The Shareaza Conspiracy In a Nutshell
Written by enigmax on March 13, 2008The hijacking of Shareaza.com is a complex story with many twists and turns. Here is the story of Shareaza from its open source GPL roots, to the hostile takeover and where the project is today, directly from those at the heart of the news – the real Shareaza community. The fight for Shareaza has only just begun.
Beginnings Are a Good Place To Start
In mid 2002, a lone programmer by the name of Micheal Stokes released the first version of a Gnutella client he had written, dubbed “Shareaza”. Over the next two years Micheal added to his client and coded in support for the eDonkey 2000 network, BitTorrent and a rewritten Gnutella-based protocol which he named Gnutella2. Shareaza gradually became more and more popular and Mike started to receive several job offers based on the strength of his work on Shareaza. He eventually decided that continuing to work on a p2p application in an increasingly hostile legal climate was too risky, but he did the honorable thing and released the Shareaza source code under the GNU GPLv2 on June 1, 2004 (which coincided with the release of Shareaza V 2.0).
Mike stopped working on Shareaza and went on to develop a new p2p-based streaming radio project named Mercora. As part of distancing himself from Shareaza, he transfered the shareaza.com domain to one of his old alpha testers named Jon Nilson, who continued to administer the domain until late 2007.
The French (RIAA) Connection
In late 2007 the Shareaza website went down for several weeks, but eventually came back online. Not long after that, the Shareaza.com domain began pointing to a different website which several sharp-eyed community members recognized as identical to shareazaweb.com, a known scam site purporting to offer users “legal p2p downloads”. It emerged that Jon Nilson had been forced to relinquish control of the domain as part of a settlement with La Societe Des Producteurs De Phonogrammes En France (the French version of the RIAA). Jon’s name was the only one connected with Shareaza that the SPPF could find and due to Shareaza’s popularity in France he had been named in a lawsuit along with Azureus and Morpheus. See here for more.
A Dump for Ill-Gotten Gains
Members of the Shareaza community managed to track the new “owners” of the Shareaza.com domain to MusicLab LLC, based in New York. MusicLab now distribute the “new and legal” iMesh p2p client after the original Gnutella-based iMesh developers were sued by the RIAA, and forced to settle for $4.1 million with a promise to turn their app into a paid download service. A similar legal fate befell another popular Gnutella application called Bearshare which was then rolled into the RIAA-approved iMesh. Nobody has managed to ascertain whether the original iMesh developers are still involved, but the merging of Bearshare seems to indicate that MusicLab is a vehicle used by the recording industry to dump assets acquired through lawsuits into.
It would seem that since Shareaza is developed by anonymous group of individuals and organized via “ad-hocracy”, there was no company to sue, so stealth tactics were employed against the weakest link in the chain: Jon Nilson. iMesh, Bearshare and the fake Shareaza being distributed from Shareaza.com are all the same application with appropriate re-branding.
Threats of C&D
As you can imagine, the members of the Shareaza community were rather upset about all of this and set up a new website with user forums. After two users made some offhand remarks about a distributed denial of service attack against the servers in Israel where the hijacked Shareaza.com site is located, our forum administrator received an email from one Jeffrey A. Kimmel of Meister Seelig & Fein, in his capacity as a representative of Discordia Ltd, the new new “owners” of Shareaza.
Mr Kimmel stated that DDoS attacks are illegal and any further talk by “users [who] begin to promote the destruction of a legitimate business” would result in Discordia Ltd “tak[ing] all necessary action to vigorously and relentlessly protect its rights.” He went on to state that “if this action is not immediately taken and, as result, our client’s business is harmed, we will not only pursue, locate and hold fully responsible each and every one of those who have implemented this, or any similar DoS, but also those responsible for maintaining your site and the forums.”
The posts in question had actually been taken down by forum moderators already (as per forum rules on objectionable content), however this email was cause for great concern: not only were the domain hijackers starting to create a series of shell companies to avoid being identified, but they had engaged lawyers to monitor our forums and threaten anyone making disparaging statements about them.
(Full text here)
A Tangled Web
More research by community members revealed that Discordia Ltd is registered in Cyprus, possibly owned by MusicLab but at arm’s length to avoid as much fallout as possible. Meister Seelig & Fein’s Kimmel also appears to have a long history of dealings with the recording industry, notably in the participation of the iMesh and Bearshare lawsuits and an interesting Amicus Curiae brief in the MGM vs Grokster which details how the new iMesh software has all the answers to stopping piracy and creating a wonderful legal download service.
Making The Takeover Official
In what is possibly the most audacious step so far, Discordia Ltd filed for a trademark on “Shareaza” with the USPTO on January 10, 2008. (Link)
If granted, our use of the Shareaza name will immediately infringe upon Discordia Ltd’s official trademark and we will doubtless be subject to legal action until we stop any infringing action i.e. we rename the project, remove all references to “Shareaza” and forget about the whole thing.
The Danger Posed To Open Source Software
Unless we are able to prevent the trademark being granted and regain control of the domain, our project will die. It really is as simple as that. Seven-odd years worth of brand recognition as “Open Source, Spyware, Malware and Advertising Free” will disappear and although we can (and have) dealt with “clones” who take our OS code base, add some spyware and release a “new” client as their own (breaking the GPLv2 in the process by not releasing the source) there is no possible way that we can survive having our identity stolen like this. Unlike a run-of-the-mill copyright violation, we are going to be permanently deprived of something. Our code is open to whoever wants to see it, we charge no money for the use of the program; the only thing of value that we have is the name and recognition that goes with it. The worst of it all is that this “software identity theft” could signal the beginning of hostile corporate takeovers of common property – the fact that we are in this predicament proves it to some extent.
What we need to know is if the people who stood up for an open culture by hacking copyright law will help protect that culture where it comes to trademarks and halting the advancement of encroaching corporate interests. If “common law” trademarks can’t be protected there is a very real danger that what happened to us will happen again and again and again. Many of us who work on the Shareaza project can foresee things becoming so that people will stop bothering to work on OS projects: open source software is, by it’s nature, more useful that closed source software and the more useful something is, the more popular it becomes…and then someone with expensive lawyers will come along and take it all away from the people who actually created it.
