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Judge Stops BitTorrent Trolls From Harassing ISP Account Holders

A judge in the United States has denied attempts by plaintiffs in three BitTorrent mass lawsuits to obtain the identities of individuals behind IP addresses. Chief United States Magistrate Judge Leo T. Sorokin said the plaintiffs had shown no interest in presenting a plan that would identify actual infringers and were instead relying on an action that “..smacks of a bad faith effort to harass the third-party subscriber.”

The three lawsuits in question, all presented by the same attorney, follow a familiar pattern. Some time ago the copyright holders in the cases – Discount Video Center and Patrick Collins – gathered IP addresses in BitTorrent swarms that they claim are connected to copyright infringement of their adult content.

Of course, none of the plaintiffs know the identity of the alleged infringers, only the IP addresses in the swarms. This is problematic. While the IP addresses can usually be traced back to a certain ISP account linked to a bill payer, that person is not necessarily the infringer and only infringers can be held liable.

Nevertheless, the plaintiffs embarked on a discovery process in order to replace the original ‘John Does’ on the complaint with the names of the ISP account holders, not the actual infringers.

“The Plaintiffs in these cases evidence no interest in [identifying the infringers]. They have not proposed a discovery plan aimed at identifying the infringers they have sued,” writes Chief United States Magistrate Judge Leo T. Sorokin.

“Rather, the Plaintiffs request that the Court order disclosure of the third-party subscribers’ names so that the Plaintiffs might settle or dismiss their cases on an informal basis.”

Judge Sorokin goes on to explain that not only will the discovery requested by the plaintiffs fail to identify the actual infringers, but the plaintiffs have failed to request leave to take depositions as they said they would during a hearing earlier in the year.

“[..] The omission of any written request for depositions in the Plaintiffs’ renewed motions for discovery speaks volumes about the Plaintiffs’ lack of interest in actually litigating these cases,” writes Judge Sorokin.

Then what follows in the ruling is a shining example of how rightsholders have to fish for additional information beyond an IP address in order to identify an actual infringer. The Judge notes that not only did the copyright holders fail to put forward a plan that could do so, but they were not able to explain to the court what information they would need to make that a possibility either.

“Well, I don’t think there is a specific set of information we need,” plaintiffs’ attorney explained. “I’d like to keep this as least burdensome as possible and as least costly as possible. Opening communications between me and the Does or me and the subscribers is, I think, the best course of action.”

In other words, give me the name of a subscriber and once I have that I’ll force them to either pay up, implicate someone else, or suffer an extremely expensive lawsuit. But the Judge was having none of it.

“The Plaintiffs’ proposal – i.e., that the Court permit the Plaintiffs to subpoena the names
of the subscribers and that the Court then leave it to the Plaintiffs to figure out the rest pursuant to informal communications – is unacceptable,” he wrote. “The governing case law permits ex parte discovery in the presence of a discovery plan tailored to the identification of the defendants [emphasis ours].

Judge Sorokin also clearly understands that interest in actually taking a named case to court is virtually nil, and that all plaintiffs’ are interested in are cash settlements.

“Plaintiff Patrick Collins, Inc. has sued at least 11,570 John Doe Defendants in litigation around the country without ever serving a single defendant,” the Judge wrote.

In the Discount Video case, the Judge also had harsh words. He said that the company had an intent to file a complaint against a Doe, even though it has no idea of the infringer’s identity.

“Such an action smacks of a bad faith effort to harass the third-party subscriber by causing him or her to expend further legal fees in a brand new action, which would merely repeat all that has occurred to date,” he wrote.

“The course of action the Plaintiff has stated it intends to pursue also suggests an improper effort to engage in judge shopping and evidences a disregard for the Court’s limited public resources.”

Judge Sorokin concludes with an attack on plaintiffs’ tendency to say one thing and then do another, including suing infringers but then informing subscribers that they had been sued, saying they would hold subscribers secondarily liable but then backing away, and then promising to litigate cases but never doing so.

All things considered the Judge concluded by denying the request for ex-parte discovery.

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  • Guest

    Maybe the same action can be applied to Copyright Trolls who pester ISP’s to get account holder information.

    • Abyssal_warrior

      Did you even read the article? It was about copyright trolls who use courts to pester ISP’s to get account holder information.

  • Guest

    This action by the BitTorrent trolls are a complete waste of time if the 6 strikes will be implemented.

    • lulz

      fuck off 6 strikes will never be implemented.

      • Eeeaddict

        somebody seems pretty butthurt

      • Sketch

        man I hope your right bro……in any case i got a bad ass VPN from blazinseedboxes, now i can access any blocked site, or hit any torrent, i recommend everyone get a VPN from somewhere…..im invisible to all but a deep packet inspection from my ISP, and i dont think they will without a court order, but i could be wrong on that.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Um…if you have a VPN with even basic security, your ISP won’t be able to perform a deep packet inspection at all, unless they hack your computer or the VPN’s server. Not even if military intelligence was trying to hack the connection mid-point.

      • Tc43

        6 strikes is actually a good thing… Anybody with sense will protect themselves… Once the policy is enacted then the punishment will be loss of internet as opposed to large payouts, no money coming in, no real interest in pursuing.

        • theonlyone

          It does not stop the trolls from a civil suit. It actually increase the chance of being sued.

    • AndrewHrubik

      HORSESHIT!

      The six strikes law suits only one party. The copyright troll. These companies misidentify their own copyrights by the thousands every day. What makes you think they’ll do any better with a law like that one their side?

