angry disbelief at the fact that people will still pirate to a large extent, even if the price per copy is under one dollar. The other is a deep research report into why people ignore the copyright monopoly. Short answer: because it is human nature to share." />

TorrentFreak

The place where breaking news, BitTorrent and copyright collide

It Was Never About The Money, Stupid

Two reports on the copyright monopoly have caught my attention this week. The first expresses angry disbelief at the fact that people will still pirate to a large extent, even if the price per copy is under one dollar. The other is a deep research report into why people ignore the copyright monopoly. Short answer: because it is human nature to share.

When the copyright industry goes out in a public confusion and asks itself what the right price is for a copy of a digital bitpattern, I always shake my head. The mere question shows that they are still stuck in the 1900s, and yet, they keep asking the question in their best voice of entitlement.

It was never about the money. The price of a copy doesn’t factor into it.

It’s not a matter of copies having come under competition from something else; it’s the matter of copies having been entirely decommercialized. People are prepared to pay for work, but making copies is not work anymore. Anybody can do it effortlessly.

Let me try an analogy. In a future where the Earth has been poisoned to an extent where the water is a health hazard, cleanup efforts have been ongoing for a long time. For health reasons, there are laws that people may only drink the water from a particular company, Waterisnew, which enjoys a monopoly on water supply — and know to charge for it, too.

Then, one day, nature’s water is announced clean by scientists. But the laws are still in place. People rush out into the forest and drink from rivers, despite the fact that it breaks laws and Waterisnew’s monopoly.

Executives at Waterisnew are furious that people dare break their monopoly. Somebody asks, cautiously, if the price of water may be wrong? Could there be a business failure involved? If they charged less for the water, then maybe people would stop pirate-drinking water from clean rivers and go back to legal alternatives?

As illustrated, the question misses the point entirely. Just as the water had become decommercialized, so has making copies of bitpatterns.

People don’t copy because of a price tag somewhere else, entirely regardless of what that price tag says. People copy because they can, because it is associated with freedom and because it is in human nature to share.

We’ve had large-scale file-sharing for well over twenty years, and there are still people surprised at having a 90% pirated user base. You can almost hear the scornful cries of how the greedy pirates won’t even pay 99 cents in the story above. That’s because price was never a factor in the first place.

What the copyright lobby will argue to lawmakers at this point in the argument is that they have spent serious money creating the bitpattern that people copy in violation of their monopoly, and therefore want to recoup that investment.

In this, they are exactly right. And irrelevant. The operative phrase here is “have spent money”. Economics 101: on a functioning market, any product will be priced at its margin cost, an economic term meaning the cost of making product unit number n+1 if you have already made n units, as n approaches infinity. The upfront cost of any first product is entirely irrelevant in a functioning market. And we all know the margin cost for duplicating a bitpattern: it is exactly zero.

(It is not hard to spend money, and lots of it. Usually, it can be quite fun, too. But there is never a legal right to earn burnt money back at a profit.)

“But if we can’t recoup the investment in the way we always have”, says the copyright lobby threateningly to lawmakers, “there won’t be any new culture created.” This is where they go so far out they don’t even reflect sunlight any longer. Humankind has created culture since we learned to put red paint on the inside of cave walls; others will pick up the slack immediately. If anything, it would be a blessing if the copyright industry challenged the world to see how well the world did without them.

Creative Commons is a good example of how millions of creators renounce their already-awarded copyright monopoly. That shows how much the monopoly is needed for new culture to be created, i.e. not at all.

There are plenty of good business cases in a world where anybody can copy anything, but selling executions of the “copy” command with something like a one-trillion percent profit margin, all while demonizing your potential clientele, was never one of them.

It was never about the money, stupid. It was about what people consider to be work.

Do we really have to repeat these very basics for this entire decade too?

— — —

Rick Falkvinge is a regular columnist on TorrentFreak, sharing his thoughts every other week. He is the founder of the Swedish Pirate Party, a whisky aficionado, and a low-altitude motorcycle pilot. His blog at http://falkvinge.net focuses on information policy.

Follow Rick Falkvinge on Twitter as @Falkvinge and on Facebook as /rickfalkvinge.

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  • Skypup

    Nice article Rick & yes, I do think we will have to repeat the very basics for a decade.

    • Nope

      The only issue I have with the article is. While an artist puts out a CD and 50 people buy it and 50,000 “steal” the physical work (not the digital 1s and 0s). Why are those 50,000 entitled to taking it for nothing when 50 paid for it? As human’s we have always battered for something. Sometimes you got a good deal and others – not so much. What has changed from that concept to, today? Nothing. Do i really give a shit, though? No. I just find it funny when i see people saying its not stealing when you are transferring digital copies of something. Oh ok.

      • Nope

        ^should be bartered.

      • Momo

        “While an artist puts out a CD and 50 people buy it and 50,000 “steal” the physical work”

        How is that an issue with this article, since this article is not about physical CDs?

        “As human’s we have always bartered for something”

        That’s the thing! This is not a case where the old rules still apply. Copies are in infinite supply, attention and money aren’t.

        There are other things where the old rules don’t quite apply. TorrentFreak, for example! How often do you click on ads? If you never click on ads, then why do you feel entitled to taking their articles for nothing?

        • Anon-e-mus

          If you never click on ads, then why do you feel entitled to taking their articles for nothing?

          Another analogy fail. If TF wants us to click ads, then they should make it mandatory by making it so that we can’t access the site unless we click an ad. Then we can decide whether to visit this site or not. If we still access the site after that without clicking on an ad by bypassing the ad page somehow illegally, then TF can sue us for wasting their bandwidth. But as it stands now clicking ads is optional while paying for copyright work is not, hence the analogy fail.

          That’s the thing! This is not a case where the old rules still apply. Copies are in infinite supply, attention and money aren’t.

          Copies are in infinite supply but you need the original to produce the copy and when you download a copy without paying, you aren’t paying for the original either. They aren’t asking you to pay the full price of the original (which is the case when you buy a physical product) but only a fraction of it since you get a copy of the original. If you wanted the original product to justify paying for it instead of copies, then you would have to pay $100 mills or whatever it took to produce the movie instead of the paltry $10 you pay now.

      • Alunmorgan

        ’50,000 “steal” the physical work (not the digital 1s and 0s).’

        Anybody who steals the physical work should be caught and prosecuted, It is wrong to steal physical items. Also its stupid to steal it when you can easily create your own copy for almost no cost.

        • FuckoffW

          pussy

      • Anonymous

        Those 50 chose to support the record label in that way. Or they are not so good with a computer and haven’t found out how the copy function works. If they didn’t want to do that they could have gone to the river for the non bottled water. And if they want to support the artist instead of the label they go to a concert and buy a t-shirt.

        • starving artist

          Why do people think that artists don’t make money from their album sales? I’m a musician with a record deal. I’ve read my contract. I know exactly how much money I make from my albums sales.

          Yes the label takes a share of the money, but they are the ones who gave us the opportunity to record, support us on the road, bust their asses trying to promote us and the other artists they represent, so i believe they deserve to make a living as well. None of these people are rich. Maybe in the 90′s they were, but rock bands in the 90′s were rich too (maybe because poeple bought their music). You know who else makes their living, in the end, from music sales? The engineer who recorded the music, the producer who puts in impossible hours trying helping the artist make the best work he can, the dude who owns the studio that you recorded in. All these people and way more are all creative, talented and hardworking people, and they are all effected when the result of their hard work is taken for free. Even the janitor who clean the bathroom of the studio is affected. If the label doesn’t make moeny from sales, they can’t give the artist and budget to record, so the artist can’t pay for studio time, so the kid who went to college for recording dreaming of making records in a studio can’t be hired because the studio doesn’t have the revenue they once had, and they can’t afford to hire that janitor anymore. These people deserve to be able to pay their rent too.

          But all this is beside the point. The idea that if you want to support an artist, just go to a show and buy a shirt but don’t but whatever you do don’t buy their music is silly. If you like an artist, chances are you were going to see them live anyway, and probably buy a shirt. Also we just got off the road, I don’t know if you’ve seen these gas prices, but all the money from ticket sales and merch sales pretty much go straight into the gas tank unless you are selling out venues that seat. Most bands are quite at that level. They could really use the albums sales.

          You want to support a band, buy their music. You also support other people that aren’t pieces like everyone seems to think. If you download an artists music you are saying to them “I love your music, but I don’t give a shit about you. Or the people you work with”

        • starving artist

          I meant to say “seat thousands” in the last paragraph

        • Momo

          @ “starving artist”

          Interesting diatribe, but could you share some facts and figures with us, just to make sure you aren’t some random troll?

          I don’t know the specifics of your alleged contract, but it sounds like you recouped your advance from the label, is that right? Well done, not many artists manage that. Some ballpark numbers about that advance would be nice.

          Also, could you share some info about your royalty agreements? Basically, I’m asking you to tell me, how much money do you personally make from your label/$1,000 sales (physical + digital). I’ll be astonished if it’s more than 50 bucks…

        • Ven

          “Short answer: because it is human nature to share.”

          This sentence is the only issue I have with the article. It is in human nature to be greedy, and greed and a desire to share are mutually exclusive. Science and philosophy tend to agree that greed (an extension of narcissism) is present in all humans. Statistical study shows that the wide majority of the earth’s population believes in religions that support selfishness as a part of the human condition.

          I just don’t know if the argument that file-sharing isn’t wrong because we innately want to share is going to have any effect.

          @Momo

          It’s easier now to recoup advances than it used to be, thanks to indie labels and the internet lowering publicity costs. If Starving Artist is signed to an RIAA label (or one of their 1/2/3-deep indie labels) he probably gets around 12-16 cents on the dollar for physical/digital sales, less if he didn’t write his lyrics and/or music. If he is in a band, that money is split between them.

          The reason many big artists start labels is because they can’t get more than 20 cents on the dollar even if they are famous.

          There are in my opinion two strong reasons to be a labeled artist:

          - Labels have the power to get you into big venues.
          - Labels push and get you decent radio play, which is where the real revenue comes in for songwriters.

          When you look at a wildly successful artist you have to realize that the label’s purpose is to make them widely known, not make them rich. Without a label/publicity company, artists have a near zero chance of ever playing a large venue, getting endorsements and commercial spots, or being able to simply set up a shop on the internet and churn sales. All bands need a gimmick to get ahead, and that is really what a label is: a gimmick.

        • http://twitter.com/ikostar Nick Taylor

          @starving artist

          You list a whole load of jobs, where people are paid for their labour… off the back of a system that expects… demands… to work once, get paid forever.

          That kindof defies the laws of thermodynamics.

          Charging a monopoly rent on something that is about as containable as the smell outside a restaurant.

          I mean good luck to you if you can get away with it… “selling copies of information”… but don’t expect us to support changing the laws in ways that functionally break the internet to support it.

          The internet is bigger, and more important than the old entertainment industry.

          Intellectual Property is a trojan horse for state/corporate control and censorship of the internet – and my advice to you is to get hip… adapt, or find yourself on the side of old, evil and ugly.

          Oh yea – and I’m also a musician – from the London/UK music scene in the early 90s – looking back, the whole thing was a scam. The people in the jobs you describe all got paid first, the musicians with very very few exceptions wound up with sweet fuck all. The industry used them, then fucking dumped them when next weeks fashion of the month turned up.

          Middlemen do not have a god-given right to exist.

        • Ethics Appreciator

          @Ven
          Greed and sharing are not mutually exclusive, people are more complicated than that. Yes, humans are greedy, however altruism is another trait humans, among other animals, have and it is under this that sharing falls.
          Altruism is scientifically evidenced and there are many references to it in religions, too, i.e. normally claiming to teach it to their followers.
          We are genetically programmed to share with other people.

        • Ven

          @Nick Taylor

          The artists get paid last because they are in low demand with a very high supply. Keep in mind that the label eats the cost should the artist not recoup the investment. Artists basically receive risk-free loans to create and distribute their music, with almost no stipulations besides royalties paying the label back.

          It’s a really good deal for the artists.

          @Ethics Appreciator

          Religions hold altruism as a sought-after ethical ideal, not some form of indwelt habitual or instinctive trait. The scientific and philosophical communities believe almost universally that pure altruistic tendencies do not occur within nature, and that forms of altruism come with some form of egoism attached.

          In the case of file sharing we would realistically be looking at some form of reciprocal altruism, where there was some form of return expected on the act of sharing.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

          I really have to inquire about that contract…

          “Keep in mind that the label eats the cost should the artist not recoup the investment. Artists basically receive risk-free loans to create and distribute their music, with almost no stipulations besides royalties paying the label back. ”

          Bwuh? That doesn’t sound like anything I’ve heard about recording contracts with the big labels…

        • Ven

          @Jay

          A great book to pick up on the subject is called Confessions of a Record Producer by Moses Avalon. He has a website but honestly it hurts my eyes and makes me feel like he is trying to brainwash me, so I recommend the book.

          The reality is that everyone (band managers, producers, engineers, labels, and lawyers) are biting and kicking for as much of the pie as they can get, and artists simply do not have the negotiating muscle to come out on the top of the pile.

          However, artists are given money up front to fund the album, press, and potentially a tour, and they don’t have to repay anything should the venture fail. There are many cases where tens of thousands of dollars are spent on a band that splits before the music is released or even finished, and the label is left holding the bag. Of course, the labels (and their lawyers) have all kinds of ways to offset the potential for failure, including holding 100% of the royalties until the investment is recouped. There are often artists still in debt to their labels after 2-3 successful albums.

        • Momo

          @Ven

          You make a perfect point of why I think the label system is fucked up beyond comprehension. It’s all about the middlemen who have all the power, and the powerless artists who are treated like cheap goods.

          FYI, the risk is mostly passed to the artist, who could never see a cent from his work even if he sells a million albums. The trick is, the label already receives 90% of the revenues for themselves, and the advance is recouped from the artist’s 10% share.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

          @ Ven

          “Record label contracts”

          How to sell 1 million albums and still owe $500,000 –
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcwgdB0NltY

          Recording industry accounting -
          http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100712/23482610186.shtml

        • Ryzzo

          @Starving Artist

          I’d also be very interested in hearing some of the details of your contract if you would be kind enough to share.

          While I sympathize with your argument that you find it silly that fans would want to support their favorite artists without supporting the record labels, you have to understand that this way of thinking is a direct result of how the labels treat their consumers and how they are portrayed to treat their artists (whether fact or fiction). When the record labels constantly litigate against their consumers it is easy not to like them. When they try to change laws to protect their business model and force consumer behavior rather than react to what the consumer wants and adapt their business model, it is even easier not to like them or want to support them. Business is driven by the market, and the market makes very clear what it’s demands are. Successful business listen to their market and provide the product requested, and those that don’t eventually fail. The record labels are big, but that just makes their inevitable death all the more slow and painful. You can’t force consumer behavior.

        • Ven

          @Momo

          The middle men do have all the power, because they have the ability to make you famous. And it spells all of this stuff out in the contracts (which are rarely over 25 pages long – an easy read for the intelligent artist). Artists are nearly powerless because they are an easily replaceable commodity.

          And what you mention as risk is really a statistically low return on investment, not risk. It’s true that an artist can still owe their label money after even 4-5 albums, but if an artist is selling enough after 2 albums for the label to invest in a 3rd they are usually making good money as a result of being pumped through the label’s strong distribution and publicity machine.

          It is true that an artist can fail to repay the label after a million albums sell, but the reality is that unsigned artists will never have a chance to have a platinum-selling album. These comments regularly mention Trent Reznor, but what he is doing is the classic example: he used his label contracts for the marketing and success, and now releases music on his own terms because he has the fan base.

          Smart artists see a label contract as a marketing tool; only the idiots are seeing dollar signs at that point.

          @Jay

          Your first video is the exact reason why you want an experienced lawyer looking at the contract before you sign. There is a surprising level of negotiation that can be done before the label will choose to pass on the artist. This is because the labels leave lawyers to deal with contracts, and the lawyers just want to get paid.

          These are of course major labels we are talking about. The indie labels (even ones owned by majors) have much lower advances that need to be repaid, and generally that advance can include producer, recording, mixing, and mastering.

          The article you posted is similar, and paints a bleak picture. However, none of these take into account songwriting royalties (which only the dumbest of morons would give to the label) as well as endorsements and tour income. Lady Gaga for instance has released a total of 2 albums since she hit the scene in 2008: she is currently worth over 110 million dollars.

          The end result is that signing a label contract is not a direct payoff, it is an opportunity to get yourself or band marketed enough to be in a position to make some real cash. The article mentions 30 Seconds to Mars being a band that got screwed over, but their lead singer Jared Leto alone is worth $40 million. How much of that could he have realistically expected to make if the band had self-released back in 1998?

      • DarknezzMadnezz

        50 people felt that the work was worth paying for… while 50000 got a copy disliked it… and possibly removed it after seeding for at least 7 days.
        even if all those people didn’t remove it and kept sharing… they are allowing others that join to get a copy themselves and give it it their own personal opinion.
        you are still looking at the money Nope… Look at the fact that 50 out of 50000 felt that it was worth paying for not to mention that their are people that donate after the fact of paying for a copy just to show their support.
        Take the blinds off and look at life to its fullest… not just with smoke and mirrors in hopes to keep a fat pocket of money.

      • Man

        The article is not about stealing original CD’s with artwork and other bonus from music stores.

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      • Dave

        It takes specialized equipment to make a blank CD. This is why CDs are valuable – there is a natural scarcity. You can’t just combine common household products and create a CD.

        ANYONE with a computing device can create a copy of an album. Technology has advanced to the point that it is now easier to create a bit-copy than it is to load a CD into a drive.

        If we adapt your scenario to Falkvinge’s analogy, the 50,000 people would be raiding Waterisnew’s warehouses (I’m assuming bottled water) instead of going to the rivers, lakes, and streams. In his analogy, water itself has no tangible value – it is everywhere. The valuable part is the filtration and bottling.

        It is just as wrong – and for the same reasons – for 50,000 people to steal blank CD-Rs as it is for 50,000 people to steal physical copies of an album.

        • Scary Devil Monastery

          Good luck persuading someone who thought being an artist is a 9 to 5 job and whose “water analogy” would be that water only exists in bottled form on retailer shelves.

      • Jacque Fresco

        There is no such thing as ‘human nature’, there is ‘human behaviour’.
        If a person is raised since child to be selfish and greedy he won’t share anything.

        • TheMAXX

          Actually, scientific studies show that giving something of value to someone else stimulates the brain in a positive way more so than keeping that thing of value for yourself. Human nature is what we are born with which is our bodies built by our DNA. Emotions are the automatic programs that get executed in response to certain stimulus. Emotions are built into all animals and tailored through evolution to best keep those animals alive. Yes we can learn to ignore our emotional programming but that means making yourself unhappy or injured while ignoring the positive results of doing the opposite. Some people act like that but obviously very few. If even a few percent of the people acted in such destructive ways the damage to society would be so great that our species wouldn’t survive.

          Imagine the amount of damage each destructive person would do and how many normal people it would take to repair the damage and you can see that logically the messed up people would have to be a tiny minority in order for the species to survive.

      • Emmanuel

        Why has NO ONE pointed out that 50,000 people all stealing the same physical work has never fucking happened? I can see 50,000 people “stealing” a digital copy of said physical work, however the fact that you think it’s stealing when one illegally downloads a digital copy of an artists work based off of that reasoning is completely retarded

        • Scary Devil Monastery

          “I can see 50,000 people “stealing” a digital copy of said physical work…”

          I can’t see that. It would be the biggest hacker scam in recorded history if someone broke into a database, made off with a copy of 50.000 music files and then burned the original database and any other existing copies down behind him.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

          @Scary Devil Monastery

          Or.. Ya know, it has 50000 views on Youtube.

        • Scary Devil Monastery

          @Jay

          Except for the trivial but very important distinction that both the guy who posts the Youtube data and the creator of the original still possess the data in question.

          “Theft” would be some breaking into the bank accounts of 50000 people and stealing their cash. That’s not what’s happening in this specific example or yours unless said 50000 decided to publicise their bank account and personal code on Youtube.

          Or unless someone else did that for them. Hasn’t happened yet.

          Individual bank account data is worth money, after all. Don’t get me started on SWIFT…

      • http://joabstories.blogspot.com/ Joab

        They are not entitled, but they can do so easily and that is a reality that every artist must face and deal with.

        One option is to criminalize whatever technology makes possible. Another option is to find other ways to make money from art.

        Personally, I chose the second option. It is more humane, more decent, and it also allows everyone to participate in consuming and creating culture – why should there be economic barriers to culture in the digital age? Shouldn’t the lower costs of making art be reflected in wider participation in art?

        My answer is yes.

      • Skypup

        So when you refer to it as the “physical work” you’re talking about shoplifting right, so here i go repeating the very basics in this decade again to someone who has missed the concept of sharing, thinks we all still have to use the old system of bartering & as Rick noted at the end of the article “what people consider work”.

        Ok, when someone buys a copy of CD (i.e ‘physical work’) they have the option of sharing it on the web, taking it to a friends house to listen to, loaning it to a friend so they can listen to it or taking it to a party to play with all your friends. They have paid for it so ultimately it is theirs to do what the want with it. See you’re thinking of the people receiving it not the person sharing it, this is a typical of greed that you’re displaying.

        So when you wrote ‘what has changed from that concept’ in regards to bartering, nothing is the correct answer. This is why we don’t use the old system of bartering anymore as ‘sometimes you got a good deal and others – not so much’. Now people can share with others & everyone can get exactly the same thing without the need for bartering. See its this new system called sharing where a person puts up a lets say….product, cause it has to be a product if its work as you’re producing work to make money right, now not everyone will consider that particular work as ‘great work’ so its monetary value differs from person to person.

        Lets take Amy Winehouse for example or ‘Wino’ as most of the media & i like to call her, you & the music industry may think her ‘work’ is really good & worth purchasing whereas i think its just a bunch of radio friendly soulless crap no matter how many times i hear it said that she sounds like Shirley Bassey. Now that Wino has died i’ll bet the music industry is saying that her recordings have increased in worth but to me that is not the case, i still think its radio friendly soulless crap. Depending on the contents worth to the individual will define its monetary value to the individual, so gone are the days when bartering was needed & also the days when a person would swear blind that a particular artist was great, i would buy the top price CD as the artist was high in the charts at that time only to find out for me it was total garbage & this person had been fooled by the single on that was getting all the radio airplay & the rest of the album was total garbage according to them also after i had loaned the CD to them.

        As far as you giving a shit, of course you do! You wouldn’t say you think its funny if you didn’t give a shit. Funny in the sense that you have bought a crap CD or paid for a ticket to a crap film, even bought a crap book which u couldn’t get refunded & lost your money on.

        Good luck getting your head round all that :0)

      • Loeramayor

        ok why radiohead have so success selling their album themselves?
        its obvious you dont need the producer any more but they have monopoly

        • Ven

          Radiohead can sell themselves because they were labeled for a decade and built for themselves a huge reputation and fanbase.

          If you want to discredit the label industry, try finding a band that have never been signed but still has as much success as Radiohead.

      • gae

        Copying and stealing, 2 words. Go look up their definitions and you will find they are not the same.

        Even if you consider evrey copy a lost sale (which in most cases it is not) then a sale that never took place is still not stealing.

        • Ven

          To share/download a copyrighted digital file without permission of the rights holder is in fact theft, the taking of their right to distribution (an intangibly-valued property under the Constitution) unless covered by fair use or personal use laws.

      • Here David

        So I worked today for X$ and for the rest of my life I will receive x$ for that very same work I previously did. How greed has run away…sing a song, act in a movie, etc. get paid once, this paying for work already paid for does not apply to the everyday working person so why should they pay for others work many, many, many times over.

      • Lynx
    • ZengaZenga

      Its About Control, Rick!

    • erkant

      I meant to say “seat thousands” in the last paragraph

      http://www.kartusnoktasi.com

    • Anon-e-mus

      Its not a “nice” article. Infact, its one of the dumbest articles ever written with an analogy that is laughable at best. Obviously Rick has no answer to the overwhelming amount of people who have torn apart this article with sensible and meaningful arguments.

      I reckon he has gone back into hiding after making a fool of himself. If he thinks his pirate party will ever get elected with the sad & foolish mentality he has, he better start taking more of the whiskey he is already taking.

  • Maremie

    ya trollsuck

  • Julian

    Hmm I don’t agree 100% on that it’s not about the money. To me, 50 bucks for a game is just too much. Not that I couldn’t afford it, hell no. I just don’t value it that much and therefore I refuse to pay for them in many cases. I don’t even wanna know what I’d have to pay for the series I am currently watching, ignoring the fact that I couldn’t even buy them legally anyway.

    But then I agree on the fact that it’s not really about the money. It’s more about how accessible it is to consume media and currently it’s a pain in the ass when you want all 4? types of them (movies, porn, music, games). We don’t even have netflix (officially) here in europe.

    And as long as pirated media stays more care-free than legally bought one nothing gonna change (DRM).

  • Julian

    Hmm I don’t agree 100% on that it’s not about the money. To me, 50 bucks for a game is just too much. Not that I couldn’t afford it, hell no. I just don’t value it that much and therefore I refuse to pay for them in many cases. I don’t even wanna know what I’d have to pay for the series I am currently watching, ignoring the fact that I couldn’t even buy them legally anyway.

    But then I agree on the fact that it’s not really about the money. It’s more about how accessible it is to consume media and currently it’s a pain in the ass when you want all 4? types of them (movies, porn, music, games). We don’t even have netflix (officially) here in europe.

    And as long as pirated media stays more care-free than legally bought one nothing gonna change (DRM).

    • Weawer

      There is a problem with the part of “i refuse to pay the price even if i can afford it” since the game was obviously worth playing anyway.. if your gonna boycott for the price you dont buy it and dont play it.. not pirate it becouse “that showed them” becouse that will only give the excuse “we didnt make money not becouse our game was bad or overpriced, but becouse of pirates”
      i would like to point to an excelent video about this that sees it from both sides
      http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2653-Piracy

      • http://twitter.com/K1rkpad Dylan Kirkpatrick

        Exactly. Julian says “I just don’t value it that much”, meaning, he doesn’t think the media is going to be very good anyways. Don’t download the media OR buy it if you think it’s going to be “lacking in value”.

        • rafsyd

          Just because it someone doesn’t value the media at retail price doesn’t mean they don’t value it. The vast majority of games, for instance, are not at all worth 50 to 60 dollars, but are worth 10-20 dollars (from my perspective). That’s why people pirate the games. A flexible payment system would make much more sense than a flat-fee system, at least as far as games are concerned.

        • Anon-e-mus

          @rafsyd

          What exactly do you mean by a flexible paying system? You mean customer pays whatever they like while buying the product? Why should such a system be entertained for games when it doesn’t exist in the real world for any product?

          When you want to buy an expensive physical product but don’t have the money to buy it or you think its overpriced, you just don’t buy it and use it, you look for a cheaper product or you do without it altogether. For example, most of us would love to drive around in a Ferrari but due to lack of money we settle for cheaper cars but do we go around complaining how expensive Ferraris are?