We recently asked for donations from our users for a legal defense fund and (very) quickly raised $2000. In our public thank you letter we wrote the following:
“There is one fundamental right that should never be in dispute: the right to be recognized as a creator. This moral right transcends arguments on whether copyright should last for 50 years or a hundred, whether software should be patentable or not, or even what a fair price price for an MP3 file is. Being able to say to the world “I made this” and be acknowledged for it is, for many people, the only reward they receive for their work. To deny that right is an insult to the creative forces flowing through every writer, performer, musician, actor and programmer who brings their work to the world.”
We have a section dedicated to this whole situation on our new forums which includes full details of all the events that have taken place so far.
Any help you are able to provide would be very, very gratefully accepted. Any advice, introductions or referrals to others who may be able to help us will be a great help.
Kind regards,
Shareaza Community
Just in case you missed the earlier link, you can donate to the Shareaza fighting fund here
Previously: Pirate Bay to Hollywood: Open your Own Torrent Site
Next: MTV Uses P2P Data for Playlist Selection
99 Responses
I wish shareaza good luck trying to get their domain back..
Yea, you really fucked up with the domain thing in the first place… should have never come down to losing that domain
Same here
Live by the sword, die by the sword.
I love p2p, but shit, you play the game and sometimes you’re gonna get burned. Do I feel sorry for Shareaza? Not really. They intentionally made a tool used to infringe on copyrights, now their shit got stolen.
Too bad, so sad…
I’m still appalled by what these people have done. It seems so very very wrong.
I’m sure that, if you can prove that you had the name first, you should be able to stop this from doing any kind of permanent damage.
Sourceforge should have a list of when you were formed.
Of course, the fact that they’re planning on copyrighting the name could lead to some difficulties. Try contacting the EFF.
Good luck to you.
[quote comment="310781"]Live by the sword, die by the sword.
I love p2p, but shit, you play the game and sometimes you’re gonna get burned. Do I feel sorry for Shareaza? Not really. They intentionally made a tool used to infringe on copyrights, now their shit got stolen.
Too bad, so sad…[/quote]
Shareaza’s efforts have always been to endorse people to download and upload free material!
There is this add-on for Shareaza (http://tinyurl.com/22dkku) which provides legal information about copyrighted files, for which are plans to integrate more deeply.
Anyway, what do you do on this blog if you dislike copyright infringement, which is seen legal by many people in here.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UA7vNVuPbn8
Fuck em both really who gives a shit. It’s all ruined now.
For the record there’s no need to worry since Shareaza is shit anyways…
Well, you have admit it’s kinda ironic that the guy/project who selfishly took advantage of the Gnutella “trademark” and the network itself by labelling an incompatible protocol “Gnutella 2″ that would bootstrap over Gnutella are now screwed by a company labelling their product ShareazaV4. Maybe it’s not so bad that they take a nip of their own poison. It’s all about a karma. What goes around, comes around.
Two Points:
1. Something similar is happening to utorrent. Check out http://www.youtorent.com/ (a mispelled version of youtorrent)
It also offers “legal p2p” …for a price.
2. Advice for software designers: if you want to keep the record labels for stealing your trademark, name your program something offensive like “FuckRIAA 2.0″
Anyways, I can’t believe the labels are going this far to stop p2p. They are thugs! Fuck em!
People give too much of a shit about this whole princable and moral thing, that DoS attack was the best idea they had.
Its open source, sombody release it silently, then it will get on a website like this (SOMBODY RELEASES DOS SHAREZA VERSION!) and then everybody downloads it, fucks them up the ass, we win, they loose, there lawyers run around and cicles and jack eachother off, the end.
it’s not a lawyer discordia have, it’s a lol-yer
Damn, this sucks. I hope this gets taken care of appopriately by the law.
And to the people saying “who cares, shareaza sucks”… Morons, that isn’t the point here. I haven’t used shareaza ever, and I doubt I ever will, but this still sucks!
[quote comment="310792"][quote comment="310781"]Live by the sword, die by the sword.
I love p2p, but shit, you play the game and sometimes you’re gonna get burned. Do I feel sorry for Shareaza? Not really. They intentionally made a tool used to infringe on copyrights, now their shit got stolen.
Too bad, so sad…[/quote]
Shareaza’s efforts have always been to endorse people to download and upload free material!
There is this add-on for Shareaza (http://tinyurl.com/22dkku) which provides legal information about copyrighted files, for which are plans to integrate more deeply.
Anyway, what do you do on this blog if you dislike copyright infringement, which is seen legal by many people in here.[/quote]
I never said I have anything against copyright infringment. What I am saying is, that file-sharing is a risky business. Hell, even I might get sued for sharing. But I accept that as a risk, and TBH, I wouldn’t bitch about it if I did get caught.
It’s a game we all play. Some of us win, some of us lose. Shareaza lost.
It goes deeper than the whole file sharing issue, as it’s only illegal if you’re transferring copyrighted materials. (You do the same thing every day looking at web pages.. just a different protocl)
It’s about an organization with a lot of money that’s able to take software that’s covered by the GPL or other similar licenses, and in effect, steal it and turn around and sue the creators.
If this kind of “legalized theft” is allowed by the courts, whats to stop, just for example, Microsoft stealing Linux, then turning around and suing everyone involved? Any company with a large enough bankroll that feels threatened by Open Source is pretty much getting the green light to do what they want, no matter who they hurt.
Want to know why the RIAA and MPAA hasn’t been investigated and charged for racketeering and extortion, among their other crimes? Lots of money. These guys make the Mafia look like amateurs. Instead of killing you, they crush you in court and give themselves a pat on the back for figuring out new ways to bypass the law in their advantage.
It is not just about Shareaza here anymore dumbass. This article shows how corporate could easily steal some open source software to gain profit nowadays..
ddos is weak, old, easy, pathetic, and very short lived.
hit them where it hurts, take their money.
since that’s locked away in vaults, take the next best thing; their data.
if data isnt worth anything, why is every company on the net scrambling to get every bit of info they can on you? and thats just for marketing, which is peanuts-data.
if data isnt worth anything, why do companies make it so hard for outsiders to access (read, not even write) their internal data?
ddos is childs play.
downloading their entire data banks is kicking them in the balls.
beating them to death is illegal.
be a good citizen.
kick them in the balls.
I’m surprised by the number of comments here that hint at being OK with the media companies forcefully taking control of legitimate works, especially given it revolves around the open-source Shareaza application that has done a lot for the file-sharing scene over the years.
You people really suck. Just whose side are you on?
