvck do you think will be in the secret ACTA agreement?
It’s OBVIOUS what is going on here. Work it out!
The RIAA/MPAA want to disconnect people from the internet to CUT THEM OFF FROM MOVIES MUSIC etc. etc.
Then you will have only your CD player, TV and DVD player… in other words, you will be RESTRICTED to BUYING their content.
The internet is a COMPETITOR to there business.
THIS IS THE REAL REASON FOR WANTING TO DISCONNECTING PEOPLE FROM THE INTERNET.
Do not let this happen.
ROFL @ stinkypinky. Finger up his ass scratching his brain.
Is the govnmt effectively making a civil offence of NOT securing a wifi connection? At the moment NO offence criminal or civil exists for leaving a connection OPEN. What would be the position of a FONERO in UK and EU now? No wonder BT upset and good for them & Talk Talk to stand up for our civil liberties. What we should do is encourage everyone to enrol to the FONERO scheme-a physical protest that would render 3 strikes unenforceable!
Let me open by saying that I am 100% against disconnection and copyright laws as is are complete BS. They were designed to prevent people from copying the work and to promote creativity of others. They were NOT designed to prevent distribution of a work!!!
But we as a group need to realize one VERY important thing. Copyright violation, in its current state, IS still illegal! And as a mindless mob we will get nothing of what we want. Being an organized populous making it CLEAR that we want reform will get our needs.
Its clear as day, politicians want money. They are siding with anti-piracy because it gets them what they want. But if the people they represent (hey! that’s us!) deny them their jobs by voting elsewhere then they don’t get any money at all!
Write a letter (not an email), make a phone call, stop by in person and speak with your local representative and state clearly that you will not stand for violations of your human rights. Should your representative try to violate these rights they lose your vote; simple as that.
Sure they won’t think anything of it when one person tells them this. But when everyone stands up and states what they want they’ll listen. They are smart enough to know that no job = no pay.
Sitting on these anonymous online forums and spewing bloody murder doesn’t get us noticed! STAND UP DAMN YOU! I ALREADY HAVE!
The UK’s second largest ISP believes that an internet connection is a human “right.”Well OF COURSE they do, It’s what they have to sell. The apparel vendor would just LOVE to see a right to “high quality clothing” written into the constitution, too. lol
I say it’s more like a revocable privilege depending on how you use it, like private property, gun ownership or a driver’s license.
But either way, using technology to strip rights from digital artists is not a proper way forward. And an artists right to fair compensation (if you take and use their product) will always trump a privilege to use technology to try to circumvent that compensation.
i’m with talktalk. yeah they throttle the fuck out torrents, but not if you use a VPN :P nice to see they’re sticking up for their userbase rather than totally alienating them like virgin media
Reduce piracy by 70%… maybe in relation to Somalia… but here on the internets… not a f**kin’ chance.
Ahh let em pass the law, just hack into some networks, download a bunch of crap and let the chaos begin.. In the end we will still share and we will the same idiots who put this law into action as shields for our own protection.
Honestly I think itl work out great.
Desperately trying to make a failing business model work, good job!
Everyone sign the petition and join the website lets fight for our rights!!!!!
I just think its amazing that everyone’s held responsible for the ‘music’ industry losses.
The Isp’s, the public, Website hosting providers and the people who own the sites. And its funny how human rights have to suffer because of these minor ‘losses’
It seems to me that the net used to belong to no one and slowly its belonging to the Entertainment industry who haven earned it.
Democracy doesn’t seem to work if you ask me : (
All the folks here shouting about, to hell with them we’ll just go vpn. What happens when the vpn provider gets taken to court to release details of its customer? There aren’t many countries left who will not cave in to these demands and the countries that are left couldn’t supply enough bandwidth for everyone. So what I’m saying is vpn is not the answer. The answer is for the public to show THEIR government that we want filesharing for non-commercial purposes to be legal. That will force the cartels to come up with their own solution for us to get free media from the net. The cartels are always banging on about how much torrents sites are/ can make in revenue, so let them start their own sites and trackers and make gazzilions from it. Running and hiding is not the answer. Peeps say “the darknets are coming” people dont push sharing underground, instead push for it to be legalised. The more peeps that think its a human right to share because its fair the better.
@stinkypinky – Dude you are so fukin funny, You fuckers in America can’t even pass a healthcare bill because you are that scared of “communism” or “socialism” or “government control” so what chance do the MAFIAA stand. Besides you have already signed away half your freedom in order to protect your “homeland security” and you ignorant twats didn’t even see it fucking coming.
And for Mandelsons plan who gives a fuck, the asshole and in government won’t survive the next election to get it implemented anyway.
I hereby make the solemn pledge that if I ever got caught pirating something (not likely, but who knows), I will NEVER buy ANYTHING from the company who threatens me or gets my internet cut off EVER AGAIN.
