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Prove Piracy Losses Says Digital Economy Bill Amendment

In the first sitting, dozens of proposed amendments to Britain’s Digital Economy Bill started to move through the Lords committee stage yesterday. One interesting amendment put forward requires that when copyright holders inform ISPs of a file-sharing infringement, they must also put a value on it.

Yesterday, a “line by line examination” of Britain’s Digital Economy Bill took place during the first sitting of the House of Lords committee stage.

There are 74 proposed amendments to the Bill.

In terms of file-sharing, amendments are suggested to the section which obliges ISPs to inform their customers that an infringement has taken place via their account.

In addition to informing subscribers who have allegedly infringed themselves or subscribers who allow another individual to use their account to infringe, the following category is proposed:

“..infringement of the owner’s copyright appears to have taken place through peer-to-peer filesharing networks on a subscriber’s IP address;”

This means that all copyright infringements that occur on an IP-address will be attributed to the person who pays for the account.

As pointed out by PaidContent, this addition is “sure to rile campaigners who protest that IP numbers do not correspond to identity.”

However, another amendment asks for the removal of the clause which allows action to be taken against subscribers whose connection was used to infringe copyright by someone other than the subscriber.

Amendment 52, proposed by Lord Lucas, states that the copyright infringement reports sent to ISPs by rights holders should also set out “the value of the infringement on the basis described in the initial obligations.”

This is an interesting one. When an anti-piracy company working on behalf of the music and movie industries track an infringement, it is only possible for them to track a single infringement, for example, the uploading of one track, movie, or part thereof. It is impossible for them to prove any additional infringement took place, i.e uploading the same to others.

This means that not only will the reported loss per infringement be very low, but it could also force the rightsholders to claim that an upload to the anti-piracy company equates to a lost sale.

Amendment 71 from Lord Whitty asks for the section below to be completely removed;

…the number and nature of copyright infringement reports relating to the subscriber may be taken into account for the purposes of any technical measures.

Should the amendment be accepted, this suggests that taking technical measures (3 strikes, throttling) on the basis that a subscriber has been ‘caught’ multiple times, will be disallowed.

There are also amendments tabled to change a number of instances where the term “infringement” should be changed to read “infringement allegations”.

The next sitting of the committee stage will be heard January 12th.

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  • Anonymous

    Good to see that there are some cooler heads focusing on this issue. The IP liability thing is BS, but good luck to a watchdog company in proving multiple infringements- though I think a clever company would wait until several uploads had taken place before taking action. However, this would still only prove a handful of uploads at best, and nothing near the massive amounts that Big Content like to assume.

    Also, a preemptive message…

    @Reasoned Mind

    Obvious troll is obvious.

  • Anonymous

    Wow… Common sense has hit.

  • http://www.eZee.se www.eZee.se

    Some common sense as well as ‘fairness suggestions’????

    Someone on big contents bribing committee has screwed up!

    It really is good to see that there are some people out there who are actually looking out for ‘the commoners’ and not brown tonguing.

  • Reasoned Mind Not

    This is pointless if people use VPN or hide their activity, etc.

    @Reasoned Mind

    Obvious troll is obvious.

  • A non moose

    It could be that the Lords have heard people screaming about the unfairness of what has been proposed and fear the consequences of acting solely for the benefit of the media industry. Maybe they do remember the 5th of November!

    @raisin brain
    Any comment you make will immediately be shredded for poor logic and a complete lack of understanding of the problem. Take your sock puppets off your hands and stuff one in your mouth and the other up your a$$!

  • Bad MoJo

    I would like to point out the obvious.
    If this forum was attended solely by either faction, pro or anti.

    It would die from boredom.

    One of the great things about a
    NEUTRAL internet is that anyone can comment. (opposed to china and as others would like to change it to be.)

    Peace out.

  • Reasoned Moose

    but hes still a shill and likes to try to tell other people that their breaking the law and all that even though they arent

  • Rabbit80

    Thank you Lord Lucas…

    It’s such a shame that he may not keep his peerage… Lord Lucas is by far the most switched on Lord re internet and privacy issues – and is defending our rights to the last!

  • Rabbit80

    Looking through the amendments, there are a few other points I consider to be interesting…

    59 Page 6, line 27, at end insert—
    “(4A) An internet service provider may recover costs, reasonably incurred in sending a notification report under this section, from the copyright owner.
    (4B) A copyright owner may dispute the charge levied by the internet service provider under this section by appeal to OFCOM on the grounds that the charge does not represent costs reasonably incurred in sending the notification.”

    So – ISP’s can pass the costs back to the industry (IE the £500 million they say it will cost?)