I’ve little understanding of the legal aspects of Creative Commons and such, but I’d be surprised if an organisation like the EFF wern’t particularly interested in this.
I’m repeating myself, but again:
Sounds pretty much like a prime case for the EFF or the Software Freedom Law Center (http://www.softwarefreedom.org/).
The later recently supported the Busybox project successfully against GPL-infringing “High-Gain Antennas” company.
Tbe real Shareaza staff should contact them ASAP instead of betting on their legal defense fund, which probably won’t hold as much money as these asstunnels have at their disposal.
What exactly has Shareaza done for the file-sharing scene? Tell me just one thing. First they leeched of Gnutella, then eDonkey, then BitTorrent. The support for everything but their redundant G2 is lacking, outdated, half-assed. There are excellent alternatives for each network that do a much better job.
This has nothing to do with what Discordia is doing but if you feel the need to bring this up, you better your facts straight.
The smell of industry trolls is heavy in the air here, misleading comments designed to divide and cause apathy are all I,m reading.
A wise man would download Shareaza from old version.com or somewhere and get the fake upgrade made by this RIAA front company and then report them to the FCC for their misleading conduct and the shabby attempt to install spyware, those are reasons for a federal investigation last time I read the news.
http://www.news.com/Feds-stay-strong-on-spyware-case/2100-7348_3-6037277.html
The law is clear.
[quote comment="310847"][quote comment="310792"][quote comment="310781"]Live by the sword, die by the sword.
I love p2p, but shit, you play the game and sometimes you’re gonna get burned. Do I feel sorry for Shareaza? Not really. They intentionally made a tool used to infringe on copyrights, now their shit got stolen.
Too bad, so sad…[/quote]
Shareaza’s efforts have always been to endorse people to download and upload free material!
There is this add-on for Shareaza (http://tinyurl.com/22dkku) which provides legal information about copyrighted files, for which are plans to integrate more deeply.
Anyway, what do you do on this blog if you dislike copyright infringement, which is seen legal by many people in here.[/quote]
I never said I have anything against copyright infringment. What I am saying is, that file-sharing is a risky business. Hell, even I might get sued for sharing. But I accept that as a risk, and TBH, I wouldn’t bitch about it if I did get caught.
It’s a game we all play. Some of us win, some of us lose. Shareaza lost.[/quote]
good point
there is no honor among thieves
[quote comment="310806"]For the record there’s no need to worry since Shareaza is shit anyways…[/quote]
doesn’t matter. it’s the idea that companies are taking these kinds of actions. this is the kind of things – and attitudes – that ruin p2p.
I love it when you theiving people (lack of a better term) are in a state of confusion and disgust! lol
http://fakesteveballmer.blogspot.com
Well if this can happen it could also happen to torrent sites, who would then be unable to use their own name henceforth.
How could they legally get away with stealing it if taken to court?
Shareaza (the real) should sue them or at least present counter-suits.
And why would anyone use it for “legal” downloads anymore and buy from thieves and swindlers?
I mean, whatever you pay them would be to support their thieving ways, not for the artists or for paying royalties.
And these are in the music industry and it’s all with their knowledge and approval.
[quote comment="310921"]The smell of industry trolls is heavy in the air here, misleading comments designed to divide and cause apathy are all I,m reading.
A wise man would download Shareaza from old version.com or somewhere and get the fake upgrade made by this RIAA front company and then report them to the FCC for their misleading conduct and the shabby attempt to install spyware, those are reasons for a federal investigation last time I read the news.
http://www.news.com/Feds-stay-strong-on-spyware-case/2100-7348_3-6037277.html
The law is clear.[/quote]
Agreed. Hang ‘em high. The lot of them
This thread smells of rotting fish. Something obviously is attracting them.
[quote comment="310811"]
[...]
1. Something similar is happening to utorrent. Check out http://www.youtorent.com/ (a mispelled version of youtorrent)
It also offers “legal p2p” …for a price. [/quote]
“youtorent.com” redirects to realmusicnow.com, which is one of (too) many links to download sites for this shite (mp3helpdesk.com, mp3musichq.com, etc., etc.).
Looks like they’re trying to steal “Ares” copyright too – another P2P app. Prolly many others.
Much as I think Bram’s a bit of a twat, now he has the backing of ‘real’ money, he ought to set the hounds onto these baboons…
Some of you people just don’t get it. You would probably use another client if your favorite is taken over by the MAFIAA and then reason that you would have switched anyway or something. P2P works only because there are many of us. Not just for technical reasons. You’ll be a lonely and vulnerable target when you continue to be stupid. Get a grip on yourself and switch on your brain.
If you are afraid to consider what it means when corporates take over open source then you are right. But it doesn’t help to find excuses so that you don’t feel too bad. Better you shit your pants right now when no one is watching and rethink your world view. If you don’t stand up for others no one will stick by you.
Start reading here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule
How about creating a legal defense fund? Not just for the Shareaza case.
It would give those who expose themselves for the common good a certain peace of mind to continue to be creative. Also, it wouldn’t force potential donators to rush to help in an emergency, when they bristle with anger. They could do it in a moment when they feel like it.
The fund could be used for the first legal case that has a chance to provide a precedent for free software and/or for file sharing. Alone the 2.5 million registered users on TPB could come up with 2.5 million quid if everyone donated a dollar. That would pay for a knowledgeable and committed lawer, I suppose.
A dollar spent for a much better cause then for any corporate mp3 store.
Die Shareaza.
[quote comment="310847"][quote comment="310792"][quote comment="310781"]Live by the sword, die by the sword.
I love p2p, but shit, you play the game and sometimes you’re gonna get burned. Do I feel sorry for Shareaza? Not really. They intentionally made a tool used to infringe on copyrights, now their shit got stolen.
Too bad, so sad…[/quote]
Shareaza’s efforts have always been to endorse people to download and upload free material!
There is this add-on for Shareaza (http://tinyurl.com/22dkku) which provides legal information about copyrighted files, for which are plans to integrate more deeply.
Anyway, what do you do on this blog if you dislike copyright infringement, which is seen legal by many people in here.[/quote]
I never said I have anything against copyright infringment. What I am saying is, that file-sharing is a risky business. Hell, even I might get sued for sharing. But I accept that as a risk, and TBH, I wouldn’t bitch about it if I did get caught.
It’s a game we all play. Some of us win, some of us lose. Shareaza lost.[/quote]
But it is only risking if you are using it to infringe copyright.
