Musicians Oppose Punishments for Pirating Fans
Written by Ernesto on September 05, 2009Musicians have spoken out strongly against UK government plans to disconnect the Internet connections of repeated copyright infringers. They argue that the plans, much applauded by the big music labels, will further alienate fans from artists.
While the music industry paints a picture where file-sharers are criminals who refuse to pay for music, the reality is quite the opposite. The people who share music are dedicated music fans who actually buy more music than their non-pirating friends.
True music enthusiasts simply want to consume, sample and discover as much new music as they possibly can, and the most straightforward and convenient way to do this is through file-sharing networks. Music pirates are just regular consumers really, and they love music just as much as anyone else.
The music industry fails to realize this though and has declared war against their main source of revenue, which resulted in UK plans to disconnect alleged file-sharers. Instead of finding ways to please the changing demands of music fans in the digital era, they have chosen to defend their old models and punish the fans instead.
This trend is worrying artists, the people who actually produce the music but who are never heard when new legislative measures are drafted. Unlike the big labels they don’t want their fans to be punished for a ‘problem’ that was created by a lack of innovation from the labels.
The Featured Artists Coalition (FAC), the British Academy of Songwriters, Composers and Authors (Basca) and the Music Producers Guild (MPG) have joined forces to prevent a three-strikes disconnection regime being implemented.
In a statement the broad alliance of musicians, producers and songwriters criticizes the new UK anti-piracy plans, which they labels as illogical and “extraordinarily negative”. With this move they go directly against the wishes of the major record labels who are represented by the IFPI and BPI.
Unlike the musicians, the labels are advocating stringent measures to prevent the industry from going bankrupt. To back this up they feed the legislators with dizzying numbers. Statistics that have been fabricated by the music industry itself, and blindly accepted by the UK Government.
However, in reality the anti-filesharing antics of the major music labels only continue to further alienate fans from their artists. Most musicians oppose the label’s strategies and rightly so. Music is thriving more than ever before, but now consumers and fans are taking over the distribution role.
Eventually the labels might have to give up the distribution component that has been their core business for years on end. This paints an uncertain future for the labels and that might be one of the main reasons why they are so resistant.
Luckily there are some smaller labels out these that realize that file-sharing should be embraced, not fought.
Previously: Anti-Piracy Boss Confiscates Confiscated Hacker Laptop
Next: Pirates Jump on District 9 Torrents
179 Responses
first?
Good, lets beat these bastards!
The bigger labels are never going give up this “war”. It’s ALL about the money, and never about the music.
Bottom line: You can not copyright sound. Period.
@3
If that were the case, they would’ve long ago stopped supporting new and emerging artists (maybe even giving up new music production entirely) to instead pursue online filesharers.
Think before you speak.
@2
Violence won’t get you anywhere, and it only reinforces the fact that torrenters are all just blood hungry illegals. You should try to actually resolve things like adults, in courts.
But oh wait, we all know how that went.
@4,
Regarding your comment on the second post, I think he/she was saying that metaphorically.
@4
It’s called sarcasm and the corporations care about the dough, not about the artists. They claim to represent them but most of the money goes to the pockets of the corrupted corporates…and how do you justify asking for thousands for “damages” for songs that were probably worth only $50?
Also, it’s worth mentioning that BREIN is a bunch of laptop-stealers. =P
@4
The record labels release the artists works for profit, not because they want credits.
@6
Statutory damages. It wouldn’t be worth the costs of litigation if they only asked for the money they felt was directly stolen. Not to mention, the number of times they’ve uploaded it could be thousands, maybe millions.
High damages also serve to dissuade people from piracy.
The comment about BREIN stealing laptops; it’s already been said in the comments section that it’s very possible the man bought a refurbished laptop that had a backstory to it.
This will never end, there will always be a way, Mandy will be ousted before long (again) he can’t help it, twice thrown out of the cabinet in disgrace, probably emerge that he has taken huge backhanders from the music industry to push this through then the whole argument will be null and void once more, ISP’s who ban sharers will lose so much custom and they know it. The others for the ban probably just use their computers for two things – Ebay and porn!
Long live the Bay, probably be The Pirate Boy soon, alls well eh?
As a small, indie artist without a huge record label “protecing” (read: leeching off) my work, I agree 100%.
File sharing is a brilliant way to distribute and promote your music. yet, the industry seems to be scared of it, and would see it wiped from the world, if they could. Here’s a newsflash for them: It isn’t going to happen. Not now, not ever. Now please step aside and die quietly in the corner, your time is up and has been for years. Now it’s our turn.
Also, Mandy is a bastard who should join the music industry in dying in the corner.
Ah “Beep Beep, Back up the truck”. There’s some great tunes on that label.
@ someguy. Haha, I love watching numbnuts like you squirm. Enjoy being laughed at.
I hope they’ll keep it up and soon nobody in their right mind will pay them for any music anymore. Which is probably the only way to get rid of the MAFIAA anyhow.
How is it that the article claims that the number of 7 million filesharers is fudged and fake, when it believes that the study reporting that filesharers are 10 times more likely to buy music is true?
Both use relatively small sampling sizes, and both of them make conclusions based on extrapolation.
Relevant links:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/apr/21/study-finds-pirates-buy-more-music
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/351331/how-uk-government-spun-136-people-into-7m-illegal-file-sharers
Don’t complain about spin, then use it yourself. Hypocrisy at its finest.
So uh SomeGuy you wouldnt happen to happen to know a couple of guys “Reasoned-Mind” and “Neo-Styles” because you sound an awful lot like one of them.Unfortuantely the middle man is being replaced by the internet and the labels should find a new way to make money or like Sendaii said die in the corner :).
You understand that labels play a huge role in promoting, production, and management of artists right?
And about the supposed huge amount of money that labels take away from artists (by the way, I still haven’t been given a link to exact figures), it’s still better than nothing, which is exactly what artists would have if piracy was allowed to go on without consequence.
10% of 10 million dollars in album sales = 1 million dollars to artists.
10% of 0 dollars, because of piracy = 0 dollars to artists.
Think it over.
SomeGuy: It’s really nice to see somebody from your side of this debate, trying to keep things on topic without sounding like a corporate ass (though you do kind of make it sound like this is a personal issue for you).
Still, you keep on refering to this supposed lack of profit, which is completely irrelevant. Even if the artists and labels lose money on file sharing, piracy is here to stay. The productive thing to do, from your perspective, would be to try and figure out how to turn this into something positive (again, judging from your perspective) without holding on to archaic morals and laws which we all know need a good update to function in todays society.
When this all started, I was just trying to sample music styles and bands, to hear new and exciting music that I had not discovered yet.
After following all of the happenings over the past couple of years, I have developed a burning hatred of DRM, the music industry and opposition to internet privacy, freedom from censorship and the like.
I wish I would have never supported the music industry over the years. I wish I could get my money back for the nearly 2,000 CDs I bought while I was growing up.
The record companies have been screwing everyone since the beginning of their inception. I could go on for hours on this subject alone, but the information is already common knowledge:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=record+companies+screwing&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&oq=record+companies+screwing&fp=d9ca629f83f82f8a
It’s beyond sickening. Unless things change in the future, I will never buy music from a major label again. I will actively encourage others to do the same.
A business must serve a consumer and its clients, not the other way around.
Die in a roaring blaze, f***ers.
I would spit in your face, unless you were on fire.
> 10% of 0 dollars, because of piracy = 0 dollars to artists.
this assumption is wrong!
ppl don´t by the Data-Medium anymore.
but are willing to spend money on many other stuff, from t-shirts to booklets to concerts, posters, ….
the ppl don´t save the money, but spend it on something physical, instead of “data”.
@19
So data and information are useless. That’s what you’re saying, correct?
no, just the data and information that you provide
@SomeGuy: Because of the advent of the internet and file sharing, a band can do their own promotion, production and managment. A good example of this is the metal band Silent Descent. They have no label behind them at all. They released their first tracks for free onto their YouTube channel, torrent sites and MySpace page. Fast forward a couple of years, and they have two mind-blowing albums out the door (released, promoted and sold by themselves, both of which I have bought), droves of devoted fans and have even played at Download festival. And they get to keep every penny from the albums that they sell, NOTHING goes to music industry suits because there are no music industry suits involved.
http://www.myspace.com/silentdescent1
You, my friend, don’t seem to be able to grasp the concept that pirates DO buy music, just not from huge labels who rip off consumers and artists.
@Sendaii
I’ve never heard of them till now, and I doubt that they’ll ever become mainstream because of the fact that they simply don’t have the resources to promote themselves to the general public, as much as a label like Sony BMG (for example) can.
“You, my friend, don’t seem to be able to grasp the concept that pirates DO buy music, just not from huge labels who rip off consumers and artists.”
So Silent Descent’s albums are priced more cheaply than those sold by labels? That’s my understanding of what you mean when you say ‘rip off consumers’. Also, even if the labels did rip off the artists of a huge portion of sales (I’m still waiting for proof of this, by the way), the percentage that does go to them would in the end amount to much more than what an unaffiliated artist would make.
SomeGuy successful troll is successful.
@ SomeGuy (ie ReasonedMind/NeoStyles clone)
“10% of 0 dollars, because of piracy = 0 dollars to artists.”
