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Should Websites Charge A Fee To Process Copyright Takedowns?

Every day copyright holders send out countless notices which order BitTorrent indexes, cyberlockers, forums, blogs and search engines to remove links to allegedly infringing content. The process is time consuming for everyone involved. So, since time is money, shouldn’t those being burdened by the actions of third parties be compensated for their work? One anti-piracy company says charging for takedowns amounts to extortion.

The publication last week of Google’s Transparency Report gave us a clearer idea of the pressures the search engine is under from copyright holders. The report revealed that in a single month Google was asked to take down an astonishing 1.2m links to allegedly infringing material.

As a US company Google must comply with the requests in order to maintain its DMCA Safe Harbor protection. The reports stops short of revealing the associated financial costs but considering the scale of the operation it’s safe to say that they’re significant. So who should pay?

This interesting issue has been raised not by Google, but anti-piracy company Takedown Piracy whose recent dispute with a torrent site spilled over into the public domain a few hours ago.

Piracy site uses extortion with copyright holders” says the blog headline penned by Takedown Piracy owner Nate Glass.

“Recently, we sent a fully DMCA compliant notice to a large torrent site. While our notice was accurate and fully DMCA compliant, we did forget one thing. The lump of money the piracy site demanded,” Glass writes.

TorrentFreak recognized the torrent site in questions as H33T.com. It’s worth noting that H33T is outside US jurisdiction so is not required to comply with the terms of the DMCA. They will take down links but they have a set of terms and conditions.

The fee is $50 USD charged per takedown item in each request regardless of number of requests to cover reasonable administration expenses accounted to work we undertake on our network at your behest. If the list of items for takedown ever exceeds 500 total items in a single request then we will negotiate a bulk rate payment schedule

Glass is not amused by the business proposal.

“So not only does this site profit by selling ads using other people’s hard work, but in the event you want your property removed from their website, it’s going to cost you $50 for EACH instance of copyright infringement,” he continued.

Admittedly it is fairly out of the ordinary for a torrent site to attach a fee to a copyright takedown, but the admin of H33T told TorrentFreak that it’s simply a question of being practical.

“Nothing in this world is for free and where the network service provider, in this case h33t, is a third party to the rights holder’s complaint against the uploader, then it is only proper that costs are properly allocated to the party who is incurring the costs,” he explained.

Thanks to the DMCA, US service providers have had no choice but to carry these costs themselves, but what about sites not subject to US law?

H33T says it is “established practice” for rights holders and network service providers to negotiate the burden of costs. While there are indeed prominent examples of this around the world, what they all have in common is disputes over who will pay for what.

The fledgling “3 strikes”-style regime introduced in New Zealand recently was plagued with argument over money and in the end it was decided that the ISPs – the “network service providers” referenced by H33T – should be paid $25 NZD by rightsholders when they send a warning to a customer.

The UK’s now-delayed Digital Economy Act is also the center of a costs argument between ISPs and rightsholders, and negotiations in Australia aren’t going well either.

“The rightsholders want all the benefits of remedial action, but want the ISPs to foot the bill. ISPs don’t want to pay to protect the rights of third parties,” iiNet chief regulatory officer Steve Dalby said recently.

And of course this is where it all gets quite interesting. Takedown Piracy are a piracy takedown service – they get paid by rightholders to have links to infringing content taken down. Takedown Piracy’s entire business model exists on the removal of links, a service that H33T is demanding a fee for – just like Takedown Piracy does.

“How hypocritical can Takedown Piracy be?” questions H33T.

“Their business model is to charge the rights holder a fee to make takedowns happen. But when the third party, in this case h33t, responsibly engages with them to expedite the takedown they refuse to apply the funds the rights holders have given them for the purpose. It’s outrageous and clearly a major wrong against their clients.”

Aldor Nini from anti-piracy company Acromax GmbH says that in some instances sites should be able to charge for takedowns, but with conditions.

“Sites may charge if their business is not based on copyright infringements and they are not already earning money from the illegitimate usage of infringing material,” Nini told TorrentFreak.

Interestingly, H33T informs us that the site responds to all takedown requests using the emails it is supplied with, but in the 6 months since the $50 takedown policy was put in place, only in two instances has he received a response.

But is $50 per takedown good value for money? It is if the one-download-equals-one-lost-sale mantra is applied, say H33T.

“What we see here is that the MAFIAA claim that a download equals a lost sale is absolute bull crap. If it were true, using MAFIAA math, $50 for a takedown is an extremely cheap and effective price to pay for 10s of thousands of lost sales.

“The MAFIAA narrative is deceit, lies and more lies.”

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  • Master

    This is innovation right here. Something that the MAFIAA couldn’t comprehend.

    • Gregg

      Nate Glass is a freaking moron! Checkout his Linked-In profile and YouTube video below:

      Linked-In (just a High School Diploma, no college – douche bag):
      http://www.linkedin.com/pub/nate-glass/18/a54/780

      Nate’s Hilarious

      Views on SOPA & PIPA:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r3QqZQkjBo

      • DisquSucks

        OH SHIT! I JUST BROKE TORRENTFREAK!

        • DisquSucks

          Disqus come
          Disqus go

          Disqus flag
          Disqus no show

        • Guest

          Hey, did the old Disqus just come back? Oh praise the lawd!

          Man. I didn’t think anything could make me feel love for the old Disqus, but the new Disqus sure as fuck did the trick.

          Who ever went crazy flagging legitimate comments for abuse, that was a reprehensible dick move. But if it also helped to get rid of new Disqus, I guess, uh… You’re an asshole but also thank you?

        • DisquSucks
        • Nate4Pres

          Nate Glass for PRESIDENT! 

          YES WE CAN 
          (Defeat Infringement)

        • LateciaBowman

           not sure about discus going down, but for some reason now u have to enable collective-media  dot com for it to work. I noticed this and waited, to see if it would just be discuss allowed, but no collective – media has to be enabled. hope that helps

        • Anonymous

          Its pretty much interesting that anyone can make 4000$ within a week, have you ever seen this web address====>> ?????? http://getitmust.blogspot.com/m

        • Anonymous

          my roomate’s ex-wife got paid $15158 the prior week. she is making an income on th e laptop and got a $584800 home. All she did was get fortunate and set to work the advice shown on this web site ===>> ?????? http://workoverenternet.blogspot.com

        • Anonymous

          my roomate’s mom got paid $ 14828 past week. she is making an incom e on the internet and bought a $481700 house. All she did was get fortunate and put into use the guide exposed on this web site ===>> ?????? http://enternet-work.blogspot.com

        • http://lazycash1.com/ Anonymous

          my buddy’s sister-in-law made $18108 a month ago. she worrks on the internet and bought a $525400 condo. All she did was get blessed and put into action the instructions given on this website 

          ?????? (Click At My Name For Link)

        • Anonymous

          my best friend’s sister-in-law got paid $14696 the prior month. she is making money on the inte<!–truth is almight–>rnet and bought a $372500 home. All she did was get blessed and work up the steps uncovered on this link 

          ?????? (Click At My Name For Link)

      • Master

        The guy is dumb.

      • Me not Nate

        it says the comment is flagged as abusive … hehe, i recon Nate has been visiting Torrentfreak recently. :P

        • Anons Know Things

          The background image for his blog……. PIRATED.

          The fukin freetard …lol

          Uploaded: Nov-27-08
          License:     Copyright – Personal Usage Only
          http://www.kaneva.com/asset/assetDetails.aspx?assetId=5208943&communityId=0
          It might go further back. Will keep going.
          It’s fun.

          Your principles are now……
          ( i don’t know who made the Avengers movie , guess I can upload it to YouTube then )

          Nate seems like a decent bloke btw. ( full of shit anti-pirate but at least he communicates)
          Shame that he moderates every comment , but he responds and allows different opinions.

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          @ab88e4f6bffa078c849790a2351ac8dc:disqus I was trying to find the original but couldn’t. Nicely done that man!

        • EvilKaneva

          Cuz I just bought that guy a premium AND one of his prints.

          I doubt this guy on Kaneva is the creator as well unless he also created the Dallas Mavs and Apple logos.

          Down the rabbit hole we go!

        • Anons Know Things
        • Anons Know Things

          Check out the thread.He donated to a guy who we said made the original.Then ……check it out…funny readhttp://takedownpiracy.com/2012/05/piracy-site-uses-extortion-with-copyright-holders/#comment-971

        • CatPeople

          Give Nate a break … 

          His 18yo cat was diagnosed with kidney disease (which, btw, is becoming more common in older cats). 

          Now THAT’s Fucked UP! 

          So DON’T MESS WITH NATE!  (or his cat)

        • Anons Know Things

          http://takedownpiracy.com/2012/05/piracy-site-uses-extortion-with-copyright-holders/#comment-971

          ooops….link not working

          @Topperfalkon:disqus  seen you there.

        • Anons Know Things

          @3a39a8be23d8e15e13fa40a2d047b3c4:disqus I agree.

          Completely disagree with Nate’s opinions on file sharing and copyright but he is a fun guy to debate with.

          Guess the whole of TorrentFreak that is in that post sorta agrees.

          Be honest , even you “trolling insults” people are enjoying his responses to you.

        • WoodPost

          Nate Changed his WOOD! 
          (Cat scratched old wood I guess)

        • woodshifter is Nate

          Too late……already sent a DMCA request to google…lulz

          Taste of Nate’s own medicine.

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

           @78f9a6d4f438e50c1bf56c5aca020749:disqus Well, that was thoroughly amusing. I am very pleased at having sowed that seed. He’s not that much of a bastard really, just a shrewd businessman.

          I can respect that in a way, a very loose way. At least he’s not making a habit of doing the things ACS:Law were renowned for.

      • Guest

        I agree, but you don’t need a college degree to be intelligent or business savvy; on the contrary, as the MAFIAA and their henchmen regularly prove. Judge him on his bullshit, not on his education.

      • IHateNate

        I’m sorry but I have to post this here … I guess it’s relevent to your comment infact.

        http://takedownpiracy.com/2012/05/piracy-site-uses-extortion-with-copyright-holders/

        He had loads of comments beforehand which ‘owned’/'pwned’ him calling him a hypocrite etc etc … he has deleted them all but kept the ones which are dumb for him to make a witty/troll come back. Seriously, this dude not only is a hypocrite but also censors and tries using propaganda towards people.

        Furthurmore, eariler Torrentfreaks most liked comments were all reported as abusive. I can strongly say that we all know who it was. He is a total mong!

      • Koecrew

        @disqus_iTLx4AiSYN:disqus Education != Intelligence.

      • Anonymous

        my roomate’s mom got paid $ 14828 past week. she is making an incom e on the internet and bought a $481700 house. All she did was get fortunate and put into use the guide exposed on this web site ===>> ?????? http://enternet-Job.blogspot.com

    • Master

      Thank you. Now I know that I need to make a site criticizing Nate.

    • Mafiaa Sucks

      ‘ Interestingly, H33T informs us that the site responds to all takedown
      requests using the emails it is supplied with, but in the 6 months since
      the $50 takedown policy was put in place, only in two instances has he
      received a response.

      This tells everyone that its a troll process involved, because if mafiaa was so ready to have stuff taken down, they would be paying these ppl, but since h33t started charging, mafiaa doesnt want to pay, so this says basically that its a paper mill or electronic mill that they run, and any cost as far as takedowns go, they dont want to pay, only generate revenue. Remember how some of their movies can make tens or hundreds of millions at the box office, not counting home distribution, edistribution, merchandise, and more, but they still claim they lost money, even when its the biggest move revenue ever (star wars, advengers, and many more), their revenue goes up, they just say “we lost money’ government is on their side as they pay them, and they sop up the slop and go with their lies..

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/RCVFRLDYHCDMF3KDJRCOQMNC6Y Diane

      as Cheryl implied I’m amazed that a person able to get paid $9425 in 4 weeks on the internet. have you seen this website  (Click on menu Home more information)   http://goo.gl/0Qg7W   

  • Anyone

    at the very least there should be hefty fines for false takedowns
    $50 for a takedown request is quite reasonable, considering the cost for the company.

    • http://profiles.google.com/orfetheo Orfeas Theofanis

      I believe everything that can be copied with 1 click should be given free and not restricted like hollywood’s methods.

      But you can’t call 50$ for a takedown reasonable, I mean you look at the file, check google for validity, and in 2 minutes you know if it’s infringing or not.
      2 minutes aren’t worth 50$.

      On the other hand, COPYING IS NOT STEALING!!!

      • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

        Sorry, but to check validity they have to:
        1. Check the disputed file relates to the work the complainant is talking about.
        2. Find out who the rights holder is for that work
        3. Contact the rights holder and verify that the agency is authorised to operate on their behalf
        4. Contact the user responsible for the disputed file
        5. Give them opportunity to register a counter-complaint.
        6. Process the counter-complaint.
        7. Deal with the ensuing argument.

        $50 is kinda cheap for all that.

      • Anyone

        since we know from previous court case that an illegal download is worth a sixfigure number I’d argue $50 is a bargain

        of course it could be that the MAFIAA is full of shit and just wants others to pay the costs of their failure

  • Master

    What happened to the millions of dollars in losses? $50 is a steal.

  • anonymous

    i think they’re on to something here.

  • Yes

    Yes! Charge for copyright take-down requests!

  • Greed x Greed

    How about that…

    The counter for capitalistic greed is more capitalistic greed!

    Hope to see the day when everyone is being charched for every little thing, then people revolt at the same time.

    • Rolando Tillit

      Banks do it, they charge you for their fuckups, we as a people should really just do the same, especially to abstract entities. But of course abstract entities like government, etc. are more protected than actual flesh and blood people, because you know…we’re all screwed up in the head.

  • Nick

    ohhh so you mad hollywood now? This is your medicine.

  • http://twitter.com/CheapassFiction AeliusBlythe

    Wait. The anti-piracy brigade now objects to extortion? When did that happen?

    But this is good. It’s good that the discussion of cost is starting to surface. People understand money. Business understands money. Government understands money. Now, privacy rights and civil liberties… that’s another story. But money is concrete. Calculable.

    This is a discussion that needs to happen.

    • Rolando Tillit

      It’s not extortion when they do it, it’s fighting for the rights of copyright holders. When other people do it it’s extortion.

      • Anyone

        one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter

        • DutchGuest

          That’s correct.
          And Peace is NOT an option.

        • DutchGuest

          That’s correct.
          And Peace is NOT an option.

    • Anonymous

      The anti-piracy ALWAYS objects to extortion when it happens to them. Normally, though, they see such extortion coming from other major copyright holders, not from “exterior” sources.

      EMI vs Sony, for instance.

  • Exverxes

    Interesting idea, but it will not hold. On the other hand, they could charge for every unjustified takedown request. They would have to pay not for removing content, but for returning it to previous state. This way, MAFIIA would not be able to say, that providers are profiting from piracy, and they would still get lot of money. As a side result, companies making mass takedown request would have to think what they are requestingbecause every wrong request would cost them money.