There’s a site and project (http://gpl-violations.org/) that deals with GPL copyleft infringements. These are usually manufacturers that use Linux in embedded systems and are too greedy, too stupid or too ignorant to provide the source code for their firmware. Maybe that project has some advise about the GPL violation aspect in the Shareaza case.
Discordia L.T.D. = Brown Note.
[quote comment="310781"]Live by the sword, die by the sword.
I love p2p, but shit, you play the game and sometimes you’re gonna get burned. Do I feel sorry for Shareaza? Not really. They intentionally made a tool used to infringe on copyrights, now their shit got stolen.
Too bad, so sad…[/quote]
If you’re somehow drawing a parallel between filesharing, and the LITERAL theft and subsequent hostile takeover of an opensource software project by a band of hijackers from the French recording industry, then your brainpower is on par with an amoeba.
There’s a difference between downloading a copywritten MP3, and stealing the actual OWNERSHIP of a creative work out from under its own maker(s), then pawning that work off as your own.
The difference apparently escapes you, along with every other stooge that tries to frame this as a case of ‘what goes around comes around’.
What I don’t get in this instance is why everybody is defending shareaza, it’s a shit application which leeches off good working networks.
In this particular instance, I don’t really have an objection with them getting their asses handed to them. Come back when they start with a protocol/app which isn’t shit.
why is STMusic gone?
To all the shareaza haters, this is not about the client, its about DAMN CORPORATE ABUSE. Your favorite p2p app could be next.
By the way, Discordia, we know you are spamming torrentfreak. Such haxxor skills, spamming a open-comment site… perhaps that is the best you can do when you are not suing.
[quote comment="311133"]What I don’t get in this instance is why everybody is defending shareaza…..Come back when they start with a protocol/app which isn’t shit.[/quote]
part1: it is OPEN source and FREE project. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPL
part2: if its 20kb software that can just say HI and nothing else, when im opening it, its worth fighting to be recognited, and shared free. its not about software.
God damn all idiots who are saying that “LOLOL SHAREAZA SUCKS I DUN CARE IF IT GETS STOLEN LOL :)” or “LOL THEY MADE A PROGRAM TO STEAL STUFF AND NOW THEY GOT THEIR STUFF STOLEN, TOO BAD”
Is it really so hard to see that making a program for filesharing (which is not btw illegal but it isn’t the point here) or downloading and uploading copyrighted material is VERY different from stealing someone’s work and claiming it as your own and making money with it.
That’s like if I made free music, uploaded it to the Internet, someone dl’d it and started selling it with his own name.
I’d have nothing against someone distributing my music without music if they’d still mention that it is indeed a creative work of mine. Even if I tried to originally sell it myself. And yes I know it’s easy to say that when I’m not really selling any creative works of mine.
[quote comment="311050"]How about creating a legal defense fund?[/quote]
EFF.ORG
They could use your money.
410, in this instance, I can’t really seem to care that they shut down this particular client, as I said, come back and tell me to be outraged when they shut down a client that’s actually ADDING to the scene instead of leeching off it.
grrrr.. 410 = 40
@blupp
What the fuck u talking about?
Shareaza is completely screwed and i am not looking forward to a Walmart brand bit torrent client
i think we should definitely ddos shareaza.com.
are you listening discordia?
figures it’s defended by an israeli law firm, they’re experts at legal theft – just look at the gaza wall and the gradual shrinkage of palestine in the past 60 years. actually that’s not legal, but you know what i mean. i’m not being anti-semetic here, just factual, and a bit fecicious.
[quote comment="311233"]410, in this instance, I can’t really seem to care that they shut down this particular client, as I said, come back and tell me to be outraged when they shut down a client that’s actually ADDING to the scene instead of leeching off it.[/quote]
Nobody “shut down” Shareaza. Rub your two braincells together and try again.
FYI, Cletus, unless you enjoy the idea that a corporation can swoop down out of nowhere, usurp the ownership of open source freeware, violate the GPL by turning it into closed-source payware, and then turn around and threaten its original creators with legal action, I suggest extracting your head from you ass.
[quote comment="310847"][quote comment="310792"][quote comment="310781"]Live by the sword, die by the sword.
I love p2p, but shit, you play the game and sometimes you’re gonna get burned. Do I feel sorry for Shareaza? Not really. They intentionally made a tool used to infringe on copyrights, now their shit got stolen.
Too bad, so sad…[/quote]
Shareaza’s efforts have always been to endorse people to download and upload free material!
There is this add-on for Shareaza (http://tinyurl.com/22dkku) which provides legal information about copyrighted files, for which are plans to integrate more deeply.
Anyway, what do you do on this blog if you dislike copyright infringement, which is seen legal by many people in here.[/quote]
I never said I have anything against copyright infringment. What I am saying is, that file-sharing is a risky business. Hell, even I might get sued for sharing. But I accept that as a risk, and TBH, I wouldn’t bitch about it if I did get caught.
It’s a game we all play. Some of us win, some of us lose. Shareaza lost.[/quote]
Your statement is inherently misleading and incorrect. Facilitation of the means to do file sharing is no more risky than a car manufacturers risk of making a car that someone will use as a getaway vehicle in a robbery, or kill a kid at a bus stop while driving drunk, the resolve relies on the driver not violating the working rules of the road, not the other way around. There is no wrong doing nor dangerous play on behalf of the Shareaza team, the wrong doing and dangerous play (dangerous the freedom no less) is all in the hands of discordia, you shouldn’t feel sympathetic towards Shareaza you should feel anger, rage, and discontent with the legal system being unsupportive of the true owners of the rights to name. Try and better understand the problems before you post and become a helper to the problem at hand.
It’s not a good idea to support “The Shareaza Conspiracy In a Nutshell” as a conspiracy theory on stirrdup. It calls into question the facts, when it’s termed and sorted as conspiracy theory alongside 9/11 or Illuminati stories. Media that don’t deal with open source or file sharing specifically wouldn’t even look at it. This reduces the chance that the general public takes note of it and starts questioning illegal corporate tactics.
The one who posted this article there may not know better or doesn’t care. It seems that he’s collecting texts that have the “conspiracy” keyword in common, nothing else.
Very likely, this move is a piece of a puzzle in the tactics of those who want to destroy Shareaza. Put a story into the wrong context and there you are: people start to doubt it.
If you want to spread this story, without giving it a twist, link to it from unbiased sites with lots of readers.