If you truly believe that so-called piracy would completely stop any money being made by the artist, then you’re not all there.
I know from first-hand experience that bands have profited directly from ‘piracy’, profit they would never have gotten where there no such thing as filesharing.
SomeTroll can enjoy paying for his music/movies/software. I bet he also obeys speed limits and he never had more than 1 girlfriend at a time.
“LIVING” LIFE BY THE RULES IS FUN. AMIRITE?
@SomeGuy:
It’s nice to see that you don’t instantly flame me, a lot of people who take your point of view would and have in the past, so thank you for that.
To be honest, because of the style of the music that they play, they probably wouldn’t become that mainstream anyway even if Song BMG was behind them.
And by ripping off artists and consumers, I mean that the artists get paid a pittance and the consumers pay a premium. The label takes around 75% of the profits, and the artist gets what’s left. So, say an album sold in a shop was priced at £15. The label would take £11.25 of that and the artist, the one who as put their sweat, blood and tears into writing the songs to go on the album, would get £3.75 per sale, and even less through iTunes sales as Apple take their cut too. That, quite frankly, is an insult. And if you search on Google, you will see that there have been cases when the artist has gotten less than that, or even nothing at all in extreme cases (royalty payments for radio airplay).
And yes, maybe an artist would make more money being signed to a big label. This, however, begs the question: Why the hell would I want a single penny from the profits of MY work to go into the pocket of an executive who has done nothing for me and who will probably use that money to sue people who only want to sample music before buying it?
@Sendaii
I’m not out to flame anyone, and it’s kind of discouraging (in terms of faith in the internet as a tool to spread views and information) to see people who instantly jump to the conclusion that because someone disagrees with what they say is a troll (I’m not pointing the finger at you).
Part of the reason that labels take such a significant portion is probably because they have their own operating expenses; pressing the albums, promoting the artist, and of course, they have to take a bit of overhead to compensate for all of the artists who end up not making a profit for them. This is my own rationalization, but it seems sane enough.
I’m not saying labels are saints. Far from it; of course they’re there to turn a profit, but they are also doing artists a favor. They’re helping them gain popularity, and a larger audience. And although they might be taking a majority of the profits, the amount of money going to artists is still a substantial amount; or at least, it was in the past, and it is in the present. Keep in mind also that the labels and production outfits make thousands of jobs; even from the most menial, minimum wage jobs, to market analysts and advertising executives that make in the hundreds of thousands, possibly. The global economy is bad enough. A few thousand (possibly millions, worldwide?) without employment would only make the situation worse.
To those who make accusations that I’m a paid mercenary; far from it. I’m currently a student, and although I’m not necessarily going into the music production career path, I certainly am concerned that artists like myself might have an impossible livelihood in the future.
It’s convincing me to switch majors from music to science, since there’s no way to pirate a surgery.
Unfortunate, to say the least.
SomeGuy You are trolling on this site under this name for more than 6 hours.
And also you use others aliases such as simple mine.
Who is paying you?
Yes. Disconnect those nasty pirates and their entire families. Disconnect them by the thousands.
This will cause the ISP’s to lose business, and those who sample music on the internet before buying will be sure to never buy CD’s or DVD’s again. They will tell their friends and families to never buy CD’s or DVD’s again, and so on.
The pirates and their families will soon realize that they don’t need music or movies in their lives and they’ll be spending more quality time together without music or movies, and they’ll be so scarred by the tactics of the RIAA/MPAA that they will never buy media ever again for as long as they live. These families will then pass on their disinterest in media to other generations.
Good idea! I really think this will WORK to help increase sales! xD
Music labels are obsolete and have no right to exist anymore. They are vultures, parasites, profiteering scum. Support the real artists (not the millionaires/billionaires) and f**k the labels!
@28
I’m not posting under more than one “Name”.
I don’t see any reason to post as more than one personality. I don’t see what purpose that serves.
I’m not “simple mine” or “Reasoned Mind” or what have you.
I’m just SomeGuy.
@29
Amazon has a nifty feature where you can sample albums too. It streams the content to your computer, and it gives you 30 second clips of each. You don’t have to download V0/FLAC copies of the music, to find out if it suits you.
You’re also completely utilizing the slippery slopes logical fallacy. That situation is more fitting for a movie about a bleak, uninteresting dystopia than something that would happen in real life. That might be worth copyrighting.
@30
Very intelligently written.
Hope not too much offtopic but i just wonder how big the damage of all this DRM, laywers, useless organizations, police, judges (bought, ignorant or otherwise) is economical and enviromental.
Economical: All these thousands of organisations, lobbyists, laywers, judges, programmers (for DRM), CEO’s and others who need to be paid to keep the “war on sharing” going. How much more money would be left for artists if all this just didn’t exist. Is the total costs of these organizations not bigger than what they would ever gain if there was no sharing at all ? There seem even to be “opinion trolls” being paid here.
Enviromental: The creation of useless DRM “features” into every possible device which all need addtional power, bigger IC’s (more waste) and more supporting electronics using again more power and waste. (You didn’t ask for it but you do pay for limitations included indevices by licenses and power usage for DRM decoding). Then all the counter measures of encryption, proxys, VPN, protection programs. Counter-counter..well you get the idea. And also add all caused by the economical damage to this.
Isn’t there some research where all those damages have been calculated ? Maybe something to investigate for that “Swedish professor” in the TPB trail.
(Apologize, it’s a bit long but already left out a lot)
@SomeGuy:
Thanks for your reply. Try to ignore those people, they are morons.
For most part, I agree with your latest post. I still believe, however, that artists would be better off if the music industry didn’t exist. Many notable artists (for example, Radiohead, Moby and Nine Inch Nails) have made it clear that they do not like the label’s practices. And artists are often in for the fun of it, not to make a profit, although this is a bonus.
And if I were you, I would switch majors. I’m studying physics at the moment, much more interesting than music theory.
@diarRIAA
These corporate parasites will not reach this point since the boycott is still expending and their business is still shrinking as a result.
Artists are walking away from them.
This is their last gasp.
When I say latest, I mean the one before last. Sorry.
@32
“Hope not too much offtopic but i just wonder how big the damage of all this DRM, laywers, useless organizations, police, judges (bought, ignorant or otherwise) is economical and enviromental.”
You answered your own question. There isn’t any economical damage, it’s actually helping more people out. These people are now able to earn a living practicing the professions that they’ve studied for. Police are hardly useless, and judges are civil servants. And unfortunately, that’s what this has come to; you forget that if people were more honest and followed their morality (by actually paying for media and supporting artists) DRM and lawyers and lobbyists wouldn’t even be necessary.
DRM isn’t adding more environmental waste; it’s just incorporated into the CDs and digital downloads that are distributed anyway. The people who are experts in cryptography who are paid to do this can also make their living; cryptography is usually a pretty underdemanded job, unless you’re going into hardware/software, or if you’re working for the government (like the NSA).
It’s nice to see the private industries are helping to support these obscure professions, and these less sought after skills.
I will concede that you brought up some interesting points though.
Oh yes. I forgot this one: Reasoned Mind.
The problem is that all these aliases com from the same IP address.
How do you explain that?
Just curious.
@37 Richard: And how do you know that they all come from the same IP address? Do you have access to the TorrentFreak logs or did you just decide to pull that one out of your arse?
@Sendaii
I don’t question what you mean when you say that some artists are still able to thrive without being backed by a label, and that many prefer it that way.
The thing is, in order to make it in the highly competitive world of music (it’s almost comparable to the world of professional, major league sports) you either have to have good connections (a record label) or a lot of talent (and a good dose of good luck, as with anything). There are undoubtedly many who fall into both categories, and in that respect, I agree that it should be considered, ‘to each his own’.
But to deride the recording industries without proper reason seems a bit… ridiculous. And ad hominum attacks won’t help gather people to your side in the real world of politics.
In truth, I believe that the pirate party, if it takes a real stand on issues (right now, from what I’ve read, it’s a single-trick pet that only wants to fight for peer to peer file-sharing), might take off; but with the public’s perception of online pirates as sometimes uneducated crooks, this won’t happen internationally for a while.
@Dr.Dre
What? I know you’re not the real Dre, but you should know that Dre himself runs a few labels, which he uses to promote new hip-hop artists (wasn’t Eminem one of his proteges)?Labels he runs: Priority, Death Row, Aftermath, Interscope
Internet is our only way nowadays to strike back and make a stance about our wishes,
They want to control us but they cant, they want us to buy their product and not own it as so to do what we want with it.
Freedom to teh internets \m/
@27 SomeGuy:
“I’m currently a student, and although I’m not necessarily going into the music production career path, I certainly am concerned that artists like myself might have an impossible livelihood in the future.”
They are old the students this year.
@37
That’s clearly a lie. Unless by some odd streak of chance that Reasoned Mind is on my WPA’d router, I doubt that he/she would have the same IP as me.
@40
“they want us to buy their product and not own it as so to do what we want with it.”
Not necessarily. Many retailers like Amazon and the like now sell non-DRM restricted digital music, and iTunes has recently changed their policy on that too. I’d rather buy from Amazon though, it’s cheaper on a song-by-song basis.
I agree, the internet is a good medium for inspiring change and promoting new ideas. With enough serious talk and rational thinking, you’d be surprised at what you can accomplish.