          Then why is different for games and movies? If you think games are overpriced, stop buying and playing games till they lower prices or only buy from companies selling at reasonable prices.

    • Guest

      Because before you pay 50 bucks you about other stuff you could with that money. Survival first, entertainment later.

      • Guest

        think*

      • Guest

        So because you valued life over entertainment, someone who has put their effort into their livelihood has to suffer a little more? Hardly seems fair. The guys who make the games value their life and survival as well and piracy detracts from his life and survival. Yes with 50 bucks, I could choose to buy the game, or I could put it into survival. And yes, I would absolutely put it into survival. But I wouldn’t, metaphorically speaking, spit on the guy who made the game. If I’m going to put 50 bucks into survival instead of the entertainment that this guy worked on, I’m not going to deny him his livelihood because I chose life over entertainment. That just sounds pigheaded.

        • TheMAXX

          Because we are programmed by evolution to derive pleasure from sharing with others, we will buy that game if we can afford it. But you have to realize that the person who made that game is in the business that is non-essential for survival. Obviously people who can grow food or make shelter will have greater job security than someone who provides entertainment or even something like a game which is more like teaching or training than pure entertainment. I myself like to make music and visual artworks and I know that I stand on the shoulders of many others to allow me to do what I do.

    • Scary Devil Monastery

      Second the motion. Anyone remember when “Spore” hit the shelves? even diehard fans who bought the retail version ended up installing the pirate bay distributions because that way the DRM didn’t screw your computer over. Unbelievable.

    • SF

      Personally i buy any game that is fun if its priced appropriatly, if the price is too high i wait until it gets lower, There are far too many great games out there for me to be able to waste my precious time downloading crap. (I only buy games through gog.com and steam unless its something really special)

      Personally i consider €1 per hour of entertainment to be a decent rate for things that are copyable (I know alot of people value their entertainment far less than i do, its a highly subjective thing after all)), If i have to actually physically go to a store to get myself a copy you can remove €5 from its percieved value for me, if i have to return the copy to the same store you can remove another €5 (Which means a €2 rental movie has to provide me with atleast 12 hours of high quality entertainment for me to bother, (thus i wouldn’t even bother going to the store to pick up a free copy of “insert movie name here” if they were handing them out)

      Conveniance is far more important than price in my eyes, entering my creditcard number is an inconveniance (Its not a huge one though as my bank lets me generate temporary Visa CC numbers from their website, but for others i know it can be a huge hassle (For kids having to go to their parents and beg just so that they can buy a €1 iPhone game is pretty much a deal-breaker)

  • Occams-razorback

    I couldn’t have put this better myself. The Copyrighters, hell the whole entertainment/media industry are stuck in the past. As Dylan once said: “The times, they are a changin’”…that reminds me, I gotta download that…

    • Anonymous

      Quoting Dylan huh? Very nice. And I think quite a few other lines in that song apply to the situation as it is. But hey, I won’t quote Dylan. I think it’s much better if those who haven’t heard him or that song go out and listen to it on their own and draw their own conclusions from it’s lyrics.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Richard-Coleman/1254591586 Richard Coleman

    For certain kinds of music and from certain eras it is about availability too. many of the songs i like and the types of music I like are all but unheard of on the radio anymore. A far as software goes, my serious exposure to computer software availability goes back almost 20 years when BBS’s had much of the software available free for the downloading. Few people worried about gettign any pay for their work. It was a labor of love. Only when the large companies got the idea there might e money to be made did it begin to get ugly.

  • Pingback: http://torrentfreak.com/it-was-never-about-the-money-stupid-110724/ – Teilen ist ein natürliches menschliches Verhalten #g #p2p | Halbschatten

  • Anon

    I happen to enjoy the existence of AAA video games and it would be sad if you had your way and those were to go away.

    • Anon

      They wouldn’t go away, the games would just get better because the AAA industry wouldn’t be profit-driven shareholderpalooza, it would be game and innovation-driven like it should be.

      • Dicks

        you’re a fucking idiot if you think this is true.

        games are in the state they are in because people supported certain types of games. millions of people bought CoD – they made another CoD. a few thousand bought mirrors edge, they didn’t make another one.

        there’s lots of things wrong with the industry but thinking you are doing a service by stealing games is retarded. fuck you.

        • Randomcl

          Mirror’s Edge sold millions. Not sure why you’d attempt to go that route when you can’t even get it right. A sequel was even being developed but was cancelled it because it was shit. A sequel will surely come out in the near future, because the game was insanely well received. Again, not sure why you’d use that as an example when, in reality, it was extremely popular.

        • http://profiles.google.com/artfulldragon TL Dragon

          You’re a whole new level of fucking idiot. You have had so much of the fucking kool-aid your brain is too addled to consider the massive amount of games and creators that will NEVER have their product brought to light because the large companies have made it fucking impossible.

          It is damn near impossible to get your game in the big leagues if you aren’t flush with $$$$$$$$. Fucktards like yourself too stupid to realize C.O.D. isn’t the pinnacle of gaming development.

          You want your game in the big leagues and you aren’t one of the major players, you gotta sell out. The big boys then take your awesome fun and different game and rape it so that it has a larger appeal and a cheaper production cost. What was once an innovative and interesting game is now just another dingleberry waiting for it’s final plunge into the tidy bowl blue that is video game hell. No way is innovation going to get in the way of making super tools such as yourself keep paying for the same damn C.O.D. game over and over and over. OMG they added ZOMBIES!! WTFBBQ heres my $70 and OMG sign me up for the monthly subscription!!!!!11111!!

          Thanks to assholes like you we can look forward to shit like Halo Reach: Escape from Shady Pines. C.O.D. 76 Slap fights of fury. All for the low low price of a kidney and 1/4 of a lung!!

          Finally: The Mirror’s Edge comment proves my point. They took an awesome game and premise and shit all over it. Less time working out ways to anally molest the consumer and more time making a game that wasn’t broken shit would have meant we don’t all have to wait around to pay another 100$ for the same old shit with new maps.

        • DarknezzMadnezz

          a big fuck you too my ignorant fiend.
          Its like Richard Coleman stated a few comments above… only when major companies entered, is when things began being created with the objective of making “lots” of money off of it… Leaving us with games like Magicka that are updated 50x’s before correctly working because they spent too much time pushing deadlines up to make an appearance on a set date.

          Might I add that IMO all CoD’s sucked… Never paid for them and only ever tried the games via consoles at the super market. Never will they get a dime off me for something that has been created 100x’s over for free all over the net… Exp. CombatArms, TeamFortress, A.V.A. just to name a few. great games and a lot better controlled environments.
          As you wont see videos of people trolling “Griefing” in these games without having their account banned within a week.
          Again… Major companies do not care about the consumer till the consumer refuses to pay and looks another direction for their needs.

        • http://twitter.com/uJonesing Utah Jones

          Minecraft. ‘Nuff said.

        • TheMAXX

          Good thing that the human nature to share means that many people will continue to buy games in order to support the makers of those games. If it outweighs other concerns one will feel good about spending that money on a game precisely because of the sharing instinct.

  • Elisa ? Knockout™

    Rick always has great articles and speaks truth thanks again for bringing knowledge to light. You are an inspiration.

  • Elisa ? Knockout™

    Rick always has great articles and speaks truth thanks again for bringing knowledge to light. You are an inspiration.

  • Dupa

    I hope Rick you are sharing with YOUR wealth so eagerly as you share games you do not own.

    • Guest

      Bit patterns are not wealth.

      • Dicks

        “bit patterns”

        i feel i am therefore entitled to claim any work you do on your computer as my own as they obviously have no intrinsic value to you. please hand over you email address and passwords, thanks!

        • Anonymous

          Handing over an email address and password has what to do with any work the guy you replied to creates?

        • Ven

          @electric_worry

          He was pointing out that, if 1′s and 0′s have no intrinsic value, then people should have no problem handing them over.

        • Anonymous

          @ Ven

          Handing over a personal email account and password is not comparable. With that information, because of the fact that most people use those same things to log in to the majority of sites they visit, he could then commit actual fraud and theft.

          Comparing me giving you my personal information to you downloading a song I create is in no way equal. Not even remotely. Yes, I get the 1s and 0s comparison, but it’s not the same thing. So it shouldn’t be “people should have no problem handing them over”. You want proof of that, just look at the PSN fiasco. People were furious that their account information (emails, passwords, etc) was essentially handed over to whoever hacked that. No, it wasn’t literally handed over, but the security on the actual data was practically nonexistent as to figuratively say “it was handed over”. Those were 1s and 0s. However, the release of that information had dramatic real world effects. Some people had fraudulent charges rung up on their debit/credit cards. Others had people attempt to steal their identities. Etc etc etc. All from email accounts and passwords to said accounts. A song being downloaded (note: it is not theft, call it what it legally is: copyright infringement) has no equivalent repercussions.

        • Scary Devil Monastery

          No, wrong. You can own information if you keep it a secret. That’s why you don’t share the pin code to your ATM card.

          If you played that pin code and your account number on the radio even once I think you’ll find that not only will people indeed empty your account – neither your bank, the cops, nor your insurance company will even lift a finger in earnest to get your money back for you.

          That’s the way information works and no other way. Playing a song any place where other people can hear it is tantamount to giving it away already. If you want to make a silly comparison to personally sensitive information then I’m just forced to assume that you indeed do consider posting your own personal confidential data in a forum to be the equivalent of playing a tune in public.

          And that makes you either a blithering idiot who doesn’t realize what he’s saying or a troll who indeed does know and is trawling for reactions.

        • Scary Devil Monastery

          @electric_worry

          “Comparing me giving you my personal information to you downloading a song I create is in no way equal. Not even remotely. Yes, I get the 1s and 0s comparison, but it’s not the same thing.”

          Actually it is the same thing. 1′s and 0′s. The reason the analogy is flawed is because we assume that every person with an IQ above single digits knows better than to holler his pin codes out loud at 8 p.m. on an MTV broadcast.

          Just a minor correction.

        • Anonymous

          No Ven, it is NOT the same thing. The 1s and 0s aspect is. It’s data. But personal email account and address being “shared” is in no way the same as a song being “shared”. And the repercussions of someone sharing their person info compared to sharing a song are AGAIN not the same thing. In no way, even remotely similar.

          You literally ignored everything I said, just to focus on one point that not quite proves your argument, but that you could use to suit your argument. 1s and 0s being the same. You ignored everything else. I’m sorry, but they’re not the same. Basically, the sharing of one can lead to someone’s life literally being stolen (their identity, their money, etc.). The sharing of the other means a song is heard by more people. How is that the same thing? It’s not. Not even by the wildest leap of the imagination is it close. Unless all you want to focus on is the 1s and 0s aspect. But if that’s the case, why are we having this discussion?

        • Tosser

          You’re arguing that data has a value above it’s value as data.

          I agree… but I don’t think you do.

    • Anonymous

      Are you kidding? Have you seen the taxes in Sweden? And the social system where 1 working person pays for 10 slackers and 10 immigrants? If that’s not sharing i’m at a loss.

      • Jon7272

        well become a slacker if your so jealous lol

        • Ven

          Why would you encourage the world to go from working creators to slackers?

    • Anonymous

      Are you kidding? Have you seen the taxes in Sweden? And the social system where 1 working person pays for 10 slackers and 10 immigrants? If that’s not sharing i’m at a loss.

  • the riaa is the illuminati

    The people who run Hollywood have close ties to the centralized bankers, and therefore have their mentality where as the institution can never take a monetary hit. Quite honestly, the reason why I share more often than but is because they are making crap movies lately. The thought that the quality of movies needs to increase never even crosses their mind.

  • Anonymous

    I disagree that price isn’t a factor. I can’t afford to spend 100 dollars for 100 songs.

    • Thehack3r

      exactly! I use legalsounds.com, I’m willing to pay money for music, but not at 99cents per song, they make out is a small price to pay. But common, the average person surely has thousands of songs on their ipod… I’m not going to pay thousands of pounds just to entertain myself with music. Nope, either I pay 9cent for them or get them for free.

  • Paul Brocklehurst

    do you know what fixed costs are?

    • lastbastard

      Margin cost is near zero anyway, no matter fixed costs are hight or low.

    • lastbastard

      Margin cost is near zero anyway, no matter fixed costs are hight or low.

  • http://twitter.com/WillTovey Will Tovey

    I think you may have missed the (original) purpose of copyright; it is all about getting people to pay for things they can get for free.

    If you look at the Copyright Act 1710, the problem it is trying to address was that with books you had a large cost of producing the first version, but near-zero cost (to publishers) of producing copies. This meant that the author would slave away to write a book, and then the evil publishers (how things change…) would grab an early copy and then flood the market with their own versions (helped by their oligopoly over printing).

    Copyright law was designed to stop this by spreading the financial return out over the first version and the first few copies so that no one copy is too expensive (vs the sponsor/patron model where the sponsor would pay for the first copy, and that money would be “burnt”; everyone else getting the work for copying cost).

    It was felt that, given the expenses involved and likely financial, a 14-year monopoly was the way to give authors a fair chance at recouping their expenses. The problem we have with copyright laws today is that the initial costs of producing a work have plummeted (due to word processors etc.), the costs of distributing can be near-zero (thanks to the Internet) and the rate of return is much higher (there are far more people who can read, never mind pay for books). As such, copyright should have been decreasing in duration since 1710, but the “evil publishers” got in the way when they realised that they could come out on top after all.

    While I agree with much of what you’ve said, and you’ve made some great points, I think that copyright *is* all about the money, but, perhaps, in a different way to how the copyright lobby would like us to think. The more who recognise this, the easier it will be to argue against the current legal situation.

    • Momo

      I think Rick makes a good case against non-commercial copyright. Having huge corporations take an artist’s work and broadcast it for profit without giving anything back would be unfair, and that’s a kind of copyright I could get behind of. Huge corporations enforcing their “rights” against private individuals to monetize every single copy is a different story.

  • Christophe Thomas

    Thanks for throwing this in …the discussion about file sharing seems to be dominated with the entertainment industry’s terminology that somehow it real questions tend to vanish behind the curtain of smoke of words like “piracy” and “IP”. The real question i of course how art work is being produced and how to encourage it. It is a fact that the entertainment industry has never contributed to any of this – they are the once that take any content and try to resell it to us … even though it is ours to start with.It is time to claim a “copyduty” …

  • Christophe Thomas

    are you getting paid for writing those lines ? Do you think I should pay you in case I use your idea ? How much do you think it is worth ?

  • Christophe Thomas

    I am with you on this one – lately the thought that I should get paid to watch the Hollywood product placement flicks has occurred to me – I just can t get rid of the feeling I am watching ads all along (not just before the movies).

  • Anon

    Sock puppets! Sock puppets everywhere!

  • Anon

    Sock puppets! Sock puppets everywhere!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OAGTJAK2LDJIR2VXLGIZJEUUHU Christian Ross

    I paid $32.69 for a XBOX 360 and my mom got a 17 inch Sony laptop for $94.87 being delivered to our house tomorrow by FedEX. I will never again pay expensive retail prices at stores. I even sold a 46 inch HDTV to my boss for $650 and it only cost me $51.77 to get. Here is the website we using to get all this stuff, WildCent.com

    • Thehack3r

      Clever way to spam a website, related to the post, yet it is just a sneeky way for you to advertise, maybe a scam site, clever :)

  • Guest

    Because they are a bunch of parasites and criminals and because we have to kill them all now before they enslave us.

  • http://tinyurl.com/niceskirt-srsly w3ts1ut

    Hitting hard as usual Rick.

    By TorrentFreak readers as my witness, the industries shall adapt, or face certain death. Artists are in a struggle between their own employers and the freedoms expressed by their own fans, but artists must realize that [human] nature does not and will not care for such extremist laws. I feel for content creators, and only wish that their employers, their bosses bosses, their multiple and obscured non-disclosure agreements, the entire industry, would stop living at the top of the pyramid schemes.

    Because we’re gonna bring high output blue laser saws to the MAFIAA GIZA and tear that shit apart.

  • Guest123

    Interesting Rick. I’m not sure that I buy that your motives are shared by all or even most pirates. I would like to see a study for this, because among people I personally know (the only marker I have for this), the reason they pirate is not because they want to share, they do it because they don’t want to spend money. Just as the anti-pirates ascribe greed as the main motive for piracy, you attribute altruism, and both of you have only conjecture and personal experience.

    In addition, that second study you linked to was related to social media, not piracy. The research on the two is not interchangeable. Just because it uses the word “share” does not mean they are the same thing.

    If I may stray from this point, I would like to raise a concern I have. The usual way I see people say business should change is by saying they should adopt service models. For example, music relies on live performances, movies on theaters. So, here’s my question In this world you propose where data is worthless, do you think that certain forms of media will suffer? In particular, what future do you see for videogames? How do videogames adapt to this new world? In particular, how do games like Shadow of the Colossus and Okami, games that are often held as some of the best work the industry has ever produced but have absolutely no use for services like multiplayer adapt to this new paradigm? The way I see it, the way developers will react to this is by avoiding certain genres of games, ironically, our best genres, because they can’t create a service out of them. I welcome anyone who can try to convince me I’m wrong.

    The problem we have is that it only seems logical that a filesharing based media will degrade the quality and quantity of our media. It seems like you’re taking a solution that could work for music, with the low entry costs and no relationship between type of music and money spent, and are forcing that solution to work for all forms of digital media. We care less about your “sharing” then we do about If you really want an article Rick, link to something that gives a realistic idea of how the world of media would look under your paradigm, instead of just taking it for granted that things would improve.

    I suppose I will end with a question. For the minority who post content, perhaps this is about sharing, but we must acknowledge that the majority of pirates will never post something to a torrent site. Can you really ascribe the same motives to them that you do to yourself? They aren’t sharing, are they?

  • Guest123

    Interesting Rick. I’m not sure that I buy that your motives are shared by all or even most pirates. I would like to see a study for this, because among people I personally know (the only marker I have for this), the reason they pirate is not because they want to share, they do it because they don’t want to spend money. Just as the anti-pirates ascribe greed as the main motive for piracy, you attribute altruism, and both of you have only conjecture and personal experience.

    In addition, that second study you linked to was related to social media, not piracy. The research on the two is not interchangeable. Just because it uses the word “share” does not mean they are the same thing.

    If I may stray from this point, I would like to raise a concern I have. The usual way I see people say business should change is by saying they should adopt service models. For example, music relies on live performances, movies on theaters. So, here’s my question In this world you propose where data is worthless, do you think that certain forms of media will suffer? In particular, what future do you see for videogames? How do videogames adapt to this new world? In particular, how do games like Shadow of the Colossus and Okami, games that are often held as some of the best work the industry has ever produced but have absolutely no use for services like multiplayer adapt to this new paradigm? The way I see it, the way developers will react to this is by avoiding certain genres of games, ironically, our best genres, because they can’t create a service out of them. I welcome anyone who can try to convince me I’m wrong.

    The problem we have is that it only seems logical that a filesharing based media will degrade the quality and quantity of our media. It seems like you’re taking a solution that could work for music, with the low entry costs and no relationship between type of music and money spent, and are forcing that solution to work for all forms of digital media. We care less about your “sharing” then we do about If you really want an article Rick, link to something that gives a realistic idea of how the world of media would look under your paradigm, instead of just taking it for granted that things would improve.

    I suppose I will end with a question. For the minority who post content, perhaps this is about sharing, but we must acknowledge that the majority of pirates will never post something to a torrent site. Can you really ascribe the same motives to them that you do to yourself? They aren’t sharing, are they?

    • DocGerbil100

      Guest123 – you seem to be one of the very few pro-copyright commenters on here asking intelligent questions instead of just bitching. Thank you very much for not being a dick. :)

      I don’t want to answer everything (detailed answers for every use-case in every industry could take literally weeks of writing), but for a short answer, I think that what’s needed is for various industries to develop more and better infrastructure than we have at present.

      People aren’t averse to paying if they think what they’re getting is worth it. Look at Steam and iTunes – both hugely easy to pirate, both with consumer-bases that are more-or-less fully aware that they could get free copies of everything in existence with little risk of detection (if they wish to and if they can be bothered) and both pulling in very large amounts of money.

      The fact that Steam’s service is sometimes outrageously poor and that iTunes is – in far too many ways – an appallingly bad service from beginning to end hasn’t detracted from their sheer convenience for millions of consumers worldwide.

      Arguably, almost every penny that goes to those services is essentially a donation of sorts – certainly, no user actually needs them to get their media of choice – and the money they earn is clearly far from being too small to support big business. There seems to me to be no reason at all why more and better services can’t support bigger and better projects – nor any reason why other industries can’t achieve comparable successes.

      To address just one of the games you mentioned: you’ve mentioned Okami a few times on these pages. For the record, I don’t think piracy had much – if anything at all – to do with it’s failure to sell. I thought it was a great game – and one of the industry’s few genuine pieces of Art – but I’m damned if I can find anyone else who feels the same way. Every last gamer I’ve recommended it to has either refused to touch it because it looks like a kids game, or come back to me with complaints about how it plays.

      Quality is always subjective, but sometimes the general public and the afficionado part company in a big way. If piracy didn’t exist at all (or even if Capcom had a different distribution model), I sadly suspect it wouldn’t have made too much difference to Okami’s fortunes.

      But.

      Currently the average gamer (not the average Capcom fan, just the hypothetical average gamer) buys… how many Capcom titles? One title a year? Zero-point-five titles a decade? Some point between the two? If Capcom is only getting the price of one game a decade from the average gamer, wouldn’t it make more sense for them to consolidate all their titles into one accessible, much-lower-priced service that appeals to every gamer all the time, instead of just every once in a blue moon?

      The knowledge that games were available cheaply is widely held to have been a major part of the success of earlier platforms – cheap games sells consoles and every manufacturer-led budget line – such as Sony’s old Platinum range (the last one I remember off the top of my head) – is created on that premise.

      If games publishers committed fully to producing games as part of a larger, dedicated online service – offering single player titles for download at little or no cost, genuinely worthwhile microtransactions and add-ons (i.e. not £1.50 for horse armour or £15 for four maps, both of which were seriously pushing it), subscription access for multiplayer title and so forth, I would be extremely surprised not to see those companies making at least as much money as they are now.

      Getting £50 out of a gamer is an occasional windfall. Getting £1 a month, every month, in perpetuity, from fifty or five hundred times as many gamers in return for a range of games and services should be much easier, not particularly costly and make for a significantly more relaxed, mature and generally much more stable industry for consumers, publishers and developers alike to benefit from (although that is rather assuming none of the big players involved does something truly, incredibly stupid, like starting a big, noisy fight with the hacking community. :D ).

      Royalties should be easy enough under the new system: whatever game is getting the most attention from gamers, gives the biggest share of the universal developer royalty back to the devs (although how that would be negotiated is a matter for those directly involved in the industry to work out).

      All projects should also have a ‘Reward’ button, so users can simply give money to a project’s developer if they want to.

      [ As an aside, here: if that idea sounds silly to you, please remember that most successful charities and churches and a great many political organisations turn over incredibly large sums of money purely through public donations - the public's generosity, loyalty and altruism should never be dismissed as lightly as many commenters seem inclined to.

      If it sounds too much like busking, just remember what I said earlier: every penny from someone who has the slightest idea about piracy is effectively a donation - and every piratable industry has effectively already been exactly that kind of street busker for decades, now.

      This includes iTunes and Steam, both of which are happily turning over billions. If that kind of money isn't good enough, then - no offense - I think you're a little bit mad. Since it's not realistically going away any time soon - outside of the authoritarian fantasies of the more rabid anti-piracy campaigners - you may find life to be a lot less stressful if you allow yourself to simply accept it. ]

      Getting back to the hypothetical business model, getting investment should become much easier: the development teams would pitch their ideas to the publisher, the publisher puts up the more promising and / or marketable candidates on the service for the public to donate to directly. If no-one’s interested in a given idea, the few donors get their money back. If it meets a minimum target, that shows it’s potential as a winner with the public, it can be developed to demo / short game. If enough donations continue to come in for more of the game, it can be developed to a full-length release.

      If the service becomes popular enough, it may even be conceivable that the entire projected cost of development could be moved out to the consumer – something which would take an awful lot of pressure and worry off of every business involved – when developers can concentrate solely on making a great game, it should pay off well for everyone.

      Third-party corporate sponsorship and advertising is also an option for projects under this system, providing the deal isn’t too one-sided. Advertising + gaming (in any significant detail) is it’s own separate debate, so that’s as much as I’ll say for now.

      There’s also no reason at all why games should not also continue to be made available through the more usual retail channels – ideally these would be focussed around creating an ultimate-christmas-or-birthday-gift / deluxe version / more-money-than-sense edition, with a year’s subscription or pre-unlocked microtransaction goodies (where applicable), loads of collectible stuff in the box, etc.

      Such a system should be far less vulnerable to bad decisions that the developer or publisher feels are right but the public won’t pay money for – the feedback from tens of thousands of gamers will tell it’s own story. With that greater relationship with the consumer, there might be fewer surprises for some gamers, but I feel the industry would be all the better for it – and with a better business-strategy, there would hopefully be more money floating around – and more freedom to take creative risks.

      You’ve suggested Okami wouldn’t work as any kind of service. I disagree entirely with that suggestion. I see absolutely no reason at all why it could not have worked as a series of downloadable episodes. It might actually have worked better in fact, particularly since later episodes would have had more consumer-feedback to draw upon – a few less interminable dialogue scenes would have been a definite improvement at some points.

      I also think – with more characters, more reliable beat-’em-up-like controls (which it needs in any event, TBH – the whole trying-to-hurriedly-paint-in-the-middle-of-a-fight-with-a-Dual-Shock-2 deal is a great idea that falls somewhat short as a gaming experience, IMHO – it’s fun, but not so much so that something more visceral and immediate wouldn’t have been better) and with some more-serious tweaks to make everything work in real-time – it could make for an outstandingly beautiful and playable MMORPG (the existing story-mode could just be the single-player mode, or episodes, as I suggested).

      Whether it could actually be made marketable enough that anyone other than myself would want to play such a game is another question, but I feel it could be magnificent, with enough TLC.

      Away from games and back to more general points, crowdsourcing is also worthy of mention. Currently, crowdsourcing supports smaller projects well enough, but a severe lack of good marketing (for which, read: they stick it on the website and pray someone notices) means that the vast majority of the public have never even heard of it. With time, experience and better some marketing infrastructure, a lot more money should become available.

      Whether the world’s evolving markets can ultimately support the biggest games, TV shows and movies is not yet a certainty – and whether it can also support the immense volume of content produced worldwide every day is something that can realistically only be discovered by trying – but there’s absolutely no fundamental reason I can see why it shouldn’t be possible. If the money’s there for the established markets, it can be there for the new one.

      All it really needs is for our creative industries to pull their heads out of the sand and commit themselves properly, instead of trying to use the internet as a glorified bargain bin for dead stock and overpriced microtransactions – and to actually start building delivery systems fit for the 21st century, instead of the backward, provincial, out-of-date nonsense we’re largely stuck with now.

      There are no guarantees of success in any business – and the ideas I’ve suggested are no exception – but not knowing the exact outcome in advance is no excuse for not trying. The future takes effort and always involves risk.