[quote comment="311337"]It’s not a good idea to support “The Shareaza Conspiracy In a Nutshell” as a conspiracy theory on stirrdup. It calls into question the facts, when it’s termed and sorted as conspiracy theory alongside 9/11 or Illuminati stories. Media that don’t deal with open source or file sharing specifically wouldn’t even look at it. This reduces the chance that the general public takes note of it and starts questioning illegal corporate tactics.
The one who posted this article there may not know better or doesn’t care. It seems that he’s collecting texts that have the “conspiracy” keyword in common, nothing else.
Very likely, this move is a piece of a puzzle in the tactics of those who want to destroy Shareaza. Put a story into the wrong context and there you are: people start to doubt it.
If you want to spread this story, without giving it a twist, link to it from unbiased sites with lots of readers.[/quote]
Definition of Conspiracy: a group of conspirators banded together to achieve some harmful or illegal purpose. Discordia, MusicLab, RIAA, et al. The band of Conspirators; Imesh, Bearshare, Shareaza, the rights of the true owners of the aforementioned…. The victims of the harmful purpose. Please sir, explain, how is this a misuse of this word’s definition, in fact this is the proper use. 9/11 foil hattery and other nut job ideals is simply fringe foolery, but do not for one second assume that the attack against legitimate open source projects is in fact NOT a conspiracy. Conspiracies don’t have the requisite of being unbeknownst as fact. It is not necessary, as is the case with the 9/11 junk , that it be unprovable with all the facts being shrouded in apparent mistruth and subversion. This is a pretty damn straight forward case of conspiracy, so please. learn before you post.
Just to clear some confusion.
a) Shareaza, like all P2P software, is not automatically an instrument of crime, no more that a gun is. It’s simply the tool. What constitutes a crime is a decision made collectively by a society. File sharing of copyrighted material can be made legal or illegal through legislation. Personally I think the real crime is buying votes of legislators to extend copyright beyond what is necessary to obtain a return on the initial investment. The other crime is to try to create artificial scarcity (e.g., DeBeers diamond cartel) of a practically infinite resource (i.e., digital copies) in order to monetize that resource. Both of these crimes goes against the greater societal good. I’m not saying individual content producers should not be compensated for their work. I am saying that trying to get compensation through the direct sale of digital copies is not sustainable long term without getting the cooperation of the consumer which is getting harder and harder to do. The consumer is only willing to buy something tangible (e.g., a hard copy), something unique (e.g, live performance, autographed/collectible version), or for an easy-to-use distribution service (e.g. Rhapsody, iTunes, Amazon).
b) No code was stolen. Shareaza is GPL’d open source software. By definition, it can’t be stolen. (The software can be forked, and the fork can be in violation of the GPL, but that’s as close to “stealing” as you can get, at which point there is legal recourse to deal with that event.) The software being distributed via the shareaza.com site is a Shareaza-branded iMesh client. It is not Shareaza.
c) The shareaza.com domain was legally but unethically obtained. The previous domain holder, Jim Nilson, was forced to relinquish (sell?) the domain under duress.
d) The current owners of the shareaza.com domain, Discordia, as part of their coup, have now filed for a US trademark. Right now the Shareaza tradmark only has common law status having been in use for 7 years by the creators of Shareaza. There is a good possibility given the poor background checks the USPTO conducts, that the trademark will be awarded to Discordia simply because they obtained the domain. The USPTO may not discover or even recognize that the brand has been used and is still in use by the Shareaza developers.
Now there were many places where this problem could have been prevented, but that’s 20/20 hindsight. Another party, perhaps a developer, could have been given the domain instead of Jon Nilson. Jon Nilson could have surrendered the domain to a developer rather than to Discordia. The developers could have registered for a trademark instead of depending on common law status and the moment when the domain changed hands, they could have sued to have it returned to them.
Now, IANAL but this seems to me a very easy case to win. All that needs to be done is for the Shareaza developers to file an injunction against Discordia’s trademark filing. Have their unregistered trademark legally recognized (easy: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.shareaza.com) or register it themselves. Once they have ownership of the trademark legally recognized, they can then sue to get the domain back thanks to cybersquatting laws.
The problem is not so much whether Shareaza is worth protecting. What’s important is to prevent a precedent to be set. You do not want corporations to be able to usurp brands. Hopefully, the EFF would be willing to take the case.
[quote comment="311336"][quote comment="310847"][quote comment="310792"][quote comment="310781"]Live by the sword, die by the sword.
I love p2p, but shit, you play the game and sometimes you’re gonna get burned. Do I feel sorry for Shareaza? Not really. They intentionally made a tool used to infringe on copyrights, now their shit got stolen.
Too bad, so sad…[/quote]
Shareaza’s efforts have always been to endorse people to download and upload free material!
There is this add-on for Shareaza (http://tinyurl.com/22dkku) which provides legal information about copyrighted files, for which are plans to integrate more deeply.
Anyway, what do you do on this blog if you dislike copyright infringement, which is seen legal by many people in here.[/quote]
I never said I have anything against copyright infringment. What I am saying is, that file-sharing is a risky business. Hell, even I might get sued for sharing. But I accept that as a risk, and TBH, I wouldn’t bitch about it if I did get caught.
It’s a game we all play. Some of us win, some of us lose. Shareaza lost.[/quote]
Your statement is inherently misleading and incorrect. Facilitation of the means to do file sharing is no more risky than a car manufacturers risk of making a car that someone will use as a getaway vehicle in a robbery, or kill a kid at a bus stop while driving drunk, the resolve relies on the driver not violating the working rules of the road, not the other way around. There is no wrong doing nor dangerous play on behalf of the Shareaza team, the wrong doing and dangerous play (dangerous the freedom no less) is all in the hands of discordia, you shouldn’t feel sympathetic towards Shareaza you should feel anger, rage, and discontent with the legal system being unsupportive of the true owners of the rights to name. Try and better understand the problems before you post and become a helper to the problem at hand.[/quote]
stop kidding yourself. the makers of shareaza, emule etc. and the runners of torrent sites know *exactly* what they are doing, they know they are facilitating copyright theft and they always give the same kind of defence you just have.
let’s put it this way, do you only download legal free material from torrent sites/shareaza? no of course you don’t, none of us do. we’re all pirates, just face it.