Isn’t that nice, the people that the music labels are trying to “protect” seem to be rebelling against them, funny, isn’t it?
@SomeGuy:
We may not see eye to eye, but from the few posts that you have made, I respect your opinion more than the opinions of many on my own side.
I don’t know if my writing is more offensive than I thought, but I can’t see where I launched an ad hominem attack against you. Could you point it out please, or were you referring to someone else?
@42 SomeGuy
“That’s clearly a lie.”
Are you sure?
@Sendaii
Not you.
And I understand that this is the internet, and that such things are bound to happen; but when people are launching random attacks, simply declaring that my position is false without providing backing, it gets to be ridiculous.
That’s not how to be taken serious in the real world, and let that serve as a memo when the Pirate Party begins to gain political power (which will happen, soon enough).
@45 Richard: You are laughable. Please present some evidence that RM and SomeGuy are posting from the same IP or are the same people, or drop it.
@39 SomeGuy
“What? I know you’re not the real Dre”
Of course not!
“Dre” is a piece of crap and a parasite just like you!
His stuff is null!
What do the following have in common: music producer, peltmonger, wagonmaker, knife grinder, charburner, tinker, barrel maker? All obsolete professions. And unlike the music producer the others were WORKING.
@47 Sendaii
Not that stupid.
@SomeGuy
You seem to have a problem reading so please don’t respond if you don’t understand the sentences or try to make you’re own argument out of it.
As an example, i’m referring to police (it is one item as “useless organizations” is an item) being used for useless organizations like BREIN, IFPI, BPI, RIAA, STEMRA, MPAA …and the list goes on and on and on… which is a cost to society not being busy finding murderers, rapists, laptop thieves instead.
Further you seem to have no idea of electronics at all or again try to change it into job oppertunities, like a bought pseudo-scientist some decades ago telling people “smoking is good for your health, just look at the advantages”.
The COSTS are a waste of ENERGY AND MATERIALS and battery life sometimes used on encoding and decoding DRM IN THE DEVICES NOT THE CD’S THEMSELVES. And the creating of it in the first place.
I would rather have a sensible comment, like you give me the number on the total costs on the anti-sharing measures (all salaries,buildings, court cases, unlawfully operating detective and laywer firms). It’ll probably be billions… not going to artists but to you, IFPI, Brein… What does your organization cost the “Artist” ?
I rather feel you are trying to bend things around than that you didn’t understand it.
@48
Yet you try to emulate him? Out of all of the possible handles you could’ve assumed, you took “Dr Dre”.
@49
It takes logistics and skill to run a company that large, and to manage as many people as executives have to. Record labels succeed when the artists they endorse succeed. It wouldn’t be in their interest to have artists begrudge them.
@50
Sure you aren’t :)
*pets Richard on the head slowly*
Today piracy is a part of our life, people (MAFIAA) who think that they can stop piracy are fooling themselves. You can’t sue millions of people. Piracy is unstoppable take it or leave it.
@50 Richard: That’s not evidence. You said that they were posting from the same IP. Hand over the goods or bugger off.
@SomeGuy:
Answer this:
Why is that people listening to music on radio are not wrong but listening on the internet is. what is the difference?
People stop renting music if they listen for free right? So if that was true radio should have destroyed the business model a long time ago.
@39
“you either have to have good connections (a record label) or a lot of talent”
So you can choose between connetions OR talent. Talent is not a requirement ?
So you are implying (admitting) that creating art (as in artists) has absolutelly nothing todo with talent but just making a living because you’re no good at any other job. So you might as well try to become talentless rich. (well ok, you didnt imply that part about becoming rich)
And i go back to what i usually do… just read.
@55
Radio stations pay licensing fees, or have secured the permission from the corresponding labels in some other way.
@56
I said either a lot of talent and some good luck, or very nice connections.
If you’ll quote me, at least do me the justice of quoting me entirely :)
The media distribution industry reminds me of coopers of old, when the aluminum barrel came into being. They were fucked, and they knew it. But back then they reinvested almost all of their money in the new barrel production and aluminum extraction technology. What the music distribution industry should do is invest their money in internet distribution technology. If they can not kill of the new distribution technology, then they should think of making a buck off the ‘free’ replacement. The distribution of files on the internet may be considered to be free by some, but ISP’s, electricity companies, computer makers all charge money. Ideal to be invested in. I think that the music missed have missed their life boat, it is full because they were sleeping at the wheel.
Yah right that is why slicethepie and sellaband(owned by an ex-excutive form sony) charge $50 grand that is paid by the fans LoL
It is really costly $50 grand really.
And then there is the lawsuits like Cher and love something.
Oh! lets see you can masterize an album in your house if you have the knowledge this days as software like hydrogen, rosegarden are of industrial strength and can do everything and are free and opensource.
Hmmm…then not paying artists is bad that is why U.K. musicians bended over to google after google took out their music from youtube so apparently exposure is more important then the bottom line LoL
The industry saw growth in revenue in the fallowing areas “live shows tickets sales” the labels can’t touch and digital sales, what really did sink was CD sales but lets be realistically who have a discman this days?
Stop being scare and compete on the market, do some work for a change and stop whining.
@52
“Yet you try to emulate him?”
You call this emulation?
Dre is null, just like you and just like 98% of anything distributed by the 4 corporations of criminals, the one we are destroying right now as I am writing this.
Live with this!
Radios in the U.S. only paid ASCAP not performance fees and never did. But that may change.
@58
But who would buy your home-masterized tracks? It’s easier said than done.
And many of the artists who post music on youtube get paid on a per-view basis. It’s on the order of fractions on a penny, but even some content creators like Smosh get paid for the subscribers they have (by Google).
And what execs (CEOs, etc.,) do IS work. I’ve already gone over how demanding management is; the fate of a company is in your hands, and it is your responsibility to make sure that it, you, and its employees flourish.
By the way radios got paid by the music industry to play some artists and not other in a scandal know as “payola” LoL
@52 SomeGuy /Reasoned Mind/
*pets Richard on the head slowly*
That’s sound good but it does not mean anything.
Is that your only argument in favor of the current music industry?
@63
1) Learn to read
2) Read my other comments on this post
3) Understand.
It’s alright though, I know some of us (you) learn slower than the rest.
“. I’ve already gone over how demanding management is; the fate of a company is in your hands, and it is your responsibility to make sure that it, you, and its employees flourish.”
So put your story strait:
Ever you are an executive or you are a student.
As a troll on the side of the music corporate parasites you probably have a lot of expertise about lying.
Is it not the end of your working day?
You must be tired.
How did they determine that piratea are 10 times more likely to buy music? Did they just ask people? Well obviously no one would voluntarily admit that they don’t pay for their music.
“True music enthusiasts” also want to support those who’s hard work lets them enjoy the music they like. True music enthusiasts don’t just view artists as slaves who’s sole purpose in life is to make them happy. True music enthusiasts recognize that artists have to make a living off their music.
If people were so passionate about the music they listen, to surely they would consider a little self sacrafice justified in accquiring music that they like. But I guess they love the music so much, they aren’t even willing to pay 2 cents for it. If pirates bought more music than non pirates, why would there be such huge losses?
Im sure most people would also love it if they could walk into their neighbors house and take their TV.. No one likes paying for things. Money is a limited resource, but those of who do live honest lives, do it because we care about something besides ourselves.
@65
I’ve already gone through how demanding management is = I’ve already written about it in a previous comment.
Working day? Classes here don’t start for another week.
Troll? Hardly.
Artic Monkeys did it, even Metallica did it in the begning so I guess a lot of people would listen and buy LoL
According to the latest news youtube is paying U.K. artists representatives a fixed sum not a percentage this get you sad?
Oh! please management is a breeze, people keep day dreaming all day long and only have to work a fraction of the time I should know.
And by the way who was the moronic CEO that instead of embracing digital from the beginning have not done so in 10 years. They(CEO’s) can’t seem to see that they are not competing just with each other anymore there is another option on the table and people will find what they like one way or another with or without them.
@SomeGuy:
Sorry to stick my oar in again, but I need to do this.
Take a look at the happy hardcore scene (or techno as it is called in the US.) Most artists produce and master their tracks at home, and thousands buy them.
@67
“hey(CEO’s) can’t seem to see that they are not competing just with each other anymore there is another option on the table and people will find what they like one way or another with or without them.”
CEOs shouldn’t have to deal with theft; and they don’t. That’s what law enforcement is for, and as you have seen in recent times, companies are increasingly relying on the authorities to prosecute people sharing files that they don’t own the rights to.
You should know about management? Pray, do tell.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10221501-93.html
Headline: “Google bringing pay-per-view to YouTube”
What Metallica did in the beginning was a sampling/pilot; just to demonstrate to labels what their talent was, so that they could be signed.
@63 SomeGuy /Reasoned Mind/
*pets Richard on the head slowly*
It still does not mean anything.
Sorry.
It sound to me like most lyrics distributed by the music industry during these last two decades:
meaningless but sound good.
When a fan query a song writer about his lyric it gives him the same type of obscure explanation:
“Oh read the lyric again you will understand” While there is nothing to understand.
Once again I am a musician as well and I totally support anyone sharing my music.As a matter of fact I would love to see any of you give my art a listen and share it with anyone you want to.