  • Krosis

    >
    Something tells me we won’t see TechDirt, ArsTechnica or TorrentFreak doing an article about this, since it conflicts with the narrative they like to push.

    =]

    • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

      Wait, what? This IS on TorrentFreak…

      • Krosis

        That’s why I put the smiley face there. I thought I didn’t have to explain it to the highly intelligent TF readers but apparently I was mistaken.

        =[

        • Krosis

          (It’s a quote from the source website)

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          Now it makes more sense.

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          Stupid thing…

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          oh ffs.

        • Krosis

          hahahaahha okay i also made mistakes let this just get buried.. >.>

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          Stupid thing…

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          Stupid thing…

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          Stupid thing…

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          Stupid thing…

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          Stupid thing…

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          Now it makes more sense.

        • Guest

          You didn’t put your “quote” in quotation marks, and you didn’t say it was from the source website. If you’re going to communicate poorly, don’t get catty when you’re misunderstood.

        • Loli

          next time can u please say (sarcasm) so we all know, thx loli

  • Anonymous

    Of course, they should.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t understand. Surely $50 dollars is nothing compared to the $50 gazillion lost every time a torrent is downloaded? Why not just pay it?

    • Anonymous

      How many websites would rights holders need to pay $50 to fully remove all the instances of infringement, a few hundred thousand maybe ?

      And what about multiple titles ? $50 for each multiplied by how many sharing sites ?.

      And what about when someone (sometimes the very site admins that run a sharing site) re-uploads the materials ?

      Criminals at work….well done HEET.

      • Anyone

        if the criminals would innovate instead of bitching about their imaginary losses we would have no problem.

      • Guest

        Damn H33t, making it difficult for the MAFIAA criminals to work.

        And $50 a takedown should be nothing when you consider it would prevent the copyright industry from losing *billions* of dollars, according to the MAFIAA’s math. Are you saying the MAFIAA’s math is wrong?

        • Anonymous

          How would paying $50 to one site to remove one link to infringing content make any difference to a creators piracy removals when there are 1000′s of sites online and 1000′s of links on each of those sites.

          Websites dedicated to piracy are operated by criminals, always have been always will be and H33T are just another example of a talentless criminal operation.

          And $50 lol….it takes 10 seconds to remove something from a server.

        • Anyone

          it takes more than 10 seconds to actually check the claim

          of course it would be easier for the MAFIAA if everyone just rolled over and did what they tell, but thank FSM that’s not how the world works.

          h33t is offering a service for a fee and the MAFIAA is free to take that service or not

      • Fredrika

        > “Websites dedicated to piracy are operated by criminals, always have been always will be and H33T are just another example of a talentless criminal operation.”

        You seem confused or ignorant as usual. H33t is a fully legal operation that violates no law, and commits no piracy.

      • Anonymous

        So the only alternative you propose is…? Ah, yes, allowing anyone who holds some sort of copyright to send out blithering nonsense which causes millions of takedowns of which 33% are invalid?

        Nice try. I realize that any paradigm where actual freedom of speech exists you will have a major problem since such a model actually insists every takedown request issued adhere closely to the burden of proof that said takedown is valid.

        And of course, you feel that everyone else should work to protect your property. for free. I have a big problem with you referring to anyone else as a “parasite”, leech.

        • Anonymous

           

          “So the only alternative you propose is…? Ah, yes, allowing anyone who holds some sort of copyright to send out blithering nonsense which causes millions of takedowns of which 33% are invalid?”

          Id propose something completely different but that’s not important. Although woefully ineffective for today’s internet environment, the DMCA is what is available.

          “Nice try. I realize that any paradigm where actual freedom of speech exists you will have a major problem since such a model actually insists every takedown request issued adhere closely to the burden of proof that said takedown is valid.”

          There is no burden of proof, ISP’s don’t have to check that a DMCA sender “owns” the materials. If a dispute occurs over a DMCA, the uploader or hosting website of said materials can use the Counter DMCA if the materials are infact “owned” by them or classify as fair use.

          “And of course, you feel that everyone else should work to protect your property. for free. I have a big problem with you referring to anyone else as a “parasite”, leech.”

          Free lol…….No one works harder to protect their materials than the copyright holder (that’s after they spent all the time and financial risk creating it in the first place).

          And for websites that receive DMCAs, removal of material that infringes copyright when notified goes hand in hand with the massive benefit they receive (allowing them to legally operate in the first place) safe harbor.

          Websites like H33T somehow think that they should benefit from immunity to whats on their website in addition to fleecing copyright holders with an arbitrary “we’ve pulled this DMCA removal figure out of our ass” to dissuade people from writing to them and allowing H33T to continue to benefit from copyrighted materials on their website. Only in priateland does that seem logical.

          Not surprisingly, they are hosted in NL lol. A country with almost zero entertainment industry but, they’re quite good at hosting sites dedicated to piracy.

          “Here’s a clue – you want to send a takedown notice without providing due proof that you are in fact the copyright owner in the case in question, then you should most definitely be the one to pay if someone else has to perform that task for you.”

          Now I know you have know idea what you’re talking about when it comes to the DMCA.

          For one a DMCA includes all the proof an ISP or website needs. Owner, location and statements. Thats it, that’s all they need.

          All the website has to do is remove the materials which can be performed manually or by an automated program to continue to benefit from safe harbor. How easy is that ?? pretty damn easy.

          Here’s a clue, read up on a few things before commenting on an area which you clearly know very little about.

  • Pianogamer

    A company that isn’t obliged to follow DMCAs offers the service still, for having their costs covered. And someone’s COMPLAINING?!

  • Andrew Lee

    “One anti-piracy company says charging for takedowns amounts to extortion.” I’m pretty sure threatening users with absurd fines to extract a few thousand dollars is almost extortion. The users have absolutely no reason not to pay for a few reasons. “Time,money, and risk”

    It’s extremely costly to hire a lawyer to fight them in court for god knows how long. It’s safe to say it’s cheaper to just give and pay rather than risk being tied up to owing many times more for the rest of your life.

    If you’re innocent then you are really getting fucked hard. Even if you do win you’re out a good chunk for the lawyer and most importantly “TIME which you cannot get back..”

    Now look at the websites..
    They receive a takedown notices in massive quantities with many of them being fraudulent. What the risk of sending a fraudulent DCMA notice to a website? “ABSOLUTELY NOTHING” It’s of course ILLEGAL to do but nobody really cares about that. What’s the point of the fucking law if our moronic government does not enforce it. It would be like saying it’s illegal to kill people but then do nothing about it EVER.

    • Glib

      Unless you live in a country where the loser pays. I had a neighbour take me to court over a rather frivolous item; hired a lawyer, he did everything, won my case, neighbour was out somewhere in the area of $20k (his fees, my fees, some emotional damage stuff). I walked away, doing nothing except showing up for one court date that I was required to, with about $5k.

    • Anonymous

       ”t’s extremely costly to hire a lawyer to fight them in court for god
      knows how long. It’s safe to say it’s cheaper to just give and pay
      rather than risk being tied up to owing many times more for the rest of
      your life.”

      It’s actually cheaper to not illegally upload/download copywritten materials.

      • Guest

        I don’t, but I still end up getting things I didn’t pay for (DRM, blank media tax) and none of the things I pay for (usability, device compatibility, backup capability).

        It’s far cheaper to flip the table and tell rightsholders the deal is off.

      • Fredrika

        > “It’s actually cheaper to not illegally upload/download copywritten materials.”

        Which this article isn’t about, and that’s not what H33t does, so that’s just another meaningless and dishonest straw-man argument from you.

        • Anonymous

          I wasn’t referring to the article, I was commenting on part of another users post.

          So another ridiculous post from you Freddie.

        • Fredrika

          > “I wasn’t referring to the article, I was commenting on part of another users post.”

          Sorry, missed that, but as always whatever you write it is guaranteed to be incorrect, irrelevant or worse, which it still was when we look at what you actually responded to.

          Try to read the initial comment again, would you? It was not about people filesharing illegally, which was what you argued was more expensive than the alternative. It was about the financial risk for people who are being extorted. And that it for all those extortion victims is cheaper to give in to extortion, than to costly fight accusations in court, which is a fact that Andrew Lee compared to the fact that there is no cost or risk for scammers sending fraudulent takedown notices to sites, scammers that represent the same extortionist mentioned in the comparison.

          Which is a clearly unbalanced and unfair situation regarding the illegitimate copyright monopoly, when extortionists can perform scams without risk, while extortion victims takes a huge risk standing up against extortion.

          So on one hand we have a fully legal website as H33t, which voluntarily without any legal obligation whatsoever offers a legal service of taking down legal torrents against payments, and this legal service is called extortion by a company that represents other parties that has made a business model out of textbook extortion, and for some reason you instead of commenting on what was actually said and compared, you immediately side against the extortion victims and argue that actual extortion victims have themselves to blame and deserve to be extorted because they are suspected of copyright infringements, and that some victims should avoid using their own property that they own according to the free market rules, to try to avoid being extorted by extortionists that at the same time performs scams without any risk.

          In other words extortion is ok if you believe the extortion victim deserves to be extorted.

          Without passing any judgement on your standpoint and belief that people who are suspected of copyright infringement deserve to be extorted to protect the profit of weak failed entrepreneurs that can’t handle themselves on the free market, and that it’s the extortion victim that’s at fault and should change their behaviours, and not the extortionist or scammers, it’s crystal clear that your initial reply and claim was indeed irrelevant.

        • Anonymous

          “Sorry, missed that, but as always whatever you write it is guaranteed to be incorrect, irrelevant or worse, which it still was when we look at what you actually responded to.

          Try to read the initial comment again, would you? It was not about people filesharing illegally, which was what you argued was more expensive than the alternative. It was about the financial risk for people who are being extorted.”

          Really lol, you make a mistake and completely misunderstood who I was writing to and the simple point I made to their post, yet have the gall to say that whatever I type is incorrect.

          And my comment was merely to point out that the risk can be completely mitigated by not illegally file-sharing in the first place……i’ll say that again Completely Mitigated.

          File sharing illegally and risk of being fined (whether you believe the fines are too high is irrelevant) in fact go hand in hand.

          “And that it for all those extortion victims is cheaper to give in to extortion, than to costly fight accusations in court, which is a fact that Andrew Lee compared to the fact that there is no cost or risk for scammers sending fraudulent takedown notices to sites, scammers that represent the same extortionist mentioned in the comparison.”

          A person who can’t prove that they weren’t illegally file-sharing would find it cheaper to pay the fine. That’s not extortion, that’s them being caught with their hand in the cookie jar and no reason as to why.

          There actually is a risk to sending fraudulent takedown notices.

          “Which is a clearly unbalanced and unfair situation regarding the illegitimate copyright monopoly, when extortionists can perform scams without risk”

          Untrue there are risks. Did you forget them, or do you not know them?

          “while extortion victims takes a huge risk standing up against extortion.”

          No, they take a risk uploading and downloading copy-written materials, they already know that if they get caught that there could be repercussions.

          “So on one hand we have a fully legal website as H33t”

          You don’t know that.

          “which voluntarily without any legal obligation whatsoever offers a legal service of taking down legal torrents against payments, and this legal service is called extortion by a company that represents other parties that has made a business model out of textbook extortion”

          If H33T have no obligations to do anything at all, why would they do something with a arbitrary price attached ?

          Couldn’t be to extort money could it ? Or to dissuade legitimate rights-holders from contacting them so they can continue to potentially profit from their website?
          Nah, couldn’t be that LOL, you’re so funny Freddie.

          “and for some reason you instead of commenting on what was actually said and compared, you immediately side against the extortion victims and argue that actual extortion victims have themselves to blame”

          I did comment on what was said and just because you put “extortion” in front of the word “victim”, rarely if ever does that makes it so. the OP forgot to mention one other potential reason why people don’t fight their accusers in court, he forgot “guilty”.

          “Without passing any judgement on your standpoint and belief that people who are suspected of copyright infringement deserve to be extorted to protect the profit of weak failed entrepreneurs that can’t handle themselves on the free market, and that it’s the extortion victim that’s at fault and should change their behaviours, and not the extortionist or scammers, it’s crystal clear that your initial reply and claim was indeed irrelevant.”

          Actually, its crystal clear that you’ve taken some guesses in your response and not very good ones.

          Some are (in your own words) incorrect, irrelevant or worse. I’m considering not responding to you at all in the future Freddie.

        • Fredrika

          > “And my comment was merely to point out that the risk can be completely mitigated by not illegally file-sharing in the first place……i’ll say that again Completely Mitigated.”

          How ignorant are you? It’s been estimated that over 30% of all extortion letters are sent to the completely wrong household/Internet subscriber in the first place, have you not heard of some of the more bizarre stories about letters being sent to printers, dead people and people without a computer being extorted?

          > “File sharing illegally and risk of being fined (whether you believe the fines are too high is irrelevant) in fact go hand in hand.”

          This discussion is not about being fined? It’s about the risks for extortion victims compared to the risk for scammers.

          > “A person who can’t prove that they weren’t illegally file-sharing..”

          In a civil society no one should have to prove their innocence, that is a human right, human rights though which you many times have declared are something than can never be allowed to stand in the way of protecting the profit of weak failed entrepreneurs that can’t handle themselves on the free market.

          > “..would find it cheaper to pay the fine. That’s not extortion..”

          How ignorant are you? Extortion is extortion regardless of what the extortion victim has done. The extortion letters does not say only pay if you’re guilty, and they never have said that. They say pay up, or we’ll take you to court. That is text book extortion.

          > “..that’s them being caught with their hand in the cookie jar and no reason as to why.”

          Whether or not a person has done what the extortionist claims is irrelevant to what constitutes extortion.

          > “There actually is a risk to sending fraudulent takedown notices.”

          There is not. Definitely not when you send them to overseas companies as in this case.

          > “Untrue there are risks. Did you forget them, or do you not know them?”

          Did you not know that there are no risks in sending scam letters to overseas operations. Did you not know that?

          > “No..”

          So, extortion victims take no risk if they stand up against extortion? They do not risk losing in court despite being innocent? They do not risk having to loose thousands of dollars in the process regardless of the outcome? How ignorant are you?

          > “..they take a risk uploading and downloading copy-written materials..”

          Which this discussion is not about, it’s about extortion victims.

          > “You don’t know that.”

          I most certainly do, because that’s how the judicial system works. Until something in a precedent sentence has been established to be in general illegal, the judicial system considers it legal, which is the clear case with H33t.

          > “If H33T have no obligations to do anything at all, why would they do something with a arbitrary price attached ?”

          Well if ignorant idiots are gonna send them meaningless scam letters they might as well try to make money from this annoyance.

          > “Couldn’t be to extort money could it ?”

          Again your ignorane shines through. Freely offering a buyer to freely buy something if they wish is not extortion.