    Also – those who are claiming the infringement must must include a sworn statement that they own the copyright… Since we already know of many occasions that the labels have used works without owning the copyright, this could lead to some interesting results – and could potentially cost them a fortune as they will be asked to prove their ownership at virtually every appeal!

    The fact that they will have to prove losses may also stop these John Doe lawsuits from ACS Law as the copyright owners have to follow this procedure (three strikes) before pressing charges.. imagine pressing charges against someone when you have already given them evidence that they only caused you £1 in losses!

  • anon2

    i just hope that what we are seeing here is not just a token gesture. when it comes right down to it, are they then going to ‘cave in’ the same as has happened before, but be able to say ‘sorry, we did are best to oppose this stupid bill but have been ignored and therefore failed’? they would then appear to be ‘the peoples champions’ because they tried, even though they failed, when in reality, they had no serious intention of opposing the bill in the first place! i suppose contributing factors could be how friendly any/all of them are with that f***ing moron Mandy and how much respect they have, or not, for him.

  • Reasoned Mind

    I am an obvious troll.

  • Tor

    “This means that not only will the reported loss per infringement be very low, but it could also force the rightsholders to claim that an upload to the anti-piracy company equates to a lost sale.”

    Didn’t you follow the TPB case? The copyright holders will just calculate the hypothetical licensing fee for making the DRM free work available to the number of torrent users out there. That can be a huge amount of money, even if it’s just a single upload.

    “the value of the infringement on the basis described in the initial obligations.”

    Price doesn’t equal value and the purpose of copyright is to add value to society. If you think about it a bit, translating such a value to a price is just as difficult as translating the value of having read this TorrentFreak article into a money figure.

  • Boycott

    From the BBC

    “However, downloads are not generally as profitable to the industry as physical products. And despite the healthy state of singles sales, these do not usually generate significant profits for record companies, who look to album sales to recoup the investments they make in up-and-coming bands and singers.”

    In this day and age the record company expect people to buy bulky CDs. Today people use MP3 players. Nobody bothers with portable CD player, just too bulky, CD change, etc. No way. One MP3 = loads of Albums.

    Keep up with the times!

  • at Reasoned Mind

    @Reasoned Mind

    You are a troll and it is obvious.

    Just read your own post. It’s that obvious.

  • haa

    reasoned mind vpn ha up yours sucker

  • Recton Kracke

    Just as I predicted this ‘digital economy bill’ is in the early stages of being watered down to mediocrity.

    Next it will be put on the back burner because of real issues like terrorism, High seas piracy, war, environment and unemployment.

    The United Kingdom general election is due to take place on or before Thursday 3 June 2010, = its all over for Gordon Brown’s Labour party.

    Before then if you do get a letter from ACS law or any of the other extortionists demanding cash; Just EXPENSE it.

  • Anonymous

    Expense it? Put it on Expenses?

  • Reasoned Mind

    They’ll get you yet and when they do they’ll put you in the ASPCA you maingey mutt

  • Reasoned Mind

    I’m 12 and what is torrentz? Can I haz cheeseburger?

  • Ninja

    Seems Reasonable Mind is loved here. Although I agree he has the right to express himself even though most of what I read from him is out of touch with reality there were times when he said really reasonable things (none of those times come to mind now though).

    In any case, it’s good to see many Lords agree that Mandy Bill is draconian. There are issues in the amendments too but just the fact that it’s being reviewed is pretty good for something Mandy wanted to shove down the British throats.

    It’d be interesting to calculate the value of the losses. I remember a torrent that I had a 6.3 ratio but I had downloaded less than 10% of it. So basically I uploaded 6 times the same content (or even more since I could have uploaded the same Mb of data several times). How do you put value in that? And considering that the uploaded data was over the total size of the torrent (i.e.: I transferred more than the size of torrent even though I haven’t finished it), how can you prove I uploaded all the content? Might have some chunks that weren’t uploaded…. Oh and if I downloaded, liked and bought the CD/media/whatever?

    It’s much more complicated than Mandy and MAFIAA think lmao. A good denfense with an unbiased and informed judge (and trial) would be enough to demolish each an every argument from MAFIAA and merry friends.

  • anon

    @Recton Kracke
    What the hell do you mean expense it?