I learned after I posted. I have to be more precise. I agree with your assessment of the situation. My point is, that there is a difference between _conspiracy_ like this story here and _conspiracy theories_ like those
> 9/11 foil hattery and other nut job ideals …
as you put it.
I would like to stress that make something taste bad is a successful way to keep somebody from trying it. You know perfectly well how the majority of the public thinks about 9/11. If “The Shareaza Conspiracy In a Nutshell” is served together with a 9/11 _conspiracy theory_ the majority will just ignore it or believe it
> … is simply fringe foolery …
[quote comment="311352"][quote comment="311336"][quote comment="310847"][quote comment="310792"][quote comment="310781"]Live by the sword, die by the sword.
I love p2p, but shit, you play the game and sometimes you’re gonna get burned. Do I feel sorry for Shareaza? Not really. They intentionally made a tool used to infringe on copyrights, now their shit got stolen.
Too bad, so sad…[/quote]
Shareaza’s efforts have always been to endorse people to download and upload free material!
There is this add-on for Shareaza (http://tinyurl.com/22dkku) which provides legal information about copyrighted files, for which are plans to integrate more deeply.
Anyway, what do you do on this blog if you dislike copyright infringement, which is seen legal by many people in here.[/quote]
I never said I have anything against copyright infringment. What I am saying is, that file-sharing is a risky business. Hell, even I might get sued for sharing. But I accept that as a risk, and TBH, I wouldn’t bitch about it if I did get caught.
It’s a game we all play. Some of us win, some of us lose. Shareaza lost.[/quote]
Your statement is inherently misleading and incorrect. Facilitation of the means to do file sharing is no more risky than a car manufacturers risk of making a car that someone will use as a getaway vehicle in a robbery, or kill a kid at a bus stop while driving drunk, the resolve relies on the driver not violating the working rules of the road, not the other way around. There is no wrong doing nor dangerous play on behalf of the Shareaza team, the wrong doing and dangerous play (dangerous the freedom no less) is all in the hands of discordia, you shouldn’t feel sympathetic towards Shareaza you should feel anger, rage, and discontent with the legal system being unsupportive of the true owners of the rights to name. Try and better understand the problems before you post and become a helper to the problem at hand.[/quote]
stop kidding yourself. the makers of shareaza, emule etc. and the runners of torrent sites know *exactly* what they are doing, they know they are facilitating copyright theft and they always give the same kind of defence you just have.
let’s put it this way, do you only download legal free material from torrent sites/shareaza? no of course you don’t, none of us do. we’re all pirates, just face it.[/quote]
Get back to work. We have pirates to catch.
They fucked up and got pirated by a bigger ship..its war and sometimes you loose the battle..Get a bigger gun and shoot back, or go home a looser.
but fuck stop bitching about how shareaza got pirated.
[quote comment="311391"]They fucked up and got pirated by a bigger ship..its war and sometimes you loose the battle..Get a bigger gun and shoot back, or go home a looser.
but fuck stop bitching about how shareaza got pirated.[/quote]
There are of course zombies like yourself, that can live off the rotten remains of the living. However, that’s certainly not a world that I intend to inhabit. I will not go home to wait for it.
Change the name of the damn program and get a new URL.
[quote comment="311419"]Change the name of the damn program and get a new URL.[/quote]
Do not change the name of the damn program and do not get a new URL. Stick to common sense and legal standards. If you allow to be bullied around, the bully only gets more confident.
[quote comment="311342"][quote comment="311337"]It’s not a good idea to support “The Shareaza Conspiracy In a Nutshell” as a conspiracy theory on stirrdup. It calls into question the facts, when it’s termed and sorted as conspiracy theory alongside 9/11 or Illuminati stories. Media that don’t deal with open source or file sharing specifically wouldn’t even look at it. This reduces the chance that the general public takes note of it and starts questioning illegal corporate tactics.
The one who posted this article there may not know better or doesn’t care. It seems that he’s collecting texts that have the “conspiracy” keyword in common, nothing else.
Very likely, this move is a piece of a puzzle in the tactics of those who want to destroy Shareaza. Put a story into the wrong context and there you are: people start to doubt it.
If you want to spread this story, without giving it a twist, link to it from unbiased sites with lots of readers.[/quote]
Definition of Conspiracy: a group of conspirators banded together to achieve some harmful or illegal purpose.
Discordia, MusicLab, RIAA, et al. The band of Conspirators; Imesh, Bearshare, Shareaza, the rights of the true owners of the aforementioned…. The victims of the harmful purpose.
Please sir, explain, how is this a misuse of this word’s definition, in fact this is the proper use.
9/11 foil hattery and other nut job ideals is simply fringe foolery, but do not for one second assume that the attack against legitimate open source projects is in fact NOT a conspiracy.
Conspiracies don’t have the requisite of being unbeknownst as fact. It is not necessary, as is the case with the 9/11 junk , that it be unprovable with all the facts being shrouded in apparent mistruth and subversion.
This is a pretty damn straight forward case of conspiracy, so please. learn before you post.[/quote]
Oops, my answer, post 55, didn’t include a proper reference to your post 53.
There is no ‘Discordia’
Discordia = iMesh money/people
iMesh = RIAA money/people
RIAA = Fucking money/people, again
There’s your damn public conspiracy.
Elron and everyone working for them should be thrown into prison because they generate anti-semitism. When I see these bastards doing what they do, you really have to wonder if they aren’t inherently bad. It’s exactly this kind of monetary greed and conspiracies what made people hate them so much that they were willing to commit genocide. It’s certainly not in their genes but there’s definitely something wrong with them. A small, dangerous, powerful group of them uses their religion to cover their real intentions that is total domination and control of the world’s economics. They claim being juice because it makes them kind of immune. Juice are the good guys, right? And if you don’t share their opinion, you’re obviously a NAZI, right?
In reality they are the beast and its name isn’t 666, its name is capitalism. It’s also sort of ironic that the NAZIs were Germans and at the same time most of these evil juice have actually German names.
Its annoying that so many people are taking the tack that “Shareaza sux anyway” or “Karma got’em”.
That BS is completely irrelevant.
The point of the matter is that a corporation was able to wrest control of an open source GPL licensed app , close the source and then are threatening the creators with lawsuits and attempting to legally own the app.
This is a huuuuuge dealio. If they (Music Labs, Discordia or whatever shell the RIAA is wearing today) are granted the trademark rights to this, then watch the dominoes fall.
Next you’ll see stuff like MS snag up Linux, Mozilla, OpenOffice.org.