          > “Or to dissuade legitimate rights-holders..”

          Again with the ignorance. They are not the rights holders to the non-copyrighted torrentfiles that are owned by a completely diffrent party.

          > “..from contacting them so they can continue to potentially profit from their website?”

          Obviously no successful entrepreneur has any interest in without payment wasting valuable time handling invalid claims from confused parties that lack legal basis. Does this really have to be explained to you?

          > “I did comment on what was said..”

          No you didn’t, you did not comment on the comparison of risks for actual extortion victims than had already been extorted, and scammers.

          > “..and just because you put “extortion” in front of the word “victim”, rarely if ever does that makes it so.”

          Someone who is being extorted is by definition an extortion victim.

          > “..the OP forgot to mention one other potential reason why people don’t fight their accusers in court, he forgot “guilty”.”

          Whether or not someone is guilty is completely irrelevant to the fact that there is always a huge risk going to court in civil matters. The discussion was about comparison of risk, not reason.

          > “Actually, its crystal clear that you’ve taken some guesses in your response and not very good ones.”

          Again an empty meaningless accusation.

  • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

    Well, I’ve been thinking they should charge for takedowns for a while. And if you use the rate h33t have set it’s very reasonable in comparison to the total sales.

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/RKKPBJMHI22ZE7BO2BHOFA3TMM Volker

    Would be nice to see the MAFIAA lose real money, instead of phony
    imagined losses

  • 7seven85

    The problem is by doing that, the MAFIAA will still say that law like SOPA or PIPA are needed…

    • Loli

       but in that case, they can take down the whole site for 4 infrengements (see megaupload case they claim 4 infrengements, and caused millions of real damages to even govt people, which I am against govt, as they are all corrupt anyways, or lets say a large majority

  • Anonymous

    Reminds me of Ebenezer Scrooge.

  • Guest

    Charging for copyright takedown would indeed be extortion. Then everyone will build copyright infringing sites and earn money by taking down their own illegal uploads. Many people will even invent scripts to auto upload and auto takedown links.

    • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

      You’d have to have safeguards, like the DMCA safe harbour. They could lose protection if they then willfully allowed someone to reupload a link that was taken down.

      • Meho

         so then in this case like the isohunt filter that removed stuff that is in public domain, collateral damage is ok? Heck I tried to download stuff from 1932 on there and it says ” content blocked as requested by us court order”. search tf for the article

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

           If the courts are being retarded there’s not really a lot you can do about that other than kick up a fuss about it.

          It’s the same reason why the copyright trolling culture exists, because no-one really trusts the courts to act in their interest.

          Sorry.

    • Arb1

      Speaking of extortion, reminds me of MAFIAA sending letters to people in a pay up or else scheme.

    • Fredrika

      > “Charging for copyright takedown would indeed be extortion.”

      Charging a buyer for performing a voluntary service for them is in no way extortion. The buyer is in no way required to buy their service, and the seller is in no way required to offer the service, regardless of eventual payment charged for it.

      > “Then everyone will build copyright infringing sites..”

      This story is not about copyright infringing sites? Offering torrentfiles that index copyrighted works does in no way equal copyright infringement under the relevant jurisdiction.

    • zan

      … and earn money by taking down their own illegal uploads. Many people will even invent scripts to auto upload and auto takedown links.

      huh? i’ll charge myself a fee then pay fee to myself?

      what a load of illogical nonsense.

    • Guest

      “Charging for copyright takedown would indeed be extortion”

      Nope. The dictionary says that extortion is to obtain something, especially money, through either the act of force or threats.

      H33t isn’t making threats or physically attacking people. Putting a $50 pricetag on takedown requests isn’t extortion. Now, sending letters to people saying they’d better pay ~$500 or else you’ll take them to court and sue them for ~$150,000 because they allegedly fileshared, on the otherhand…

  • http://twitter.com/icanhazsake Ninja

    Makes total sense. Just think about Google transparency site released recently. I remember seeing numbers like 800k, 1M. Now if you consider Google gives these requests at least some depth of scrutiny they must need like 5 minutes to read the takedown and proceed with that minimum verification process then we are talking about 5 million minutes wasted, more than 83k work hours. That’s a person working over TWO YEARS 24h a day, 7 days a week. So these 1M takedown notices cost Google something near 1,5 million dollars considering a $20/hour wage. Along with other material/processing not included. So I think a $10 fee would be the minimum rights-holders should pay. If you consider they claim one person sharing one music/movie costs them millions then they will be preventing further sharing so the investment is very profitable. Love when their twisted logic bites back.

    • Glib

      More like 9.5 years (8750 work hours in a non-leap year), but your point is absolutely valid. You exclude the cost of that person’s health benefits and such as well, though it really is a drop in the bucket for someone like Google.

  • http://twitter.com/CurryJanis CurryJanis

    just as Melvin replied I didnt know that a student able to get paid $4927 in one month on the computer. have you read this site (Click on menu Home more information) http://goo.gl/21VQl

  • chuck

    And here we go, fight with moneys,hope it sticks.

  • anonymous

    out of curiosity, how much is Takedown Piracy paid for each ‘take down’ that it requests on behalf of the supposed owner (proof of ownership supplied?) of the file in question? if nothing, who pays the workforce?
    why is it that when a site profits by selling ads, it’s condemned? dont almost all sites run ads? doesn’t it have a right to earn money, like everyone else? just because a site runs ads, doesn’t mean it contains nothing but illegal files.

  • Arb1

    Extortion is MAFIAA’s game plan and its being used against them now. But maybe it will cut down on the BS DMCA notices if they are ones that have to put some $ down on it to get it removed. Outta all the request google see’s it reviews them all so yea it cost them more then most and even they find % of the request that are crap ones.

  • http://www.twitter.com/echoman74 echoman

    It cist money to run a site the should have every right to make money. Lost sale my ass every time the mafiaa speak the look more stupid and out of touch.

  • Anonymous

    That actualyl makes sense when you think about it dude.
    Anon-Apps.tk

  • Randy_Lahey

    Sure. If the copyright company is making money on behalf of their clients and takedowns require work on the owner of the server, I see no reason why they shouldn’t charge for it. Any company can file a mass-takedown that includes thousands of links (Usually created by automated process) and this would serve as a valid deterrent for companies to pick and choose carefully.

  • Long Live h33t

    Takedown Piracy owner Nate Glass seems like a 2nd Rate Ass to me. What a Maroon.
    IMHO

    • DutchGuest

      I guess Nate Glass is here reporting any and all comments about him as ‘abuse’, as this is like the third comment about him that’s been flagged.
      Can the mods maybe check this and take care of the dirty bastard ?

  • Frustrated

    Piracy is rampant and can often seem like you’re playing Whack-A-Mole. However, in this case you’re not just hitting the moles with rubber mallets but we’re dropping napalm bombs on the whole field.

    Part of the success of piracy sites can be attributed to them offering a superior surfing experience for users. As long as copyright owners do nothing, that experience will continue to be superior.

    We interfere with that experience by introducing frustration to the mix. Whether it’s the site owner frustrated at the amount of time he/she spends on removing content or the frustration the downloader feels at not being able to find free content, frustration is a very valuable tool to use in combating piracy, and we excel at that.

    • anon

      :) Frustration is what the industry must feel every time they come on here and see how they have been circumvented, Remember a lot of these sites are created and run for the fun of it , not the money , although i am sure that helps. Only in America is the dcma in force and more and more sites are being created outside of Americas , actually America is losing a ton of jobs because of the action of one small industry.

  • RIAAtarded

    yeah I honestly like this approach in a lot of cases $50 is less then the retail price of the item. It would also force them to do more due diligence when making requests for take downs. I think the fee coupled with the appropriate proof of ownership should be a requirement in any take down request.

  • o0mg

    hell yeah charge every single one of them …. maybe they will stop sending take down on things they don’t even own the rights on …..

  • It’s a fit-up

    Should Websites Charge A Fee To Process Copyright Takedowns?”

    Yes, but they should charge whatever it would cost to remove their content. plus any potential damages for lost sales.

    • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

      Whose lost sales? The rightsholders? There are no ‘lost sales’, that’s mere propaganda spouted by the media lobbyists with no evidence to back it up.

  • Anonymous

    One anti-piracy company says charging for takedowns amounts to extortion.

    Oh really? *cough* ACS Law *cough* other law firms *cough* This cough is killing me *cough*

  • http://twitter.com/FreePSDFinder FreePSDFinder

    I love piracy but charging for takedowns… thats just real low.

    • Guest

      Really? How is it low?

      You’re aware it’s the MAFIAA that h33t is charging?

      I’d argue “low” is the last thing it is. 

    • Gfire

      Agreed.

  • Anonymous

    Absolutely NOT!

    However, if the claim turns out to be bogus, *then* they should be charged for the time to take down and restore. That would be, what, $100?

    • Anyone

      I’d say $10000 should stop them from mass sending takedowns or trying to takedowns the files from other companies.

  • Rboy

    Extortion my ass. They can fuck off! It is about time someone requested payment for doing work for them. If it is not worth the payment then they should just shut the hell up.

    • Anonymous

      Copyright holders through all of history have been charged to police their own creations. Now they want everyone else to do that job for them as they sit back and sup beer.

      Ummm… no.

  • Anonymous

    The copyright trolls abuse the system, and the MAFIAA encourages them to do so, it’s actually fitting that they should have to pay a fine to demand that companies give in to their demands.

    The RIAA and MPAA are both so keep on robbing people and still resist any form of innovation, even on their own part. They should pay fines for pushing their own ridiculousness. They don’t mind buying off judges and pushing their own “ethics” on the public, but they do mind paying people after making them work more?

  • Anonymous

    It is a valid argument when DMCA take-down requests involve work and that work means a job and jobs do need paying for. Working for free is not a normal commercial aim,

    I believe though h33t’s fee is set so high as to discourage take-downs but it would help their case if they blocked repeat or similar uploads. One payment and no more problems.

    My ideal would be not to charge for removal but to charge a fine for invalid removals. Then it is in the interest of the site to look closely for abuse and services would be discouraged doing it. Either solution is of benefit when either they make money or false claims are stamped out.

    Google is the King of the DMCA take-down world. Their 1.2 million rate means 28 each second 24/7 and each of those would take a few minutes to check and to respond to.

    We can begin to see how some copyright protection sites for DMCA take-downs claim they can hammer a site to death.

    • Logic Violated

      H33t is not under US jurisdiction and is not subject to the DMCA, therefore they can charge whatever they please to parties who demand that they comply with a foreign law.

      • Anonymous

        I never said they were. I was just pondering how valid their charge is when for just 2 requests this is hardly worth charging for. The commercial desire would be to set the charge in order to maximise profit.

        Now Google charging between $1 and $5 per take-down request would certainly throw fuel on that fire. I am not sure if under DMCA law they could charge a fair fee for services rendered though.

  • truth

    someone remind me why h33t has the right to share the copyrighted material to begin with? to prove the point about lost sales is one thing, but pirates started the whole thing by going outside the capitalist society (giving stuff for free, preaching about ‘free information’ etc) AND profiting from it, the worst kind of hypocrisy. all the art and media they are sharing for free costs a lot of money to produce, so why is that not in the discussion?

    you can already freely share any information you want, BUT IT HAS TO BE WITH CONSENT FROM THE CREATOR. why is this so hard to understand? we can all share our own made music, paintings, digital works etc, all we want, and thats not illegal because the creators allowed it. the sad truth is these torrent sites are only in it for the money, and they know all the pirate sheeps will scream ideology while (maybe unknowingly) making the owners of the torrent sites rich. they are laughing all the way to the bank and you’re deceiving yourself cause you want free stuff too. fuck that shit

    • http://sheps.myopenid.com/ sh3ps

      “you can already freely share any information you want, BUT IT HAS TO BE WITH CONSENT FROM THE CREATOR. why is this so hard to understand?”

      Oh, we all understand it. We also understand that such a demand is just not feasible or realistic in the information age. So sorry. Humanity created the greatest, most wide-spread copying machine in history, and called it the internet. It is designed to allow anyone to copy anything at anytime. Placing restrictions on who can copy what, when, is futile.

      • truth

        Okay that is actually totally fine. At least you’re not taking a moral and economic high stand. To say you don’t give a fuck about it you just want free stuff, and so does everyone else is at least honest. It may not be moral and it may not enable more creation of media for profit, but at least… It tells it like it is.

        • Anyone

          Sharing is very moral
          didn’t you pay attention in kindergarten?

        • Derp

          Why won’t the pirate bay share some of those millions they made in ad sales with me.

          Did they not go to kindergarten? Give me your money…share it with me!!!!

        • Derp

          Why won’t the pirate bay share some of those millions they made in ad sales with me.

          Did they not go to kindergarten? Give me your money…share it with me!!!!

        • Pianogamer

           You can argue against copyright in moral, economic or pragmatic ways. (morals: they are very subjective).

          But the above argument works the best, because it’s true regardless of your morals or economic analysis (piracy can’t be stopped).

        • ursaring93

           @Derp Most if not all of that probley goes into sever costs, and whatever it takes to hide-out in the Swiss Alps.

        • Guest

          “To say you don’t give a fuck about it you just want free stuff …”

          Sh3ps never said that. Don’t word-stuff.

          To say that filesharers don’t give a fuck and just want free stuff is massively dishonest, and completely ignores the ideological issues at hand, like censorship, government corruption, corporate powers, freedom, and culture. Any filesharer who’s in it  ”for teh free shit lol” is a fucking moron with their head up their ass, and many of their peers would agree with me on that.
           

        • Guest

          @derp

          Because TPB can’t share millions of dollars in ad revnue that only exist in the minds of MAFIAA lawyers and trolls.

        • Anonymous

          Was that merely a straw man argument or spur-of-the-moment hyperbole?

          1) Information will always be shared. Three people can keep a secret as long as two are dead. This is a fundamental part of human nature. Whether it’s government dissidence, terrorist plots, idle gossip, personal information or media files it will become infinitely copied as soon as more than one person has learned of it. This is why even China and before them the sovjet union had to cope with the fact that not even a death sentence can stop a person from sharing the information he’s come across.

          And it has nothing to do with how “important” said information is, either. It’s just the way human beings behave.

          2) In the same token it is also in human nature to reward those who provide entertainment and essentials. Like information sharing this is a survival trait handed down by evolution. And this can be clearly seen by the fact that every study ever made shows that pirates do in fact stand for the majority of the spent money on media and entertainment. There is no “lost sale” and your “free stuff” argument is so much nonsense.

          Save in one respect. Yes, everyone will grab free stuff simply because it’s there. That doesn’t mean the same people aren’t willing to fund their favorite artists and creators. If it did, the recording industry would have been right when they claimed hometaping would kill music, 50 years ago (the same way they claimed the radio would). It didn’t then, and it hasn’t know.

