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Why Do Copyright Monopolists Think They Can Just Take Somebody Else’s Work?

Copyright monopolists insist on the idea of controlling the fruits of other people’s labor, such as when other people copy a particular file. This attitude is offensive, insulting, and antithetical to a free market.

copyright-brandedThe famous philosopher John Locke once published the idea that a person has the right to profit off of the fruits of their labor.

This is only partially true. Once you have sold something, you hold no further rights to profit off of it. This is fairly obvious, but needs to be stated for context.

An entrepreneur can sell one or both of two things: you can sell products, and you can sell services. If somebody decides to make shiny things and sell them, they have a right to profit off the fruit of that labor – but only up until the point where they sell the shiny things. Their ownership of the shiny thing, and their right to profit, ends the second the item is sold to somebody. Conversely, if somebody decides to sell their time in selling services, their right to profit ends the second they stop working for the person they have sold their time to.

In geek terms, entrepreneurship is finding a value differential in society, constructing a conduit between the two endpoints and sticking a generator in the middle of the conduit. Profit ensues from the generator until the value differential has equalized to the point where the pressure is no longer sufficient to overcome the resistance of the generator, at which point the conduit stops working.

This is how a free market works, and it is regarded as the foundation of our economy. However, copyright monopolists are trying their hardest to muddle this simple and fundamental principle, by claiming a continued kind of ownership even after something is sold. That’s not how a market works. That’s a monopoly. That’s harmful. That’s bad.

We have indeed observed before how the copyright monopoly stands in direct opposition to property rights, sabotaging this foundation of our economy and the fundamentals of entrepreneurship.

So for the sake of argument, let’s assume I am given a copy of the movie The Avengers by somebody. It is one of many copies. There are many ones like it, but this one is mine. It is my property in all its aspects.

However, copyright monopolists would argue that they should continue to control my property. This is not just strange, but offensive. Even worse, when I do some labor on my own property, such as executing a “copy file” command on it, the copyright monopolists claim they should control that labor too – as well as the fruits of it. This is outrageous and has me fuming over their arrogance.

When I manufacture another copy of The Avengers using my own property and my own labor, copyright monopolists somehow believe they have a right to the fruits of my labor. I find that idea offensive and insulting.

It is true that the ease of my labor depends on many people having worked on other things before me. However, this is true with all entrepreneurship. My ability to copy a particular file depends not just on those who created the file, but also on those who invented electricity generators, the modern graphics card, the keyboard, wire insulation, storage media, networking protocols, and many, many other things. This is as ancient as Rome: entrepreneurship has always built on the already-performed work of others, and one set of previous such entrepreneurs do obviously not get any kind of special privileges on a functioning market.

Anybody is free to create shiny things, but their ownership over the shiny thing stops the instant they sell it. That’s how a market works. Claiming control over the fruits of other people’s labor, such as when somebody makes a copy of a file using their own property, is deeply, deeply immoral.

About The Author

Rick Falkvinge is a regular columnist on TorrentFreak, sharing his thoughts every other week. He is the founder of the Swedish and first Pirate Party, a whisky aficionado, and a low-altitude motorcycle pilot. His blog at falkvinge.net focuses on information policy.

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  • Guest

    Because they are greedy f*ckers and want to control everything that’s why.

    • closetothetruth

      but telling me that because you can, you have a right to copy and distribute the book that i spent 3 years writing without my getting any sort of payment for my work–that’s unselfishness?

      • Guest

        If your work is good and its price is decent I will support you.

        IMPORTANT: I will only pay for it if I know the money will directty to you and not to middlemen, so choose the correct business model or you won’t see a dimme.

        • closetothetruth

          since you oppose any restrictions as to who can copy and distribute my work, how will you know who the creator is, and/or whether your payment goes to the creator? if my work is really good, are you going to copy it, put your own name on it, and sell it and claim to be the author? IP protection is the only way we currently have to ensure exactly what you claim to endorse.

        • http://twitter.com/Falkvinge Falkvinge

          Speaking from experience, finding out the creator is a trivial task. See, we have this thing called the Internet…

        • closetothetruth

          And we have this thing called copyright. Without it, what supports claims of creation? Why can’t Google claim it owns what i put up on YouTube and deserves all the profits from it? Why can’t you copy my book and say you wrote it? There are examples of communication practices where copyright did not exist, and you know what they had? rampant copying and claims of ownerships/authorship all over the place, so that for a huge number of items nobody knows who did what, and nobody (except maybe the printers) got paid. Whose rights would that respect again?

        • raymond

          I’m not a copyright abolitionist myself, as the OP appears to be, but rather more of a copyright ‘minimalist’, however copyright is not necessary to deal with false claims of authorship. You don’t need to have exclusive rights on making copies of the work to establish authorship of the work. Indeed, a form of this is already operative in trademark law. You can make all the “copies” of McDonald’s food you like, but you can’t claim McDonald’s is the “author” of your copies. You see, “authorship” is established here without the need for any restriction on making copies of the thing authored.

        • closetothetruth

          you are talking about rewriting copyright law, which is a reasonable idea. I think corporations (eg Diseny) have gone crazy with their ideas about intellectual property. But as these laws exist now, copyright is the only thing that stops people (as Falkvinge’s posting here suggests) from stamping other people’s works with their own name and selling it as their own. And if you don’t think people are clever enough to figure out ways to do that once it’s allowed by law, you haven’t been around long enough.

        • BJonesTF

          As an American, you might be interested to know that while the US had copyright law, until about the 20th Century, it didn’t apply to non-US works. As far as the US was concerned, non-US works were fair game to be copied and be unattributed at will.

          You know who it didn’t happen to? Most high quality artists. Sure some tried it, but public outrage and opinion shot them down.

          There also wasn’t copyright at the time of Shakespeare. You don’t find people passing off Romeo and Juliette as ‘by john smith’, now or 200 years ago.

          This is where you argument (and indeed most of the arguments made by the copyright lobby) fall down – they are based on hypotheticals that have the unfortunate property of not having occurred when the circumstances were as described.

          Copyright, and attribution are two VERY different things.

        • closetothetruth

          in our legal system they are directly connected. copyright is the ONLY legal avenue creators have to protect their attribution.

          and you bring up a great real-world example that you obviously have not researched.

          All of Shakespeare’s work (until the First Folio) was published by printers with little or no connection to Shakespeare. (The First Folio was published after his death, assembled by Ben Jonson and others.) Much of it was anonymous, or attributed to others–so much so that we still don’t know exactly what plays he or others wrote.

          And we have records of the printers from the time. Do you know how much money William Shakespeare, the greatest author of all time in English, earned from his works? $0. zero.

          want to try again?

        • http://www.facebook.com/jon7272 Jon Holliday

          and yet he still created stuff and made no money you just destroyed your own arguament

        • BuddhaFacePalmed

          And if copyright had existed during Shakespeare’s era, he would have been just another writer of no significance since only a small group of people viewed his work.

          want to try again?

        • Alan

          Shakespeare was a playwright, and made his money from his Globe Theatre productions. Just because he didn’t make his money from selling printed copies of what he had written doesn’t mean he didn’t make money.

        • G9999

          So he did it for zero $, then that explain his was pure love, as such, he become immortal, a classic author, such high quality artists and legacies can only come up from pure love not expecting to get millions.

        • Alan

          I’m more of a copyright minimalist myself, but as for claims of plagiarism – how does copyright protect an author from plagiarism?

          On the contrary: without copyright, if someone copies your work before you are able to publish it (it happens – frequently with song lyrics, I’ve heard), and they claim copyright on it, you will not be legally able to sell or use your own work – but without copyright, you can still do so.

          I believe copyright is reasonable, but should be for a short time (maybe 10 years or so) and should have ample fair use provisions.

        • ART

          You’re being silly, plagiarism can happen, no doubt.
          although file-sharers just spend their time
          and bandwidth in things they liked,
          they’re not there to steal works, even,
          they can create fansites to praise
          the name of the author and his/her artworks.

          Authors’ Rights? Yes, that’s good.
          Plagiarism is just for untalented people.

          Copyright? That’s just turning in a way to take
          every penny possible from anywhere,
          “They’re not buying more of my out-of-print products!!
          I’m going to legal extortionate now. Thank you, US laws”.

        • Mikael Isaksson

          And what stops it now? Happens all the time with or without copyright, but usually gets sorted out. Why would we have to have a copyright monopoly just to be able to honor the original artist/creator? It works fine in other systems by the way, such as public domain, cc, freeware and so on.

        • closetothetruth

          I don’t know what “monopoly” means in this context. It does not “happen all the time now”–not what would happen if copyright was abolished.

        • http://www.facebook.com/jon7272 Jon Holliday

          people will still create stuff ie shakespeare as your previous blog hahaha

        • Ardvaark

          If you actually followed the origins of copyright you’d find it came from England, as an order from Queen Mary I in order to monopolise & control the press’ speech and keep the people from passing information that went against the Queen’s wishes.

          It had nothing to do with the right to copy someone else’s work and claim to be the creator, that is plagiarism and has always been frowned upon, even before copyright.

        • closetothetruth

          that is the correct (but partial) origin of copyright law.

          current copyright law has changed just a bit from that, and is now the exclusive means by which what you call “plagiarism” but in the law is called “theft of copyright” is treated.

        • Ardvaark

          And is the only aspect to which copyright should apply, protect plagiarism.

        • http://www.facebook.com/jon7272 Jon Holliday

          sharing of copyright there fixed it for you

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “current copyright law has changed just a bit from that”

          Yes. It has become immeasurably worse. Government information control is wrong already, but to hand such power – literally the right to veto uses of other people’s property – to any one private individual?

          In the internet era this is much like trying to enforce a ban on people speaking certain words. Any enforcement attempt will at once come into conflict not only with property rights but also with free speech. As a side effect at that.

        • Youneedtodosomereading

          There is no such thing as ‘theft of copyright’ either under the law or in reality. Nobody can steal your rights to restrict how something you create can be copied. People can coerce you into signing away those rights (or blind you with legalese to accomplish it), the way that major record labels have traditionally done, but nobody can steal your rights.

          Plagiarism is the act of pretending that another’s work is one’s own (whether profiting from it or not), so plagiarism contains within itself a breach of your copyrights, but does not remove those rights from you.

          Neither is a breach of copyrights always plagiarism. If someone simply copies your work without permission it is a breach of your copyrights, but if they do not claim that work as their own it is not plagiarism.

        • spookyserendipity

          “Theft of copyright” does not exist, neither logically nor as the result of any existing case law anywhere in the world.

        • spookyserendipity

          Yep. Laws often evolve over time to become twisted/mutated/wrong-headed versions of what they were originally intended to accomplish. The very notion of a “corporation” being a “person” in the United States came into being because it rode on the coat-tails of a Constitutional Amendment designed to make slaves free. Try to wrap your brain around that one for a minute…and then realize how much damage large corps can do – and get away with – precisely because they are legally considered “people”.

          The original intent for copyright wasn’t exactly philanthropic…but it has nevertheless mutated into a globally destructive force that tends to counter-act the will of free markets.

        • http://www.facebook.com/jon7272 Jon Holliday

          copyright what copyright i dont beleave in no stinking copyright lol

        • spookyserendipity

          Google’s profits are doing just fine irrespective of copyright.

        • SoundnuoS

          And Googles algorithms are patented because…?

        • spookyserendipity

          lol You sure like to miss the point. I was saying Google is doing just fine in their business model without the use of copyright. Google’s entire business model is better positioned to profit in a modern economy without strict IP or copyright, which is where we are most definitely headed. Most of the large media companies seem to have no idea how or any real desire to react to rapidly changing market demand because they have a vested interest in the status quo. Their only option is the courts and trying to buy off Congress in order to prop up a dying – arguably already dead – business model. It isn’t gonna work because there is a lot of big money lined up against them on this one too. One things for sure, it’s going to be fun to watch and participate as things progress. :)

        • SoundnuoS

          Google’s business model is selling ads. They protect the IP of their algorithms concerning that, like any other business does.
          If you’re not in the business of selling ads but in the business of selling music, movies or books then copyright becomes pretty essential.
          Google’s business model is basically the same as that of free newspapers. You give away the articles and pay for it with ad money. It’s an old model transferred to the internet.
          In order to make that model really work with music and movies you should have commercial breaks in the middle of songs and films.
          Not something most people would appreciate.

        • Guest

          “how will you know who the creator is?”

          Because you presumably put your name on your work? If you didn’t you have problems no amount of copyright can solve.

          “and/or whether your payment goes to the creator?”

          Because I can read and therefore see if you’re distributing 100% independantly or utilizing a middleman?

          “put your own name on it, and sell it and claim to be the author?”

          Plagiarism and piracy: two different things. If copyright was abolished tomorrow there would still be laws in place to stop people from plagairising your work and selling it under their own names.

          Your arguments are awful. Are you a MAFIAA troll or have you only been conned by them?

        • closetothetruth

          “Plagiarism and piracy: two different things. If copyright was abolished
          tomorrow there would still be laws in place to stop people from
          plagairising your work and selling it under their own names.”

          please go and find the law and show us that this is the case. “Plagiarism” is an ethical concept. the only law that references it is called “copyright.” Does it make any difference to you if you now understand that copyright law is the only lever that allows creators even to start a plagiarism claim?

          my question is, have you been conned by Google, IBM, Facebook, and the many other companies that are dying (and actively lobbying, hard) for copyrights to end so they can profit off of other people’s work? Believe it or not, not all corporations are on the same side, and in corporate America, actually the entertainment companies (the ones you seem to care so much about) are much smaller than the huge IT firms that see the advantage in wiping out copyright. Read about Google’s acquisition of YouTube–Google wants the right to profit (via ads) of everything on there.

          Some of the cloud providers (Amazon, Apple, Facebook via Instagram) want to claim ownership of the files you put up there *for storage.* And copyright gets in their way.

          I am an author. In my area, there are quite a few powerful FOSS sources who would like to suggest that I have no rights to my own work–that I should be forced to give my work away for free. Yes, that does enter in my decision whether or not to write another book. I don’t earn a lot from my books, but the thought that I’m not allowed to earn anything is definitely a buzzkill.

        • Guest

          “please go and find the law and show us that this is the case”

          Okay, here’s just one example of a law that considers plagiarism to be a distinct and entirely separate entity from copyright.

          http://www.flsenate dot gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/877.17

          “copyright law is the only lever that allows creators even to start a plagiarism claim”

          hahahahahahahahahahaha

          “my question is, have you been conned by Google, IBM, Facebook, and the many other companies that are dying (and actively lobbying, hard) for copyrights to end so they can profit off of other people’s work?”

          What is this I don’t even

          The big tech companies are currently embroiled in patent wars. Not copyright wars. They’re fine with copyright law as it currently stands and are doing nothing to change it, it’s patent law that they’re lobbying to reform.

          Goddamn, you are confused.

          Your whole defense of copyright consists of falsely attributing unrelated protections to it and then screaming “SEE!? WE’D LOSE THESE PROTECTIONS WITHOUT COPYRIGHT!!”.

          “Google wants the right to profit (via ads) of everything on there.”

          Yes. And they already have that right. What in god’s name is your point? Do you even know?

          “Some of the cloud providers (Amazon, Apple, Facebook via Instagram) want to claim ownership of the files you put up there *for storage.* And copyright gets in their way.”

          What the fucking fuck. Do you know what would enable them to claim ownership of your files? COPYRIGHT. You are saying, in effect, that copyrights stand in the way of cloud storage providers being able to claim copyright on your files, and so they want to get rid of copyright which would then make it impossible for them to claim ownership of your files.

          Jesus christ. There is word in the English language to even describe how fucked up your “logic” is.

          ” In my area, there are quite a few powerful FOSS sources who would like to suggest that I have no rights to my own work–that I should be forced to give my work away for free.”

          The only people in the FOSS community who suggest everybody should be FORCED to give their work away for free are way out on the edges of the lunatic fringe and wield no real power over anything except for their own terminal window.

          And there’s nobody in the FOSS community who advocates having NO rights over your own work because that would instantly void the sacred GNU License.

          “I don’t earn a lot from my books”

          Aww, I wonder why? Judging by your comments you’re either wildly dishonest or have extremely poor comprehension skills. Who wouldn’t want to read your epic tomes of wisdom?

          ” but the thought that I’m not allowed to earn anything”

          Is a thought that nobody is expressing, except for you, as a strawman.

        • dynath

          Claiming you are someone other than you say you are or that something is your property that isn’t is fraud. the anti-fraud laws cover what people keep calling plagiarism. They exist separate of copyright law and in spite of what the name suggests copyright is constitutionally about insuring competition and innovation not securing the rights to profit. the entertainment and manufacturing industry have made the laws about profit but they weren’t intended to be.

          Technically speaking if you look at the fortune 500 companies the majority of companies there are in two industries, Entertainment/media, and manufacturing/distribution. these industries own most copyrights, patents, and trademarks. they have a vested interest in owning them and securing them hence they lobby strongly for copyright. Truthfully some IT firms lobby against copyright but very few actually do so, most tend to keep out of the issue because they are caught between the end user and the legal teams of media companies since their networks are used for distribute content to pirates and legitimate users alike. Google profits from ads not your videos. Amazon profits from actual profit sales not the cloud service, apple profits from propriatary hardware and software, facebook doesn’t profit at all because its run mostly by how valuable it would be if it was profitable. None of them have attempted to own anyone’s works. all of them want less restrictive copyrights so they don’t get sued over what their end users upload.

          I’m an author as well, and a painter, and a 3d designer. For some of use we create because we want to create. Profiting gives us more ability to create. A system that supports large middlemen that cut into the profits and meddle with the type of products we create is not beneficial to me as an artist or content creator. the copyright boogie men earn billions upon billions of dollars playing middle men and convincing artists they need copyright to thrive. But truthfully if you have created a work that touches the lives of other human beings can’t you possibly believe for one second that those lives you have touched would want to give back something to you rather than stab you in the back and run for all they are worth. Modern copyright is engendered around fear that everyone in the world wants to steal from you. Who benefits more from that fear, you? the end user? pirates on the internet? no the corporate middle men that are convincing you everyone is your enemy and only they can be trusted.

        • copywrong

          this. this this this this this. this statement alone makes me want to buy something from you. directly.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Read about Google’s acquisition of YouTube–Google wants the right to profit (via ads) of everything on there.”

          Google made a killing starting with the concept of providing a “free” service, which costs the average consumer nothing more than eyeball time, if that.

          Everyone called them insane, and yet they proved they could make a living providing “free”. Hell, most of the software created today by them is indeed FOSS and Google invests heavy money into the creation of free software – because they know just how much it strengthens their brand to do so.

          They wan tthe right to profit? Via ads?

          And are you claiming everyone else can not do the same?

          It isn’t google’s fault that they can turn dross into gold and yet clueless copyright maximalists come around, insisting the model won’t work, with fact-sheet in hand.

          “I don’t earn a lot from my books, but the thought that I’m not allowed to earn anything is definitely a buzzkill.”

          Go google Paulo Coelho and Neil Gaiman. Then come back to us and explain how history is obviously wrong. Or was that just another regurgitation of the history revisionism we are used to seeing in the official MPAA/RIAA pamphlets?

        • Ardvaark

          Please don’t mistake copyright with plagiarism.

          Copyright restricts the customer’s ability to do what he wants with his property which is wrong. I own a book I should, using my own time and resources, be able to generate any number of resources I want. The author/creator wouldn’t change, and so as the owner, me.

          Copying a book and claiming to be the creator of it is plagiarism. That is morally wrong AND illegal, with or without copyright.

        • closetothetruth

          Copying a book and claiming to be the creator of it is plagiarism. That is morally wrong AND illegal, with or without copyright.

          Really? Please name the law. In the US, copyright is the name for that law. And the only name for it.

        • Anyone

          when copyright is abolished that can be kept with a different name

        • Ardvaark

          The world doesn’t end in the US my friend.

          Yet you’ll find that the act of copying and the act of claiming authorship of a creation are two different things. One is simply copying, the other is plagiarism. The first is ok, the second isn’t.

          And that fact stays regardless of the name of the law.
          If copyright is the name of the law that handles the act of copying AND plagiarism (again, don’t mistake the name of the acts with the name of the law), then the law is flawed and needs to handle only the acts of plagiarism.

        • dynath

          Actually the law in question is the federal regulations against fraud. Copyright extends to duplication, misrepresenting ownership or personal identity is fraud.

        • http://www.facebook.com/jon7272 Jon Holliday

          owned by the comment under lmfao

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          You are quite bluntly speaking, wrong. You might want to change your nick to hit-and-a-miss instead.

          But if you want to look for name protection, look no further than Trademark law.

          Which is the only law which holds provision for name protection. Copyright does not.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “since you oppose any restrictions as to who can copy and distribute my work, how will you know who the creator is, and/or whether your payment goes to the creator?”

          Copyright is NOT paternity right.

        • Youneedtodosomereading

          “IP protection” is not copyright. Intellectual property rights are something entirely different to the power to restrict copying of that ‘property’. Easy mistake to make with all the disinformation that flies around from the copyright trolls, but still a mistake. Have a read up on the two relevant laws if they’re really as important to you as you think – it’s better to be informed than listen to the people who post as Baghdad Bobmail.

        • beer with everything

          wow that has to be the longest reply thread in history

        • spookyserendipity

          I always find it amusing that some people have such a difficult time understanding the collective psychology/group think of free markets.

          People will buy what they want/like/need if/when it is offered at fair price points they can afford. If it’s a crappy product it will not sell. If it’s not available in a particular region it will not sell. If it is burdened with unnecessary DRM that lowers/removes usability/functionality then word spreads and it will sell less. People who are poor and have no means to purchase the product will pirate it no matter what if they know how to do so. There is no “lost sale” if someone could not or would not have bought it in the first place due to financial or taste circumstance. If it is at a price point that is above what the market deems “fair”, then those people in the middle might be swayed to pirate it rather than purchase it. If it is offered at a fair price, then those in the middle might be swayed to purchase it rather than pirate it. And, finally, there is evidence that pirates spend significantly more on media (music/movies/videogames) than non-pirates, which indicates that some undetermined percentage of the pirate community views pirating as a form of “previewing” various products so they don’t waste their limited disposable cash on the lower quality items. To many who can afford the real deal, they WILL go out and buy the real thing after taking it for a test spin and finding it of high enough quality. Which comes full circle: if a good or service is a reasonable price and high enough quality, then people will buy it. If it’s a pile of steaming excrement then people will delete it off their hard drives after downloading it.

          I’m not sure why this basic psychology is so hard for some people to understand.

        • closetothetruth

          that’s exactly why so many businesses, especially those invested in intellectual property, support your view. they, too, believe that they will lose no sales if there is no such thing as IP. that’s why this issue is so uncontroversial. that’s why people like me “don’t understand free markets”–”people like me” in this case including many large corporations who have made their money off IP. Ask Microsoft what it thinks about doing business in China, where copyright is virtually unenforceable–or go read about it. They clearly think that having 80% or 90% of their product in use returning no income to Microsoft is a terrific example of the free market working itself out, and letting people decide what Microsoft “deserves.” If the issue was as obvious and based in clear principles of free markets, why would so many free-market participants–particularly those for whom IP or trade secrets constitute a major part of their business–fall on what you are calling the “copyright monopolist” side of it? Why would the anti-IP folks mostly include companies that make money off other people’s IP, and little worry about others making money off their own?

        • http://www.facebook.com/stephen.hall.5095 Stephen Hall

          I buy 2nd hand cds and dvds from a local store knowing that not a cent will go to anyone involved in the making of that product. Yet I am not called a thief and risk being fined like I could be if a friend transferred a digital copy to me and then deleted his original and neither is the storekeeper who is making money off this parasitic trade.

        • 2013sUxAlready

          Your point is? You just sit and watch from under your rock when the gaming industry makes second hand copies unavailable or impossible (SONY already has a patent on a few core technologies for that purpose). Don’t you think that the movie moguls will do the same? Also… your money for 2nd hand copies goes to the store owner who either buys much cheaper or gives away rental discs that are almost worn out or are piling up in his storage. You KNOW that not a single cent will reach the author or artist. So again… your point is? You are okay with paying for copies which were already payed for while at the same time you only apply a prize tag to the physical media thus SUPPORTING the very idea behind copyright… GTFO

        • spookyserendipity

          I’m still convinced there is no way Sony is this dumb. My theory is that they patented the technology simply to introduce royalties possibilities should Microsoft ever decide to implement something like that. I’m convinced MS was beating its chest about this idea for the express purpose of testing Sony’s response. Market forces are simply too powerful to overcome with such lame-brained, ham-handed attempts to control people’s buying/selling habits. Used markets exist in EVERY market for many reasons and will continue to do so.

        • spookyserendipity

          Used sales are a by-product of free market forces at work. Copyright trolls are largely fascists who would love to eliminate the used sales market for every product in existence if they could. Witness the behind-the-scenes push to do just that with the next gen gaming consoles. Which ever of the companies is dumb enough to do so will instantly kill their console. There’s a reason used markets exist. Always have and always will.

        • spookyserendipity

          You hit the nail on the head right here re: the REAL reason for the existence of copyright: so that no-talent middle-men can continue to enforce/sell out-dated/unwanted/obsolete business models/products/services at monopoly/fixed/colluded price points. The crying for the “starving artists” isn’t to support the artists, it’s to support the massively obese, no-talent middle-man bureaucracy which has sunk its tentacles into people with talent in order to ride their coat-tails and suck them dry. :)~

      • Anyone

        if you don’t want your work shared, don’t release it
        noone can copy the thoughts in your head, but everyone can copy your book

        but all evidence points towards that if you are shared a lot you will also be bought a lot, so don’t worry too much about it, just be sure to make your work easily available at a good price

        • closetothetruth

          “if you don’t want your work shared, don’t release it.”

          that logic is correct: the inability to control copyright provides a huge disincentive for creators to create.