      Regarding your comments about altruism, life in general leads me to believe that approximately one third of all people are fundamentally selfish, one third tend to think of other people and the remainder tend to blow in the wind. Further – and again, purely in my own experience – around two-thirds of that altruistic third will tend to actually do something altruistic if they say they are going to.

      This gives a very rough ‘genuine altruism figure’ of 22% – close to the typical 20% figure quoted in the limited number of reliable references I’ve read as to just how many people actually seed on private torrent sites (as opposed to just doing the bare minimum).

      I have not seen any figures quoted for the ‘pure’ open trackers, but I would tend to assume it’s where most of the most-selfish third get their content – the occasional download from there – complete with sometimes minute numbers of seeders where they should be in the thousands – would seem to support this.

      If that 22% figure holds true for those of us who claim to see piracy as a try-before-you-buy and / or a DL-for-free-but-reward-good-creators method, it suggests very significant amounts of money may be coming to every creative industry solely because of copyright infringement.

      Against all that, I assume different forms and levels of media and different markets should all have a widely different effect on pirate-copy-to-legit-copy conversion-rates – almost by definition, a belligerent, disaffected 15 year-old boy is vastly less likely to have anything resembling a social conscience than a 40 year-old mother of three (paying’s also a lot harder without a credit card). This may be why some videogames (but not all) seem to often take disproportionately bigger hits from piracy than other media, including the $0.99 app discussed in Rick’s link.

      How this might affect a new business model that attempts to reconcile the legal market with piracy, I can’t honestly say with any certainty, but It’s something that I think is worth bearing in mind, either way.

      Thanks for your time, Guest123. All views expressed are purely my own opinion, no aggravation to anyone is intended. :)

      • Guest123

        Jesus Christ, I think you win an award for the longest post I’ve ever seen. I’ll make a longer response later after finishing my work, but for now, I just want to say one thing.

        About Okami; first, I’ve never actually met anyone who has complained about the game in any way once they’ve played it. I’m not saying piracy was a factor in Okami’s commercial failure. Okami failed because Capcom had already been looking to dissolve Clover Studios and made the decision to minimize marketing for Okami, ensuring that most consumers haven’t heard about it. The point I was trying to make was that Okami can’t be properly converted into a service-based model. The game would have to exist as part of a larger subscription model to be part of a service, and even then, that’s working on the assumption that pirates can’t create a parallel service with reasonably similar capabilities.

        Remember, the basic point of a service model is that the actual digital content is held to be worthless. Releasing Okami episodically wouldn’t have fixed that (and I strongly disagree with you that input would have led to much improvement), because that is still just digital content. Your comment about turning it into an MMORPG is what troubles me, because I think that’s the decision many developers will make; avoid singleplayer content that has a low return rate in exchange for multiplayer content that is easier to monetize. As far as I’m concerned, that’s the problem, not the solution.

        Ok, back to work. Will comment a bit more tomorrow.

    • Guest

      “I would like to see a study for this, because among people I personally know (the only marker I have for this), the reason they pirate is not because they want to share, they do it because they don’t want to spend money. Just as the anti-pirates ascribe greed as the main motive for piracy, you attribute altruism, and both of you have only conjecture and personal experience.”

      Think about the people who initially rip those CDs and DVDs to put them online – the actual “pirates” – those do not gain anything from doing it. You could say these are driven by altruism, or other reasons, but probably not greed.

      But you’re right, the vast majority of people, who simply download stuff – probably most of them are driven by greed.

      • Ven

        The people who initially rip can be driven by the respect earned – we have seen plenty on the elitism that exists within camming circles for instance.

        If you do it to feed the ego, it isn’t pure altruism.

        • Scary Devil Monastery

          There’s really no “pure” altruism. You always get something out of it. Even if it’s just a tangible relief of conscience. I contribute to charity every month and let’s be frank – even the personal satisfaction i get out of contributing means there is no real altruism involved.

          Same reason someone creates open source code. It’s either because of the direct benefit (i.e. writing a program allowing Linux distros to playback DVD’s) or it is because publishing good code gives you credibility and a reputation.

  • guest

    I don’t really like this article. Maybe I’m just misunderstanding it, but it seems like you’re saying that since there’s no physical media (and therefore the ability to easily and endlessly copy the content), piracy is ok.

    It was never about the physical media. It was about the service.

    Valve is a great example. I can pirate every game on steam easily, but I don’t. Why? Because the games are cheap (at least during the sales), they auto-update, they’re tied to an easy to use library complete with stat tracking, along with a robust friend’s list, etc. etc. It’s a good service.

    If a teenager on the internet can provide a movie or a game with better service than the big companies, than they fucked up pretty hard. Instead of focusing on DRM and fear mongering, they should simply provide better service.

    • Scary Devil Monastery

      “It was never about the physical media. It was about the service.”

      That’s just it. If a service is desired people will pay for that service. Spotify, Voddler, Netflix, Hulu, Valve…these models all work.

      The problem is that copied information isn’t a service and that you can’t put a price tag on something which has no replication cost (in time or money) at all.

  • guest

    I don’t really like this article. Maybe I’m just misunderstanding it, but it seems like you’re saying that since there’s no physical media (and therefore the ability to easily and endlessly copy the content), piracy is ok.

    It was never about the physical media. It was about the service.

    Valve is a great example. I can pirate every game on steam easily, but I don’t. Why? Because the games are cheap (at least during the sales), they auto-update, they’re tied to an easy to use library complete with stat tracking, along with a robust friend’s list, etc. etc. It’s a good service.

    If a teenager on the internet can provide a movie or a game with better service than the big companies, than they fucked up pretty hard. Instead of focusing on DRM and fear mongering, they should simply provide better service.

  • Pingback: It Was Never About The Money, Stupid | We R Pirates

  • Gg

    “But if we can’t recoup the investment in the way we always have”, says the copyright lobby threateningly to lawmakers, “there won’t be any new culture created.”

    I dont agreed with this statement, so according to this guy music only came about because some person at some point in time offered someone else money to make some msuic

    So there is NOT ONE person in this world that makes music for the sake of music?
    C’mon I fail to believe that the entire world is as greedy as this copywrong monopoly thinks it is.

    • Gg

      and on another note, i dont even pirate music anymore, cause it is all crap now adays anyway, not even worth to pirate

      • Anaconda

        I wouldn’t go that far.
        I pirate about 6 albums a year….the rest of it is crap, not even worth to pirate.

    • TheMAXX

      probably over 99% of music is made just to make a song that the artist likes. Very few artists make art in exchange for money.

    • Anon

      Yeah, some people will will make music for the sake of music, but what about film makers, or game developers? Imagine if you will, a world where %0 of people pay for things, and just pirate everything.

      Even the cheapest movie that any of you has heard of probably had a budget of at least $50 000, how many people are going to upfront 50 grand to film a movie to not make a single penny off of it, or have it lead to any future career, which is what most indy film makers are hoping for. Evn if they did, maybe you’ll get a film of Brick or 500 Days of Summer quality here and there, but there would NEVER be a Lord of the Rings, or Star Wars, or Wall-e. It would just be a bunch of gay cowboy’s eating pudding.

      Same goes for games, everyone hails minecraft for not being tied to a studio and making millions of dollars, but thats just it, it made millions of dollars, if everyone prated it, Notch would have given up ages ago because nobody wants his product.

  • http://mvario.myopenid.com/ mvario

    Infringing on copyright, which has been extended far beyond what if ever should have been, given its intention, is not stealing because “no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it”

  • Paul K

    I think convenience is a large part of it as well. The pirate versions are simply better. I can play them on most devices without restriction, require no special software or hardware and can be gained by one click. Also there are no ads to delay enjoyment.

    Would you prefer a hard drive with 100 X 1080p movies or 100 Blueray disks?

    • guest

      It’s like what I said above; if a kid on the internet can provide better service than you, you fucked up.

      Another thing to note is that although the cost of distribution is 0, the cost of production is not. That’s something I think this article fails to notice; I should pay for the work that went into making it, but not the work that went into copying it.

      Of course, I won’t pay for bad products with terrible service, or overpriced products, but it’s just stupid to say that no one should pay for anything ever. It just won’t work, not to mention that people will pay for things anyways. In fact, there is evidence that most music pirates actually buy more music than most people. We’re perfectly fine with paying for things, just don’t demonize piracy and provide a good product.

      • TheMAXX

        I don’t think anyone would say don’t pay for anything ever. In fact human nature is to share which means paying the artists when possible since it will make you feel good to do so.

  • Guest

    “If anything, it would be a blessing if the copyright industry challenged the world to see how well the world did without them.”

    the 19th century has seen a artistic explosion while the corporation of entertainment parasites where not there.

    The 20th century sucked however. Most everything was crap, the painting the sculpting the music, the architecture even though new technologies appear.

    Why? Because of the corporations of parasites!

    Talent is rare. very very rare. Talent is so rare that it is hard for any corporation to make money with it because there is simply not enough talented people to support all these big money hungry corporations of criminals.

    So what did they do? The censored talent and brain watched people with BS fabricated artists such as Britney Slut.

    Only extremely few talented artists made it during the 20th century. You see if they had left people experience real talent people would have just laughed at all this crap and disco and rap and others non-senses and bough nothing.

    • Ven

      “The 20th century sucked however. Most everything was crap, the painting the sculpting the music, the architecture even though new technologies appear.”

      Entirely subjective analysis. Great composers, rock & roll, all the stirring film, as well as the integration of technology further into the artistic arena. The 20th century has been one of the best centuries for art (in my opinion). Just as many (if not more) extremely talented artists had the opportunity to succeed here.

      Of course, I only have my opinions. Except, I do have one piece of logical evidence: the orchestras are dying. Even though some of the greatest composers of all time write the stuff, people won’t pay to go see it. They still line up for Britney though….

      My point is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and this is what people like. The industries have simply done their research, and provide new material for people of a wide demographic to enjoy. I personally don’t care for much of it, but I can easily avoid what I dislike and find what I do like.

  • Guest

    @ “Christian Ross”

    “are you getting paid for writing those lines ? Do you think I should pay you in case I use your idea ? How much do you think it is worth ? ”

    Ha! A paid corporate troll!

    Since you are there tell your boss that we are going to kill them all!

  • http://www.wetgenes.com/ XIX

    So what you are saying is that the copyright industry needs to learn from the bottled water industry and charge more for bits filtered by mountains and guaranteed 100% free of virii and other contaminants.

  • http://twitter.com/AlyssaBlindy Alyssa Blindy

    Yes, this completely makes sense. However, I do see how a lot of people, including myself, are willing to pay money to the artist for their media, as long as the following conditions are met:
    1. The artist gets most, or all of the compensation.
    2. The amount being paid is not a ridiculously high amount.
    Let’s take a look at a quick little table that I compiled in my mind.
    number of songs purchased when song costs 10 cents when song costs a dollar
    1 $.10 $1.00
    10 $1.00 $10.00
    100 $10.00 $100.00
    1000 $100.00 $1000.00
    10000 $1000 $10000

    This table must go through some people’s minds. They must think of what they are willing to pay for a song. Maybe, they are stuck in the 1900s with the copyright industry, trying to figure out what to pay, or maybe, they are trying to compensate the artist. Let’s look at two if then statements.
    if: People are stuck trying to pay the copyright industry:
    then:
    it is time for them to realize that copies are truly no longer commercialized.
    if: people are trying to figure out how to pay the artists what they deserve:
    then: That’s a great thing. However, for something which is free to copy, I do believe that that person should be able to choose how much money will go to the artist.
    however: What I see in our future is a compromise where you have to pay the artist an amount for listening to their music, however, I can imagine the copyright industry taking a fall.
    I am not sure this is definite, but it is an option.
    I hope this was somewhat insightful.
    Great article, and you are correct that the copy is no longer commercial.
    However, does that mean the artist does not deserve money for their work?
    If they do deserve money, should we be able to choose how much we are willing to pay them for their nonphysical production?
    If so, is this suggesting radical change to our economy, which is pretty irrational, unfortunately because we are mostly motivated by greed?
    They are great questions.
    Thanks for making my mind spin.
    I genuinely appreciate it; it is not sarcasm.

    • Ven

      I unfortunately disagree with some of what you’ve said Alyssa:

      “1. The artist gets most, or all of the compensation.”

      You have to realize that an artist gets 100% of the compensation for sales, but they have committed to paying this compensation back to those individuals and organizations that helped them arrive at the selling point in the first place. This would be no different than the artist getting 15.99 for an album sale, and then having to pay their manager/producer/label/publisher/publicity house/etc.

      If there was a law that said 100% of the wholesale price had to make it back to the artist, the only thing that would change is that the artist would then have to hire an accountant to cut checks to all the people with backside pay contracts. Less money that would all go through the same hands anyway.

      “2. The amount being paid is not a ridiculously high amount.”

      I also have to disagree here. There are some forms of music that are certainly cheaper to create than others, but the resulting value (X minutes of audible entertainment) is the same. If you want to hear something that took real financial investment to create you can, and you can be prepared to pay the resulting price for it. However, if you like cheaply-created content, you are able to find low-cost or free alternatives (like Jamendo and hundreds of other free music outlets).

      But in both cases you have to let the artists decide where they want their price point to fall in the market. It is illogical to decide that a techno artist shouldn’t be allowed to charge as much as an orchestra society because they didn’t invest as much.

      “However, does that mean the artist does not deserve money for their work?
      If they do deserve money, should we be able to choose how much we are willing to pay them for their nonphysical production?”

      If the law is to oblige artists with compensation, then it has to allow the artists to decide how they want to sell their art. There can be no legally-forced middle ground between free music that is donation supported and copyright holders controlling distribution.

      • Anonymous

        Not totally true because the artist will pay the needed ppl and not a oversized overpayed orginasation.

        It will also be better pay for the ppl doing the real work.

        I know more about gaming and look into why the developer GRIN went under.
        It was because a big company Square/Enix decided to not pay for the work and thats what it is. The companys take all cred and profit where they are able and dont give a damn if they can get away with it.

        As said above the worst is that they don´t understand that every time they try with rootkits or ridicules DRM protections they pushed me the other way.

        The new thing they do at least in the gaming industry is I dont even own what I but but they don´t lower the price so I still pay full price but when I sell it to you they also want a fee from you and push me further away.

        They are just old ppl without any new ideas and try to hold on to a old way.
        If all acted like them we would still live in caves.

        When Napster and their likes first surfaced the labels should bought it and used it becasue ppl liked to have music easy to get and great to chose which songs I want and not have to buy a whole record which they dont want me to be able to pick songs from and put unto my own mix cd.

  • http://www.jveweb.net/en/ jvalenciae

    I agree with this post, and Creative Commons is a great idea.

    Here is the thing, if people appreciate what you are doing, whether is writing, singing, acting, drawing, photographing, they will show you support, not all of them, and the support doesn’t always come in a monetary way, but, people will make you feel that what you are doing is valued. Even I, not having a huge or popular website feel the support in the way of e-mails and being linked from other sites.

    Art is a form of personal expression, not a product. We as humans have a need, a desire, of express ourselves, and just because some things are not highly marketed and commercially exploited, it doesn’t mean that nothing outside the media industry is created. I follow some independent artists, and in many cases what they produce is of much higher quality that what we are feed through radio and television (and of course a lot of it, well, lets say I wasn’t the audience it was intended for).

    So anyway, this is a new world, full of endless possibilities, and it doesn’t matter what roadblocks the old industries create, we will bypass them, I for once will create what I can create, and share it.

    • Anon

      “Art is a form of personal expression, not a product.”

      Untrue, jvalenciae, the two are not nor where they ever mutually exclusive.

      When a photographer takes a digital portrait, they print and sell the prints. A writer writes a book and sells copies of that book. You can pass and not purchase of course, if you choose, but there’s a price to possess your own copy.

      A painter makes copies in the form of lithographs sold through galleries, also for a price. A sculptor makes the original and sells bronze castings through their agent, also for a price. A musician writes a song and sells the copies for a price. So does a movie maker. Even dancers sell dvd and videotape copies when they cannot perform live. Every one of these instances is a form of artistic personal expression and every one is a valid example of the product they have to sell in the marketplace for a price. You have the right to ignore the product if you do not wish to fund it or to purchase it if you want to possess a copy, but making an unlawful copy will always feel like stealing to an artist who produces it with intent to sell those copies for their living. That instinct is every bit as “human nature” as sharing things that never belonged to you in the first place.

      So the idea that a digital artist like a writer or a musician should be “shared” but an analog artist like that sculptor or painter must be paid for a copy because you can’t make it yourself with digital tech is an arbitrary and disrespectful distinction only pirates make, it’s the lie upon which your entire argument is based.

      People of integrity understand it’s about possessing copies of the art itself regardless of the format and fair compensation for creative work will only become a tipjar or “ability to pay” in fairness when EVERYONE is compensated this way for whatever service or product is the basis of their living. Until all pirates also work for voluntary tips it’s common sense to expect lawful resistance to your digitally forced inequity. And you should be glad, jvalenciae, you are apparently able to eat your emails and live under a roof of your links.

      • Anon2

        Yes, possession of a copy is really the point. Did the artist who created the content intend to give it to you for free? Probably not. Most inventions and creations come from the fact that the person who came up with the idea has a mortgage to pay.

        Now, if I purchased a record, audio tape, 8-track, laser disk, VHS or Beta in the past, should I now have to pay to obtain a digital copy of that same work?

        • Anonymous

          Of course you should “have to pay.” Does buying a paperback book suddenly entitle you to a digital copy of it? Or a hardback? Or an digital audio copy for listening in the car?

          It’s all the same content, right?

          This sense of entitlement to free merchandise is the basis for all this law enforcement and loss of privacy and growing punishment in the past few years. When people return to 1) choosing to do without or 2) paying for the various versions of the products they want, the law can back off. Until then, the pirate mentality of “everything FREE for ME screw YOU” will lead us to fewer and fewer freedoms. It’s happening right now and truly, the pirates value the free goods over the freedoms themselves. It’s so uneducated it’s pathetic.

        • Anonymous

          @ Anon

          You seem hellbent on blaming loss of freedoms on “pirates”. When that is not the case. People have been steadily losing their freedoms (here in the U.S. at least) for going on 10 years now. It has nothing to do with piracy. It has more to do with terrorism. The loss of privacy is directly attributable to terrorism, well it is for those without any biased viewpoints. Patriot Act. It was around before the sudden burst of IP protection laws and what have you. And as long as people are acting like sheeple, and willing to trade their freedoms and rights for safety, things will keep on going as is. You can blame piracy all you want, doesn’t make it the real culprit. Things changed in 2001, not for the better. The boogeyman is responsible for your loss of freedoms. And the boogeyman is terrorism. Throw that word around and you can violate all kinds of laws currently in place for “the sake of national security”, throw it around some more and you can take away Constitutionally protected rights and freedoms. Etc etc etc.

        • Anonymous

          @Electric

          TOTALLY FABRICATED, false. NICE TRY.
          Napster launched in 1999 two years before 9/11 and the crackdown towards online surveillance began almost immediately to try to stem the tide of stolen files. You whine that you don’t want to be grouped with piracy while you defend it and you have no facts at hand, just sad attempts at fabricating a false version of history. You are part of the uneducated Electric, you SHOULD be worried. Read a book for God’s sake and learn something.

        • Walter Myier

          I agree with you. I believe an artist should be payed for his product, but when you have paid, you should be entitled to enjoy that product on all new medium, after all the product has not changed only the delivery method.

        • Anonymous

          How is what I said false? The Patriot Act has been eroding at freedoms since it’s inception. While Napster did launch in 1999, no one is denying otherwise, that isn’t the cause of the erosion of freedoms in general. No, the War on Terror is the cause of that. Hence the surveillance, the warrantless searches and seizures, the censorship of some sites that advocate speaking out about the war on terror, etc. There are tons of things that happened because of the Patriot Act and the War on Terror. Piracy is a separate issue, and the only freedoms being eroded by that, are ISPs can monitor what you do online and the whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing that they use to extort people and try and get them to agree to settlements.

          And no one is defending piracy. I know that in my previous comment I did not. I merely said you were wrong at laying the loss of freedoms in general at piracy’s feet. Also, you say I have no facts, but do you? I’ve yet to see you cite any source directly attributing the massive loss of freedoms to piracy. Oh, wait. I know what this is. Your “I can’t find proof, thus I’m right” approach. Followed by the “anything you say that contradicts me needs to be verified, and if you can’t find proof, that means your wrong and I’m right, as per the norm” thing. I see, so you’re a hypocrite, still. You want facts but you give none, besides your tired old rhetoric. Followed by resorting to insults because someone dares question you or say you’re wrong.

          Also, I’m not part of the uneducated. I have an education. And one of the things I’ve been doing since I was 4 is reading books. Tons of books. I have an entire room in my home filled with nothing but books. On a variety of subjects. Fiction, nonfiction, etc.

        • Ven

          No, you are free to copy those same works for personal use, as long as the copy is of one of the physical copies you posses.

          They continue to improve sound/video quality, and then release it to the public. If you are happy with the sound quality of your cassettes, you are free to back them up onto any medium you choose (for personal use).

          But something tells me that most file-sharers don’t like vinyl/cassette/8-track audio and VHS/laser-disk or even DVD video, for the same reasons they complain about lack of high-quality digital offerings from Itunes and Amazon.

        • AnonYoureAWanker

          @ Anon

          You’re a fucking idiot. You are aware you don’t have to pay if you copy a CD you own to your computer right? Same goes when you transfer it to your iPod. Ditto for movies. You can rip your DVDs to your computer. You don’t have to pay for a new copy. It’s considered fair use.

          Also, after reading what both you and electric_worry wrote, I decided to look around online. I took the lazy way out and ended up on Wikipedia, because it made the top of the search. And many freedoms and problems over the use and invocation of the Patriot Act have been happening/found.

          Controversial invocations of the USA PATRIOT Act
          https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Controversial_invocations_of_the_USA_PATRIOT_Act

          I am however unable to find ANY information regarding Napster and the loss of individual rights and freedoms brought about by Napster. NO INFORMATION WHATSOEVER TO SUGGEST NAPSTER IS THE REASON PEOPLE ARE LOSING THEIR RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS. It seems to me like the one saying false things here is you sir (or ma’am).

          I’m sorry, but your clearly biased viewpoints is seriously detrimental to this thread as a whole. Not only are you making completely untrue claims, you are also insulting others just because they disagree with you. You’re acting like a child. All the while, you present nothing to support your wildly inaccurate and distorted version of “history”. You’re free to do that, make wild claims, but don’t try and pass them off as facts when they are obviously nothing but your personal opinions. We’re all entitled to those. But if evidence is present that proves you wrong, and you continue stating the same thing, you only make yourself look like an idiot. Which in my opinion, I think you are. A fucking idiot, that is.

        • Scary Devil Monastery

          “Until then, the pirate mentality of “everything FREE for ME screw YOU” will lead us to fewer and fewer freedoms. It’s happening right now and truly, the pirates value the free goods over the freedoms themselves. It’s so uneducated it’s pathetic.”

          Typical trolling bs. We accept that crimes of murder, robbery, assault and drug dealing may not all be solved because we have those petty things called “civil rights” in the way. That’s more or less what distinguishes a civilized society from barbarism.

          No doubt there will be some idiots – a great many – who want freedoms stripped down because people exchange copies of information with one another. Here’s some news for you though – those restrictions won’t affect anyone who knows how to set up or use a darknet and thus no pirates at all will be affected.

          Ordinary people who don’t fileshare are the ones who will suffer from increased surveillance and restrictions as collateral damage. And there’s no way in hell you will peddle to the public a view of having to monitor every communication on the internet just because person A sent a copy of a file to person B.

          It’s a nice straw man you place there though – fully comparable to the argument that it’s all right for you to beat your wife since she won’t stop nagging.

      • TheMAXX

        I guess most people have integrity then since people who pirate the most also buy the most media according to many large studies. This built in need to share means that people will pay as much as they feel they can for the media they consume.

        I would also like to point out that even if I buy a print of a painting it does not mean that I paid the same as everyone else who possesses a print of that painting. Is the person who paid less not a moral person? What if the person who paid the most bought it second hand and the artist will get none of that money. Does that mean that the person who paid the most is moral or immoral? I would propose that it does not matter how much you pay for media you consume or keep, what matters is that you give credit to the artist and share as much as you can with anyone who needs and asks for your help. An artist wants others to share their experience and they will only count on receiving as much money as they are paid upfront or as much as they can hope to get from selling as many copies as possible. They can never count on making money from other people’s copies although it may help with spreading the word about their art.

        I think it would be wrong for others to make a profit from copies of your art but that is not a situation that anyone is arguing over. If no profit is made which is the case with most copying I cannot see how that could be wrong in any moral sense since giving things to others is a trait to be encouraged and the same trait which leads to more money going to the artist.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000345113163 Neal Bhalodia

    angry disbelief at the fact that people will still pirate to a large extent, even if the price per copy is under one dollar. The other is a deep research report into why people ignore the copyright monopoly. Short answer: because it is human nature to share.” /> lol look at the top of this page

  • Anonymous

    This makes a lot of sense dude, wow.
    net-privacy.us.tc

  • bob@gmail.com

    Majority of the time it looks to me like it’s human nature to share when it benefits the one sharing, bumping up their ratio is a prime example.
    Trying to silver-tongue the fact that people like to get things as close to free as possible is never going to fly regardless of how you paint it.

    When I see breakdowns of WB’s costs and how it reckons it loses on films that break the box office records then I have no qualms.
    However when I see people pirating ‘pay what you want’ setups then yeah, I do disagree.

  • Abby

    The cost of the original work has to be factored into the copies, based on how many you can expect to sell. If we could use donation models as a proxy for ability to pay and still make enough money to continue to produce the products at the same quality level that would be ideal – but as it stands I’ve never seen a broadcast TV show that was made entirely in this way, not even the ones that are 90% YouTube clips.

  • Anonymous

    What made iTunes successful wasn’t the low cost per track/album, or that it offered legit copies, it was the one-click purchase that made it easier than piracy (especially for non-techies). The author hit the idea of work for value on the head, but when I have to hunt for a song to download that is another kind of work. Apple minimized my work which balances the value equation.

    • Ven

      While I believe strongly that all digital content should be under some kind of abadonware laws, it is unfair to steal merely because stealing is easier than actually finding what you desire legitimately.

      It’s like people who would shoplift not because they couldn’t afford it, but because the checkout line was too long to wait in.

      • Anonymous

        I wasn’t condoning theft, just stating a fact. Mugging an old lady in the street and padding an insurance claim are both illegal and forms of theft, but the social stigma and chances of getting caught vary hugely. Many perceive piracy to be a ‘victimless crime’. In many circles it isn’t condemned, in some it’s even admired. And the chances of a small-scale pirate getting prosecuted are minuscule, particularly if they don’t upload. In the absence of a real threat of punishment and significant social stigma, the ‘work’ required becomes a critical factor in the decision.

        • Ven

          I agree with what you are saying regarding social norms, but I don’t think popular opinion (ignorant or otherwise) is the solution we should really look to in this day and age of reason. People are always going to pirate, but that truth shouldn’t affect law-making in any way.