I probably won’t be the only one. You think this nonsense is going to give you your obsolete business back, retarded BPI??? No. Bloody. Way.
And I, for one, welcome our fascist, expenses claiming overlords … wait, no I don’t.
“I will NEVER buy ANYTHING from the company who threatens me or gets my internet cut off EVER AGAIN”
I was thinking that myself, your not alone…
Quite glad i’m with AOL right now, at least my ISP seems to be standing up for my rights.
Now everyone, put your wireless modem/router back to its factory default (no security). Act dumb “I just bought it, plugged it in and used it”. “what is WEP, what is WPA?” and then you can say “can you prove it was me downloading those files – must have been someone using my wi-fi”.
Well done TalkTalk – I shall be changing ISP to them soon.
“But either way, using technology to strip rights from digital artists is not a proper way forward. And an artists right to fair compensation (if you take and use their product) will always trump a privilege to use technology to try to circumvent that compensation.”
Very true RM. Most people seem to think they have an absolute right to steal property and if you dare challenge them you are stupid.
No way should people be fined on an IP number alone. But thats not an excuse to steal.
No one should be able to stop you legally sharing material you have a right to posess i.e creative commons licence etc.
But how people think it is right to share stolen material I have yet to see a cogent argument. They just say you are stupid…shows how facile their argument is.
They accuse RIAA of being bullies, then act llike bullies…yes now that’s real intelligence.
I presume Headbang, by your logic, if the police accused you nof shopliftimg, you never call the police if you assaulted, burgled or take someone to court if you paid for soem goods and never reeived delivery. How dare they accuse you of stealing or attempt to fine you, just for sharing stolen propert, the cheek of it
to #34. try reading this page.
http://mashable.com/2008/04/11/guy-bono-net-access-eu/
perhaps you will find some useful information on whether ‘an internet connection is considered a human right’.
Reading these news makes me wonder:
1. Why are those people running the country? … just why
2. When will they (industry) reach the breaking point of people by pushing the limit with these kind of … (well i do not even have a word for that term, retarded and idiotic seems too soft here) laws and make the people react to them violently in real life instead of keeping it in the forums and blogs.
Like everyone have said:
This will not work.
Sharing has been and will be here, no matter what form
We need legal alternatives, internet is here and will be here. Change or be crushed
Good to hear that some ISP-s have balls to make a stand.
To industry:
I will NEVER buy any game/movie/album
I will NEVER stop sharing files.
Envolve or die, simple as that
why don’t we have or own internet, i mean a network without gov getting involved :)
enjoy striking out eurotrash
No need to panic just use retroshare or stealthnet and you are gold LoL
Also you all can use:
GNUnet, omemo, bitblinder and others.
just pick one and be happy.
They all work well enough. Just be warned that the price for privacy is speed.
The French are already using it see here
A more complete list can be found here of other options.
In the end all those laws are for nothing LoL
If filesharing is recast as legal to take product without paying, we should expect an assault on all prices pushing all gods to be freely available and underwritten by crushing taxes. There IS NO FREE lunch, folks.
But if it remains illegal and moves to VPN, encryption, sneakernet, expect tightly licensed encryption and private network, and piracy will become “reasonable cause” for stop and search portable harddrives at will.
NOW we see what you do with your privacy, hm? After 10 years of theft, sounds fair to me.
@50 Oct 29, 2009 at 20:19 by Phoenix:
We already have. Bittorrent and other protocols are layers on top of the physical infra-structure already available. All we have to do now is encrypt and use anonymous networks.
That will be the end of the discussion about piracy on the interwebz LoL
What they can’t see, they can’t act upon.
@46
I partially agree with you. No one here has come up with a reasonable argument about why stealing is ok, but anti-piracy people cannot come up with a good reason why the industry refuses to adapt to a changing culture.
I pirate because I can. I know its wrong deep down but my actions are minimal to that of the corporation’s greed. Before I pirated (and a year+ duration when I stopped) I purchased about one DVD every six months. This was usually for a sibling’s birthday, a Christmas stocking stuffer or some other event.
They CONTINUE to believe that every movie should be sold to EVERY individual at a totally outrageous price. My choice to download is not a lost sale for them.
They have lost more money and most likely laid off more employees for money lost to A) refusing to adapt and B) lobbying and buy-outs to combat a cultural change.
-Capn
PS. I definitely respect your way of debating. There’s too much flaming on this site. As you said yourself, too many people think bullying is a proper response to bullying.
@55 Oct 29, 2009 at 20:57 by Reasoned Mind:
Wake up. It already is that way.
LoL
And you are wrong there is free lunch. Politicians and the entertainment industry have had it since forever LoL
TalkTalk just does it for the money.
Having pirate support is an extra.