        • Squidward

          i think the biggest disincentive to create is obscurity (and trolls), not being unable to tell people what to do with works

        • closetothetruth

          evidence to back up these thoughts? or are they just thoughts?

        • Squidward

          evidence? ….. for obscurity? are you serious?

          art without an audience is … kind of worthless … it might aswell not exist, i cant stress how disinterested i get when i remember that no matter what i make, almost nobody will see it and i will never get feedback or anything, even if i make it just for me sooner or later i will lose it or delete it or whatever

          unable to have IP? well .. does IP help me get an audience? no? well it’s not giving me an incentive

        • closetothetruth

          evidence that “obscurity” causes creators to choose not to create (in my experience, they often create to rise out of obscurity), and that copyright is a disencentive, and lack of ability to own/sell copies of one’s work would be an incentive.

          i see plenty of evidence building in music, visual arts, and writing, that artists are becoming very concerned about being unable to feed themselves even when they become popular, and therefore being unable to continue to do the work they love.

          copyright–the right to profit from sales of one’s creations–is an incentive to create. popularity, on its own, does not pay the mortgage or buy dinner.

        • Guest

          “copyright–the right to profit from sales of one’s creations”

          That isn’t even remotely what copyright is.

          Also, piracy isn’t a threat to artists so what’s your problem with it, exactly?

        • closetothetruth

          that’s exactly what it is.

          Wikipedia, “Copyright,” sentence 1: “Copyright is a legal concept, enacted by most governments, giving the creator of an original work exclusive rights to it, usually for a limited time.”

        • Guest

          Copyright has nothing to do with your right to profit from your own creations. If it was 100% abolished you would still have that right and your wikipedia quote says nothing to contradict that.

          Again I’ll ask, and maybe this time you’ll answer, piracy doesn’t harm artists – so what’s your problem with it?

        • bobmail

          “Copyright has nothing to do with your right to profit from your own creations. If it was 100% abolished you would still have that right and your wikipedia quote says nothing to contradict that.”

          Incorrect. You may have the right to sell it, but people would equally have the right not to pay and still profit from it. Under that situation, few if any will pay for what is generally free.

          Copyright creates ownership, in the same manner that property laws create the concept of real estate. By setting and agreeing to boundaries and limits, we are able to sell, rent, lend, lease, or license things that otherwise may not be so simply done. In having these system, we create the economy which drives all that we do (and pays for it, I might add).

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Copyright creates ownership, in the same manner that property laws create the concept of real estate…”

          Manifestly false, and it’s apparent you haven’t read either copyright law nor the fundamental reasoning behind copyright law.

          Both the law as worded and the reasoning behind it is quite clear: Copyright creates an exception in ordinary property rights.

          Because you can not own an idea or information. Not constitutionally, not according to the UN human rights convention, and not according – even – to the wording of copyright law.

          In practice, however, it means copyright is state-sponsored veto granted on other people’s uses of their property. On the say-so of private individuals.

          And “IP” is demonstrably the one and only way in which the law deviates from the concept of “property” in such a flagrant regard.

        • bobmail

          ” Copyright creates an exception in ordinary property rights.”

          No, copyright creates a different class of rights, no different from property ownership laws and the right to resell or lease.

          The difference? Copyright is created under a constitutional context, where most others are not directly mentioned.

          “it means copyright is state-sponsored veto granted on other people’s uses of their property.”

          Wrong again. You are making the assumption that you somehow managed to purchase ownership of a song or a movie, which is not the case. Ownership rights are not granted on a rental property, a rental car, or a licensed use of IP. It’s a pretty simple concept, really. You just have to get away from the (demented) mindset that you somehow “bought” the ownership of a movie.

          Actually, copyright follows property law perfectly. The creator owns it, and can lease, sell, transfer, or retain ownership AS THEY SEE FIT. It’s pretty much exactly in line with all other property ownership.

          In fact, I would say in many ways it’s like leasehold land. The creator has ownership control for a set period, at which time it reverts back to public domain.

          I know, real world examples really suck, because they blow your view of the world into the weeds.

        • Fairglow

          When you buy a CD/DVD/Blu-ray disc/painting/book/… (physical product) you, in fact, own it.

          Copyright law allows the copyright owner to limit the ways in which the buyer is allowed to use his/her own property, which conflicts with the buyer’s property rights of the physical product.

        • bobmail

          You own the disc – you don’t own the content.

          Two different things. The plastic disc is but a carrier. Unless of course you are suggesting that the rights for digital music are somehow massively different from a plastic disc, tape, vinyl record, or the like, which it is not. Don’t confuse the delivery method with the rights granted for the music or movie.

        • Scumsuckingmafiaatrollkiller

          You do own the content, you just don’t have the right to copy it without permission of the copyright holder. That is what copyright does.

        • Pelham123

          “You own the disc – you don’t own the content.”

          You own your copy of the content. Which is the whole premise of this post, which you either didn’t read or understand – what does that mean?

          Your half-understood regurgitations are not helping people who make their living off copyrighted work.

        • Fairglow

          Oh I agree, two different things, with overlapping and conflicting rights, which is the point I was making.

          Have you tried separating the two? I think you will find it very difficult to separate the content from the carrier without destroying it. The carrier would probably not be able to hold any content what-so-ever after the removal of the original content.
          The copyright owner is not allowed to remove the content, because the buyer owns that instance of the content fused into the physical product. I.e, the copyright holder does not have the right to destroy the property of the buyer, even if it contains that content.

          The buyer bought the two things combined. They are made inseparable in the physical product.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Of course they aren’t. In none of the cases you provide can there be anything understood as “content” which is separable in any way from the physical medium.

          The DVD – or the Vinyl record – IS, for all intents and purposes, not divisible into “carrier” or “content”.

          Except by some magical leap of faith only comparable to the miracle of transubstantiation.

          And it would not surprise me by now if magic was what you relied on. It certainly isn’t logic or observable reality.

        • SoundnuoS

          For the purpose of sale music (or a movie) isn’t separable into carrier and content.

          The music (which is the actual product) is clearly not the same as the medium however.

          In order to experience the music you need to play it through a soundsystem with speakers.

          That creates soundwaves you can hear. These soundwaves are the product as created by musicians in a recording studio.

          They are clearly separable from the carrier and objectively verifiable by anyone listening or even mechanically through the use of a soundmeter.

          No transubstantiation there.

        • spookyserendipity

          Do you think most media companies would have a much harder time convincing consumers to shell out $15-$30 for the latest Blue-Ray movie if they were 100% forthright about what you are claiming here? “Feel free to RENT this movie for $25. You don’t actually own it in any way. We are basically a much more expensive version of Netflix in which we allow you to temporarily keep a hard copy of OUR movie in your home. Out of the goodness of our hearts. Thanks for your money sucker”. ;)

          The reason these issues are relegated to being discussed in forums such as this and/or in court-rooms but NOT out in the open in the market is precisely because it wouldn’t pass the straight face test. And companies know this.

          At any rate, it looks to me like you’re missing a key piece of the logic here, in that while media companies own the overall “right” to the original work, a person who purchases the DVD/Blue-Ray does, in fact, OWN the physical disk AND the COPY of said work on that disk. This is covered pretty extensively under fair use and as far as I can tell is a pretty basic, easy to understand concept.

        • SoundnuoS

          Yes, you do own the disc and the specific copy on it.

          What that ownership gives you is a lifetime of access to the music or movie. (As long as you make sure you keep some equipment that can play it.)

          The right to make additional copies and globally distribute them isn’t included with the purchase however.

          That’s one of the rights reserved by the seller.

        • spookyserendipity

          I’m glad we can agree at least in part to something here. The problem I believe most people have with the current attempts at media delivery is they are crippled/hampered in some way, preventing legitimate copies of music/movies/games from being used in more than one media device in the same household. These attempts to control media delivery & playback are a giant fail in more ways than one and end up encouraging piracy and in no way curtail it. When a pirated copy is easier to use and can be used on more than one playback device instantly that is a huge advantage that many otherwise legitimate buyers of media take notice of pretty quickly.

        • SoundnuoS

          These days mp3s are pretty much DRM-free and streaming apps are available for a multitude of platforms.

        • markh

          that is the reason MPAA does not want to abbolish the cd dvd things because of making money. But you are wrong if I buy a car I own the car and everything in it. If I buy a cd I own everything on the cd. Your logic does not make sense

        • http://gene-poole.tumblr.com Gene Poole

          Stop lying. you’re looking retarded.

          “copyright creates a different class of rights, no different from property ownership laws and the right to resell or lease.”

          No, it doesn’t. They are not equal, as the Universal Declaration of Rights and Freedoms expressly makes clear.

          The difference? Copyright is created under a constitutional context, where most others are not directly mentioned.

          Hmm, wrong again. The constitution grants congress the right to create a copyright structure. In other words, they can, but they are under no obligation to do so. Which means we could, with consensus, repeal copyright law at any given moment without violating the constitution. By contrast, you cannot remove people’s rights to property without violating the constitution, and seeing violent upheaval, including revolution. See the difference? One is an inalienable right, one is a privelege that you can take away without upsetting the status quo.

          You just have to get away from the (demented) mindset that you somehow “bought” the ownership of a movie.

          No, you have to get away from the idea that when I purchase something, and have the physical item in my possession, that I should not be allowed to own it. That’s the difference between ideas and tangible manifest things.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “No, copyright creates a different class of rights, no different from property ownership laws and the right to resell or lease.”

          The legal definition of copyright is quite clear that copyright is an exemption to property law. Why keep lying when the truth is quite easy to verify for yourself?

          “Wrong again. You are making the assumption that you somehow managed to purchase ownership of a song or a movie, which is not the case…”

          BEEP! Starting off with a false assumption is a bad way to begin an argument. Or in your case, a long string of drivel meant to divert attention from the outright lie at the start.

          I make no such assumption. You simply claim that I do. When I purchase a DVD, I consider all of that DVD mine. No exceptions. If you want to make that exception, as a vendor, then you can’t sell the DVD.

          This is the difference between a purchase and a lend-lease agreement. Once again, bobmail, you need to go read up on facts.

          “Actually, copyright follows property law perfectly. The creator owns it, and can lease, sell, transfer, or retain ownership AS THEY SEE FIT. It’s pretty much exactly in line with all other property ownership.”

          Except for the fact that what is “owned” is exclusive rights to an idea or information.

          You’d be exactly right if it weren’t – again – for the fact that you are exactly wrong. An idea and information can be “owned” only by keeping it a secret. Exactly in the same way that you can only retain money by not giving it away or a car by not giving anyone else the keys.

          See, information you can freely give away while at the same time retaining the copy. Indeed, you can even force someone to accept information just by mentioning it.

          This falls QUITE a long way from any definition of what is understood as “property”. By that argument you carry, apples and exotic matter are quite similar in comparison.

          “I know, real world examples really suck, because they blow your my view of the world into the weeds.”

          Fixed that for you. My condolences that you think the real world sucks because it fails to have your back when you concoct yet one more deluded argument.

          So, once again, bobmail, go read a dictionary or something – better yet, go read up a basic understanding on how copyright law actually works.

          After which time I hope we get to see you trying to make an argument without having to make an initially untrue assumption backed by some fast talk.

        • spookyserendipity

          bobmail, the presence of copyright doesn’t prevent piracy now. In what imagined future do you think it will suddenly start to work? Who cares what made up “rights” it grants the creator of a work. The market determines the worth of that work, not some nebulous copyright claim.

          Ask the inventor of the buggy-whip how much a “copyright” would have protected his ability to make a profit from selling them after the combustion engine was jammed into a metal frame with 4 wheels. Works/products/services come and go as the market demands. Copyright is actually one of the tools that tends to try to force the market to what the sellers want – to sell something forever at a fixed/colluded price point – rather than heed the needs/desires of consumers.

          I always find it interesting that people with your viewpoints claim to understand and pine for “free markets”…but then you do everything you can to stop the free market from working as it should by gumming it up with artificial mechanisms designed to milk profit out of dying business models and obsolete or undesired products and services.

        • SoundnuoS

          Buggy-whip is not music/movies.

          Buggy-whip became obsolete, music/movies are not.

          The product of music/movies is still very much in demand.

          The customer might have a strong desire to pay nothing for a product, the seller has no obligation to give it to them for that price.

          There’s two parties to every trade, the buyer AND the seller. Both have rights, something a lot of people in this forum seem to have a hard time remembering.

        • spookyserendipity

          You seem to be missing the point a lot in your responses to me. Let’s try to clarify this a bit. The buggy-whip was a technology that was made obsolete because a new form of transportation made it unnecessary. Likewise, the analogy I was pointing out earlier is not pertaining to movies/music/games themselves, but rather the DELIVERY system by which the MPAA/RIAA wish to continue selling media to consumers. The old school sales/promo/distributions system they want to force on consumers is most definitely obsolete and no longer desired/wanted/supported by a large and exponentially growing segment of the population who prefer digital distribution without silly barriers placed on fair use once a COPY is purchased. If artificial/restrictive barriers are put up, this discourages legitimate sales and encourages piracy. The evidence to this effect is overwhelming. Produce a better product, get it out there as fast as possible in every market, and make it cheap and more people will buy it (if they can afford it) rather than pirate it. This is basic psychology 101 and we see it repeated millions of times per day. I find it odd how copyright nazis like to ignore the reality that the free market always wins.

        • SoundnuoS

          The delivery system has switched to digital. DRM is pretty much gone on music. Streaming apps are available for all platforms.
          These reasons aren’t there anymore, and even if they were they’d still not be a justification for taking it for free anyway.

        • http://www.facebook.com/jon7272 Jon Holliday

          paying money for plastic discs or expensive books does not pay my rent or food bills there fixed it for you lmfao

        • http://www.genomicon.com Nick Taylor

          Art without an audience is only worthless if you’re a needy extrovert.

          If you’re an introvert it’s fine.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          You mean the same way you lied through your teeth in every legal fact, or how authors are “motivated” by copyright, in view of historical data and books of law saying otherwise?

          Or are you ignorant instead of lying and simply very stubborn?

        • bobmail

          Please show me the quote. I never said any of that, you are a lying sack of shit.

        • http://twitter.com/CheapassFiction AeliusBlythe

          “…the inability to control copyright provides a huge disincentive for creators to create.”

          closetothetruth: Please don’t make generalities about “CREATORS” as though we are all anti-tech dinosaurs. We’re not. It doesn’t help anyone to paint us all with the same ossified, hostile brush. The internet is a copying MACHINE. To publish to the internet, then try to hobble it’s primary function shows a severe (and embarrasing) lack of understanding of the medium. Plenty of people already see writing & books as an archaeic art form. Please don’t reinforce that misconception.

          But if you haven’t heard the non-dinosaur arguments, here’s my collection of resources on why copyright is not, and should NEVER be our incentive to create:

          http://cheapassfiction.com/reference-copyrightpiracy-research/

          If you’re worried about books, you may be particularly interested in these two:
          http://toc.oreilly.com/2011/01/book-piracy-drm-data.html

          http://torrentfreak.com/internet-piracy-boosts-anime-sales-study-concludes-110203/

          Everyone else: Don’t worry. There will still be books, music, movies after copyright. SOME of us recognize that the copyright lockdown of our work does no good at all for us, our readers/listeners/etc, or anyone else.

        • Ardvaark

          Not true,

          With the democratization of the distribution methods, thanks to the internet, more content than ever is being produced.

          Never was the Indie Movie/Game/Music/Art movement so big as before the internet, which also started piracy and the biggest troubles to the copyright cartels.

          How can piracy exist at the same time the number of creators increases and yet disincentive the will to create as you claim? Well it doesn’t.

        • closetothetruth

          i just don’t think this tells us very much about what the world would be like if copyright were abolished. There is also starting to be evidence that many of those indie movie/game/music/art people are realizing that they are seeing very little of the income they deserve for the work they’ve done–see, e.g., http://www.orbooks.com/catalog/freeloading/

        • Ardvaark

          Again that is not true.

          There are several examples of this, for instance:

          The Indie Humble Bundle, where you can pay whatever you want for a pack of 7 games, starting at 1$ and then decide what portion of your payment goes to the devs and what portion goes to charity is a perfect example of a system where free-loading is possible, yet the devs report more profits than their usual sales.

        • BuddhaFacePalmed

          http://venturebeat.com/2013/02/01/minecrafts-notch-on-earning-101m-in-2012-its-weird-as-f/

          I dare you. Say indie game developers don’t earn. This is a low-res game, as far as you can get from mainstream gaming, pirated by hundreds of thousands of people. And still earned $100 million.

          Don’t say minecraft is an outlier. Notch had no budget, he wasn’t even a full-time developer. If he had gone to a mainstream gaming publisher house, they would laugh at his face before calling security.

          If your works are good, soon or later you’ll receive recognition. Popularity does help put food on the table, as long as you know how to cash in on it. Copyright for 50 years is ridiculous. May as well say artists, no matter how shitty, deserves a life-time free lunch so long as they create a piece of art.

        • bobmail

          The indie bundle works for now because you guys feel compelled to pay. But at some point, more and more people will realize they don’t have to pay, and then even the tip jar mentality will fail.

          Over time, the free lunch crowd tends to get bigger as the people actually paying for the buffet gets smaller.

        • BuddhaFacePalmed

          So, do clarify the “at some point”. If you meant more than 5 years down the line, then it’s already part of the mainstream culture if it can stay in the market for that long. Then, it should be in public domain, not “intellectual property” of some game publisher who did not contribute to the popularity or the development of the game.

        • bobmail

          Actually, it’s already happening. There are tipping points along the way, where suddenly there is a chance in the way people look at things. A couple of years ago, the piracy apologists pointed to strong concert ticket sales and increasing ticket prices, but 2012 was a year that showed that there is also a limit there. More and more tours dropped dates and all but gave away tickets to get people to attend. Outside of the truly major acts, most everyone else suffered.

          People have been taught not to pay, plain and simple.

          Calling something “culture” while ignoring how it was created is silly. By your logic, all buildings visible to the public should be public property, because they are part of the culture of a city or town. How silly is that?

        • Bobmule

          Bullshit. You are aware of the massive world recession I guess. Ticket sales and other paid-for ‘live’ entertainment (cinema outings and the like) were growing despite the recession and it would seem more likely that any drop in these figures is associated with people’s finite incomes and drop in the expendable part of the same.

        • Ophelia Millais

          Of course there are tipping points! The small percentage of content that’s commercially viable is only viable for a short time. That’s why you need to keep innovating.

          You can drop the prices for a while to delay the inevitable, you can polish it and repackage it, you can cash in on the nostalgia market, and you can pass laws to criminalize competition…but eventually you just need to let it go. It doesn’t matter how much money it cost to create, or what price you think it’s worth, or what “incentive” you think you’re entitled to. Once the tipping point has passed, the free market has spoken and the work hurtles toward worthlessness.

          Tell me, under what circumstances should any creation, ever, reach the public domain? Where is the threshold where you admit that there’s no point in trying to exploit creations for profit anymore?

        • Pelham123

          “More and more tours dropped dates and all but gave away tickets to get people to attend. Outside of the truly major acts, most everyone else suffered.”

          Boob, pointing out every untruth in your posts has become exhausting, but this is spectacularly false even for you.

          http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/music/news/story/2012-08-02/summer-concert-season/56723522/1

          http://www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2012/08/live-nation-ceo-sees-concert-sales-growth.html

          If you want anecdotal evidence, try to buy a ticket on the West Coast for just about any mid-level act (especially the ones popular with the under 30s). Good luck. Ticket buying has become a madhouse and more shows sell out than not.

          Speaking of silly, people buy what costs money and don’t buy what is offered to them at no cost. There’s no teaching needed and nothing has changed.

        • spookyserendipity

          Again, it comes back to supply/demand. Sell the product at a fair price that more people can afford and more people will buy it. Concert tickets are simply far too expensive for the average person, especially in this economy. A live concert offers a unique experience. For that reason alone its worth spending extra if its within the budget. But, there are limits.

          Example: I recently went to a Lady Gaga concert with my girlfriend after she purchased us tickets. I do fairly well (far beyond the average income/wealth level) and I was still a bit shocked at the prices for that concert. I appreciated my girlfriend purchasing the tickets but there’s no way I would have told her “yes” when she asked if I wanted to go if I’d have known ahead of time how expensive they were.

          Prior to the concert starting I noticed the place was only half full (at best) 15 minutes prior to show-time. This is for a hot venue like Lady Gaga. The show ended up starting almost 2 hrs late. The initial rumor circulating through the crowd was a wardrobe malfunction, but having been involved in promotional work before I suspected the real truth is they didn’t want to start that show until the place was packed. They did eventually fill the venue, but it took 2 extra hours past the scheduled start time to do so. I did a little asking around after the show and discovered they did a fire-sale on tickets via 2 or 3 local radio stations to get people in the door and fill those seats. The GA tix were being pushed for $80 a pop (half the going rate of $160). Now, I frequently attend professional sporting events (also far over-priced), but no matter how you look at it $160 is simply too high of a price for a ticket, even for a concert that is that well done from a hot artist. You can’t expect people to come out when they simply can’t afford the price point. Which, because of off-shoring millions of living wage jobs, is becoming all too prevalent.

          We live in changing times and everyone needs to downshift their expectations a bit. The glory days for the recording industry are gone. But sell the product at a price people can afford and people will purchase it…and plenty of people will still get very rich off the sales.

        • fbot

          This doesn’t make any sense at all.

          People will spend money. The availability of free digital goods does not prevent people from spending their money.

        • Fairglow

          There is still plenty of incentive to support the creator, even without copyright. If you like the output of a creator, you want to support the creator to help generate more of the content you like.

          That’s how it works for me, at least.

        • Bobmule

          That only works if society shifts further towards being greedy asshats like you Bob. As long as ‘piracy’ is growing then it’s obvious that the sharing side of human nature is alive and growing.

        • Keroberos

          ORLY, I don’t recall anyone standing over me with a gun forcing me to pay for a Humble Indie Bundle. Anyone tech savvy enough to know about it is tech savvy enough to know how to pirate it. Perhaps we pay because we are getting a good product at a good value (take note of that–the most important thing in any business model–adding value), and we decide how much of our payment goes to the creator (transparency–very important–we want to reward the creators–not the suit wearing leeches). Add in the bonuses that you get when you pay more than the average, and I think you have a pretty sustainable business model. Maybe not one that will work for everyone (we never said it would), but still workable.

        • Ardvaark

          Compelled to pay?
          I’m sorry but I only pay what I need and is worth the price, just like anyone who is economically sane.
          I’ve passed on some bundles because I had no interest in what was offered. No one is compelled to do anything.

          And by your logic people wouldn’t buy stuff if they could pirate. That just isn’t true, again with games you have steam, which massively reduced game piracy while at the same time boosting the indie game to never-before reached profits and popularity. Quite remarkable.

        • http://gene-poole.tumblr.com Gene Poole

          Stop shaking your finger at us and saying “watch out!! It won’t work forever!” The difference is there is evidence right here, right now, that it is working. Your doom and gloom about it not working eventually someday is so much bullshit and can not be evaluated on equal ground because it hasn’t happened. Shut the fuck up.

        • spookyserendipity

          bobmail, the reason the humble bundle succeeds is precisely because it utilizes the free market and (finally) offers consumers good products at fair prices. It gives consumers what they want, when they want it (“now”), and in an easy(ish)-to-use format.

          The humble bundle is priced fairly and allows people to decide what they are willing to pay for each bundle and, as such, represents the purest possible form of capitalism. It is essentially the polar opposite from the crony/vampire/lobbyist-Congressional/monopoly model which most large US corporations foist on consumers in nearly every market. In many markets consumers are given few product choices at fixed/colluded price points. The humble bundle is the “free market” at work – and it definitely works.

          If you are at all serious about curbing piracy via a means that involves an amicable and fair, free market process you should be championing ideas like the humble bundle, not figuring out ways to criticize its success. You seem to have the psychology of the market backwards. Those who wish to sell any product or service should always be striving to meet what the market actually demands/needs…not what sellers WISH it would provide for them.

          In point of fact, there is ample evidence that the frequent PC game sales on Steam, Amazon, Humble Bundle, and others are chiefly responsible for a noted resurgence in PC gaming. The only logical conclusion is that collectively these ideas have a far greater impact on curbing piracy than anything the RIAA or MPAA has ever done while creating GOOD WILL and long-term consumer mindshare from a customer base, rather than the derision/hatred/spiteful pirating that draconian antics obviously inspire far & wide.

          Companies would do well to use the carrot rather than the stick. 200+ years of capitalism and the more recent, specific evidence we have of these markets already proves this beyond a reasonable doubt.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “i just don’t think this tells us very much about what the world would be like if copyright were abolished.”

          The last few thousand years of human history does, however. The great artist has never wanted for much. Except, in a few cases, possibly sanity.

          Copyright has only existed in the last three hundred years but has not had the opportunity to conflict with free speech or property rights the way normal information control has – since the ability to copy has not been in the hands of everyone.

          As technological progress escalates it’s become ever more clear that copyright enforcement is in fundamental conflict with free speech and will become ever more so, the more we rely on true mass communication.

          Copyright was largely meaningless except as an anti-competitive tool in the 17th century. Today it lacks most or any positive effects, and what few positives it does have come with costs no sane man can sanction.

        • bobmail

          Umm, nice story – but you forget that up until a very short time ago in human history, we didn’t have the means to reproduce or distribute works in any meaningful way. The printing press as an idea is only about 700 years old, and really, Movable type is only about 600 years old.

          Music? The phonograph as an idea isn’t even 150 years old – copyright is older.

          Movies? Motion pictures are but a mere blip on human history, at about 100 years.

          Alas, looking back at “thousands of years” of history doesn’t really tell the tale, for the times before copyright really didn’t have the issues we face today, did they?

          Oh, and copyright isn’t an anti-competitive tool. However, those who claim that generally come off as tools.