      IMO these companies would have to demonstrate to the people that they can successfully implement a solution that would identify their legal issues with a 0% error rate before any law like that would be acceptable. If even one video is taken down inappropriately or a citizen must incur even $0.01 cost due to misidentified copyright trolling the company should lose the copyright they are attempting to protect in perpetuity for their crime.

      Companies should be expected to bear the same burden they ask of the people. If not then their requests should fall on deaf ears.

      • Guest

        It seems that you have mistaken in what i have said. My point was that it would be a complete waste of time and useless for these BitTorrent trolls if the 6 strikes are implemented as they would not be able to get the details of the account holder and threaten/extort money on a baseless threat to pay up or face legal action because the 6 strikes will replace what they are doing. As for harvesting IP addresses we all know that IP address do not identify who the infringer is.

      • Guest

        No. It’s not just for the copyright troll. It’s a system for all people that want to have a system that is better capable of protecting their copyright and not all of those people are trolls. How ignorant are you?

        It’s wrong to violate the copyright of others and if you don’t want to listen, then it is time to introduce something that is more effective in telling you to stop.

        • Fredrika

          > “It’s wrong to violate the copyright of others..”

          Actually, on the contrary it is often argued that it is the right thing to do, to disobey illegitimate legislation, such as the non-profit parts of the copyright monopoly, which just as the legislation in dictatorships don’t follow the rules for how legitimate legislation must be drafted, regarding proved need, function and proportionality.

          And in reality around a billion pirates don’t feel it’s wrong to disobey a legislative monopoly’s intrusion into their property. They simply follow the free market rules and basic sane capitalism, and manufactures copies themselves with their own property, instead of wasting money buying something that is worth nothing.

          But maybe you argue as they do in dictatorships and Judge Dredd, that the law should be followed out of principle? Maybe you just as communists are out of principle against capitalism and the free market?

        • AndrewHrubik

          Imagine if the copyright trolls had their own 6 strikes law to abide by. They’d be out of business in about 5 mins due to the amount of false accusations and mistakes they make on a daily basis.

          Perhaps these people need to take a hard look at their business model to see if it’s driving their piracy problem.

        • Guest

          @AndrewHrubik

          It’s not the fault of a perfectly valid business model. The consumers are the cause of all trouble.

          People will illegally download you products for free if they are available to everyone on every corner and actually never consider to to pay for them (just to save money). It doesn’t depend on the quality of the product. They do it just because there is a “free of charge” option and nothing else. That’s plain wrong.

        • Fredrika

          > “It’s not the fault of a perfectly valid business model.”

          Trying to sell something that anyone can manufacture themselves for free is not a valid business model? It’s the most resource wasteful business model that exists? Do you know nothing of economics?

          > “The consumers are the cause of all trouble.”

          Most certainly not? The consumers acts as any sane capitalist would, and manufacture the goods they want for free instead of buying it at an overprice that only exists because of an illegitimate legislative monopoly.

          The cause of all trouble is the copyright monopoly, or the business that has failed to adopt to reality, and the fact that the product they previously sold now is obsolete and meaningless because of technological advancements. Their product adds no value to society any more, so by all economical rules it should be relegated to the graveyard.

          > “People will illegally download you products for free..”

          You seem confused. The product is what you can buy, own and sell, and that’s not the creative work, that would be the good or service, in this case the copy.

          But the thing people download is not your product, it’s information describing the physical patterns on the uploader’s physical property, and that’s his good, not the creators or copyright holders.

          > “..if they are available to everyone on every corner and actually never consider to to pay for them (just to save money).”

          Yes, manufacturing items you want yourself instead of wasting money on buying them is a concept that’s been around since the dawn of ages.

          > “It doesn’t depend on the quality of the product.”

          That’s another thing, usually what piracy offers is superior to what is sold. Why in gods name would anyone buy a product that offers worse quality than what you can manufacture yourself for free?

          > “They do it just because there is a “free of charge” option and nothing else. That’s plain wrong.”

          Saving money is wrong? That’s a rather weird opinion which basically the entire world would disagree with. If you feel it’s right to waste your money, go a head, but don’t try to force your rather stupid lifestyle on others.

        • SpqS

          Yep, there are times when those shared videos are better than the expensive product which is only available to get for money.

          And there are times when such product didn’t exist in the market
          but somebody was able to get a copy and simply decided to share it for free.

        • MadAsASnake

          OK. Why not devise a system that accuses the right people?

        • BuddhaFacePalmed

          All hail the kick-ass little gurl known as Bubbles… I salute you Fredrika

    • joexxx

      6 strikes carry no legal weight. It’s an agreement between private parties.

  • Anonymous

    if only more judges could see what these trolls are up to. give them an inch and they want a mile.

  • http://torrentfreak.com/ Rob8urcakes

    I never thought I’d see the day where I wrote I see a sensible, well-reasoned judgment by a level-headed judge in the good ol’ USofA.

    But here it is. I can only hope that it sets a legal precedent US-wide that can be used in Courts on similar cases.

    Well done Chief United States Magistrate Judge Leo T. Sorokin – you’ve done us ALL proud. Thank you.

    • Guest

      and he has russian family, lol I can be proud for my country.. even if it’s only in that small way :(

  • 1hhh1

    Makes sense

  • ZAndooo

    Its about time the kangaroo courts got it right! Bravo!
    Privacy-Guyz.tk

  • Guest

    Hey Anon, won’t you come tell us how the MAFIAA is winning? =D

    Also, I’m pretty sure this ruling has set a precedent that will doom the six strikes scheme.