@55 Oct 29, 2009 at 20:57 by Reasoned Mind:
Funny LoL
Did you see the movie Food Inc. were the guy explain how the U.S. produce food bellow the real cost?
How, once free seeds are no more in that country?
People in the U.S. pay twice for the same food and companies keep the money, the free tax payers that they use to buy their lunch LoL
We can all vote people. Vote not buying music or movies any more. Don’t go to the theather. Use alternatives and force them to give us the free lunch. What would this people do then? cry?
I wouldn’t buy anything from them now and I am not going to in the future.
If filesharing is recast as legal nothing will happen or the music industry would have already flopped a long time ago. It been more then 10 years now and people still support their favorite artists. Nothing changed that much.
Did you know that in the U.S. is against the law to trash talk about the food industry?
When did they pass those laws?
Dying economies love intellectual property although it will kill them in the end they still love it. Intellectual property behaves exactly like cancer and have the same consequences for their host LoL
P2P WiLL NeVeR DiE… and if it does.. we will find another way!
http://mashable.com/2008/09/26/eu-three-strikes/
GL & HF! PiraTeZ
Filesharing or piracy doesn’t negate market to anyone it just forbids other from making money from it.
In a sense intellectual property is a selfish scheme that don’t improve anything, it hold back evolution, creates a disproportional market that is unsustainable and will fall eventually.
The UK’s second largest ISP believes that an internet connection is a human “right.”
Not the connection, the way they are trying to disconnect the users without a fair trial.
RM, you keep blabbing nonsense as a parrot. Obviously there are people in the p2p community that don’t give a sh*t about the artists or the structure behind a movie/song/etc. However, it’s not because of those people that the majority should be labeled.
It has been said, stated, researched a whole lot of times that what the consumers want is sane prices, availability and sensible use of the copyrights. The industry and people like you that fail to see ahead are responsible for their own failures. The door is there, wide open, you just have to go through it and start profiting with a new model.
Why the fear to change? Why the resistance?
By the way, Google just launched a nice music search tool. Awesome! Thumbs up for the initiative! Hope the results include sites to buy in my country.
VPN – do i need to say more!
LOL bring in the bottom feeding attorneys LOL
@48 TorrentzBeak
Here is your cogent argument…
Your premise is biased. I will agree that it is not right to share stolen material. However, I do not agree that your description accurately portrays the central issues of this debate.
It is appreciated that you at least said “share” instead of “fence” but copyright infringement does not fit the legal or common definition of “stealing.” If I buy a DVD and give a copy to you, I’m not sharing anything stolen. Now, reframe your premise using common language that doesn’t immediately bias the debate in your favor. Is it right to make a copy of a work so that you now have two copies? In some cases, yes. That’s called fair use. Is it right to give a copy of a work to somebody who has not paid for it? In some cases, yes. That’s called lending. It happens everyday in libraries around the world.
Is it legal to make a copy, give one away and keep one for yourself? No, it’s not legal. Is it right? In some cases many people would say, yes it’s right. For example, you record a TV show and I record the same show. Your copy is accidently destroyed. I give you a copy of mine. Take a survey and you’d find most people consider that alright even though it is illegal. This is a clear example where the law begins to misalign with public opinion. There are lots of examples. How come CD rentals are illegal but DVD rentals are OK? How come you can rip a CD for a iPod but can’t rip a DVD for a Video iPod? Why are out-of-print works still protected by copyright? Why is Tivo OK and Slingbox is OK but a Tivo/Slingbox combination is illegal? Why does Hulu only work in the USA? Why does Zune allow sharing photos but not music when both are equally copyrightable? Why is TPB contributory infringement but Smith and Wesson isn’t contributory murder? Sure, there is a story and rationale behind each of these questions but to the average man on the street the laws and enforcement appear illogical and arbitrary.
Now try offering some cogent arguments entering the debate from the opposing side. Are the term lengths for copyright appropriate? Do copyright laws best serve the advancement of art and science? Should anti-circumvention trump fair use? Should hiding the secrets of CSS trump the free-speech right to publish or even link to DeCSS algorithms? Why are ISPs responsible for enforcing copyright law? Where is the line on contributory infringement and how do you decide when a service or technology has crossed it?
I want to know what Darth Mandelson is getting out of pushing this trough. it obviously came about after his visit to the Rothschild villa.
Im also curious what their strategy is going to be when this has failed to have the desired affect of 70% reduction in 2 years.
its only going to push piracy more underground by means of encryption.
Anyone else smell a white list internet coming along?
I wouldn’t mind it too much if they could actually prove they are loosing money due to piracy.
what the……………………….
@70
I just wanted to say…well done, simply splendid. That is one of the most well thought out, worded, and reasonable posts I’ve ever seen in the comments section.
The reasonable play here would be for other ISPs to chip in.
Sooner or later they have to come to terms with where they stand legally anyway. Probably will be cheaper for them anyways if those terms like came yesterday already.