        • http://tinyurl.com/ANoiXioNA-personal-info ANoiXioNA

          @ ven /

          Like the fact that…… Fileshares “pirate” WORTHLESS information…….

          that truth shouldn’t affect law-making in any way.

        • Ven

          @ANoiXioNA

          Digital information is only worthless under certain definitions, much like string theory says that humans are made of energy. We have yet to see a definitive argument against the value of digital information, and I don’t think we will ever see one that convinces the majority. If we do, the content creators will go back to analog distribution and abandon the digital realm altogether.

          If you do not believe that digital content has value, look at nations with laws that reflect that: you will find the majority of their successful content creators have either built themselves a business plan to circumvent the issue, or concurrently do business overseas where they can turn a calculated profit. In the case of music, many artists simply work overseas for months at a time.

      • Scary Devil Monastery

        *beeep*

        Except, Ven, that copyright infringement isn’t “stealing”. The only way you can link copying to theft is if you pull up the “lost sale” argument which has been debunked extensively time after time after time.

        • Mr Angry

          “Except, Ven, that copyright infringement isn’t “stealing”. The only way you can link copying to theft is if you pull up the “lost sale” argument which has been debunked extensively time after time after time.”

          I’m sorry Scary Devil Monastery but your assertion is patently not true.

          If you take the time to read it you’ll find that the Theft Act covers “intangible goods” when referencing “Property”.

          “Property”.(1) “Property” includes money and all other property, real or personal, including things in action and other intangible property.

          Effectively the only argument that is debunked is the nonsensical notion that 1′s and 0′s do not constitute “property” when clearly (in law) they do.

          Over to you – crazy kids.

        • Ven

          I’m not sure about what Mr. Angry wrote, but copyright infringement denies the rights holder the ability to choose how their work is distributed. If you wish to distribute your works for profit, some nations are better than others.

          And those are generally the nations that have the largest population of content creators.

        • Scary Devil Monastery

          @Ven
          “…copyright infringement denies the rights holder the ability to choose how their work is distributed…”

          Certainly true. Unavoidably so. And that still isn’t “theft”. The problem here is how you can make a set of data that has been widely publicized exclusive in replication. The short answer is that you can not. The law is irresponsible, impossible to enforce, and irrelevant in a way which makes the US prohibition laws look proportionate and sound.

          The same way the Soviet Union couldn’t keep research data secret while at the same time trying to gain the laurels for being the inventors of the tokamak coil, for instance.

          Any information made public is no longer controllable. That there is a law against “infringement” may be considered silly by many (including me) and gain little respect, but the violation of that law is in no way “theft”, nor comparable to it.

          You can only invoke the “lost sale” here in which case you’re actually trying to build a case against the effect of modern technology which you have already lost. Ah. And a case which has been thoroughly debunked to boot.

        • Ven

          @Scary Devil Monastery

          Theft (in criminal law) is defined as: “The illegal taking of another person’s property without that person’s freely-given consent.”

          Distribution rights are in fact a part of those intangible goods in property law that Mr Angry pointed out. So when you share my copyrighted works, you are in fact illegally (in the contradiction of law) taking my property without my consent.

          So copyright infringement not covered under fair use is, in fact, theft.

          “The problem here is how you can make a set of data that has been widely publicized exclusive in replication.”

          It’s true that digital rights management is one of the hardest laws to enforce, but that doesn’t have any bearing on it’s legality. The law is not impossible to enforce, like all laws it is impossible for it to be enforced perfectly. Drivers speed every day, folks still try to cheat the IRS out of tax money, but the logic behind those laws is why we continue to attempt to enforce them. Now if you had arguments against copyright in general that is a different matter, but at no point should sound laws be rendered void because they are not easily enforced.

          “Any information made public is no longer controllable.”

          And I guess this is the statement we disagree upon. Public information has been successfully controlled for centuries. Only my opinion, but I do not believe the internet will change that. Or I should say, I don’t believe society will allow the internet to change that.

    • Scary Devil Monastery

      …and thus, with iTunes, Apple converted the “sale of songs” to a “sale of a service” model.

      Since given competition by Spotify. Really, it’s not rocket science. People will pay in order to save themselves effort.

      • Ven

        I read an article this morning: http://www.mosesavalon.com/mosesblog/83/music-business/the-drm-manifesto/

        Now I don’t agree with much of what he says or the tin-foil hat he must be wearing, but he does raise an interesting thought I hadn’t considered before: that there are tech companies that support the free sharing of digital information because it benefits their revenue. He points to Apple as an example, that Itunes basically operates “at cost” and the profit is made in the hardware.

        Before now, I had never considered that file-sharing supporters could be in it for the bottom line.

        Just an interesting thought.

        • Scary Devil Monastery

          “Before now, I had never considered that file-sharing supporters could be in it for the bottom line.”

          Um. This is new? I have some other news for you in that case. Once all the tallies are totalled, the energy companies gain 15% of the revenue gained of every media stream, just out of the electricity used.

          Some file-sharing supporters would no doubt be in it for the bottom line. In a free market, any service will be paid for.

          I’d also be interested to know how you actually define the “bottom line”. For a corporation it’s money. What was the motivation of Bram Cohen (designer of the bittorrent protocol), Linus Torvald (who designed linux), or Jon Lech Johansen (who decrypted the content scrambled system because he wanted to watch his DVD’s on a linux OS)?

          I’ll give you a hint – all of them had a bottom line. It wasn’t (directly) money. It was time. You want to do something on a computer and you have the skills, you invent the way to do it. And millions prosper because one hobbyist decided to sit down and crack a tough nut on his own, because he had a personal reason to do so.

    • Scary Devil Monastery

      …and thus, with iTunes, Apple converted the “sale of songs” to a “sale of a service” model.

      Since given competition by Spotify. Really, it’s not rocket science. People will pay in order to save themselves effort.

  • Demath

    The author of this article did not answer a question on how people will make money out of their creativity.
    To create a modern game a team of 100 is needed. Add to this voice actors and freelancers and so called AAA costs few millions to make. If nobody buys final product (and why should they? If sharing is common and everyone does it nobody pays for the product then) nobody invests their money in making one.
    Non mega titles would not be made either. Terraria, indie game made by small group of friends almost bankrupted them. If they could not sale the game via steam they would never release the game.
    So gaming would be back to flash games found on newsgrounds.
    Movies… how many home made movies are really worth watching? Some youtube videos are fun, some are great. Don’t really compare to the traditional cinema. And not talking about summer blockbusters but even Donnie Darko required investment of money with hope it will make it back. Also many actors do non-profit movies, get paid little in theaters because they get paid big bucks in big movies.
    No sales of dvd, nobody goes to cinema = home made movies on youtube.
    Music is a bit easier to make via home so songs and even great ones still will appear. Just that no music videos for practically all of the artists, no concerts besides in local park…
    Books? King doesnt get a penny, King doesn’t write.

    No money being made by media industry results in death of creativity as people creative would have to waste their time on other jobs only to support themselves and their families.

    At finish note I would like to point out that practically all art was done for profit. Mona Lisa was painted at a request. David was made at a request. Mozart performed because he was paid to write songs, he was paid to give concerts…
    People were creative because they could support themselves with their creative work. Otherwise it is just a hobby.

    • Anon

      “Would the Bard Have Survived the Web? Money changed everything.”
      Published by the NewYorkTIMES : February 14, 2011

      “When William Shakespeare was growing up in rural Stratford-upon-Avon, carpenters at that East London site were erecting the walls of what some consider the first theater built in Europe since antiquity. Other playhouses soon rose around the city. Those who paid could enter and see the play; those who didn’t, couldn’t.

      By the time Shakespeare turned to writing, these “cultural paywalls” were abundant in London: workers holding moneyboxes stood at the entrances of a growing number of outdoor playhouses, collecting a penny for admission.

      At day’s end, actors and theater owners smashed open the earthenware moneyboxes and divided the daily take. From those proceeds dramatists were paid to write new plays. For the first time ever, it was possible to earn a living writing for the public.

      Money changed everything. Almost overnight, a wave of brilliant dramatists emerged, including Christopher Marlowe, Thomas Kyd, Ben Jonson and Shakespeare. These talents and many comparable and lesser lights had found the opportunity, the conditions and the money to pursue their craft.
      The stark findings of this experiment? As with much else, literary talent often remains undeveloped unless markets reward it.”

      • Scary Devil Monastery

        And you’ll note that even today when we have the internet, the same model applies.

        Or are you saying that Andrew Lloyd Webber’s productions running on broadway are somehow failing?

    • Ven

      “Music is a bit easier to make via home so songs and even great ones still will appear.”

      I agree with everything else you’ve said. This quote however, is incorrect.

      Movies can run budgets of 500 million dollars, or below $10,000. Of course, you will never see a Michael Bay money-shot movie on that low budget, but good films could still be made under these limitations.

      Music is the same way: yes, a few hundred dollars can give us Youtube artists, crappy rock and pop bands, and the like. A few thousand dollars can get you into competition with small, demo-punching studios. But there are many kinds of music (imo the best kinds) that require dozens of performers, hundreds of hours of engineering time, and people to keep it all organized.

      - Orchestras require over 100 employees to function. Those employees all have college/graduate degrees in what they do.
      - Engineering is a science, not a hobby. To say that software can take the place of a skilled technician is untrue. They are also expensive, and the work they do is time consuming: CLA mixed for My Chemical Romance, and he was handed 160 track stems for a single song. With an assistant, that album took him several weeks to mix.
      - Without monetary compensation, the educations have no value. Self-taught becomes the only method.

      Without money involved, a great deal of artistic decay comes to pass. I have several thousands of dollars worth of gear sitting behind me. If I thought there was no money in music, I would still make music. But instead of investing time and money into my trade, I would have honed my campfire song skills to get me laid instead.

      We would live in a world where acoustic pop and poor electronic music would be the only real survivors, and I really don’t want to live in that world.

      • Jon7272

        the thing is if nobody made movies anymore ,nobody made tv shows anymore ,music any more, i could safe money no need for speakers, tvs , amps, pcs ,dvd players ,blueray players, terrabites of portable hard drives, pay tv subscriptions, xboxs, playstations ,wii ,my god ill be rich , the downside is ill be very bored lol

      • Scary Devil Monastery

        “We would live in a world where acoustic pop and poor electronic music would be the only real survivors, and I really don’t want to live in that world.”

        Tell that to the guy who put “Phantom of the Opera” or “Starlight Express” on broadway. No, seriously…I get where your anticipatons come from but the future isn’t quite that bleak. As long as there is an audience willing to listen and pay for entrance there will be great music.

        The Britney Spears and American Idols will be an endangered species. future Mick Jaggers, Trent reznors and Beethovens will prosper as they always have.

        • Ven

          The shows may get better. They could get worse if venue owners realize they control the one market performers have for their trade. We already see this now, where venues charge the bands to play. With rising prices, touring won’t even make enough money for gas to the next show. Venues also commonly take a percentage of merch sales, and that percentage would most likely go up.

          Basically, venues become the new labels that control entertainment, all packaged as a service. They would lobby to restrict who can get permits for live entertainment, offer to plug bands through the network of gigs for 90% of the cash plus recoup fees, and fight to get cammers the death penalty.

          But what I sincerely fail to see in a performance-based future is how culture is better developed, shared, and archived. And BTW, Mick Jagger and Trent Reznor both spent over a decade as labeled artists.

          As for Beethoven, I think Wikipedia nails it:

          “While Beethoven earned income from publication of his works and from public performances, he also depended on the generosity of patrons for income, for whom he gave private performances and copies of works they commissioned for an exclusive period prior to their publication.”

          So basically he performed, sold his works publicly, and sold them privately before publication (withholding distribution rights for himself).

      • Josh C

        I love how you assume that good music is only made for profit, but hey, I’m just a stupid 17 year who only writes bad pop music… I wouldn’t know XD

        • Ven

          There are forms of music (including the technically complex) that require millions of dollars to make happen.

          You are a teenage pop writer, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, without money being considered, you will never be able to receive a doctorate’s level of instruction in an instrument, or composition, or theory. Doing that yourself, you will find it hard to spend several thousand dollars on your instrument. You also find it near impossible to find other musicians at your level, an acoustically pleasing building to play in, and tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment to play through and record on. You also will not find skilled engineers to make the equipment work well.

          The industry brings wider purpose to the education, which is how we get away from recycled popular music of all genres. If you believe you can find this quality in artists who have never made profit nor wanted profit for their work, I would like to see it.

    • Ven

      “Music is a bit easier to make via home so songs and even great ones still will appear.”

      I agree with everything else you’ve said. This quote however, is incorrect.

      Movies can run budgets of 500 million dollars, or below $10,000. Of course, you will never see a Michael Bay money-shot movie on that low budget, but good films could still be made under these limitations.

      Music is the same way: yes, a few hundred dollars can give us Youtube artists, crappy rock and pop bands, and the like. A few thousand dollars can get you into competition with small, demo-punching studios. But there are many kinds of music (imo the best kinds) that require dozens of performers, hundreds of hours of engineering time, and people to keep it all organized.

      - Orchestras require over 100 employees to function. Those employees all have college/graduate degrees in what they do.
      - Engineering is a science, not a hobby. To say that software can take the place of a skilled technician is untrue. They are also expensive, and the work they do is time consuming: CLA mixed for My Chemical Romance, and he was handed 160 track stems for a single song. With an assistant, that album took him several weeks to mix.
      - Without monetary compensation, the educations have no value. Self-taught becomes the only method.

      Without money involved, a great deal of artistic decay comes to pass. I have several thousands of dollars worth of gear sitting behind me. If I thought there was no money in music, I would still make music. But instead of investing time and money into my trade, I would have honed my campfire song skills to get me laid instead.

      We would live in a world where acoustic pop and poor electronic music would be the only real survivors, and I really don’t want to live in that world.

    • TheMAXX

      Anyone can get any digital media for free right now! Digital media still makes more than it ever has before. No one is talking about all media being free, merely that getting the law involved in non profit sharing is pointless and inhuman. The genes that encourage sharing and energy conservation is also why most will pay for worthwhile media if it is easily available even though they could get it for free. Discouraging positive human traits like sharing is not a good idea for anyone especially artists who rely on that very trait for their survival.

  • Foff

    I really don’t know what this article is trying to say. Money is definitely the issue. I recently downloaded a golf video. That same video retails for $59. Boy am I glad I did not buy it. Not that it was bad it just contained nothing that several other DVD’s that cost $10.00 have. Intellectual property is way overvalued. Every few years a new author comes along and writes a book on success that regurgitates that same crap that hundreds of authors previous to this one have already written about. So what is the true value of what that guy is selling and how much of the intellectual property in his book is really his? The Harry Potter series that has done so well contains many elements from other books and stories. Not all the ideas in her books are her intellectual property in the first place.

    Intellectual property whether it is instructional or entertainment is a service. No one ever needs to go to a movie but they do because the theater provides the service of putting it on a huge screen. DVD’s and CD’s provided the service putting entertainment in a convenient form that is there on demand. Downloads and steaming are a much better service then DVD’s and CD’s which is why anybody that knows how to download and or stream does so.

    The point is not how much each song is worth but how much the service is worth. The entertainment industry cannot accept the fact that technology has made their service cheaper. Their model would be like Hewlett Packard trying to sell a four function calculator for $300 when you can get a cheap laptop for that. In other words the service does not fly and technology has forced HP to change and is forcing the industry to change albeit very very slowly.

    Most movies are crap stories with no truth and or no point they are simply a visual narcotic that detracts our minds from the real world for a time. The last movie I went to I enjoyed the time with my family much much more then the silly story on the screen. The movie was neither bad nor great but it was the service of providing family time in a nice environment with an experience not available at home that made the price worth it. At this I went in the afternoon when it was cheaper, so even for this service price is an issue.

  • LiveNTime

    10000 songs on an Ipod and then it falls in my drink. So it doesn’t work anymore. These Ipods really should allow for me to use a new Ipod and sync to the same Itunes Library. It is a lot of work putting 10000 songs on there.

    • Ven

      You can. The new Ipod merely needs to be reformatted to load only the library from your Itunes.

    • Ven

      You can. The new Ipod merely needs to be reformatted to load only the library from your Itunes.

  • Anonymous

    Yes humans have always created culture, but the movie Titanic with it’s 100′s of millions in budget and the work of hundres of people is not paintings in a cave. You must admit that not all creations are the same and that some simply cannot happen without monetary compensation as an influence. To have a truly cohesive arguments you must take into account this.

    • http://profiles.google.com/zerianis10 Christopher Kidwell

      Simply CANNOT happen? I think you go too far. The fact is that if everyone could get everything that they wanted in life without having to worry about money, there would STILL be people in the art and entertainment production category.

      Why? Because some people just like to act and don’t really care whether they are getting paid money or not if they already have a very good lifestyle…. they will just be more choosy and only act in productions that they feel are going to be successful and are well written.

      • Demath

        Hundreds of people worked directly on titanic. Indirectly? Thousands… maybe even tens of thousands.

        How?
        We have tens of actors, we have people who put on make up, director, writers, cameramen, cgi experts, cleaners, assistants. Basically all those people you see in the credits.
        Those are people who directly made the movie

        Indirectly we have people who built computers for cgi guys to work on, people who cut timber, people who made it into planks, people who transported it so carpenters can build a set, people who worked at a gas station when a film crew had to fill up the gastanks…

        All those people had to be paid. So without money it cannot be done. without 100M dollars big movies will not be made.

        So lets assume there is a rich person who shells out 100M cause he wants to see a movie about titanic. its not for profit.

        He still cannot make a movie like that because to make a big movie you need experienced people, special equipment, special organizations.

        Since people cannot profit from big movie everything needed to make one except good intentions will not be present.

        A painting in a cave is simple. You need one or two people and some paint. To make a big movie you need thousands things more.

        It simply cannot be done with companies not being able to make profit on movies.

        • http://profiles.google.com/zerianis10 Christopher Kidwell

          Notice that in my post, I was alluding to a world WITHOUT MONEY where people could get anything they wanted and where corporations (for profit, anyway) didn’t exist.

          Yes, things damned well could be done WITHOUT companies being allowed to ‘make a profit’ on things. Hell, our local community college does productions and guess what? They are pretty much just ‘break even’ things where what out comes back in as ticket sales.

          They still do it without needing to ‘make a profit’…. why can’t other people?

        • Guest108

          Haven’t you heard, they basically never make a profit on movies, thanks to “hollywood accounting”. Anyway, I say even if no movies were made ever again, that’s fine. We don’t build pyramids anymore either. We do need freedom of communication, as events in the middle east show. It disgusts me to see “artists” toadying up to the worst fascist scum, demanding that everyone in the world’s communications are monitored and censored, to uphold their petty little copyright monopolies. There are more important things.

        • Demath

          @Kidwell.

          World without money cannot exist. Maybe hundreds years from now… so using that as example is a bit pointless.
          And you cannot compare community college to a big movie. you have a dozen people working on a project. not hundreds of people. you have home made stuff, cameras
          nothing compared the quality of current movies

          @Guest108
          If you don’t want movies, you don’t want music, games, books… why do you pirate them?

        • StupidityRunsRampant

          @ Demath

          Guest108 made no mention of pirating anything. You’re making assumptions. Which is wrong. Just look for yourself. Go ahead. Reread what he wrote. Nowhere in his comment is it hinted at, insinuated, or even remotely stated that he pirates anything. If anything, from his comment, I gather he doesn’t care about movies. He can do without. I’m basing that off what he did ACTUALLY say. I believe you owe him (or her) an apology. For calling him a pirate, which you basically did. You made an assumption, which is readily determined to be incorrect.

        • Guest108

          I said “even if”, you moron. I don’t actually believe those things would actually go away without copyright monopoly law. Books and music were certainly produced before copyright law, they will be produced after we abolish it. I would expect the same to hold true for movies – and remember, a kid with a laptop and iphone can now do a better job than a movie studio of last century. Costs have fallen vastly.

          I actually mostly avoid pirating, because I believe it still helps support the scum to give them an audience (as shown by repeated research which shows pirates are the ones also mostly spending the money), and participating in a bittorrent swarm helps that, but I believe people have a right to exchange published information freely. If you don’t want something copied, keep it private.

          Believe me, if I actually thought pirating would destroy the current industry players, I’d be doing it nonstop.

        • Scary Devil Monastery

          “It simply cannot be done with companies not being able to make profit on movies.”

          Titanic was available on bittorrent a week after launch in any format and resolution you cared to mention. It still broke box office records. You seem to be rewriting history when you make a case for “Titanic” necessarily losing sales when in fact “Titanic” kept breaking box office revenues despite (or should that be because of) being the hottest torrent around at the time?

          Given empirical evidence unlimited torrenting didn’t really hurt either the production or recouped revenue of that production.

          So what you actually have done is shoot your own argument in the foot with the example you gave to back your diatribe.

  • http://www.facebook.com/eric.boehm Jack Murdock

    Please, let’s not be disingenuous. It was always about the money. If it was human nature to share, then why don’t these greedy pirates want to share in the support of a product that they enjoy? Because paying for something would mean a little self sacrafice. They would have to go to all the hard work of leaving their houses and opening their wallets.

    Also, the meaning of sharing in the pirate sense and and sharing as in the real meaning of the word differ on in one critical area.. or maybe a few. In the real world, you can’t share what isn’t yours. For example, you can share something that you bought, like a book or a DVD. When you are sharing it, you no longer have access to it, so there is also an element of selflessness. You are doing something for other people where are sacrificing for someone else’s good.

    Torrents on the other hand are completely different. While you are seeding, there is no sacrafice on your part. And please don’t tell me about bandwidth costs. Im talking about that which you are supposedly sharing. There is nothing stopping you from watching that movie that you are sharing until everyone on the swarm is also seeding it. Sharing is supposed to be a selfless act.

    Rick, if no one payed for that whisky which you love, how would would the creators continue their business? The creators of anything can’t continue to create anything if consumers don’t play their role.

    • Anon

      Rick doesn’t care about your whiskey analogies. He just wants to pass around the digital stuff that’s for sale to make it FREE for him like the rest of the pirates.

      • Anonymous

        Norway shooting: quote from Anders Behring Breivik’s online manifesto
        “Stealing [through online piracy] is bad, I admit, but then again, when you have devoted your entire life to a good cause you can allow yourself some naughtiness especially if it can contribute to conserve your funds, cough;).

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8657727/Norway-shooting-quotes-from-Anders-Behring-Breiviks-online-manifesto.html

        • Scary Devil Monastery

          And quoting a delusional mass murderer on piracy accomplishes…what, exactly?

          That’s just a feeble attempt at guilt-by-association in which case you seem to miss that Anders behring’s quote is in direct conflict with “pirate” dogma. As is most of his other agenda. On the contrary, he sounds a bit like the pro-copyright brigade on many levels with his views on information control.

          And you really have no shame either – Behring butchers close to a hundred teens in cold blood and two days after the fact you find that suitable fodder to grind your axe with? With all due respect, go f**k yourself.

    • TheMAXX

      The trait of sharing is the same trait that causes people to pay for stuff they value. Discouraging a positive trait is not a good way for media producers to make more money. Just because sharing on-line is more efficient than some other forms of sharing doesn’t mean it is a bad thing. If hear of a good idea it costs me nothing but a small amount of time to tell someone else about that idea which can then help them while it can still help me. While someone else may have discovered that idea to begin with I don’t think we should discourage the sharing of that idea because we would be discouraging people from helping each other which is a trait that has made us successful in an evolutionary sense like so many other social animals.

      People spend more today for media than they ever have before at the same time as it is easier than ever to get those things for free. This is not a coincidence as many studies have shown. In general the more a piece of media is shared the more money it will make and the people who share the most are also the people who buy the most. It makes sense when you realize the same trait that causes you to share a file will cause you to share your money.

    • Scary Devil Monastery

      If whisky could be indefinitely copied, rest assured that all it would take is for one enthusiast to create a perfect blend for the comparison to be the same.

      As is, your comparison – as usually – fails. Stop comparing physical goods in limited supply with copies of data in theoretically infinite supply.

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  • Stoicsentry

    If Pirates like to share, then why wouldn’t they “share” a measly $1 USD for a product they enjoy? Because it’s not about sharing, it’s about GREED! Plain and simple. The Pirates like to accuse developers of being greedy and they are probably right. Guess what? SO ARE YOU!

    If you don’t help to pay for art that you like, then be prepared for your favorite artists to get “real jobs” and then say goodbye to the titles that you enjoy.

    • Anon

      This makes far too much sense for the group here to grasp. lol

      • Benjamin Bookbinder

        lol, I can make some ridiculous claim, claim it factual, and add a few “lol”s between, doesn’t make it any less horeshit.

    • Anonymous

      And we all know that attending concerts and buying merchandise and various other things isn’t paying for the art we like. /s And that money isn’t money that goes directly to the artists we like. /s

    • Anonymous

      Isn’t it hypocritical for pirates to claim they pirate for no financial incentive when the fact remains that without stealing it, they’d be out a great deal of money to make the lawful purchases?

      Pirates have no integrity, they just want free products and they are willing to hack a wifi or spoof an id to get them. If that isn’t clear by now, pay closer attention. Everybody else sees this very clearly by now. GREED for FREE STUFF drives piracy.

      • RIAAtarded

        you’re under the assumption they’d purchase it in the first place and I think that ideal is a little misplace. I’m in both camps here I buy stuff and I pirate but their definition of piracy is outdated. I download my tv shows, why? Well I can have it within an hour in HD and commercial free. Now explain to me why downloading the torrent is piracy but TIVOing it is not? Both give me a digital copy which can be shared. How many guys have TIVOed the game because they were working or busy and had the guys over later to watch it? I see a movie on TV but I’ve missed the begin of it. No worries I can get it online, onDemand, timeshifted, HULU, etc. Fundamentally there is no difference I’m legally allowed to have a copy I pay huge amounts of coin to my ISP for ability to have their bundles.

        Then there is the issue on the media itself. Not sure how it is where you’re from but here media is the only thing I can think of you can’t return if you don’t like it. Movie, game, CD whatever you open it , say to yourself this isn’t what I expected or something I’ll like your stuck with it. Why should that be the case if I’m dissatisfied with anything else I can return it for a refund but not media. Let me tell you with the quality or lack there of being release these days I’d be returning a boatload of stuff if that option was available. Even when I do grab stuff you realize the volume of it I watch the first 5 minutes and delete because it is crap or it is a rehash of some old theme they are ruining. Ever further still I pay taxes on the blank media here strictly to cover piracy over top of all normal forms of taxation. They are also trying to make it law that circumventing the DRM will be a crime so ripping DVD or music to an HTPC, ipod etc will be illegal you’ll need to purchase it in other formats which is excessive control over a product they no longer own. I bought it so if i want to load the movies to my network for easy of use on any device in my how them use the DVD as a Frisbee that is my right. Now i’m reading that they want to extend this to include any type of protection at all. You end run it you a criminal. When I read that I looked around the house to see how many laws I’m now breaking if this foolishness goes through. I run dd-wrt routers, linux pc, xbox that hasn’t played a game it runs XBMC, rooted tablet for linux, all my media on a central server so the family can use it. They get their way my love of open source gets me 5-10 years in a little cell with a biker who finds me attractive… Bloody great.