        • BuddhaFacePalmed

          Uhh, let’s see…

          1. Starving artists – check
          2. Widening wealth gap – check
          3. Different sets of rules for those in power and those without – check
          4. Wars for religion and material goods – check
          5. Widespread propaganda and censorship – check

          Yup, totally unrelated issues

        • Liam .Jh

          Someone seems to forget sheet music, manuscripts and plays.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Let me fix that for you:

          “Oh, and copyright isn’t an anti-competitive tool. However, those who claim that generally come off as tools.”

          “…up until a very short time ago in human history, we didn’t have the means to reproduce or distribute works in any meaningful way.”

          And there we make the link.

          Copyright was introduced as a tool of religious and political persecution.

          It was implemented as an anti-competitive tool at a point where producing and distributing works was just becoming very popular.

          And today, even the stated purpose of copyright as a “protection mechanism” has fallen to pieces by the roadside.

          “Alas, looking back at “thousands of years” of history doesn’t really tell the tale, for the times before copyright really didn’t have the issues we face today, did they?”

          That is a singularly clueless comment to make, boibmail. History does indeed tell us a great deal of how culture was distributed in days long gone. Along with conflicts about paternity right and their proposed solutions. There are surviving law texts dating back to 500 BC in Greece about how far a protectionist idea is supposed to go.

          “The printing press as an idea is only about 700 years old, and really, Movable type is only about 600 years old…”

          *Face Meets Palm*

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi_Sheng

          Movable type is at least a thousand years old. Assuming no inventor thought of it before Bi Sheng did. Which puts the first example of variable prints at a solid thousand years ago, and Korea created metal type in the 12th century.

          Honestly, bobmail, can you do us a favor? Make one single claim which has any fact right at all. Just one.

          And perhaps we will start taking you seriously when you try to argue from that point.

        • suckadbob

          Lol, Your such a troll. You Talk about the printing press.

          Mayby you should actually learn about all the shit that caused with the wars.

          And that wasnt because people where copying stuff, thats because People where now able to read the bible in their native tong.

          I Think this article makes alot of sense. Once i buy something i own it. I Can do what i want with it. If i wish to shit on my copy of the newest Hollywood blockbuster then thats my right. If i wish to burn a copy for my friend, thats also My right as i own my rights to My film.

          Ps, Major corporations copy and steal products all the time, and get away with it, Whats that ? they can because they have the money to defend themselves? .. Bobmail, u talk like u know alot, but u dont know nothing about anything.

        • Ophelia Millais

          “Deserve”! Everyone thinks their poop is priceless.

          The book you linked to is an essay, a blog post on paper. Its marketing copy includes blurbs with hallmarks of reasoned discourse like “parasites” and “slackers”. Independent reviews are scathing [click], pointing out its numerous flaws and the author’s lack of insight.

          The author is former Brooklyn barista and failed novelist Chris Ruen, who, in 2002, at age ~20, gave up file-sharing because AudioGalaxy shut down. Yet he portrays himself as an authority on “freeloading”. In the book, he reveals that he got a chip on his shoulder after learning that some of his customers, who were members of NYC indie bands like MGMT and Vampire Weekend, were at that time only locally famous, barely getting by and living in crappier apartments than he—as if it were easy even for the relatively well-off to avoid living in a crappy apartment in NYC’s real estate bizarro-world.

          I didn’t read far enough to learn exactly how he determined what amount of money and lifestyle he felt these then-little-known indie bands were entitled to, and how he became convinced that it was piracy that caused them to fail to acquire that wealth. It wouldn’t matter; the entire proposition is ludicrous.

          Got any other recommended reading? Perhaps a printout of posts from The Trichordist?

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          You mean as when Paulo Coelho boosted his sales of physical volumes after presenting his work on Pirate Bay?

          Your comments, plainly put, are full of crap. Your personal opinion and beliefs do not rewrite historical fact.

        • Raff

          Can you show where Colhelo still does it? There are 100s of links to Colhelos “Pirate!” blogpost, but I don’t find any links anymore. Did his view of giving away his books change – or why are all links dead?

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Can you show where Colhelo still does it?”

          The torrent links are all dead? That would be a tragedy. Or is it just that by now his fans no longer need nor care that they are freely available from usenet and cyberlockers since they want them on the shelf?

          Why should Coelho even need to to more by this time?

        • bobmail

          That logic is perfect – it explains exactly why Rick’s idea that copyright slows progress is so full of crap. Clearly, if there is no way to work on something for a long period of time and make it pay well enough to do it, people just won’t bother. That slows progress way more than anything stopped because whining children can’t pirate it.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “That logic is perfect…”

          As in “Does not fit the facts?”. The logic may be perfect, if we just revise history to show that the assumption the logic is based on is not, in fact, demonstrably false.

          “…it explains exactly why Rick’s idea that copyright slows progress is so full of crap.”

          A logic loop based on falsified assumptions show that a statement is “crap”? Who knew?

          If historical fact must be overruled by your personal opinion in order to fit a hypothesis around it, this is normally a clear indication that you are talking out of your ass.

          It wouldn’t be the first time you were doing so either. Is this, like IT knowledge, an area you claim “expertise” in? Because similarly to then, even a five-year old can realize what you are saying isn’t, in fact, true.

          “Clearly, if there is no way to work on something for a long period of time and make it pay well enough to do it, people just won’t bother.”

          Because before copyright, music, art, and culture in general did not exist?

          That’s what you are claiming. You are also claiming FOSS was given up as a botch job. For that you can have a one-handed applause known colloquially as a “facepalm”.

          And you present this as a refutal of Rick’s rather paintaking and methodological fact-based presentations.

          Sorry, but to refute a fact-based presentation something more than just a one-fingered salute and some creative invective is needed.

        • bobmail

          Wow. Just Wow. You are a persistent little bugger. Totally misinformed, but persistent. Let’s start with the big lie first:

          “Because before copyright, music, art, and culture in general did not exist?”

          Nobody has ever claimed that, it’s a strawman argument. (and makes you a lying sack of shit again). However, if you look historically at things, you can understand why your claim is meaningless in current society. First off is the historical lack of distribution (see my comments above regarding the age of the printing press, recorded music,and movie as examples).

          Further, historically most “art” was created by kept pets, with rich nobles paying the way so that these artists could work. The nobles would often horde the work and keep it away from the general public for a generation, meaning that the public never really saw the work of their contemporary masters.

          Lacking systems for duplication and distribution, the concepts that exist today were not needed. There was only one painting, you owned it or you didn’t. Today, that same painting may be duplicated through various means and those copies sold, a very different situation from say 1000 years ago.

          If you take the time to understand history (and understand the context under which is occurred) you can understand why copyright came to be. Until that point, there just wasn’t an issue there.

          Your logic is pretty much “we didn’t need traffic laws 1000 years ago, so why do we need them now?”. Things change, situations change.

          As a society, we have very few “noblemen” out there any more who are willing and able to have kept pets to produce art. Our systems of creation and distribution have evolved in a manner that allows the masses to help pay for the creation of the stuff they like, rather than depending on rich people to toss money at something, giving away the results. It’s a huge advancement that has allowed us to move forward culturally at a pace never seen before in human times. More new music is created on a daily basis now than was created on a yearly basic 1000 years ago. Do you really want to return back to that state?

          Rick’s arguments are weak, because they are built on purposely not understanding the economics and the social implications of copyright, and instead looking forlornly at a single point and claiming to be blocked. It’s too bad that he is staring at the only rock in a smooth plain and complaining about the bumpy road.

        • BuddhaFacePalmed

          “If you take the time to understand history (and understand the context under which is occurred) you can understand why copyright came to be. Until that point, there just wasn’t an issue there.”

          Uhh, let’s see; First real copyright law in legalese, the Statute of Anne;

          Replacing the Licensing Act; an Act which conferred the Stationers’ Company, a guild of printers, the exclusive power to print—and the responsibility to censor—literary works.

          In 1694, Parliament refused to renew the Licensing Act, ending the Stationers’ monopoly and press restrictions.

          Over the next 10 years the Stationers repeatedly advocated bills to re-authorize the old licensing system, but Parliament declined to enact them. Faced with this failure, the Stationers decided to emphasise the benefits of licensing to authors rather than publishers, and the Stationers succeeded in getting Parliament to consider a new bill, aka The Statute of Anne.

          Previously, publishers would have bought the original manuscript from writers for a lump sum; with the passage of the Statute, they simply did the same thing, but with the manuscript’s copyright as well. The remaining economic power of the Company also allowed them to pressure booksellers and distributors into continuing their past arrangements, meaning that even theoretically “public domain” works were, in practice, still treated as copyrighted.

          TL;DR: Statute of Anne was still a screw-over by middlemen to both authors and the public.

          Try again, Baghdad Bob

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Totally misinformed, but persistent. Let’s start with the big lie first:”

          As in “Every time I’ve made a false claim, along comes S.D.M. and fucks it up by revealing facts are the other way around?”.

          Yes, bobmail, you are fooling people én másse with your grand assumptions.

          Said no one ever.

          “Nobody has ever claimed that, it’s a strawman argument.”

          Actuually, you have. Quite a lot of times. That you don’t understand what it was you claimed pegs you as a dyslectic or an illogical nincompoop.

          “(and makes you a lying sack of shit again).”

          It’s kind of sad how often the only counter you have is by spouting a load of lies on top of an invective.

          “However, if you look historically at things, you can understand why your claim is meaningless in current society…”

          I have, and to be blunt about it, bobmail, your analysis comes from someone who has been demonstrably wrong everytime he tried to put a fact up for perusal. History is as “strong” a point for you as IT, Law, or logic.

          “First off is the historical lack of distribution (see my comments above regarding the age of the printing press…”

          The comment which turned out to be wrong by about 700 years? After which you now keep babbling an entire brook’s worth of dissonant gibberish, ending with:

          “…you can understand why copyright came to be. Until that point, there just wasn’t an issue there.”

          There were laws regulating what we could call “copyright” 500 years BC in ancient greece. Very specific and very restricted, but apparently enough to tide a civilization over in which the prime mover was the distributor of information.

          As usual, all you present is a whopping wordwall of fast talk around “facts” which on closer scrutiny turn out to be 100% false. Nice.

          “Your logic is pretty much “we didn’t need traffic laws 1000 years ago, so why do we need them now?”. Things change, situations change.”

          No, my logic is “There is no need to invent new laws on how people are allowed to communicate since nothing has really changed in how people communicate”.

          My logic is also that civil and human rights must transcend temporarily granted privilege. At least “Anon” actually had the balls to claim he was fine with being a fascist. While you contort yourself like a chinese acrobat to get the same message out while remaining in the closet. Morbidly amusing, I guess.

          All you really bring to the table is the argument every tinpot dictator with an urge to restrict certain forms of communication has come with before you. And that recipe doesn’t taste better this time around.

          “More new music is created on a daily basis now than was created on a yearly basic 1000 years ago…”

          Oh, I think I know what comes next…

          “…Do you really want to return back to that state?”

          Let me quote your own words again:

          “Nobody has ever claimed that, it’s a strawman argument.”

          You just did.

          99% of what is needed to produce music is free for anyone with a computer at their hands today. For someone who claims to dislike strawmen you certainly put an army up there.

          “Rick’s arguments are weak, because they are built on purposely not understanding the economics and the social implications of copyright…”

          You mean weak as in quoting, chapter and verse, nobel prize winners, US founding fathers, and quite a few think tanks?

          I think I’ll have to accept Rick’s reasoning over the word of someone who can’t write one coherent sentence without presenting at least one untruth in it.

          Most of us do.

          Bobmail, why do you even keep trying? It must be painfully obvious that anyone with a working brain who reads a single sentence of what you keep claiming realizes straight off the bat that you are lying through your teeth and being abusive on top of it. The very caricature of the modern troll.

          And so all you keep on doing is shoot yourself in the foot. Like Nejtillpirater and “Anon” all you end up being is a large Poster Boy for the pirate cause.

        • Raff

          The only way to know if Falkvinge and others are right is to simply allow taking your latop into a cd shop and making any copy you want without paying. It must be a legal right to set up a table in the middle of the street and give away anything for anybody.

          Only then we know if anybody is willing to continue to do so, if there are other ways to finance things.

          As we have seen historically in Spain and South America, the only way many many artists had a living was selling stuff in countries with high copyright enforcement.

          When China started to impose Copyright laws to attract the west, their revenue in cinema and media production doubled and tripled every years since. You can still find every movie and every software collection in the streets. But now you have to go to certain “shady” places of the city the normal people wouldn’t go.

          Why should countries like Spain or China start enforcing copyrights if everything was striving and fine historically? Why, for example, where american produced and then spanish dubbed programs so high on every download list? Why do they need the foreign programs, since their “copyright free heaven” should have created millions of products every year?

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “It must be a legal right to set up a table in the middle of the street and give away anything for anybody.”

          Funny you should mention it because Swedish “fair use” comes very close to this scenario.

          “You can still find every movie and every software collection in the streets. But now you have to go to certain “shady” places of the city the normal people wouldn’t go.”

          Uh, like turn on the browser/torrent client, wait for half an hour and start watching?

          Welcome back, bobmail. Nice shiny new nick there.

          Too bad there are still very few people around too blind to spot your typical trademark of history revisionism.

        • http://www.facebook.com/jared.davis.9887 Jared Davis

          Bobmail I’ve watched you call everyone ignorant and refuse to look at this with an open mind cold it be possibly that the other side has some legitimate points too? For my two cents your argument is legit in a legal sense but, the argument is more about if copyright holders are doing the right thing and if the current copyright law is the right way to do things. Its a moral argument, not a legal one. By repeating yourself and citing the current copyright law for every objection coming your way is fallacy since the current law is what is in question. Also by saying what I sum up to,” Well, copyright is copyright, its the law deal with it.” Seems very simplistic and missing the larger point. I don’t think that your argument represents you as a person very well either I think you are better than that. On that note tell us in full detail why you think copyright law is perfect how it is. Maybe if we know where you are coming from you can be understood better

        • markh

          Your logic is full with holes, but what do you expect from an ignorant american. Here in the Netherlands in the 16th and 17th century, paintings were even hung in the kitchen of servants. The painters in those times were not well know but are now. In those times everyone even the lower class could afford paintings, of course the quality would be much lesser than the well known names like Rembrand, Rubens, Frans Hals etc but they had. There is even a painting of Rembrand of a scenery in a kitchen and there hung 3 paintings on the wall. So go back to your piehole since you apparently don’t know anything about paintings, or nobility

        • Raff

          And when everything is streamed, everything is only available with watermarks who have the penalty of a lifetime ban if shared – and all that crap, this whole discussion and the article is null and nil. Because if there is no medium to own, if there are only services, streams and $400 concert tickets, all this discussions are just…creative gymnastics.

          We already see where the industry is moving to (e.g. free2play games and streaming offers). Being “right” or arguing off a asymmetrical power made nothing better or even made anybody think. They just looked at their bottom line and made the decision to just fcuk everybody with this madness.

          The next Playstation will surely have a sell ban on games, because they never sell you a game. They sell you the “content bluray” while the game is on the cloud only, as a service, unsellable.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “And when everything is streamed, everything is only available with watermarks who have the penalty of a lifetime ban if shared – and all that crap…”

          I see you went to the “bobmail” university of technology, history and law.

          Half of what you said makes little sense and the other half is logically impossible to implement.

          “The next Playstation will surely have a sell ban on games, because they never sell you a game. They sell you the “content bluray” while the game is on the cloud only, as a service, unsellable.”

          You DID go to the bobmail school of tech, didn’t you?
          For one good reason as to why Sony if they choose to do so die instantly, see Assassin’s Creed and their “online-only” verification.

          Every time the cable drops, millions of legitimate customers looking at an anti-piracy message while the leaked copy of the game is used by pirates exclusively.

          Mr. Bobmail-clone, you are so far doing a very good job of impersonating bobmail himself, in his less ranting moments.

          And you too intend to spout nonsense for a few months until you storm off in a huff, as right on cue a suitable replacement comes along?

        • spookyserendipity

          Re: the PS4…if Sony chooses to kill used games and re-sales they will kill their console and, likely, the company. The Playstation division is the only profitable wing at Sony these days which keeps them marginally out of the red. Microsoft is licking their chops *hoping* Sony is dumb enough to do as you predict. :)

        • SoundnuoS

          Microsoft has no problem perma-banning pirates from X-box live:

          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19963727

          This is very likely to be the future. Buy the console, the games are in the cloud.

          In music and movies, a move to streaming as the only mode of delivery.

        • http://gene-poole.tumblr.com Gene Poole

          I wonder if you can provide a single example that backs up your thesis. Show me a single clearly obvious example of an innovation or creation that failed because there wasn’t enough profit available due to piracy. I’ll even take subjective evidence, as long as you can back it up with any measure of proof.

          I’m really serious here, I don’t think you can come up with anything, because I don’t think that has ever happened.

        • Raff

          Why are there patents on medicine? Why are there patents on many many hardcore stuff like cars and airplane-tech? If patents are some sort of heightened
          copyrights, why don’t you fly with a plane that has selected the most cheapest knockoff bolts they have found on some strange chinese website? And why not drop all that pills that sound like the right product?

          Show me one big program, one big TV show, one big 3d-movie or anything coming out of a country with low copyright protection. Spain for example had no copyright enforcement for decades and now the import, voila 99% of their software. It made no sense to write own software packages for Banking or Medical usage, because there was nobody to enforce it.

          You should speak to Spanish teachers, how they are annoyed by all this American views of things perpetuated by decades of imported media, since there is nothing home grown that has the same impact. The same goes for Greece and Brasil. And even parts of China.

        • spookyserendipity

          Patents and Copyright are 2 very different things.

          Re: planes, wellll they actually ARE built using the “lowest bidder” business model. So, technically you are already flying around in a plane made by the company who could make it the cheapest. Fail rates of parts have become rampant in the industry because of cost-shaving and under-the-table deals with Chinese warlords who push sub-standard steel that is then put into various components. How do you think the recent problem with the batteries in the Dreamliner came to be? ;) All of this happened because of unregulated greed, not because of the presence or lack of patents or copyrights.

          Do you have any experience understanding economics and the realities of modern business practices? I’m not being snarky saying that, but it seems to me you are barely treading water here.

        • Raff

          Selling the knockoff under false impression is the same as selling the cheapest offer because your production is just better then the competition? Yeah, you understand “business” and “economics” quite “fine”.

        • http://gene-poole.tumblr.com Gene Poole

          you’re deliberately obfuscating, equating patent with copyright (as well as trademark to some extent). They are not one and the same, they’re not even in the same genus.

          Come back when you know what the fuck you’re actually talking about.

        • SoundnuoS
        • http://gene-poole.tumblr.com Gene Poole

          The first one is a real shame. I have to attribute it to server maintenance costs as opposed to actual piracy costs, but since they’d be using sales to support server fees I’ll give it to you. I wonder why they didn’t block pirated copies if they could confirm that 90% of the players were running pirated copies? Same happens with minecraft but they use their own servers for the pirated players. Still, I’ll give you this one, and repeat that it’s a real shame.

          the second link is purely conjecture and opinion and as such is completely disregarded. It reminds me of Voltage Pictures and their complaints because they didn’t make as much from the hurt locker as they felt they should have. Moving along…

          The third link actually works against you because Dead Trigger is still around, albeit for free. It’s still updated too, which leads me to believe that people are making use of the in-app purchases (they are) and that as it’s on android, that there are also ad-based revenue that the developer is also profiting from. In truth, this goes to my long running argument that you innovate, not litigate, because they are still offering the app as a free version, but still profiting from it. They found a way to adapt and survive.

          The fourth link is not working for me. I assume that halo 4 is not coming to PC based on the link, and I assume that the reason is because of piracy, but that’s not a failure if it isn’t being released at all for the platform. One might suggest that as the PC is a direct competitor for the XBox 360, that MS doesn’t want to cannibalize their sales for the XBox. That certainly would have nothing to do with piracy.

          Now, with all that said, I did ask for one case, and you’ve given me that. I’d also state that if out of all the internet, you could only give me 4 video game cases, and of all of those only one was actually valid…I’d say that’s a pretty compelling case for how piracy is either not harmful a great deal of the time, or possibly even beneficial, as has been argued again and again here and elsewhere, but that’s an argument for another day.

          It is a shame about Battle Dungeon, all the same.

        • markh

          Who says most of as are whining children. I see only you whine of something of Prehistoric Times

        • Bobmule

          “the inability to control copyright provides a huge disincentive for creators to create”

          Aaaaahahahahahahaha. Go tell that to Google who are raking it in from the advertising on YouTube – 72 hours of video uploaded to its service EVERY MINUTE!!!

          Here, check out the stats:

          http://www.youtube.com/t/press_statistics

          And that’s just ONE mainstream site, without factoring all the other more specialised outlets for different sorts of media like Soundcloud, Vimeo, Flickr and Instagram to name but a few.

        • Ophelia Millais

          The fashion industry exists without copyright protection. Their solution, aside from trademarking, is to constantly innovate. The bottled water industry rakes in $100 billion a year, despite the abundance of free alternatives. The cable & satellite TV industry likewise competes quite well with free; no one needs to make it illegal for competitors to undercut them in the free market. The movie and music industries reported record sales last year, despite flourishing piracy.

          Only the dead-tree publishing industry is still struggling to adapt, but they’ll figure it out soon enough. My partner is an author, published by one of the major houses, and had no trouble finding inspiration to write while holding down a day job.

          By the way, when can we expect a new book from Harper Lee? She’s received quite a bit of “incentive” over the years.

        • Raff

          The fashion industry just needs a piece of $1 cloth to innovate. The innovation of a $100 million movie is another $100 million movie. Here, there is $10. You have ten new clothing designs. Who do I have to ask to get the $1 billion to innovate 10 movies?

          Or, if we already are “there”, new medicine? Just because someone farts 12 tracks for his “Farts, week 12 album” every week it doesn’t mean this is a) innovation b) is comparable with some other industries where farting isn’t enough. These are false equivalents to promote some leftist agenda, which is per se ok, but it should be said as that. And not “constructed” by arguments that doesn’t hold water. A fart.mp3 doesn’t heal a genetic mutation or fills cinemas.

        • LogicalReason

          Asinine. You’re simply clueless.

      • Porç0D/0

        The same right they had by stealing my country’s variety of triplets we selected in three hundred years. And they didn’t pay a cent. Copyright is theft.

      • PelouzeTF

        Yes, apparently some people believe that no matter how much time you spend and how much money – you’re creativity counts for nothing. Your creation should be copied, redistributed, re-sold and pretty much raped.

        If there’s nothing in it for you, they don’t care, as long as they get it for free, everything is A-ok.

        You have to love free-loaders right ;)

        • Guest

          Copyright is an attempt to con/troll information.

        • PelouzeTF

          Of course it is lol. And TF’s recent list of top downloaded torrents contains all sorts of information that is absolutely essential.

          My god, how dare anyone try to control the valuable information that is “Life of Pi”

        • http://twitter.com/CheapassFiction AeliusBlythe

          LOL.

          You defend copyright, then straight up admit that you don’t see creative work as valuable information, PelouzeTF?

          It may not be Cablegate, but creative works sure as hell are valuable information.

          I can’t imagine the impoverished mind that can’t see that. Just another demonstration that Copyright trolls don’t actually value artists at all.

        • PelouzeTF

          Incorrect

          My reply was in response to Guest saying that copyright is all and only about Control of information….which is clearly untrue.

          Naturally Life of Pi has value as entertainment. Not information.

          Should Pi have copyright protection, of course it should.

          Does Pi contain anything that should you not see it, deprives you of essential information. No.

          So Guest saying that copyright is about the control of information is ludicrous.

        • http://twitter.com/CheapassFiction AeliusBlythe

          Your still saying that creative piece ONLY has value as entertainment, and that as entertainment it is of lesser value because it doesn’t have *essential* information.

          As a creator, I find this incredibly offensive.

        • PelouzeTF

          Can you point me to the part where I said Entertainment value is less than Information ?

          Also, please explain what information Life of Pi contains that Guest seems to think – how did he put it….. “Copyright is an attempt to con/troll information.”…..?

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Because an attempt to control ANY type of information means you must control ALL types of information on a given medium.

          Online in practice this becomes the same as trying to in reality enforce a ban on people using certain words in private talks. Possible only by banning talking altogether.

        • i’m a creator

          ‘i’m a creator’ ‘as a creatorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr’ ‘I created the world’ ‘I creat a really bad vib no matter where I go’ ‘I’m a creatorrrrrrrrrrrrrrr’ OH FUCK OFF BITCH

        • spookyserendipity

          I find it funny how the same random troll pops up in these forums dropping F-bombs on people right and left, always using a different user name. What exactly is your vested interest in the current copyright bureaucracy that you become so inflamed with anger? Curious.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Naturally Life of Pi has value as entertainment. Not information.”

          Life of Pi is information. Transmitted in the same way and indistinguishable from a set of wikileaks data proving mass murder made by governments, whistleblower data sent out from behind a third world hellhole, or more commonly, distribution of open-source code and emails.

          In order to find and control one “type” of information of the ones given above, you must control all of them.

          And that is “Why information control is bad 101″.

          Typically even asking the question means the person doing the asking is either a fascist or very ignorant of what free communication and free speech entails.

        • BuddhaFacePalmed

          Yes, the Life of Pi contains essential information. Like how there are different paths to God(s) and each and every one of them is legit and have equal value.

          Or that life is beyond the petty squabbles of religion and the struggle for material possession.

          Heck, Life of Pi taught me more of philosophy than any university ever would.

        • PelouzeTF

          Mondays always starter brighter with a few LOLs.

          I was thinking of learning more about World War 2, where do you suggest I gain the essential factual information I need ?

          Saving Private Ryan or Guns of Navarone ? Because it’s so much better to educate from a fantasy right ;)

        • BuddhaFacePalmed

          How about Band of Brothers?

          P.S. I learned more about

        • PelouzeTF

          oh dear :(

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          That’s a sad commentary in and of itself, more appropriately applied to the teacher than to the movie.