          3) The moral argument. Copyright does not make sense. Thomas jeffersson, Milton Friedman and Adam Smith completely bury the idea from any perspective we can call “capitalistic” or “liberal”. Copyright is simply information control. That this information control is held by private rather than government ones does not make it any less bad.

          Artists and creators which can gather a fan base can obtain money by simply holding out their hands. Artists and creators unable to do this can not and ought to get themselves another job. This is the same rule which applies to ANY profession or craft.

          It’s that simple.

    • Fredrika

      > “someone remind me why h33t has the right to share the copyrighted material to begin with?”

      You seem confused. They do not share any copyrighted material. They offer indexing of non-copyrighted torrent files.

      > “..but pirates started the whole thing by going outside the capitalist society (giving stuff for free, preaching about ‘free information’ etc) AND profiting from it, the worst kind of hypocrisy.”

      More confusion. Offering a free service of indexing and hosting torrent files, and trying to make money from ads at the same time does not go outside the capitalist society in any way. All capitalistic ad based services and products in society work in that exact same way. Nor does offering such a service equal piracy, so no hypocrisy exists.

      You confuse what people filesharing does, which possibly is non-profit piracy, or legal filesharing, with what another party does, as in legally offering the service of indexing torrents. You can not judge or compare two completely different actions and what the latter does based on political belief of the first.

      > “all the art and media they are sharing for free costs a lot of money to produce, so why is that not in the discussion?”

      That production of intellectual works costs money is irrelevant, the creator has freely chosen to sink money into that production.

      If the creator later wishes to act as an entrepreneur and make money from products or services built up around the use of intellectual work that’s the entrepreneurs responsibility alone. That entrepreneurs attempt at making revenues is not the responsibility of neither pirates, politicians or people running specialized search engines as torrent sites.

      Secondly, what people share is their copies, as in information describing the physical patterns of their physical property, not intellectual works. Sharing that costs nothing.

      Do not confuse the intellectual works and possible costs for creating those, with a physical copy or information describing people’s own property, and the cost for transferring this information.

      > “you can already freely share any information you want, BUT IT HAS TO BE WITH CONSENT FROM THE CREATOR.”

      Regarding some sharing in some countries but far from all. In many countries in the world everyone has a fully legal right to fileshare the latest Hollywood movies, regardless of what the creator says about it. Those running torrent sites has no way of controlling or verifying whether individuals filesharing have a right to share their copies or not, and it takes place completely out of their control or insight, so with what logic can you hold people running torrent sites responsible for it?

      > “why is this so hard to understand?”

      Ask yourself that question, regarding the many aspects which you seem to have not fully understood yet. There seems to be quite a few of those..

      > “we can all share our own made music, paintings, digital works etc, all we want, and thats not illegal because the creators allowed it.”

      Our own? Intellectual works does not constitute property and it’s therefore not owned by anyone, or belonging to anyone. People share copies, and they do belong to the person who shares them.

      > “the sad truth is these torrent sites are only in it for the money..”

      You call capitalism and succesful entrepreneurship for sad?

      > “..and they know all the pirate sheeps will scream ideology while (maybe unknowingly) making the owners of the torrent sites rich.

      Again you seem to be against capitalism, the free market and successful entrepreneurship.

      > “..they are laughing all the way to the bank and you’re deceiving yourself cause you want free stuff too.”

      In what way is someone deceiving themselves, because they get what they want, at the same time as successful entrepreneurs make money according to the free market rules?

      • truth

        h33t and other torrent sites are created primarily (not exclusively) to share copyrighted material. not directly – but through what you so eloquently call ‘non-copyrighted torrent files’. i think capitalism must be built on the honest compensation for work, and whether you agree or not, to allow users to share copyrighted files via torrents, and then profit off the fact that their site is ONLY popular BECAUSE of this content created by the media companies, they are breaking such an honest trade by not sharing the profits with the content creators. That is NOT successful entrepreneurship, that is some sort of cheating.

        not to mention, sites like pirate bay openly condone sharing of not just the torrents, but the media files as well. you say yourself art isn’t owned by anyone. well that is in contradiction to the capitalist regime, at least the one we have now. for it to work there has to be ownership, and the ability to sell or lease what you own. do you believe you own your own stuff? Like sweaters, house, etc? if so why don’t people own their own digital works then? why shouldn’t copies be submitted to the same treatment, since they have exactly the same value as the physical or original?

        and yeah, i DO confuse the intellectual property with the creation of that property. i do not think the copy belongs to whoever copied the original. such a system wouldn’t work. today i think enough people realize that simply hoarding thousands of dollars worth of PRISTINE digital copies, without giving a dime back to the company that made it, or indeed society as a whole, is a form of theft for personal enrichment, and if EVERYONE did it, the companies would have to hope for donations or live off ads, or something like that. we’re lucky in this day and age people still go to the cinema, and that they still buy blurays and dvd’s, because if they didn’t, there would be no more such things.

        even if there is a technical difference between hosting a torrent file, and hosting the actual media file, there is virtually no difference to whoever downloads the torrent. if you get a torrent that is seeded, it WILL have the media file, and so in most practical ways they are synonymous. i do not fathom how you can think profiting off the work of someone else is honorable and ‘successful’ simply because they are sharing the torrent and not the file.

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          If I’m a slightly bonkers person that owns a textile fabrication plant for personal usage, and I see a sweater I like the design of. If I then copy that design and create my own, or create one in replacement to a worn out one I already owned, I own those physical copies. I made them with my own resources. I get very funny over the idea that people should be compensated for their ideas, because ideas are worthless if they aren’t share. People should, on the other had, be compensated for their labour, so perhaps after a copyrighted work has made enough to have supplied the creator with the average wage over the creation time of the work they should have any further copyright claims waived. I think that’s fair. It’s certainly not realistic, but neither is the continuation of the DMCA in its current form.

        • truth

          Do you think movies, music and games are ‘ideas’ then? I don’t see how copying a sweater design and copying a movie is the same thing. I mean movies and games can often take many people months or years to create, and practically speaking their survival is dependent on them earning back at least what they spent making it. Technically speaking if everyone had a textile fabrication plant they could create whatever designs and sweaters they wanted, and there could be no more clothes sold, but the creation of a game like Diablo 3 or a movie like transformers could NOT be rendered obsolete by a copying society because of the huge amount of money and manpower involved. There would be no more Transformers movie without that money! (oh horror)

          Media companies are game companies are dependent on selling many copies, not just one, and often times this is to get back all the work and manpower they spent money on. They have to sell a decent amount of copies, in other words. Capitalism states we can earn whatever we get paid back, but that leads to people being paid shitloads more than the labor they did, but that’s another topic. The basic thing is you have to sell a product many times over, especially games and movies, and also independent musicians can even make a living off it.

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

           Yes, games, movies and music are ideas. They are not physical products. What did you think they were, magic? If someone makes a movie and shares it with no-one, it has no value. It may keep him/her entertained for some time, but it cannot provide warmth, a surface to eat off of, food, or anything basically that a physically useful object can bring. It’s an idea that needs to be shared to appreciate value, and the ability to share that idea increases exponentially with greater access to it. That means less restrictions on re-use, less cost involved with obtaining copies, etc, etc.

          Games can be recreated from scratch for free. Do a Google Search for UFO: Alien Invasion. It’s a clone of Microprose’s XCOM, but made almost entirely from FOSS. It’s also absolutely brilliant fun to play if you played the original. They don’t demand money for access to it (sure, they ask for donations as is their right). So yes there is the manpower involved, sure. But manpower =/= guaranteed income. I think you’ll find the more dedicated games developers care very little about what happens to the games sales after it’s complete as long as people like what they see. Stardock, for instance are pretty well known for having a strict minimal DRM policy on their products. As for films, there are many short films being filmed these days for well under £1000. Their concern isn’t piracy, it’s the big corporations stealing their ideas and using their army of lawyers and Hollywood sets and actors to turn it into a blockbuster.

          The thing is, the gaming industry has never struggled because of piracy. Never. Piracy has been around as long as the internet, and the games industry has been growing in strength ever since computer access reached mainstream levels. The movie industry isn’t struggling even with piracy. You only need to look at Avengers to know that. The music industry certainly isn’t struggling, with the BPI continuously reporting record growths. Their problem is that they want progressively larger slices of the pie, and it doesn’t work that way. There’s even some suggestion that ‘pirates’ are actually helping to boost those figures because people who otherwise wouldn’t have bought the product have got to sample it and found it worth buying. ‘Legal alternatives’ such as Spotify have also helped greatly, but they constantly meet hostility from the media companies.

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          Of course, having missed your last line the first time round, I could direct you to the Leader of the Pirate Party UK.

          Did you know he’s an independent musician/composer too?

          *gasp* The horror, someone in the industry is actually against the copyright industries?

        • Anyone

          so if work HAS to be rewarded I can just dig around in my backyard for a few weeks and demand pay? I mean that is basically what you are saying.

          If you create art worth paying for it will be paid for, just look at the recent records of movie revenues (Avengers is the latest), people will pay for quality stuff
          they will not pay for uninspired sequel crap that is just designed to be a quick cashin from people that did not properly inform themselves. those movies will either be ignored or pirated

          so piracy is just a way to quality control, make good movies/music and people will pay for it, make bad movies/music and people not totally brainwashed will not pay for it.

        • truth

          Yeah in a way it is quality control, but on the other there are many who don’t pay for it even if it’s good. I would be willing to digress from my point of view if it could be proven that piracy is actually irrelevant to sales, and that it has no bearing on it. If that was the case then everything worth paying for, would be sold, and everything that wasn’t sold would be worthless. If it is that simple why are game companies, especially smaller ones, going under or at least reporting record high downloads, but very little sales? Same with musicians and labels? Granted, I do not have hard statistics or facts on this, but I imagine it is a REAL problem for content creators, otherwise they wouldn’t give a fuck

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

           Why should we have to prove piracy has no effect on sales. The media industry want to introduce laws to penalise filesharing and break the internet even further, let them prove, for once, it has a negative impact on their sales. Which games companies are going under with ‘record high downloads, but very little sales’?

        • Fredrika

          > “h33t and other torrent sites are created primarily (not exclusively) to share copyrighted material.”

          No, they are created to legally index torrents and information which people wish to share, regardless of any eventual copyright. This is not illegal.

          > “No not directly – but through what you so eloquently call ‘non-copyrighted torrent files’.”

          Eloquently or not, it’s factual, which is one relevant part, and it’s legal, which is another relevant part.

          > “i think capitalism must be built on the honest compensation for work..”

          Which it is in this case. The operators perform hard work to keep the site running.

          Regarding entrepreneurs and creators of intellectual works, they have never been compensated for their work. They are compensated when they sell goods or services. That how risk taking entrepreneurship, capitalism and the free market has always worked. Do you have a problem with how the free market works? Are you advocating a planned economy or communism where people get rewarded even without selling anything?

          > “..and whether you agree or not, to allow users to share copyrighted files via torrents, and then profit off the fact that their site is ONLY popular BECAUSE of this content created by the media companies, they are breaking such an honest trade by not sharing the profits with the content creators.”

          That has been the norm in society for very long, longer since before Sony started profiting from selling blank cassette tapes and double cassette players, which was only popular because of this content created by the media companies. This is honest trade. Obviously successful entrepreneurs should not share their profit with other failed entrepreneurs. Such bailouts has always been harmful to society and the economy.

          > “That is NOT successful entrepreneurship, that is some sort of cheating.”

          That’s your confused personal opinion, which basically nobody shares with you.

          > “not to mention, sites like pirate bay openly condone sharing of not just the torrents, but the media files as well.”

          Which is legal. But where do you say they condone anything exactly, other than sharing your torrents?

          > “you say yourself art isn’t owned by anyone. well that is in contradiction to the capitalist regime, at least the one we have now.”

          No it is not. It’s an indisputable fact regarding property and ownership. Capitalism or not has no relevance to that fact whatsoever.

          > “..for it to work there has to be ownership, and the ability to sell or lease what you own.”

          Now you’re speaking of property, which is indeed owned. Art as in intellectual works does not constitute property.

          > “do you believe you own your own stuff? Like sweaters, house, etc? if so why don’t people own their own digital works then?”

          Because intellectual works does not constitute property. Property is something that has an inherent scarcity, so that only one person at a time can use it, and it can be owned, sold or bought. Neither of those criteria apply to intellectual works.

          > “why shouldn’t copies be submitted to the same treatment..”

          Copies do. Again you confuse the copies with the intellectual works.

          > “..since they have exactly the same value as the physical or original?”

          Something that can be manufactured indefinitely for zero cost has no value whatsoever. Basic economics.

          > “and yeah, i DO confuse the intellectual property with the creation of that property.”

          Now you confuse the intellectual work with intellectual property, which refers to he copyright monopoly, not the intellectual work. Those are two different things.

          > “i do not think the copy belongs to whoever copied the original.”

          According to property laws it does. Your belief is irrelevant to that fact.

          > “..such a system wouldn’t work.”

          The system with property and ownership of it works very well.

          > “today i think enough people realize that simply hoarding thousands of dollars worth of PRISTINE digital copies..”

          They are manufactured for free, and their economical worth is zero, regardless of any belief among the currently hundreds of millions of people filesharing, a number that’s growing by the day.

          > “..without giving a dime back to the company that made it..”

          The copy was made by the person filesharing. You can not pay yourself for work you yourself performed with your own property.

          > “..is a form of theft for personal enrichment..”

          Manufacturing something with your own property, as people filesharing does, can never be theft, even if someone else came with the orginal pattern for the goods you manufactured. Believing otherwise is ignorance or denial of facts and reality.

          > “..and if EVERYONE did it, the companies would have to hope for donations or live off ads, or something like that.”

          What companies do to earn money is their responsibility alone. Whether or not everyone creates copies through filesharing has no relevance for that fact. It’s fully possible to both manufacture copies through filesharing, and at the same time pay money to entrepreneurs through different business models that are built up around the use of the same intellectual works that you already created a copy of. Several independent studies corroborate that this is exactly what pirates does. One does not exclude the other, in reality they both exist in fully functioning and healthy symbiosis.

          > “we’re lucky in this day and age people still go to the cinema, and that they still buy blurays and dvd’s, because if they didn’t, there would be no more such things.”

          The only thing achieved by people continuing to go to the movies and so on is to guarantee that the current monopoly holders continue to exist. Their continued existence is not a necessity for intellectual works to continue to be created.

          > “even if there is a technical difference between hosting a torrent file, and hosting the actual media file..”

          Even if? Believing otherwise is denial of reality.

          > “..there is virtually no difference to whoever downloads the torrent.”

          This article and discussion is not about the person downloading torrents, it’s about the torrent sites, and to them it’s a huge difference, because it’s impossible for them do control whether or not the user has a legal right to fileshare the latest Hollywood movie or not, which many have.