        I got no issues with change unlike big business and they need to wakeup and realize the world isn’t what it use to be. Folks need to make their voices heard on the issue so they don’t push this crap through. Where the hell would disney be without all the public domain stuff they took and remade. No they are getting protection ramped up for that damn mouse to what 120 years? are you nuts? Laws should protect the people and everything I see those are just being eroded buy the guys with the money.

    • TheMAXX

      Studies show that the people who share the most media also buy the most media. There may be exceptions but several large studies have shown that sharing leads to more purchases as being the norm.

  • Yea

    I can see how in some cases it’s not about the money but the convenience, but at some point it is about the money. How many of you actually download something you enjoy and then go out and buy it? I suspect there is only one class of people who might do that within the torrenting community and the is EDM sites. Besides, as someone else pointed out — there was still a cost in initially producing whatever work it is that gets pirated, regardless of whether making a copy of that work once finished has zero cost.

    And that is where the revenue is lost — people who pirate things and then have no intention of supporting the work, artist, developers, etc. I’m perfectly accepting of people who want to check something out before they dump a bunch of money into it, but that is hardly the case.

    • TheMAXX

      Again, several major studies in several different countries including USA, Canada and Great Britain show that those who share the most media also buy the most media. The media that gets shared the most also sells the most. The same human trait that causes someone to go out of their way to share their own time and computer and bandwidth to create a virtual on-line library, communal-type situation will also cause the person to derive pleasure from parting with their hard-earned money to buy media that they could and are already set up to get for free.

  • Artivision

    Money is irrelevant!!! A society can live on without money (see zeitgeist for example)!!! Freedom is human right (1-life,2-freedom,3-equality)!!! Any copyright law, forbids people to do as pleases with any information available, so its against human rights!!! Any patent forbids people to re-invent something, so its the same!!! No one owns knowledge and information, not even if he is an inventor!!! Actually no one owns nothing except an asylum-home for a little time!!! And at the end humans don’t own the planet earth, so they don’t have the right to destroy it with bad use of resources!!! Someone told me one day: who are you to say how match an artist can gain from hes work? And i answer him: who are you to say that one person can have plenty and another dies from starvation? Regardless what you thing to deserve, you don’t have the right to have more than any one else!!! ?pportunity is not freedom, because its not for anyone, that means if one has it, another don’t!!! All the rest are very small reasons for some one to agree or not!!! I was born human and i will die as a human (with rights)!!!

    • Anonymous

      No doubt this will be well received when presented to the United Nations World Intellectual Property Organization. If they don’t just all get up and walk out, that is.

    • Anonymous

      If you don’t have the right to more than anyone else, then why are you using the internet? Most people around the world don’t have access to the internet. You have no right to be here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get out!

  • Interested reader #9

    @ starving artist:

    If you can’t make money at your chosen career, then perhaps you should find a different career. Who says that a musician or artist (or whatever field/career) should even exist as a money making venture.

    I’ll tell you who says that – the people who choose to buy or not to buy the product.

    It’s clear that there is a large demand for music, new or old, but that demand is at a VERY LOW price – which is clearly going to eventually leave a lot of starving artists – UNTIL those artists decide to stop making music. When enough of them stop making music, then demand (and consequent willingness to pay) will increase to some equilibrium.

    You mentioned sound engineers, of which I am one. I make exactly zero dollars a year doing sound engineering for my church. I once made a very little bit of money for a local band (and I’d note that the parents of the band members said that the band had never sounded as good as when I mixed them, but I digress. . .).

    I don’t ask/expect any money for doing my sound engineering, yet I still do it. I work as an attorney to make money. I would, indeed, starve if I were relying on sound engineering (in this part of the world) for my income.

    Another example in my life is soccer. I’m quite skilled compared to the average person, but, on the other hand, I’m not Leo Messi. I play and enjoy it, but no one is going to pay to see me play. Thus, I have another job.

    The only reason ANY paying job exists is because people are willing to buy the product. If people won’t buy, then the job will disappear (initially the wages will go down). You can cry, whine, get frustrated, whatever, but it doesn’t change the fact that none of us have any right to work a particular job to survive.

    If making music won’t pay sufficient to support you – for whatever reason – then get another job and make music for a hobby.

    I close by noting two things:

    1: Making music creates nothing of intrinsic value. A CD is not really USEFUL for anything other than being a coaster. Does the music on the CD provide pleasure to people? Yes, it often does (and I greatly enjoy it in most forms, just as I enjoy art and movies). However, if/when people in a country are poor, they will spend their money on food, shelter and clothing first, then other necessities and tools that will assist them in making money. Music and Movies and Art are entirely entertainment based and have no real practical value. As the economy gets worse, the profit from such entertainment will generally drop.

    2: Various industies have already more or less disappeared because of advancements and changing preferences of the consumer. An example is the piano industry, about which you can read here:

    http://mises.org/daily/3253

    Note on that article: Is it “bad” or “wrong” that 99% of people stopped buying pianos and instead started buying lower cost (and more versatile) electronic keyboards (or buying nothing of the sort at all)? Nope. It’s just the way things are. (I also note that one could argue that the keyboard companies “copied” the piano at a much lower cost, thereby killing the piano industry. My response would be, “so what?” Nothing is original – EVERYTHING is derivative… even led zeppelin’s music. see link below.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq5D43qAsVg

    • Ven

      Piano production in the U.S. failed because Japan made the cheap ones cheaper (as your link noted). More pianos are made now worldwide, the rest of the world just does it better or cheaper. But that is the fault of our government allowing our industries to be undercut, and has nothing to do with the advancement of technology driving whole industries extinct.

      “As the economy gets worse, the profit from such entertainment will generally drop.”

      Yes, we call those luxuries. And yes, the luxury industries do hurt in time of economic weakness. However they are luxuries and not necessities, meaning it is the consumer’s problem if they can’t afford them at the prices the content creators set. Currently, people are willing to buy the product. They don’t want to, but they choose it over multiple alternatives including competing artists who offer their work for free.

      The question here is whether or not sharing copyrighted works should be an allowed alternative. I think the answer should be no, because it is not necessary that the world denies distribution rights to those who spend time and money creating content.

  • Joe

    “People copy because they can, because it is associated with freedom and because it is in human nature to share.”

    I have been sharing for years, because I can and because its free, its got nothing to do with freedom, just the free price tag. So lets not pretent it is.

    I do have to ask the question;
    If everybody shared content, nobody bought it, where would the studios get the money to distibute their stuff. Musicians can get the stuff out themselves, they will be poor musicians, no 25,000 stadiums for them. And exactly how are Sony/Emi/Warner etc, going to recoup money to pay the actors to make the next blockbuster?

    Answers on a postcard please.

  • Pete

    What happened to the days where we made movies and plays and music just for the hell of it?

    • Ven

      You mean grade school?

      Seriously, almost all entertainment going back hundreds (and thousands) of years is paid for by someone. Used to be the rich would support a composer or recruit an artist for a painting, or the religions would use art as a part of their money-churning methods, etc.

      • Scary Devil Monastery

        “…or the religions would use art as a part of their money-churning methods, etc.”

        Most religions have traditionally used information control as their money-churning method. The distinction is…?

        Ah, yes. Only approved vendors may translate and copy the old and new testament…If you are going frm the 12th century when the copyright wars were “invented” in the first place.

  • Anonymous

    While I agree with much of your sentiment your liberal and inappropriate use of the word monopoly entirely undermine the point.

    Comparing Human creativity to water ignores the fact that water is a naturally occurring compound whereas human creativity requires the creative human to expend time and energy creating. Time and energy that would have been consumed in some form of survival activity like hunting, gathering or working in order to pay somebody else to do that for them.

    If we want to continue enjoying the abundant creation and availability of music, art and literature we all have to acknowledge the need of the artist to sustain themselves in a modern world.

    Historically the industries that sprang up around creative people did provide some benefits. They would give artists an advance to sustain them during the creation of that work, they provided a means to make people aware of the work by promotion and they invested large amounts in the duplication and distribution of the work.

    Now technology has outgrown the need for many of the services that music labels for example provided and they aren’t going to disappear quietly. Digital copying removes the need for mass production of the work and social tools aid discovery where marketing previously played a role. But we are still left with two remaining aspects that can’t be dismissed with a naieve “copying is free” argument. Distribution and the artist making a living.

    Going back to your analogy. People pay for bottled water because it is convenient and of a known quality. I still pay for water out of the tap at home but substantially less. I also pay extra for the convenience of grabbing a bottle at any corner store. Likewise as a consumer I will happily pay for conveniently grabbing some new music from iTunes or play digital etc rather than mess around with torrents that may or nay not be exactly to the standard or even the item I expected.

    Your argument conveniently ignores the artist as it is the hardest part of the currently unsolved equation and always has presented a dilemma. I am sure all of us at some time have stopped to enjoy a street performance. There is no agent, production or distribution here but when confronted with a performer you enjoy the music of you move in closer until you are not just engaged with the performance you also know there will be a hat there inviting you to pay something after all the artist has to earn a living. If you aren’t that into the performance you pass by. If you like what you are witnessing you can’t help but engage with the concept of value and either put something in the hat or feel like you’ve cheated the artist a little. But at least you have thought about that choice.

    What you ignore is the convenience of global digital distribution makes it so easy to stop, listen and share that experience with anybody else on the planet without ever needing to engage in thinking about the value of that art to you. Without thinking about what it costs the artist to continue creating that art because you can hide behind the anonymity if the Internet. Would you ever think of going up to a street performer, sticking a mic in front of them then walking away without putting your hand in your pocket and distributing that copy to all and sundry? It still costs you nothing to make that copy but the act of looking the performer in the eye makes you behave differently.

    The argument that copying costs nothing is as weak as the music industries stance that labels deserve a percentage of everything an artist creates. They are both arguments that are designed to justify a behavior rather than find a new way to ensure artists can continue making a living while creating works that are instantly available everywhere.

    No I don’t think the concept of copyright is viable or enforceable in the modern age but it’s original purpose should not be ignored.

    If you listen to music, go to gigs or the theatre or read books would you rather have those experiences or would you rather the artist earned a living another way and forego the experience.

  • motozero

    The old model to make money off music may not work, and I think this could be a good thing because the music industry as a whole sucks right now. The greed seeps all over the music. Money used to be an after effect of something magical that sent a message. Now money sucks in general so to make it the goal, makes you suck. Anti money is so hot right now.

  • StevO

    1. 99 cents isnt cheap for a song. if the CD has 15 songs, thats 15 bux. Thats the price of a HARD copy at a store with its overhead added in.
    2. Digital information WAS supposed to be cheap. Now it is not. All they have done is make that information MORE expensive after all the TAX dollars spent on research.
    3. I remember.

    • Guest

      Best comment, sir.

    • Ven

      But here’s the thing: the industry is not obligated to pass savings on to customers. In many cases, labels still charge breakage on digital sales (an amount to cover damaged copies that have to be refunded) even though it’s impossible for a digital copy to break. Some artists got smart and work that garbage out of their contracts. Some don’t.

      As an unsigned artist, I can throw music up on Itunes for 30 cents a song. That is phenomenal when you consider the implications of having music sold on an international platform. If you hate the labels don’t buy their music, but please continue supporting online stores that can really profit independent artists.

  • Heryng

    I am an artist and I think this article borders on lunacy. I won’t go into the kind of art I produce as that would be irrelevant.

    The water analogy used in the article is ridiculous. A better one would be the world’s water is contaminated, a company makes clean water and sells it at a price, but somebody takes a bottle, figures out a way to replicate the molecular structure of the clean water and then gives it away to anyone who wants it. Actually, even more accurate would be to say that the person uses a method created by someone else to replicate the formula for clean water and then give it away.

    But even ^that^ analogy is ridiculous as you can’t compare music or film or any other kind of art to a life-sustaining substance. As it happens, you pay for water and food now, but you don’t have to. Feel free to go and live on a self-sustaining farm. Grow your own veg, raise livestock, get water from a well. It can be tough living though – you’ll still have to pay bills to someone. Maybe you’ll need to sell some of your produce so you don’t have to go and work in a cubicle. Maybe one day you sell someone a couple of cows and a few packs of seeds and they set up a farm which gives everything away for free. The people taking this free produce don’t care that it’s ruining your livelihood, that you can’t live your dream on the farm anymore because you’ve got to get a “real” job so your family doesn’t starve.

    But even ^THAT^ analogy doesn’t work properly, though it’s far more effective than the bullshit contaminated water story. Fact is that when it comes to the arts there is no comparison you can make that justifies theft.

    And before anyone comes at me for being “anti-piracy” – I have illegally downloaded music and film and I know that I have stolen that person’s work. Don’t try and appease your conscience (or lack thereof) by saying you’re not stealing because you are.

    People need to learn to stop trying to justify their immoral and illegal behaviour. Imagine you work for minimum wage and one day you turn up for work and your boss tells you he doesn’t want you because he’s found someone who’ll work for $/£1.00 an hour. You’d be pretty pissed off. Fortunately that won’t happen because there are laws to protect you. Copyright and Intellectual Property law is there for the same reason. Stop imagining that record labels are the Sheriff of Nottingham and you’re Robin Hood. By taking something for free that was never intended to be free you are stealing and depriving someone of their livelihood. You are not a noble outlaw, you are a common thief and a criminal, as am I. As an artist perhaps I’m even more reprehensible for taking the work of others, but at least I don’t hold delusions of innocence.

    I’m sure in a perfect world, post Zeitgeist movement, all musicians and film-makers would happily give their work away for free. But this isn’t a perfect world. We have to buy our food, we have to pay for rent, mortgages, petrol. We all want to fulfil our dreams and for some of us that means creating pieces of art. So we can survive we charge people to enjoy it, because if we don’t we simply can’t afford to follow our dreams.

    So the next time you acquire for free a piece of artwork that the creator requested you pay for, remember that you are robbing that person of a little part of their dreams. If you’re comfortable with that, fine, just don’t be outraged when that same person sues you for so much money you lose your home.

    • Ven

      “Imagine you work for minimum wage and one day you turn up for work and your boss tells you he doesn’t want you because he’s found someone who’ll work for $/£1.00 an hour”

      This is an interesting point: why should I be forced to hire employees at minimum wage?

      • Scary Devil Monastery

        “This is an interesting point: why should I be forced to hire employees at minimum wage?”

        You aren’t. You can always outsource to India or China and have your work done in twice the volume and at half the expense.

        Heryng is missing the point. If an artist made a deal with an employer to perform so and so many hours of service or to complete a certain project against a set payment then that comparison is valid.

        Artists generally don’t do that. They perform the work first, then try to sell it and get mightily upset when people aren’t willing to pay for services they have already rendered. That model only works when the product of the service is in short supply. Never else.

        • Ven

          No the question was, how is the government regulating minimum wage any different than the government regulating digital content through copyright?

          I’m sincerely curious.

        • Scary Devil Monastery

          @Ven

          “No the question was, how is the government regulating minimum wage any different than the government regulating digital content through copyright?

          Oooh, that’s a tough one…

          Or actually not. The government is saying you need to pay a minimum of so-and-so for an hour’s worth of labour.

          For the most part this is surmountable simply by hiring your labour in a nation where YOUR nations minimum wage is a years salary and a third of that isn’t just good pay fot the local skilled labour but suffices to cover the cost of raw materials and the factory as well.

          For all practical purposes the “minimum wage” is a surmountable convenience for any interested parties, as is copyright. In once case you can blame globalization. In the other case, the internet.

          In both cases it boils down to “We asked for it”.

        • Ven

          Interesting thoughts, thank you.

  • …and back in the room.

    I am an artist and I think this article borders on lunacy. I won’t go into the kind of art I produce as that would be irrelevant.

    The water analogy used in the article is ridiculous. A better one would be the world’s water is contaminated, a company makes clean water and sells it at a price, but somebody takes a bottle, figures out a way to replicate the molecular structure of the clean water and then gives it away to anyone who wants it. Actually, even more accurate would be to say that the person uses a method created by someone else to replicate the formula for clean water and then give it away.

    But even ^that^ analogy is ridiculous as you can’t compare music or film or any other kind of art to a life-sustaining substance. As it happens, you pay for water and food now, but you don’t have to. Feel free to go and live on a self-sustaining farm. Grow your own veg, raise livestock, get water from a well. It can be tough living though – you’ll still have to pay bills to someone. Maybe you’ll need to sell some of your produce so you don’t have to go and work in a cubicle. Maybe one day you sell someone a couple of cows and a few packs of seeds and they set up a farm which gives everything away for free. The people taking this free produce don’t care that it’s ruining your livelihood, that you can’t live your dream on the farm anymore because you’ve got to get a “real” job so your family doesn’t starve.

    But even ^THAT^ analogy doesn’t work properly, though it’s far more effective than the bullshit contaminated water story. Fact is that when it comes to the arts there is no comparison you can make that justifies theft.

    And before anyone comes at me for being “anti-piracy” – I have illegally downloaded music and film and I know that I have stolen that person’s work. Don’t try and appease your conscience (or lack thereof) by saying you’re not stealing because you are.

    People need to learn to stop trying to justify their immoral and illegal behaviour. Imagine you work for minimum wage and one day you turn up for work and your boss tells you he doesn’t want you because he’s found someone who’ll work for $/£1.00 an hour. You’d be pretty pissed off. Fortunately that won’t happen because there are laws to protect you. Copyright and Intellectual Property law is there for the same reason. Stop imagining that record labels are the Sheriff of Nottingham and you’re Robin Hood. By taking something for free that was never intended to be free you are stealing and depriving someone of their livelihood. You are not a noble outlaw, you are a common thief and a criminal, as am I. As an artist perhaps I’m even more reprehensible for taking the work of others, but at least I don’t hold delusions of innocence.

    I’m sure in a perfect world, post Zeitgeist movement, all musicians and film-makers would happily give their work away for free. But this isn’t a perfect world. We have to buy our food, we have to pay for rent, mortgages, petrol. We all want to fulfil our dreams and for some of us that means creating pieces of art. So we can survive we charge people to enjoy it, because if we don’t we simply can’t afford to follow our dreams.

    So the next time you acquire for free a piece of artwork that the creator requested you pay for, remember that you are robbing that person of a little part of their dreams. If you’re comfortable with that, fine, just don’t be outraged when that same person sues you for so much money you lose your home.

    • Anonymous

      Of course the water analogy was utter rubbish, Rick’s rantings are always so poorly thought out the Pirate Party’s representation actually went up now that he’s posting here on TF instead.

      • AnonYoureAWanker

        “Rick’s rantings are always so poorly thought out”

        Hey, you must be Kettle. Because you just called Pot black. It’s rather apparent that you shouldn’t be one to say something like that about Rick’s post when your own comments are even more poorly thought out. A quick check just in this one article alone is testament to that fact. So please, don’t critique others when you’re just as guilty (and, to be honest, more so) of the same thing. It makes you look rather foolish. Okay, Kettle?

      • Scary Devil Monastery

        That’s very tall talk given that all of your commentary is either blatantly untrue, an ad hominem attack, or misinformation.

        I have yet to see you contribute a single fact – or even a single cohesive argument – in the last twenty or so posts you’ve made. On the contrary, you’re very fond of presenting straw men, comparing apples to carjackings, and generally obfuscating the issue with blithering nonsense.

        And no, the water analogy actually stands very well as compared to a monopolistic distribution model.

        • Anon-e-mus

          And what have you ever contributed except blabbering words that only makes sense to you? You a big fat joke and a sheep too.

        • Anonymous

          @ Anon-e-mus

          He’s contributed links to support what he says. Links where you can verify what he says. Also, he doesn’t make claims as far fetched and as untrue as Anon up above. Also, it’s “You’re a big fat joke…” Not “You a big…” That’s just terrible grammar right there. Oh and that “And what have you…” applies much more to Anon than it does SDM. Do you really wanna play that game? Because with only two comments in your history, all you’re doing is talking without contributing anything besides blabbering yourself. Which I’ll take the high road on and not point out. [looks at what he wrote] Oops. Guess I didn’t take the high road. Oh well, one good turn and all that.

    • Benjamin Bookbinder

      Your minimum wage job doesn’t hold ANY better at all, IMO of course

  • http://profiles.google.com/zerianis10 Christopher Kidwell

    Even one dollar per song is too much, to be blunt, when you realize that with internet selling, these companies no longer have to pay for:

    1. Store space.
    2. Shipping and handling.
    3. Sales tax (to an extent).
    4. Packaging.

    Those are only the big 4 that come to mind, I am sure there are others. When that is taken into account, a dollar per song is WAY TOO DAMNED HIGH… it’s the same as for a song on a physical CD.
    Cut that dollar price to half or 1/3rd of the cost, then we can start talking.

    • http://www.facebook.com/eric.boehm Jack Murdock

      Im sorry to be the one to tell you, but it doesn’t work like that. You can’t just go “I’ll start following the traffic rules when they make them how I want them.”

      You know what they (the companies) do have to pay for, you selfish twat? The fees the artists spent creating the music.

      • http://profiles.google.com/zerianis10 Christopher Kidwell

        I’m sorry to you, but in the real world, which apparently you are not living in, that is how things work in the new digital age.

        No, I am not a ‘selfish twat’. I spend 3K+ on games, movies and music per year, so if I am a selfish twat? Guess what? Your fucktard attitude just lost you a very good customer, because I am not going to buy A N Y T H I N G anymore.

        I’m done with the legal route, and you now have only yourself to blame.

        • Anonymous

          “I’m done with the legal route, and you now have only yourself to blame.”

          Actually, Christopher, the creator/rights holder/manufacturer/retailer sets the price and you can do without, pay the price or be done with the legal route and steal it, which is why we take such pleasure moving legislators closer and closer to ruining your life the moment they catch you. Stand by, the trends are pretty clear. lol what a moron. done with the legal route, the new intelligent face of piracy, lol seriously.

        • http://profiles.google.com/zerianis10 Christopher Kidwell

          Anon, not going to do that, and if you think in the DIGITAL WORLD where it is so easy to get stuff from a library, rip it, download it online, etc. that people are going to do that? DREAM ON!

          Start living in the real world and stop being a shill for the copyright holders…… which is what you are when it comes down to brass tacks.

      • Guest108

        So Eric, charge for the service of creation, don’t demand the whole world’s communications be censored and monitored. The internet makes it easy to crowdsource funding. If your way of making money requires a giant fascist police state to work, it’s your way of making money that’s wrong. End copyright law.

        Copyright monopolies have no real economic or ethical justification, as Boldrin and Levine, N. Stephan Kinsella and others have shown. They’re a pure drain on society.

        • http://profiles.google.com/zerianis10 Christopher Kidwell

          Thank you, Guest108. The fact is that copyright and even patent law to an extent today is doing nothing but stifling the evolution of our society.

          When the copyright and patent owners don’t like the way that society is going, what do they do or try to do? Go out and have the lawmaking bodies by fiat of law prop up their old style of business…. it’s time that ends, period and done with, argument finished for eternity.

          If your product is SO easy to trade and distribute that people can share it so easily online? It’s time to give people some ‘added value’ for buying it from you or decrease your price to the point where they are willing to buy it from you, for the sheer peace of mind that it doesn’t have any ‘bad gook’ in it like viruses, malware, spyware, etc.

      • Anaconda

        Sorry Jack, but that exactly what we, the paying public CAN do.
        Now that we know of the monopoly, the hyper inflated pricing structure etc,
        we can boycott till we either get what we want or your pay-rollers shut up shop.

        The materials to make a CD or DVD cost pennies, the actual artists are paid the same. Only the studio picks up the lions share.

        Here’s something to carry with you:

        If all the studios in the world folded tomorrow, music would still be made, films would still be made, but they would be made cheaper. If a musician can’t make a wage from their music…then it’s simply crap music. If they can’t make millions from their music, that’s just too bad. 99% of the population of any country don’t make millions from their job either. That’s life. Why should studio bosses be any different, come to that?

        The only reason government legislation is an issue at the moment is because of lack of tax revenue through purported lost sales. Even the law lords don’t give a damn about the artist (I have yet to hear of an artist being made to make an appearance to defend his own corner even if he is the copyright holder).

        Greed is a double edged sword…a bit like ‘supply and demand’.

        Sell things at the right price demand increases, sell a shit product at an inflated price and your product is rubbished all over the world. The alternative is piracy.

        Tell your bosses to stop selling overpriced crap and stop suing grannies and kids . They’ll do fine

      • TheMAXX

        The fees for the artists are the same for a download or for a physical copy but the physical copy also has to be manufactured, distributed and has to make money for the store. None of those costs of the physical media need to be paid to sell a digital copy and yet the digital copy costs the same to buy as the physical copy. This is what Chris Kid and many others sees as wrong.

        Personally I buy the whole album for 7 or 8 bucks on amazon MP3 downloads which is cheaper than I can find it in a store so I don’t mind that part. But I also think we shouldn’t discourage non-profit sharing since sharing is an important human trait.

      • Scary Devil Monastery

        “You can’t just go “I’ll start following the traffic rules when they make them how I want them.”"

        Actually, if the result of violating the traffic rules were the same as getting into a car at all in the first place, you certainly could.

        Copyright infringement has far less impact than automotive traffic in general and to my knowledge there has never been – nor even in theory, will there ever be – a number of deaths caused by “unsafe torrenting”.

        You are confusing two phenomena which have as much correlation as a crime novel has with real murder.

    • Ven

      If you have an issue with pricing, don’t use the product. High prices have never been an argument for limitation of creation rights, only for the implementation of price ceilings. Even then, ceilings are not historically placed upon luxuries.

      They are a business and if they have found a way to cut costs, they will pass the savings on to share-holders and investors. That is how you keep your job when you answer to stock-holders, by passing profit to them.

      • http://profiles.google.com/zerianis10 Christopher Kidwell

        Oh, bullcrap! These guys have been finding numerous ways to cut costs, such as online distribution and yet they REFUSE to cut prices.

        Why? THEY ARE GREEDY! They expect people to keep on paying the same old prices for things that they today are making for 1/10th or less of the cost…. sorry, not going to do that and it’s time that they woke up to the reality that people aren’t going to do that.

        • Ven

          I don’t understand how you could call business practices of increasing and maximizing profit greedy in only this case. That is why free market works: businesses have the opportunity to make smart choices and be rewarded for them. That is business: lower cost to increase revenue.

          And if you really want to say that costs have dropped 90%, by all means give us some sources. I personally believe that digital sales may have dropped overall cost somewhere around 10-15% overall, and am confident that they didn’t drop anywhere near 90% as you suggest.

  • Oisen

    Simple thing i go out and buy something cd whatever i should be entitled to do whatever i please with it cause its mine

  • no-reply@ .com

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    I have read your comments and will let you know how you did in the near future.
    Please do not reply to this post as it is un-monitored and for your information only.

  • Farts

    I agree with the other poster that $1 is still to much for a song. Get rid of the record companies and charge 25 – 50 cents per song giving most to the artists.