        • BuddhaFacePalmed

          True, in my country the history books after 1989 only shows political propaganda. The illustrious World War 2 had only a chapter to it, and how our reigning government negotiated for independence, 5 chapters

        • i’m a creator

          Your work mmust be fucking shit if you are prepared to see it taken for free. All the time you bang on saying ‘I’m a creator, I’m a creator’ I bet the stuff you make sucks fucking monkey balls. If you ahd to relie on your work to pay your way through life you would be singing a differnt tune. SO shut your fucking pie hole you stupid, flat faced cunt. once again in a moronic drole …’I'm a creatorrrrrrrrr, I’m a creator’ It fucking sucks to be you BITCH!!!

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Ah, such eloquence. Now boys and girls, please take note of what the copyright industry truly looks like, above.

        • Guest

          Yes, I’m sure Yann Martel and Ang Lee would agree with you that Life of Pi is devoid of valuable information.

          Typical MAFIAA thug; claiming to stick up for the creators out of one side of your mouth while disrespecting the utter shit out of them from the other.

        • PelouzeTF

          Yanns novel is in fact fantasy adventure. Do you know how far that is from information ?

          So maybe you should quit with your BS that its information. its entertainment.

          So…..ummmm….I disrespected absolutely no one.

          Nice try Guest ;)

        • ScrewEwe2

          It’s infotainment IMHO.

        • spookyserendipity

          So is Fox News. I think Life of Pi has more “reality” to it, however.

        • Guest

          “Do you know how far that is from information ?”

          Yes. The distance between information and entertainment is zero.

          nformation |ˌinfərˈmā sh ən|
          noun
          1 facts provided or learned about something or someone
          2 what is conveyed or represented by a particular arrangement or sequence of things

          You’re saying the Life of Pi contains no value. Which is a massive insult to both the creators of the book and movie. Not that you care, of course: in typical MAFIAA fashion the only thing you give a shit about is exploiting creators and taking their money, not what they have to say or the value of their art. They’re just cattle to you.

          Bad try, Peloser.

        • PelouzeTF

          “You’re saying the Life of Pi contains no value. ”

          Where did I say that ? – jeez, can you switch the intelligence on……even just a little bit, it would be much appreciated.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Where did I say that ?”

          In your original comment, and in every comment following it. Unless you possess a startling redefinition on how to interpret and read common english.

          - jeez, can you switch the intelligence on……even just a little bit, it would be much appreciated.”

          You mean understanding english as the dictionary definitions have it means being “unintelligent”? Reading comprehension is actually bad, somehow?

          Try warning people when you are about to employ artistic license in order to alter facts, words and definitions to a “what-if” paradigm and things will go much smoother.

        • PelouzeTF

          I know what I said in my original comment but no where did I say the “life of Pi contains no value”.

          Please find the segment that you’re referring to and highlight it in your next post in this thread, where I categorically say “life of Pi has no value”

        • Zumzum

          “My god, how dare anyone try to control the valuable information that is “Life of Pi”"

          Interpreted in the sarcastic context in which it was made, your original comment suggests that you seen no ‘valuable information’ in Life of Pi. It’s perhaps not what you meant, but it reads along those lines. ;)

        • PelouzeTF

          Its really down to how a person interprets the word information.

          If anything and everything is information regardless of factual content, legitimate source, context etc – then even fart jokes are information.

          I prefer to be more discerning than that.

        • Zumzum

          Damn you sir. My fart app is intellectually superior to all other fart apps!!! ;)

        • PelouzeTF

          Sounds like you made the correct choice ;)

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “…then even fart jokes are information.
          I prefer to be more discerning than that.”

          Be as discerning as you wish to be. It doesn’t change the fact that yes, even fart jokes are information.

          In the real world and logically, information can only be handled one way. Which makes a fart joke, life of Pi, or a whistleblower exposure on toxic spills one and the same as pertains how they must be handled.

          That anyone can say fart jokes or “life of Pi” have either meaning or context is entirely due to a subjective judgement made by an individual.

          You are, in short, arguing for one set of the totally imaginary having a different legal status than another such set.

          So much for “freedom of religion”.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “So…..ummmm….I disrespected absolutely no one.”

          Except Common Sense, who may, it’s true, be inured to beatings by now.

          Because in order to control any information, you must control ALL information. “Life of PI” as transmitted between A and B online is indistinguishable from highly confidential and personal information online – until someone unpacks the message and reads it.

          At which point it’s too late to say “Oh, damn, this isn’t ‘Life of Pi’, we shouldn’t EVER be reading this”.

          And unless you’ve missed the last ten years of IT progress, that’s exactly where we are at right now.

        • PelouzeTF

          I still didn’t disrespect the creators of Pi as Guest accused and being that he can’t differentiate between real information and a fantasy novel, you can point your common sense stick at him for even suggesting it

          And I don’t see why in the digital age, control over some information types means control over all information at all. But thats where we differ, you see impossibilities and I see a possible compromise.

        • MadAsASnake

          there are other interpretations. Ang Lee gives one at the end.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “…being that he can’t differentiate between real information and a fantasy novel…”

          Because there is none.

          There may be a difference between information useful in a certain context and information not useful in the same context but information is information.

          Life of Pi, the ever-mentioned fart jokes and the four-color cutout of the periodic tables are all similarly useful in constructing a house, for instance.

          Life of Pi is useful information for someone interested in oriental fantasy. Fart jokes for the average five year old. The periodic table for a chemist.

          All can be found “entertaining” to someone as well, providing use.

          Are you trying for a logic loop where the outcome by necessity is that chemical formulas and numbers must be copyrighted? Because that’s the only logical result of trying to separate entertainment and information.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “My god, how dare anyone try to control the valuable information that is “Life of Pi”"

          A question that becomes very relevant as soon as the enforcement methods include veto rights over everyone else’s property rights as well as what amounts to government-sanctioned espionage, large-scale, on it’s own citizenry.

          Really, that question of yours is answered as soon as someone mentions the words “SOPA, ACTA and PIPA”.

        • spookyserendipity

          You’re kind of missing the point. lol

        • Anyone

          if you can’t monetize your creativity that is YOUR problem, not OUR problem

        • PelouzeTF

          Strange that, because last time I looked it was those convicted of copyright infringement and contributory copyright infringement that are receiving the fines and jail terms.

        • Anyone

          because the law is perverted by lobbyists, and doesn’t represent the will of the people anymore

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Strange that, because last time I looked it was those convicted of copyright infringement and contributory copyright infringement that are receiving the fines and jail terms.”

          Yes, very strange. Rosa Parks must have thought the same, as did Nelson Mandela.

          All the one did was take a seat on a bus, and the other was only guilty of attending meetings.

          But I suppose both must have considered it strange and dubious that they should be subjected to fines and imprisonment over their actions.

          And yet, reading back, it’s quite easy to see columnists expressing themselves identical to how you currently do. Because they challenged a paradigm upheld by some.

        • spookyserendipity

          Fascists are a strange breed, are they not? The times change, but their warped view of reality and freakish need for control is multi-generational.

        • spookyserendipity

          Yes, because jailing little girls and/or out-of-work poor people who had their jobs off-shored who download some music or movies is definitely the way to fix the problem long term. lol

        • Left

          Don’t know if closetothetruth is real or just a poser.

          Yes, artists might have more motivation to create
          if they are able to earn money from their art,
          the bad side is, they’d become lazy and start to make
          e.g. average Hollywood movies, just to easily sell.

          Read about the movie “The Plague” [2006]
          and how the producers ruined
          the work of the writers and director
          who wanted to make an interesting movie,
          then producers edited the movie, in post-production,
          to make it a marketable horror movie.

          Now, that you’re acting like if you are an artist
          who’s afraid to show their artworks,
          you won’t be able to earn money,
          neither show your talent, if you have any,
          I don’t know why you’re complaining,
          you’re not part of that world, only a spectator
          or maybe just a pro-copyrighter.

          Humans will always create art,
          movie studios will keep selling discs and tickets,
          people will always pay to hear live concerts
          and if people can’t afford a product,
          won’t buy it, will just ignore it
          or will manage to watch/hear it some day.

          Before the internet, I used to watch
          all those videos, when they were broadcast on TV.

        • PelouzeTF

          Actually, I am part of that world, have been for 10 years.

          Now that we’ve got that out of the way……what is it that you do exactly ?

        • BJonesTF

          Because income is guaranteed if you spend above a certain amount on it?

          Or did you mean the free-loaders, who made a deal for a certain langth of protection, and then wanted more protection, again at tax payers expense, without giving anything back? Or those who want a government to finance and collect information on a civil matter and fund the protection of what they see as their income stream? Those freeloaders?

          You’re right. Those freeloaders are scum

        • closetothetruth

          and what do you think about IBM earning millions off the work of Linux programmers, who get nothing?

        • Anyone

          IBM earns those millions with mostly Linux support
          that is a service that they offer and of course they can earn something off it

          they don’t earn millions by simply selling Linux

        • closetothetruth

          did I say IBM sells Linux? I did not, and it does not. It uses Linux in many of the “solutions” it sells, and as such, avoids the costs of either developing its own in-house OS, or licensing another vendor’s property. It saves a huge amount of money by not having to pay either one of those costs. Those savings are directly the result of the uncompensated labor the Linux crowd has done. I don’t deny that works for some people; eliminating copyright will entail it must work that way for everyone, and that is a nightmare.

        • Signal

          So, you’re complaining for people behind Linux
          being they have chosen that path.
          What they do, it’s like the artist who decided
          to publish his/her literary work
          as an anonymous author.

          Some people probably earned money by selling
          transcriptions, anyway, in a case like that,
          they showed their respect by saying:
          “it’s from an anonymous author”.

          Now, there’s a PC game based on RPG books [1991],
          “Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines” [2004],
          there are fans who made and are making MODs
          for that game and they are not simple modifications,
          for example, the “Bloodlines Antitribu” mod,
          it’s a project which is being developed
          a few years ago, it will be like a whole new game
          and they’re even adding new voices
          for their characters and a lot of things.

          When it will be finished, they will share that for free
          http://bloodlinesantitribu.com/
          and that sign of respect, it’s because
          that game is great, not only the PC game,
          even it’s source material and lore.

          The studio who developed the PC game
          no longer exists, even though,
          they know it was “Troika Games”.

          Now if you have noticed that IBM is using Linux,
          that must be “enough” for their developers.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “It saves a huge amount of money by not having to pay either one of those costs. Those savings are directly the result of the uncompensated labor the Linux crowd has done.”

          Being ignorant is one thing…but you just crossed the border into flagrant insanity.

          When IBM uses open-source platforms to build a model that means the people who built and designed those platforms – the linux-crowd, as it were – are now suddenly highly paid experts.

          In short, IBM is indeed giving something back, the same way any creator or designer would get a lot back if a major industry started throwing your name around, along with the tools you were known to have created.

          Boy, whatever you are on, you need to stop taking it.

        • spookyserendipity

          Perhaps I was too nice in my response to him, because the word “insanity” did enter my head once or twice as I read and re-read his post trying to decide if he was trolling or actually being serious. lol

        • spookyserendipity

          Are you kidding with this post or are you trying to make a serious point? You do realize that if you’re being serious then you have absolutely no idea how markets work, right?

        • Guest

          And those Linux programmers ask for nothing.

          Where is the problem?

          “eliminating copyright will entail it must work that way for everyone”

          AHAHAHAHA

          WHAT

          THE

          FUCK?

          So sweet glorious copyright is the law responsible for making sure companies pay their employees?

          I gotta hand it to you, man. I thought MAFIAA trolls didn’t get any crazier than bobmail. But you just hit it out of the fucking park.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Well…he’s not quite as bad as “Anon” – our own dear Baghdad Bob – but he does come close.

          Question is whether he’s being a clown on purpose because he’s certainly mastered the art of willful ignorance and history revisionism to a degree I have only before seen used by “Nejtillpirater”.

          The irony is also in his nick. “Closertotruth” when not a single statement he presents is accurate and sometimes so far off the mark he’s literally in la-la land.

          Then again, he does have one point.

          From a copyright lawyer’s perspective, copyright is indeed the law responsible for making sure companies pay their employees

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Great?

          Since the IBM programmers have to release software founded on GNU/Linux as FOSS, that means everyone gets, as a programmer, better tools at their disposal.

          Meaning in comparison that the carpenters all get better tools since everyone publishes the ones which work better at given tasks.

          And if IBM can turn this to profit by ensuring their programmers are the most skilled then this is how a market works.

        • Imgonnahurtyourbottom

          We think nothing. There’s nothing stopping you from earning millions of their work either. What’s your problem with IBM earning millions selling services based on software that is licensed to be used in such a way? Weird thing to raise, unless of course you’re trying to prove that abolishing the copyright model wouldn’t affect a persons ability to make money from something they do.

        • PelouzeTF

          No, Income is not guaranteed. Every one that creates their own materials is aware of that.

          As for the rest, where’s your source ?

        • DaintyStevie

          “As for the rest, where’s your source ?”

          It appears you don’t follow the copyright news much. Here’s one such example:

          http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/sep/12/musicians-copyright-extension

        • PelouzeTF

          That’s probably not the source that Bjones was referring to. No mention is made regarding expense to taxpayers etc.

          But anyway, looking at that article, what you’re saying is that some people have issues with UK music creators earning income from their works over a period of copyright, even though that actual copyright term is identical worldwide amongst the largest media producing countries?

          Can you explain the issues ?

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Your creation should be copied, redistributed, re-sold and pretty much raped.”

          A nice little rant with much venom directed against the “first sale” doctrine…or were you just comparing copying a file with forcing down a screaming woman?

          Either way you need to work both on your logic, your common sense, and your humanitarian outlook.

        • PelouzeTF

          We’re not talking tangibles but digital.

          So the doctrine has nothing to do with how people treat digital products and file-sharing.

          The tangible nature of the product is what defines the doctrine.

          Feel free to work on your own logic and common sense.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “We’re not talking tangibles but digital.

          So the doctrine has nothing to do with how people treat digital products and file-sharing.”

          OK, so if the digital equivalent of “rape” isn’t bad or worth condemning according to you then basically copyright infringement isn’t really worth arguing about, is it?

          Either “rape” is a terrible term to employ – or it isn’t. Both interpretations have consequences for the impact of your original statement.

          Logically speaking, you just headed down Morton’s Fork. Either you admit you were speaking gibberish, or you admit to filesharing indeed being a form of “rape” in which case we have to employ an entirely different logic which renders you no more credible.

          Which is it?

        • PelouzeTF

          Um, really ?

          Already I see one thing that I didn’t say in your post.

          As for terms, its up to you whether you want to make posts about chosen words that you don’t agree with. The context is obvious.

          Logically speaking ?

          Dude, you can’t start paragraph with “logically speaking”, when just last post you referred to a doctrine that carries almost no relevance whatsoever to digital media. I have to try and make sense of your posts and when they include falsehoods, I find your “logically speaking” a little tough to swallow.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Are you going down the bobmail route of trying to pretend you don’t know common syntax?

          1) You make a comparison of filesharing to rape.

          2) You then try to make the claim your terminology wasn’t “bad” as a comparison because there was a difference between tangible and digital.

          3) It follows that you were either using flagrant – and highly offensive – hyperbole in lieu of an argument.

          Or you are defending your use of the term by diluting it’s effect as long as it pertains to digital media.

          Either way your logic makes little sense, but that is the inescapable conclusion.

          “As for terms, its up to you whether you want to make posts about chosen words that you don’t agree with. The context is obvious.”

          If by “context” you mean “redefining the dictionary” or “newspeak” as envisioned by Orwell, then yes. Otherwise, no.

          That is why it’s not recommended to pup up a highly unambiguous word or sentence and then insist you can use it to build an argument countering what the basis of your argument actually says.

          “Dude, you can’t start paragraph with “logically speaking”, when just last post you referred to a doctrine that carries almost no relevance whatsoever to digital media.”

          Let’s repeat your own words here…

          “”Your creation should be copied, redistributed, re-sold and pretty much raped.”"

          I call that a rant aimed at a number of things and indeed inclusing first sale.

          “Dude”, you can’t very well just go back and revise history on what you yourself said.

        • PelouzeTF

          1) I use the word rape along with copied, redistributed, re-sold to describe how some downloaders and uploaders treat (in this case) digital copy-written media. Check the different meanings, casting aside the obvious sexual description which you seem so fixated on, you’ll also find the commonly used: “To plunder or pillage”.

          2) No I didn’t. I’ve got no idea where you pulled that BS from. When I was referring to digital and tangible products it wasn’t regarding the word rape but, the doctrine.

          3) How is a word that is commonly used to describe plunder and pillage highly offensive ?

          Obviously its not the inescapable conclusion as you put it. And there has been absolutely no revision on history, whether you happen like it or not…..of course with you, it will always be “not” regardless of the facts.

        • spookyserendipity

          If a product/service is good, it will sell and the creator will make money. If it is crap it will not sell. Fascism can’t force people to buy things they don’t need or want at prices higher than they can afford.

      • Ardvaark

        The process of printing (journals and what-not) improved since the dawn of the industrial revolution.

        Should the creators of the modern printers have to pay to the ones who initially produced a printer? Or the creators of older printers on which the newer ones were based and improved on?

        The first at something usually takes longer to finish the creation and the creations that stem from that usually take less time to be completed. But the pioneer also got to make a profit sooner while the competition caught up. That’s just how things work.

        Copyright monopolists actually want to stop improvement by disallowing such things as building on other’s work for as long as 120 years!

        Unacceptable.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Should the creators of the modern printers have to pay to the ones who initially produced a printer? Or the creators of older printers on which the newer ones were based and improved on?”

          For the answer to that question you might want to look at some of the patent battles xerox were involved in.

        • Ardvaark

          It wouldn’t surprise me.
          It’s a shame how these kind of things is abused and the same abusers then are the first to complain when things don’t go their way.

          I’ll have a look on that.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          And while you do, don’t forget to look at SCO and how their creative use on patents had people joking about licensing suspiration.

        • MadAsASnake

          and the irony is that what they want to stop you building on is already built on what came before

      • Scary_Devil_Monastery

        “…you have a right to copy and distribute the book that i spent 3 years writing without my getting any sort of payment for my work–that’s unselfishness?”

        Straw man much?

        If you spent 3 years writing a book and sold it, good for you. If I copy a book my friend bought for myself, at my own expense and using my own materials, then the idiot who comes around screaming I don’t have a right to do with my property as i wish is only comparable to having a random stranger walking through my front door and starting to tell me what I can and can not do with the tools in my own home.

      • Hogspace

        Wrong direction of argument. It’s up to you to figure out how to work with technology. Not for us to restrict technology to fit with you.
        Business models are canned by technology evolution all the time. Rail was ruined by road. Wood shipbuilding by steel. Radial engines by jets.

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      Well, no, but rather it’s “because they can”.

      The copyright industry found a way to make people pay again, again, and again for one and the same already created product with no further effort needed on their behalf.

      To paraphrase Falkvinge and extend into a metaphor, they invented a method to sell an IKEA chair and then got the government to decree anyone sitting in that chair henceforth generated a fee to be paid to them by someone.

      As long as that chair required cumbersome and expensive machinery to manufacture, this paradigm could be upheld. When people started copying the chair, it could not.

      At which point in time, they turn to the government, bleating in outrage over the fact that they stand to lose their ponzi scheme of making people pay infinite dividends. As this kind of opportunist always has through history.

      And if the government is sufficiently lobbied against, it will cheerfully twist market law to hinder new industries, new technologies, or new infrastructure which threaten the old paradigm.

      Such as when the coachdriver guilds lobbied the UK government to mandate that no car could ever be run without having a man waving a flag moving at walking pace in front of them.

      • Pelham123

        “Well, no, but rather it’s “because they can”.”

        Truthfully, I think it is more of a Holy Grail type of thing … a crazy long shot that law and public opinion would grant them ownership of other people’s private property. They have to try. The potential reward is just too great.

        Or maybe I should say “was” because I suspect this war is already over and they’ve moved on. SOPA/PIPA was the big push and it filed.

      • pro IP rights

        That’s how creators make their money, they have to own the intellectual property rights of their creations. Otherwise someone pays and then other people make tons of money with their work.

        Virtually every work of art of after the industrial era and many technological inventions only exist because creators have ownership rights over their work, so that if someone want to profit from it, they have the right of a fair share of the profits, rather than being just made of fools while other people make money with their work, just because they have the means of mass production.

        You bet your ass that everyone who whines about copyrights being unfair, a “monopoly” and whatnot, would rapidly change their minds if they had created something that could be considerably profitable to themselves. It’s only when it’s someone else’s living on the stake that they think otherwise. At very least they would want to work under work-for-hire conditions, rarely people would work for free, happily allowing someone else to have all the profits of their work.

        And collaborative stuff like wikipedia aren’t a good analogy, at least not until most books, movies and whatever are being made by the collaboration of hobbyists, with no expectation of financial gain. Surely most people who whine against IP rights aren’t doing anything, they just want to have the work done by others, for free, and perhaps for their own profit. Even stuff some hobbyists put on youtube is made with the expectation of financial gain.

        Those capitalist pigs, wanting to make a living! How dare they!

        • fbot

          “That’s how creators make their money”

          Making money is not the problem here. Trying to hoard usage rights in order to facilitate the money making, that’s the problem.

          Mass producing digital goods is extremely cheap, it should not be the creator’s only form of income. Services rendered (online servers, live concert’s, special edition crap, etc) should be their primary income.

        • the_prof

          Absolutely. I think some balance between the two extremes needs to be struck.

          And actually, I don’t think it’s quite so complex as they make out.

          I’m certainly going to be one of the people at the front line protesting that the likes of Microsoft and Sony cannot dictate to me that I can’t sell a game I’ve bought for one of their platforms on the second-hand market.

          Also, once I’ve bought a copy of a film, game, music, miscellaneous media, I am as sure as heck never going to pay for it again in any other format.

          This model is becoming more viable to implement, and once all that is sorted out, I don’t think they can argue.

    • Hogspace

      We seem to be forgetting about the kickbacks they get from blank media already. My suggestion would be £1 a month on every Internet connection but in turn the entire notion of online copyright goes away.

      • Zumzum

        But who gets the £1? Only the major labels? What about the millions of independents? How would it be fair if only 3 or 4 labels received a kickback from internet connections and every other producer of digitally reproducible content, from musicians and filmmakers to software devs, receive nothing.

        Better just to reform copyright law to better reflect the norms of society.

        • Hogspace

          So sort out how the funds are distributed.

        • Zumzum

          Just don’t have them in the first place, because the only way to sort out how it’s distributed is to pull figures out of your ass (something the MAFIAA is expert in) about how many ‘sales’ you WOULD have got if not for piracy. How do you do the same if you’re one of 15 million indie artists? Do you each claim to have ‘lost’ 3 times as many ‘sales’ as the MAFIAA giants? How do you prove that and how do they disprove it? Can’t be done I’m afraid – better just to let people copy for personal use and not-for-profit.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Well, Falkvinge thinks it’s a terrible idea with a blank internet levy.

          For a few reasons, primarily:

          1) Who gets to distribute and select it?
          2) How the hell would you measure it, particularly for small creators?
          3) Although very few mind porn it could be problematic for a state to have to fork over some estimated 35% of the earnings in such a scheme to the sex industry.

    • Twatter

      The worth of the shiney disk and why I want to share it is defined by the information (not data) on it… not the fact it’s shiney, or that I’ve burnt it, or the material value of the polycarbonate.

      I was looking forward to reading this based on the title, there are genuine injustices going on right now, and serious reforms that need to be implemented.

      But this article is just fucking dumb.

      Why share something if it has no value to anyone?

      The thing you’re sharing has been paid for by other people. I’ll fight for your right to share it, but the moment you forget the artists, technicians and all the REAL MONEY they spent on tools and materials… you’re on your fucking own, mate.

      Love will only get you so far in this world.

  • John

    I wouldn’t Steal a car, although I would get a exact same copy of the car.

    • Guest

      you wouldn’t steal.. a spaceship!
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWPfcEOr2Yg&hd=1

    • guest

      Actually, I would steal a car if the process was:
      1) Touch the car
      2) Wait 30-120 minutes
      3) The car is mine

      • Ophelia Millais

        Well, a copy of the car would be yours. He’d still have his.

        • CloudMage

          im fine with this

    • fortuzero

      Why wouldn’t you steal a car? Because you’re too scared or you lack the technical expertise? Let’s assume it’s a car on a forecourt, not sold to an individual yet. Would your conscience feel better about that?

  • Holololol

    absolutely this is at the core of the issue and this is why eventually the copyright trolls will ultimately lose, in court, money and customers, and when they finally come around it will be too late other companies will have beat them to the model they should be using.

    • spookyserendipity

      That’s the inevitable result. Collectively, the media companies and their trade association whores/thugs are convinced they can use the stick rather than the carrot to force the market to change. It’s never worked in history before, and it won’t work now. Eventually, they will fall by the wayside to companies who see and understand the opportunities. For all it’s flaws, for example, Netflix is one example of a company which is at least trying to actually offer what the market (people/consumers) demand, rather than trying to force/shoehorn the people to continue using the sellers narrow minded and obsolete business model.

  • PastTense

    Clearly you don’t understand the concept of intellectual property:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property

    Without protection for intellectual property little is going to produced (and the area of patents is probably more important than copyright).

    People here mostly don’t care if you copy something for your personal use; but I think most people here have a very negative view of you making money off of someone else’s intellectual property without compensating them.

    • Anyone

      look at the FOSS sector if you want to see how much is produced without protection of intellectual property
      in fact it is so successful that most of the internet is powered by FOSS (Linux, Apache, PHP, MySQL, etc.), most smartphones run FOSS (Android)

      intellectual property is not needed.
      the world would work just as well if not better without it

      • closetothetruth

        & look how many huge companies profit off of FOSS software, but since FOSS entails no protections, themselves are able to keep most of what they do–the most important stuff–proprietary and closed.

        it should give anyone pause who sees FOSS as “liberating” and “anti-corporate” that there is such a significant amount of corporate power (Google, Facebook, IBM, many others) now on its side.