          > “if you get a torrent that is seeded, it WILL have the media file, and so in most practical ways they are synonymous.”

          Which has no relevance whatsoever to this dicsussion.

          > “i do not fathom how you can think profiting off the work of someone else is honorable..”

          Which i have not claimed. But there are several hundred year old business models built up around that well established concept.

          > “..and ‘successful’ simply because they are sharing the torrent and not the file.”

          Whether or not someone is successful depends on whether or not they make any money, if that’s there intention, not what i personally believe, what you believe to be honourable, or whether a torrent or content is shared.

        • truth

          Interesting…

          No, they are created to legally index torrents and information which people wish to share, regardless of any eventual copyright. This is not illegal.
          Yeah but what I meant was they are popular because of the content of those torrent files. The users are primarily there to get content that they have to pay for, and that is the major draw to the site for the owners of the site.

          Eloquently or not, it’s factual, which is one relevant part, and it’s legal, which is another relevant part.
          hosting torrent files is legal, and factual, but that’s not really relevant to the discussion. I’m debating what those sites, and those torrent files, enable users and site owners to do. What are new ways to look at it?

          Regarding entrepreneurs and creators of intellectual works, they have never been compensated for their work. They are compensated when they sell goods or services. That how risk taking entrepreneurship, capitalism and the free market has always worked. Do you have a problem with how the free market works? Are you advocating a planned economy or communism where people get rewarded even without selling anything?

          yeah but then when people go to TPB or h33t or wherever to get those goods, doesn’t that at least on some occasions qualify as a ‘lost sale’? i know you guys hate that notion, and i’m not saying it’s 100% true, but i do think there is a case to be made for people taking someone elses work and distributing it on a completely separate platform, without the original creator having a chance to profit.
          if the torrent sites had for example instituted a system where users could vote on how good a movie was, and how much they enjoyed it, and then the torrent site had paid the creators based on that rating, then we would be closer to an honest and fair system. i don’t see how it’s good that people should just be expected to invest in a movie or a game production, and then anybody can distribute it and make money off it without paying back to the creators, and this is somehow honest capitalism and making the creator a failure?
          also the pirate sites make money regardless of how good or earned the stuff they allow shared is.

          my main points are basically 1. i’m not convinced everything that gets pirated and is good gets bought by those who enjoy it, 2. that the method and rights the site owners have to make money off primarily pirated content is fully justified and 3. that people involved in piracy are completely honest about how justified they feel in doing this (speculation)

          Which is legal. But where do you say they condone anything exactly, other than sharing your torrents?
          one way to look at implicit condoning is to see how the sites are set up (categories etc), the other is all the statements they make about free flow of information, and the flaws of copyright law, which goes against what the media companies want to protect their works. they are not simply protecting the right to share a generic torrent file, but also talking about copyright and the artwork that is being shared.

          Something that can be manufactured indefinitely for zero cost has no value whatsoever. Basic economics.
          the copy has value because it can be used. you can view the movie on your tv, listen to the music on your pc, etc.

          The copy was made by the person filesharing. You can not pay yourself for work you yourself performed with your own property.
          except the person DIDNT make the copy. the entire meaning and content of the copy was made by someone else, the creator of the content. and also i meant that torrent sites and other relevant parties could pay the original creators when they share or allow sharing of such content through torrent files or whatever. spotify has something like this.

          Manufacturing something with your own property, as people filesharing does, can never be theft, even if someone else came with the orginal pattern for the goods you manufactured. Believing otherwise is ignorance or denial of facts and reality.
          this gets the same response as above. the theft part can be debated forever, but the basic point is that you’re enriching your life by copying content that someone else made. the whole meaning of downloading something like that is to experience the media, and so denying that and saying it’s irrelevant simply because it’s a copy of a file, and you created and own the copy is kind of silly.

          What companies do to earn money is their responsibility alone. Whether or not everyone creates copies through filesharing has no relevance for that fact. It’s fully possible to both manufacture copies through filesharing, and at the same time pay money to entrepreneurs through different business models that are built up around the use of the same intellectual works that you already created a copy of. Several independent studies corroborate that this is exactly what pirates does. One does not exclude the other, in reality they both exist in fully functioning and healthy symbiosis.
          yeah, but is this the whole truth? what about all those people who don’t pay for the stuff they download and enjoy? i’m not denying that there is a lot of nuance to this topic, but i don’t think that alleviates everyone’s responsibility to pay back and not just pirate with impunity and never really care about the big picture.

          The only thing achieved by people continuing to go to the movies and so on is to guarantee that the current monopoly holders continue to exist. Their continued existence is not a necessity for intellectual works to continue to be created.
          Oh no that is absolutely true, and I also stated that in an earlier post. We can share and create everything we want without stealing content from those who don’t want us to. That is our choice. But it seems that we still want the stuff they create, we just don’t want to pay for it, at least, many don’t.

          Even if? Believing otherwise is denial of reality.
          Yeah there is a technical different between torrents and actual files, but once you get into ‘levels’ like practicality and economic issues the lines start to blur because of what I said. The torrent file and file the torrent ‘points to’ are practically the same on some levels.

          This article and discussion is not about the person downloading torrents, it’s about the torrent sites, and to them it’s a huge difference, because it’s impossible for them do control whether or not the user has a legal right to fileshare the latest Hollywood movie or not, which many have.
          Which brings in ideas of motive (why operate the site?) and how they run the site (how does it facilitate copyright infringement? how aware are the owners of the site and how prevalent is the focus on copyrighted content?)
          Also even if some countries don’t have laws that prohibit sharing, that’s not really relevant to the countries that DO. A website is global and so at minimum they would have to block the site or content to users in countries that have those laws, or there would need to bet reform of the entire prospect of the site.

        • truth

          I also can’t believe my comments are being hidden due to ‘abuse’. one comment doesn’t seem to even have downvotes, why is that happening? im being honest and not trying to abuse anything.

        • Fredrika

          > “Yeah but what I meant was they are popular because of the content of those torrent files.”

          Which does not change the fact that your claim about why torrent sites exist was false. I’m not interested in guessing what you actually mean, when you write something completely different and incorrect.

          > “The users are primarily there to get content that they have to pay for..”

          No, content has never cost money, because content can not be sold. Content is free, and does not have to be paid for. What can be sold is goods and services, as in copies or streaming, but since that is something that people can manufacture themselves for free, obviously no sane capitalist would pay money for it. Therefore the reason for people visiting torrent sites is because they are smart capitalists that wishes to save money. Again, do you have a problem with capitalism?

          > “..and that is the major draw to the site for the owners of the site.”

          As with Sony and double cassette decks and blank media. A well established concept in society.

          > “..hosting torrent files is legal, and factual, but that’s not really relevant to the discussion.”

          Aah, so the discussion is not about what’s legal and what people are allowed to do, as in running torrent sites? What the law says is irrelevant, but what you personally believe is relevant?

          > “I’m debating what those sites, and those torrent files, enable users and site owners to do.”

          That would be legal indexing of legal torrents which people legally download.

          > “What are new ways to look at it?”

          New ways? It seems to me you’re most interested in protecting the old ways.

          > “yeah but then when people go to TPB or h33t or wherever to get those goods, doesn’t that at least on some occasions qualify as a ‘lost sale’?”

          That has no relevance whatsoever? Lost sales are sales you didn’t deserve. That’s how the free market works.

          > “..i know you guys hate that notion, and i’m not saying it’s 100% true..”

          You guys? You know nothing of what i hate, but i can tell you that what i dislike is when people continuously disregard the actual facts and rewrite reality in every single argument, as you do.

          > “..but i do think there is a case to be made for people taking someone elses work and distributing it on a completely separate platform, without the original creator having a chance to profit.”

          He still has that chance. It’s not forbidden.

          > “if the torrent sites had for example instituted a system where users could vote on how good a movie was, and how much they enjoyed it, and then the torrent site had paid the creators based on that rating, then we would be closer to an honest and fair system.”

          Again you suggest bailouts and that successful entrepreneurs should take from their well earned money and pay those to other failed entrepreneurs that hasn’t sold anything. Again you seem to be against the free market and advocate some weird combination of a planned economy or communism.

          > “..i don’t see how it’s good that people should just be expected to invest in a movie or a game production, and then anybody can distribute it and make money off it without paying back to the creators..”

          Again you confuse the intellectual work, with goods and services manufactured by those offering it. And that you don’t see how it would work out does not mean that other won’t. That’s the difference between a successful entrepreneur and a failed one. The business mind of humans has over and over again been proven remarkable, and your lack of faith in it is highly uninteresting.

          Secondly, that’s how the free market works. Whether it’s good or not has no relevance to that fact.

          > “..and this is somehow honest capitalism..”

          Yes, for centuries the norm in society has been that it’s honest to sell products and services that are only popular because of what some other person came up with previously.

          > “..and making the creator a failure?”

          If an entrepreneur wishes to make money, and he fails to sell, he is by definition a failed entrepreneur. I have not discussed failed creators.

          > “also the pirate sites make money regardless of how good or earned the stuff they allow shared is.”

          This discussion is not about pirate sites. This is about fully legal torrent sites that commits no piracy.

          > “i’m not convinced everything that gets pirated and is good gets bought by those who enjoy it..”

          You still have a hard time separating the intellectual work from goods and services. The latter is the only thing that can be sold, and that’s not the thing that’s pirated.

          So you first point is based on denying reality and rewriting the actual premisses.

          > “that the method and rights the site owners have to make money off primarily pirated content is fully justified..”

          They do not make money of pirated content. They make money from offering an appreciated service, in the same way that Sony makes money from offering appreciated products such as double cassette decks, blank media and CD-burners. This is not something that has to be justified by someone’s personal subjective opinion.

          The only thing relevant is that it’s legal to do so, until someone has successfully justified prohibition against it in law, according to the rules of law, which is not the case.

          So your second point is also irrelevant.

          > “that people involved in piracy are completely honest about how justified they feel in doing this (speculation)”

          First this article is not about people involved in piracy, it’s about legal sites that are not involved in piracy any more than what Sony are when they sell double cassette decks or blank media.

          Secondly, you seem to lack basic understanding of how society works. The only thing that has to be justified is the intrusion into people’s property rights, which the copyright monopoly intrudes into. People filesharing already own all property involved in filesharing, it’s already theirs, and usually ownership counts as justification for why people should be able to do with it as they wish.

          So your third point is also irrelevant.

          > “one way to look at implicit condoning is to see how the sites are set up (categories etc)..”

          Yes, so that people can categorize their torrents in the manner that they wish. That does not equal condoning sharing of other things than torrents, or condoning piracy.

          > “..the other is all the statements they make about free flow of information..”

          Which does not equal condoning sharing of other things than torrents or condoning piracy.

          > “..and the flaws of copyright law..”

          Having political opinions does not equal condoning sharing of other things than torrents or condoning piracy.

          > “..which goes against what the media companies want to protect their works.”

          Having different political opinions than those of large monopoly holders that wish to have their legislative monopoly protected does not equal condoning sharing of other things than torrents or condoning piracy.

          > “they are not simply protecting the right to share a generic torrent file, but also talking about copyright and the artwork that is being shared.”

          Having political opinions about copyright and culture does not equal condoning sharing of other things than torrents or condoning piracy.

          > “the copy has value because it can be used.”

          Something that can be manufactured indefinitely for free has no economical value.

          > “you can view the movie on your tv, listen to the music on your pc, etc.”

          Again you confuse the intellectual work with the copy. The creation of the intellectual work has value, because once it is created people can enjoy it. The copy has no value because that people can manufacture themselves for free indefinitely.

          > “except the person DIDNT make the copy.”

          The person who manufactured the copy manufactured the copy whether he did it in a CD pressing factory or at home with his computer.

          > “the entire meaning and content of the copy was made by someone else, the creator of the content.”

          Again you confuse the intellectual work with the copy. As long as you continue to do that nothing will make sense to you.

          > “and also i meant that torrent sites and other relevant parties could pay the original creators when they share or allow sharing of such content through torrent files or whatever.”

          All entrepreneurs can donate money to other parties, this is not something that needs to be pointed buy.

          > “spotify has something like this.”

          Spotify has something like this for two reasons, their service is built up around the actual use of intellectual works, and because law require them to do that. Nether of those criteria apply to torrent sites.

          > “the theft part can be debated forever..”

          Only if you want to deny reality or are completely ignorant about the facts.

          > “but the basic point is that you’re enriching your life by copying content that someone else made.”

          Enriching one’s life does not mean any theft has taken place.

          > “the whole meaning of downloading something like that is to experience the media, and so denying that and saying it’s irrelevant simply because it’s a copy of a file, and you created and own the copy is kind of silly.”

          Claiming that the act of manufacturing something with your own property according to the free market rules is theft, that is silly, because it has nothing in common with theft, which is to permanently deprive someone of something scarce that he previously had in his possession, so the he no longer has access to it.

          It’s not only silly, it’s also dishonest and a logical fallacy, to use a well established negative word like theft, to try to project the opinion that something is wrong, without actually arguing for why it’s wrong.

          > “what about all those people who don’t pay for the stuff they download and enjoy?”

          Nobody pays for the stuff they download and enjoy. People pay for goods and services.

          > “but i don’t think that alleviates everyone’s responsibility to pay back and not just pirate with impunity and never really care about the big picture.”

          Nobody has that responsibility. All responsibility for the entrepreneurs business model of choice to succeed falls solely upon the entrepreneur. For some reason you try to place a responsibility that doesn’t exist, on people that aren’t responsible for it. Again you seem to be against the free market advocating some bizarre combination of a planned economy and communism.

          > “We can share and create everything we want without stealing content from those who don’t want us to.”

          Which nobody is doing.

          > “But it seems that we still want the stuff they create, we just don’t want to pay for it, at least, many don’t.”

          You can not pay for intellectual works. When will you understand this?

          > “Yeah there is a technical different between torrents and actual files, but once you get into ‘levels’ like practicality and economic issues the lines start to blur because of what I said. The torrent file and file the torrent ‘points to’ are practically the same on some levels.”

          Which does not mean that indexing or hosting torrents equal piracy.

          > “Which brings in ideas of motive (why operate the site?)”

          Because you find it interesting, challenging and rewarding to run a successful site that people appreciate? To make money from ads? Maybe people feel that the possibility to freely exchange information without interference is important for society? It is a human right after all.

          People does all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons, but that has no relevance whatsoever regarding anything in this discussion.

          > “and how they run the site (how does it facilitate copyright infringement?..”

          It does not.

          > “..how aware are the owners of the site and how prevalent is the focus on copyrighted content?)”

          There is no copyrighted content on torrent sites. Why do you continuously rewrite reality and the actual facts in every attempt at producing an actual argument?

          > “Also even if some countries don’t have laws that prohibit sharing, that’s not really relevant to the countries that DO. A website is global and so at minimum they would have to block the site or content to users in countries that have those laws, or there would need to bet reform of the entire prospect of the site.”