My art is located at and is all 320k MP3’s.I have 3 or 4 of the bands I am in or have been in that actually made it to recordings/albums/singles.
Check it out:
http://www.bigmeathammer.com/archives.htm
Big Meat Hammer is the punk rock band I do in Maine for 20 years now still with majority of original players.
If you like 60’s garage,punk rock, or proto-punk sound.
Also I wish that more and more bands/artists not sign with these greedy RIAA/Labels.Why do you need these leeches anyways.you can all promote yourself on the net and otherwise.It is easy to do this and not ever have to deal with those monsters.
And to you consumers out there I do hope that none of you ever pay for any corp label and/or RIAA artist.
Spread the word amongst your friends.Let us all work together everywhere to bring down these monsters.
We Can Do It Together !!!!
SomeGuy doesn’t realize that many of these so-called pirates are young people (many of them not even adults) who simply can’t afford to buy every album they like because they have other hobbies too and are smart enough not to buy something they haven’t heard (and by “heard” I mean the whole album).
Wrong CEO’s have to deal with everything and for the most part the only thing they do is couple counseling in the office and manufacturing floor.
And for “increasing” you really mean the copyright industry or IP industry relies totally and always have on the authorities because they have no other means to enforce anything and it is a costly business for them, the government and the people who have to pay for the enforcement and give up some rights so IP can exist.
Copyright should be weak. Just enough of a carrot for people to do something and if it should error it should be on the side of society and not artists.
@70
Specifically, which lyric? What’s your favorite artist/album. A bit offtopic yes, but I’m a little curious.
@72
So, you say that it’s alright for homeless people to steal food? They can’t afford to pay for groceries/fast food, so it must be fine for them to just take it right? After all, what if they pay for food and it has a piece of hair in it, or it doesn’t taste like they expected?
It’s a bit extrapolated, but it certainly is analogous.
@73
This line did it for me:
“Copyright should be weak. Just enough of a carrot for people to do something and if it should error it should be on the side of society and not artists.”
So the artists, who made the content in the first place, don’t deserve to actually hold the rights to it? Their talent is worthless, when compared to scientists, doctors, and even programmers?
And about IP agencies relying on law enforcement, of course; when a robber cleans out a bank, does the bank manager come out of his office with a machine gun? He relies on authorities, because it’s their job to take care of miscreants.
You say that labels should take care of file sharers, yet when they do a big of vigilante-ism, you’re the first to cry foul.
Yep, talent that does not come to the public is no talent at all and if you are not willing to share anything with society you should keep it to yourself.
If you are not willing to compete and be the best you can be and need legal crutches to maintain a business you should go the way of the dodo’s, furthermore I strongly believe that if someone is good he will always get paid because people will seek him/her out no matter what and he/her will be able to charge what he/she wants.
People all look at recording labels and think that just because they have alot of money makes them evil and therefor therefor that justifies stealing from them. It takes alot of money to run a record label. The money from CDs also partially goes towards the label because it takes alot of money to handle all a band’s affairs. The same is true for any company. Isn’t nabbing any movie or album you see on the internet greedy?
Do banks have or have not private armed security?
@77
Not ones that I’ve banked at here in the US.
And if I were to humor you, we all know what happened when MediaSentry and other such companies were called in to act as private investigators.
Keep a consistent viewpoint, please.
@76
If you’re unwilling to support artists, then just don’t listen to, watch, or enjoy what they put out. It’s that simple.
And those industries do compete; but there’s a huge difference between competing between companies, and competing against thieves who cut off the line of revenue.
Opensource proved that you don’t need to have control over your ideas to get paid do you want a list of profitable companies that make a living out of free software that anybody can reproduce, modify and distribute?
It is not a dream it is not a fairly tail is reality and there is people extracting money from it all around the world and surprise making a profit it even give incentives to work together with rivals because a rival in the other side of the world is not a rival in your local market.
Here want to build a car:
http://www.theoscarproject.org/
Again radio don’t pay labels a cent in the U.S. are radio listeners thieves too?
What then all those films showing the bank guard getting shot are all fiction? damn LoL
@84
Your comment “because a rival in the other side of the world is not a rival in your local market.” was interesting enough. Then again, outsourcing makes that point null.
It appears to be that workers on the other side of the world are rivals to workers at home, eh?
There is no security guards in America so what are these guys?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ari/2347592832/
wow I really need a life!
You see, outsourcing is attractive to the corporate world and IP laws make then gatekeepers of knowledge so they compete in a monopoly where they will take out the competition not by competing but by litigation, if there where no means to do that a lot of people would invest in local manufacturing to sell goods make localy just like it happens with opensource software that have locals build business around freely available software they sell services and make a profit :)
@85
Licensing fees:
http://www.radiomlc.com/
You might want to check google for your country’s specific laws on playing music on the radio/running your own radio station.
@87
Check their armbands. They’re city police officers.
Good fight.
@89
Punctuation would help.
Antitrust laws prevent corporations from completely monopolizing markets or niches.
Why buy lower grade, lower confidence local goods, when you can buy insured, warrantied, and guaranteed corporate goods?
Basically, the industry has a choice.
1) They can either embrace the new technology and keep making money no different than what happened with the VHS, DVD, MP3 Player, ect. All this would take is some out-of-the-box thinking on their end, and i’m sure with all that mney they can come up with something, even if they have to hire ninjas to steal the models from the Pirate Party’s.
2) Keep betraying all their artist’s loyal fans until, at some point, the “piracy” issue becomes such a problem they are forced to close their doors due to money lose. If they claim to be losing millions now, and their current methods aren’t working, it’ll only get worse right?
So yeah, the choice is theirs.
http://www.warezrank.com/ – Bittorrent Topsite List
http://www.compassguard.com/bank-security.htm
Ok and these are police too then?
@94
Linux didn’t stop Microsoft; in fact, even before Linux came around, MS faced competition from Apple. Also, Microsoft has had to pay billions in fines to the EU commission, due to antitrust suits that came out against it.
The MAFIAA fails. period.
its funny reading “#4 someguy” taking heat from other people, his dad must be a politician
It just hit me that you called the American workforce incompetent LoL
I personally know of radio station managers that just shred any billing notices from the record companies.
I mean, the radio stations have to pay to promote music? Seriously, who would do that?
If the radio stations were told to not to play or promote popular music, the radio stations would be forced to playg more locally grown unsigned artist talent.
And thats why the record labels dont take action against the radio stations.
@99
http://news.radio-online.com/cgi-bin/rol.exe/headline_id=b11879
“XM Radio Canada Sued Over Unpaid Music Royalties”
http://www.madisonrecord.com/news/204277-metropolis-radio-station-sued-for-copyright-infringement
“Metropolis radio station sued for copyright infringement”
How much of the thousands of dollar per song pirated won in lawsuits do the artists see?
None.
The MAFIAA HAS adjusted to piracy…but in a different way then we want. They ‘harvest’ us by suing for shitloads of $, instead of finding a way to use piracy to boost sales.
And that is why they will never win.
Apple what? did you see the market share of apple? Besides apple is using linux and webkit.
About the anti trust that didn’t stop Microsoft lobbying the U.S. government for sanctions against a superior OS in other parts of the world did it?
http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/31855.html
The E.U. is in a position that they can say no to American interests the rest who depends on them are not so lucky.
Too little too late
we all knew how was behind this and what it was for and as always the same old excuse.
Just like patents, copyright harms creation and creative people.
to hell with the evil digital Briton report and its calculated, fabricated lies.
I’m a musician. I mean, fuck, I don’t care if people download my music. In fact, it kinda flatters me a bit. I’m just glad that people listen to my stuff, y’know?
I’m moving from Britain after I graduate and am financially stable. This country is run by posh twats who know nothing about how normal people think and are so easily influenced. Lord Mandleson is on the list, he’s such a posh prick. The whole system needs to change, as the times do.
About the radio stations even if they do pay something in other parts of the world still their costumers pay nothing they are pirates?
After all listeners don’t pay for listening to radio stations do they now? Are they not thieves?
Why go after the public? Why not make deals with distributors at reasonable rates and let people listen to music as they have done for decades if not a century by now?
Where is the difference between a kid wanting to listen to the last song of his favorite band on the radio or on the internet?
to bad artists when they remove people form you then you wont have a product to sell AND YOU ALL CAN GO WORK AT macdonalds
I WANT FRIES WITH THAT SLAVE
Ok, people, WHY do you CONTINUE bantering with individuals who are CLEARLY nothing more than Entertainment trolls!?
IGNORE THEM AND THEY *WILL* go away.
I’ve already provided a link (in another post) by Courtney Love -
http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/
There is also a confirmation of her article by a World Music pioneer David Lindley -
http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/letters/2001/03/05/lindley/index.html
I will also bring up (again) what the MPAA said when VHS/Beta tapes were release – “This is the end of the entertainment industry” – Jack Valenti (former MPAA boss).
Their (the entertainment industry) is about ONE THING – CONTROL, period. They are all scared that the will become unnecessary – it’s just a matter of time.
PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!!!
@ 8
High damages do not deter me at all,if they sue me for 100k or a million it doesn’t matter as i could not pay.If however they sued me for a flat fee say 10k then i’d be more worried because that i could afford to pay!