        Effectively, FOSS people work for those companies for free. And that, you say, is freedom.

        • Anyone

          they work on it out of their free will

          and while linus torvalds is no bill gates he can live quite nicely off of his reputation alone

        • closetothetruth

          linus torvalds is one guy. reputation alone does not pay for even his meals, but that’s not my point.

          my point is to ask: why is it such a great and noble thing that IBM gets to make huge profits off of work the Linux crowd did for free? why is that better than the Linux folks being paid for their work?

        • Guest

          Because, and although I hate the Linux crowd for thinking making things free is more important than making them well, they write software out of sheer passion. And not a selfish profit motive. That is indeed a great thing.

          Looks like somebody can’t into altruism. Sociopath much?

        • closetothetruth

          did i complain about the Linux crowd, or about IBM making millions off of them? I don’t know how the Linux folks support themselves, but I think human dignity includes the right to be paid for one’s work (that’s also in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, not typically a sociopath’s favorite document, but whatever). My point was not that there is anything wrong with Linux giving itself away and letting IBM soak it for millions–my point is that eliminating copyright will force everyone else to do that too. I believe I am being directly altruistic by worrying about the elimination of one of the main ways our society ensures people are paid for their hard work.

        • Guest

          “did i complain about the Linux crowd, or about IBM making millions off of them?”

          Both.

          “My point was not that there is anything wrong with Linux giving itself away and letting IBM soak it for millions”

          Oh? Then you shouldn’t have said there’s something wrong with it. What’s the matter, your fingers got away from you and typed some things you didn’t mean?

          Surely you can’t be backpeddling.

          “my point is that eliminating copyright will force everyone else to do that too.”

          That is so insane words fail me.

        • Ardvaark

          There are other ways to profit from FOSS.

          For example, services. Several FOSS companies get paid to give support to a company running their systems, or to train a company’s employees on how to use the product (or even understand the inner workings of it) in a much faster and efficient way than if you told your employee to learn it by himself.

          Or they can have a Paid business package. MySQL has a free community package and a paid corporate package for example.

          Again, copyright proven useless

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “why is it such a great and noble thing that IBM gets to make huge profits off of work the Linux crowd did for free? why is that better than the Linux folks being paid for their work?”

          Again…you mean to say that having several large companies implement the models you made and are an expert in is not a good thing?

          See, as IBM picking up your models turns you from a geek with a peculiar interest into a highly paid expert and a top name, I’m wondering exactly what you mean by “pay”.

          Your way, those experts would still all be geeks with peculiar hobbies out of which only one would prosper and the rest have to pay even to develop anything useful.

          Don’t even try arguing the open source sector – it’s quite obvious you know nothing of it.

        • marxmarv

          Look how many small companies and individuals profit off the lack of a barrier to entry. Copyright is rightly a bargain, not a chattel. To take it as a property right nullifies every reason the public should agree to abide by such an exclusive right.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “…but since FOSS entails no protections, themselves are able to keep most of what they do with it–the most important stuff–proprietary and closed, and for their own profits.”

          Ignorant as can be.

          FOSS does entail a great deal of protection. It means you can not make software based on FOSS “proprietary”. In order to even try you have to jump through hoops the way Steve Jobs did with MacOSX, and even then, Darwin, which is the core of MacOSX, still remains open.

          Upon which core you can create and implement any damn GUI you like – and the open source sector has indeed done so, incorporating many of the innovations Apple created for Darwin in the next version.

          “Effectively, FOSS people work for those companies for free.”

          Effectively those companies work for those FOSS people free.

          “And that, you say, is freedom.”

          That, we might call market synergy.

          Are you using creative license to redefine “freedom” or should we read the word with your understanding of it being defined as “Newspeak”?

      • Spongebob and Patrick

        “the world would work just as well if not better without it”

        the world would be MUCH better without it

        it’d take the ego out of art/modding/innovation, where you make/remix/build on what you want in peace instead of fear

        IP creates an environment of arrogance, entitlement and fear, where you are a slave to the right’s holder, and everything is brought to a screeching halt for their ego

    • http://twitter.com/Falkvinge Falkvinge

      I have studied industrial-intellectual protectionism (IP) for well over two decades, and every single piece of evidence shows it prevents progress, creativity, and innovation.

      • SoundnuoS

        Show evidence, please.

        • Anyone

          Watt’s steam engine has been mentioned below

        • SoundnuoS
        • BJonesTF

          “The second downside of the patent system is the devastating effect it has on incremental innovation. From 1786 to 1800 there was no increase in the duty of steam engines at all, as Boulton and Watt successfully sought to prevent competition by suppressing innovation.

          Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/do-patents-encourage-or-hinder-innovation-the-case-of-the-steam-engine/#ixzz2Jsp833Lv

          OR you could try any steam museum. I suggest either the Liverpool Museum (just down the road from the terminus of the first steam train line) or the Science Museum in London, which has a 1777 Watt engine (Old Bess)

          They’ll tell you the same thing.

        • Readthefuckingsite

          there’s plenty of evidence on this fucking site, if you’re so damn interested in it you’d go look for it yourself instead of wanting us to hold your hand

          but, wait, that’s exactly what you want us to do, because you couldn’t give a damn about the actual evidence, you just want to give us a hard time, i bet even if somebody did give it to you you wouldn’t look at it and say how much of “lie” it is, typical copyrestriction asslicker

        • SoundnuoS

          This site hardly qualifies as anything even close to unbiased evidence.

        • http://twitter.com/Falkvinge Falkvinge

          The advantage of facts is that they’re true whether you like them or not. Interpretations of facts are biased. Facts themselves aren’t.

        • SoundnuoS

          Present facts, please.

        • Porç0D/0

          Browse his articles and you’ll find plenty. Move and search.

        • SoundnuoS

          I’ve looked. Haven’t read everything but what I’ve seen hasn’t convinced me so far. Point me in the right direction.

        • closetothetruth

          i would also appreciate specific links.

        • BJonesTF

          Evidence? lots of it around.
          Where’s the evidence for the copyright monopolist position? There isn’t any. Remember the most upsetting part of the Hargreaves review? “copyright policy should be evidence based”

        • SoundnuoS

          About the steam engine. 1 case, 200 years ago. http://global.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/271981/Jonathan-Hornblower

          “Hornblower’s invention, patented in 1781, was a steam engine with two cylinders, a significant contribution to efficiency.”

          He actually patented it. He was stopped from extending the patent by Watts. If it truly was revolutionary that shouldn’t have happened and we have no way of knowing how things would have gone with modern implementations of patent law.

          As evidence for copyright law in modern times I give you the music industry. An incredible amount of artists, records made and labels created in the last 60 years.

          All because it was very sellable and profitable. This profitability and ability to sell has been eroded during the last 10 years when the customers started circumventing copyright.

        • Liam.Jh

          Same old Bullshit.

          Record industry and Movie makers are still recording massive profits yearly

        • SoundnuoS

          Income from record sales is down ~50% since 1999. Is this not an erosion of profitability?

        • Liam . Jh

          Well I suggest they get with the program and start adjusting their business models, and I still see independent artists making music and enjoying making a living for themselves not third party mafiosa’s

        • Zumzum

          That’s because very few people buy records anymore, they’re all buying those damned mp3 doohickeys! ;p

          (sorry… just kidding… teh lulz)

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “This profitability and ability to sell has been eroded during the last 10 years when the customers started circumventing copyright.”

          I beg to differ. The second modern technology enabled customers the ability to copy and share, copyright itself was eroded as it suddenly began interfering with ordinary property rights as it was understood by the normal human being.

          Before that time, copyright was “eroded” only by those who could afford the mechanisms and technology to do so.

          You are, in short, waging a war against progress.

        • Ardvaark

          I’ll provide you some more contemporary evidence.

          Please compare disco/electronic music from the 70′s and 80′s with modern electronic music.

          You don’t even have to enjoy the genre that much to see a the older creations were vastly more varied than the actual ones who sound very much alike.

          What happened then? Well, copyright of samples. Meaning you couldn’t pick a phrase of a track or even some vocals (even as long as a couple of seconds) and remix them because you would be infringing the original creator’s copyright.

          Now to a genre that thrived on remixing other people’s work this had a devastating effect and which made the genre stale and very uniform, because there’s only so many samples that can be used without getting yourself into trouble.

          This also affected Hip-Hop to some extent by the way.

        • SoundnuoS

          Why should composers of other genres be obliged to provide compositional material to composers in one genre for free?

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Why should composers of other genres be obliged to provide compositional material to composers in one genre for free?”

          You mean…the way they always have? The way art always has? The way artistry of any kind works, and has for thousands of years?

          You claim you are a musician? I seriously doubt either that, or, with the statement you made, that you even know what it entails.

        • Anyone

          If I write a book I can quote from other books without paying those authors

          why is it different for music? If I write a new song, why can’t I “quote” (sample) other songs without paying?

          this is one way copyright stifles culture, just as it was designed to

        • Ardvaark

          Seriously?

          Next you’re going to tell me that any sequence of 2-3 notes that has already been used by one artist can’t be used by another one because that sequence was already thought of…

          If you can’t grasp the importance of being able to build and improve on other’s work and how forbidding such thing is a major stall to progress then there’s something very wrong with you.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Next you’re going to tell me that any sequence of 2-3 notes that has already been used by one artist can’t be used by another one because that sequence was already thought of…”

          http://exclaim.ca/News/kraftwerk_win_copyright_case_after_12_years

          You were saying?

          We are talking about 2 seconds worth of what appears to be an industrial sound of some sort.

        • SoundnuoS

          Composers haven’t for thousands of years been using parts of other peoples performances, verbatim and unchanged, as material for their compositions.

          A musical quote is just that: a quote. If it forms the backbone of your composition then it becomes quite a bit more than that.

          Nothing is stopping hip-hop producers from creating their own beats, based on inspiration they get from other sources.

          As it happens though, I do agree that there can be valid artistic reasons for creating musical collages using sampling.

          This can be negotiated and cleared however and is not a very good reason for throwing out all of copyright for.

        • Liam JH

          I see musical theatre and opera as a counter argument.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          I repeat: Kraftwerk sued – and won – over two seconds worth of industrial noise hidden inside another song.

          “Composers haven’t for thousands of years been using parts of other peoples performances, verbatim and unchanged, as material for their compositions.”

          That statement is either insane or an outright lie. Composers have – indeed – built on using structure, pieces, sets of chords, and so on et ad nauseam – for as long as music has been known to exist.

          As a musician you might be interested in the concept of “variations”.

          As I said…any musician arguing the way you do has serious problems. You’re denying the foundation of your entire art.

        • SoundnuoS

          It must have been some fairly recognisable industrial noise if they were able to identify it in that context.
          Sampling uses the exact performance, as recorded by the artist. Not quite the same as variations as classical musicians think of them.
          Sampling a riff and using it unchanged and throwing a rap over it is not a variation in that sense.
          Structure and chord progressions are general ideas. Not copyrightable and never was.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Let me repeat your own argument here…

          “A musical quote is just that: a quote. If it forms the backbone of your composition then it becomes quite a bit more than that.

          Nothing is stopping hip-hop producers from creating their own beats, based on inspiration they get from other sources.”

          Whether two seconds of noise in an entire track are frigging identical shouldn’t even be an issue according to what you yourself said.

          So yes, any producer of music today has to be very damn sure the work contains nothing – if it’s even two chords strung together – which anyone with legal muscle might find in a previous body of work.

        • SoundnuoS

          Once again, chord progressions aren’t copyrightable.
          Specific recordings are.
          You do know hip-hop producers have been rerecording music in order to get around the copyright on sound recordings?
          This would put it slightly closer to musical quoting as practiced by the rest of the composing world.

          The reason the ruling was in favor of Kraftwerk was because the sound could have been produced without sampling. If the only way to make the sound would have been through sampling it would have been ok, ironically enough.

        • http://gene-poole.tumblr.com Gene Poole

          As I recall the clincher in that argument, bafflingly, was that the artist who sampled kraftwerk could have duplicated the exact sound themselves using then-current technology, and as such shouldn’t have needed to sample.

          …although if it could be created so easily how one could determine beyond a shadow that the artist actually did sample is beyond me. Sounds like the copyright industry is taking advantage of good faith confessions again.

        • falkdouche

          so now this dickwad is an expert on music aswell!!1 This guy is a fucking sensationalist!!! He basically makes statements which he knows will stir up a hornets nest purely to obtain attention and prop up his lameass blog. THIS GUY IS A FUCKING DOUCHEBAG.

        • Ardvaark

          What the flippin hell?

          Since when did I claim to be a music expert?

          I basically stated the effects of copyright on the music industry with an actually pretty well known and proven evidence.

          And I certainly do NOT own a blog…

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          And once again we see the typical pro-copyright defender in all his glory. Tell me, did your first grade teachers send you home with a few notes when everyone else was learning how to write?

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          He has. amply of it.

          But you might want to read through a few hundred pages on his blog where he references data, independent experts, and reviews.

          http://www.falkvinge.net

        • SoundnuoS

          And how much of this research:
          http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-08/aids-cure-quest-advances-as-merck-cancer-medicine-attacks-hidden-hiv.html
          wouldn’t have been done if the profit motiv wasn’t there?

        • Zumzum

          You’re basing your assumptions on the notion that there can only be one model. That of purely private sector research into medicine. During the Soviet era, Russia was the leader in laser eye surgery and none of it was funded or patented by big pharma, yet we have all benefited from that research.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Curious you should say it – all of it?

          to begin with, roughly 80% of base research is already state-sponsored in many countries as part of educational programs.

          And as for the rest, do you think, for even one second, that any corporation wouldn’t be willing to spend almost any amount of money simply to be first on the market with a working anti-AIDS drug?

          If that was true you are also arguing that no company would ever make it big selling pharmaceuticals which are outside patent protection.

          Would you like to see how much Merck and Pfizer earn on producing “generics”?

          The real clincher, however, comes in the fact that more money is spent on having a cadre of lawyers investigating who owns the patents before you can even begin researching than is spent on the actual research.

        • SoundnuoS

          What companies make it big only selling pharma outside patent protection? Do they make it equally big as companies that do have patents? Is their contribution to research equally big as that of companies with an interest in patents?

          Zumzum brought up the Soviet Union (deja vu, we’ve already done these exact same arguments)
          He pointed out one area where he said the Soviets were ahead. Generally, techwise, the Soviet Union was lagging however.
          With nations having a hard enough time being able to cover their expenses as it is, what makes you think they’ll be able to cover the shortfall in research if the private sector pulls out?

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “What companies make it big only selling pharma outside patent protection? Do they make it equally big as companies that do have patents? Is their contribution to research equally big as that of companies with an interest in patents?”

          What part of “Merck and Pfizer” – basically the Microsoft and Apple in the world of big pharma – was hard to read?

          Now go read up on what the earnings are on their generica as compared to their cutting edge stuff.

        • SoundnuoS
      • closetothetruth

        you mean like Apple, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Oracle, Cisco, Dell, and all the others that currently benefit from IP and trade secret doctrine? There’s not progress, creativity, or innovation there? And IP protectionism made the iPhone so much less successful than the somewhat less IP-laden Android?

        • Anyone

          they don’t benefit from it
          they have to spend billions in courts defending against trolls

          billions that are missing in the R&D departments

        • closetothetruth

          that is just false. Apple is free to open-source all of its material and actually does open source quite a bit; see http://www.apple.com/opensource/. it protects IP where it sees profit in protecting it, lawsuits and all.

        • Mikael Isaksson

          It is not false, the large companies now spend more money on lawyers and in court than on R&D. Was on the news a while ago.

        • closetothetruth

          it is not false that they spend money on lawyers that could have gone to R&D.

          it is false that they would spend that money on lawyers if it was more profitable to give away their IP open source, because then they would do it.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          You mean the way Google does it?

          They actually insist on every employee running his own project 20% of the time, and usually publish the result as FOSS.

          Similarly, I dare you to say that creating and publishing Android has been less than satisfactory for anyone working with it.

          There is nothing at all – nothing – which prevents a company from doing a Google and start on the foot of furnishing the consumers with services for “free”.

          What you are saying is simply that companies investing heavily into lawyers in order to protect their ip are unable to survive any other way. Under an IP-paradigm.

          And Google’s defensive patent stock cost them billions and is used for nothing other than fending of copytroll claims. Dead weight. Motorola has been forced to do the same, RIM the same.

          Hell the worst part is, every one of the industries investing heavily into IP portfolios today acknowledge openly that the drag of those portfolios is one of the biggest contributors to the cost.

          Google actually gets off the easiest as all they need are defensive portfolios to conjure up the threat of a countersuit with.

        • Ardvaark

          Seriously? You’re gonna use Apple and open source together?

          The same Apple which has a unique, closely guarded audio format, Itunes that is pretty much an mp3 but whose specifications are private?

          The same Apple who violently fights any leaks of code from their OS’s ?

          Sharing libs which is mostly what you linked isn’t supporting open source it’s granting the minimal tools to ensure at least someone dares to develop for your platform by the way.

          The same Apple which has all their OS’s code totally guarded and private?

          The same apple who won’t even let his OS run on any-other phone apart from the ones they produce.

          Also you’ll find the IPhone’s popularity has a great deal of marketing (Steve Jobs was flawless at that) and customer locking (Apple’s favorite motto) to back it up.

          Of the remaining examples you’ll see that Dell produces very little software, they’re mostly a hardware reseller. Microsoft is pretty much like Apple but with softer attitudes, so to speak.

          Oracle, Cisco are pretty much in-between and I don’t even know why the hell Facebook is in that list.

          Google could be a good example were it not for the fact they distribute most of their software for free.

      • bobmail

        Rick, honestly you are willfully blind and are being more than a little ignorant.

        The studies you guys general point to are correct in a limited way – in the very short run, copyright and patents do slow progress in those areas, if you ignore plenty of other things – important things like “reason to create”, :”investment in products”, and the like.

        If someone is going to invest 100 million to make a mega blockbuster movie, do still think they would do it without any hope of controlling the sale of the end product? Do you think that there would be anything like it if the day after a movie was released, every other movie theater was showing it at half price without paying any rights fees? Do you think most people would enter a market knowing they could be legally copied and redistributed without compensation?

        The answer, quite simple, is no. Most people would not. Some will, some think that there is money in free. Yet, even the biggest of the pirating sites (mega) only made 150 million in 5 years, barely enough to pay for a single blockbuster movie.

        Progress happens when people feel that their efforts come with rewards, where they can dedicate their lives towards something, hoping to make enough money to do it all again.

        Honestly, after 20 years, you have become basically a slave to a single mentality without consideration for reality. It’s truly sad that people see you as a leader, as you are leading the sheeple off the cliff.

        • BuddhaFacePalmed

          bob, bob, when you ever gonna learn?

          Reason to create? Product investment? Pfffftt, people do not need a reason to create. As for product investment, it is between you as the creator and the investor, absolutely nothing to do with your consumers.

          See, here in the real world, there is no guaranteed return for an investment. It’s a risk to invest into something and always has been. Investing $100 million into a movie does not ensure it will do well in the box office. Look at Green Lantern. A budget of $325 million and ended with a net loss of $105 million. It wasn’t piracy that caused its loss, it was a shitty movie to begin with.

          True, progress happens when people are rewarded. but monetary rewards aren’t the MAJOR motivation for anyone to progress. Recognition of your work, advancement of the collective human knowledge and culture are the major reasons why progress is made.

          Nobel Prizes are given to those who have made the greatest contribution to humanity. Ask any of the winners, recognition by their peers was more important. The million dollars that came with it was a minor issue, nothing more.

        • bobmail

          “Reason to create? Product investment? Pfffftt, people do not need a reason to create. As for product investment, it is between you as the creator and the investor, absolutely nothing to do with your consumers.”

          You go on about the real world, yet you are clueless to the basics of business. An investor makes an investment when they feel there is a good chance for a return on that investment. Some work, some don’t. But they only make those investments when they feel they have a reasonable expectation of a return.

          If you eliminate copyright, licensing, and any form of control of a finished product, you remove the ability for an investor to make a move – they are investing in something they cannot own or control, nor that they can be assured to be able to bring to marketplace without zero investment competition on the same product (pirated DVDs, example).

          The problem with your argument is that you are comparing two different situations. I don’t see a ton of Nobel prize winners making movies or writing rap music. Confusing popular music and movies with pre-funded scientific research is a laughable idea.

          Yes, some people will create no matter what, nobody ever argues that point. However, if those who right now create movies full time instead have to spend 40 hours a week working an office job, they lose the time that they would use to be creating. It would be like taking Bach and telling him that he must spend 7 days a week sweeping streets in order to eat, or perhaps telling George Lucas that instead of making Star Wars movies, he really should have been working as a librarian. The lost to our culture would be extreme.

          It’s an intellectually dishonest argument to try to mix nobel prize winners with movie makers, or to take exceptional cases and try to paint all of society with them. Our reality is that we must pay the rent, pay for our food, our heat, and our clothes, and as a result, we either need to make money as an artist, or we have to move along and do something else that fills our tummies and keeps us warm. Society benefits the most when those who are artists can be artists, and the systems in place to allow that to happen, to create methods by which they can sell, license, and distribute their arts in a manner that helps them meet their daily needs is key. Without it, we all lose.

          “Look at Green Lantern. A budget of $325 million and ended with a net loss of $105 million. It wasn’t piracy that caused its loss, it was a shitty movie to begin with.”

          Shit happens. So what? it’s called an investment not an assured return. With a better movie they had a chance to make money. Without copyright systems in place, they would have made much less, guaranteed, as someone would have been selling knock off copies for 10 cents on the dollar or distributing it for free online in return for downloading malware.

        • BuddhaFacePalmed

          “If you eliminate copyright, licensing, and any form of control of a finished product, you remove the ability for an investor to make a move – they are investing in something they cannot own or control, nor that they can be assured to be able to bring to marketplace without zero investment competition on the same product (pirated DVDs, example).”

          Since when investors get to control what they invest in? Isn’t that insider trading?

          “I don’t see a ton of Nobel prize winners making movies or writing rap music. Confusing popular music and movies with pre-funded scientific research is a laughable idea.”

          Did I say scientists? Hmm, as I recall there is a Nobel Prize for Literature. Aren’t writers in the same field as artists?

          “the systems in place to allow that to happen, to create methods by which they can sell, license, and distribute their arts in a manner that helps them meet their daily needs is key.”

          It’s there. It’s called the INTERNET. Look it up.

          “Shit happens. So what? it’s called an investment not an assured return. With a better movie they had a chance to make money.”

          So, first you say investors need control over their finish products to get an assured return in profits. Then you say it’s investments and comes with risk. do clarify, you can’t argue for both sides of an argument.

          “Without copyright systems in place, they would have made much less, guaranteed”

          HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

        • http://gene-poole.tumblr.com Gene Poole

          It’s not the customers’ responsibility to ensure that the entrepreneurs get paid. They need to learn how to sell better. Not our problem.

        • http://www.facebook.com/jared.davis.9887 Jared Davis

          People do not need economic incentive to create. It is instinctual for human to create. The satisfaction is making it. Humans need to create to be happy or at least feel productive. If you don’t think so, try doing absolutely nothing for three months and tell me you are not either depressed or miserable

        • Guest

          “do still think they would do it without any hope of controlling the sale of the end product?”

          Yes, considering there’s no hope of controlling the sale of the end product in the 21st century and yet people still invest in 100 million dollar movies anyway.

          Aww, did I kill your whole argument in one paragraph? Sorry. :(

        • icec0ld

          “The studies you guys general point to are correct in a limited way – in the very short run, copyright and patents do slow progress in those areas, if you ignore plenty of other things – important things like “reason to create”, :”investment in products”, and the like.”

          Short run. I don’t define 30 years of stifling to be considered short run research and evidence.

          “If someone is going to invest 100 million to make a mega blockbuster movie, do still think they would do it without any hope of controlling the sale of the end product? Do you think that there would be anything like it if the day after a movie was released,”

          You talk as if they could stop making movies/music/games any day because of the ease of which digital products are shared.

          This is not the case.

          “The answer, quite simple, is no. Most people would not. Some will, some think that there is money in free. Yet, even the biggest of the pirating sites (mega) only made 150 million in 5 years, barely enough to pay for a single blockbuster movie”

          Different industries work on different levels of profit. A successful food-stand’s income is not going to be relative to a multinational fast food chains. This is essentially a useless comparison to make.

          As I just pointed out, it’s been more than 10 years since the growth of piracy and we’ve seen the death of entertainment industries… oh wait, no we haven’t. I’ve been outside more than you it seems

          “Progress happens when people feel that their efforts come with rewards, where they can dedicate their lives towards something, hoping to make enough money to do it all again.”

          What progress is there when medicines that could save millions is locked behind patents of copyright and millions of dollars? None. The human race is and should be above simple greed and all you wish to foster is the most disgusting facet of mankind that has led to suffering and destruction of millions. You disgust me and you should be ashamed.

          “Honestly, after 20 years, you have become basically a slave to a single mentality without consideration for reality. It’s truly sad that people see you as a leader, as you are leading the sheeple off the cliff.”

          Stop projecting Bob.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “The studies you guys general point to are correct in a limited way – in the very short run, copyright and patents do slow progress in those areas, if you ignore plenty of other things – important things like “reason to create”, :”investment in products”, and the like.”

          If by “short run” you mean the last few thousand years of human history, then yes.

          Indeed, most independent experts today seem to be coming down rather harshly on the side that copyright and patents are far more of a ball and chain to progress than a boon.

          For the home electronics industry or anything involving computer code and circuits, this is already a proven case.

          Now, as usual once we have done away with your demonstrably false assumption the rest of your argument falls apart.