@70
“How come you can rip a CD for a iPod but can’t rip a DVD for a Video iPod?”
True. I noticed that recently a few DVDs/Blu-rays are being sold with a digital copy you are allowed, i.e., it is legal to rip to a portable video device, e.g. iPod. I admit, I haven’t bought one yet, but I have heard that the quality is down right shit and you are allowed do it once only. Does this mean that it is o.k. to rip all movies to my iPod, or only the ones that come with Digital Copy.
This does raise a serious problem. I use Imtoo DVD Ripper, a program that you have to pay for (I cracked mine). It provides a high quality DVD ripping service, but such an act is illegal. Yet, the legal alternative is of a fair lower quality. So why should people choose the legal method, when the illegal method offers better quality, better features (you can encode subtitles) and more copies.
Wf yes nice post – one without all the you are morons you are stupid etc etc.
At one time, the powers that be, when VCRs first came out, decared that “timeshifting” a program was illegal. This is TV program put out on terrestial TV, free-to-air, either paid for by advertising or a licence fee in the UK (pre Sky days)This meant, technically, that you could only uise a VCR to watch pre-recorded tapes(!)or record you own stuff.(From a camcorder. Eventually the law was changed by Parliament in the UK so that you could “timeshift” a program, i.e, record it to watch it later, but (again) technically once watched, you are (legally) supposed to delete it, as “archiving” a program is breaking copyright as all programs have that (c) symbol and a date on them and a (c)opyright owner.
I’m sure that now in the days of the internet and DVD recorders that all seems a bit twee.
Even playing a record (CD) these days to a public audience requires a licence, hence our very small haidresser salon requires a PBS certificate to play CDs, otherwise they are breaking the law by playing music to an audience! All very archaic to todays everytnings free on the net. Take Spotify, a much lauded music service, free to anyone with a pC, buit they(Spotify) are still paying a fee to play that music.
“Home taping is killing Music” No it didn’t because you had a poor copy that detoriated over time. OK to listen to try but if you liked it you bought a real record (or CD)
Much like the argument some people usse on here. The big difference is though, the internet has brought mass copying and sharing(stealing) with perfect copies, no degradation, no hiss, no dropout.
I agree that the best way to counteract this is to offer reasonably priced methodologies to acquire content via the internet, without all the nonsense like DVD extras, prety leaflets and sleeves nobody ever looks at or watches.
I have stacks of legally acquired DVDs that have useless extra DVDs with claptrap such as Directors commentarys(!) Hilarious deleted scenes(!) that I have never watched.
Prett sleves and usless info I never look at. Like at lot of people I just want to watch the film, play the game use the software, listen to the music.
Radiohead had the right idea. You can dload it, no fancy sleeve, no jewel case putting more plastic into the environment, name your price (I paid £2 instead of about £8) the money went to Radiohead, instead of some corporate at EMI. Radiohead facilitated the way I’d like to buy media or content.
The problem that many people on this board cannot understand though is this:-
Radiohead are relatively rich haviing ahd a successful 14year carrer. They could aford to takle the risk. It probably worked and they got paid, probably more than they would have got if they’d have stayed with EMI, and fans got the music at a lower price.
But I still obtained it legally. I didn’t borrow it, share it, or steal it, whichever term you wish to use.
Nay CDs I buy, say Muse’s latest. AM I allowed to copy it so I can have the original in the CD player, a copy on my hard drive, and a burnt copy in the car. If one is only on one media at a time that is OK, but if my son wants to play the copy on the hard drive, my wife wants to listen in the car, and I listen o0n the CD player, I should have 3 copies. As I don’t own the music, (Muse’s publisher owns it) I only have a licence to play a copy on my CD player.
But at least I have still bought 1 copy in the first place.
However in the “pirate” world” only 1 person needs to buy a copy of Muse’s latest CD.
If they then uplaod it to TPB and all 25m unique peers dload it (unlikely, I know, but possible) Muse aint going to make any money are they. They’ve had to pay for Studio time, technicians, euipment etc etc, they aint gonna keep doing that are they?
Pirate will make the argument that enough people will still buy it so it’s OK for me to have a copy without paying for it as all the other stupid people i.e over 40 will still but it from Play, Amazon HMV etc etc. But as the genie is now out of the bottle and as the ” internet generation ” grow up and get replaced by internet savvy kids, the people wiling to buy physical media/dloads etc etc will decrease and die out. The opinion on here mainly seems to be I want it for free, you cant put a fee on 1s and zeros, I want it, it may be against the law but that law is stupi and anyone who disagrees, is alos stupid. Now I have n o time for Mandelson, he is a snake, and has been thrown out of Parliament three times, but the Conservatives in the UK are even more brown nosed with Big Business, and believe me, you haven’t seen anything yet.