    • Anyone

      since the six strike scheme is a private agreement between ISPs and the MAFIAA it doesn’t have to follow the law as such
      so this will probably have no effect on that, except that maybe the ISPs wake up and stop selling out their customers

      • Scary_Devil_Monastery

        That is correct, it won’t have to follow the law.

        However, that being the case, if the six-strikes scheme does affect innocent people (and it can hardly avoid to do so), then what we have is a very good case for a class-action suit performed by account holders towards their ISP.

        And that being the case, it won’t be long until the ISP’s most eager to fulfill the six-strike regime will be the first ones to back out.

        • Guest

          Assuming account holders are responsible under the terms and conditions of their ISP for the security of their wf-fi how could they bring a class action law suit if they are found to be in breach by not securing their wi-fi?

        • MadAsASnake

          @Guest

          They are trying to figure that out in the UK DEA – part of that is to define such a process that would be reasonable, acheivable and effective. OfCom can’t do it so it looks like the DEA will go live without it. If OfCom can’t figure out how to “secure” wifi (past the obvious) then how can anyone else meet that standard? It’s standard troll fare to demand something that is gauranteed to fail.

        • Mystik

          Unfortunately most of these companies have added clauses in the TOS to forbid class action lawsuits. That clause was found to be legal already (very annoying)

          Not all TOS terms can be enforced. You cannot by contract take away something that someone has a legal right to.

        • UraPhake

          I just wanted to point out that there isn’t any law requiring a subscriber to have a secure Wi-Fi. Your ISP may want you to do that but it’s not a lawful mandate that you abide by their wishes.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          @Guest

          By simply proving that the account holder in 99% of the cases can not be responsible according to the terms proposed by the ISP’s.

          I might as well ask you how well GM would have done had it turned out that the vehicle owners could not have been held responsible for what the vehicle was doing in 99% of the times where the vehicle performed an unsound operation. But GM decided to recall the vehicle if an unsound operation was performed.

          The answer is of course that every court in the land would decide that GM did not have the right to override normal consumer protection law that way.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          @UraPhake

          There is in some nations, most notably Germany. Said law probably will not survive any serious investigation since in 99% of the cases, a consumer can neither guarantee nor secure their access.

          That is, of course, why this has to be a “voluntary” agreement between US ISP’s and MPAA/RIAA stakeholders. US law, though watered down in many places, has rather stringent precedent as to how 3rd-party liability can be applied.

          And of course, in the US if your wifi isn’t secure that means any challenge made by the ISP that you, as an account holder, would be held liable will fall due to reasonable doubt.

          @Mystik

          Wasn’t aware of that, but either that simply means there will be thousands of court cases made individually – even worse for the ISP’s concerned – or the market just opened for any ISP not willing to enter the six-strikes plan.

        • Mystik

          @Scary_Devil_Monastery

          It was all changed in the TOS from Class action or lawsuits to Arbitration. Where you guessed it, companies, who pay the bill, win most of the time. Yes more and more rights seem to vanish poof!

          Read this for more nfo.

          http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/04/scotus-rules-att-can-force-arbitration-block-class-action-suits/

  • http://fightcopyrighttrolls.com/ SJD
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  • NaziAmerica

    Finally.. judges are starting to grow balls and brains… about damn time.

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  • Who

    “effort to harass the third-party subscriber”
    well what the hell is this 6 strikes crap then?
    its called harassment/invasion of privacy no matter how you look @ it.

    • joexxx

      6 strikes carry no legal weight.
      It’s an agreement between private parties. You can choose not to participate.

  • Anon

    Fucking renegade judge, dooming Internet freedoms for everyone. This made me so mad I actually had to pull Nejtillpirater off my industry phallus; I was so upset. Blargha flargha pirates breaking less law breaking more law randomly shoved in emoticon.

  • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

    The solution seems to be to hold the ISP account owner responsible, even if not personally responsible for the actual copyright infringement, in combination with relatively low punishments.

    There’s a similar problem here in Sweden related to speeding, you have to identify the owner of the car in the picture taken with the automatic camera. Also in this case the owner of the car should be responsible, which is the case in some other countries.

    • Guest

      Good luck, Nej, if people ever find out what your IP address is. I’m sure you’ll consider several thousand relatively low punishments, which work out to be expensive when in combination, to be perfectly reasonable, even if not personally responsible for the actual copyright infringement.

      • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

        So you advocate hacking to frame someone you don’t like? That’s the true moral of the pirates…

        I’m sure you’ll have nothing against planting illegal drugs, weapons etc. in the same persons apartment?

        • Fredrika

          > “That’s the true moral of the pirates…”

          Should someone who applauds fascism speak of moral? Should someone who initiates his comment with a dishonest straw-man speak of moral?

          > “I’m sure you’ll have nothing against planting illegal drugs, weapons etc. in the same persons apartment?”

          And than it took you one sentence to again prove your own dishonest moral, by resorting to yet another logical fallacy, as in guilt by association.

          Three sentences consisting of three logical fallacies. You’re on a hot streak.

        • MadAsASnake

          Moron – having just decided that it’s OK to prosecute people you know to be innocent, you object when someone applies that solution to you.

        • Guest

          You’re an idiot. I’m not the one who was agreeing with assuming personal responsibility by association; YOU were. As in, YOU would have nothing against planting illegal drugs, weapons etc. in the same persons [sic] apartment. How about I drive your car, break a few speed limits, and you pay my fines for me?