You can’t sue millions of people for ‘piracy’.
http://torrentino.net
PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE MAFIA!!!
If you like the music of an artist/band, send the money DIRECTLY to THEM (a fair price for an album is about 1-5$ for famous artists and about 5-10$ for less known/independent artists).
In the year 2009 every artist is supposed to have his own website with a PayPal/MoneyBookers account. If they don’t and just rely on the mafia, up to them…
I have yet to see credible data that conclusively shows that piracy makes any dent to music sales or that greatly enhances sales.
However, the fact that free distribution of music serves as a viral forms of advertising is described by many marketing and economic experts as well as has been used extensively by labels and artists in the past for groups such as Rolling Stones.
Without such data it is stupid to argue one way or the other.
Ok, here’s what’s up.
I’m second-in-command of a the label Audio Sodomy Records (not a shameless plug, just making a point) and business has started to take off. Why? Because we’re internet based. We’ve already had several physical releases sold, we have dozens of artists (including myself) on board, and it’s all because we’re appealing to the largest market of all time – the internet.
We’re not forcing anyone to buy or donate or anything, it’s freely available. The customers have a CHOICE on whether or not they want to purchase something, and if they want to, they will. I personally haven’t had a single album sold, but I don’t care. I’m not in it for the money, and neither are the people on my label. (that and the fact that most of it is either chiptune or experimental abrasive industrial noise.)
The music industry has forgotten that “the customer is always right.” Even if the industry changes its ways right now, it might be too late.
A dog only has to bite once to be known from then on as the dog that bites.
Interesting that my previous post, linking to proof against the allegation that radios aren’t prosecuted by the music industry was false, was moderated and deleted.
Censorship at its finest.
#79 SomeGuy: “And about IP agencies relying on law enforcement, of course; when a robber cleans out a bank, does the bank manager come out of his office with a machine gun? He relies on authorities, because it’s their job to take care of miscreants.”
Except that the analogy is wrong, again. It’s more like this: someone comes into a bank, and makes photocopies of bank notes, but leaves all the original bank notes in the vault.
Oh, and they didn’t even use the bank’s photocopier, incurring NO costs for the bank at all.
As long as they don’t use the photocopied bank notes to buy something in exchange, harming the bank, where’s the financial harm? The bank has still its bank notes, and is still free to do with them as they wish.
It’s worth repeating: copying is NOT stealing, as it leaves the original in the hands of its owner.
The main issue here is that the whole concept of the so called “intellectual property” is deeply flawed and based on a wrong premise. It aims to create an artificial scarcity of something that is ubiquitous and trivially copyable; thus not scarce at all.
On Earth, you can’t declare air as property; even if you could do so on Mars.
OTOH, physical goods that are naturally limited (e.g. merchandising stuff), and events (e.g. concerts) ARE scarce, and can thus be easily sold.
Bits and bytes aren’t scarce, that’s the bane of the MAFIAA, who couldn’t adapt gracefully to the new world. Had they switched gear back then, giving customers what they wanted, instead of buying draconian anti-piracy laws all over the globe, they’d be in a much better position today.
@99: There is actually a local radio station where I live that plays local and unsigned music only. It’s a hell of a lot better than the other stations.
It’s clearer than ever that the interests of record labels are far different from the interests of artists.
Abolish the labels and let creativity flow.
This is going way back up to SomeGuy’s post @ 16 when he said:
“You understand that labels play a huge role in promoting, production, and management of artists right?”
YOU understand that that’s how the industry USED to work, right? These days, bands are promoted by themselves and people who already listen to them. For the bands who are still small, they work the same way they always have… small gigs word of mouth. As for becoming known out of the city/state/country/etc, communities, such as myspace, last.fm, etc. will get word out faster than a production company.
As for the production part of that argument, anyone with a even a slight knowledge of a mixing board (or various computer programs) can produce an album.
And again, for the management portion, the band can manage themselves. How else would a small band, with no label to their name, still get their name out there?
Some people are jumping up and down, as happy as a five year old with his face in an apple pie.
Some are jumping up and down, pretty much singing hallelujelah, just for they are being noticed.
The first ones are the downloaders, the second ones are the artists.
Everyones happy. Not the least ’cause people are happy to listen to the music then afford buying the concert tickets, which of course used to make artists really f-cking happy, that is until….
In stomps the mafiaa, and tells everyone to just the f-ck stop it. Tells the formerly happy fans that the artist need to get paid for even noticing ‘em.
The artist they command to go f them self, ’cause we’re truly, really, honestly, doing this for you, and besides we got the non-profit-sticker, so believe you me. *cross my fingers and hope to die*
I don’t give a shit if ANYONE cares if I torrent or not….
@previous poster
plz2make sense or gtfo.
in the beginning EMI not only owned the artists they owned the patents on the recording and player technology and they owned the distribution infrastructure the shops the vans the outlets. the industry was theirs
today EMI still manufacturers artistic content for their own networks but they have lost control of the distribution and outlet mechanism. that is where they are hurting! they have lost the profit from the distribution and outlets. if their business model and profits were derived from the artistic creative process then they would still hold the profit today. there is more music available today than ever before. there is more money spent on music today than ever before. EMI are hurting because their profit was not from the artistic process, their profit was from the industrial machine of the technology they employed and modern digital technology has destroyed the record industry. the “record” industry. when did you last buy a “record”? it is still called the record industry because that is its base model. obsolete
profit in an economic model goes to the party best able to appropriate the value of the commodity. the diamond industry has hyped carbon to the degree every bride wants a carbon engagement ring. Microsoft beat all comers by appropriating the value of the pc revolution by selling peices of paper and plastic called “an operating license”. EMI appropriated the value of the recording industry by owning the distribution system
what happens when we live in a world of blood diamonds, global mega-corporations who blackmail the US Government, media cartels who pave a desert with gold? the value of our families, our economic input, our schools, hospitals, our societies, is squandered. too much easy money attracts evil men without moral or code or soul
a blood diamond is no longer an aspirational for the bride and the glamour has faded, but when we started using opensource Microsoft started selling closed game networks and consols once again appropriating the value of a market in which they predominate. while the recording industry suffered a painful death notable entrepreneurs like Richard Branson (the father of the modern recording contract) branched out into digital networks and media distribution securing control of that market by investment and innovation. the MAFIAA so called “representatives” never had an original thought in their lives as they have always profited from exploitation and control. we see the evil in their threats, their attacks against consumers, their disregard for artists, their disdain for technological progress, their manipulation governments and their overall sickening negative attitude
we all spend more today per capita head on media than at any time and the global media cartel of 5 corporations still controls 99% of all consumed media. the strong media companies are profiting, the weak are failing, the stupid ignorant MAFIAA are failing
finally artists have another option. if yesterday’s total price gave 10% to the artist then today they have a chance to take the other 90%. there is no filesharer sitting on a bank account full of savings. the cash in the market remains up for grabs to the best player including the media cartel but now the artist has a mechanism for appropriation of the profits of their own industry. why pay a man 90% when you can take 20% by distributing yourself …
the rebalance of the market into the hands of the artists is but a very small almost insignificant element of the economic rationale of appropriation of value. the MAFIAA losers cynically pointing to the poor artists who are suffering are simply repeating their expoitative tactic because for decades artists have been subject to their slavery and they expect complience from the beaten and bruised body of creativity. it is good to see the artists stand up for themselves
great article. great discussion in the comments. feed the trolls and permit them to show us the evil monsters they truly are
http://www.h33t.com
You do realize that there is alot of behind the scenes work that goes into a band? Record labels handle things like :
-Traveling
-Booking
-Finances
-Promotion
-CD distrobution
-Radio exposure
-Various business deals
-Legal matters
If the labels were removed from the picture, the artists would be faced with handling all the above obligations on their own, which would mean that they could spend less time touring and writing music. So, uhm, yeah… It would actually have the opposite effect.
If you like the music of an artist/band, send the money DIRECTLY to THEM (a fair price for an album is about 1-5$ for famous artists and about 5-10$ for less known/independent artists).
In the year 2009 every artist is supposed to have his own website with a PayPal/Moneybookers account. If they don’t and just rely on the mafia, well, their fault…
@117
brillant comment, congratz
@someguy.
Having read though many of your posts, i still feel that you have missed the key point, that record companies are not what they set out to be originally. the large modern rcord companies, are mainly marketing machines, generating hype over manufactured bands, who work often on salary, and perform songs written at the request of the label for a one off fee, with all copyright held by the label. Or by poaching successful artists from smaller, or independent labels, or tying them into lengthy distribution agreements with stiff penalties for breach of contract, but absolving themselves of any responsibility.
At the end of the day, these companies are businesses, and are only concerned about the bottom line. A&R is pretty much non existent nowadays, with the bigger labels, as there is no need to look for talent when you can just sell anything to the public by the sheer advertising power they have, and at and, if at any point they feel threatened by an emerging artist. just tempting them over with vast sums of cash.
Music was around for thousands of years before record companies existed, and musicians still managed to make a living from it. i’m sure they will again.
also in an earlier post you mention the 7 million filesharers estimate. according to the bbc 4 radio show broadcast on friday, this figure is likely to be more, with with sources stating that its probably more like a third of the population.