But that isn’t an argument for I’m standing up for my rights I want it free.
I use flickr. My photos are there on a creative commons licence, people can use them. But If I was really god, I would want payiong for my time and efforet, my investment, if someon wants to use my hard work, they should damn well pay for it. If it commands £500 pounds or £10,000. I presume most people on this site, if they are old enough, and aren’t Kiddee Pirates ankle biters, earn money or may do so in the future. I presume they think they work hard and think they should get a fair days pay for a fair days work. Imagine working for BP say, as a geolist, discovering an oilfiels after 6 months hard work and BP sya well done for finding that oilfiels after 6 months hard work using your skills in some godforsaken jungle in Sth America. now piss off you are sacked , oh and by the way we want it for fre, beacuse we can, how can you claim any money, it’s just atoms right? Any one could have found it, if they l;ooked in the right place? Sod you, we don’t agree with paying you for hard work, we are giving oil away for free. What’s the incentive to get another job?
TiVo failed in the UK…
I with TalkTalk & they admit on their user fora, that they throttle.
When I dload Radiohead free single legally via toorents, it was obvious they throttle as I only got to about 20kb/s. Yet when I dload Steam games (legally, via Steam) I get 800kb/s.
Using a VPN to dload Radioheads give aways(legally) I got 150kb/s so Talk Talk are throttling to protect the “user experience”
In no way should ISPs police the internet, and why should people lose the use of the internet entirely.
But make no mistake, mass stealing via “sharing” will not be tolerated and ISPs will never support that, it is illegal, afterall.
One way or another mass piracy will be and needs to be stopped, otherwise they will be no music or films to leech without contributing.
Music will all be live, god knows what’ll happen to films , but if it’s not vastly reduced, there will be very little TO pirate. PC games will go, as no-=one will produce for them, it’ll be all consoles. NO Music, no PC games, no DVDs, life will be poorer, all beacuase pwople believe they have a right to “something for nothing”
The onlke ones who can put a semi-cogent argument for illegal torrents are the ones taht argue that Hollywood et al need to change their distrubtion mode, that is unquestionably right. I’m sick of all the “added extras” and fluff that come ithe CDs and DVDs, rootkits DRM etc etc.
But I stillk fail to see how that gives peoiple the right top own “something for nothing” and not contribute to the artists whose talent should be rewarded.
Yes Posh spice is paid an obscene amount of money as is her husband Beckham. So is Matt Damon, Jonny Depp and Neo, how many millions do you need? Yes (in my opinion) Lily Allen’s music is crap. But how does that give people the right(?) to have a copy withouit paying for a copy? Just beacuse they can?
I’d like to see both sides of the story instead of biased crap. Please?.
RMind – yes but this is only a board where if you agree
sharing copyrighted material is both right and true, and is not stealing peoples right to be paid for thier work, you can post.
Dare to disagree and you are a stupid mororn. or stupid and a moron.
And so is anyone who dare to legislate or have an alternative view to all is free.
Actually a couple of British people have been captured by Somali Pitaes
Presumable these Pirates also think they have a right to “goods” peoples property and rights for nothing?
I’d like to see some of the people who argue something for nothing or free warez is good sail out there and not raise a fuss when their goods are captured for nothing. I’d bet they’d want the law to come rushing to their aid then?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6896168.ece
Reasoned mind does make some valid points. The internet has never once been a right it is a privilege and again hes correct in saying that if you don’t use it correctly then you should have it taken away. However even in cases of gun ownership or drivers licenses to remove those from people they have to go to court. If I went to a cop and said hey reasoned mind was speeding take his license away you would pitch a fit because that would be totally unfair. So disconnecting people from the internet without proper proof that they actually did something is just plain stupid. But it is also true that with more and more people choosing to download music and movies and not go to buy these things then the copyright owners are going to go for more stronger and harsher punishments. Most of the people that complain about the mpaa/riaa are saying I wont buy anything to do with them. Fine thats your choice and obviously one shared by the masses. So lets say that they did move forward into the 21st century and started to offer much more DRM free content online, you still wouldn’t buy it all of your views on these companies prove that so what would be the point?
@76 Oct 30, 2009 at 02:01 by TorrentzBeak
You are assuming 100% of the people who download won’t buy. That’s a lie – I’m proof it’s a lie. I’ll scan my original God of War II I just bought and the copy I got from TPB and post somewhere if needed.
I can also do that with my Nightwish folder. I bought 3 CDs from them already. None of them were ever played (I listen to the mp3 I downloaded) and all of them were just bought BECAUSE I downloaded (I might have never got in touch with the group if ti wasn’t for a friend pointing me a torrent to get the songs).
That said, explain me how piracy means no sales. Please. And don’t go telling I’m the minority. Most of my friends do that too.
I’m waiting for sane prices and a decent source to buy various songs online. And maybe movies too. And softwares too.