          For fuck’s sake, Nej, I know you’re addicted to Anon’s industry phallus, but try taking a breath once in a while. Your brain damage is showing. On the other hand, if it ends up hemorrhaging it might be an improvement in your case!

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          No, not really. But when any 13-year old with a grudge against you can frame you for everything from filesharing to Child pornography distribution by following a simple how-to guide on hacking a wifi router, then you can bet your arse that you will be nailed.

          Probably not by pirates who tend to be liberal in value. But I’d speak softly in the presence of any neighbor from the age of early teens and up with the same sort of “opinion” that you seem to hold. The one which simply doesn’t care about principles.

    • Fredrika

      > “The solution seems to be to hold the ISP account owner responsible, even if not personally responsible for the actual copyright infringement, in combination with relatively low punishments.”

      The logical solution is to legalise filesharing, since it shouldn’t be a crime in the first place according to the rules for drafting legitimate legislation.

      But you on the other hand do often advocate illegitimate legislation of the type that’s used in dictatorships, so it’s no surprise that you propose illogical solutions.

      > “There’s a similar problem..”

      Problem? Since when is non-profit copyright infringements a problem? You know very well that there exists no scientific evidence whatsoever that supports that thesis that piracy is a problem, so please don’t call it a problem when you try compare it to something completely irrelevant.

      • Guest

        “The logical solution is to legalise filesharing”. Filesharing isn’t illegal Fredrika.

        • Fredrika

          > “Filesharing isn’t illegal Fredrika.”

          In this context it’s rather obvious what filesharing refers to, isn’t it? It’s the use that the copyright monopoly controls and forbids, which was that which was mentioned in the article.

          But than again, look at who i’m talking to, it’s the person who just the other day proved that he didn’t know the first thing about copyright, when he made a number of false claims about Peter Sunde’s opinions, actions, IP and copyright.

        • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

          Correct.

        • Fredrika

          > “Correct.”

          In that context it was. Or are you saying that you because of ignorance also have a problem with basic linguistic logics, and didn’t understand the meaning of the preceding world legalise, and therefore what filesharing that was discussed in that context?

      • Guest

        Clearly it’s not “obvious” what “filesharing” refers to. You yourself are having to acknowledge that there’s a difference between legal filesharing and what you refer to as “the use that the copyright monopoly controls and forbids”. That being the illegal filesharing.

        But then again look at who I’M talking to. An individual who cannot distinguish between existing law and their own aspirations as far as copyright reform is concerned which they continually post as fact rather than opinion. By the way, where can I read these ” rules for drafting legitimate legislation” that you refer to?

        • Fredrika

          > “Clearly it’s not “obvious” what “filesharing” refers to.”

          In that context it was to everyone but you, since the preceding word was legalise, which means that i could only have referred to that particular filesharing which is illegal. Is simple linguistic logics to much for you?

          > “An individual who cannot distinguish between existing law and their own aspirations as far as copyright reform is concerned which they continually post as fact rather than opinion.

          Yet another empty meaningless accusation. Again, as i stated the other day, if there is a comment from me which you have interpreted in manner that leads you to such a surreal conclusion, please quote that comment, and i will help you read it properly, so you understand what i actually wrote. If you dare. You didn’t the other day. When asked what you actually referred to, you became quiet.

          > “By the way, where can I read these ” rules for drafting legitimate legislation” that you refer to?”

          You can google proportionality principle, which is a part of the constitution in the worlds biggest economy, and the human rights where it’s a requirement for any limitations on them, or read an article.

          http://torrentfreak.com/is-there-any-part-of-the-copyright-monopoly-that-meets-legislative-quality-bars-120812/

        • Guest

          “i could only have referred to that particular filesharing which is illegal”

          Thank you for acknowledging, contrary to many of your other posts, that there is such a thing as illegal filesharing.

          I don’t do “meaningless” accusations, nor do I rise to childish / infantile “dares”.

          I’m merely pointing out observations made in respect of posts you have made and continue to make. I will reiterate for you Fredrika that I too am an advocate for change as far as copyright is concerned. I too acknowledge that the system is broken and needs revisited. The primary difference between you and I is that I don’t post aspirations as unfounded tenets or interpretations of law in an attempt to impress gullible individuals. I don’t pretend to know the opinions or actions of others as intimately as they themselves might do (your reference to Peter above refers) in an attempt to assuage some need to appear “connected” or self important.

          I’m familiar with the proportionality principle thank you. I asked “where can I read these “rules for drafting legitimate legislation” that you refer to?” not “Where can I read the overarching principle of proportionality or someones opinion on legislative quality bars”. That aside, to use one of your own often used arguments, when was the last time every country in the world agreed on something?

          You see Fredrika I have an interest in changing copyright law as it stands by the use of logic, law and reasoned debate. You, on the other hand are apparently more interested in personal attacks and “likes”.

          Time permitting I’d be delighted to debate with you or anyone else on matters pertaining to copyright or legal reform of same. Let’s try that, shall we? You might be surprised just how similar our positions actually are.

        • Fredrika

          > “Thank you for acknowledging, contrary to many of your other posts, that there is such a thing as illegal filesharing.”

          You seem to be confusing me with someone else, i have never denied that some filesharing is illegal in some countries under certain circumstances? Again, if there is a comment from me that you have interpreted in such a manner, please quote that comment and i will help you read it properly, so you can understand what it actually wrote.

          > “I don’t do “meaningless” accusations..”