  • Rboy

    In the days of Cassette with the advent of the dual cassette recorder everyone had copies of music they got from friends. At that time there was only sneaker net and the music industry got a tax on blank media. Here is the thing if I bought music it was because I heard in on the radio when kids actually listened to the radio or got a copy from a friend. So here is the point if I liked a group I may have bought if i did not like it I did not buy it. Either way a share did not equal a lost sale. Some Libraries have massive collections of music I could rip all the music and have a massive collection without downloading a single track. In my opinion establishing a real loss is almost impossible. The only real way would be to shutdown the internet completely for a few months and see what the changes to sales are. In my opinion they would drop considerably. Why? Without internet exposure all media would have to rely on largely word of mouth. People can actually live without TV movies and music these are luxuries not necessities. This is another reason a download does not equal a sale. I only have a limited amount of disposable money so all downloading allows me to do is enjoy something I would have to wait to see or hear in a free format. It does not equal a lost sale because I could not have bought it anyway. So how do you really calculate a lost sale? The industry assumes we have to see or hear their media but the truth is we don’t. Finally on a technical basis how would they prove a share ratio? As pointed out a 1 to 1 share ratio does not even mean you shared even one whole copy it is only the sum of many parts. So again I ask how do you prove a loss? What is your liability if you shared only a few parts? I honestly don’t know how people have lost file sharing cases because I know of no snooping technology that can prove you actually distributed independently by yourself a whole copy regardless of your ratio. Legally at most you could feasibly be responsible for contributory sharing and be responsible for only a portion. Again how do you prove the value losses?

  • wow

    At least, even though it will be passed, it’s being reduced in power.

  • JTK

    Good to see progress is being made, but let’s face it, when it comes to making up bullshit losses, the entertainment industry are experts.

  • JTK

    …And, hey, we’re all evil thieves anyway, not like those MPs, who’d NEVER put porn films on expenses so we all pay for them… Oh, wait…

  • The Old Codger

    @ 25 Jan 07, 2010 at 22:48 by JTK

    Could I also add the following to your comment if I may.

    Those MPs that have been found with their hand in the honey-pot (so far 100)are resigning at the next election but the best part of this is that they will get a year’s salary for doing so.

    Now if I ripped off my employer he would call the police and I’d be jailed and have a criminal record for the rest of my life AND no golden handshake.

    Remember we are the ones employing these MPs – Something to think about.

  • do not have money

    infringement
    what a stupid name

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  • Duke

    Just a minor point, there are actually 299 proposed amendments across 6 pages – the first 74 are just the first page. Some of them were even proposed by Lord Mandelson himself (who couldn’t be bothered to turn up for the debate, it seems).

    I watched nearly all of the discussion yesterday (thanks to the internet!) and had some of my faith in the British parliamentary system restored; several of the Lords definitely seemed to understand what they were talking about (there was at least one analogy involving an iPhone and Charles Dickens and a reference to “silver surfers”; the Lords is so much more fun than the Commons). Note: these are the appointed or hereditary peers, not the elected MPs – most likely they will all just fold and do what the government tells them to.

    Anyway, in the 3ish hours they debated yesterday they got through the first 19 of 299 amendments, and the first of 49 clauses. This could take a very long time. Unfortunately, none of the amendments held, with the government’s minister (Mandelson’s deputy) essentially saying “but we don’t intend this law to be used or interpreted like that, so we don’t need to make it clear in the legislation”, or in one case that he didn’t “think that there’s much at stake in this particular amendment”.

    Anyways, we’ll see what happens in the next sessions; in the mean time, the Pirate movement is doing what it can.

  • Reality

    I love this constant association between piracy and lost revenue. Out of all the stuff i download i buy the stuff i like and get rid of the other stuff.

    I think the best formula for to calculate lost revenue is

    Lost revenue from a decline in physical media sales + lost potential sales from a lack of viable alternative to piracy + lost revenue from boycotts due to their refusal to innovate and constant raping of innocent people.

    Downloading is lost revenue ONLY because the music industry refuses to adapt to the demands of the market

  • CottonEyeJoe

    Common sense tried to prevail. Let’s hope it reaches the finishing line :)

  • Recton Kracke

    @ #21 anon

    I meant you could claim it as an expense. You know like a duck hut, or a second property. Like an upstanding British MP.

    It was a lame attempt at comedy on my part.

  • Reasoned Mind

    All of you with the “obvious troll is obvious” posts against me are just immature whiners. You can’t stand to hear real, rational, reasoned arguments against your digital pilfering, so you use personal attacks to silence the dissent. Way to go pirates.

    I’m glad to see the fine ladies and gentlemen of the UK government taking a firm stance against piracy, and I applaud Lord Mendleson for his actions in this regard. I also agree with assigning liability to account owners- if someone who owns a connection does not take the necessary steps to prevent piracy, they’re just as guilty as the pirates themselves.