          Which leaves us with the ad hominem at the end summarizing the entire post for us, providing a translation of your post in the gist of: “I can’t refute anything without revisionism to I’ll revise history until it fits what I want to say and end it with some invective in the hopes someone will believe me”.

          The reason people look to Rick for advise is, by the way, because he’s a reasonable person with an evidence-based view and common sense.

          But I have to stop you once more before you proclaim Rick our uncrowned king – as I know you copyright maximalists like to do every time someone speaks out in public against the paradigm you uphold – Pirates have no leaders as such.

          And there is no one central figure who is important to the cause of Piracy. No matter how much you guys desperately look for a captain to hang in order to bring copying to a stop, you will find none.

          What is important to us are principles, civil rights, common sense and fact-based argumentation.

          Don’t believe for a second that anyone has failed to notice how fervently you are trying to hang those.

        • ktetch

          “If someone is going to invest 100 million to make a mega blockbuster movie, do still think they would do it without any hope of controlling the sale of the end product?”
          Funny thing, you know the $100Mil blockbuster is only a recent thing?

          Until 1992, there wasn’t a 100Mil film. I think it was Terminator 2 that broke that. Until then Die Hard was the most expensive, at $90M.

          So what changed? Copyright laws did, once in 98, but in reality it was a lack of push-back for big name salaries, and the old favorite of ‘hollywood accounting’ inflating the numbers.

          In fact a computerized animated film costs more most big budget films. Toy Story 3 had a budget of $200M. Toy Story 2 11 years earlier was $90M. The same actors, similar technologies and the same crew for hte most part behind it, yet the cost was doubled? And of course, a digital model is MUCH harder than hand-drawing each and every frame. Like they had to do with, say, Aladdin – oh wait $28M…
          Or maybe everything doubled in price between 2001 and 2010, which is why the first Harry potter film had a budget of $125M, and yet number 6 had one of $250M (no budget figures available for deathly hallows)

          So when you go on about the “$100Million movie” – just remember, they’er a new thing, and they’re also a minority, with MAYBE 40 a year. Wow, aren’t we glad we’ve written copyright law for the 40 films a year that cost $100M starting 20 years ago – certainly puts things in perspective.

    • J W

      I don’t see him arguing that he should be able to make a profit off of his labor of executing a copy command on the file. He is simply saying that he should owe as much to the people that produced the movie as they (the movie moguls) owe to those who invented electricity generators, the modern graphics card,
      the keyboard, wire insulation, storage media, networking protocols, and
      many, many other things that were necessary to create the “Intellectual property”.

      • Spongebob and Patrick

        bingo

        exactly!! i dont see people being sued for using/making bricks/nails/bolts .etc nor do i see them being hassled for permissions/royalties/licenses

        can you imagine how screwed up the world would be if we did? well, that’s how it is with practically all artistic works nowadays

    • BJonesTF

      What a shame that there’s extensive history to undermine this lie.

      The truth is, ‘Intellectual property’ (a misnomer, combining copyrights, patents and trademarks – three very different laws into one topic to try and befuddle) is a relatively new concept. Much of what’s been created in recent years, and especially the things that made the major players into the major players, was from re-using work that was created before copyright, and which is now locked under copyright to protect those companies.

      Likewise patents . Sure James Watt profited by his steam engine, but the engine was inefficient, and so the steam engine never really took off in development until after Watt’s patent expired. It’s a common story over the last 200 years (and I do appreciate WAtt, after all, I used to use one of the original stations on his first route daily, until I moved away – yes, there are still stations from the original 1830 rail system around)

      As it ends up, we here at Torrentfreak, Rick included, probably know a lot more about “IP” than most lobbyists, mainly because we aren’t doing it for the money, but for the love of our fellow man. As such, we don’t have to be ‘willfully blind’ to the facts in order to keep a straight face when lobbying, we can just tell the truth instead.

    • Readthefuckingsite

      this horse shit again

      give me a break, it’s been disproven billions of times, if you had half the bother to actually go look it up you’d realize it, but, nah, let’s just keep up the status quo

    • mastergurra

      It’s rather the other way around. Intellectual property encourages people and companies to get their income from customers using old work rather than getting paid for new work.

      When comes to patents it is obvious how large an overhead patents are in terms of costs for businesses, your argument fails on it’s own unrealistic terms. The bureaucracy of patents hinders competition and binds X % of the companies economy to fund people just administering the “rights” to old pruducts instead of being able to use that money for developing new products.

      • Christopher Kidwell

        True. There has to be some amount of time that only the original makers of X thing can sell their product, but that should only be a very short period….. 5 years, tops. If you haven’t been able to make money on your product in that amount of time, you aren’t going to.

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      “Without protection for intellectual property little is going to produced (and the area of patents is probably more important than copyright).”

      In short, history is wrong, everyone, and so are all the experts who claim patents and IP is becoming more of a hindrance to progress every day.

      And so, of course, are the organizations who calculate that patent protection is responsible for more deaths in the third world in the last 30 years than was harvested by a major war, or even WW2.

      Which is why many 3rd-world countries have to bypass the problem by “compulsory licensing”.

      I’m wondering, Random Nickname Of The Day, whether you have any understanding of what immaterial “rights” cause other than what wikipedia and the pro-IP crowd has to sell for slogans.

  • anonymous

    copyright maximalists are nothing other than selfish. they insist on profiting from every thing they produce. trouble is, it doesn’t stop there. they want and indeed insist on profiting from what they sell not because they are items but because they are only selling licenses. that gives them the ability, and in their eyes, the right, to continuously profit from the same thing over and over again! but in the opposite, insist that whatever they want from others, is theirs to take for free. a perfect example of this is Apple. look at the times it has sued one minute over copyright infringement, then gets sued the next because it just decides that something someone else has produced is wanted, but doesn’t want to pay. imagine the horror those that insist on carrying out this practice would have if every other manufacturer did the same thing. shit would really hit fan! governments would soon begin to question the practice once put under pressure from consumer groups. the question is, why are the entertainment industries not only allowed to get away with doing this, but are actively encouraged by the leaders of almost every country world wide? one day the real answer will be let out. in the mean time, all we can do is complain at what they do and the way the consumer is disrespected.

    • closetothetruth

      whereas this solution allows the “unselfish” corporate giants like Google (via YouTube especially), IBM, Facebook, and many others, to take everything that some people do, 100% for free, and then make their own enormous profits from them.

      without significant corporate reform of a sort I’ve yet to see laid out anywhere, the only people who will “win” from the ending of IP will be the corporations already set up to profit from it. Which is why Google and many other corporate giants actually support anti-copyright movements like Falkvinge’s–he’s not on the side of the little guy, but of the biggest guys.

      • Ardvaark

        You’ll find there’s a great deal of people living off of youtube with higher than average wages. Others produce content to it in their spare time and are able to bring in some extra cash.
        Others produce for the sake of doing so without profit in mind, like people write in wikipedia for the sake of informing, or like people publish musics for the sake of publishing.

        By the way the word you’re looking for is selfish? or maybe you mean selfless, I can’t really tell with your very confused reasoning…

      • Liam. JH

        Any argument that includes IBM is null and void.
        IBM in the 1940′s under licence from the US, sold the punch card reader systems to Nazi Germany that where used for ‘cataloguing’ Jewish prisoners destined for the gas chambers.

      • Zumzum

        They already do this through adwords. You built a website? Google has indexed it and are making money off it. This isn’t to your detriment, it’s to your advantage because they are providing a service that benefits your traffic and on the side they are making some cash off providing the service. And Google searches cost nothing to the user – proving that you CAN monetise free, you just have to think laterally.

      • spookyserendipity

        QUOTE: “without significant corporate reform of a sort I’ve yet to see laid out anywhere, the only people who will “win” from the ending of IP will be the corporations already set up to profit from it.”

        Here, let me fix that for you: “…the only [companies] who will “win” from the ending of IP will be the corporations [who were insightful enough to be...] set up [in time] to profit from it.”

        There, that’s better. :)

        Uh, this is called market innovation/evolution…and necessarily should be the natural order of things in a free market. Some win, some lose. Those who react to the market live. Those who don’t, die. Period.

        What anti-copyright groups are advocating is to let the FREE MARKET decide. What copyright monopolists are advocating is for large corporations to use massive amounts of lobbyist money to essentially buy off the government to protect their obsolete business models because those who have a vested interest in the status quo were not innovative, creative, or nimble enough to see the future barreling towards them like an out-of-control locomotive.

        It’s always hilarious to me that people like yourself pine for and claim to love “free markets” but then turn out to be the 1st in line to beg for market protection or a bailout or a legislative manouver from a bought-and-paid for politician to protect your market and put entering competition out of business. The dirty little secret underlying all this is that at their core people these people claim to be capitalists, but want absolutely nothing to do with actual, real competition. They want to pay for that competition to go away and let them continue selling their obsolete ideas/products/services to a trapped audience who has little or no choice to go elsewhere.

    • marxmarv

      Copyright maximalists believe in the cult of economic growth, forever. This is why the intellectual commons is being fenced off and sold: high finance depends on 3% annual growth forever, and if there’s a commons to harvest and/or salt for it, alas for the public they had to destroy in order to save…

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  • Guest

    The copyright monopolists will argue “b-but we make it clear in our end user license that we still own the shiny things after we sell them to you!”, apparently unaware of the fact the world does not allow this.

    Will the emperor ever realize he’s naked? Ever?

    • Christopher Kidwell

      Not until there are some court judgments against them to send them the message that “No, your EULA’s are not binding agreements and when you sell something to someone, they actually own that thing and can do with it as they please!”

      That would also but the kibosh on some of these DRM schemes that are SOLELY about dictating to legitimate paying customers what they can do with their legally bought stuff.

      • marxmarv

        It would, and that’s why it’s unlikely. A market is useful for allocating *scarce* goods only. Intellectual property rights are no more or less than enforcing the scarcity of knowledge at gunpoint.

        • spookyserendipity

          Creating artificial scarcities is arguably the primary way that “modern” economies make money for the elite gentry, since they contribute so very little actual, tangible benefit to society. They extract far more than they give back, from the top down…and then try to sell the idea that if anyone doesn’t like it they are a bad corporate citizen who must be criminalized. Fascism doesn’t change.

    • Carlton

      From the article: “Anybody is free to create shiny things, but their ownership over the shiny thing stops the instant they sell it.”

      Correct, but misleading in this context. The copyright holder sold the content, not the right to distribute the content. Take a look at the “rights reserved” fine print on the item to assure yourself of the copyright holder’s intent.

      • http://twitter.com/Falkvinge Falkvinge

        The creater sold the object. Under normal market rules, you own this object and can do whatever you please with it, including reselling it.

        • Carlton

          Often, it is not the creator who sells the object, but the rights holder.

          And often there is no object, like when you purchase content for download online. In such cases, it is the content you are paying for, not an object, and not the rights to distribute the content.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Correction: You are paying for a “service”.

          Even copyright law is quite clear on the fact that content is a flagrant exception on ordinary property and market rules.

          Because there is no “content”. You are being allowed to make a copy, using your own materials and effort, from a blueprint offered by someone else. Ostensibly what copyright does it that it makes it unlawful for you to make such a copy from any other person.

          After which the actual effect of the law becomes even more hilariously insane.

      • http://www.facebook.com/nick.broadhead.9 Nick Broadhead

        Yes, you are not given a right to make a copy of the file and sell it to another, which is why we have laws that punish people who distribute “copies” of a legit file to others, for cost or not.

        Yet companies are taking the enforcement of copyright into their own hands, by strangling the copy you got so that it cannot POSSIBLY be copied, even if you yourself never had the intention of doing so to break the law.

        See, once a book has been purchased, you are free to do whatever you want with the resulting book. You can write on it (modifying the content), rip it up (delete it), or even plop it into your copy machine to make a (not perfect but can wear down without loss of value) copy for personal reasons.

        Taking the book analogy to it’s equivalent with digital DRM, is the same as locking up your book in the publishers warehouse when not in use, and only being allowed to read the book while in their building, being watched over by security guards to make sure you don’t photocopy it and give that to a friend.

        What people want is the ability to do what they want with their copy of stuff. If they choose to make a copy and NOT use it for personal reasons, then we can prosecute them for violating the owners copyright.

        It seems to me that we are sacrificing our right of second sale and our right to do WHAT WE WANT with our property (selling me the book means this copy is MINE, not the authors) is not worth making sure a company is given EVERY single cent they demand they are entitled to for a work.

        It’s like guns. Just because a gun CAN be used to murder someone is NOT an acceptable reason that guns should not be made and sold to people. So too should the ability to copy a file NOT be restricted because it could potentially lead to a violation of copyright.

      • Anyone

        content cannot be sold

        • ScrewEwe2

          Explain please.

          TYIA.

  • BobbyButtons

    Did Lost come to anyone else’s mind after the first line?

    • Spongebob and Patrick

      yeah

      now im wishing all of MAFIAA and their copyrestricting supporters would go get lost on Lost island

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  • dondilly

    A few of the area where big media has blurred the distinction between licensing and property rights taking elements of both to their favour can be seen when comparing old and new software licenses.

    While they like to remind you you only license rather than own the software, you used to be able to obtain replacement media or change medium for a nominal cost. This followed true licencing rights, you were dealing with software companies. Try it now that big media has got into the distribution chain, You will find in most cases that unless defective at purchase, you will be expected to purchase your replacement at full price ignoring your existing license.

    They do this with music and video, expecting you to buy a new license when changing formats. They even have the nerve to charge extra, beyond the duplicating cost of the new format arguing that you pay more for the quality. The truth is that you already own a license, what business is it of theirs to tax you on your investment in AV gear.

  • jack

    everyone forgets that Hollywood studios and riaa are run by Jews if they did not jew there customer down price ticket and dvds and cds they would be make money.

  • SoundnuoS

    Falkvinge’s concept of property seems to be based on a fairly archaic notion of what can and can’t be owned.
    This is something we should have moved past at the latest with the appearance of electronic banking and computers.
    In fact lots of people seem to be aware that intellectual property is something that can be owned even when it’s in the shape of files, as witnessed by the uproar when Instagram was going to sell people’s pictures.

    • Spongebob and Patrick

      MAFIAA’s/IP supporters’ concept of property seems to be based on a fairly archaic notion of what can and can’t be owned.

      FTFY

      • SoundnuoS

        I’m very impressed by this fix.

    • http://twitter.com/Falkvinge Falkvinge

      “Falkvinge’s concept of property seems to be based on a fairly archaic notion of what can and can’t be owned.”

      This has to be one of the funniest attempts at debunking my points I have ever seen :)

      Yes, property does indeed tend to be defined from whether it can be owned or not.

      • SoundnuoS

        Please read what I write. Your idea of what and how something can and can’t be owned is based on it being a physical object.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “What ownership is, is a set of rights, some of which (but not necessarily all) are being transferred at the moment of sale.”

          All of which are quite clearly definable in a way which puts them at complete cross-purposes with what “immaterial rights” attempt to say.

          Which is why, quite logically, even copyright law agrees 100% with what Falkvinge is saying.

          So Copyright is based on the mechanism you choose to call “archaic”.

          Or were you suggesting rewriting property laws to include ideas and information under that heading? Kindly ask yourself before you try, why no lawmaker has ever attempted something similar outside a totalitarian state of a certain kind.

        • Liam .Jh

          I am sorry but once an ‘idea’ is expressed in public, then as far as I am concerned it has been released into the public domain.
          The uproar with Instagram was not about ‘copyright’ but privacy.

      • yourafake

        I can just imagine FALKMINGE in his room now wanking himself silly!!1 ‘oooh my pathetic attempt to obatin attention and get publicity for my lame ass blog is working’ oooohhh the idiots have fell for my sensationalism.
        You are fucking HACK Falkminge and I see you, see right through you you fucking asshole.
        ‘oooohh I may een get some booking for public speaking out of this, oooooooh’. See right through you you fake bastard.

    • Aaeru

      SoundnuoS: the reason why they reject these State-created intellectual property rights, is because they are incompatible with real physical property rights. You can have one or you can have the other. You cannot have both at the same time. They logically contradict each other.

      See Stephan Kinsella’s Against Intellectual Property.

      • SoundnuoS

        This is simply not true. First of all, all property rights, whether physical or intellectual are “state-created”. There’s nothing natural about any of them, other than to the extent that most creature’s probably can have a sense of “this is mine”.
        The only reason the stronger guy can’t take your chair however, is because we as a society are of the opinion that it would be ethically wrong of him to deprive you of it by force.
        This is the basis of all our property rights.

        The reason you’re not getting every conceivable right when buying a record is because the seller won’t give them away for the small price your paying.
        There’s no conflict with physical property rights, the reason you’re not allowed to copy and redistribute it is because those rights were never sold to you in the first place.

    • Guest

      Yes, SoundnuoS, we are perfectly aware of the copyright monopoly’s opinion about intellectual property.

      You, however, are apparently not aware that the copyright monopoly’s opinion about intellectual property doesn’t line up with reality and is, therefore, is a widely disregarded laughingstock.

      I’d have thought the hundreds of millions of people saying “lolnope” to IP every single second of every single day would’ve clued you in, but I guess not.

      • SoundnuoS

        Reality has had copyright for hundreds of years now, it’s obviously not at odds with it.
        The hundreds of millions of people saying “lolnope” to IP says nothing about the validity of the idea, it just shows that it is possible to circumvent. Which really is no big news.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Reality has had copyright for hundreds of years now, it’s obviously not at odds with it.”

          Is this where we should include the numbers of deaths caused by copyright conflicts in France?

          Having to behead people én másse is “not being at odds”?

          Should we introduce the many and varied disputes being waged then, as now, regarding the principles of copyright as opposed to civil rights and property?

          No, SoundnuoS, you speak out of ignorance or are simply lying if you imply copyright is not “at odds” with society and never has been.

          Copyright will indeed be circumvented by anyone with the skill or technology to do so. This is what history shows us. Today modern technology has made both ubiquitous. And that means copyright today is indeed at real odds with society. More so than ever.

        • bobmail

          The funny part is that when you start talking to people beyond school age (and past the point of being lifetime students), they suddenly wise up and realize there are reasons that property rights exist. They are all artificial constructs, every last one of them – but they are needed for the good functioning of a country.

          Copyright today is only at odds with current society because current society is disrespectful, working hard to get “more for me” no matter who you have to take it from. Current society would steal candy from a baby (and often does) and would also take medication away from the elderly just to get high.

          Do you think the widespread use of Meth suggests that we should just make it all legal and ignore it? How many methheads would it take to shift your views?

        • BuddhaFacePalmed

          Wow, meth addicts compared to piracy. Congratulations, your corporate overseers must be proud. Here, have a piece of candy.

          On a side note, meth addicts In the great US of A are rampant in Western States, especially in redneck country where the average high school student barely passed their SATs and the rate of unemployment is high. Don’t forget the lack of mental health facilities and the high death rate from guns. Where the majority of people live barely above the poverty line and live in conditions comparable to slums.

          I’m pretty sure if you live in these conditions and have no future to look forward to, you’ll be using meth already. On second thought… you probably are using anyway.

        • MadAsASnake

          These people don’t buy a lot of blue rays either

        • http://gene-poole.tumblr.com Gene Poole

          You’re arguing against Rick’s article so aggressively, bobby boy…something tells me you’re a little scared of what he’s said.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Copyright today is only at odds with current society because current society is disrespectful, working hard to get “more for me”"

          Yes, I’m afraid the market model of capitalism is incompatible with communist-style information control and plan economy which you envision.

          Ironic that I should have to tell an american “Greed works”. It just goes to show just how “American” a copyright maximalist can be.

          After that we have a few lame attempts at bypassing civil rights by comparing the exercise of civil rights with heavy drug abuse. I’m surprised, bobmail, that you didn’t take a stab at including child pornography and terrorism in what it means to “infringe copyright”.

          Is there any other hyperbole you need to get off your chest? Such as a wild claim that filesharing would mean we have to eat children?

          That people who can primarily be defined by “sharing” are callous and unfeeling individuals?

          Go on, bobmail, astonish us with your next clown act.

        • MadAsASnake

          Iv’e seen it estimated that between 1/4 and 1/3 of the western population engage in “piracy”. I think that is pretty much at odds…

    • Ardvaark

      Selling content you get for free is frowned upon by both pirates and copyright monopolists alike. Instagram photos were uploaded for free, hence profiting from selling them isn’t correct.

      Your argument is flawed.

      • SoundnuoS

        My argument is based on that people clearly feel they can own something even if it has been transformed into pure information (i.e. files on Instagram)
        No flaw there.

        • Ardvaark

          The flaw is not in attributing value to something. It’s in profiting from publicly available work.

          Sharing music doesn’t make the uploader or the downloader a single cent.

          Uploading to instagram doesn’t get you a single cent either, so why should the one who gets the photos uploaded to, profit by selling them? well he shouldn’t.

          The flaw in your argument is that you assume that you mustn’t share what has value and that is ultimately wrong. You should share because you want to, regardless of value.

        • SoundnuoS

          So why don’t we all go into the grocery shop and share all the food then?

        • Ardvaark

          Are you retarded?

          Why you comparing the act of selling something that is created and distributed for free

          with the act of sharing something that is paid for?

        • SoundnuoS

          Because it isn’t created for free, what’s being shared is stuff that should be paid for.

        • Ardvaark

          I didn’t say the contents of a grocery store were created for free.

          Can you read?

          You still failed to explain how the instagram issue relates with sharing the contents of a grocery store beyond your allucinations.

          Or are you actually advocating that instagram photos should be sold by facebook?

        • SoundnuoS

          Grocery store comment made in response to this statement from your post:

          “Sharing music doesn’t make the uploader or the downloader a single cent.”

        • Ardvaark

          I know it was in response to that, it’s right beneath it…

          It still doesn’t bring any sense to your logic though

          Sharing music doesn’t cost a cent to the distributor nor the receiver -> all good

          Sharing photos doesn’t cost a cent to the distributor nor the receiver -> all good

          But when you want to gain money from sharing stuff (instagram or not) it’s wrong, simple as that.

          Your grocery store analogy is wrong because
          a) Phisical principles don’t apply to data
          b) Groceries are a limited resource
          c) To share a grocery the sharer has to lose money (I pay the groceries then share them with whoever) -> This isn’t a negative thing it’s just a limited.

          So yeah you go to the grocery store, buy it all and give it away if you want, no one’s going to complain.

          But your analogy of the groceries and instagram photo is an absolutely retarded comparison with no connection between them.

        • SoundnuoS

          My grocery store analogy is only about your point c).
          If we both go into the grocery store and just take the food and share it between us it won’t have cost neither of us a penny.
          The only one losing money here is the store owner.
          The analogy with creators of IP becomes clearer if we imagine going into a farmer’s fields and just sharing what’s growing there.

        • Ardvaark

          You can’t take the food and share it, that’s stealing.

          You buy the food and share it, we both loose money with your analogy not the store owner. That’s the problem with your example.

          You’re mistaking sharing with stealing.

          Same thing, if you break into a farmer’s field and give away his property for free, if you bought it before, good, you’re a generous guy. If you just took it and shared it, you’re pretty much Robin Hood but you stole the farmer.

          None of these analogies of yours even applies with IP because there’s nothing phisical involved.

          Again, your analogy and argument is flawed.

        • SoundnuoS

          The analogy lies in that theft from the shop owner/farmer makes him poorer and piracy makes the content creators poorer. Can’t make it clearer than this.

        • Ardvaark

          Finally you spewed it.

          Was just waiting for you to say that.

          The farmer/grocer lose money because they don’t sell it and don’t have the product anymore.

          The producer on the other hand doesn’t lose content, because it’s still there, a copy was made (which is impossible in the real world, which is why your comparison fails).

          Furthermore you’ll see, and I’ve already told this to you before, that 1 copy = 1 lost sale is yet to be proven by anyone. I’ve also told you about the several studies that prove piracy doesn’t reduce sales as, in fact, pirates not only buy more content but also increase sales.

          And still you’ve failed to explain why Instagram selling user submitted photos is ok or how the fact that people pirate justifies Instagram’s actions.

        • SoundnuoS

          The analogy works in showing that the reason the farmer/shop owner/creator lose money is because they are losing sales.
          Making a 100% analogy with physical products is pretty much impossible, that’s why we have copyright in the first place.

          The Instagram situation shows that people do care about and think they should own information, when it’s their own information.
          People feel ok about sharing information (copyrighted stuff) as long as it’s someone elses. When their own information starts to be taken for free, it’s suddenly a big deal.

          No one is saying there’s a 1 to 1 relationship, but that piracy does mean lost sales is pretty much beyond doubt.

          About the studies:

          I linked this one to you before.
          http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2132153

          The authors take a look at the studies available by august 2012 and find that the vast majority of studies say that piracy reduces sales.
          They take a look at the studies that show piracy doesn’t remove sales and point out what might be wrong with them.
          The study you linked showing increases in sales is mentioned in the link above, with some questions asked if the methodology was 100% proof.

          I actually read the paper you linked. The author actually says piracy reduces sales in general, but he found a small positive effect for established and popular artists only.
          His conclusion was that the money in the shrinking music business is concentrated into the hands of fewer and more well known artists.
          Doesn’t sound so great that way, does it?

          The survey that shows pirates buy more:
          http://piracy.americanassembly.org/npd-confidential-ii-die-substitution-studies-die/

          25% buy 10% or less of their music. 16% didn’t pay for any of their music at all.

          50% of a p2pers music is downloaded for free.

          Not really proof that piracy isn’t a lost sale.

          The comparison of legally bough music collections between p2pers and non-p2pers was made on music files only.

          If physical media (cds, vinyl) would have been included it’s possible the comparison would have turned out differently.

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      “Falkvinge’s concept of property seems to be based on a fairly archaic notion of what can and can’t be owned.”

      Archaic as in fundamentally speaking the only workable definition?

      Gravity is also archaic but you will find it works no less well for that reason.