Remember, there’s almost no cost in replicating digital media. The environment won’t suffer if you lower your prices by 50% and sell 10 times more.
Money is the only things these companies understand, good for TalkTalk to hitting them where it hurts. There FAT oversized budgets. Hmm maybe the drop in income per movie is because movies SUCK now a days.
When was the last awesome good movie, like Terminator 1, or Star Wars 3-6, or Goonies, or even Matrix. Movies now just suck which make people resort to NOT GOING TO THE MOVIE’s.
“The internet has never once been a right it is a privilege and again hes correct in saying that if you don’t use it correctly then you should have it taken away.”
Just shut the fuck up already. I’m sick of you arrogant wannabe intellectual philosophers telling us what is a right and what is a privilege. You can shove your debates up your ass. The internet is anarchy and it’s the only true freedom we have left in this world. If you want to be a cocksucker for the New World Order goons then take your own internet away because it’s a ‘privilege’ and leave the rest of us in peace. I pay almost $100 for the ‘privilege’ to connect to the WWW. IT’S NOT FUCKING FREE YOU.
@blah-no the internet is not a privilage,we live in a capitalistic world which says if i can afford to pay then i can have it,simple.fuck off with your privilage shite asshole.
@reasoned behind-you wouldn’t know a fact if i forcefully inserted it in your butthole dip shit.
The only cure for these traitors of the people is a lead lobotomy!!!
Oh! the old “we can’t compete with free” fallacy LoL
If artists don’t get money from filesharing they sure are getting from somewhere. Music have many revenue streams and some are bitching about one or two that are dying.
People didn’t have to pay before and they paid anyways. What, you don’t believe me? so explain what is free radio and TV and exactly how much people who watch free TV or listen to free radio paid in all these pass decades?
Wake up morons. It was always free. Double decks was created for what? those connections behind every VCR to connect 2 of them was for playing?
Oh, right but this time is a perfect copy. BS, download any video file and it is not a DVD quality is more like video tapes. MP3 are not high quality so sod off.
Besides you guys keep using the word stealing when it is not.
The world will end if we can’t force others to buy things LoL
Yes that is why open source companies are making millions without any protection.
That is why although piracy is rampant the 10% top artists that make money today are making more money then they have at the beginning of the decade. Because nobody is paying nothing…right! I see now.
So there would be no music, no films and no games or software?
Explain, how is that miro have thousands of free video channels?
Explain how open source software is so bad that the U.S. army is saying to their officers to use it more.
Explain why is that even with free music on the internet and around the house of millions people still manage to go buy crap from artists?
Why people go to theaters?
Why people buy apparel?
Why people buy action figures?
Why the f*** people are still paying for things?
You moronic copyright enthusiasts are called morons for a reason.
If Downloads were really killing the music industry, how come the number of music sales in the UK keeps rising year on year?
Why is the Cheryl Cole single currently #2 in the Worldwide Sales Chart when it only charted in the UK?
http://www.mediatraffic.de/tracks-week44-2009.htm
Despite the illegal download option, the fact remains that 243,000 people bizarrely still chose to pay good money to purchase this crap song while we’re in a recession. How can the music industry possibly be in danger with sales like that?
And regarding Radiohead, I’m proof that people are still prepared to pay for quality when a free copy is available. I’m a huge fan of the band and actually purchased the £50 box set.
When they give you a fair deal, make sure you all take it!
If they offer a ‘pay what you want’ sale – don’t download it for free or we’ll never get anywhere.
They’ll be like, well, that didn’t work.
That £200M loss figure thrown around is based on the now infamous and fundamentally flawed formula: 1 download = 1 lost sale. However the cost to ISP’s and consequently their customers will be genuine and significant. All this to satisfy record company fatcats and the unelected knave, Peter “the corrupt” Mandelson.
Decreasing piracy by 70%, he’s joking right?
I’m not sure why the government is trying to push something through that is so unpopular, the chance’s of them winning the next election are minimal already.
Not that it matter’s all that much, there are more of us than there are of them and we will always be a step ahead.
79: People being captured by Pirates is a compeltely different issue, at it’s most simple it’s the difference between stealing an original work of art and stealing a print.
There is only oneo ringinal but thousands of prints, you are taking something that can be easily replaced.
When talking about Piracy and file atsharing it’s not even that drastic, you are litterally creating a copy of something while leaving the original where it is.
Your comparison is FAIL!
(Oh and by the way, Pirates also tend to, well, you know, KILL PEOPLE!)
@TorrentzBeak
You seem to be mistaken that artists have to pay for studio time, etc…
The record company pays for these things; the deal being that they will pay for this, the artist makes an album for them to distribute in return.
If anything the artist makes very very little (if anything) from recording an album, the record label offers to make them popular in return for signing away their artistic offering to them.