    Mark my words, thieves. The day is coming when you won’t dare even think about stealing content, out of fear of being sent to the work camps. If fear is what governments and industries must use to curb theft of legitimate digital product and untold billions of dollars in subsequent losses, then that’s what it will come to. You brought this on yourselves, and each of you will be held accountable for your actions.

  • Anonymous

    And you will be the first to get a bu11et in the head when the riots start caused by your beloved nazis!

  • Anonymous

    @32

    Just like we said, obvious troll is obvious.

  • Freaky

    @Reasoned Mind

    The day will come when someone hacks your wireless and you go to jail on behalf of the law you voted for.

    And when you are in there being molested by the other prisoners you will have a long time to think about how good that law you voted for was.

    Also may i remind you that the law has been created to reinforce common sense as in have written obligations that match the majority’s belief.

    Law is there to press a standard in the individuals. It mirrors the habits and beliefs of the majority.

    Law is also created to protect and grant rights to the wide public.

    Law is there to serve the citizen.

    Now law in 2010!
    - is here to force the many to the will of the few.
    - is here to enslave entire nations.
    - is here to be used to milk the population of every last cent on behalf of company’s.
    - is here to turn a citizen with full rights & privileges in to cash cows.

    I don’t know who and where you are but think that you may not have the mental capacity to realize what is going on around you, and to critically asses loopholes in legislation and how it may affect yourself.

  • Lothor The Evil

    @5 A non moose
    ["Take your sock puppets off your hands and stuff one in your mouth and the other up your a$$!"]

    I’m sorry. I just HAD to respond. That is one of the funniest things I’ve ever heard! That’s EXACTLY what the industry needs to do.
    And it’s about damn time some politicians listen to the people. Because if they don’t, the people will revolt.

  • Lothor The Evil

    @32 Reasoned Mind

    First: Did you even read the article? It seems to me that, yes they are taking a stand against piracy, BUT, they are rethinking how they are going to do it, possibly not be quite as strict as they originally had planned due to outcry of the citizens and civil rights groups.

    Second: It has been proven that even a secure wireless internet signal can be hacked easily by somebody who knows what they are doing. So even if a person DOES take the proper steps to secure their signal, you still think they are to blame?

    Third: Fear becomes anger, and anger leads to rebellion. Trust me…it never worked and never will to enslave the people by fear, at least not for a long time. Eventually that fear will lead to total anger and hate. Then, rebellion and war.

    And Fourth: Just admit how much of a douche you are already so we don’t have to keep saying it.

  • Whatever

    On its own the following implies a suspicion with the word “appears”, so you only get a letter you are a suspect.

    “..infringement of the owner’s copyright APPEARS to have taken place through peer-to-peer filesharing networks on a subscriber’s IP address;”

    Its a loophole which causes plausible deniability (words taken from truecrypt). It does not say it actually happened so you can get 1000′s of meaningless letters as they cannot disconnect or let anyone pay on even a 1000 “suspicions”. The moment a letter comes to go to court you just wipe the files and do a cleanup of traces afterwards.

    @reasoned troll
    Are you stealing ‘time’ again ? See a few aricles back since you have all the time in the world to search for it.

  • Reasoned Mind

    Yawn… I’m feel so bored here. Will anyone please sodomize me? anyone?

  • Anonymous

    @32 – It’s Mandelson

    Oh and i’d like to point out that none of this cash is going to you, why are you defending your right to pay for something that can be gotten free, natural selection says we should do otherwise, unless your mother being your sister made you fail natural selection

  • Reasoned Mind

    I call my sis mom :(

  • Anonymous

    This bill is a total waste of tax money. Scrap it now. It should never see the light of day.

    There are significantly more innovative ways to tackle this problem. Involving the government is the worst possible option.

  • Oromis

    I am gay

  • Mandleson

    If we take the simple case of Ockham’s razor, if there are many possible solutions the correct one is usually the simplest.

    The simplest solution to why what mandleson is:

    hes a cunt.

  • hms-one

    Speak the tolls name and he shall appear. I counted 10 references to raisin brain on this thread before he even posted, and at least as many following his pathetic screed.

    Better informed comment/troll roasting ratio please. I should not have to scroll past that troll even when he’s NOT POSTING.

    Thank You.

    @28 by duke

    Thanks for the info, it seems one can always count on the brit’s to come thru w/ news on this topic.

    Do you know if any of the interesting amendments mentioned here were specifically defeated? In other words, See any bad news for our side in your lords watchin?

    @22 liked your comment, but..WALL OF TEXT

    It is true that the packeted nature of torrents, and the impossibility of proving a 1:1 copy, makes any prosecution of p2p highly dubious. This FACT, however, has never stopped successful prosecutions before.