IPswitch will go after Filezilla, Apple will snake VLC.
Any for profit company with deep enough pockets will simply do a backdoor takeover of their free competition.
We’ll see a return to the days where you either had Adobe, or you simply didn’t open a pdf.
Except now it will be, you either have IE or you don’t browse the web.
You either have Vista, or you don’t have an OS.
The Open Source movement will be murdered, and innovation too.
[quote comment="311489"]Its annoying that so many people are taking the tack that “Shareaza sux anyway” or “Karma got’em”.
That BS is completely irrelevant.
The point of the matter is that a corporation was able to wrest control of an open source GPL licensed app , close the source and then are threatening the creators with lawsuits and attempting to legally own the app.
This is a huuuuuge dealio. If they (Music Labs, Discordia or whatever shell the RIAA is wearing today) are granted the trademark rights to this, then watch the dominoes fall.
Next you’ll see stuff like MS snag up Linux, Mozilla, OpenOffice.org.
IPswitch will go after Filezilla, Apple will snake VLC.
Any for profit company with deep enough pockets will simply do a backdoor takeover of their free competition.
We’ll see a return to the days where you either had Adobe, or you simply didn’t open a pdf.
Except now it will be, you either have IE or you don’t browse the web.
You either have Vista, or you don’t have an OS.
The Open Source movement will be murdered, and innovation too.[/quote]
I agree. That’s why we don’t want to watch the dominoes fall. Not even the first one.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6251278297
Did my research. Looks like that iMesh a$$hat has a lot of “friends,” wonder what they think?
Shawn Fanning AND Bram Cohen sold out to the RIAA too (Napster and BitTorrent). They’re in there, along with “music connections” and “hot chicks.”
[quote comment="311520"][quote comment="311489"]Its annoying that so many people are taking the tack that “Shareaza sux anyway” or “Karma got’em”.
That BS is completely irrelevant.
The point of the matter is that a corporation was able to wrest control of an open source GPL licensed app , close the source and then are threatening the creators with lawsuits and attempting to legally own the app.
This is a huuuuuge dealio. If they (Music Labs, Discordia or whatever shell the RIAA is wearing today) are granted the trademark rights to this, then watch the dominoes fall.
Next you’ll see stuff like MS snag up Linux, Mozilla, OpenOffice.org.
IPswitch will go after Filezilla, Apple will snake VLC.
Any for profit company with deep enough pockets will simply do a backdoor takeover of their free competition.
We’ll see a return to the days where you either had Adobe, or you simply didn’t open a pdf.
Except now it will be, you either have IE or you don’t browse the web.
You either have Vista, or you don’t have an OS.
The Open Source movement will be murdered, and innovation too.[/quote]
I agree. That’s why we don’t want to watch the dominoes fall. Not even the first one.[/quote]
Bingo Shareaza got fukin pirated by a bigger ship. so you need to get a bigger gun and shoot back….or give the fuck up..its simple
They need to turn to the Free Software Foundation (FSF) and the Electronic Frontier Foundation(EFF) who can provide legal defense in this kind of situation. By far, these are your “goto” guys.
“the destruction of a legitimate business”
MusicLab is not a legitimate business but a pakc of parasites and Gangster. They should be eliminated.
If these parasites manage to steal the Shareaza name then there is no justice. No justice, no peace with all the consequences that come with it. If I was a music executive fat lazy greedy and out of shape I will not play this game since I will not be albe to fight.
At the game of “who is the strongest?” Basically all the parasites at Vivendi/universal will be pulverized.
At the game of no justice nobody is safe.
What this parasites at Vivendi Universal industry is doing is totally immoral and illegal. If Justice is no serve and if the Shareaza domain name is not recover then watch out!
Also, it is unfortunate that there is no native linux code. FOSS with *NIX ports will get the support of a massive community. Giants like IBM and Red Hat and the thousands of companies that rely on *NIX have been at least part of the reason why lawsuits against free and open source software has not lost any of the several enormous lawsuits in the last 15 years against them.
#16 pretty much hit the nail on the head for me. Other’s said it again, but #16 said it first.
It’s not about Shareaza, it’s about the bigger picture – that this kind of thing can happen to other software that is legally protected by the GPL. What is happening here is threatening hundreds of other projects that use the same legal protection against just anyone stealing intellectual property, most of them completely disconnected from illegal activity, but yet still threaten closed-source projects by the powers that be (Apache vs IIS, MySQL vs SQL Server, etc.)
The this type of thing is allowed to happen, it’s a foot in the door to bringing open-source to it’s knees, forcing us to live with whatever products the people with the most money give us. Do we really want that? Of course not.
Download some excellent photos for wallpapers:
http://rapidshare.com/files/98182564/excellent_photos.rar
The Apache example is fairly ironic because they STOLED the name from a native American tribe.
http://shareaza.sourceforge.net/
The official home. The domain has gone, the application, the spirit and the source are all still free and available :)
i wish shareaze the best of luck. even though i dont use it anymore :]
[quote comment="312044"]http://shareaza.sourceforge.net/
The official home. The domain has gone, the application, the spirit and the source are all still free and available :)[/quote]
It is good to remain optimistic. However, if there is no domain there will be no newbies to download the source, build the application and join the spirit. They will use a fake domain, fall for a fake application and they will feel good about it. They will feel modern and supportive of independent open source development. They will never know that they have been deceived and they lived happily ever after.
This is just one aspect of corporate strategy to subdue progress that they cannot control. This is why the GPL has been created. To protect innovation from beeing owned by someone. While it is essential to be flexible in the innovation process it is equally essential to be hard-nosed about the principle.
[quote comment="311526"]http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6251278297
Did my research. Looks like that iMesh a$$hat has a lot of “friends,” wonder what they think?
Shawn Fanning AND Bram Cohen sold out to the RIAA too (Napster and BitTorrent). They’re in there, along with “music connections” and “hot chicks.”[/quote]
Good job, good point. Voluntary surveillance can be used for social control of the weak links in the fight against the “music connections”.
The people that have the idea ,make the code and share as Open Source have the POWER.
Refine the code, spread on net the new “brand”, the knowledge, and let the RIAA’s of the world “shooting on the empty space”.
If you are an agile and fast “air target” nothing can hit you.
You can grow and spread faster than they can catch and stop you sure you and the liberty win.