    It would be nice if they could come up with a way to make file sharing legal but I don’t see that happening. With the way it is now I won’t touch a torrent. Does anyone here honestly think this free for all to whatever media you want will continue?

    I’m trying to use legal methods and they are improving but video and music streaming sites like netflix and napster are missing a lot of content. I even setup a pc dvr for recording network tv shows. Charging a premium to buy a show in hd or the ridiculous price to rent a movie in hd from sites like vudu is pure greed.

    • Ven

      Won’t happen. Artists can make 70 cents a song now selling through itunes and such. If you tanked the labels, artists would still sell their songs at a buck a pop. Also keep in mind that the writer gets streaming/radio royalties: here in the U.S. is over 9 cents per play. So if I could get you to stream my song 3 times from a radio source, I would make more than a quarter.

      At that point, artists would stop selling music and start getting onto radio sites.

      Lastly, it isn’t pure greed, it’s business: people are willing to pay so much and so they charge it. If it wasn’t profitable to sell at those prices, they would lower them. Look at video games: millions of people paid $60 for Starcraft 2. Could you really convince Blizzard that they should be charging less?

      • Beatnik_92

        have you ever talked to these writers and musicians? the royalties they get are pittance after the labels have their hand in the pot. I’m not saying the artist doesn’t deserve compensation. As you said if a person is willing to pay the asking price then the owner should have no reason to drop the price. But the owner is not the owner anymore. A record label executive did not create this culture so why should he/she reap the rewards? It should be revised so that an artist should not be obligated to sell their work to a business entity with reduced compensation for the application of distribution. As well the audience should not have to pay for the creators ability to distribute through a third party (the artist should pay that). Thus bittorrent provides a free distribution method for the artist in which the artist can personally set the price for the audience. Their exists a need for recording studios, but no need for music labels in the modern world.

        • http://profiles.google.com/zerianis10 Christopher Kidwell

          Hit the nail on the head with the ‘pittance to the artists’ point, Beatnik. Someone told me one time (they were in the recording industry but were a ‘small player’ who didn’t sell many songs) that they got a grand total of 20 cents from the 20 dollar selling price of their CD’s.

          20 DOLLARS and they get 20 CENTS? Something wrong there, buby!

        • Ven

          @Beatnik_92

          The artists are not required or obligated to sell their rights; if artists are writing their own songs, generally they are holding the copyrights on them. Look at the scenario this way:

          - Labels are basically banks that offer zero-risk loans to artists in order to get their music recorded, distributed, and publicized. Labels fail to recoup losses on most artists; in 2001 (the last numbers I saw) this happens over 75% of the time.
          - The supply/demand relationship between artists and labels is stacked heavily in favor of the labels. As a result, they have the negotiating power (as it is in the business world). And artists don’t sign contracts for art’s sake: at that point, they are saying they are making music for money.

          The end result is that the labels can charge fairly high interest (in the form of royalty garnishing) on the investment they make in bands. As bad as the situation may seem there is no risk involved for the artists, and there is no way any artist could come close to the success that even bad contracts offer.

          I will believe that labels are obsolete when I see an unsigned artist playing Madison Square or the Superbowl Halftime show. Until then, they provide (for a price) a valuable service that many artists find worth the cost.

          @Christopher Kidwell

          Making one cent on the dollar is not unheard of in the day of digital music. Producers are smart enough to copyright those sound bytes used, which according to law earn a required amount of money off each sale (I want to say like 2 cents). They do this so they can squeeze more money out of whoever they can. Labels got wise and so these costs are passed along to either the artist or the songwriter (usually the artist). So, for an artist making 16 cents on the dollar, a producer can milk all of that out by using 8 different copyrighted sound bytes on the song.

          There are other cases where the artists aren’t getting a lawyer before signing a contract (a “duh!” situation in business) or they aren’t writing their own songs, playing music, or anything else. I don’t really feel bad, because in those cases the producers tend to deserve credit for the work more anyway.

        • Friend of the People

          “It should be revised so that an artist should not be obligated to sell their work to a business entity with reduced compensation for the application of distribution.”

          An artist isn’t obligated to sell their work to anyone. Show me a law that says that. Show me anything that “obligates” artists to sign with record labels. Even one thing.

          The problem is that record labels, with all their faults, still offer the best deal to artists. They offer start-up money and a reliable/proven method of distribution. Alternatives exist, but most of them don’t offer nearly as much to the artist. Record labels offer artists the distribution and notoriety they need to make their big moneymaking tours. It still stands that the easiest way for a good artist to become known is to throw in with a record label. Most other methods place all work for marketing on the artist, and offer no start-up investment.

          Instead of just trying to kill the record labels, you should consider making something better, so artists would willingly choose to forsake the record labels.

          “(the artist should pay that). Thus bittorrent provides a free distribution method for the artist in which the artist can personally set the price for the audience. ”

          Again, that’s the problem. You place all the work on the artist and assume that bittorrent can and will match the benefits the record companies provide.

  • http://www.goodreference.biz Ax

    I will never buy a CD again. However I have been to 300 concerts. If I don’t hear your “deep cuts” for free, I am not going to your show. Frankly, I don’t want to hear your studio crap, I want it live.

    • Ven

      Good for you, but you can do that now. You have the choice to ignore the business models you don’t care for, and find alternatives. But nowhere in that is there a good argument for limiting the rights of copyright holders because you don’t like their business practices.

    • Ben

      If you don’t want to hear their “studio crap” and want to hear it live (a totally respectable idea), don’t download it. Stating you will never buy a cd agan because it’s crap is implying you don’t want it. But if you bother downloading it then it seems you DO want it. If you want what people are selling but refuse to buy it, sounds wrong to me.

    • Ben

      If you don’t want to hear their “studio crap” and want to hear it live (a totally respectable idea), don’t download it. Stating you will never buy a cd agan because it’s crap is implying you don’t want it. But if you bother downloading it then it seems you DO want it. If you want what people are selling but refuse to buy it, sounds wrong to me.
      show more show less

  • http://twitter.com/nakunaku Jeehan

    In my country we are forced to pirate because they dont support/sell games or any digital things here. And the economy is also a matter, $50 is a price of any latest game, but that is like close to our average income. So it is about money here… http://www.windows8-wallpapers.com/music/digital-pirate/

  • http://twitter.com/sjmorton Simon Morton

    The clean water analogy you cite is bogus. Water is part of the earth and therefore morally you can make the case that it should be shared equally by its inhabitants. But what gives you the right to benefit from the fruit of my labors, be it a song or a computer program, without compensating me? The whole point of recording a song, making a film, or writing a piece of software is so that multiple people can benefit from them. But, according to you, because “making copies of bitpatterns” is free, I can only expect to be compensated by one of those people; the people who just copied it get it for free. Ridiculous. Sure, valid business models can be created based on free sharing of recorded works, but you have no right to unilaterally force people to use a business model just be cause it’s the one that you happen to prefer.

  • http://twitter.com/sjmorton Simon Morton

    I can decide whether to give you my recorded works for free just as you can decide whether to go to my concerts or not. You may think my decision is short-sighted but it is still my decision.

  • http://profiles.google.com/letherial David Hodge

    FTA

    “Let me try an analogy. In a future where the Earth has been poisoned to an extent where the water is a health hazard, cleanup efforts have been ongoing for a long time. For health reasons, there are laws that people may only drink the water from a particular company, Waterisnew, which enjoys a monopoly on water supply — and know to charge for it, too.

    Then, one day, nature’s water is announced clean by scientists. But the laws are still in place. People rush out into the forest and drink from rivers, despite the fact that it breaks laws and Waterisnew’s monopoly”

    seriously, you use water as a analogy….Yes, humanity is not stupid, if there is water from a river that can be drank from for free, instead of paying a ungodly price for water from a monopoly. Of course people are going to do it, what kind of dumb out of touch greedy ass statement is that? the guy who thinks people should dehydrate instead of going to a river to support a monopoly is fucking retarded.

  • http://profiles.google.com/letherial David Hodge

    FTA

    “Let me try an analogy. In a future where the Earth has been poisoned to an extent where the water is a health hazard, cleanup efforts have been ongoing for a long time. For health reasons, there are laws that people may only drink the water from a particular company, Waterisnew, which enjoys a monopoly on water supply — and know to charge for it, too.

    Then, one day, nature’s water is announced clean by scientists. But the laws are still in place. People rush out into the forest and drink from rivers, despite the fact that it breaks laws and Waterisnew’s monopoly”

    seriously, you use water as a analogy….Yes, humanity is not stupid, if there is water from a river that can be drank from for free, instead of paying a ungodly price for water from a monopoly. Of course people are going to do it, what kind of dumb out of touch greedy ass statement is that? the guy who thinks people should dehydrate instead of going to a river to support a monopoly is fucking retarded.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Bella-Gold/1783391693 Bella Gold

    I love how people who have nothing to gain from copyright protection just love to side with these pro-pirate views, as an excuse to justify their thieving, so they don’t feel like criminals. Otherwise how else can you look in the mirror?
    The minute one of you fools stands to make some decent money on sale of copyright material, may it be a book you wrote, a song, or even an iphone app, we will see the tables turn quicker than you can blink.
    I’m not saying i don’t occasionally download a song or two, I’m just not an idiot living in denial.

    • superjesus

      While i agree the argument in the article is very weak, your argument has one big issue. The artists don’t lose money from internet piracy (unless they’re someone like fred durst or lars ulrich who have a stake in the label). In fact ‘pircay’ can help to spread their work. No they won’t make money from the downloaded song, but when they play a venue their audience is increased, thus they have a bigger (potential) live audience to sell tickets to, which is where musical artists make their most money. Also buying albums does not garuntee people will go to your show, thus they don’t have a garuntee of a selling point their either. Music labels and copyright lawyers should have no buisness in setting the price of the culture being sold. The selling price is between the artist and the audience to decide, not some shmuck middleman.

      • Pride

        Except that that middleman helps the artists in ways that the filesharing community has so far failed to do.

        The selling price is between the artist and the audience to decide, not some shmuck middleman. ”

        And what if the artist chooses to still sell it for $1 a song even after losing the labels? Would you still feel justified pirating it? After all, that is the artist’s choice. If we’re allowed to have input on the price, then I have a feeling the only acceptable price will be 0.

        At least, if I was allowed input, that’s what I’d shoot for.

    • TheMAXX

      Yes you are living in denial. Several large studies have shown that the people who download and share the most media also buy the most media. They also show that the media that gets shared the most also sells the most. It makes sense when you realize that the same human instinct that makes us derive pleasure from sharing things and ideas with others will cause us to share our money with those we feel most deserve it.

      I do make visual art and music that can easily be copied and shared digitally but since I have thought about things a bit and have read some scientific studies I know not to fear the very beneficial human traits of sharing and of energy conservation which are the traits most associated with file sharing. We are social animals and I do not condone laws or law enforcement that discourages beneficial human traits. It is unfortunate that the very companies that create these laws stand to loose the most from those laws. It goes to show you that being smart is not a good trait if you want to rise up in the ranks of any large corporation. Much easier to be dumb enough to be ruthless and step on others.

  • YourEmail

    The water example is plain stupid. Water is one of the basics you need to live. Try a new analogy that focuses on something people _want_, but don’t _need_. Then divide your “consumers”: some people will buy (product) outright. Some people will buy an alternative to (product) if they can save money. Some people will steal (product) because they don’t have they money. Some people will steal (product) because they don’t feel it’s worth the price. Some people will steal the product because their interest level isn’t enough for them to justify a legit purchase. With that, analyze where your points of loss are. I’ll bet the numbers are more surprising.

    With reference to the $0.99 article, an iWhatever game, you need to be aware of one thing: there are lots of apps in the store that you play Russian roulette with. In other words: it may suck, and you lost $0.99 on the purchase of whatever. Why? Because there are a lot of apps that don’t have demos. And many need them because the apps are useless. I’m not buying anything I can’t fully try first. Note the “fully”. That means no dippy restrictions on the features. But can I afford the full app? Yes. Do I feel it’s worth the price? Hmm… I don’t know, and there is no demo. See the point?

    Either way, if somebody doesn’t want to buy your app and they steal it, you’re not out any money. There was no potential sale to begin with.

    And me… you won’t get a purchase from. I’m disillusioned with Apple’s Draconian iTunes marketplace and tight grip on what little “I” can do with the iWhatever “I” bought. It’s free apps only for me. Apple doesn’t get any more of my money, period. Not since their little fiasco where they started charging money for firmware upgrades for the iPhone and iTouch. Yes, they stopped doing that, and Apple’s arrogance was toned down a notch, but once you wrong your customers, that stays with them. And the Draconian iTunes store. Until they open up, I won’t patronize them.

  • Anonymous

    What’s tragic to me is that you use a fictional example “Waterisnew”, when in fact you tell the story of the world’s largest genocide, that of the people of India by British troops, who (as part of their reign of terror) shot and killed Indian locals who went to the ocean’s edge where they lived for salt instead of paying Britain.

    Remember, history is cyclic. Look to the answers which have worked in the past; boycotting and open discourse with the musicians and other potential direct providers (iTunes, Zune, and other online distribution) can greatly help. Fictional examples are not needed.

    • Guest

      What’s tragic to me is that you use a fictional example “Waterisnew”

      Pronounce the name aloud.

      Though the story of the salt monopoly certainly has relevant similarities…

      • Anonymous

        No argument, water is a crucial issue in many nations now; but again, the point was to view relevant examples which were overcome in the past, rather than concurrent unsolved ones.

  • superjesus

    While I do agree with the argument that modern copyright, especially for musical acts is outdated in the extreme and thus needs to be reexamined to determine how it should be changed to fit the modern world, the analogy of water is ridiculously incorrect. Nobody made water it’s a natural resources. Materials such as culture on the other hand is created by people therefore there is a finite value in place for such materials, compensation is required. The argument to be had though isn’t ‘should the companies that distribute it” be compensated or what they should be compensated. Instead it is what should the artist(s) get. In effect it is the artist that should be paying the distributor for their product (remember most artists don’t make much money from album sales, thats their labels, they get it from merchandise or shows). To that end the distributor is quickly becoming unnecessary thanks to bittorrent (you can’t bittorrent an experience of a show, you can’t even record it, because a copy has lost the essence of what the live performance is). To this end, the labels and the lawyers who are so down on “internet pirates” are like dogs backed into a corner. They know that if they cant find a solution they will die (figuratively of course). They’re trying to hold onto a system that has moved past them and have become obsolete and they know it (hence the need to modernize copyright). Instead of teeth they have money for suing people, which is slowly fading. Though their arguments still hold credence for the exact reason your analogy is wrong. Water cannot be monopolized because it is not man made and thus no one has true claim to it, as such people will not stand for this kind of tomfoolery, not even if a law decrees it. Culture on the other hand, is created by people who wish to create and share a vision they have. It is then subcontracted to other people who can distribute it to the masses but also want to make profit. Always remember, if it is made by man, their is profit to be had and their will always be those who will fight tooth and nail for it.

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  • Yanonimo

    Actually it IS about the money, They’re not supposed to make that much money that easily…. that’s the way god wants it to be. They already got fame and make a crap load for giving interviews and doing concerts

    • superjesus

      By bringing in god you just blew the argument, thanks…..

  • What The Eff

    Why can these lawyers demand hudreds of thousands of dollars if someone illegally downloads an album or movie? If I walk in to Best Buy and steal a movie or cd and get caught I don’t owe $200,000.

    • Ven

      To steal is a misdemeanor that rarely would get you fined even if you were caught.

      Sharing on the internet is distribution, and distribution laws are written to combat hardcore counterfeiting and carry penalties as such.

  • http://twitter.com/AlyssaBlindy Alyssa Blindy

    Gahhhh. All I have to say now is this. http://alyssablindy.blogspot.com/2011/07/world-and-life-as-i-see-it.html It’s a blog post I just wrote, after getting wound up about the comments here. I know it may be irrelevant, sorry if you think it is.

    • Anonymous

      I just read what you wrote. And let’s call it what it is, a rant. A completely “I need to get this out or I will flip the f*ck out on all of you and I do believe after I say all this people will be staring at me in a WTF is wrong with this chick kind of way but I don’t care” rant. I must say… I thoroughly enjoyed it. Not being sarcastic. I guess the way you wrote that rant is the way I sometimes say mine out loud. I could literally picture you (even though I don’t actually know you or what you look like) going off and getting all that off your chest in a bar or something. Bravo Alyssa! Those are your thoughts, which you are entitled to and they certainly are interesting. I hope that felt good. I bet it did.

      Might I add, while some of it strayed from what you started off talking about, none of it was irrelevant. Not in what you wrote or as it compares to some of the comments here. Some comments here stray way further than your partial rant. Heck, some comments on here come off more as rants than actual comments. Not good ones at that. And I consider myself an expert at distinguishing good rants from bad ones. But more as the rantings of people who are completely flying off the handle because others aren’t doing what they want them to.

      Like I said, I enjoyed reading what you wrote. It struck a chord, if you will. I have put off writing lately, even though I love writing more than anything else in the world. Well not true, it ties with my love for reading. But after that, I feel inspired to perhaps write something. Maybe a rant. Maybe a poem. Maybe a short story. But something though. Anything. For that, I’d like to thank you. My laziness has had a firm grasp on my writing for quite awhile now, but no more. I’ll let my creative side run rampant for a bit. All thanks to your words and rant. ;) Keep up the good work. And feel free to “Gahhh” more often.

      Oh, and might I add, perhaps one of my favorite bits was, “Bah. F U, sucka!” Lol. Priceless. (Again, no sarcasm in what I’m saying at all. I mean it.)

      • http://twitter.com/AlyssaBlindy Alyssa Blindy

        I am very glad you enjoyed my rant. I enjoyed posting it. I understand why people want to make money from what they do, but it is all out of a lack of unity, which I tried to get out there through the rant. Thank you for your feedback. I really and genuinely appreciate it.

        • Anonymous

          Your most welcome ma’am. I did get everything you wrote, it made/makes sense. And don’t worry, it came through loud and clear. What you were trying to get across that is. About money and people and “all that jazz” (as a friend of mine likes to say).

          I look forward to reading the rest of what’s on there (assuming that’s okay) when I have the chance. If you ever need some feedback feel free to ask. Like I said, I love reading. Anything and everything. I’m also pretty good at critiquing things, mainly when it comes to writing. Grammar, spelling errors, etc. So if you need any input just say so.

    • Ven

      I read your blog. I liked the post, notably how eye-to-eye I think we see on the monetization of religion.

      I would like to say that I don’t view my music as a cash cow. I do regularly have to view it as an investment, as the kind of music I make (largely composition) is not easy on the wallet or my free time. Even though I’m pretty much required to plug more money into it doesn’t mean I keep looking for money to come out of it.

      That said, I have a family to support in a weak economy with a skill set and degree that get (financially) less useful each year. I have been told my whole life that happiness is in doing what you love, and if it was possible that I could spend my “work” time making music it would be nice. I’m not interested in playing shows that take me away from my family for weeks/months at a time, as I just don’t think that is a responsible way to manage my marriage or raise my kids. That of course also shoots my chance at any kind of label contract (I have no interest in living in Los Angeles ever again).

      So I guess I do want to believe that I can make a living recording music in a garage studio or on a basement workstation. Don’t get me wrong, I wholeheartedly support creative commons and open source and the benefits they provide society at large. I just… Don’t see these kinds of options as exclusive in any way. I want to see copyright and patent length shortened, because I think it would alleviate many of the problems people have with digital content control.

      But the question that has me looking for answers here and everywhere else can probably be summed up best as: why can’t we make all parties happy?

      • http://twitter.com/AlyssaBlindy Alyssa Blindy

        @venn first:
        First I would like to apologize to you because when I first started reading your comments on here, I classified you as a regular troll who comes here. Now, I see that I may have that wrong. So I apologize for making that judgement.
        Second, I do not know why it is so hard to make everyone happy. I guess because people are not willing to compromise a bit, and look at the possibilities of more flexible copyright laws. One thing that gets to me is how minors get in so much crap for downloading music. I think they should stop going after minors; that is just wrong and unfair. Also, those huge fines get to me. Something needs to change there; you do not get that huge of a fine if you are caught stealing a CD, so why would someone get such a fine for digital downloads?
        Third, I know and understand that we often have different philosophies about what should be done next. But, I am glad to see that in the end, we both have the same intentions, and the intentions are to try to make all parties content in creation (or destruction) of new copyright and IP laws. Although I know you disagree with the “destruction” part, but our differences of opinion are what keep the debates always going to strong and live on this site.
        @electric_worry and everyone:
        Feel free to read anything that you want off of that blog. You may find some stupid random silliness, but that’s just who I am at times. Random, insane, silly, and stupid.
        Happy reading.

        • Ven

          1. I understand that my… “Opinions” are generally not appreciated here, and I am okay with it. I come here because I know almost everybody disagrees with me, which is the reason my views will be challenged here the best. I can’t be a person who sits talking philosophy with people who think the same way I do.

          Doing that is like talking in a mirror: sad, pathetic, and a little creepy.

          2. I’m a big fan of shortening non-commercial copyrights. That is, copying for personal use should be fine after 10-15 years. I wouldn’t even mind it has high as 25 or as low as 5 years from release. What I would want to prevent is companies from using lapsed copyrighted material commercially. I would also like to see some form of abandonware laws in effect, whereby content creators would be forced to distribute their works if they wanted to maintain distribution rights.

          When Activision wanted a band-specific title for Guitar Hero, they first approached the king daddy of all rock bands: Led Zeppelin. Concerned for their image as a band, Led declined to let their songs be used. I just don’t want to see giant corporations swoop in and use copyrighted works like that without permission. If someone is going to profit, I would like it be the creator of the original content.

          In regards to minors: there is no better alternative unfortunately. If children are breaking laws, their parents are failing to teach them to respect the law. You can either hold the parent responsible (which happens from time to time), or you can punish the child in the hopes that they will conform beyond the weak influence of their parents.

          I believe however that the large fines handed to teenagers and adults alike are the result of an outdated system that needs to be modified, and not just in the case of copyright infringement. This is the digital age, and we need new laws that deal with this specific form of infringement.

          3. I agree change is needed and coming. Here in the United States, I believe IP law is a small part of the larger change required in government to respond to the increased speeds which technology moves our world.

    • Ven

      I read your blog. I liked the post, notably how eye-to-eye I think we see on the monetization of religion.

      I would like to say that I don’t view my music as a cash cow. I do regularly have to view it as an investment, as the kind of music I make (largely composition) is not easy on the wallet or my free time. Even though I’m pretty much required to plug more money into it doesn’t mean I keep looking for money to come out of it.

      That said, I have a family to support in a weak economy with a skill set and degree that get (financially) less useful each year. I have been told my whole life that happiness is in doing what you love, and if it was possible that I could spend my “work” time making music it would be nice. I’m not interested in playing shows that take me away from my family for weeks/months at a time, as I just don’t think that is a responsible way to manage my marriage or raise my kids. That of course also shoots my chance at any kind of label contract (I have no interest in living in Los Angeles ever again).

      So I guess I do want to believe that I can make a living recording music in a garage studio or on a basement workstation. Don’t get me wrong, I wholeheartedly support creative commons and open source and the benefits they provide society at large. I just… Don’t see these kinds of options as exclusive in any way. I want to see copyright and patent length shortened, because I think it would alleviate many of the problems people have with digital content control.

      But the question that has me looking for answers here and everywhere else can probably be summed up best as: why can’t we make all parties happy?

  • Ryan Jackson

    I wish I could have stated things like this in so many arguments. I would have instead used air as an example (since, people are already dumb enough to buy filtered city water in bottles).

    (I produce work, that is digital in nature, and anything worth stealing, I offer for free after the initial commission)

  • Dhxjarsyl

    I think there is another point that never gets brought up in these discussions. All physical products have specifics specifications and quantifiable performance that can be measured and if the product doesn’t produce said performance it is defective and can generally be returned, recalled, or a class action lawsuit filed.

    This doesn’t apply to digital entertainment. If I go out and buy a car and it doesn’t work, or if after getting home I find out driving to X location or using it in X fashion has been disabled I can take the car back or if they wont accept it I can sue them and fairly easily win. If I buy a piece of software, movie, or music and the product is no good I am SOL. On top of that antipiracy measures prevent you from using said property (Which in this scenario you paid for and own) in the manner you see fit. If this was done with any other physical product there would be a shitstorm.

    Why is it ok for a software company to release a non functional game, a music company to sell you a CD where 2/3rds of the tracks are garbage, or for either of those two to sell you a product with restrictive or even destructive DRM? When was the last time you bought a kitchen appliance (say a toaser) only to come home and find your kitchen destroyed by some hidden function of the toaster? Better yet, when have you used a physical product bought it based on a test (aka demo) only to find out the only features that work are the the ones in the demo and everything else is fake?

    These things happen all the time with digital entrainment and not physical products. They are very clearly different, yet they try to force feed the idea that both products are the same and theft is theft. The whole idea that for downloading (stealing?) they are the same, but during disputes about defective products they are different and can’t possibly be compared is ludicrous. If copying a digital item is the same as stealing a physical item then purchasing a digital item has to be the same as purchasing a physical item. Anything else is bullshit propaganda that they are trying to convince you of to give themselves and unfair advantage in the market.

    Before we can rationally discuss what piracy is and how to deal with it first we need to establish if digital items are the same as physical items, and if the answer is yes then they need to be treated as such IN EVERY REGARD and not just when it suits cooperate interests.

    • Ven

      Like many other products on the planet, digital content is sold as is. Companies that refuse to allow customers to return merchandise may lose business for it, but that is their call to make.

      • Dhxjarsyl

        “Like many other products on the planet…” Name a single other product you can purchase which does not have a measurable level of performance and doesn’t either get returned or recalled if it doesn’t meet said performance.

        • Ven

          Music is an art form, distinguishable from information or noise. As such, the only guarantee possible to make would be on the delivery method or storage method. In both cases (physical and digital sales) there are methods for replacing damaged goods or failed/corrupted downloads. If you didn’t like the art, you probably failed to demo/review it first.

          Can you point out some other products that give you as much of a commitment-free trial as checking out music on a Myspace or Youtube before purchase?

        • Dhxjarsyl

          Tasting fruit in the supermarket, test driving a car, seeing functional electronics in a store, all silly infomercials with a money back guarantee, open houses, public records on used cars and homes. Really you can demo and test pretty much every single thing before you buy it.

        • Ven

          @Dhxjarsyl

          But consider those products

          - tasting fruit is grazing if they don’t have samples. If they do, the samples can often be sifted to remove the poor quality fruit you may receive in a purchase. Food is also a consumable, not really analogous to non-streaming music.
          - Does test driving a car give you insight into how long it will last? How safe it is in different kinds of situations? How well it retains its listed MPG or resale value? Car salesmen wouldn’t have such poor reputations if a test drive really told you everything about the car.
          - Open houses: do they include an independent home inspection? Do they really show you what kind of neighborhood you would be living in, or what the other 3 seasons of the year mean in terms of weather? Do you know what kinds of pests are to be dealt with?