      Or did you mean “archaic” as in even modern interpretation of law agrees with him?

      SoundnuoS, you keep using words I’m not sure you understand the meaning of.

      It’s either that or you are deliberately trying to deceive by using a straw man redefinition of a word and a false assumption in order to have a structure to build an argument producing the end result you wish.

      I’m sure no one thinks that of you. Unless they read enough of your commentaries and pay close attention to the way you try to move the goal posts from the comment you are answering.

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      “Falkvinge’s concept of property seems to be based on a fairly archaic notion…”

      Since this was refuted amply, based on both modern interpretation of copyright law and how the law defines “property” what you are in essence saying that the law needs to be rewritten.

      And since copyright law especially relies extensively on this “archaic” interpretation of Rick’s, your argument is thus that copyright law is invalid as well?

      Or how does this logic loop of yours go?

      • SoundnuoS

        How does the law define property in your opinion? Imo, for all intents and purposes IP is made into property by law. Like all forms of property it can be sold with rights transferred partially or completely, permanently or for a certain time-period.

        The only way this can possibly confuse someone is if they are stuck in a mind-set where only that which can be touched can be owned. Something we as a society started realising isn’t the case quite a while ago:

        “The statement that “discoveries are…property” goes back earlier. Section 1 of the French law of 1791 stated, “All new discoveries are the property of the author; to assure the inventor the property and temporary enjoyment of his discovery, there shall be delivered to him a patent for five, ten or fifteen years”
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property

        Old idea, but not as old as the idea that you need to be able to hold something in order to be able to own it.
        This is something that we, as I pointed out above, should definitely have moved beyond with electronic banking.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          In my opinion? Try reading up on Copyright law itself.

          Copyright is included as an exception on ordinary property law. If my “opinion” does not stand, then copyright law is also considered invalid.

          This is one of the main problems with so-called “intellectual” property. Were it otherwise you’d have to amend property to include actual thoughts and ideas – at which point we have arrived at a very ugly point.

        • SoundnuoS

          Random link on UK copyright law:
          http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law

          “Who owns a piece of work

          Normally the individual or collective who authored the work will exclusively own the work and is referred to as the ‘first owner of copyright’ under the 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act. However, if a work is produced as part of employment then the first owner will normally be the company that is the employer of the individual who created the work.

          Freelance or commissioned work will usually belong to the author of the work, unless there is an agreement to the contrary, (i.e. in a contract for service).

          Just like any other asset, copyright may be transferred or sold by the copyright owner to another party.”
          The law in the UK, for instance, does seem to regard IP as any other kind of property.
          Thoughts and ideas are not copyrightable, only their implementations. Huge and very important difference.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Normally the individual or collective who authored the work will exclusively own the work and is referred to as the ‘first owner of copyright’ under the 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act.”

          And “the work” ins question is defined under the copyright, designs and patents act which in turn relies yet again on a previous act to define what exactly copyright IS.

          And this all boils down to the logical conclusion that immaterial privileges such as copyright means everyone loses control over their physical, observable and objective property because there is an intangible, unquantifiable data set on it which can be determined only subjectively. And which magically transfers “ownership” on property belonging to third parties as soon as these people, completely unrelated, shape their property into a certain conformation.

          No, SoundnuoS, by the same argument we could similarly prove that the catholic transubstantiation is, for all intents and purposes, real enough to merit law.

          Do you have anything to go on here which doesn’t boil down to subjective intangibles akin to religious principle?

        • SoundnuoS

          The intangible data set is neither unquantifiable nor impossible to determine objectively.
          If that’s your argument against IP then what have you been reading and listening to in your life?

          The experience the data creates is subjective, the data itself and the artistic “object” that data describes is not.

  • Pingback: Why Do Copyright Monopolists Think They Can Just Take Somebody Else’s Work? | We R Pirates

  • Aaeru

    If I print 1000 books, all 1000 books are mine.

    If I sell one book, I have 999 left. The 1 book i sold i exchanged my right to control it for a sum of money.

    Now this one book that I no longer control, it competes against my 999.

    Say if that customer i sold to decides to re-sell it, it is to the detriment and ruin of my family? no, because it is now competing against my 999 books that i am still trying to sell.

    But if that customer decides to copy his book so now he has 2 books, do we say that the 2nd book is not his property?

    No his 2nd book is still his property. It is not my property in the sense that he can use sufficient force to thwart my attempts to steal his 2nd book. Be it knives or guns. He is morally justified to do so.

    Copyright is the author’s attempt to steal part-control over the 2nd book using knives and guns.

    • SoundnuoS

      The reason copyright exists is because we know the value in a book isn’t in the paper it’s made of. It’s in the story.
      The difficult part is creating the story in the first place, not in copying it.
      When the book gets copied no one is creating a new story. The copy is still filling the same purpose as the original.
      If you copy the book 1000 times and sell it or give it away, it is to the detriment of the original writer as soon as the original writer loses a customer to your copies.

      • http://twitter.com/Falkvinge Falkvinge

        No, the reason the copyright monopoly exists is that Mary I wanted England to return to Catholicism, and needed to suppress the printing press. Get your history facts straight.

        • SoundnuoS

          History is one thing, the modern day applications another.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          The modern day applications of information control are justified even though information control itself has been deemed non grata?

          Goebbels would have given you a job in a shot. Literally.

        • SoundnuoS

          Reductio ad hitlerum already? And merely for advocating that people should pay for the art they want?

          Are you sure you want to say that no information, whatsoever should ever be controlled or owned?

          In that case, what were all those Instagram people whining about, it’s just information? Where does it leave that online privacy you claim to be so protective of? It’s only information.

          As I’ve pointed out in other posts, most research agrees that the lost sale is there. We’re actually getting to be at the point where some kind of controlled experiments can be considered done on this with the various legislations around.

          I.e. Spain and the Netherlands: downloading is legal. Sales keep dropping and legal options are less popular than in countries where downloading is illegal.
          In countries where measures are being taken against piracy there are sales spikes not present in neighbouring countries.
          Why are those extra sales appearing if there isn’t a lost sale?

          And I’ve already explained numerous times why copyright doesn’t set aside property laws and am currently in a post above arguing that IP is just one form of property among others, with the particular ruleset that goes with it.

        • MadAsASnake

          you don’t produce art… what is your beef?

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Reductio ad hitlerum already? And merely for advocating that people should pay for the art they want?”

          No, because your suggestions inescapably suggests information control – universally condemned when the sovjet bloc did it or when the church tried to do it – becomes “better” with time. This is an argument Goebbels would have loved as it means a flagrant violation of civil rights, like a fine wine, becomes better with age.

          Goebbels being the first “modern” example of the subtle spin doctor utilizing mass media.

          “In that case, what were all those Instagram people whining about, it’s just information? Where does it leave that online privacy you claim to be so protective of? It’s only information.”

          That’s quite simple. As long as you keep something a secret, that information is yours and yours alone. Allow someone else to be privy to it, we now have two owners.

          The instagram people failed – utterly – to realize that posting something means to give it up and release it into the wild.

          Privacy is an entirely different animal. When that is violated it means that someone decided to obtain and reveal information you had decided not to reveal.

          Violating someone’s privacy is an act of intrusion. Copying information already in the wild is not.

          This is something the instagram-people failed to realize. Or in some of those cases, they became worried that instagram wanted to retain exclusive rights to what they posted which is understandable.

        • SoundnuoS

          So how does that make checking someones p2p activity a privacy issue then? When they start downloading they freely broadcast their address to the world.
          In reality the opinion on information control depends on who tries to control what information.
          You controlling your personal information is ok, the government controlling information on their activities is not. It’s all information none the less.
          Finnish copyright law clearly states that no government documents shall be considered copyrighted.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “So how does that make checking someones p2p activity a privacy issue then? When they start downloading they freely broadcast their address to the world.”

          Similarly to the way a letter is adressed? And yet you would be highly surprised, given your previous stance here, on what sort of hot water the mail office would get in if it EVER tried to link the adress of a letter to the origin.

          In Sweden, at least, this means a four year sentence almost by default.

          The problem is, you see, the problem of actively pursuing such information from an ISP level or allowing such information to be delivered without the deliberate case-by-case judgement of a prosecutor or judge.

          As that means the criteria necessary to maintain “messenger immunity” have been abolished. Along with much of “free speech” which then becomes a theoretical construct.

        • SoundnuoS

          Or is it similar to the license plate of a car? I’ve been caught by speeding cameras a few times and they didn’t have any qualms about linking my license plate to me.

          Getting that adress information from an ISP has nothing to do with messenger immunity. In fact, since ISPs can’t be held responsible for the actions of users, messenger immunity is being upheld when it comes to them.
          And free speech won’t go anywhere as anyone will still be free to say anything they like.

        • Traveller

          “I.e. Spain (…): downloading is legal. Sales keep
          dropping and legal options are less popular than in countries where
          downloading is illegal.”

          First: man, do you know how economical recession is hitting Spain? (>25% of unemployement, lower wages while both prices and taxes are higher (VAT for culture skyrocketed from 8% to 21% to give an excellent example) …). Do you seriously think that in that situation people will spend money in something much less important for life than, for example, food?.
          Legal options are scarce, but it’s not “downloading is legal’s fault”. It’s simply due to Spanish’ main collecting society, the SGAE, does not wanting to lose their part of the cake. Just google and see the kind of people they were.

        • SoundnuoS

          Of course the situation in Spain makes it harder to quantify, available income clearly has an effect.

          But what about the Netherlands? What about the countries where sales verifiably increase (more than in other countries) with measures against piracy?

        • spookyserendipity

          Even if we grant you the notion of copyright somehow equating to property (despite this being inherently ridiculous), deeming it property or not isn’t the crux of the issue. The issue at hand is that infringement is at worst akin to trespass and nothing at all like “theft” for a whole host of logical and moral reasons – and soon to be legal – reasons. The punishment system which you and your ilk seem to advocate is not sustainable and will have no effect on piracy. Never has, never will. Period. The business model the RIAA/MPAA represent is obsolete and very nearly dead. Spending money trying to buy on Congressmen to create laws to prop up a dying business model and/or force consumers to utilize a business model they no longer wish to use and/or forcing competition out of the market rather than innovating and giving the market what it demands will not stop the march of progress. Change is coming in the form of faster, more nimble companies who will meet that market demand and steal your lunch money, whether copyright fascists want to face those facts or not.

        • SoundnuoS

          Re: Spain.
          Spain makes it harder to quantify, since the economic situation will have an effect, but Spain wasn’t the only example given. What about the Netherlands?
          What about the countries with measurable positive sales divergences when laws to curb piracy are enacted?

          Frankly, morally the pirates are wrong here. That’s why laws to curb piracy are justifiable.
          Piracy is clearly a lost sale. The products someone has put out in order to make a living are being taken for free without their consent.
          IP as property is no more questionable than all our other property laws.

          The “give the market what it wants argument” is dead. Cheap and legal digital alternatives have been available for a long time.
          And since when has the seller been forced to accept every whim of a customer?
          If the buyer doesn’t accept the sellers terms he’s free to go without buying. It does not justify him taking it for free anyway.

        • spookyserendipity

          You don’t have a basic understanding of business or economics, so I can tell it’s going to make it difficult to talk to you already. But, let’s give this a try: Spain isn’t “hard to quantify” at all. They are in the middle of a systemic COLLAPSE…a true depression, not just a recession. Spain is in really bad shape. The middle class has been slashed and burned worse than in the US, and that’s saying something. The bottom line is that people have far, far less disposable income to spend on non-necessities than they had even 5 yrs ago. So, again, to drive home a point…there is NO difficulty in understanding Spain. Period.

          As to the Netherlands, their economy has largely recovered from its ’08/09 dip because of trade with Germany (which is kicking some economic ass). The burden of proof as to the causes of any quantifiable/PROVABLE piracy is on you. Just because you say there is a bunch of piracy going on in the Netherlands doesn’t make it accurate or factual. Do you have any references/links to prove this statement?

          In general, sales will fluctuate when newer, hot markets attract purchases and money from increasingly limited budgets. A far larger impact on movie/music sales than piracy is simply the amount of money that people spend on video games and phone apps. Remember, even though the Netherlands is doing pretty well now economically, 78% of their workforce is in the service sector and don’t exactly make a ton of money. They have a low poverty rate and a generally better way of life on average than most of the EU, but it’s expensive to LIVE in just about any place in the world these days (a whole different discussion). Incomes are shrinking compared to the cost of living…and consumers have more choices where to spend their limited disposable incomes. It doesn’t take a genius to understand this is going to impact “older” media sales when consumers spend their finite money supply on “newer” media. Videogames and “apps” win, music and movies lose. It’s just how it works. Crying and blaming it on some unprovable, nebulous concept like piracy doesn’t change the facts on the ground: shifting economics and globally lowered standards of living for most countrys’ populations are far more to “blame” here than people downloading stuff.

          Further, just because you say “piracy is morally wrong”, does not make it so. Copyright laws were not originally enacted for moral reasons and are generally not used for moral reasons now. For the most part, Piracy is a convenient scape-goat for media companies to try to prop up and milk a long-dead business model and try to force consumers to pay for multiple copies of the same media. And many governments are all too eager to go along with it as a means of information flow control and to build a spy network to be used on their own citizens.

          Piracy is NOT clearly a lost sale. That’s a joke of an argument that simply doesn’t stand up to the straight face test. I know plenty of people who use downloaded media as a test drive…and if the media is good then they purchase it. If it’s crap, they delete it. There are always going to be those who will never purchase something regardless of economic circumstance, and in that case there’s no “lost sale” if you could never convince that person to buy your product. Tell me, do you enjoy trying to squeeze blood from turnips in your spare time? lol

          Finally, for you to say “the give the market what it wants argument is dead” is on its face a jaw-droppingly silly and, dare I say, stupid thing to say. The bottom line is that demand drives markets. I suppose you believe in supply-side/voodoo economics even though we have 30+ years of evidence which proves they are an abject failure, eh? ;) Sellers don’t have to heed to every single little thing that buyers want…it’s their decision to commit business suicide by leaving the door open for competitors to come in and give consumers what they want. This is how the free market works, plain and simple. The only way it works differently is when large corporations spend lots of cash buying Congressmen and trying to enact laws to prevent forward progress.

          Sooner or later progress comes…and people like you are always on the wrong side of it and left standing there scratching your heads how you went broke while the guy next to you got rich…giving people what they really want. :)~

        • SoundnuoS

          Spain is hard to quantify because I found numbers saying spaniards buy 1.3 albums per capita in 1994 and less than half an album in 2011, and I had nothing in between.

          Some additional digging gave me this:
          http://www.billboard.com/biz/articles/news/1313777/spain-sales-slump-22-in-2007

          By 2007 music sales in spain had been slumping for 6 years.
          The financial meltdown started in 2007-2008. Before that Spain was in a boom and had been estimated to overtake Germany in per capita income by 2011 (Wikipedia)

          Clearly the economy isn’t the only explanation here.

          What year by 2007 had seen the biggest drop in music sales? 2002, the same year internet usage in Spain doubled from 8.4 mil to 16.7 mil. http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/spain/internet-users

          The Netherlands:
          http://www.futureofcopyright.com/home/blog-post/2011/02/23/dutch-entertainment-industry-reports-deteriorating-sales-figures.html

          Drops in 2010, for computer games as well.
          The Dutch music industry (in 2010) gets 5.7% of its revenues from online music sales, while in the U.S. this percentage is 43.

          About apps and games being the competition:

          An artform that has been a part of human expression for tens of thousands of years, an artform Plato (and others at other times) considered so powerful that he thought it was a potential threat to societal stability, has suddenly within a period of twelve years become totally passé?

          I’m biased of course, but it doesn’t seem likely.

          In my opinion we should see some correlations in that case, but there’s a lot pointing to that music is still pretty popular in general:

          Music is still pirated.
          All but one of the top videos on Youtube are music videos.
          Itunes didn’t flop.
          The iPod was a huge hit:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ipod_sales_per_quarter.svg
          If you look at the chart of the iPod sales you’ll notice that the chart is inverse to the music sales.
          http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-music-industry-sales-2011-2
          When music sales go down, sales of iPods go up.

          The same seems to be true for speaker docks:
          http://www.ipodrepublic.com/lead-story/speaker-dock-success-as-hifi-sales-fall/2011/09/05/

          This has arguably become the primary system for listening to music. Shouldn’t a 50% drop in the interest in music reflect in the sales at least a
          little?

          The “Give the market what it wants” argument is dead because cheap and legal digital options are available.

        • Raff

          There are many factors at play here. The industry is changing, Spain as a country has economic problems but also there is stronger enforcement of copyright now (due to US and EU pressure). Then you have less copying and automatically less advertising. And: You can’t force people to buy stuff if the don’t want it, regardless of laws.

          Also they have found other ways. For example, my friend was in Spain in a small city on a public place and there was not just open WIFI but also (if you have the tools on your phone/laptop) open file servers with 1000s of music files. No enforcement will be ever come to such things.

          Its hard to make something out of the numbers, but at least we should acknowledge that Spain wasn’t and isn’t the primary reason any sort of foreign product – besides especially Spanish content – exists. It always was a tertiary selling place at best.

          Historically low copyright enforcement didn’t create a huge market in this regard. People there are used to watch stuff subbed or/and in its original form.

        • SoundnuoS

          That’s pretty much what the numbers show imo: lack of copyright enforcement creates small markets.
          People get conditioned into thinking music (at least in it’s recorded form) isn’t something you should be paying for.
          Which the numbers in the article from the Netherlands seem to show as well.

      • http://www.facebook.com/nick.broadhead.9 Nick Broadhead

        That is my opinion. As long as making a copy of a file (or book) does not result in a loss of a sale for the author, then it should be allowed. Sure, it may be impossible to determine every case in which access to a free copy DOES result in one less sale, but that is no reason to prevent EVERY copy from EVER being made.

        Yes, it is (or should be) illegal to make a copy with the intent of keeping the original for yourself and giving out the content of the object (the book’s story) to another. But at the same time, copyright holders ought to realize that such “illegal” copying can result in ADDITIONAL sales, as people are reluctant to purchase an object without knowing more about it.

        To some people, without the ability to see a product in its entirety (or at least more than a blurb on a book jacket) they would not be willing to purchase the book at all. But, after reading an unauthorized copy, may determine that the content is worth the amount of money asked and will pay for it, even if they never consume it again.

      • http://twitter.com/CheapassFiction AeliusBlythe

        “….the value in a book isn’t in the paper it’s made of. It’s in the story.”

        So then why would you argue that authors should be paid for the COPY, rather than for their TALENT & the service of storytelling?

        This is very insulting.

        Free sharing allows authors to be paid for their talent and for providing a service that people enjoy – storytelling. Copyright argues that we should be paid for copies that anyone in the world could make. THIS devalues our work.

        • SoundnuoS

          No it does not. Every copy is still telling the same story. Being copied does not change this. The story is still something unique, created by the author.
          The way the modern author provides the service of storytelling is through sales of the copies of her/his story.
          It’s just a more efficient way of passing the hat around the campfire, with the added benefit for the buyer that they get eternal access to the story at their leisure.
          What someone does when they take the copy for free even though they enjoyed the story, is letting the hat pass by without putting anything in it.
          THAT is devaluing your work.

        • MadAsASnake

          Once again those that don’t insulting those that do and know how to profit.

        • SoundnuoS

          Where’s the insult??

        • MadAsASnake

          Aelius certainly appears to feel so, probably because so are try speak on her behalf about things you know jack about, and she does. Those that say a thing cannot be done should stay out of the way of those that are doing it

        • SoundnuoS

          Well, I’m sure she can speak for herself. I have a hard time understanding how authors will be getting paid for creating stories if their readers refuse to pay for them.

        • spookyserendipity

          File-sharing most definitely performs a function as free advertising for any given media. This happens both in terms of simply being made aware of works many/most people wouldn’t have been aware of otherwise and in terms of actual “test it out then purchase it if it’s good” buying patterns.

          Pirates who are poor would never have bought the item to begin with because they cannot afford to, so there is no “lost sale”. However, the upside of having a thriving online community TALKING about your work is definitely something that results in higher peripheral sales. In industry terms, this is colloquially called “buzz” and although difficult to quantify with current measurement devices, “online buzz” is most definitely a phenomenon that is very prevalent in today’s consumer buying patterns. Social networking is one form of this, but there are literally 10s of thousands of other “pre-darknet” (it’s coming to an interwebs near you) online communities which talk about and share info about various products. If your product is good, it does not matter if it is pirated and, in fact, it could be argued that it will actually increase sales beyond the level the work could achieve without pirating helping the sales and pushing buzz.

          The sales potential for any company who correctly understands and taps into this will wipe out the current business model. There are some companies which are trying, but so far the status quo is managing to beat them back via tons of lobbyist cash. Still, change is coming. It can’t be stopped.

        • SoundnuoS

          Every pirate is not poor, a significant part is using it to get stuff without paying.

          Piracy is a lost sale.

          Common sense says that when the exact same product someone is trying to sell is available for free, then a significant percentage of customers won’t pay.

          The 50% drop in music sales since 2000 says it’s a lost sale.

          The fact that more musicians are reporting a drop in royalty income says it’s a lost sale.

          The fact that record sales keep dropping and legal options become less popular when downloading is allowed says it’s a lost sale.

          The fact that sales have a larger comparative increase in countries where measures are being taken against piracy says it’s a lost sale.

          The vast majority of research says piracy is a lost sale.

          The fact that pirates keep saying records should be considered promotion for some imaginary other income says it’s a lost sale.

          “Buzz” is not created through piracy. Things get pirated once enough buzz has been created in other channels to make people notice there’s something there to pirate.
          The fact that, after ten years of piracy, no artist has reached significant reknown through it should point this out.

        • spookyserendipity

          1) “Every pirate is not poor, a significant part is using it to get stuff without paying.”

          I didn’t say every pirate is poor. What I said is there are a significant percentage of pirates who ARE poor. And others who, even if they aren’t poor, would never in a million years buy album X, movie Y, or game Z. But, because of file-sharing, many people get to experience media they wouldn’t otherwise experience or in many cases even know about. The limitations of current content delivery systems is immediately apparent when you spend even a little time trying to find/research/buy various products using “legal” methods and then find them using “pirate” methods. It’s a problem when the “pirate” method of acquiring the media is so much easier and informative. Yes, the cost is part of the reason that some pirates download stuff…but the convenience of the delivery system is also a lot of the problem.

          2) “Piracy is a lost sale.”

          No, it’s not. Do you think you could force someone to buy something they didn’t want, even at gunpoint? I suppose you might think that yes. lol
          But, absent a gun, if someone doesn’t have an interest in a particular piece of media then they are highly unlikely
          to buy it out of sheer curiosity. File-sharing allows many people to casually try out various
          pieces of media they would otherwise never bother checking out…and
          often leads peripheral discoveries of media they had no idea even existed as well as purchases by those who can afford to do so. Sure,
          some steal stuff and never buy it, whether out of principle or because
          they are poor and simply cannot afford it. Others try it and if they like it they’ll buy it. If they
          don’t like it because it’s crap, they delete it.

          3) “Common sense says that when the exact same product someone is trying to
          sell is available for free, then a significant percentage of customers
          won’t pay.”

          As noted, some people who can afford to buy something might pirate it instead. Others might try it first, then buy it if it’s good. Many (most?) people who file-share truly believe in the “try before you buy” model and fortunately (or unfortunately depending on where you stand on this issue) current tech allows for people to do just that…try before you buy.

          4) “The 50% drop in music sales since 2000 says it’s a lost sale.”

          50% drop link/reference? Emerging/competing markets (video games/phone apps/etc…) and a global slip in the middle class standard of living (other than China) could logically be induced to have far more to do with any offsets in music sales than piracy by itself. You’re making a huge leap of logic here to blame piracy for such a massive drop in sales (if true) without taking into account other far more powerful global forces that have occurred in the past 13 yrs: namely that even as the cost of living has skyrocketed, jobs pay less money and people have less money to spend once basic necessities are taken care of.

          5) “The fact that more musicians are reporting a drop in royalty income says it’s a lost sale.”

          Link/reference? I’m curious if this is true or not.

          6) “The fact that record sales keep dropping and legal options become less
          popular when downloading is allowed says it’s a lost sale.”

          Have you considered the fact that record sales might be dropping due to global standard of living factors, people spending their money on other things, and the fact that most modern music sucks? lol And I’m only half joking about that last statement.

          As for why legal options are becoming less popular when downloading is allowed is because the legal options are 1) too expensive for what most people deem a “fair” price to pay and 2) are far less convenient to research/acquire than using file-sharing methods. The free market (AKA, “the people”, consumers, et al) has decided HOW it wants its media. Companies need to offer cheap and easy access to all of their media. Period. That is the only real solution to this problem.

          7) “The fact that sales have a larger comparative increase in countries
          where measures are being taken against piracy says it’s a lost sale.”

          So, which is it? Sales have slipped massively since 2000? Or sales are showing “comparative increases” when fascists can implement draconian punishment systems for file-sharing? It’s a pretty strange claim to say that punishment schemes are working to curb piracy in the same breathe you are trying to convince me that piracy is out of control and somehow costing musicians and middle-men millions of dollars in income. Yes, we should all feel sorry for the no-talent music executive who can only afford 3 homes and 2 Porches now instead of his usual 5 homes and an a helicoptor. lol

          From what I can see, there will always be piracy to some extent and none of the draconian/heavy-handed/punitive attempts to curb it have thus far worked to do anything except perhaps foster ill-will and derision amongst the populace towards media companies.

          8) “The vast majority of research says piracy is a lost sale.”

          What research? The whole “lost sale” argument is on it’s face ridiculous (for
          aforementioned reasons) and would seem exceedingly difficult if not
          impossible to prove with any “research”. As such, this sounds more like
          you stating an opinion and trying to lend it weight with made-up
          “research”. lol But, I’m always open to data if you can provide some….