The best the artist can hope for is that from the sale of that album people like and become fans, those people then purchase merchandise and go to concerts, this is where the artist makes money.
The record label wants to control the distribution of this album, but for an artist it isn’t required who distributes it only that it is distributed so that their talents can be heard.
Amendment 138/46 to the EU Telecoms Package.
Nuff said.
http://www.laquadrature.net/en/amendment-138-46-adopted-again
Let me be absolutely clear. The day somebody disconnects me from the internet, will be the day when I become a homicidal maniac.
I’m glad this does not happen where I live, but we should stop it before it spreads further.
Its 2009: You don’t need a huge old analog recording studio anymore. Or a huge giant marketing agency.
People are producing albums with laptops (protools) and/or home studios (Thom Yorke and the Pet Shop Boys spring immediately to mind.)
Every reasonable artist has a website where you can buy their stuff directly be it mp3’s or merchandise, effectively cutting out ‘the big labels’.
The old gods are dead. Unfortunately their priests are taking too long to die.
lmfao @ mandy who has just banged another nail in labours coffin ..reduce piracy by 70% in 2 years..rofl ,it wont happen, but on + side for his cronies he just got lilly allens vote
Why is Mandelson even still in Parliament? Hasn’t he disgraced himself enough?
Also, I thought the EU had something to say about Frances idea to do this. Really, do politicians not read the news?
You have to be a US citizen to register a .US domain name, do they have the legal rights to have this domain name?!
Also, it’s a silly rule that I haven’t seen enforced in my experience, but .US domains are supposed to be hosted within American territories.
tut tut Talk Talk.
Like many issues, this debate is not black/white. It’s a continuum and I’m probably leaning the same direction as most TF patrons. However, there are many people on the extreme end that try to argue points that simply do not have broad support.
“Greedy MAFIAA must adapt their archaic business model or die.” While this might be good advice, I wouldn’t try to use industry greed or poor models as justification for any illegal action.
“All information should be free.” It’s a utopian thought but I’m too much of a capitalist to go that far.
“Sharing spurs legitimate sales.” Sure, in some cases that’s true but it’s certainly difficult to quantify and the easy counterclaim is that the added sales don’t offset the losses.
“I wouldn’t buy it anyway.” Again, it might be true in many cases but like the previous argument, it’s hard to quantify and simply defies common sense.
To be taken seriously and actually gain ground, focus on where overreaching laws defy sensibility, where penalties are disproportionate to offenses and where enforcement creates unacceptable collateral damage to civil liberties. There are plenty of these examples and it’s easy to garner widespread support. For example, argue that USA copyright terms are too long. Recall that the standard term used to be 14 years. Stop a minute and imagine how great P2P technology would be if all software, music and videos prior to 1995 was legally free!
Today the maximum term can easily reach 150 years. Furthermore, the maximum has always been retroactively extended every time Mickey Mouse (1928) is about to go free. Copyright protection has become effectively eternal. Nothing “falls” into public domain unless it is placed there. Not only does this policy stiffle legitimate use cases for P2P networks, it seriously deters the advancement of art and science in general.
Few things to note here.
First, spending over £300m on something only losing £200m (if that’s even accurate) is stupid.
Second, it won’t work. VPNs, proxies, Furk.net… Plus, I can even download music videos off of YouTube from my fucking mobile phone. That’s virtually untraceable and the music on YT is usually licensed too. Plus, as a lot is uploaded by the record companies themselves, it’s high quality.
Third, decrease piracy by 70% in two years? They might as well say they’ll make pigs fly in two years, it’s more likely to happen.
Fourth, this will apparently happen in 2011, and there will be an election in 2010 which our current government is unlikely to win.
Fifth… Good on Talk Talk for standing up to this bullshit!
rm and torentz beak please can i have some money from the big four like you you anti piracy groups are amusing me. my little violin is out .you are wasting your time we are not listening careing is sharing. sharing my car and petrol is not an argument a copy of the original is not stealing. copy my car and copy my petrol. i keep the original go for it lol stick that up ya jumper
I’m glade the decision will not be made until the next parliament.
Because an Election is coming up and if every one picks a party that will not pass this legislation, we will not have to worry about it.
Even non file shares should care as they will end up footing the bill as well, in there internet subscription costs.
I don’t know why he cares, All we know is that labour are fistfucked at the next elections
1. Tax people who don’t use the internet to pay for improvements to internet infrastructure.
2. Disconnect people who use the internet from the internet.
3. ?????
4. Get re-elected.
Well done labour. You can’t FAIL.