          Public records for homes and cars are nowhere near as good as HD audio off of Youtube/VEVO is for demonstrating what kind of music that song would be if you bought it. And money-back guarantees are a business option, that often include S&H, and is one that plenty of industries live without.

          So you are right: we can test and demo almost everything before we buy it. And music generally offers the demos closest to the actual product as you can find anywhere.

        • Ven

          @Dhxjarsyl

          But consider those products

          - tasting fruit is grazing if they don’t have samples. If they do, the samples can often be sifted to remove the poor quality fruit you may receive in a purchase. Food is also a consumable, not really analogous to non-streaming music.
          - Does test driving a car give you insight into how long it will last? How safe it is in different kinds of situations? How well it retains its listed MPG or resale value? Car salesmen wouldn’t have such poor reputations if a test drive really told you everything about the car.
          - Open houses: do they include an independent home inspection? Do they really show you what kind of neighborhood you would be living in, or what the other 3 seasons of the year mean in terms of weather? Do you know what kinds of pests are to be dealt with?

          Public records for homes and cars are nowhere near as good as HD audio off of Youtube/VEVO is for demonstrating what kind of music that song would be if you bought it. And money-back guarantees are a business option, that often include S&H, and is one that plenty of industries live without.

          So you are right: we can test and demo almost everything before we buy it. And music generally offers the demos closest to the actual product as you can find anywhere.

  • Mr. Perfect

    Mr. Falvinge, your article is so devoid of any logic, that I don’t even know where to start. It looks like incoherent rambling to me.

    First of all, you make an analogy between drinking natural water and piracy which doesn’t even make any sense. Let just make one thing very clear, water in its original form, is a gift of nature and a natural resource which nobody in particular has created and therefore cannot be owned by anyone and no laws in the world can ever monopolize water as long as its safe for drinking in its original form. That’s why we don’t pay for water itself but water purification devices and of course other products like pepsi and coca cola made out of water. You can’t sell a natural resource but you have to make something useful out if (like pepsi) in order to sell it.

    In future water can be monopolized as you have said but only as long as its not safe for drinking in its original form because in that case you are not paying for the water itself but the cost of purifying the water. The reason why the water analogy fails is because movies and softwares aren’t natural resources but they have to created by someone and as such can be owned by an individual or a company and only that person or company can decide what you can or cannot do with their product which is not the case with water as it cannot be owned by anyone.

    When you are copying a movie with the logic that you are merely copying a bit pattern of 1s and 0s, you are forgetting that 1s and 0s in random patterns isn’t worth of any value and it takes someone with skills to put them in a particular order for it to mean something. Same thing with atoms and molecules of a physical product. Nature provides you with raw materials (like iron, lead etc.) which aren’t useful in their original form but when you make something out of it, it becomes a useful product worth paying for. Then why doesn’t this exact same logic apply in case of digital products is beyond me.

    When you pay for a software or movie, you are paying for the effort and work put in by the producer or author of that product, without whose hard work and skills, the product wouldn’t exist.

    I think you are having difficulty coming to terms with the huge profit margins of the entertainment industry but when you think about it, there is huge profit to be made for any industry which produces goods which are in mass demand all over the world. This also goes for industries like Intel producing physical products like microchips which is why they are so rich.

    “Creative Commons is a good example of how millions of creators renounce their already-awarded copyright monopoly. That shows how much the monopoly is needed for new culture to be created, i.e. not at all.”

    Creative Commons has also shown that 9 out 10 times commercial versions of a particular software are far superior to their free counterparts and its because there are dedicated teams of devs producing commercial software who get paid for their work. Its for the same reason why I was forced to switch from Open Office to Microsoft Office (against my wish) because I needed more functionality for my office work.

    And as for free to distribute movies, there are very few produced and needless to say they are no match for movies produced by Hollywood as they simply don’t have the financial backing and investment to take on large projects.

  • Fashionstyle220

    fashionstyle220@gmail.com thinks LulSec is wankers… :)

  • Fashionstyle220

    fashionstyle220@gmail.com thinks LulSec is wankers… :)

  • Pingback: It Was Never About The Money, Stupid

  • AnarchyNow

    How many times did I say I want to be able to choose NOT TO PAY for 0s & 1s?
    Capitalism has no future at all, I don’t give a shit if it starts with the record/movie industry, they’re totally useless.

  • AnarchyNow

    How many times did I say I want to be able to choose NOT TO PAY for 0s & 1s?
    Capitalism has no future at all, I don’t give a shit if it starts with the record/movie industry, they’re totally useless.

  • http://tinyurl.com/ANoiXioNA-personal-info ANoiXioNA

    @Rick Falkvinge ( Have nothing to say about the article…..except…agree. )

    Wow… I think you have inadvertently…. created a trolling record……….
    There must be a hundred Copyright troll comments , trying to defame your argument….
    How much money they are getting paid to troll is unknown…… but they have sold their moral conscience to the highest bidder…..
    They can’t win with words anyway….. so their trolling is futile…..

    .
    Trolls ONLY care about the bottom line.
    Saying that filesharing has nothing to do with cash is like ……..

    Taking …a red hot poker with spikes…….that has been dipped in itching powder…..

    Then………..
    With precision …and… pinpoint accuracy

    Ramming it ……..up their bum hole…….. slowly……

    ____________________________________________________________________

    @Trolls ….. ( you know who you are… especially if you are getting paid to troll…. )

    Painful …. Is it trolls… ? ( the itchy… poker of reality )

    Bottom line…. is ALL about YOUR business model……
    Create something that can be shared endlessly at zero cost = ……..???????
    (i wont say it…. your ignorance will shut your ears anyway )

    • Pride

      Do you really think people would be paid to post stuff here? Seems rather wasteful to me.

      There’s a much simpler explanitation. The article reached the #3 spot on Digg and was also posted on Reddit. That brought in people who don’t normally come here, and since the people coming weren’t the people who normally come here, there were a higher proportion of people who disagree with us. That’s the easiest explanitation. Occam’s Razor.

      It didn’t help that he made a weak argument. I agree with what he’s trying to say (at least some of it), but he used a horrible analogy, and even more than that, he avoided the real issue. Filesharing is about money. We want a change in business models and we want to be charged less; therefore it’s about money.

      Let’s face it; the vast majority of us never share anything on a torrent site, so most of us never do the sharing part of filesharing. We only take. This is, in the end, about money, and it’s a little disingenuous of Rick to try and say otherwise just because he thinks it sounds bad to say “we care about the money we’re being screwed out of”.

  • Guest

    Sorry, but your analogy is “bollocks” as they say. The reason it falls down is because in this case you’re comparing a corporate-produced item (i.e. Waterisnew’s water) with a naturally-occurring one (i.e. water in nature which has become safe).

    To bring your analogy into line, it would be like Waterisnew having spent loads of money making it safe to drink, then someone breaking into their factory and turning on the tap so the water now flows out into nature. Waterisnew is right to be pissed because they’ve invested significant sums of money in making the water clean, only for it to be stolen by a bunch of freeloaders. So analogy fail.

    I’m certainly not in favour of the current copyright monpoly, but it is watery freeloader arguments like this which hurt the cause of copyright reform. You cannot expect companies and individuals to invest in creating works if there is no way for them to recoup the cost. Reality.

    • http://tinyurl.com/ANoiXioNA-personal-info ANoiXioNA

      Music creators have NO way to make money… without digital SALES ?
      Film creators have NO way to make money… without digital SALES ?
      Software creators have NO way to make money… without digital SALES ?

      “”there is no way for them to recoup the cost. Reality. “”

      YOUR REALITY iS SO FUCKED UP iT’S BACKWARD

      cinema..gigs..services..etc…. ( different business models )

      Oh but the preference is a model where you can sell worthless copies that cost NOTHING to reproduce…….

      Economic Business PROBLEM….. not Thieves pillaging profit …..
      COPY……. not steal….
      SHARING……. not freeloading….
      Monopoly to sell worthless information……. not copyright….

      But you live in the world of ……opposite reality…….

      (wonder why Pro-Copyright blogs don’t allow opposing free comments….?
      ….. yes they have an ongoing propaganda mission…thats it…..)

      Good luck in your current propaganda mission……. Billions of people need educated with lies about reality……

      • Tosser

        This “the medium is the message” mantra is actually a bit of a fallacy. The medium is free, but to say that totally and unequivocally transfers fully to the message conveyed with no rights reserved for the people who put it there is a weird one.

        Which has more value? A well directed, well written, well acted movie or a 2 hours of static? They’re both the same data-wise, but which one would you rather watch? They’re not the same. I’ll admit this is an intangible difference, but it matters.

        FWIW – Guest uses n00bish emotive language (stealing? ahahahah) … but he has a point. The analogy does not take into account that the people have more than enough money to buy water… but choose to spend it on other things instead. Also that water with ads on the bottle is available through hundreds of channels 24 hours a day. And independent water providers give out millions of small drinks every year.

        So what right do people have to bust in and demand the freshest water from a company that already floods the market?

  • Jiminyripit

    That was one of the most naive and obtuse analogies i’ve come across in a long while. thanks for the belly laugh, n00b.

    • http://tinyurl.com/ANoiXioNA-personal-info ANoiXioNA

      Guess you where replying to @ Guest…..

      LoL….. He sure is a n00b troll……. His arguments are so 1990′s…..
      Like he’s been forced to watch every anti-pirate ad on Movie VHS tapes …. as part of his training to be a paid… shill troll…..

      • ANON

        No, you’re the n00b troll. If he was replying to Guest, he would have pressed the reply button against this comment. Rick Falvinge is the biggest n00b of all though trying to come up with an analogy that makes zero sense.

  • Him

    i think it has been partially about the money. as long as we are talking about what the entertainment industries think they should get, when talking about sales, performances or court cases. it has never been about the money when talking about any situation where the entertainment industries should have been paying out, eg even to their own artists!

  • Ben

    Something that drives me nuts is when people who are “all about the music” are talking about how overpriced music is they talk about the cost of the medium. LIke “$15 for a piece of plastic that cost 5 cents?” or “99 cents for a digital file containing only 1s and 0s? that shit is free. Why should we be charged for it?”

    You aren’t paying for the plastic or the 1s and 0s. It’s never been about that. You are paying for the audio documentation (a record if you will) of those musicians performing that song at that time. And that is their job. If they can’t make money doing it, it’ll be hard to find time to write music, record, tour, ever practice with your band and also work 50 hours a week at Home Depot to pay your rent/morgage/car/phone/food/kids/school or whatever.

    • Anon-e-mus

      You can’t justify paying for 1s and 0s? Then why are you paying for a car as its nothing but atoms and molecules? Every physical product you buy is nothing but atoms and molecules fool. You wankers make me laugh. Go play with your marbles.

  • DRuNKeN MaSTeR

    “they don’t even reflect sunlight any longer” – Best description ever for the MAFIAA!

  • Loodwig

    Honestly, I think the music industry and these RIAA houses are buggy whip manufacturers. As a musician, “making” it is more about getting others to listen to my music than it is about market saturation, shows, t-shirts, what brand of cymbal or keyboard I use, my look, or anything else. Like the article emphasized, I’d challenge to see what the world would look like without them. Sure, composers had patrons, and musicians traditionally had other trades so they didn’t starve (or in some cases, they did starve), but the culture and art mattered more than staying alive… and I think the work and society profited as a result. Honestly, I can only see our world being better without the RIAA; free music shared by people who just want to write for the sake of writing. Maybe music won’t be as masterfully produced, and engineers will have to work somewhere else or we’ll see layoffs. Well, this wouldn’t be the first time in American (let alone world) history that an industry vanished. Human progress carries with the innovation and extinction of technologies and industries. The industries of Hollywood and beyond are in their death throws; I’d say as a musician… let’s do all we can to put it out of our misery.

  • Tosser

    Can you really compare a cave painting to a AAA TV series that hundreds of people worked constantly for thousands of hours to create?

    And Water as Entertainment? That’s a terrible analogy! – according to that analogy you could make it rain by telling a joke or making up a song. Entertainment as a business exists because it creates readily accessible art that people enjoy – they don’t actually have a monopoly on the whole of fun.

    I agree that record companies have overstepped their boundaries – remember the Australian labels saying ‘no compromise until piracy is dead’, and alternative business models will inherit the earth. But a key factor is for the artist (and the artisans, engineers and craftsmen *employed* along the way – many of whom face high fixed costs which cannot be overcome) to retain control over their work and have the right to ask for something in return from those who take something from it (physical or emotional).

  • RIAAtarded

    you’re right here is the rub.. it isn’t profitable anymore because the business model dictates a change. They have decided they don’t want to change because it is easier to justify high costs when you get something physical for it. Going digital they can’t do that anymore so the solution is simple. Try and demonize piracy to justify new legislation allowing tighter controls moving forward and prolonging any change over. Everyone knows by now they aren’t losing money quite the opposite. Avatar made 2.7 billion. There are 50 movies over 1/2 billion in gross profits. Most since 2000. This is the little boy who cried wolf and thanks to CGI and a shit pile of money our government officials are believing it hook line and sinker.

  • RIAAtarded

    you’re right here is the rub.. it isn’t profitable anymore because the business model dictates a change. They have decided they don’t want to change because it is easier to justify high costs when you get something physical for it. Going digital they can’t do that anymore so the solution is simple. Try and demonize piracy to justify new legislation allowing tighter controls moving forward and prolonging any change over. Everyone knows by now they aren’t losing money quite the opposite. Avatar made 2.7 billion. There are 50 movies over 1/2 billion in gross profits. Most since 2000. This is the little boy who cried wolf and thanks to CGI and a shit pile of money our government officials are believing it hook line and sinker.

  • blah

    If everything was free then how will the music industry pay for stuff such as advertisement, production, or promotion?
    Sure they’re ripping us off but at the same time saying everything should be free is like saying water should be free, even though water company put effort and money into bringing water to you just like your example.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

      Do they need all that advertisement when they have Youtube?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Greg-Brunty/100000531864460 Greg Brunty

    All the music industry has to do is change their business model. there is legitimate money to be made, once you put the piracy behind you. Yes, just forget about it.

    1. Put machines on every corner that burn mix CD’s, any song for a price.

    2. Put boxes in bars and taverns that are capable of karaoke ~ make any song available, for a price. Allow any song sung by you to be burned, and encoded with the track information identical to the artist; when uploaded to the internet, the search engines will be flooded with karaoke amateur content.

    New niche market created.

    Make piracy difficult for the average user again.

    Problem solved.

    • Guest

      file sharing is not piracy

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Greg-Brunty/100000531864460 Greg Brunty

    All the music industry has to do is change their business model. there is legitimate money to be made, once you put the piracy behind you. Yes, just forget about it.

    1. Put machines on every corner that burn mix CD’s, any song for a price.

    2. Put boxes in bars and taverns that are capable of karaoke ~ make any song available, for a price. Allow any song sung by you to be burned, and encoded with the track information identical to the artist; when uploaded to the internet, the search engines will be flooded with karaoke amateur content.

    New niche market created.

    Make piracy difficult for the average user again.

    Problem solved.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Greg-Brunty/100000531864460 Greg Brunty

    All the music industry has to do is change their business model. there is legitimate money to be made, once you put the piracy behind you. Yes, just forget about it.

    1. Put machines on every corner that burn mix CD’s, any song for a price.

    2. Put boxes in bars and taverns that are capable of karaoke ~ make any song available, for a price. Allow any song sung by you to be burned, and encoded with the track information identical to the artist; when uploaded to the internet, the search engines will be flooded with karaoke amateur content.

    New niche market created.

    Make piracy difficult for the average user again.

    Problem solved.

  • http://www.facebook.com/strummer95 Dillon Johnson

    This is beyond ignorant…. first… the gov doesnt charge… they simple enforce laws that entitle ppl to make money for making a product…..

    And the price is for the cost of creating a digital copy for someone? You are trying to say movies should be free because a digital file doesn’t cost money to make!? To say that is astonishingly absurd…. The cost is because the studios have to dump MILLIONS into making and marketing movies.

    Music and movies cost money mostly because it is a service… not a good. They are creating the service but the point isn’t to give you a file… the point is to entertain you through watching it.

    And ur analogy is in no way relevant, ur comparing apples and tacos. The government isn’t forcing you to buy entertainment from one company like ur dumb water analogy rambles about. And also, movies don’t spring up from nature like water in a stream does. You are saying that water and movies are created the same way!? I’d like to know where that stream is that creates movies. I thought someone had to actually MAKE them. A water analogy would be more accurate saying that bottled water is charged for, even though its naturally occurring water. Well…. then go get your water from a stream and don’t buy it bottled…. or if you don’t wanna buy movies, go make your own.

    What is going on is that MANY companies are making movies and music which they need to charge ppl for, and under copyright laws, have every right to SELL exclusively in order to make profit. The government enforces these laws for assholes like you who feel entitled to everything for free.

    Here’s an accurate analogy….
    If John consults an attorney. The attorney must charge for his specialized advice. John can’t just leave without paying the attorney, cuz that’s stealing (even though John didn’t physically steal hard goods from the attorney).
    Then John tells Bob, Bob tells Adam etc etc and eventually people stop going to lawyers more and more because they are sharing information for free. Eventually there will not be enough money in being an attorney so people stop becoming attorneys. Therefore, eventually no lawyers exist.
    Now John needs new advice from an attorney but can’t get it because making money in being attorney became impossible.

    This is what pirating does. It costs studios money… they can’t make money when people prevent them from getting a return on investment because they are “sharing” the product/service.

    Also the same as… not everything burnt on a cd or dvd costs the exact costs of the blank dvd or cd itself. There is a thing called services, and that can and needs to be something that can be sold.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

      ” the gov doesnt charge… they simple[sic] enforce laws that entitle ppl to make money for making a product…..”

      The product and a copy are at zero. People would love to pay for access (hint: Netflix) so finding ways to make money is up to the copyright holder (hint: HBO Go for Game of Thrones = 1 week early to watch an episode)

      “You are trying to say movies should be free because a digital file doesn’t cost money to make!? ”

      You’re implying something that you know nothing about. Please stop and focus on a better argument. Implications are not your friend.

      “The cost is because the studios have to dump MILLIONS into making and marketing movies.”

      Finance 101 says that they make billions but make it so they “lose” millions. Or have you never heard of Hollywood accounting?

      http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100708/02510310122.shtml

      Do me a favor. When you can tell me how “Harry Potter: Order of the Phoenix” lost $212 million without cooking the books, I’ll buy you a beer.

      “The government enforces these laws for assholes like you who feel entitled to everything for free.”

      Yes, and the government encroaches on the 1st and 4th Amendment to do so. But rather than ask a constitutional question, let’s sit down and see what exactly this government does with MY taxpayer money:

      Do I want them to prosecute me for watching a movie for free online at Vodo.com or do I want them to go out, do something productive with the 8.5 billion dollar enforcement budget and figure out how to fix the tax code, immigration laws, student visas, repeal the vast amounts of overcriminalization in this country, stop the disenfranchisement of the prison system, work on updating our 1937 Marijuana act, select a president with some cajones and a better domestic policy, reenfranchise the vote, know a lot more about technology that what’s handfed to them by the MPAA/RIAA, and be ready to understand the digital economy?

      Hmmm… Choices…

      “This is what pirating does. It costs studios money… they can’t make money when people prevent them from getting a return on investment because they are “sharing” the product/service.”

      Bullshit. Pirates are good consumers. http://torrentfreak.com/suppressed-report-found-busted-pirate-site-users-were-good-consumers-110719/

      The rest of what you’re trying to say is lost to me.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

    @Ven
    Sorry, I need to start a new thread. There’s a lot going on and I gotta focus.

    “Your first video is the exact reason why you want an experienced lawyer looking at the contract before you sign. There is a surprising level of negotiation that can be done before the label will choose to pass on the artist. This is because the labels leave lawyers to deal with contracts, and the lawyers just want to get paid.”

    Exactly. It’s also the reason self promotion is becoming a stronger alternative to big business contracts. Some of the terms used for negotiation no longer apply.

    “These are of course major labels we are talking about. The indie labels (even ones owned by majors) have much lower advances that need to be repaid, and generally that advance can include producer, recording, mixing, and mastering. ”

    But that’s just it… We’ve just had the Jamendo experience along with magnatune being around for some time. There’s others out there, but the fact remains that the indie labels that help more than litigate are doing quite well. Hell, more artists are making their own labels, which should tell us something.

    “The article you posted is similar, and paints a bleak picture. However, none of these take into account songwriting royalties (which only the dumbest of morons would give to the label) as well as endorsements and tour income. Lady Gaga for instance has released a total of 2 albums since she hit the scene in 2008: she is currently worth over 110 million dollars.”

    Forgive me, but if we start talking about songwriting, I’ll have to mention the scam that is ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC. These organizations represent their own back pocket, not the artist. And last I checked Lady Gaga went bankrupt because she wasn’t watching her financials in her 360 deal.

    “The end result is that signing a label contract is not a direct payoff, it is an opportunity to get yourself or band marketed enough to be in a position to make some real cash. The article mentions 30 Seconds to Mars being a band that got screwed over, but their lead singer Jared Leto alone is worth $40 million. How much of that could he have realistically expected to make if the band had self-released back in 1998?”

    Remember, that article I had posted up is at least 2 years old. The rules of 1998 don’t really apply here on the internet now. 1998 was the year of the CD. We now have smarter unbundling of music and newer options of self promotion. Further, people don’t rely on labels, who are reacting quite negatively to this information. Instead of possibly lowering costs, using newer tools to promote artists, or even find new revenue streams, they instead litigate to Congress for laws to control distribution methods, save the money from litigation for themselves (Limewire settlement) or sue for copyright infringement, making piracy a stronger alternative.

    • Ven

      Self release is stronger than ever, but that doesn’t mean it is stronger than a labeled release… Not yet anyway.

      In regards to ASCAP/BMI/SESAC: their system needs to change. ASCAP/BMI were set in place in an agreement between copyright industries and the government to “independently” collect royalties to be paid to rights holders. The amount they shave off the top for “operating costs” is over 100 million dollars a year. I would totally understand that cost 25 years ago when they have to pay people to sit around and listen all day long, taking notes on what played everywhere. But technology has turned that from a day job into an Iphone app, and they shouldn’t be profiting off it.

      “And last I checked Lady Gaga went bankrupt because she wasn’t watching her financials in her 360 deal.”

      Lady Gaga went bankrupt dumping millions into her world tour without paying attention. Definitely not the fault of the labels that she hurt her credit score.

      “Instead of possibly lowering costs, using newer tools to promote artists, or even find new revenue streams, they instead litigate to Congress for laws to control distribution methods, save the money from litigation for themselves (Limewire settlement) or sue for copyright infringement, making piracy a stronger alternative.”

      - To be fair: the industries only ask the government to take measures to enforce the current form of IP law. Like everybody else, the RIAA/MPAA is asking the government to move faster in the electronic age. It’s a rough spot to be in for them: it takes them months or years to fight a legal battle against a site like Limewire or Hotfile. And ten minutes after the case is accepted and a court date is set, ten new Limewire/Hotfile sites are started as a giant “Screw you” to the industries from random people. If the government is to continue supporting copyright in it’s existing form, they need to get better at enforcing these laws.
      - I still point out that settlement money is not negotiated into artist contracts. It is never supposed to be given back to them. The RIAA/MPAA is a business and not a charity. Artists are to them more like customers than stockholders: they provide a service at a predetermined price.
      - Suing for copyright infringement is within their rights, and is supposed to deter people from pirating.

      They do promote artists using new tools, and are rolling Spotify into the United States to offer subscription-based music services. Just because they don’t do it as quickly as the internet moves doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it at all.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

      ASCAP/BMI/SESAC

      I’m of the opinion that they shouldn’t exist at all. They are legal extortion rings, making it difficult for newer artists to come up because they have a habit of shutting places down through copyright law. You can top that off with the very fact that hidden in their website is the knowledge they only pay the 200 top performing acts in the USA, leaving everyone else (jazz players, blues) who doesn’t make as much as street pizza with little representation. Hell, they take 16% of the earnings from their legal bullying. They are currently no better than Intellectual Ventures in the patent arena in their trolling efforts.

      “Lady Gaga went bankrupt dumping millions into her world tour without paying attention. Definitely not the fault of the labels that she hurt her credit score.”

      There’s a large swath of artists that have went bankrupt through RIAA accounting… TLC, Courtney Love, Amanda Palmer (before she got out), etc. I wouldn’t put it past the labels, were we to see the contracts, to try to slip a few mickies to put more money into their pocket by fudging a few numbers. They have done that before… http://www.toomuchjoy.com/?p=1397

      “To be fair: the industries only ask the government to take measures to enforce the current form of IP law. ”

      Which is already too draconian as evidenced by the high statutory damages that are out of line with reality…

      “Like everybody else, the RIAA/MPAA is asking the government to move faster in the electronic age. ”

      When has any government entity ever been good with regulation? TSA? Security theater. Freddie and Fannie? Yeah… 30 Years in the making for the financial meltdown. Asking the government for help is usually the first sign that you’re doing something wrong.

      ” It’s a rough spot to be in for them: it takes them months or years to fight a legal battle against a site like Limewire or Hotfile.”

      But how long would it have taken for them to learn to compete and make their own filesharing network instead of try to throw technology back into the stone age? Also, how effective was their tactic? Napster was gone for a while, and others popped in. Limewire goes down, and now there’s more distribution that is less central. Hell, the reason we *have* Bittorrent is because the entertainment industry attacked centralized distribution so fiercely. Now they have no choice but to go for the person.

      “And ten minutes after the case is accepted and a court date is set, ten new Limewire/Hotfile sites are started as a giant “Screw you” to the industries from random people. ”

      The problem is their business model in general. The RIAA was trying to push everyone to CDs. They are no longer as necessary. They don’t know how to compete, which is a problem. But that’s not the fault of consumers. It’s the fault of those that want to impede the demand that is there. If anything, piracy adds value to content.

      http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1868659

      “If the government is to continue supporting copyright in it’s existing form, they need to get better at enforcing these laws.”

      And I’ll disagree. After reading “Media Piracy in emerging Economies” along with alot of extra research such as Michael D. Smith’s “Channels &Conflict” research on Youtube, I have to say that copyright enforcement, namely the selective enforcement that the government will do, is a failing endeavor. You can’t outlaw streaming without collateral damage. You can’t take away the financial services of foreign companies without hurting your relations with other countries. Further, the piracy will continue in another form. The best way to combat it (as the paper says above) is to constantly improve your own offerings, forcing customers to come back to you. Our government can continue down this road, but it won’t cause people to buy more products and will only hurt in the end.

      ” I still point out that settlement money is not negotiated into artist contracts. It is never supposed to be given back to them. The RIAA/MPAA is a business and not a charity. Artists are to them more like customers than stockholders: they provide a service at a predetermined price.”

      And I’ll point out, this seems that they feel they’re entitled to do whatever they want. So long as they don’t understand that they can provide services to add value to their artists, they will continue to bleed money (EMI comes to mind.). So long as they don’t understand how to compete in a digital marketplace, consumers and artists will find other ways to support themselves (such as Jamendo) without the draconian need to sell their copyrights and the left side of their brain to a big label.