You can grow and spread faster than they can catch and stop you and the liberty win.
you american fuckheads, nothing is worth to you junkie freaks, another product off the shelf and another one to come>usa morons, shareaza was good and it works, the usa criminal companies want to impose their rule of doing the things, and the world won’t bend over to usa shitty ways in any way.usa companies are hungry and greedy for never ending money and brainwashed its own commercially enslaved people to believe in illegality to be be in open source, while criminal extortion of money in usa shops to be legal. the usa shareholders and stockbrokers and bondholders can all drown in their lust and greed of money making once and for all!
its a good omen that the crimninal usa economy is going downhill. because it has been strangling the whole world with scum marketing conjob to rip off the common people of everything that earned the hard way.marketing enterprise studies are another usa hype that stands for how to make money for nothing, while leaving the hard slog to the gullible folks who fall into the trap.the economy of usa is dysfunctional and criminal living off other peoples money saving to prolong its own agony of total decay and collapse for as long as it can go.it will take time but the monster criminal usa fake economy gonna go belly up one day, with the relieve for the whole world.other criminal empires gone that way before and usa aint the exception!
the usa banking system is a criminal enterprise legalised by the criminals in power to exploit and rob the people of their earnings.it was set up illegally and unconstitutionally without the approval of the people in the referendum.as such the banks are mafia like organisations, and the usa people are gutless to stand up and fight the criminals in powers and the stooges all over the place who benefit from it.usa population have been reduced to a commercial product mentality to be used and abused whenever the masters want and need to do it.today i need you . tomorrow i give you the kick, known as hire and fire under the rules of servitude and self-enslavement the american way.
Behind this problem and others like M$ is always the same: the Jews desrespect everybody, all laws, all rights, all people, all children, everybody. Hereagainst is to do something.
Wow, this topic actually brought out the anti-semitic and blame-america-first trolls instead of anti-p2p trolls. (Looks like just a different spoiler tactic.)
#80 That’s not quite right, “Talmon Marco” IS the iMesh president (google), and that’s not his Facebook page. A quick search found the right one.
So, where are the anti-RIAA trolls?
[quote comment="311351"]
Now, IANAL but this seems to me a very easy case to win. All that needs to be done is for the Shareaza developers to file an injunction against Discordia’s trademark filing. Have their unregistered trademark legally recognized (easy: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.shareaza.com) or register it themselves. Once they have ownership of the trademark legally recognized, they can then sue to get the domain back thanks to cybersquatting laws.
The problem is not so much whether Shareaza is worth protecting. What’s important is to prevent a precedent to be set. You do not want corporations to be able to usurp brands. Hopefully, the EFF would be willing to take the case.[/quote]
There you have it, this is the fight we need to fight. This behavior is simply illegal, and should be fought on those merits. Well written.
How about rename it Shareeza.
Being from the US, I just love all this US bashing after a French company performed an illegal takeover of a domain and had an Israeli law firm threaten to sue. I do not disagree with the fact that the big companies are doing their best to take over the country, and that the economy they are trying to set up is unsustainable. I also do not disagree that the courts and politicians in this country are just about all crooked. Where I take exception is worlddog’s comment “and the usa people are gutless to stand up and fight the criminals in powers and the stooges all over the place who benefit from it.” We do stand up and fight against it. And we lose to the crooked courts. And then we stand up and fight again. We lose more than we win and in the end the system will bring itself down due to its unsustainability. Yet still we fight. With a crooked media against us, refusing to cover the stories that are a direct threat to our freedom.
Think like the Mexican Mafia. They never call the police and they hate the law. They take care of their enemies themselves. If you are going to be afraid of the Jews, you deserve what they are planning to give you. They won’t fight, they are cowards.
That’s one of the few cases where a nicely written cease and desist letter (not email!) might do wonders. Obviously one first had to found some sort of representation with the primary developers and user base.
Their takeover of an already esablished trademark (and their “aquiration” of that) together with their misuse of the logo artwork are clearly illegal. (I suspect even by U.S. law.)
[quote comment="310811"]Two Points:
1. Something similar is happening to utorrent. Check out http://www.youtorent.com/ (a mispelled version of youtorrent)
It also offers “legal p2p” …for a price.
2. Advice for software designers: if you want to keep the record labels for stealing your trademark, name your program something offensive like “FuckRIAA 2.0″
Anyways, I can’t believe the labels are going this far to stop p2p. They are thugs! Fuck em![/quote]
It has started.
After the fall of iMesh and Bearshare, they’ve set their sights on Limewire (gnutella/bittorrent)), Shareaza (gnutella/bittorrent) and uTorrent (bittorrent).
This is seriously fucked up.
[quote comment="310908"]What exactly has Shareaza done for the file-sharing scene? Tell me just one thing. First they leeched of Gnutella, then eDonkey, then BitTorrent. The support for everything but their redundant G2 is lacking, outdated, half-assed. There are excellent alternatives for each network that do a much better job.
This has nothing to do with what Discordia is doing but if you feel the need to bring this up, you better your facts straight.[/quote]
Let’s discuss your “facts”. What you complain about is not leeching of any other client/server code. Shareaza simply can “speak” those protocols, which, btw, are ALL open, hence all of these other great clients.
Support Open-Source now, or we’ll be next in line…
http://forum.cmsmadesimple.org/index.php/topic,20984.0.html
http://www.shareazasecurity.be/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=972
This is really some really twisted shit here.
Open Source items and programs are really great alternatives to paying for a program. I like OOffice, Audacity, and a mess of other good stuff. I was even planning on trying to help out on the programs! If these fools take over Shareaza, it’s like opening the door to Open Source Stuff to other idiots with a sign saying “HERE! TAKE MY STUFF TOO!!!!!”
This has to stop. This isn’t just a take over for an OS program, it means Bottomless pockets can take over our rights!
who cares?
You can’t fight the world government, which owns RIAA and georgewbush. It’s not right, it’s not wrong: big fish eat little fish. Did you think international finance was a game? Be grateful they didn’t kill you all, and be aware that they still might.
[quote comment="379748"]You can’t fight the world government, which owns RIAA and georgewbush. It’s not right, it’s not wrong: big fish eat little fish. Did you think international finance was a game? Be grateful they didn’t kill you all, and be aware that they still might.[/quote]
What happened to the stories of David vs Goliath?
If we give up like they want us to, they will win. If we all work together, we can be stronger than the government.
Governments should be afraid of their people, not the other way around.
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