          When you accuse someone of something without clearly identifying what you refer to, the accusation is empty.

          > “I’m merely pointing out observations made in respect of posts you have made and continue to make.”

          Yes, and when asked to what you refer, you come up with nothing, which makes the accusation empty.

          > “The primary difference between you and I is that I don’t post aspirations as unfounded tenets or interpretations of law in an attempt to impress gullible individuals.”

          Which i have not done. Again, if there is a comment from me which you have interpreted in that manner, please quote it and i will help you read it properly so you can understand what i actually wrote.

          But you can’t seem to be able to do that for some reason..

          > “I don’t pretend to know the opinions or actions of others as intimately as they themselves might do (your reference to Peter above refers) in an attempt to assuage some need to appear “connected” or self important.”

          You claimed that Peter had shown a “total disregard for the rights of others and their business models will” and “shows disdain and contempt for the rights of others by advocating the free sharing of their IP and copyrights.”

          Those are out right lies, and when this was explained you you in great detail you could no longer come up with anything. You did refer to an article, but in that article Peter in fact expressed the direct opposite opinion of what you accused him of.

          When you got defensive and instead of explaining yourself , asked than what was the Pirate Bay all about, you got the following answer to that question, which made you completely drop the entire argumentative thread and your initial accusations.

          > Pirate Bay is a search engine where people can use their free speech and human rights protected freedom to seek, receive and impart information through any media and regardless of frontiers, through legally uploading, indexing, searching for and downloading fully legal non-copyrighted torrents. That does not equal sharing of someone’s IP or copyright, nor does it equal advocating copyright infringements.

          Lastly, helping you with your misconceptions by pointing out well known facts about Peter Sunde and Pirate Bay is not the same thing as trying to appear connected or self important.

          > “I’m familiar with the proportionality principle thank you. I asked “where can I read these “rules for drafting legitimate legislation” that you refer to?” not “Where can I read the overarching principle of proportionality or someones opinion on legislative quality bars”.”"

          As i said, the proportionality principal and it’s rules are clearly stated in among other things the European constitution, and the human rights, which all laws much obey under. That you call them overreaching principles does not change that fact.

          > “Time permitting I’d be delighted to debate with you or anyone else on matters pertaining to copyright or legal reform of same. Let’s try that, shall we?”

          No point in discussing such reform with someone who dont understand the basics about copyright, which you proved that you didn’t with the following comment:

          > “There are any number of interviews with Peter where he openly shows disdain and contempt for the rights of others by advocating the free sharing of their IP and copyrights.

          You can not share someone’s IP or copyrights. Had you known the basics about copyright you would have known this.

          Nor would i discuss anything with someone who continuously makes empty accusations towards me, without being able to clarify what’s he’s talking about.

        • MadAsASnake

          The copyright cartel does not decide what is, and what is not illegal. Really simple.

        • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

          @MadAsASnake

          “The copyright cartel does not decide what is, and what is not illegal. Really simple.”

          Correct. The laws are stated using the democratic process, in conformance with international agreements and rights such as The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and The European Convention on Human Rights.

        • MadAsASnake

          @NJP: And what part of that justifies prosecuting an innocent third party (and on known to be innocent for that matter)? I would note further that a lot of bad legislation has been bribed into existence against the will of the population they supposedly represent. Remember SOPA. It is NOT law because democracy does eventually revolt against this sort of BS.

    • icec0ld

      “The solution seems to be to hold the ISP account owner responsible, even if not personally responsible for the actual copyright infringement, in combination with relatively low punishments.”

      That’s not how criminal law works. It most certainly should not work like that at all. I

      If it does we end up with literally no semblance of law what so ever with people capable of being held liable for crimes they have ad absolutely no part in what so ever.

      Do you prosecute Toyota because their car was used in a bank robbery? Do you prosecute the owner from whom the car was stolen and used in subsequent robbery?

      To have criminal proceedings you have to prove (keyword) willing participation and positive identification. Otherwise, you just end up with a fascist state clubbing everyone they can reach like a wild animal.

      • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

        It depends on the level of negligence.

        Toyota sell cars,with the reasonable presumption that they will be used in a legal way.

        A car owner has a responsibility for his car. If I let a small child drive my car or let a drunk person drive it, I do have a responsibility. If it’s stolen it’s a completely different case.

        • Fredrika

          > “If it’s stolen it’s a completely different case.”

          And then by your own standards the required equivalent has been fulfilled when using someone else’s wireless network, because that is the same thing as using someone’s car without permission.

          You do realise that you just argued against yourself, and your fascist claim that people should be held responsible for what others uninvited do on someone’s wireless network?

          And i noticed that you couldn’t come up with an answer to the point that you suggested a fascist measure which has no place in criminal law?

        • icec0ld

          Going back to a net example, would someone giving someone internet access constitute intent to allow them to commit hypothetical crimes?

          Toyota as no say over what you do with said car. Just as you have no say over a hijacking ,unwarranted or unknown use of said car. It is not and cannot be their place to know what the car will be used for. This is called ownership.

          Again, you “let” them and therefore knew what it was used for. Your participation was active, consent was given. In the case of a child there is separate law for that in which you as the adult are infact responsible for the child because a a child cannot be expected to comprehend at all times the consequences of their actions. Indeed a judge would ask how they got the keys, started the car and drove off,

          Again, to go back to an internet account holder, if the account is used for unlawful purposes without express knowledge or intent, how can any court proceed on any criminal grounds?