          There’s no reason whatsoever to block legal uploading or accessing of legal torrent files?

          The content is not distributed from the torrent sites, so that’s impossible for a torrent site to block, secondly, torrent sites are not the police. It’s not their responsibly to make sure users follow their laws when they sit at their computer in god knows what country.

          Why should people that have a legal right to share the latest Hollywood movie to the entire planet from their computer not be allowed to upload a non-copyrighted torrent file to a search engine?

        • Fredrika

          > “Yeah but what I meant was they are popular because of the content of those torrent files.”

          Which does not change the fact that your claim about why torrent sites exist was false. I’m not interested in guessing what you actually mean, when you write something completely different and incorrect.

          > “The users are primarily there to get content that they have to pay for..”

          No, content has never cost money, because content can not be sold. Content is free, and does not have to be paid for. What can be sold is goods and services, as in copies or streaming, but since that is something that people can manufacture themselves for free, obviously no sane capitalist would pay money for it. Therefore the reason for people visiting torrent sites is because they are smart capitalists that wishes to save money. Again, do you have a problem with capitalism?

          > “..and that is the major draw to the site for the owners of the site.”

          As with Sony and double cassette decks and blank media. A well established concept in society.

          > “..hosting torrent files is legal, and factual, but that’s not really relevant to the discussion.”

          Aah, so the discussion is not about what’s legal and what people are allowed to do, as in running torrent sites? What the law says is irrelevant, but what you personally believe is relevant?

          > “I’m debating what those sites, and those torrent files, enable users and site owners to do.”

          That would be legal indexing of legal torrents which people legally download.

          > “What are new ways to look at it?”

          New ways? It seems to me you’re most interested in protecting the old ways.

          > “yeah but then when people go to TPB or h33t or wherever to get those goods, doesn’t that at least on some occasions qualify as a ‘lost sale’?”

          That has no relevance whatsoever? Lost sales are sales you didn’t deserve. That’s how the free market works.

          > “..i know you guys hate that notion, and i’m not saying it’s 100% true..”

          You guys? You know nothing of what i hate, but i can tell you that what i dislike is when people continuously disregard the actual facts and rewrite reality in every single argument, as you do.

          > “..but i do think there is a case to be made for people taking someone elses work and distributing it on a completely separate platform, without the original creator having a chance to profit.”

          He still has that chance. It’s not forbidden.

          > “if the torrent sites had for example instituted a system where users could vote on how good a movie was, and how much they enjoyed it, and then the torrent site had paid the creators based on that rating, then we would be closer to an honest and fair system.”

          Again you suggest bailouts and that successful entrepreneurs should take from their well earned money and pay those to other failed entrepreneurs that hasn’t sold anything. Again you seem to be against the free market and advocate some weird combination of a planned economy or communism.

          > “..i don’t see how it’s good that people should just be expected to invest in a movie or a game production, and then anybody can distribute it and make money off it without paying back to the creators..”

          Again you confuse the intellectual work, with goods and services manufactured by those offering it. And that you don’t see how it would work out does not mean that other won’t. That’s the difference between a successful entrepreneur and a failed one. The business mind of humans has over and over again been proven remarkable, and your lack of faith in it is highly uninteresting.

          Secondly, that’s how the free market works. Whether it’s good or not has no relevance to that fact.

          > “..and this is somehow honest capitalism..”

          Yes, for centuries the norm in society has been that it’s honest to sell products and services that are only popular because of what some other person came up with previously.

          > “..and making the creator a failure?”

          If an entrepreneur wishes to make money, and he fails to sell, he is by definition a failed entrepreneur. I have not discussed failed creators.

          > “also the pirate sites make money regardless of how good or earned the stuff they allow shared is.”

          This discussion is not about pirate sites. This is about fully legal torrent sites that commits no piracy.

          > “i’m not convinced everything that gets pirated and is good gets bought by those who enjoy it..”

          You still have a hard time separating the intellectual work from goods and services. The latter is the only thing that can be sold, and that’s not the thing that’s pirated.

          So you first point is based on denying reality and rewriting the actual premisses.

          > “that the method and rights the site owners have to make money off primarily pirated content is fully justified..”

          They do not make money of pirated content. They make money from offering an appreciated service, in the same way that Sony makes money from offering appreciated products such as double cassette decks, blank media and CD-burners. This is not something that has to be justified by someone’s personal subjective opinion.

          The only thing relevant is that it’s legal to do so, until someone has successfully justified prohibition against it in law, according to the rules of law, which is not the case.

          So your second point is also irrelevant.

          > “that people involved in piracy are completely honest about how justified they feel in doing this (speculation)”

          First this article is not about people involved in piracy, it’s about legal sites that are not involved in piracy any more than what Sony are when they sell double cassette decks or blank media.

          Secondly, you seem to lack basic understanding of how society works. The only thing that has to be justified is the intrusion into people’s property rights, which the copyright monopoly intrudes into. People filesharing already own all property involved in filesharing, it’s already theirs, and usually ownership counts as justification for why people should be able to do with it as they wish.

          So your third point is also irrelevant.

          > “one way to look at implicit condoning is to see how the sites are set up (categories etc)..”

          Yes, so that people can categorize their torrents in the manner that they wish. That does not equal condoning sharing of other things than torrents, or condoning piracy.

          > “..the other is all the statements they make about free flow of information..”

          Which does not equal condoning sharing of other things than torrents or condoning piracy.

          > “..and the flaws of copyright law..”

          Having political opinions does not equal condoning sharing of other things than torrents or condoning piracy.

          > “..which goes against what the media companies want to protect their works.”

          Having different political opinions than those of large monopoly holders that wish to have their legislative monopoly protected does not equal condoning sharing of other things than torrents or condoning piracy.

          > “they are not simply protecting the right to share a generic torrent file, but also talking about copyright and the artwork that is being shared.”

          Having political opinions about copyright and culture does not equal condoning sharing of other things than torrents or condoning piracy.

          > “the copy has value because it can be used.”

          Something that can be manufactured indefinitely for free has no economical value.

          > “you can view the movie on your tv, listen to the music on your pc, etc.”

          Again you confuse the intellectual work with the copy. The creation of the intellectual work has value, because once it is created people can enjoy it. The copy has no value because that people can manufacture themselves for free indefinitely.

          > “except the person DIDNT make the copy.”

          The person who manufactured the copy manufactured the copy whether he did it in a CD pressing factory or at home with his computer.

          > “the entire meaning and content of the copy was made by someone else, the creator of the content.”

          Again you confuse the intellectual work with the copy. As long as you continue to do that nothing will make sense to you.

          > “and also i meant that torrent sites and other relevant parties could pay the original creators when they share or allow sharing of such content through torrent files or whatever.”

          All entrepreneurs can donate money to other parties, this is not something that needs to be pointed buy.

          > “spotify has something like this.”

          Spotify has something like this for two reasons, their service is built up around the actual use of intellectual works, and because law require them to do that. Nether of those criteria apply to torrent sites.

          > “the theft part can be debated forever..”

          Only if you want to deny reality or are completely ignorant about the facts.

          > “but the basic point is that you’re enriching your life by copying content that someone else made.”

          Enriching one’s life does not mean any theft has taken place.

          > “the whole meaning of downloading something like that is to experience the media, and so denying that and saying it’s irrelevant simply because it’s a copy of a file, and you created and own the copy is kind of silly.”

          Claiming that the act of manufacturing something with your own property according to the free market rules is theft, that is silly, because it has nothing in common with theft, which is to permanently deprive someone of something scarce that he previously had in his possession, so the he no longer has access to it.

          It’s not only silly, it’s also dishonest and a logical fallacy, to use a well established negative word like theft, to try to project the opinion that something is wrong, without actually arguing for why it’s wrong.

          > “what about all those people who don’t pay for the stuff they download and enjoy?”

          Nobody pays for the stuff they download and enjoy. People pay for goods and services.

          > “but i don’t think that alleviates everyone’s responsibility to pay back and not just pirate with impunity and never really care about the big picture.”

          Nobody has that responsibility. All responsibility for the entrepreneurs business model of choice to succeed falls solely upon the entrepreneur. For some reason you try to place a responsibility that doesn’t exist, on people that aren’t responsible for it. Again you seem to be against the free market advocating some bizarre combination of a planned economy and communism.

          > “We can share and create everything we want without stealing content from those who don’t want us to.”

          Which nobody is doing.

          > “But it seems that we still want the stuff they create, we just don’t want to pay for it, at least, many don’t.”

          You can not pay for intellectual works. When will you understand this?

          > “Yeah there is a technical different between torrents and actual files, but once you get into ‘levels’ like practicality and economic issues the lines start to blur because of what I said. The torrent file and file the torrent ‘points to’ are practically the same on some levels.”

          Which does not mean that indexing or hosting torrents equal piracy.

          > “Which brings in ideas of motive (why operate the site?)”

          Because you find it interesting, challenging and rewarding to run a successful site that people appreciate? To make money from ads? Maybe people feel that the possibility to freely exchange information without interference is important for society? It is a human right after all.

          People does all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons, but that has no relevance whatsoever regarding anything in this discussion.

          > “and how they run the site (how does it facilitate copyright infringement?..”

          It does not.

          > “..how aware are the owners of the site and how prevalent is the focus on copyrighted content?)”

          There is no copyrighted content on torrent sites. Why do you continuously rewrite reality and the actual facts in every attempt at producing an actual argument?

          > “Also even if some countries don’t have laws that prohibit sharing, that’s not really relevant to the countries that DO. A website is global and so at minimum they would have to block the site or content to users in countries that have those laws, or there would need to bet reform of the entire prospect of the site.”

          There’s no reason whatsoever to block legal uploading or accessing of legal torrent files?

          The content is not distributed from the torrent sites, so that’s impossible for a torrent site to block, secondly, torrent sites are not the police. It’s not their responsibly to make sure users follow their laws when they sit at their computer in god knows what country.

          Why should people that have a legal right to share the latest Hollywood movie to the entire planet from their computer not be allowed to upload a non-copyrighted torrent file to a search engine?

        • Guest

          “h33t and other torrent sites are created primarily (not exclusively) to share copyrighted material. not directly ”

          h33t and other torrent sites are created to catalogue user-uploaded torrent files, period. The content linked to by these torrent files isn’t determined by the site operators. You want want to blame somebody for copyright infringement, blame the user community. 

          Now here’s a question for you: can you explain how filesharing is even a problem? If it was going to destroy the creative industry, it would have done so by now. If it was going to kill indie artists and “the little guy”, it would have done so by now. 

          Tens of millions of people filesharere, and yet the industry still lives. Artists are still making money. Blockbusters are still being made. The “little guy” is still squeeking by like he always has been.

          So what’s the problem? Is the problem that filesharing has redistributed the balance of power away from rich gatekeepers and towards the peasants? Is that it?

        • Guest

          @truth
          “I mean movies and games can often take many people months or years to create, and practically speaking their survival is dependent on them earning back at least what they spent making it. ”

          No. Just about every person involved in the production of a movie or game have already been paid in full by the time the product ships. Only a select few people recieve residuals and therefore actually make money from sales, and they’re usually the upper management suit monkeys who did jack shit for the project.

          Or MAFIAA leeches cashing in a licensing cheque.

        • Guest

          @truth
          “yeah but then when people go to TPB or h33t or wherever to get those goods, doesn’t that at least on some occasions qualify as a ‘lost sale’?”

          We already know that pirates spend more money on entertainment than regular consumers do(thanks to an ever increasing number of studies). So anybody who claims that downloads=losts sale is already standing on  some shakey ground. You got anything real to indicates that the industry loses x% percent of sales to sharing? What is the percentage? 

          What if there are a few lost sales, but they’re all eclipsed by the sales gained through the free promotion provided by sharing?

          EMI must think they are, since they’ve been known to intentionally leak the music of their own clients to sharers. Behind closed doors, even the MAFIAA knows that sharing helps rather than hurts. Although it doesn’t stop them from being enraged that their monopoly is slipping away…

        • Anonymous

          Some facts of which you seem to be unaware…

          “i think capitalism must be built on the honest compensation for work…”

          False premise. In any capitalistic paradigm, “proper” compensation is ruled exclusively by supply and demand as determined by where the consumer spends his money. If you want to assign compensation for a copy of media by the rules of capitalism then technology itself assigns that value as “0″.

          Indeed, any service can only be assigned what the market will pay for it. If Trent Reznor, Paulo Coelho, Rebecca Black and numerous other artists can make a killing by selling on the market copies of material which they themselves have already made available for free then it follows that the creator can already gain honest compensation on the marketplace.

          “if so why don’t people own their own digital works then? why shouldn’t copies be submitted to the same treatment, since they have exactly the same value as the physical or original?”

          You do own your work. Do with the original as you wish. A copy, under any basic rule of capitalism, has the exact fiscal value of “0″. The only reasonable way for you to keep and maintain control over such copies is simply not to make any in the first place. Indeed, even cursory reading of Adam Smith and Milton Friedman buries the entire idea of “copyright” being a part of “ownership”. It’s the other way around.

          “Copyright” tacitly assumes a severe restriction of personal ownership. As such it belongs to another paradigm than capitalism entirely. Indeed, you can find a coherent argument for information control only by looking at collectivist ideology such as communism where monopoly of distribution of information is assumed.

          Try this on for size: If you as a person publish sensitive information about yourself where thousands can access it then you will find no personal sympathy nor legal recourse whenever said information is misused. Only where copyrighted materials are concerned do we have a huge exception to both moral rule and common sense.

          “and yeah, i DO confuse the intellectual property with the creation of that property. i do not think the copy belongs to whoever copied the original. such a system wouldn’t work. ..”

          That’s not the only thing you confuse here. Such a system does work.
          Every day in fact. For all of recorded history this has been the norm. Copying information is built right into our genes all the way down to this day. In assuming otherwise you make the same mistake Marx did when he assumed that you could abolish greed and ambition from human nature. Any system which tries to do so will fail. I’m not sure where you come from but if you are from the US you might be advised to read Thomas Jeffersson – you’ll find that his views are identical to ours. Not surprising as we pirates copy him extensively. If you are from the UK you might want to dig up what the original statesmen protesting the implementation of copyright had to say – their arguments have proven quite true for 400 years now.

          “…we’re lucky in this day and age people still go to the cinema, and that they still buy blurays and dvd’s, because if they didn’t, there would be no more such things…

          That’s not “luck” by any stretch. What you are making an argument for is that bottled water companies can not exist because everyone has the ability to possess a soda streamer. Manifestly false.

          If a copy has intrinsic value in itself then by all accounts every teenager should be able to trade his stocked iPod in for a florida beachside villa. Which is where your entire argument falls apart. A copy can have no intrinsic value. If it did, it would be freely convertible to money which it is not.