      “Suing for copyright infringement is within their rights, and is supposed to deter people from pirating. ”

      We’ve had 20 years of the DMCA. How has the more enforcement changed people’s views on piracy? How successful has HADOPI been in forcing piracy underground and causing a 54 year old man to be the first person kicked off the internet for accusations?

      “They do promote artists using new tools, and are rolling Spotify into the United States to offer subscription-based music services. Just because they don’t do it as quickly as the internet moves doesn’t mean they aren’t doing it at all”

      There’s some things missing with your explanation on Spotify. I believe it’s actually gimped for the US market. Hell, the record labels gimped Spotify into being worse!

      http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110718/08554415146/can-innovation-through-business-solve-issues-that-legal-repression-cant.shtml

      And that’s the problem. The labels have too much power over what the end users can do with legally owned music. Spotify could be a better service. Same as Google Music, Amazon Music or any other legal service where people want to play songs. What’s getting in the way is some corporation, who wants to throw back technology for its own bottom line.

      • Ven

        “I’m of the opinion that they shouldn’t exist at all.”

        Well, someone has to keep the radio industry honest, I just don’t know why it isn’t more heavily regulated if the government requires that I the artist join a PRO to get my royalties.

        “I wouldn’t put it past the labels, were we to see the contracts, to try to slip a few mickies to put more money into their pocket by fudging a few numbers.”

        In Lady Gaga’s case, it was her lack of accounting that got her into trouble. In broader scope however, the artists can’t be “bankrupted” through label contracts. Courtney love is still worth millions, and was only near bankruptcy as she got into some legal disputes over her share of Nirvana royalties.

        The labels can certainly use their power position to offer near break-even contracts to the myriad of artists willing to sign on. And like all human interaction, there are dick moves made (like what happened to Jojo). However, artists are not going bankrupt because the RIAA is milking them, it happens because they are not watching their finances. Sometimes labels overstep contracts, and if you feel like burning an industry full of bridges you can sue them.

        “Which is already too draconian as evidenced by the high statutory damages that are out of line with reality…”

        I agree the damages are… unrealistically high. But that doesn’t mean the laws themselves are unrealistic.

        “When has any government entity ever been good with regulation?”

        The government used to work as fast as the rest of the world. They still move at what is now an outdated pace. By the time they decide to act, they are months behind the situation. Our judicial system as well: we have multi-billion dollar patent cases that aren’t settled until the patents are all obsolete.

        The government has never been perfect, but until now at least they were keeping up.

        “But how long would it have taken for them to learn to compete and make their own filesharing network instead of try to throw technology back into the stone age?”

        That is their decision, and as long as our government backs those copyright laws this will be the case. Copyright law is not the stone age, it is the present. file-sharing may be the future, but for now companies are going to function under the premise that the government will act to preserve copyrights in their current form.

        It’s 2am, I gotta sleep before trying to write any more.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IZ5BM5GNLA54OADSWGSXAMA7SY Jay

          “Well, someone has to keep the radio industry honest, I just don’t know why it isn’t more heavily regulated if the government requires that I the artist join a PRO to get my royalties.”

          Not really… The labels have payola, and there’s also the Copyright Board. The problems of radio is too much control on the sides of the larger labels. When do you think you’ll hear popular songs such as Jamendo’s top 100 on the radio? Honestly, having PROs causes more problems for startups than it tries to help solve. In my view, I see them as the bureaucrat. They do nothing but milk the system instead of helping make it better. I was so glad to hear EMI dump ASCAP, though that won’t matter if EMI is bought by Warner… *sigh*

          “However, artists are not going bankrupt because the RIAA is milking them, it happens because they are not watching their finances. Sometimes labels overstep contracts, and if you feel like burning an industry full of bridges you can sue them.”

          I agree that you have to watch your finances, but I think you’re undermining the amount of control a label tries to exert through copyright law among other laws. You should look up how 50 Cent has a pirate website: His own website!

          Same goes for Eminem who had to sue his label to get the proceeds for iTunes downloads. The entire supposed problem with piracy stems to labels wanting to control how artists have to come to them as the middlemen. The smaller independents are experimenting more, and that’s paying dividends in how many choices people have. But think about how much effort the RIAA did in pushing against Limewire, Grokster, and Napster while piracy has continued unabated, in newer forms. The better option is just have them make their own sites and stop worrying about piracy by providing more legal options. Make better contracts that are fairer instead of .00005% for the musician as given through copyright law.

          “But that doesn’t mean the laws themselves are unrealistic.”

          They’ve been made that way with the DMCA doing damn near unconstitutional takedowns, the NET Act with its high penalties among other things…

          “The government used to work as fast as the rest of the world. They still move at what is now an outdated pace. By the time they decide to act, they are months behind the situation. Our judicial system as well: we have multi-billion dollar patent cases that aren’t settled until the patents are all obsolete.”

          Bureacracy is always the bane of democracy. The fact that we have a lot of criminal cases filled with drug charges actually helps to keep copyright law from proceeding at a very slow pace. The fact remains that the patent system is beyond broken and there’s very little else to work on it until we solve other problems with our judicial system (namely our failed drug policy in the US)

          “The government has never been perfect, but until now at least they were keeping up.”

          Uhm… No, we’ve stepped backwards with the selective enforcement, the higher prices for goods, and less competition. If you provide continual service, it’s the best way to beat piracy. If you make your product into the end all be all, it’s very difficult to find ways to make money. That’s what the labels and the government are going to slowly learn. But backing up to the government for assistance is still a large problem that has paid little in dividends to those that want it. Think about all of the people on Capitol Hill that side with the industry. Think about all of the laws used to deter piracy. Now ask a question, has it made people more likely to buy from the labels or hurt their image?

          “Copyright law is not the stone age, it is the present. file-sharing may be the future, but for now companies are going to function under the premise that the government will act to preserve copyrights in their current form”

          Copyright is slowly becoming a memory. The ones that lean on it as the only way to make money are neglecting the new models that have taken off. Things such as Kickstarter for crowdsource funding, Flattr for promoting articles and microtransactions, Youtube for revenue sharing… Copyright isn’t needed for the newer ways to produce and distribute content. We’re no longer in the 1980s. We have “kids” today that believe in free songs, and have more money at concerts. Copyright has already caused a number of woes, such as RIAA raids on DJs, the litigation routes that ended poorly for the music industry, and really bad lawsuits for the MPAA (Hotfile lawsuit, anyone?).

          It would be better for them to just focus on themselves, instead of what everyone else is doing.

  • guest

    The fact is the record labels aren’t losing money, in fact the recording industry has been recording record profits for the last 5 years, they’ve adapted to a market place that includes P2P downloading. They keep touting claims that downloading is hurting their bottom line and to a point thats true, but what they seem to really be doing is attempting to hold onto a monopoly that is under threat from the independent artists who are using the system to self distribute and self promote their own work.

    Starving artist brought up the industry line that support doesn’t come in the form of buying a shirt, but instead buying a recording does, because it supports more people and it helps the artist get paid. Personally I have met many bands and artists that support P2P and open copyright sources, simply it helps the bands get more exposure, and what are they giving away? The lowest quality format of their music. Most people aren’t going to download the larger sized lossless formats they are just going to download what is quick and easy, and if it’s good they share it with their friends by gifting them another copy. Suddenly a band from LA that doesn’t have much money for promotion and distribution has the potential to have sold out shows on a nationwide tour, they may not make a lot on thier first tour, but the potential is there to increase their exposure again and encourage people to pay for a product that does support them, be it a CD, LP, or Tshirt.

    This independence brought about by the internet and file sharing is leading to a democratizing of the industry and is breaking the monopoly that the major labels have had for years, which is why the indusrty is not only trying to stop illegal downloading, but trying to shut down the sites and programs that people use to download, it prevents access to a means of easy distribution and promotion that the independents require to achieve any kind of success. At the same time industry leaders can be found making comments that attempt to demoralize independent artsts by calling their music crap, and noise and refering to the musicians themselves as just hobbiest. It makes the claim that the only way to legitimize your music is by signing to a label. Thats just wrong.

    For every one story someone hears about a band making it big on a label there are 100 other of an artist who got screwed over by a label. In fact most of the artists out there don’t even register on a labels radar anyway, what makes now different from even 15 years ago is now those artists have an opportunity to be heard outside of their region. How can anything that does that be a bad thing.

  • Mike Z

    I understand the point of the article, but I think it is an incomplete point. The author says:

    “The upfront cost of any first product is entirely irrelevant in a functioning market.”

    I disagree. All businesses no matter if they are selling digital items or physical items have fixed costs they need to cover. It is unreasonable to expect a typical business to cover all of its fixed costs on the sale of the very first product or even the first few thousand products manufactured/produced in some cases.

    I also think the water example is not realistic. No company would have the protection of the government to force you to buy their water…at best the system they use to clean the water would be patented. If another company came up with a new way to purify the water, then they should be able to compete with the original company and drive the cost down. If water did not need to be purified anymore, then the company needs to change its business model or go out of business (nobody buys typewriters anymore).

  • Clydebane

    While it’s true that the industry buried it’s head in the sand while technology was reshaping the world around them, the bottom line is, when you download a copy of a song, it’s NOT just 1′s and 0′s. You don’t print out the code on paper and derive enjoyment by reading it aloud while driving, or working out, or throwing a party, right?

    Part of my problem with the whole premise of defending people who download is that it almost assumes that everyone has some inherent right to be entertained, and that is simply not so. If you want to listen to music for free, how about spending the time, money, and energy and learn to play an instrument? That way, you can listen to any music you want to hear, anytime you want to hear it, with no worries about copyrights or DRM or anything else. If you aren’t willing to do that, then you are NOT entitled to listen to music anytime you want without paying someone for their time and effort.

    Not to mention, I simply do NOT get the whole philosophy of, “Now that technology allows me to break the law in the comfort of my own home, the laws need to be changed so that I’m not a criminal.” If you own a gun, then you have the technology to kill someone in the comfort of your own home, but that doesn’t mean it should be made legal.

    Bottom line is, yes, the tech exists, and yes, people are going to download/pirate or whatever. But do NOT try to sell my this line of horse s*** about how it’s your right to do it. If you don’t hold the copyright, then you don’t have the right to make copies, it’s that simple. Whether you’re giving the copies away or selling them is irrelevant. So steal if you want. Maybe you’ll get caught, maybe you won’t. But if you DO get caught, then pay your fine, do your time, and stfu. Don’t whine about how what you did, “shouldn’t have been illegal in the first place,” and try to blame the person you stole from for the wrongdoing.

    • guest

      It’s not about the industry simply fighting against file sharing, it’s also about the industry pushing for new laws that violate personal freedoms. With force takedown measures only needing approval by the attorney general, all a company, or individual has to do is claim a site has infringing material for approval for a takedown notice to be issued. This should worry everyone not just file sharers. This can and already has resulted in sites being taken down not for infringing content but for political messages.

      The RIAA and their counterparts around ther world are pushing for new laws that limit peoples ability to legally make copies, like digital lock circumvention laws, that override laws that now apply to fair use and fair dealing. Not to mention pushing to eliminate file sharing sites and programs all together regardless of what they are being used for.

      The problem is it’s not the artists that are complaining, in fact from what I can tell artists support file sharing as a means to get their music out there. The people that are complaining are the recording companies. For years they’ve had a license to print money. It was very hard for an independent band to get radio play, it was hard to get broad distribution, and therefore difficult to gain exposure outside of the artists home region. The internet opened up the possibility of competition from outside the industry, it allows independent artists to compete with label artists on equal footing. Which is why the industry switched from suing the fans (which proved a huge public relations disaster) and instead began suing the hosting sites and technology producers that allow content to be distributed. It’s not about preventing piracy, it’s about shutting out a competition and only allowing content to be distributed through industry sanctioned models, which ultimately means they control the product, and method.

      This argument is backed up by the one sided acts such as DMCA, COICA, and now on a gloabal level ACTA.

      While I am not a copyright abolishonist, I do support a balanced approach something neither extreme can come to terms with. Nine inch nails, Radiohead and others have already proved it’s possible to make money by giving away a product for free. Why can’t the recording industry?

      • Anonymous

        First off, well said. Secondly, this might be a personal opinion (but I believe reviews by critics essentially said the same thing), the offerings by Radiohead and Nine Inch Nails (as well as others) were amazing. In an artistic sense and in a business sense.

      • Ven

        Please stop trying to use NiN and Radiohead as poster children:

        - NiN was started in 1988; Reznor split from the labels in 2007. Basically, he spent 19 years building a huge reputation and fanbase by using the big label industry. Rolling Stone considers him to be in the top 100 all time music artists. Sold over 150 million albums, nominated over a dozen Grammies. He sold all 2500 copies of a $300 special edition Ghosts album in 3 days.
        - Radiohead was founded in 1985, on a label by 1991, and released their first label-free music in 2007. Once again, a band that rode the fame and fortune train of the labels until they had the fanbase to do what they wanted. Currently they are selling remixes on vinyl of an album that was only released on their band site.

        Those are some great artists, but would never came close to that kind of success without the labels. They both did some fairly expensive things in those self-released recordings and their publicity.

        While I agree that our government needs to carefully consider the loss of freedoms in the fight against infringement, I do think many artists would like to see rampant illicit file-sharing stamped out. Artists stand to make a great deal of money through companies like Tunecore + Itunes, and most of them are aware of many other controlled methods of distribution.

        If artists choose to get a leg up and distribute on BT, good for them. But somewhere in the process of protecting freedoms, lets not stomp out perfectly reasonable tools for artists.

  • BASiQ

    100% SPOT on. It is an EPIC article. Completely says it all!

  • Guest

    Fact: you can’t force anyone to do shit if you don’t have power/guns.

  • Timo

    @All the pseudo-artists whining here,
    Tell us who you are so I don’t download anything from you. I’m a pirate with principles – No downloads for dick head “artists” stuck in the past willing to fuck freedom and technological advancement in the name of an outdated business practice. Get your fans somewhere else.

    • guest

      I’m an artist, I give away all of my stuff for free using a creative commons license.

  • Basti

    “People copy because they can, because it is associated with freedom and because it is in human nature to share.”

    I think this one is right on the point! I download a lot as well. But i share some of my money as well to those artist that are working hard for their good music, game, movies and so on (if the product is good I will buy the original). Otherwise the sharing would be kind of, one way traffic only! And that is in my opinion, very egoistic!

  • Basti

    “People copy because they can, because it is associated with freedom and because it is in human nature to share.”

    I think this one is right on the point! I download a lot as well. But i share some of my money as well to those artist that are working hard for their good music, game, movies and so on (if the product is good I will buy the original). Otherwise the sharing would be kind of, one way traffic only! And that is in my opinion, very egoistic!

  • Basti

    “People copy because they can, because it is associated with freedom and because it is in human nature to share.”

    I think this one is right on the point! I download a lot as well. But i share some of my money as well to those artist that are working hard for their good music, game, movies and so on (if the product is good I will buy the original). Otherwise the sharing would be kind of, one way traffic only! And that is in my opinion, very egoistic!

  • Basti

    “People copy because they can, because it is associated with freedom and because it is in human nature to share.”

    I think this one is right on the point! I download a lot as well. But i share some of my money as well to those artist that are working hard for their good music, game, movies and so on (if the product is good I will buy the original). Otherwise the sharing would be kind of, one way traffic only! And that is in my opinion, very egoistic!

  • Reno

    Okay, then let’s share some food, gasoline, houses, clothes, concertickets, etc as well.

  • DANNY

    Well I bet the mafiaa are happy that Amy Winehouse(R.I.P)Is dead, her CD’s are flying out the door atm!! a little off topic, but again it shows them parasites for what they are!!

  • Kemp

    If an artist is easily replaced, it means you aren’t good enough with the work you do.

    Who would replace the Foo Fighters for example?

    What about Pollock, DaVinci or others for some more historical examples? Do we recognize the name of the countless of thousands of other painters during their times? Do you remember the thousands of random rock bands that came out during the 90′s? No, because they weren’t that good or applied or what have you.

    Your creation is only worth what others are willing to give you for it, which is basically the definition of Art. Besides that, creating Art should be it’s own reward whereas jobs with higher financial compensation should be those with less rewarding tasks.

    Someone who cleans toilets should be banking more than an artist in my opinion, because the work of the Artist is his own reward, while the Janitor is going to clean the same shitty toilet tomorrow.

    Same with accountants and other equally boring, soul-sucking professions. Creating work you want to make while playing the music you want and having people adore you for it? That sounds like payment in itself my friends.

    Besides, if you even got laid just one time due to some chick or dude having the hots for you being in a band or whatever, that is something those professions will never get to have on top of that. No chicks are out there screaming for some accountant’s cock the more he crunches numbers.. are there?

    Seriously, baaaw to someone else about how hard your life is. I feel bad for those other poor fucks who live their lives performing the menial yet necessary tasks that will the them with a life of little to nothing to look back on positively during their career.

    I’m a poor struggling artist myself and I could give a fuck less if i ever have more than a G in my bank account, all I want to do is keep doing what I do to just get by. The appreciation others have for my hard work and the ability to be able to do this instead of working a retail job is my reward.

  • Guess

    starving read TF’s article on how to sell a million records and still owe $500k, a LOT of people would happily pay the artists directly and not the labels, part of this is down to how much the lables have ripped people off over the years, people remember the costs of concerts and LPs before CDs and remember just how much the lables jacked up the prices after CDs came out claiming “new technology” look at say plasma TV prices from when they first came out and were “new technology” and now, back then $30000 or more for one, now days $1000, thats an example how prices for new technology work, it drops down after a while, look at the prices of album CDs when they came out and now and the retail price is still $14.99, then look at the prices of albums when they launch and then say a year down the line, a lot of them are maybe $5 in some places, so ask what the value of the album actualy is? $14.99? or $5?
    a decade ago the studios and labels were offered a preportional system, which was basicly the idea of a $6 tax on all internet connections being split between the studios and labels, similar to the one used when a film gets shown on a tv station, look at netflix and say that system doesn’t work.
    to quote the wiki definition of properganda….

    “Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis”

    first to do with that is the industry stated “album sales are down year on year…”
    ever considered people are changing their buying habits because their tired of forking out $14.99 for an album that has maybe a couple of songs they like on there?

    then look at the repeated studies which have found the “pirates” are actualy the bigger buyers of legaly obtained music, if the industry adapted instead of living in the past desperatly clinging onto their license to print money they may actualy find they start making more, if they stopped forcing artists to sign over their works to the label and took a smaller percentage artists WOULD get more out of it, spotify was a good system, then the labels got greedy and forced them to cut the times down and now there’s a lot of people leaving the service and going else where, some also going back to pirating again, again the labels own greed has sc**wed them over, goto a perportianal system, and the same system that was in place for audio cassets but on all digital players you loose the issue of copywrong completely, labels and the artists etc get paid and you find more people share copys of songs with friends, expose them to more artists and the artists gain more fans and still again the artists get paid and the label earns money.
    their current stratergy and systems are deeply flawed and all they will end up doing is driving them into the welcoming arms of the blackhat community who will come up with a completely anonamous way of decentralised sharing that you CAN NOT trace or track people on which will allow the blackhat comunity to do a lot of illegal and unsavoury things using peoples PCs, bot nets are already a issue, this will just make things worse.

  • Guess

    starving read TF’s article on how to sell a million records and still owe $500k, a LOT of people would happily pay the artists directly and not the labels, part of this is down to how much the lables have ripped people off over the years, people remember the costs of concerts and LPs before CDs and remember just how much the lables jacked up the prices after CDs came out claiming “new technology” look at say plasma TV prices from when they first came out and were “new technology” and now, back then $30000 or more for one, now days $1000, thats an example how prices for new technology work, it drops down after a while, look at the prices of album CDs when they came out and now and the retail price is still $14.99, then look at the prices of albums when they launch and then say a year down the line, a lot of them are maybe $5 in some places, so ask what the value of the album actualy is? $14.99? or $5?
    a decade ago the studios and labels were offered a preportional system, which was basicly the idea of a $6 tax on all internet connections being split between the studios and labels, similar to the one used when a film gets shown on a tv station, look at netflix and say that system doesn’t work.
    to quote the wiki definition of properganda….

    “Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis”

    first to do with that is the industry stated “album sales are down year on year…”
    ever considered people are changing their buying habits because their tired of forking out $14.99 for an album that has maybe a couple of songs they like on there?

    then look at the repeated studies which have found the “pirates” are actualy the bigger buyers of legaly obtained music, if the industry adapted instead of living in the past desperatly clinging onto their license to print money they may actualy find they start making more, if they stopped forcing artists to sign over their works to the label and took a smaller percentage artists WOULD get more out of it, spotify was a good system, then the labels got greedy and forced them to cut the times down and now there’s a lot of people leaving the service and going else where, some also going back to pirating again, again the labels own greed has sc**wed them over, goto a perportianal system, and the same system that was in place for audio cassets but on all digital players you loose the issue of copywrong completely, labels and the artists etc get paid and you find more people share copys of songs with friends, expose them to more artists and the artists gain more fans and still again the artists get paid and the label earns money.
    their current stratergy and systems are deeply flawed and all they will end up doing is driving them into the welcoming arms of the blackhat community who will come up with a completely anonamous way of decentralised sharing that you CAN NOT trace or track people on which will allow the blackhat comunity to do a lot of illegal and unsavoury things using peoples PCs, bot nets are already a issue, this will just make things worse.

  • nkari

    This is how PART of the future will be..

    http://www.pioneerone.tv/

  • Trololololololololo

    if its not about the money…. ……..then why they sue for money? arse hole

  • Anonymous

    In my opinion digital copying is not stealing, period. It maybe illegal in various places around the world (certainly not all), however we have been brainwashed into the terms “piracy” and “theft” in relation to downloading and sharing digital content. The law doesn’t equate the two so why does everyone else? I’m more surprised at the number of active file sharers who buy into the hysteria themselves.

    There is a general fallacy in equating each download of a piece of work with 100% economic loss for the record label, artist, etc and this is just not the case. Only a fraction of those downloads would have been purchases in the old world (let’s not forget “home taping is killing music”). Counter to the image the RIAA tries to portray, file sharers are some of the best customers of content. Artists and labels need to face the fact that whatever “legitimate” copies they sell is likely the addressable market they have and not blame file sharing as the reason the sales weren’t better. Even if the RIAA was able to stop 100% of file sharing, I would wager music sales would increase only slightly (if not drop due to a backlash).

    The record label scam is now out in the open for music fans to see. The $1.29 you pay for that hit song is going to Apple, the record label and to pay down the advance the band owes. Send me directly to the site you host where 100% of the money goes to you then I’ll buy your song. For those up and coming artists, you will be damn lucky if your content becomes popular on file sharing networks – you’ve only made it when your stuff is worth downloading. You’ll get what’s due in time,. In the old world you’d have died poor and unknown at least in the new world, you may die poor and relatively known.

  • Lhenry

    apples grow on trees – you own the tree so you sell the apples – someone takes the apples without paying and eats them – what do you do to get the apples back? if the apples are good then next time they might well pay for them – how about free samples? – life’s too short peeps

  • Lhenry

    apples grow on trees – you own the tree so you sell the apples – someone takes the apples without paying and eats them – what do you do to get the apples back? if the apples are good then next time they might well pay for them – how about free samples? – life’s too short peeps

  • Guest

    Not all artists go on the road and tour: radio and records made that optional; some don’t even have a “band”: multi-tracking made that un-necessary, too. Just keep those things in mind when saying “if you want to support an artist, go to the concert and buy a T-shirt”.

  • Anonymous

    I like to buy music and games and movies but I don´t like how the big companys act.

    In Sweden I have to pay a fee for every GB HDD or empty CD even though I will only put my own pictures or music or movies on it. Why should I do that many wonders and with that say to themselves well then I have paid and can download too because I have payed a fee.

    I personally like to pay for a godd game or music etc but then I want a good service.
    Nowdays in gaming industry they put a lot of new rules

    1. Need to be online to start my game which means that when I go on vacation I can´t play it.

    2. If I play the game and want to sell it then they force a fee on the one buying it to reactivate it.

    3. Installs diffrent rootkits and DRM´s that most ppl don´t know about and can stop where the companys can invade my privacy.

    I would love to buy directly from the artist and think that for example Itunes seems to have find a service that works but I think it would be even better if artists started up their own service.

    We should not forget that the same lables and companys steal when thay can like for instance read about how Sqaure/Enix got the studio GRIN to go under just buy not paying for work they already had done.

    Many of the artists also seem to think they have a right to exist well maybe you are not good enough as said higher up sometimes you go to a boring job to pay the bills and then you create as a hobby and if you are lucky you can make a living out of it but its not a right to do that.

    Who really owns the stuff anyway? Who came upp with the c accord? Is that his/her property then that all musichans steal?

    Everything goes forward and you got to run if you want to stay in the race.

    Imho its about big companys trying to go around laws and censor the information exchange and thats bad.

    And why can´t I return media I don´t like. Maybe the new record is something totally diffrent and I don´t like it. This game for instance Braveheart was unplayble and ubi even stole a piratecrack to fix their game but still I could not return the games.

    The creative bit is complaining with some good points but they still want special rules that don´t apply anywhere else.

    Big companys labels and artists steal every day from smaller ones but the small ones can´t fight back and go to court so even though piracy is not ok do not throw balls of steel in a rubber house.

  • Anonymous

    Would also like to add that everyone D/L may have diffrent reasons.

    I have D/L mostly stuff because of

    1. It does not air or sell here.

    2. I have been online since the bbs time and have a lot of friends around the world and if we chat and all talk about the new “X” I want to be in that discussion too but it can be up to 6 months before I can get “X”. Its getting better and better nowdays.

    I don´t think I am right when I D/L and don´t pay if I have played a whole game or listen to a album a lot and try to buy it and I still think I spend more then most as said it is often so that ppl that pirate are more intressded so they also buy more.

  • The Dude

    I feel as though we’re in the dark ages of the internet… it’s very depressing. I dream of a future without copyright.

  • RIAA got RICK’rolld…haha

    Rick, three words.

    YOU. ARE. AWESOME.

  • Anon

    Copyright is ridiculous in the form it currently has. The only real way for the copyright holders to maintain their control without sending us back into the pre-internet age is to institute mind control since the brain is a copying device. You cannot simultaneously support this insane system and argue that copyright holders do not also own our memories. If they do not own our memories they cannot be said to own any of the copies of information that are produced, even if it is by them. Why should an artist be entitled to make money producing art of any kind? Are they worse off if they have to do something else to avoid starving? It is not as if many of the more famous artists of the classical period were not also engineers or practitioners of what we would call science in the modern era. What we need to ensure is that artists are given credit for their work, not that they or a cabal of financiers have control over distribution channels.

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  • coolguy77

    99 cents IS NOT CHEAP!! Maybe if you’re a fool who buys one song a week then cool. But people usually want more than one song. and those 99 cents can add up. Whoever started this blog is a dope

  • bears in the woods

    With the non-bottled water, there is also always the chance that there is an animal shitting somewhere upstream, and you can get sick or even die…

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