The last point, is that alienating your audience(read criminalising them), is not particularly the best way safegaurd the future of your business.
I am personally of the beleif, that all filesharers, should publish publicly, every song they have shared, the time, date, where from and who to, and make this information available to the labels concerned, thus forcing them to either take action against all filesharers(a costly excercise with little to no reward), or put up and shut up, and try to develop new business models that will keep them in business.
I know that there a lot of artists against this idea of punishing people for file sharing.
But i am curious as to how many artists a for the idea. They are the true customers alienators.
Man, we have had so many trolls lately. Years ago it was rare. Now every article there is one or two in the comments.
what a post!!!!! I salute you for that. very very well put indeed.
Thanks.
@118 h33t
absolutely brillant comment (tried to post it already twice but my comments are being deleted)
I bet SomeGuy is one of these super rich artists worrying if they would be able to buy their 8th mansion in the future….
… I stole your musics. lol.
well said h33t
PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE MAFIA!!!
If you like the music of an artist/band, send the money DIRECTLY to THEM (a fair price for an album is about 1-5$, can be more for unknown/independent artists)
post 122 was meant as a reply to post 117 from h33t (numbers get mixed up when posts are deleted)
I’m no expert on this subject. But I feel like most artists are thrilled by the fact that people love their music (excluding Metallica, they love to bathe in money.) Live shows should be the future of music, not album sales.
If the movie and music ‘industry’ vanished overnight (oh god, please let it happen), people would still make movies and music– and better forms. Like they do with software.
Like many of you, I’m banging this out in Firefox under Linux.
I mean, we’re talking about an INDUSTRY after all.
The money-motive sullies art and always will.
Sure artists have to eat, but so do the RIAA/MPAA/et al..
So what.
Google
@128 Bulbidor
“artists have to eat”
For example: Madonna made $250M last year. If she spends $10′000/month (is that enough for food?) she can only last for 2000 years (say hi to Jesus)… and that’s with a 1-YEAR-INCOME only!!!
You people are annoying, some of the things that SomeGuy has said are very true. Like the fact that a lot of money made from the sales of music or movies and video games go into advertising, promotions, the cost of travel, production and many more as well as artist fee actors pay cost of gigs shipping and packaging, you guys are just so blinded with hate that you cant see past how much money one person was sued. So to say piracy doesn’t hurt anyone is just retarded. So for arguments sake lets say that Madonna released a new album and everyone decided ok we don’t need to buy her music because downloading it is much better for her as an artist. So now you have the song writers and musicians and commercials and all the money spent on the discs the packaging and shipping, not to mention the waste of fuel shipping everything everywhere. So everyone involved looses out.
Now before all you tards jump back on saying that wont happen blah blah. Your right, it probably wont ever happen but, the more and more people that download the more and more people don’t buy (look through the comments on this site for the amount of people that claim they don’t or wont buy compared to the amount that say they do before you bitch about this one to!) and with sites like this one with comments saying how bad drm is how bad the mpaa/riaa is and how everyone should boycott buying anything do to with any of these things the amount of sales will drop again. You don’t need hard evidence for this, again just scroll up and look through the comments of people saying don’t buy this or that. As for those of you that say copying isn’t stealing because the original isn’t touched, by that way of thinking it should be perfectly fine for me to walk into Sony take pictures of the patents for the PS3 cell processor and walk out with it then copy it again and post it on the internet for everyone to have, because after all the original is still there untouched. That wouldn’t hurt Sony would it? Don’t be such a turd.
@130 TheTruth:
$250M ay? And what does one do with $250M? Buy up all the land from under people’s feet?
People like miners, garbage collectors, recycling plant workers, nurses, concierges, airport baggage-handlers, etc.?
Artists my 455. A word to the RIAA/MPAA/Mad Donna:
Go volunteer for your communities/charities, and/or work part time at any of the above occupations.
You’re out of touch.
@ SomeGuy:
Looks like you got nothing better to do than to come here and trolling around.
Get a life, you troll.
@ everybody: Let’s just ignore SomgGuy, he’s just a trolling idiot.
Btw, @ SomeGuy:
“110: Interesting that my previous post, linking to proof against the allegation that radios aren’t prosecuted by the music industry was false, was moderated and deleted.”
“@85
Licensing fees:
http://www.radiomlc.com/
You might want to check google for your country’s specific laws on playing music on the radio/running your own radio station.”
Your post is still there. How can you be such a douche? And you said you work for EMI?
If they pay you for posting here, you should have been fired since a looooong time. But what should I expect, they are fools and so are your posts, lol!
You’re just confirming once again your and your companies’ idiocy.
I know flaming is frowned upon but it’s so much fun to read.
Where is NEOSHITE these days?,did he change his name or did he get tired of banging his head against the brick wall that is filesharing?lol.
man you people are ALL morons!!! Get some lives…stop being losers!
I don’t really buy this pirates buy more music than non-pirates theory. As a pirate myself, I don’t buy music I can download, but I would pay to see a band I discovered through piracy and I would also buy merchandise (T’s for example) of the band.
I don’t really buy this pirates buy more music than non-pirates theory. As a pirate myself, I don’t buy music I can download, but I would pay to see a band I discovered through piracy and I would also buy merchandise (T’s for example) of the band.
…and punishing people for piracy is just plain dumb. It is just fanning hatred towards the recording industries. As a musician, the music I finally release is going to be the relaxed creative commons license.
I really want to see the record labels go out of business. They are a cancer! They are parasites that leech from the work of others.
“first?”
No: idiot.
“You should try to actually resolve things like adults, in courts.”
Yeah, suing is the adult way of resolving things. We have already established that you are an idiot. Why do you keep coming back?
“If that were the case, they would’ve long ago stopped supporting new and emerging artists”
What is your insane logic here? They do that to rip them off for money, idiot. You really are stupid. You are the one who needs to do the thinking. If you can…
“if they only asked for the money they felt was directly stolen”
Oh, now there is MONEY being stolen. For fock’s sake. I give up. I can’t take this crap. I have better things to do, moron.
Actually I do think there is a bit of truth there somewhere and just because I do remember very vividly actually that fans tend to scream, pull their hair, get in harms way in the middle of a mob just to see their idol and do strange things like stalking. Devour every bit of information they can get on magazines, spend all their income buying CDs, DVDs, T-shirts, cups, caps, clothes, perfurme and etc.
Fans are a strange kind of people, where logic don’t apply at all. That is why I do believe people who download music over the internet probably are the same people who would go out of their way to see some music star LoL
I don’t buy music and I don’t download music from P2P I use youtube to listen to music over the internet but there is no one I would care to go buy a CD, and I don’t wanna to put more money in the pockets of people who would hurt me.
I’m happy to use services like Jamendo that have a lot of music licensed as CC commons so I know I will not get in trouble, and my time chasing artists to see my favorite ones are over, if they want me to hear them they have to release it with legal guarantees that if I send a sound track to a friend I will not be prosecuted.
@SomeGuy:
I do not believe you are trolling. You arguments are normal and sane, but they work for non-Internet age and the reason why not a lot of people agree with you is because they are probably a bit more informed on the way things work today.
1. Today the industry instead of helping the artist to become popular, only tried to take off their music and videos. Internet is the best tool for exposure, yet they are not using it. Actually, you do not need any label or publisher to use Internet.
2. Most musicians today are mastering their music at home studios. And we are speaking about big pop bands. Like Pet Shop Boys, for instance. Or almost anyone else, to be honest. Thanks to computer technology, you do not need to go to an expensive studio with analogue equipment – all you need is a computer, some midi devices and decent monitors.
3. Music is no longer has to be linked with physical carriers. Selling discs is no longer a business that is based on necessity. Thus, it cannot be successful on a larger scale. Only small scale sales are possible for people who want to collect favourite records.
As simple as that.
Nowadays labels and publishers do slowly change their model to 360: that is, not only sell cds, but also manage shows, other merchandise and corporate events.
#133
I too remember Someliar saying that he worked for EMI, yet he’s now a student. It doesn’t do much for his credibility, does it?
And that’s even before you consider the fact that his arguments are as manufactured as the shite his paylords foist upon us.
The monopoly that they have on the music we hear is outdated and must be smashed in the name of creativity.
I’m looking at it this way… any proffesional artist is going to make enough money to live off doing concerts, etc. any artist who isn’t satisfied with having enough money to survive needs to ask themselves: Am i in this for the love of music, or to make lots of music? if you answered the second one, please gtfo of the media i love so much
wait… i meant to say make lots of money, not music
Music should be priced like popcorn.
Popcorn is useless but give us joy still I wouldn’t pay for a $15 bucks pack of popcorn would you?
@3 you’re wrong. you can copyright a sound. it’s called the Phonograph (P) on a CD, but you cant copyright a file on the internet.
I blogged about this stupid idea of Mandelson’s here: http://evilboss.co.uk/2009/08/26/the-continuing-chronicles-of-the-good-ship-peter-mandelson/
The Kap’n: nice commentary, btw
I’m a douche. Bag.
@78: SomeGuy
“So, you say that it’s alright for homeless people to steal food? They can’t afford to pay for groceries/fast food, so it must be fine for them to just take it right?”