          I don’t think you grasp the gravity here of a ruling that account holders are criminals when their connections are deemed to have been used by anyone for unlawful purposes and what affect it would have on the whole system of criminal convictions.

        • Guest

          Toyota make no such assumptions, nor should they.

          The reality is that buyers form NO agreement with manufacturers of vehicles as far as their use is concerned. The terms of use are determined by insurance caveats.

          Individuals are, more often than not, liable for the loss / replacement cost / repair of their vehicle in circumstances where they have not exercised “due care” under the insurance terms.

          That is the context wherein the account holder liability may apply.

          The_Strawbear (below) makes a valid point.

        • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

          @icec0ld

          “I don’t think you grasp the gravity here of a ruling that account holders are criminals when their connections are deemed to have been used by anyone for unlawful purposes and what affect it would have on the whole system of criminal convictions.”

          Since an ISP account is connected to responsible person that admits to follow the rules/law when opening the account, the account owner can and shall be hold responsible within reasonable limits. Yes, the account may be hijacked but you cannot assume that any illegal action is done by someone that has hijacked it.

          If you own a weapon, you’re responsible for that weapon (unless it has been stolen).

          If you’re careless with your car, your knife, your lawnmower or whatever, so that your own child is seriously hurt or killed, you do have a responsibility.

          If you have an ISP account an open it up the the world using an open wifi connection, you also have a responsibility since your signature on the contract with the ISP says that you will follow the rules/law. If you have kids sharing the same internet connection, you have the responsibility to keep them from breaking the law using your account.

        • MadAsASnake

          And how do you propose to relate the simple fact of being an account holder as being necessarily negligent? This is your argument…

        • icec0ld

          “Since an ISP account is connected to responsible person that admits to follow the rules/law when opening the account, the account owner can and shall be hold responsible within reasonable limits. Yes, the account may be hijacked but you cannot assume that any illegal action is done by someone that has hijacked it.”

          Not even hijacking. Ease of use of multiple people within the house constitute that the account while under one persons name, it is therefore unreasonable to for the person with the accounts name to be assumed to have commited the crime, nor can he or she be expected to monitor every users use.

          You say reasonable limits. Thus far you’ve advocated the whole sale prosecution of someone who may very well not be the one responsible.

          “If you own a weapon, you’re responsible for that weapon (unless it has been stolen).

          If you’re careless with your car, your knife, your lawnmower or whatever, so that your own child is seriously hurt or killed, you do have a responsibility.

          If you have an ISP account an open it up the the world using an open wifi connection, you also have a responsibility since your signature on the contract with the ISP says that you will follow the rules/law. If you have kids sharing the same internet connection, you have the responsibility to keep them from breaking the law using your account.”

          To prove responsibility you have to prove negligence. Difficult at the best of times in a normal case. A waste of everyone’s time in a civil copyright law case.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          If Toyota cars were sold under the rather relevant assumption that in 99,9% of the cases where the vehicle performed an operation, the driver could have no control over said operation then Toyota cars would be sold without the assumption that the owner was in any way “responsible”.

          Your summary, to be blunt, completely lacks all relevance.

    • Guest

      If the account holder has a wi-fi connection which gets hacked by someone then the account holder is not responsible responsible for copyright infringement caused by the hacker and its all ready been proved in a US court that a person who has a wi-fi connection cannot be negligent if someone else uses the connection without the account holders knowledge. Open wi-fi connections have also been shown in a US court that they cannot be negligent for abuse on its systems by users so good luck in trying to make account holders responsible for the infringement caused on their connection by other people because its been shown that they are not responsible nor are they negligent.

      • Guest

        Further to my comment, It has also been stated in a few US courts that an IP address does not prove who the infringer and the actual cases thrown out in response to law suits brought to court by copyright trolls in suing numbers of people for copyright infringments.

        • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

          This will have to change.

        • Fredrika

          > “This will have to change.”

          So, the US courts and the US constitution is wrong, and you’re right, because..?

        • MadAsASnake

          @NTP: Why? What is wrong with holding people responsible for their OWN behavior?

        • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

          @MadAsASnake

          “NTP: Why? What is wrong with holding people responsible for their OWN behavior?”

          Nothing, apart from that it’s way to easy to hide from responsibility by hiding your identity in different ways.

        • MadAsASnake

          @NTP: That is plaintiff’s problem, sorry. If you can’t show who did it – you don’t have good enough evidence. Saying to a judge: we don’t know who did it, but we want to sue someone and decided to sue the account holder will fail. Every time. IP tracing is so inaccurate that anyone can be accused. Tell me this, why hasn’t this “plaintiff” ever actually taken a case to court?

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          @Nejtillpirater

          “This will have to change.”

          To expand on your argument you advocate throwing out any process of jurisprudence and burden of proof? Because otherwise, no, it won’t change.
          Nor should it. Burden of proof is still pretty important in court cases, irrespective of your oft-stated opinion that it should not be.

          As you would know if you had any idea at all what you were talking about. Or are you maintaining that old claim you made about being an “IT expert” you made a few years ago? If so I’d love to hear you describe to us just what makes you think that an IP adress can ever be satisfactorily linked to an individual.

          Remind me, when it was found that an ip adress belonging to the Swedish Film Institute was found to be uploading movies by way of bittorrent and an extensive investigation put paid to the accusation you are stating, with confidence, that the investigation came to the wrong conclusion?

      • Guest

        Is ity not the case that account holders ARE responsible for the security of their wi-fi connection? I know that’s the case with many ISPs in the UK.