          People go to the cinema because of the experience and they buy DVD’s and Blu-rays because they want a “legitimate” physical copy of what they find worthwhile. Pirates are enthusiasts and collectors. Most of them that I know possess entire bookshelves filled with legitimate DVD’s lovingly sorted by title, producer, or theme. They have well-used steam accounts. They go to the cinema as a regular habit. In short they spend every surplus money they have on buying media. That they also possess well-used hard drives and download ten times as much which ends up getting viewed once or halfway through before being erased from the HD doesn’t alter the fact that there is no “loss” to the companies anywhere.

          Other than in your mind.

        • Anonymous

          As a side note to your comment below:

          “I would be willing to digress from my point of view if it could be proven that piracy is actually irrelevant to sales, and that it has no bearing on it. If that was the case then everything worth paying for, would be sold, and everything that wasn’t sold would be worthless.”

          http://www.laquadrature.net/wiki/Studies_on_file_sharing 

          We have dozens of peer-reviewed studies proving EXACTLY that.

          However, there is one comment to be made about why numerous game companies fail. The competition has become fiercer. If people could afford to purchase and play one game in 2000 the same holds true now. But with ten times as many game producers in the market you can expect that the cake gets smaller for everyone.

          The record downloads are easily explained. The savvy consumer downloads the hyped game, tries it out, goes “meh” and erases it. This is why one game becomes a raging success and other games published in the same period crash – despite the fact that all of the games published have been, for all intents and purposes, distributed ad infinitum via bittorrent. It’s also why on TPB you find massive downloads on specific games while the commentary fields is filled with scathing criticism.

          This is what real consumer power looks like. The winning entry gets all the money. The rest fight for scraps. If anything what filesharing does is that it opens the field for real capitalism.

    • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

      When was the last time someone asked Picasso if he was cool with them selling his paintings?

    • Glib

      You seem to be under the impression that h33t is sharing copyrighted content. I’d like to understand what absolutely retarded logic you’d need to use to come up with that.

      You do realise that they are, for all intents and purposes, providing the same service that Google has began their entire business off, right? If you type whatever you typed in h33t’s search engine into Google (except followed that word with “torrent”), Google would provide you with THOUSANDS more results? How does having a site that has links on it equal sharing copyrighted material?

      By your logic, newsgroups, e-mail, dropbox, FTPs, websites, etc should all be subject to having any content on them immediately removed that was uploaded by users … for free. It’d piss me off pretty amazingly if my Sublime folder, which is publicly shared in my Dropbox and holds my current projects, was deleted by some bot because the band sent out a DMCA request and the only monetarily feasible way for Dropbox to comply is blindly.

      Fees, of some sort, ensure someone thinks for 5 seconds before asking to take something down, and gives the company compensation, ideally, to pay someone to deal with it in an orderly and quick fashion, while ensuring the DMCA is valid and the data they’re removing has a point.

      Imagine if e-mail was added to the list of targets for DMCA, the likely TRILLIONS of e-mails that would be subject to scrutiny …. for free?

      • truth

        Ok well we have two issues here. First I never said that Google is any less liable for copyright infringement than h33t, nor youtube, nor dropbox. They are all just as liable. As is FTP, email and newsgroups too. The point isn’t about the mechanism for delivery but rather what is delivered and why. Granted, controlling essentially the whole internet is a retarded notion, at least now, but it doesn’t make it any more morally right or systemically good to share copyrighted things. The two things are somewhat at odds with each other, but I think it’ll be fine if people took some responsibility and bought what they used so that everyone gets the most economic compensation for their work, especially those who enjoy the work. That doesn’t happen as much today. People have huge libraries of ripped movies and music that they actively enjoy and use, and I think giving a little back isn’t a bad thing at all.

        Second point is, there is a big problem with overly easy takedowns, I saw google gets notices from WB to take down the IMDB page for one of their movies, and some companies can take down entire sites based on DMCA or other law, like megaupload, which creates tons of victims for those who are legal. That is no doubt a complex issue, and maybe charging for takedowns is one option to mitigate it, but I still don’t think they are morally right to profit off of that copyrighted work, and FROM the creators of that content that are filing the takedown too! If they had given payment to the media companies based on the downloads of the torrents, then yeah, that would be a fair share. But right now the owners of sites are pocketing ALL of it, and I don’t think that’s right.

        • Anyone

          so the post office is liable as well if someone sends copied DVDs over it?
          should every packet be opened and its content checked?

          do you realise how crazy you sound?

          in a perfect world the MAFIAA should have NO way to remove content from ANY site. sites offering that service for a fee should be the best case scenario for them, but instead they bitch and moan like the spoiled little brat that they are.

        • truth

          Well I said the same thing you said above. It is impossible to control everything like that, or at least it takes away WAY too much privacy and liberty. That’s not the point. The better, but more utopian solution, is for people to acknowledge this themselves and stop pirating. Or, they pirate but they compensate the companies back what they use, or the torrent sites/etc do it. A grassroots solution is better than top down CONTROL EVERYTHING one, which is, as you say, crazy. It SEEMS to be the direction we’re heading in, but the crazies at TPB and the whole pro-piracy thing isn’t helping that. If we showed some GOOD WILL as a people to work on solutions TOGETHER with the companies, then maybe they would respect us more, and we would respect them, and they wouldn’t have to go to such drasti measures.
          In many ways this censorship is brought on ourselves by our behavior.

        • Anyone

          sharing is caring
          you learn that in kindergarten or even before that
          why is sharing suddenly a bad thing?

          as has been said many times before there is NO loss of revenue because of piracy. movies/cds that get pirated often also get bought often. just compare the “top most downloaded” list that is here on TF regularly with the box office of those movies, you’d find a correlation.

          there is no justification for censorship. none.
          and the only people to blame for it are the MAFIAA and the politicians they bribed.

        • Anyone

          sharing is caring
          you learn that in kindergarten or even before that
          why is sharing suddenly a bad thing?

          as has been said many times before there is NO loss of revenue because of piracy. movies/cds that get pirated often also get bought often. just compare the “top most downloaded” list that is here on TF regularly with the box office of those movies, you’d find a correlation.

          there is no justification for censorship. none.
          and the only people to blame for it are the MAFIAA and the politicians they bribed.

        • Anyone

          sharing is caring

          you learn that in kindergarten or even before that

          why is sharing suddenly a bad thing?

          as has been said many times before there is NO loss of revenue because
          of piracy. movies/cds that get pirated often also get bought often. just
          compare the “top most downloaded” list that is here on TF regularly
          with the box office of those movies, you’d find a correlation.

          there is no justification for censorship. none.

          and the only people to blame for it are the MAFIAA and the politicians they bribed.

        • Anonymous

          Look through every study ever made by governments and think tanks on the issue of “piracy” and you will find that the heaviest pirates tend to also be the ones who spend the most money on bought media. By a very large factor.

          Secondly, there is no practical way that copyright can fit into any world where there is any such thing as generally available communications medium. For all intents and purposes, if filesharing in a population hits 5-10%, distribution is global and infinite already. In short, it’s either no internet at all or rampant filesharing. we already have facts in hand for that statement.

          You seem to be assuming a great deal of what is verifiably false. “Pirates” spend more on media than anyone else. That they download more than they buy, well, I think I can say with a great deal of confidence that most pirates who actually use the material they have eventually purchase said material. For a great many reasons. My own primarily being that what I have on display in my shelves is a statement of my tastes and preferences.

          The third way is where you make the claim that sharing copyrighted material between strangers for nothing is somehow “bad” it isn’t. If anything it enriches the world as a whole.

          For the moral argument, see Thomas Jeffersson’s idea about intelelctual property. You’ll find his reasoning to be 100% pure pirate.

          For the financial argument, instead see Milton Friedman or Adam Smith.

          From the artists view, be aware of this. For every time copyright has benefited a creator you find a great many cases where copyright was used AGAINST the same creator.
          Copyright is a legal weapon which was for all practical purposes far more easy to apply for a large company with resources rather than the humble artist. It was designed so by choice. That’s not new and since the 16th century when copyright was in effect invented not one year has gone by without this fact being highlighted by someone or other.

          Non-commercial infringement can not prevent an artist from creating a brand and selling their own products. Copyright on the other hand, can. And does.

          Your entire argument in the end pivots on the sole question of whether one person has the right to prevent others from reciting the lines he wrote to other people. I humbly submit that I think the only way a creator should have such a right is if he kept those lines a secret in the first place.

    • Guest

      “someone remind me why h33t has the right to share the copyrighted material to begin with?”

      Someone remind me how anybody has he “right” to restrict the right to share? The Internet has torn down the artificial barriers erected by the content monopolies. Deal with it.

      “but pirates started the whole thing by going outside the capitalist society”

      You say that like it’s a bad thing, like the capitalist society wasn’t a broken mess of price fixing and emasculated consumers. 

      “AND profiting from it”

      Evidence or GTFO.

      “you can already freely share any information you want, BUT IT HAS TO BE WITH CONSENT FROM THE CREATOR”

      Nope. Human culture doesn’t work like that. Sorry.

      “the sad truth is these torrent sites are only in it for the money”

      Yes, these torrent sites are only in it for the huge sums of money that you have no proof they’re making. Those bastards. It’s all so clear to me now.

    • Anonymous

      There are any amount of arguments we could use to settle your straw man arguments and adress the few relevant questions you bring.

      However, that all becomes irrelevant when we consider the fact that your entire post has no basis to stand on.

      To whit, that WHATEVER any specific person has done or not done does NOT condone a witch hunt for a third party who in practice has few or no effective means of checking what the first person has done or not because you think “SOMEONE has to pay and I don’t care who”

      We can save the entire argument about what moral or ethical “rights” a creator has to prevent person B from copying information from person A once you get out of the sandbox. There is a limit to which degree you can apply culpability.

  • Guest

    The whole notion of copyright takedowns, alogn many more, needs full revision.
    It is too strict and does not make sense, it’ll often leave websites with one of two options:
    A: Do everything automatically and risk taking down content that shouldn’t have really been taken down.

    B: Do a proper process for every notic so only the right stuff will be removed, and declare bankrupt because it was too much work.

    If the options are an irresponsible system or an impossible system, there is something wrong.
    This is simple logic and common sense.

    • Anonymous


      If the options are an irresponsible system or an impossible system, there is something wrong.”

      Yes there is. Copyright.

  • Pingback: Should Websites Charge A Fee To Process Copyright Takedowns? - Webmaster Forum: Webhosting, SEO, Internet Marketing

  • Ivi

    MAFIAA -> www : you have our bad content
    www -> MAFIIA: your claim will applied, after you sent us $50 and the reason. If content owner complain within 60days about the takedown, and our staff doesn’t find the reason for takedown, we will give the money to the content owner and 10% as administration fee to us. But if he doesn’t complain, we will send you the money back.
    MAFIAA -> www: Ok, here is the reason for takedown and the $50.
    www -> MAFIAA : content was taken down, content owner was informed and waiting for reply

    content owner -> www: The reason is not applicable. Hereby I reject the takedown. Please restore my website.
    www -> MAFIAA: The content owner rejected your claim. Our staff has also rejected the claim. $45 will be sent to content owner and $5 used as FEE. Takedown was taken removed.
    www -> MAFIAA: In case you do not agree with this respond, you can claim via regular judge/law the takedown and your fee of $50 will be returned.

    • Ivi

      If MAFIAA has right, then they will not loose any penny and content will be taken down. If they fail to provide sufficien reason, they loose money. Of course they can request judge for takedown if their claim is rejected, but I doubt they will try to do it on meaningless content…

      Of course same can be used also for websites, but the fee will be based on visitors, ad income, other income. So if MAFIAA takes down mysuccesful website for no reason, I will profit on it.

  • theonlyone

    “One anti-piracy company says charging for takedowns amounts to extortion.”

    That is just hilarious. WTF do you call this fightcopyrighttrolls.com !
    When ISPs get subpoenas for subscriber information they charge for their time in the USA. Google gets compensation also.

  • theonlyone

    “One anti-piracy company says charging for takedowns amounts to extortion.”

    That is just hilarious. WTF do you call this fightcopyrighttrolls.com !
    When ISPs get subpoenas for subscriber information they charge for their time in the USA. Google gets compensation also.

  • demonluo

    :( it doesn’t work on my IE7/FF3.5 (although it work on my IE9) so pls fix the compatibility issues coz not everyone using the lastest version of the browser…

  • demonluo

    :( it doesn’t work on my IE7/FF3.5 (although it work on my IE9) so pls fix the compatibility issues coz not everyone using the lastest version of the browser…

    • IE-Webmaters-Nightmare

      good! people who still use IE deserve to be ignored ;)

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_UJ4XRIA3A3E6MYGK755EGWLN4Q Dani A

        Indeed, and people who use anything prior to IE8 should be kicked out of the internet pool. :P

        • http://gene-poole.tumblr.com Gene Poole

          My Netscape 4.7 isn’t rendering the page properly! WHAT’S GOING ON HERE??

        • Anonymous

          People who use IE 6 and 7 will be kicking themselves out of the internet pool without much outside intervention.

    • Anyone

      people not using the latest version of a browser should not be allowed on the internet

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_GU43EPIIFPT4SZQYYCXUDMZG5I DJ Night Force 9

    On the one hand it would end the gratuitous takedown requests. If someone has to pay money for another party to take material down, it better darn well be a legitimate request. It would also end (or at least significantly reduce) fake DMCA complaints because nobody would want to pay real money just to spread a lie about what really isn’t theirs.

    On the other hand, why should anyone pay another company in order to enforce a law (i.e. that the material shouldn’t have been put there in the first place)? It’d be like having to hand money over to the police before they will come by and arrest the person who just broke into your house (mind you that is a far more urgent matter). In addition, it’s easy to abuse this because what’s stopping someone from purposely putting up a ton of copyrighted content only for it to cost a fortune for the copyright holders to remove (not that I don’t want the copyright trolls to go out of business and the sooner, the better).

    Still a double edged sword if you ask me.

    • Fredrika

      > “On the other hand, why should anyone pay another company in order to enforce a law..”

      This article is not about enforcing law? DMCA is a North American disastrous economical growth harming invention, it has no judicial relevance on any other country. This article is about voluntary removal of torrents in countries outside North America, which indeed is something one can expect adequate payment for.

      > “..(i.e. that the material shouldn’t have been put there in the first place)?”

      If someone wishes to index his torrent, indexing his own physical property, it obviously should be there in the first place.

      • Phillip J. Fry

        yeah cuz like the internet hasn’t grown at all in the 14 years the DMCA has been in place. I mean what has America created for the internet in the last 14 years…NADA!

        And yeah, what about all those torrents that the producers put up themselves which obviously wouldn’t be reported so yeah i mean it totally nullifies your retort but fuck that just make an unrelated statement that has nothing to do with the comment and whatnot. Killer!

        • Anyone

          the DMCA should not have passed in the first place, it’s disastrous for the internet, copyright trolls can easily shut down any site that wants to do business in the US by simply overloading them with takedown requests, and there is no penalty for false takedowns.