Like EVERY SINGLE person who takes the side of the recording industry (including Reasoned Mind and NeoStyles as well), you also have no clue as to what “stealing” really means. When a poor person takes food without paying, they are physically removing inventory from the shop and therefore that shop loses out on whatever costs were required to obtain that food. This is NOT the same as when somebody downloads a song for free through filesharing because:
1. You are not “taking” anything, you are making a duplicate of existing digital material while leaving the original in tact. The industry’s inventory remains completely in tact BEFORE and AFTER you download. They are not losing ANYTHING. Not only that, but you are using YOUR OWN resources to obtain the media so it is NOT at the industry’s expense at all.
2. Digital media CAN NOT be treated the same way as physical/tangible objects. Copyright law was established before the internet existed and has STILL not been fully updated to suit the times. It is outright moronic at this point to think that downloading = stealing. That’s record label propaganda babble.
3. One download does NOT equal one lost sale yet the industry loves to use this formula to calculate damages in their lawsuits. You can’t assume that every single person who downloaded would have instead bought it if the free version did not exist (I am not talking about people that re-sell other’s work online for cheaper prices because THAT IS wrong as they are profitting off of another’s talents). Like said above, some people wish to preview the ENTIRE album it all its glory first before purchasing. NOT crap quality thirdy second previews on Amazon (seriously, those previews SUCK!) and Amazon doesn’t even let everyone USE their digital distribution network (I know I wasn’t able to buy anything from it and I live in Canada).
Just face it. Filesharing is a competing and FAR SUPERIOR cost free distribution model now and instead of actually adapting to exceed it, the industry is resorting to outlawing the technology entirely. That is why they keep attacking sites like the thepiratebay.org despite the fact that it operates perfectly within the law. Also, I don’t buy your argument that you need the industry to become mainstream. With the internet, you have the entire WORLD MARKET at your fingertips. ANYONE can view your website. It’s just a matter of making yourself known so people will visit (there are several ways to do this online as well such as Jamendo and even imeem). You don’t need any corporate bloats leeching off your pay (unless of course you have no talent since the industry seems to have a knack for making really poor artists extremely rich).
and demonoid now appears down again
I Would not download music at all, IF it would be copyright-free AND works on any computer/mp3-player/phone/anything that can play .mp3s
We’re not taking the side of “teh EvILK rekording industry”. We are taking the side of paying for your things. People like you have become so enamored with freeloading that you don’t understand the simple moral concept of self sacrifice or supporting those who bring you the things you enjoy.
What you are stealing are their interllectual propety rights. Whoever made whatever you are downloading has been granted exclusive rights as to how their work is to be distrobuted.
Also, who gives a crap if you are just duplicating something? Are are still avoiding payment, meaning the creators don’t get anything for their work. How can you not see the moral dilema with this? It’s selfish and it’s greedy.
Uhm, if you actually knew what copyright was, you’de know that it’s a flexible concept.
From wikipedia :
“Copyright gives the author of an original work exclusive right for a certain time period in relation to that work, including its publication, distribution and adaptation”
So clearly, torrenting and other forms of piracy are still covered by copyright, because they deal with distrobution. Just because something isn’t physical doesn’t mean it’s negligable. Those digital movies equate to lost profits/revenue.
You cannot seriously believe that millions of people download things just for the hell of it and that none of them would actually buy things if they couldn’t steal them off torrents? Pirates love to play the “one download does not equal one lost sale” game. Look at gaming. Many times, the install base for any given game on the consoles and PC is very similar yet the revenue from the PC is much, much less, because of rampant piracy. So please, don’t tell me that just because something is digital it makes it okay and that it doesn’t mean lost sales. The selfishness of pirates causes REAL people (who are trying to work hard, something which pirates will never comprehend) to lose their jobs and REAL damage to the econamy. What’s so hard to understand about the importance of paying for things. If people could “sample” the entire album, what’s to garuntee that they would pay a single cent to the artist?
Which leads me to my next point..
Far superior for you maybe, but not for the artists. Try and put yourself in their shoes. What if YOU depeneded on income and people were just freeloading off the internet, not paying you anything and calling “it freedom of culture” or some other load of BS? Pirates don’t know anything about hard work. They want everything to be spoon fed to them.
I guess it never occured to you that money doesn’t grow on trees and that consumers are the only ones that matter? What about the people who’s hard work went into what you enjoy? The industry depends on YOUR money. Simple economics.
Leeching off your pay? It’s THEIR work. What makes you feel like you are entitled? Anyone who takes without paying is parasite.
How are they supposed to make money if everyone choses to download instead of pay? Hmm? I guess you think money grows on trees? The pirate bay does not operate within the law.. Wow..
Please, give me some hard facts. Show me an actual working “better” business model that can result in profits for artists. Also, please go learn what copyright and intellectual property laws are. You clearly don’t know anything, beyond the fact that you think you think that the whole world revolves around you.
@Someguy
Work for the industry don’t you? I’ve been reading some of your posts and you try to justify the money the corps and artists make?
Punishing a single mother with 2 jobs for downloading 8 or so songs with 100K + in fines is a great way to prove your point.
Artist’s at least most are here for the art not money. People like you try to justify that we are stealing money out of their lambo funds.
Boy oh boy these poor artists… britney’s home was worth like $23 mil metallica around 40 mil.
These poor starving artists.
Same with the movie industry. For example….
Take Keanu Reeves; he made aprox 20 million per matrix movie. We “theives” are made to look like the criminals because we took away from the industry to pay for fire marshalls, makeup, sound, crew in general.
I got a great plan!!! We take 17 million of the 20 he made from each film and use the 17 million to pay the crew just from his pay alone.
These poor poor celebs. Opera in a 65 bedroom house and shes single! WTF is this world coming to, we are going to bankrupt opera if we read her stupid O magazine online instead of buying it.
It is time to change the world!
Boycott the RIAA and MPAA.
Stop these bullies from suing innocent people!
@.neo.styles|nvDX: here’s something for you and your fellow IFPI supporters to ponder.
I’m a 2x published computer book author; and both books took approx 9 to 10 income-less months of intensive research, writing and copy-editing to get ready. Yes, writing technical books is hard and time-consuming work. And it doesn’t pay well.
Now, my first book is long since out of print (the other is still available); and guess what? It’s being pirated on P2P torrents. Am I upset? No, of course not: the book is out-of-print, and nobody except some 2nd hand sellers lose anything if it is being copied. I not only don’t care: it’s the only way people can grab a copy. If I could get back the copyright, I’d immediately put it under a CC-BY-NC-ND license.
Would you accept a change in copyright law, so that works that are out-of-print (for more than, say, 1 or 2 years) shall automatically go to the public domain? That would be the only way to save culture that nobody is caring for anymore. I’d like this solution a lot, as it would bring some common sense back into IP laws.
Now to the 2nd book that’s still in print, and that is (slightly) pirated as well: does my publisher care? Of course he does. He invested money upfront to pay the copy-editor and layouter, and to pay the costs of printing, promoting and distributing (it’s a physical book). Do I care? Yes, but only slightly: I only get some 6% of the final price tag per book, so I do lose some money to piracy, but not fortunes — even though I could use every penny, as I’m not rich.
BUT I don’t care all too much: even though I’ve spent the 9 months without income to prepare that second book, it was a work of love, and I never expected that book to sell more than 20,000 to 30,000 copies anyway. So even if some pirates didn’t buy a physical copy (it was more expensive than I would have loved it to be, but that was out of my hands), so what? It will sell 10,000 to 15,000, and that’s enough to make many readers happy and help them solve their problems and earn a lot more money than I did helping them.
Yet all this is nothing compared to the benefits I reap from being known in my field, as I get invited for talks and being sought for as a freelancer from companies who would otherwise not have known me if some of their employees hadn’t illegaly fetched one or both of my books from torrents.
So, all in all, I think that copyright infrigement FOR NON COMMERCIAL PURPOSES isn’t all that bad. It does have upsides too.
That’s why I think that Copyright Law ought to be reformed: let copyright expire for works that become officially unavailable for a while, and legalize the right of private non-commercial copying. The second point is certainly debatable, but the first point should be a matter of common sense.
Instead of rabidly defending the IFPI maximalist point of view, why won’t you help us all create a better coyright law? If we don’t do this soon, the whole concept of IP will break down, and that’s not good either.
http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/index1.html
[QUOTE]What you are stealing are their interllectual propety rights. Whoever made whatever you are downloading has been granted exclusive rights as to how their work is to be distrobuted.
Also, who gives a crap if you are just duplicating something? Are are still avoiding payment, meaning the creators don’t get anything for their work. How can you not see the moral dilema with this? It’s selfish and it’s greedy.[/QUOTE]
That is STILL not “stealing”. It is “copyright infringement”. There is a difference in that stealing is a “criminal” offence and (depending on your country’s copyright laws) downloading is a “civil offense”. In some countries (like mine), it is perfectly legal to download for non-profit/personal use. In my case, the creators WILL get something for their work if I like the product well enough to put forth money for it (and don’t claim otherwise because you don’t even know me). Freeloaders do exist though (especially students that have very little money all thanks to ridiculously overpriced tuition fees and textbooks) but it is a fruitless effort trying to manipulate laws in order to milk money out of people who don’t want or can’t pay in the first place. That is not to say that once students graduate and get a decent income that they won’t start paying tribute where it is due.