Problem is folks, ending piracy wont end the MAFIAA. They will find more and more things to control on the internet. They want it for themselves. They HATE youTUBE simply because it endangers their existance. How many people sit and watch youTUBE for hours. You dont even need to turn on the TV or listen to music,you can spend countless hours onyouTUBE and not even think about TV. And you can do it without infringing on MAFIAA garbage. Its just like the ACTORS guild throwing a fit over REALITY TV shows. SOon enough MAFIAA will be on 24hour watch over utube and ANYTHING resembling ANYTHING will be punished. Its a never ending battle for supremecy for the MAFIAA.They have lost already many many people going out to movies or watching TV, just from playing around on UTUBE. The internet itself draws a bigger crowd than any motion picture could draw.So they want to own it, and they will.
@Raptaur
Not really true I’m afraid. A new artist signed to a major label usually signs a contract giving them 12-15% royalties, the record company take around 85%. Yes the record company pay for studio time, promotion, the video shoot, fly the artist around the world etc. However, the record company then CHARGE the artist for all of this. That’s right, the artist ends up paying for all of the record company’s work from their meagre 12-15%. Google Toni Braxton and see what happened to her, she ended up having to declare herself bankrupt for this very reason to protect herself from her record label, who made millions of her album sales. She is not the first and won’t be the last. Some artists are more savvy to this, and they set up their own production company. In that way they sign a flat rate deal for a set amount (Robbie Williams did this with his £80 million deal). The record label rely on the artist producing so many albums, that sell well to recoup the money they pay and make a profit, so in this case it is a risk for the label but not so much for the artist as he or she has already been paid. In some cases the deal is more complex, a flat rate for so many albums and a share of the profits is not unknown for very well known artists. The artist’s production company pays for studio time, video shoots etc. The production company also take the profits from live shows, although in some cases the music label shares the profits depending on the deal struck. This is why big artists become sometimes richer than their record label. For most artists though this isn’t an option because they aren’t powerful enough, well known enough, or don’t have enough money at the start to finance all of this.
The big record labels are just as corrupt as governments and pirates, look at how Edwyn Collins (remember him) was and still is, being treated by Warner Music. When he fell ill he negotiated a deal that meant ALL copyright in his works reverted back to him. However, MySpace recently removed some of his music from his page after a takedown notice from Warner Music, even though they have no right as they DO NOT own the copyright anymore. He has now discovered Warner selling his music via iTunes, illegally, and pocketing the profits. Warner are being the very pirates they accuse all of us of being.
Back to this debate, RM and other’s argue well, but won’t change my mind or anyone else’s to be honest. I rarely download illegal music or movies, I don’t need to myself. I earn a decent wage but I will not pay the inflated prices for new music and movies. Instead I wait a few months, buy my DVD’s from second hand stores or Ebay for 2-3 pounds each, and sometimes even less. When it comes to music I do much the same, if I want the CD I’ll again wait a bit and generally pick it up for a couple of quid, or listen to it via Spotify. Occasionally I’ll download a track of an old song that is difficult to get hold of but that is rare. The reason I don’t download illegally much is more to do with the fact that, when it comes to music anyway, there is just nothing much I actually like anymore. We get one bland, manufactured artist after another. A song from AKON sounds just like a song from Taio Cruz, which sounds just like a song from a hundred other artists who all sound the same. Katy Perry sounds like many others, Lady Gaga does too, Girls Aloud and the Sugababes..what’s the difference?. I get a lot of music from small labels who DO give away music for free, yes they exist.
The big 4 labels destroyed the independent music labels in the 70s, 80s and into the 90s so that now all the better known smaller labels are actually owned by the big 4. The internet has given some smaller labels a way of getting themselves known and promoting their artists that the big 4 don’t like. The smaller labels are much quicker at embracing new technology, some give away whole albums and ask you to donate (which I have done many times), if I think the music is good enough.
The big labels need to wake up and stop trying to protect an outdated business model that isn’t working anymore. Plastic discs are so last century.
If it wasn’t for piracy we would NOT have iTunes and the other online stores. Napster, Audiogalaxy and theiur ilk showed that there was a demand for the downloading of music online. Previously the big labels dismissed it. MP3 as a mass format would not exist if it wasn’t for piracy. Online video sales are the same, they would not exist if it wasn’t pioneered by the pirates. DIVX was not invented as a commercial venture at first that came later. P2P technology pioneered by pirates lead to the rise of Hulu in the US (and the others) and BBC IPlayer, Channel 4OD and the others in the UK as well as to Spotify.
None of these would exist without internet piracy.
I believe if I buy something I should be able to do whatever the hell I want with it, be it share it on the internet, or copy it to my iphone.
I buy a DVD and I want to watch it on my phone, what should I do? PAY for it AGAIN from itunes? I think not.
I buy a game for xbox, I should be allowed to download the PC version for free as I already own the game, why should I have to pay for it again to play it on another platform?
I own Left4dead on xbox360 and would like to play it on PC too, I should be allowed.
well said dween 108 i totaly agree that goes for a genuin copy of windows to why should i have to pay for onother copy of windows just because my hard drive died
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