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

           If by America you mean the legislative structure that created the DMCA then no, they’ve given the Internet nothing but grief over the past 14 years.

          The thing to remember about the internet is that it’s basically the biggest open source project of all time. It started out as a military communications research project and then developed into an academic networking system in a later iteration before Berners Lee and co brought us the WorldWideWeb. There are two fundamental points here that led to the internet we have today.

          1. Schools and universities would really rather not pay for stuff if possible. They also needed other academic institutes to take part to make the project actually useful. The easiest way to do that is simply share the technology.

          2. Manufacturers would much rather develop their own standards for their devices to lock users into their platform if the established standard costs money to implement. If the standard is free and popular, it makes more sense to support that instead (except in certain circumstances).

          The bodies that contribute to the development of the internet today are bodies like IETF, IEEE, W3C, CERN, IANA, ICANN, individual developer groups and task forces, etc. There are all independent of any government, with the exception I believe of IANA and ICANN, which still have loose links to the US government. They’re the ones that are responsible for web innovation.

        • Guest

          >
          yeah cuz like the internet hasn’t grown at all in the 14 years the DMCA has been in place. I mean what has America created for the internet in the last 14 years…NADA!

          Yeah, cuz like the Internet hasn’t grown at all in the years that we had economic crises, murder, rape, and other various negative scenarios that exist, so therefore we should persist in preserving these negative scenarios.

          Moron.

  • DMCA

    Actually, this isn’t a bad idea! I mean, it’d reduce the amount of fake DMCA takedowns significantly (apart from big corps who have an extremem amount of money to spend on fake DMCA takedowns). I’d be more than happy for this to pass as a law for us to be allowed to do this!

    Amazing idea! <3

  • Sketch6995

    I was a mod at h33t for a long time, henry never paid us to mod the torrents, does this mean he is gonna pay his mods now??

    • pointzero

      Nah, mods are to do the work for free, I’m sure you know this by now.
      And admins get to make the money off your time and effort.

      Best regards, ex-mod on torrent site.

      • TPB

        Sad but true … yet when people like you mention this sort of stuff on Torrentfreak people get derfensive claiming it’s non-profit … best example of this is ThePirateBay, people often try and say since the lack of proof that they earn lots of money then they must make barely any money regardless of what stares them in the face with a mass amount of popup ads and registering a company with a bank account in Seychelles (doesn’t sound like something what a website would do which earns close to nothing money).

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          Why is it unreasonable for TPB to have a company with a bank account in the Seychelles? It puts it out of reach of most of the authorities determined to shut it down and it carries less issues compared to being funded directly by PPSE.

        • Fredrika

          > “..best example of this is ThePirateBay, people often try and say since the lack of proof that they earn lots of money then they must make barely any money regardless of what stares them in the face with a mass amount of popup ads and registering a company with a bank account in Seychelles..”

          When trying to grasp the financial situation of Pirate Bay there are a few things one should understand first.

          Since it’s been established that US Government has bullied Sweden into shutting the site down no matter what, even though the judicial systems considers it fully legal, they have to expect another illegal seek-and-destroy-raid, as the last time. Because of this, the site has multiple redundancy mirrors on different unknown locations, ready to kick in at a moments notice, if the main one should be stopped. Each such mirror location doubles the costs.

          Secondly, to keep those mirrors unknown location wise, and always ready, they each require separate operators, which could triple or quadruple employee salaries.

          Thirdly, since the government have already proven that they purposely wish to cause as much harm as possible during such seek-and-destroy-raids, not giving a damn about collateral damage, Pirate Bay might not share servers, storage facilities and other required hardware with other sites(obviously not wishing to cause innocent people harm), which is what normally enables a hosting provider to spread out all the costs over a large amount of customers, and keeping prices reasonable. As a result, Pirate Bay no doubt pays the highest prices in the world for their server costs spread out per visitor, regardless of if they are able to buy it from some brave hosting providers, or if they might even have to pay for facilities, power and hardware all from scratch.

          Fourth, since the operators, if they are identified, can expect a raid at their homes, and at also their partners homes, they might require multiple living locations. One official home, a front, where they can expect a raid with police trashing everything, a place where they have no valuables or personal items that they would prefer not to have destroyed or seized. But also a second secret home, where they can live a normal life and invest time and money into things that they don’t wish to have destroyed and seized.

          Fifth, let’s not forget that Riaa, Mpaa and their local counterparts for the last seven years has continuously contacted every single advertiser on the site, telling them lies and propaganda about the site committing piracy, trying to threaten or scare them to not advertise there, implying that they might end up in court otherwise. As a result, normal large advertisers are rarely seen on Pirate Bay, and ad prices are way cheaper than on other top 100 sites, which they have to be for Pirate Bay to be able to attract advertisers in the first place, advertisers that feel that it’s worth it, and that they get something in return for having to put up with the constant harassment from the Mafiaa.

          If you add these five different unfortunate and unfair circumstances up, the costs for running Pirate Bay can easily be rather enormous compared to other sites with similar traffic, and in reality, despite ignorant copyright trolls continuously spreading false propaganda that Pirate Bay has huge profits, the possibility for profit does basically not exist after all the extra costs are paid, even of they would seek them.

          > “..(doesn’t sound like something what a website would do which earns close to nothing money).”

          Placing one’s funds where they can’t be easily touched, to guarantee that the site can continue to operate regardless of any eventual sabotage sounds very smart and responsible.

        • Guest

          Yeah, people say that just because there’s no proof TPB makes a lot of money it means the allegations that TPB does make a lot of money are “baseless” or something.

          Who gives a fuck about proof, seriously? Ignorant conjecture for the win, bro.

        • TPB

          I’m not saying it’s unreasonable for TPB to register in Seychelles. All I’m pointing out is for something like they they’d have to make making quite a nice figure of money to do so.

          All I’m trying to point out is that TPB does make a lot of money and I’m sick of people trying to deny it all the time. It has multiple ads on it’s website viewed by millions of people daily with the server specs which don’t come to an extremely high total as you’d expect – since they don’t need servers to host any files it’s relatively cheap – unlike Megaupload which needs premium accounts because it litterly costs millions per month to keep up and running. I’m not against TPB using ads, I’m merely pointing out the obvious which is they do earn a significant amont of money. If you’re a webmaster then you’d realise with millions of traffic daily the result is earning millions yourself.

        • Anyone

          I’ve never seen any ads on TPB ;)
          but even if they make millions: good for them. they offer a service people enjoy and deserve to be rewarded. that’s how capitalism works

  • FuzzyDuck

    Right on, great points by h33t.

  • Guest

    Yes they should charge a fee.

  • Lord Sugar

    Ahaahaha FilesTube administrator should charge $150 a go just so that the industry has to pay $30,000,000 a month

  • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

    If you want to take the fight to twitter, his handle is @tdpnate

  • http://twitter.com/Anime4PSP Anime 4 PSP

    Wise, if they want to send bogus takedown notices they should at least pay sites for processing them

  • AbuseMe

    Comment hidden due to abuse reports. Show comment.

  • Jason

    Small company can post content to their own site and collect fees to take it back off.

  • Guest

    “The point isn’t about the mechanism for delivery but rather what is delivered and why. Granted,
    controlling essentially the whole internet is a retarded notion, at least now, but it doesn’t make it any more morally right or systemically good to share
    copyrighted things.”

    But this is only a technical limitation not a civil libertarian justification, and once moore’s law catches up with consumer crypto systems, DPI of even private communication becomes possible.

    So are you saying that even perfect copyright enforcement of all electronic communication would be just if it was technically possible?

    What about anonymous networks like Tor, I2P and Freenet?

    Should they be banned if their infrastructure either mean that information control is impossible, or should information control be abolished?

    DMCA takedowns are really only the tip of the iceberg.

     

  • Guest

    Or even better a criminal enterprise could use the DMCA process for money laundering. Just buy the copyright to some meaningless stuff, and upload it to a file sharing site. Create a shell corporation called Copyright Enforcement LLC, and pay it for taking down the content. Even if the value of the copyright is low, you have a perfect alibi for pouring more money into the copyright business than the copyright is worth, and best of all expenses associated with enforcing your “intellectual property” are  tax deductable. Under the DMCA, the file sharing site must delete the content, and the operator has no reason for keeping any evidence after acting on the takedown.

  • RIAA Hater

    That Nate Glads is one fucking suck up for MAFIAA-style bullshit copyright trolling. I bet he secretly supports piracy because he couldn’t profit without it.

  • Anonymouse

    A DMCA take down notice is a legal document so you will need to have a lawyer read ind interpret it for you this isn’t going to be cheap then then you have to find the the file and remove it $50 seems more than reasonable.

    • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

      It’s only a legal document in the US. Outside the US it’s just a ‘piece of paper’.

      • MC

        I want to agree with you, but we cannot forget the huge DMCA jurisdictional export the US pulled with the sacking of megaupload. The US position is, if you run a website anywhere in the world (or at the very least the west)  without “voluntarily” honouring the American DMCA legislation, we can and will extradite your ass.

        And due to the geopolitics of the west, theyre pretty much right. Just look at NZ, UK etc. No Western client state will stand up to an American request against one on their own citizens. So you either take the drastic step of IP blocking the entire united states from your website, or act as if US law applies to the whole web, which very dangerous precedents have already been set to that effect.

        Its American colonialism in cyberspace, exactly the same as how they behave in the real world.

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          Fair point, but in the case of h33t, they may be based in a country that has no extradition treaty with the US. In which case, there’s no case.

  • mwhahaha

    Best solution – Charge for inaccurate takedown notices. Charge a lot.

  • Anonymous

     I am all for charging the asshole MAFIAA if they want me to respond to their lame BS.

  • TheOiulkj

    enigmax, dude, your grammar is horrible. So is mine, but holy shit I can’t even understand some of the crap you type.

    A mistake here are there is fine, but every damn article you write is full of retard.

  • Mydickisbig

    “We are breaking the law, but for a fee we will stop breaking the law.” This whole thread is another reason why most people think the pirate community are a bunch of spoiled, ignorant assholes. Of course, most of you are.

    • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

       No, the rationale is “You’re asking us, as a mere conduit, to intervene on activities you allege to be infringing on your behalf. Because we must take due diligence to ensure your allegation is valid there will be an admin charge associated with your claim.”

      It’s the same reason why it’s reasonable for public authorities to charge for DPA or FOIA queries.

    • Anonymous

      Nice attempt at trolling there.

      No, I believe that what the “common carriers” are saying that they are willing to intervene in what a third party does only if they are getting paid for that service.

      Which makes sense in any paradigm where you can in similar fashion not ask the guy who built the road to also sit and catch speeders on his own time.

  • Wolfie

    Absolutely.. Banks charge for ATM transactions..Companies charge to process online payments.. why shouldn’t a torrent site be compenstaed for thier time ? I like it…

  • Halluci-Nate-ing

    Am I Halluci-Nate-ing or do we have the old disqus format back?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FCNK7C55CBUYFVSC5LNWKB322E Buglord

    hmm.. let’s do their math again: 50$ to gain over 50M$… sounds like a good deal to me.

  • PRIVACY is priceless to me

    1) property is theft, intellectual property is genocide
    2) U$ laws don’t apply ANYWHERE ELSE
    3) DMCA is raping the 1st amendment in the ass
    4) so yes the copyright trolls should pay because THEY ARE THE BAD GUYS

  • Pingback: Torrent News » Should Websites Charge A Fee To Process Copyright Takedowns?

  • Kkk_

    woo, the old disqus is back! 4 ow long?

  • Pingback: Aktuelles 30. Mai 2012

  • http://twitter.com/HoodWinifred HoodWinifred

    like Philip said I didn’t know that a student can profit $4248 in 1 month on the computer. have you read this web page  (Click on menu Home more information)  http://goo.gl/gNBGz  

  • :D

    $150,000 to process a copyright takedown sounds about right.

  • Reizar.com

    here, i’ve got the answer. YES…. HELL YES.

  • Asashii

    yes share for freedom not for profit i agree and always have

  • Grim107

    As a pirate, I’m not going to say that these companies don’t have a right to take down what is rightfully theirs. However, so much material is wrongfully removed, and it’s unfair to everyone. Just yesterday, I went into my email to download a long-lost document. The person who sent it to me had uploaded it to Megaupload. Even though this document didn’t infringe on anyone’s rights, I am not able to get a copy of it now, and likely won’t ever be able to again.

    I say that in all fairness, the companies should be charged only for takedown requests that are just wrong.

  • Guest

    “As a pirate, I’m not going to say that these companies don’t have a right to take down what is rightfully theirs.”
    Strange contradiction. Either you are a copyright  shill posing as pirate, or your simply a freetard defending copyright. If you really are a pirate, you don’t recognize the notion of IP. If you support IP, you can’t be a pirate with being hypocritical. So what is it? If mere binary sequences of bits can bbelong to someone i.e a corporation, piracy is not defensible, and your claim to be a pirate falls flat.

    • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

      If you’re going to nitpick, ‘pirates’ and ‘software piracy’ doesn’t exist. It’s terminology made up by the content industry for propaganda purposes.

      • Pirate

        “Pirates” doesn’t exist, because it’s terminology made up by content industry? You, sir, need to go back to school.

        • http://twitter.com/#!/Topperfalkon Topperfalkon

          My bad, I phrased that poorly. It was created by the content industry to falsely associate copyright infringers with the 17th century villains (or today’s Somalian equivalent) sailing the high seas raping and pillaging.

          Copying is not quite so heinous, in fact most people would commend sharing stuff.

  • http://www.dishtvoffer.com/ Felicia Corrine

    Why not? It is good to levy some charge for the copyrighted content.

  • Pingback: Should Websites Charge A Fee To Process Copyright Takedowns? | Mediafire Search Engine

  • Anonymous

    YES !

    Charge them.

    1.2 million links to take down loosely translates to around 830 hours of time @ 3 secs per incident.

    This is either 1 person working 24 hours per day 34 days per month (not feasible) or creates 3 Full Time Jobs (paying them around 30k/ year) just to keep pace w/ that load.

    Extra $90,000 just to cover salary – not including tax / insurance matching among any other benefits that are given to FT employees.

  • Nothanks

    Correct me if Im wrong but “Sites may charge if their business is not based on copyright
    infringements and they are not already earning money from the
    illegitimate usage of infringing material,” is more relevant to Takedown Piracy than H33T?

  • Pingback: Game of Thrones Crowned Most Pirated TV-Show of the Season – TorrentFreak | Game of Thrones Blog

  • Pingback: Fees To Process Copyright Takedowns? - Software Piracy Focus

  • AliasUndercover

    The real question is, “Would the lawyers charge if the shoe was on the other foot?” Since the answer is “Yes”, they should DEFINITELY charge a fee. 

  • BTGuard - BitTorrent Anonymously

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