        • MadAsASnake

          No. It is not the case. The DEA is trying to make that disingenuous leap, but OfCom (the body that has been lumbered with it) is having real problems defining reasonable measures for securing WiFi. If the DEA goes live without this – it’s a perfect defence.

      • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

        But this may change. If you leave the door open to your apartment and people you claim to be unknown use your apartment for manufacturing drugs, prostitution etc, do you think that you should have no responsibility at all?

        • icec0ld

          Ummm, let me think about that one…

          Yeah, they didn’t openly invite drugs manufacturers and hookers to set up shop i their house. Trespassing is still trespassing even if the door is unlocked as thus, a crime and one you as the owner cannot be prosecuted for.

        • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

          “Yeah, they didn’t openly invite drugs manufacturers and hookers to set up shop i their house. Trespassing is still trespassing even if the door is unlocked as thus, a crime and one you as the owner cannot be prosecuted for.”

          The problem with this reasoning is that any criminal can claim that when the police searches the apartment. The legal system shall handle people that falsely claim that they are not responsible, by making it look that way. And it does.

        • icec0ld

          “The problem with this reasoning is that any criminal can claim that when the police searches the apartment. The legal system shall handle people that falsely claim that they are not responsible, by making it look that way. And it does.”

          You really think a judge would go:

          “oh, you didn’t own the apartment? Clearly you aren’t actually producing drugs. Bring in the real owner of the apartment! He’s the one who did it!”

          Grade A baloney.

          People who rent out flats and end up with methlabs don’t get prosecuted unless they are proved to be expressly renting out the flat for the purpose of methlabs. End of story

        • MadAsASnake

          No

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          So, according to your arguments if I own a summer house somewhere and said house is broken into – or I simply did not lock it securely enough to withstand a person with a crowbar for an hour’s time, I should be held accountable if said 3rd party then uses my summer house as a center of a drug ring without my knowledge?

          Thank you for playing, NTP, and goodbye. The answer is in any jurisdiction that you neither can nor should, under reasonable law, have any culpability at all.

          If you leave a wifi open (and you might as well unless you want to spend hours administrating it, with a very high skillset standard) then you can certainly assume it’s being used for innocent purposes.

          Unless you plan to also use the tacit understanding that all men were born criminals. In which case, by your own argument, anyone giving a homeless man a few dollar bills should be held accountable for the homeless man then using the cash to purchase drugs.

          Utter gibberish, NTP – and the frightening part is that you appeared not even to understand the implications of what you wrote.

    • MadAsASnake

      No. If a wrong has been done to you, the answer is not to take a chunk out of an innocent other. The average 5 year old knows this (try punishing an innocent 5 year old for the actions of another if you don’t believe me). There are plenty of legal situations lie this – you have to locate the offender. Really simple.

      • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

        One solution would be to have one ISP connection for each person in a household, each person is legally responsible for how their own connection is used. But until then – each ISP account owner is responsible for how that account is used.

        • Guest

          Never mind that your proposed solution would be unnecessarily expensive, and still wouldn’t solve the problem.

        • MadAsASnake

          You don’t think it would be easier, cheaper and more profitable for the copyright holders to simply make better market offering? Why should my household pay more for this?

        • icec0ld

          unnecessary and largely unfeasible in the US who btw has one of the best internet infrastructures in the world. The level of stress on the system would be astronomical, the monitoring or and record keeping would be mercilessly difficult to keep track of and expensive. No ISP would willing pay for this.

          And no. The ISP account holder is not as responsible. as you may think. Courts around the world are following suit and demanding more than just simple IP addresses and the word of the plaintiff .

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Nevermind that your proposed solution is still impossible. It would require that the hardware of the modem was locked, individually, to each and every device to use it. Meaning every time a customer bought a new computer the ISP would have to send or commission a tech to set it up at the cost of an hour’s worth of ticket time.

          Meaning every ISP would need to hire ten more techs for each one they have right now, for a start. It’s been pretty well established what it costs to run an intranet of that type. No corporation can really afford it. Let alone private subscribers who would bear the costs.

          And that still doesn’t solve the problem that any 13 year old will still – at will – use your connection unless you hire even more techs to maintain and diagnose both the security of the connection and the computer of the individual subscriber.

          For four years in a row you have now proposed “solutions” which assume black magic exists in the field of IT. How can that be given that you often used to claim you had long experience in information technology. Experience as in “sitting in long frustrating calls with the nice people in tech support whose answers and questions you could not understand you mean?”

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      It’s interesting to note that in many other european countries the automatic camera was introduced…then struck down as impractical and found impossible to implement.

      There are problems identifying the owner of a car as the violator as that means innocent people can get struck down by the law when neighbourhood kids decide to joyride.

      It’s even less sane a proposition in the case of wifi where an account holder, unless s/he possesses skills not displayed by 99,9% of the public, can never even notice the wifi has been utilized by a 3rd party.

      Nor do you apparently still know how damn easy hacking a wifi router actually is, meaning that anyone within 50 meters on a good day can nail you with whatever they wish, simply because they might not like you, if the account holder must demonstrate innocence – which again, is all but impossible.

      However, you have in the four years you’ve spammed Christian Engström’s blogg demonstrated a number of times that you simply don’t care if the law is “reasonable” so this is not exactly surprising.

  • The_Strawbear

    This is good news. Yay!

    But it does make me fear that eventually we’ll all have our own individual ‘entry portal’ to our isps with a unique password where can and will be held responsible for anything that happens on that account.