  • Duke

    @45 by hms-one: They only got to amendment 19 during that session, so none of the ones mentioned in the article were reached (and a few of those 19 were skipped or bundled together). There were a few interesting points to the discussion, but as they were focussing mainly on the proposed new duties to Ofcom (the UK’s independent regulator and authority for the communications industries) there wasn’t much about the main issues of the Bill.

    Much of the discussion was over the wording and the meaning behind specific words or phrases (such as “particular” on page 1, line 7, “appropriate” in lines 8 and 10, and “wherever possible” in line 12) and the possible interpretations these words could have – that should give some idea of the level of detail the Lords were going into.

    Of course, the minister just stuck to blunt reassurance about everything so no real progress was made, but the fact that the entire first clause passed by 106 votes to 55 shows just how close this could get.

    If anyone is particularly interested, a full transcript of the debate can be found here: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldhansrd/index/100106.html#contents but there’s quite a lot of it.

  • A non moose

    Duke, thanks for the excellent info. Do you have a link for the site where you watched this? Sounds like to me they were arguing/debating over semantics, which is what our favorite sock puppeteer claims we try to use in our defense unlike his “real, rational, reasoned arguments”!

  • JTK

    A spokesman for Geffen Records said: “Every time you download a track illegally you’re stealing a tiny fragment of one of the diamonds in David’s massive pile of diamonds that just sits in a big heap in one of the enormous houses he doesn’t even know he’s got.

    “Do you really want that on your conscience? What do you think Kurt Cobain would say if he was still alive?”

  • Duke

    @47 by A Non Moose

    The meetings are all aired on http://www.parliamentlive.tv – the next one will be here http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=5496 (I think). It will likely also be aired on the BBC’s “Democracy Live” on their House of Lords section. As with the last couple of sessions there will likely be a live discussion on the debate in the Pirate Party UK’s irc channel (http://www.pirateparty.org.uk/chat/).

    More information on the Bill itself can be found here: http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2009-10/digitaleconomy.html

  • Anonymous

    Okay, guys, here is the funny thing…

    That post, #32, by Reasoned Mind? That wasn’t the real Reasoned Mind. It was me, an anon poster who argues with RM and neo. I was posting like he does, but I was also ridiculing him with the extreme measure of my posting. I mean, work camps? Come on. I wouldn’t put it past him to honestly support that notion, though…

    The point is that everyone here thought he was the real Reasoned Mind. I apologize for the deception, but it proves a point: Nobody here thought the post was too extreme for Reasoned Mind, proving that he’s either just a troll or is an extremist idiot.

    I propose the adoption of a version of Poe’s Law (for fundamentalism) as applied to filesharing: “Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humour, it is impossible to create a parody of antipiracy that someone won’t mistake for the real thing.” My suggestion for the name is neo’s law, in reference to the neostyles idiot who likes to troll this site. Or RM’s Law. Whichever.

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  • Jed Moore

    i believe that if more digital content was available free i.e. Spotify we would all download less. I rarely download music now since i was lucky enough to get one of the free accounts and the stuff that i like i usually buy. Now all we need is the same thing for movies.

  • your name here

    Here’s a nice catch-22:

    If they actually have to prove copyrights were infringed upon, and they do this by grabbing a copy from someone.

    Now in case they have the rights to do so, then it isn’t an infringement.

    But on the other hand, if they don’t, they are breaking the law themselves, which apparently is illegal…

  • MultiCast-DHT Tunnels

    duke see:
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/12/bpi_uk_takedowns/

    “Exclusive Record label trade association the BPI wants sweeping changes to UK online copyright practice in 11th hour amendments to the Digital Britain bill.

    The amendments would grant copyright holders injunctions against websites and service providers similar to the US DMCA act – but with no ‘safe harbour’ provision to verify whether the claim is merited, according to documents seen by The Register.

    “In a statement, the BPI told us:

    “Clause 17 is an essential component of the Bill since it provides a mechanism to deal with the increasing threat of illegal downloading from non-P2P sources and other future threats.

    In light of the ongoing debate on the current draft of Clause 17, we thought it prudent to propose possible alternative approaches, including a straw-man s.97B.
    However, Clause 17 remains our favoured approach to address forms of online infringement ,b.other than P2P filesharing. ”

    “The amendment game
    With the Lords due to debate the Digital Britain Bill today, the ISP trade association ISPA and major labels are both lobbying hard, tabling dozens of amendments.

    One by Conservative peer Lord Lucas would put search engines above the law, making them immune to any copyright claims at all.

    According to Paid Content, Google would be free to store and distribute anything it wanted, selectively abolishing copyright.

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