[QUOTE]Uhm, if you actually knew what copyright was, you’de know that it’s a flexible concept.[/QUOTE]
Yes. If media wasn’t covered by copyright as well, the labels would have no grounds to file lawsuit so you are right there. I was only pressing the point that it does need to be changed to suit the times and holders SHOULD NOT have pretty much the same powers as actual law enforcement agencies because their own interests will always come before that of the people.
[QUOTE]You cannot seriously believe that millions of people download things just for the hell of it and that none of them would actually buy things if they couldn’t steal them off torrents? Pirates love to play the “one download does not equal one lost sale” game. [/QUOTE]
It’s simple. If there was no free download, then they would just do without and/or wait until a download became available. The “one download does not equal one lost sale” argument exists because some people that download do end up buying the media later on and for the ones that don’t, the industry never lost anything to begin with as those pirates used THEIR own bandwidth which they paid for to get the media (and as I said before, inventory remains unaffected).
[QUOTE]Look at gaming. Many times, the install base for any given game on the consoles and PC is very similar yet the revenue from the PC is much, much less, because of rampant piracy.[/QUOTE]
I look on thepiratebay and similar torrent sites and and I see plenty of pirated Xbox 360, PS3, Wii, etc games so I haven’t a clue what you’re talking about when you say it is only problematic on the PC platform. In fact it’s even easier to pirate on consoles than ever before since all you essentially need to do is install hacked firmware (whereas before, some basic knowledge of electronics was required in order for you to sodder a mod-chip onto the console’s main board).
The REAL reasons PC sales are down are because:
1. There is a larger market of console gamers.
2. There are many more games released on consoles (so no, the install base is nowhere near the same)
3. DRM is far more prevalent on PC games and that upsets A LOT of gamers (see the articles on Spore and Chronicles of Riddick – Assault on Dark Athena)
4. Crappy ports and/or broken releases ruin the PC platform’s reputation. This is yet another reason for me to download and test a game first to make sure the thing actually works properly.
5. The economy is poor now and PC gaming is FAR more expensive due to the price of the required hardware.
The gaming industry only likes to THINK that piracy is a MAJOR factor for the same reason as the music/movie/etc industry. At this point, you should really read that article on here titled “Study Finds Pirates Buy 10x More Music Online than Non-Pirates” (Google it!). I fit into that category in terms of PC games. I’ve bought way more PC games than ever before because I have had the liberty to give them a full test run first.
[QUOTE]So please, don’t tell me that just because something is digital it makes it okay and that it doesn’t mean lost sales. [/QUOTE]
I was referring to the acquisition method, not the media’s form. A lost digital sale is possible and would involve from either:
1. Someone hacking into an online music site and downloading their albums without paying. The online store’s bandwidth is thereby being wasted with no income in return.
2. Someone selling another artist’s work for a lesser price online and then directly profiting from it. Naturally a consumer will buy it for less yet the money is not going to the individual it was meant for.
[QUOTE]The selfishness of pirates causes REAL people (who are trying to work hard, something which pirates will never comprehend) to lose their jobs and REAL damage to the econamy. What’s so hard to understand about the importance of paying for things.[/QUOTE]
First off, I KNOW you have no solid evidence to back up your claims that piracy has cost people jobs. This is just mere speculation on your part but do feel free to link me to the solid proof if you have it. Secondly, people who are truly loyal to the artists they listen to will support them by:
1. Attending concerts
2. Buying merchandise
3. Sending donations
The difference between doing that and buying a CD is how the former benefits the artists directly and not some greedy middle-man who screws over artists and consumers alike.
[QUOTE]If people could “sample” the entire album, what’s to garuntee that they would pay a single cent to the artist?[/QUOTE]
And how am I supposed to know if something is worthwhile putting hard earned money out in the first place when I can’t sample it first? Why should consumers pay for something “they may or may not like” when they could buy something that they are “guaranteed to like”. The former model only hides those very poor albums that maybe have one or two worthwhile songs on them (yet you paid for all twenty or so).
[QUOTE]Far superior for you maybe, but not for the artists. Try and put yourself in their shoes. What if YOU depeneded on income and people were just freeloading off the internet, not paying you anything and calling “it freedom of culture” or some other load of BS? Pirates don’t know anything about hard work. They want everything to be spoon fed to them.[/QUOTE]
If my works were pirated, I would call it “FREE ADVERTISING FOR THE WIN!!!!!”. Why on earth do you think some artists will purposely put their works on torrent sites for everyone to download? Why do you think Jammendo even exists where everyone can download full albums put up by the artists themselves? The answer is because it’s the best way to get known without some greedy middle-man taking a massive chunk of your profits. I have discovered plenty of new artists through downloading who I would have never known I actually like had I just followed the music industry’s rigid model. I can then choose to do any of the three actions above that loyal fans do. None of which involve the music industry who do not create anything but TRUELY leech from other people’s hard work and then sue potential customers in the name of artists who probably would have never wanted any part of it.
[QUOTE]I guess it never occured to you that money doesn’t grow on trees and that consumers are the only ones that matter? What about the people who’s hard work went into what you enjoy? The industry depends on YOUR money. Simple economics.[/QUOTE]
If consumers are the “only ones that metter”, then the industry should stop ticking us off with their nonsense. Suing customers for ludicrous damages ins’t exactly going to entice others to support them. Neither is robbing artists of the share they are truely entitled to.
[QUOTE]Leeching off your pay? It’s THEIR work. What makes you feel like you are entitled? Anyone who takes without paying is parasite.[/QUOTE]
You completely misread what I wrote. I said the music industry is LEECHING off of the artist’s pay which is entirely true. The artists get paid far less per album sale than they deserve. Why would I want to support a business that does that anyway? Artists would be better off doing their own advertising and distribution.
[QUOTE]How are they supposed to make money if everyone choses to download instead of pay? Hmm? I guess you think money grows on trees? The pirate bay does not operate within the law.. Wow..[/QUOTE]
Once again, read what I wrote above about loyal fans. Also, the DMCA does not apply to the entire world (and THANK GOD for that). Most do not have to deal with that level of strictness because the country’s leaders know that laws should favour the people that live there and not some greedy businesses.
[QUOTE]Please, give me some hard facts. Show me an actual working “better” business model that can result in profits for artists. Also, please go learn what copyright and intellectual property laws are. You clearly don’t know anything, beyond the fact that you think you think that the whole world revolves around you.[/QUOTE]
It is not my job to come up with an exact business model. It is up to the industry to adapt. However, they are probably not going to because they want to hold onto their dying traditions where THEY were the monopoly and had full control over all artists and how music was distributed. It was either “use them or you don’t prosper”. Now the internet makes distributors pointless because artists can do it easily themselves.
@ #163 ‘me’
Well done sir. Great post!
It seems like a revolution against major recording industries is brewing.
“Violence won’t get you anywhere”
We will see about that.
I haven’t bought a single CD since 1999. But have 20K songs in my library. “The people who share music are dedicated music fans who actually buy more music than their non-pirating friends.” is very true. Thanks for the whole original and digitally remastered Beatles library, torrent dudes.
keep the piratebay alive so sign up at http://www.theghostbay.org/
I´m a musician and certainly I need the bucks, but with no file sharing there´s no way to be known, so thanks P2P…and f***k the music industry…I would spit in your faces unless you were on fire…what a quote dude!
http://www.myspace.com/vulturgore
@78
“So, you say that it’s alright for homeless people to steal food?”
Yes it is alright since the society should not let them be homeless.
“The sacred hunger, this long legitimate crime.” Leconte Delisle.
The purpose of societies is to help individual survive and not to fatten few parasites.
Others social species such as wolves and dogs help each others .
Why not human? After all this is a social specy too. Isnt it?
If that were the case, they would’ve long ago stopped supporting new and emerging artists (maybe even giving up new music production entirely) to instead pursue online filesharers.
Think before you speak.
http://www.forexqs.blogspot.com
copyright law was originally designed to protect creatives against distribution. it was not intended to protect the distributors
http://www.h33t.com
@ djnforce9 : Nice one ;)
@ theghostbay : stop your useless spamming please…
@174:
Thank you. Let’s just see if neostyles, reasoned mind, or even Someguy (whom I originally replied to) has anything further to say against my above arguments. However, I don’t think anything we say on here will change their perception of pirates as selfish freeloaders that leech off of other people’s hard work (even though that is clearly not true for many of us).
Also, I too have noticed theghostbay posting the same thing in every article. It’s posts like those that make me wish the karma system was re-introduced so we could bury spam like that. What he’s doing is just a cheap ploy to advertise is personal website (which looks very poorly put together too and of which I would NEVER go anywhere near because who knows what scams he may have up his sleeve given that he advertises so agressively).
In the end, I hope there are always some sources of free music.
That’s so true [file sharers buy more]. One of the heaviest downloaders I know is looking for a bigger apartment to make more place for his CDs and DVDs.
I also buy but not that much lol. And I know at least 5 more ppl that download b4 buying – those are the ones that already discussed the theme with me.
In any case, this failure of a industry represented in our community as MAFIAA (and merry friends) will keep failing to see this.
Imagine everybody in a small room, just wanting to listen to music, having a good time and then….
BOOM! A bunch of men in black tying everyone up and throwing them in a big white van.
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