    So, when you sign up to your isp, you request how many licences (or whatever they get called) you need and you get 3 or 4 for the family then you can’t get online without using that ID.

    That or something similar can’t be too far away, with each subsequent ruling that IP doesn’t equal person, it gets a little closer to being pushed for.

    • MadAsASnake

      Such a proposal [mandatory individual user accounts for purposes of surveillance by corporations] would violate so many tenets of privacy and human rights law that no government (except maybe North Korea) would survive proposing it. Even if they did this, trawling torrents for IP still isn’t good enough. The “evidence” trail has so many ifs buts and maybes that you still get false positives. And it does nothing for other forms of download. invasive, expensive, ineffective. Like any MAFIAA proposal, basically.

    • ThumbsUpThumbsDown

      Such crap will only get passed if average Joes are dead asleep. Otherwise, big black fist straight up Mr. Politicians ass, up high; take out his tonsils; make him squeak out new law; makes ISP suck Mr. Average Joe Dick……

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      I can tell you know that solutions will not be used. You, as a subscriber, do not have the cash to outlay the minimum expenses for the subscription given what the maintenance would cost the ISP.

      To say nothing about how it would completely cripple any IT infrastructure meant to be used for general purposes. The NSA have such setups, as does embassies and certain secretive government agencies dealing with sensitive topics. No one else.

  • Chewy

    @Fredrika Lol Hey I feel really bad to see that you’re dealing with these massive trolls constantly everyday…. why don’t you get yourself a pistol with a silencer and shoot them?

    or even beat them? At least show them what the reality right now(which is at its worst) really looks like… show them how hard the police beats civilians… you know, wit dem thick-sized batons.. .etc.

  • NewClear

    The lowest form of human scum is someone who makes porn with the express purpose of suing people who download it.

    • Chewy

      @NewClear Tru dat! only reason porn is viral is because those uncontrollable horny motherfuckers just have to share with people who has nothing to do with porn- but in turn, brings more ppl in to act scums and guess where our morality has been heading to: just under the devil’s scrotum……..sigh.

      • Chewy

        act like* scums

  • Nothingto1

    The problem with some people is that just because it’s a law, they believe it is the RIGHT law. It’s the law of the land, but is the right law? Nope! DMCA should have just been towards those who sell copyrighted works of others, not copying others copyrighted work for personal use…

    This law is wrong, and I hope sooner or later, the people go towards this change.

  • joexxx

    Leo Sorokin…. it takes a Russian guy to have some common sense.

  • Guest32

    “The problem with this reasoning is that any criminal can claim that when the police searches the apartment. The legal system shall handle people that falsely
    claim that they are not responsible, by making it look that way. And it does.”

    Yes, and the law already knows how to handle criminals denying responsibility. And the law does not assumes that you are guilty because you are unable to prove who did the illegal act on your property. It requires the government to prove all elements of the crime including mens rea.

    Elimination of the government’s burden to prove who did what because proof may sometimes be difficult is wrong.

    And it’s simply incorrect that copyright holders have no tools at their disposal. They can subpoena all equipment in the house for concrete proof as to the identity of the wrongdoer.

    What they can’t do is using an IP address in justifying a fishing expedition.

    Of course, such a cause of action is expensive, but copyright does not entail a right to cheap enforcement.

    Enforcing copyright is purely discretionary, and no one is hurt by the copyright holder being unable to pursue every instance of non-commercial infringement.
    The car analogy is also wrong for another reason: A car may be locked, and can only be used by one person at a time.

    An internet access point is by design intended to be used by multiple actors whose individual activities and culpability can’t be known to the account subscriber.

  • Guest32

    “The solution seems to be to hold the ISP account owner responsible, even if not personally responsible for the actual copyright infringement, in combination
    with relatively low punishments.”

    Fantastic idea: I’ll invite 100 people over to my house. I’ll set up a mesh network with my NAT router as outbound gateway to the internet. I’ll let all my guest users pay a fee for potential abuse, and if or when the lawsuits come in, I’ll use the collected fees to pay the fine.

    What you are proposing is in practice no different from a copyright tax. It would be cheaper and better for society to impose a blanket levy on all internet users and legalize non-commercial file sharing.

    You aren’t really thinking through the wider consequences of your argument.
    If the law is changed to presume the subscriber responsible for everything done from the assigned IP address, in the event that hacking can’t be proven, the law is creating a perverse incentive for (1) Hacking the wireless access points of innocent persons; (2) A black market for hacked wifi; (3) Better techniques to plausible deny responsibility while allowing someone to use another’s wifi (4) Sophisticated p2p and proxy software operating as malware with or without the consent of the computer owner.

    And you are doing this to save the copyright lobby, but the effect of such a change in the law is going to spur the evolution of better antiforensics techniques. Terrorists and pedophiles will love it.

  • Thom

    In other words, Discount Video Center and Patrick Collins engaged in EXTORTION.

  • erasmus654

    Amen to that! It’s about fucking time these dogs got leashed!

  • militarystarfuckerfromtampa

    Sounds like some judge doesn’t want his ISP address exposed in a discovery response, so much so that sua sponte rewriting the copyright and discover laws is acceptable.

  • Pingback: Judge Stops BitTorrent Trolls From Harassing ISP Account Holders | Kuvilla

  • http://fightcopyrighttrolls.com/ SJD

    Judge Leo Sorokin finally dropped the hammer on Marvin Cable and recommended dismissing the case for failure to serve the defendants (scroll down to update).

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