          Most of the research I’ve seen and heard referenced on this subject
          actually points out that “pirates” as a group actually spend MORE on
          average than non-pirates on all forms of media, which would seem to back
          up the “try before you buy” functionality of current file-sharing systems.

          9) “The fact that pirates keep saying records should be considered promotion for some imaginary other income says it’s a lost sale.”

          I
          don’t see how this equates to proving it’s a lost sale at all. Seeing a
          live concert is certainly qualitatively very different than listening
          to an album. How do you believe this means it’s a lost sale if someone
          thinks that concerts should be a music artist’s primary source of
          income? I love going to concerts because they are an “experience”, even
          if the sad state of the music industry and the “talent” therein means most of the songs on most albums are not worth purchasing by
          themselves.

          10) ” “Buzz” is not created through piracy. Things get pirated once enough
          buzz has been created in other channels to make people notice there’s
          something there to pirate.”

          This statement suggests you don’t have a clear understanding on online business models. “Buzz” is most certainly generated online in a variety of locations, including social networking, pre-darknets and, yes, even from pirating. It’s definitely a circular phenomenon that is somewhat nebulous and difficult to define. The various locations and ease with which media can be found, researched, and tried via file-sharing when they can’t be found elsewhere definitely contributes to product awareness in a big way and is a form of free advertising for products that spreads beyond the pirating communities. Remember, more and more people under the age of 40 don’t get their info from mainstream or TV sources anymore.

          11) “The fact that, after ten years of piracy, no artist has reached significant reknown through it should point this out.”

          Bullshit. The reason no artists have reached reknown in this way is because the current legal/bureaucratic system prevents it from being “legitimate”. The current system is a good ol boys club, nothing more, nothing less. It’s far less about what you can do or who you know than it is about WHO you know and who you blow. This is a fact. The thing that scares the bejesus out of no-talent copyright fascists is that the up and coming model is the ultimate meritocracy…where if you don’t have a notable talent or skill then you won’t have a job to support your cocaine habit. :)~

        • SoundnuoS

          1) 2) and 3)

          Piracy becomes a lost sale when someone who could have afforded it listens to it for six months and then rationalises that they we’re just “checking it out”.
          Piracy becomes a lost sale when someone buys the latest phone using money they saved by not spending it on media.

          The only inconvenience in the legal delivery system compared to piracy these days is having to dig out your credit card.

          The perception of what’s fair and affordable is affected by the fact that a free option is available.
          The movie box office did have a record year, despite the absolute number of tickets sold still being lower than the peak year of 2002.
          This was because ticket prices were raised. People still seem to be willing to pay the higher price though, likely because the big screen movie experience can’t be fully pirated. i.e. free is not available there and the perception of fair pricing becomes different.
          Exactly what we’re seeing with concert tickets.

          4)
          http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-music-industry-sales-2011-2
          The start of the drop coincides with Napster and a large part has taken place before 2007-2008 when unemployment started rocketing. The economy is not a satisfactory explanation here.

          5)
          http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2199058
          Page 41: “Twice as many respondents who compose reported a decrease in mechanical royalties as reported an increase: 50 percent to 24 percent.”

          6)
          Quality of music is subjective.
          Cheap and easy access is offered. Problem should be solved.

          7)
          http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1989240
          Sales of singles increase with 22,5% and albums 25% with the french 3 strikes law. This in comparison with a control group of countries without a similar law.

          Slapping someone on the fingers because they download illegally is imo no more draconian than getting a speeding ticket or being fined for shoplifting.

          8)
          http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2132153
          Authors take a look at the peer reviewed academic research on piracy (before august 2012) and find that the vast majority say piracy damages sales.

          If we look at the numbers from the latest survey on p2p users:

          http://piracy.americanassembly.org/npd-confidential-ii-die-substitution-studies-die/

          we find that 25% buy less than 10% of their music, 16 percent haven’t bought any music at all and on average 50% of a p2pers digital music collection is unpaid for.

          Hardly proof that piracy isn’t a lost sale.

          The numbers comparing legally bought music collections listed music files only. It’s possible the comparative sizes of legally bought collections between p2pers and non-p2pers would have been different if physical media would have been included.

          9)

          Records aren’t promotion. Concerts and records are both products offered for sale. Saying “records should be considered promotion” is a way of rationalising downloading it for free.

          10) and 11)
          Psy wasn’t choked of. Rebecca Black wasn’t choked off. Justin Bieber wasn’t choked off. Pomplamoose weren’t choked off.
          Channels: mostly Youtube.
          Piracy doesn’t contribute anything as a channel in todays internet.

        • spookyserendipity

          I would take it a step further and argue that file-sharing tends to perform very well as a form of free advertising for any given work. There’s already quite a bit of data out there showing that pirates tend to spend much more money on media (videogames/movies/music) than non-pirates.

      • spookyserendipity

        Used/2nd hand/after-market sales have existed in every conceivable market known to man-kind since the beginning of time. Would you likewise outlaw someone selling or buying something used because it would somehow deny the seller of an opportunity to sell another new one? When you sell a used car, do you think the car company has a right to ask you for a percentage of that sale? Your logic is…entertaining…I’ll give it that. lol

        • SoundnuoS

          2nd hand sales are selling copies that are authorised by the creator. The creator was compensated for the sale of them. None of this is true of copies being distributed through piracy.
          I’m sure you see where your logic does not hold up.

        • spookyserendipity

          *sigh* I wasn’t directly equating “used” to “copies”, but rather merely gauging your stance on this issue and how far YOU personally take it. The fascist movement is trying like hell behind the scenes to eliminate used media sales because it is a form of competition to more new sales, so there is indirect and quite logical relevance to understanding the relation.

        • SoundnuoS

          No problem there, we both agree that selling your legally bought copy should be ok (provided that means you actually lose access to the art when you do that)

  • Pingback: If I print 1000 books, all 1000 books are mine. If I sell one book, I have 999 left. « Sharing is Liberty

  • Pingback: Why Do Copyright Monopolists Think They Can Just Take Somebody Else’s Work? « Sharing is Liberty

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=608525922 Ronald MacDonald

    I traded comic books as a kid because I couldn’t afford to constantly purchase new ones, based on RIAA’s and MPAA’s logic I started breaking the law at a very young age.

    • closetothetruth

      no, you didn’t, because you did not create new copies. you own the copies you buy, and that’s all you own–not the right to make and distribute new copies. that’s why “used book stores” were not illegal, when used book stores existed.

      • Guest

        “because you did not create new copies.”

        It wouldn’t make a difference if he had.

        “not the right to make and distribute new copies.”

        Actually I do own that right. And I, like countless others, am not going to let some snotnosed corporate dipshit tell me otherwise.

        Good luck with that war against piracy, son.

        • closetothetruth

          are you paying attention at all? have you ever been in a comic book store, used book store, or used record store? can you find any case law, legislation, or other evidence of copyright holders taking action against people selling already-existing copies of works? (you can’t). making copies is precisley and exactly what copyright law is about: it’s even in the words. making copies for sale or distribution is the only question that is at stake. the original item is yours to do with as you like, including selling it. you might check a site like amazon.com, on which many copies of used books are *legally* for sale right up against the new copies. do you think the publishers all collectively forgot to exercise their rights on that obscure site?

          as my other comments make clear, the anti-copyright movement is actually favored by a huge number of corporations, because they get our work for free. A major part of my argument against anti-copyright views is precisely that they hand over everything individuals due TO corporations, with no compensation to the individuals.

        • BJonesTF

          How about…
          Omega S.A. v. Costco Wholesale Corp.

          no? don’t like that one?

          How about…
          John Wiley & Sons Inc. v. Kirtsaeng ?

          Other cases?
          Vernor v. Autodesk, Inc? UMG Recordings, Inc. v. Augusto

          Those are ones I can remember off the top of my head, just in the US….

        • closetothetruth

          what in the world does Omega S.A. v. Costco Wholesale Corp. have to do with used book stores? it isn’t even in the same ballpark. every one of these cases involves significant details and often other laws/contract issues (importation of foreign goods not destined for sale in a region, etc.) that have nothing in common with the comment that started this thread, that trading comic books is copyright infringement. it is not.

        • Zumzum

          http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012-10-12/finance/34240922_1_copyright-iphone-consumer-groups

          It’s not about whether goods were intended for sale in a foreign region. For US customers this will affect any goods MADE abroad which are destined for sale in the US, which is basically everything these days as most consumable white goods are built in China and the far east. If this legislation gets through it means any company, as the owner of the original copyright, will have the right to stop you selling your goods on when you’ve finished with them as it’ll fall foul of copyright laws!

        • Chewy

          Great examples. i’ll lookem up and see the connection between them and learn something, ratehr than *Farfromtruth* imbecile who loves to open his mouth and wait for a fucking cock to be lunged in.

          ciao.

        • iseewhatyoudidthar

          Actually its the fact that they’re trying to make it illegal to copy your dvd that YOU bought but want to convert to .avi so it runs on your moviebox rather than those blasted annoying dvd players. What about a vhs tape? i bought it, i make a backup copy (and still have the origional) they want that to be illegal so i have to buy it in dvd, and bluray, and the next format, and the next. If i can make a backup that will LAST MY LIFETIME they can’t sell it to me again. Thats the point, not the sell/distribute a million copies crap everyones spewing here. Didn’t see anywhere in the article about sharing a guys work to the world free. You just made that up to twist the argument.

        • MadAsASnake

          and TPP is supposed to make it illegal to carry media over borders.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          In Sweden “fair use” does mean I can manufacture as many copies as I like, for private purposes or to hand out to friends, family, or random aquaintances.

          5,000 copies of every work I have in my possession, as long as I charge nothing for it. I can tote a terabyte hard drive around, offering everyone a copy of my private backup and it would likely be legal.

          But three copies made online and it’s suddenly a no-no.

          “as my other comments make clear, the anti-copyright movement is actually favored by a huge number of corporations…”

          What your other comments make clear is that you are confused, delusional, dishonest, or all three of the above, given how you in some cases tried to present your arguments.

          In real fact the shoe is on the other foot. As you would know if you had one single clue as to how that big and evil FOSS sector you were trying to describe actually worked.

          Or what gain individual programmers gain from forcing corporations to adopt FOSS models.

          All in all you’r commentary reads like a scare tactic of the kind SCO was happy to use back when they were trying to have open source declared unconstitutional.

    • ScrewEwe2

      I started breaking the law at a very young age too. I smoked my first cigarette at the age of 4 with a neighbor kid. Didn’t care for the inhaling part with that first cigarette, but I got used to it.

      • Liam .Jh

        Stick with it and when you get fully grown you can have a pipe.
        Much cooler (match it with a twirly moustache for full effect)

        • ScrewEwe2

          Actually, I’ve got 7 Savinelli Pipes I use on occasion, but the mustache isn’t the twirly type..

      • lifesabitch

        I was using heroin intravenously by the age of 5 and no body cared about me,But now I download a few films and a few dozen albums to make my miserable existent more bearable and I’m treated like a criminal and hounded like a paedophile but that’s has nothing to do with me downloading that was just a drunken mistake,anyway she said she was 16 god dammit

        Anyway back on point this shit ain’t right..

        • ScrewEwe2

          You got me beat. I waited till I was 9 till I started shooting heroin.

  • Fellow Traveler

    The Constitution provides for copyright, for limited time, to encourage the arts and sciences for the purpose of the benefit of all of society.

    Therefore I think a 10-or-20-year copyright should be sufficient, not 70 or 100 years.

    Agreed?

    • closetothetruth

      in case anyone is reading far enough to get to sanity, this is along the lines of what I’d support as well. There is nothing so nuanced in Falkvinge’s article or in most of the comments here. If we could figure out a way to distinguish between individual creators’ rights and those of corporate IP, I’d be in favor of that too, but from what I’ve read, there are far too many marginal cases in between to make that feasible (to take the current example, Joss Whedon and his production company and their interest in The Avengers–both individual and corporate, & with all the other parties involved, very hard to untangle).

      • Andrew me

        They like to muddy the water so that it is harder to see what is going on, if you look at it in simple terms though you can see they are all working together just to create an environment that is harder to do anything in.

      • Scary_Devil_Monastery

        “in case anyone is reading far enough to get to sanity, this is along the lines of what I’d support as well.”

        Then you need to google his book “A case for copyright reform” which outlines precisely this.

        In which case you have been pissing in the wind, proposing stupid arguments simply because you didn’t know what copyright law says nor the reform the Pirate Party want to bring to it.

        Go read up on that and come back better armed with facts about who we are and what we say. Better yet, read some law and history.

    • BuddhaFacePalmed

      I still disagree. 10 to 20 years is far too long for something you’re not suppose to control anyway. I rather it be 5 years or less. With geometrically increased interests when renewing the copyright every year.

  • Guest

    I love to see MAFIAA pretending they care about the creators when in fact all they want is to steal money from the actual ‘artists’.

    I love to see MAFIAA pretending to be fair and just when they are in bed with the government that is against the people who elected it (ironic).

    I love to see MAFIAA pretending copyright is only about getting “free stuff” and that it has nothing to do with knowledge/information which can used against the government (that is against the people who elected it).

    Conclusion: people feel and know they are being ripped off by MAFIAA and they don’t like to give money to big corporations unless they don’t have a choice = Internet. The “internet is a serie of tubes” that can be used against the establishement (ie, government that is against the people who elected it).

    The fight to control the internet is the same fight to control people. Simple.

    • http://modmyi.com/forums/iphone-4-new-skins-themes-launches/740147-neurotech-hd.html#post5637502 Jay

      Uhg. The MPAA represents a series of corporations that pay artists to create artwork for them. They’re a business that wants to make money and protect their investment, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Some artists may feel they’re mistreated, but to them I say “Don’t sign the fucking contract if you don’t like the rules.”

      • Guest

        There’s nothing wrong with wanting to make money and protect an investment, but there’s sure as shit something wrong with the way the MPAA tries to go about it.

        • http://modmyi.com/forums/iphone-4-new-skins-themes-launches/740147-neurotech-hd.html#post5637502 Jay

          Yeah, true, but they wouldn’t have to be that way if not for amateur, unlawful distributors of their investments.

          I have a saying: if you don’t like firefighters then don’t light fires.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Yeah, true, but they wouldn’t have to be that way if not for amateur, unlawful distributors of their investments.”

          Ah, so the uppity bitch had it coming?

          Wife beaters and lynch mobs alike are very keen on that argument.

          And if you truly believe that someone “has” to be that way then you’ve delivered a defense argument for quite a lot… My Lai, Abu Ghraib, and any other place people “had” to blow off steam by hurting people. Means to an end.

      • Andrew me

        So you must disagree with the system that exist now then? I mean if you do not sign up to one of the big labels the chance of you getting in radio or tv is minuscule to impossible, they have it all tied up so that only they can authorise which music is played, and for movies it is even worse, if you do not pay massive fees to have your movie rated and if it is not licensed and all the other charges they impose on you, you will never be able to get your movie into a theatre. Now if you think that is fair then you are the one with the problem here.

        • http://modmyi.com/forums/iphone-4-new-skins-themes-launches/740147-neurotech-hd.html#post5637502 Jay

          I disagree with some of the tactics used by the MPAA, sure, but that doesn’t mean I think the entire endeavor should be abandoned.

          Money, by its nature, grants one power to do all kinds of things – life was never meant to be fair, Andrew.

          If you really want to see unfair practices check out the tactics used by worker unions. Under unions, a company has to both follow the law of the land (high taxes and regulations) AND they must negotiate with their workers for worker pay and benefits, despite how much profit that company makes. Essentially these workers get to write their own laws within the company. Eventually the company, instead of using its money to expand or innovate, must pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to employees that no longer even work at that company. How is that fair?

          The entire movie industry is unionized. THAT is where the problem lies.

        • Andrew me

          As i have said , the big business interest have destroyed a lot of consumer unions and organisations, what we have is an economy that is in the throws of complete chaos where at any moment it could collapse because if their power grab. This is what happens when the law is corrupted. I know nothing is fair but even you should not accept being ripped of so badly. Copyright is one of the ways everyone is being ripped of including the artists , but things balance out eventually.

        • spookyserendipity

          The system is self-correcting. It is usually painful when it self-corrects. But, it always does.

        • http://modmyi.com/forums/iphone-4-new-skins-themes-launches/740147-neurotech-hd.html#post5637502 Jay

          I don’t think copyright rips off of artists. Companies pay for the rights by giving the artists money to make their art. One could say it’s not ‘fair’ that a corporation they’re working for takes more money than the sole artist that made the work, but that’s very of naive. These large corporations are huge networks that employ a lot of people, so the money gets spread around judiciously. Sure, the bulk of the profits goes to the corporation, but don’t forget that the corporation does the heavy lifting through the magic of distributed labor and a conveniently-entrenched network built upon, potentially, millions of man-hours.

          If you were to wipe industry off the face of the Earth, it would eventually evolve into the exact same system, flaws and all. There will always be flaws in the system, but that does not justify destroying the system.

          “An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.” *H. L. Mencken (1880 – 1956)*

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Seems to me what you are saying all boils down to that there is no longer a baby in the bathwater.

        • spookyserendipity

          Of all the things obviously wrong with the MPAA approach to dealing with this issue…of all the economic, political, philosophical, and moral problems to address…you side-step it all and pick out “unionized Hollywood” as somehow being the “problem”. Classic. Methinks you need to put down the Limbaugh/Beck/Hannity and step away slowly. lol

  • http://modmyi.com/forums/iphone-4-new-skins-themes-launches/740147-neurotech-hd.html#post5637502 Jay

    The logic of this article is infantile and insulting. Just because you can get it for free does NOT mean it’s worthless.

    • Anyone

      of course it does mean that
      but what it doesn’t mean is that you can’t make money with it

      water is basically free in most western countries
      yet, bottled water companies make a great living, selling what is available for free

      you just need a working business model
      insulting and sueing your customers is NOT a working business models

  • Brazilian

    the author doesn’t argue anything about rights and copyright…this article is misleading the point…sorry but I was expecting more…really… your labor…doing a copy… come on…at least argue about the property right you speak here….Hey TF…get better columnists please….

    • Liam . Jh

      Its an opinion piece, not news, he is entitled to his opinion as you are.

  • bobmail

    Rick, as always, your logic is slightly warped.

    You forget in the music and movie world that the “shiny object” that you purchase is just a carrier, a delivery method. In simple terms, you are confusing the paper with the words on the paper, or the pages of a book with the content of the book.

    Owning a copy of the book doesn’t give you ownership of the words, just that single copy (with the rights that come with that purchase).

    “When I manufacture another copy of The Avengers using my own property and my own labor, copyright monopolists somehow believe they have a right to the fruits of my labor. I find that idea offensive and insulting.”

    What is offensive is that for a guy who claims to be so intelligent, that you are seemingly unable to separate out the product from the delivery method. You don’t own The Avengers, you don’t own the rights to reproduce it, and in doing so, you infringe of the ownership and rights of others.

    Your logic pretty much goes down the line of “I rented a hotel room for the night, therefore I own the hotel”. It’s really amazing to see that a guy who seems so smart manages to miss the basics.

    • MastrLnk

      You shouldn’t be able to own concepts or ideals.

    • Anyone

      he did address that false analogy
      you cannot sell content, you cannot own content

      you can sell plastic discs, and those are then the property of the buyer
      if you restrict what he can do with his property you are infringing on his property rights, not the other way around

      if you actually offer a service, such as streaming services, you’d have a point, in that case the files are not sold, you are simply “renting” them, just like in a hotel

      but if you sell something, you give up the property rights on what you have sold

      • bobmail

        The issue is that the ownership of the plastic disc is a tied sale – that is to say that while you OWN the disc, you don’t own the content. The resale of the owned product (the shiny plastic disc) is therefore restricted because you cannot resell the content in the same manner.

        When you purchase a DVD, you are basically owning the plastic, but buying a limited lease on the content. The only think sold is the plastic disc, not the ownership of the movie.

        Rick is very specifically NOT understanding the concept because it doesn’t align with his world view. His logic is exactly the hotel room – thinking that “ownership” of the plastic key imparts ownership of the hotel. it really isn’t the case, you may have control of the plastic, but you don’t suddenly own what you got a limited license to access.

        Remember, he can in fact sell on his shiny plastic disc, but he cannot legally make copies of it to sell. Further, he cannot sell on his plastic disc (with the movie on it) after ripping a backup copy for himself, because he is not selling on the product that he bought in it’s entirety. He would be attempting to retain certain rights, and sell a new set of rights to someone else, which he is not permitted to do.

        • Actually

          Actually he can on sell it. He just can’t keep the copy he had as a backup. Also the funky cool lisence agreement at the start says you cannot LEND that film to your friends or you face fines and jailtime. Which is actually illegal. They’re making up their own law right there.

        • insanity

          I think some of them even have cannot be watched by more than 5 people at once. WTF sort of law is that other than one made up by a meglomaniac corporate bloodsucking parasite?

        • UncleFunk

          That onscreen license is unenforceable, because you have to buy the product in the first place to be given access to a copy of the license, by which time you cannot be expected to abide by certain additional conditions that you weren’t aware of when you first purchased the product. Attempting to impose those restrictions onto you at such a time is an unfair practice and has been shown to be legally worthless in court before now.

        • Andrew me

          no , what i do in the privacy of my home is my own responsibility, i have purchsed a dvd and i will do whatever i want with it , rip it and give away copies , make 100

        • icec0ld

          “The issue is that the ownership of the plastic disc is a tied sale – that is to say that while you OWN the disc, you don’t own the content. The resale of the owned product (the shiny plastic disc) is therefore restricted because you cannot resell the content in the same manner”

          I own the disk and anything on it. Trying to separate ownership in modules like that leaves us with an interesting legality where Seagate hardrives gets to own the content I put on the hard drives I’ve purchased.

          “When you purchase a DVD, you are basically owning the plastic, but buying a limited lease on the content. The only think sold is the plastic disc, not the ownership of the movie.”

          Wrong.

          If all I owned was the plastic and not the movie how would I allow said person to see the movie? You cannot separate what the disc is and what is on the disc without violating ownership rights grossly.

          “Rick is very specifically NOT understanding the concept because it doesn’t align with his world view. His logic is exactly the hotel room – thinking that “ownership” of the plastic key imparts ownership of the hotel. it really isn’t the case, you may have control of the plastic, but you don’t suddenly own what you got a limited license to access.”

          Again, I own the medium and everything on that medium. I am allowed to do with my property as I see fit because of this.

          A hotel is a horrible example since when I purchase a DVD/game/album I do not have to give the product back.

          “Remember, he can in fact sell on his shiny plastic disc, but he cannot legally make copies of it to sell. Further, he cannot sell on his plastic disc (with the movie on it) after ripping a backup copy for himself, because he is not selling on the product that he bought in it’s entirety. He would be attempting to retain certain rights, and sell a new set of rights to someone else, which he is not permitted to do”

          You’ve contradicted yourself. First you say there is no right to copy since you can’t own the content on the disk (laughable) and then you say you can make a back up.

          Make up your mind.

        • bobmail

          “If all I owned was the plastic and not the movie how would I allow said person to see the movie? You cannot separate what the disc is and what is on the disc without violating ownership rights grossly.”

          Same answer I gave the scary devil: What do you think of a digital download? The rights to the content don’t change based on the media you choose to store it on.

          “You’ve contradicted yourself. First you say there is no right to copy since you can’t own the content on the disk (laughable) and then you say you can make a back up.”

          Umm, under the law, provided you don’t break a drm or circumvent protection, you can legally make backup copies. There is no contradiction, I was only assume (I guess incorrectly) that you had a clue about the law.

          Those copies do not imply ownership, however. You still don’t own the movie. You have purchased a collection of rights, delivered on disc, on a memory car, via digital download, whatever… but you purchased the same rights, not ownership.

          Sorry to burst your arrogant bubble.

        • icec0ld

          “Same answer I gave the scary devil: What do you think of a digital download? The rights to the content don’t change based on the media you choose to store it on.”

          You’re right on one thing, the rights don’t change based on the media because they stay the same as I’ve stated. I own and thus have the right to produce as many copies as I wish..

          “Umm, under the law, provided you don’t break a drm or circumvent protection, you can legally make backup copies. There is no contradiction, I was only assume (I guess incorrectly) that you had a clue about the law.”

          I provided no law.

          You say I don’t own he rights to copy and promptly state I can. You won’t police the use of copies and have constantly taken the stance of a strict hard line “no copying” in past.

          Make up your damned mind or give your other personality a separate account so I can tell you apart

          “Those copies do not imply ownership, however. You still don’t own the movie. You have purchased a collection of rights, delivered on disc, on a memory car, via digital download, whatever… but you purchased the same rights, not ownership..”

          No. I have not. Any bill of sale will show that I am clearly paying for the music. No company has any right to tell me what I can and cannot own on anything they sell to me because I already own it.

          It is ownership. Trying to compartmentalize it is unenforceable not to mention incredibly stupid and beyond common sense.

          If selling someone a box tells me I don’t own what is inside I can rightly tell them to fuck off. I own the disc and what’s on it. End of story mate.

          “Sorry to burst your arrogant bubble.”

          What bubble? We’ve established what ownership rights entail.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Same answer I gave the scary devil: What do you think of a digital download? The rights to the content don’t change based on the media you choose to store it on.”

          You mean the one where party A offers a service to party B which consists of making a set of information available so party B can create a copy of said information, using his/her own materials and effort?

          Yea, that “answer” simply means “I haven’t the faintest clue what I’m talking about so I’ll keep pretending that the term ‘downloading’ entails magically teleporting bits of my property on to other people’s property.

          Gosh. bobmail…do you have any argument which doesn’t border on religious or deluded? Preferably one which indicates you have a clue how things actually work.

        • Andrew me

          “When you purchase a DVD, you are basically owning the plastic, but
          buying a limited lease on the content. The only think sold is the
          plastic disc, not the ownership of the movie.”

          Rubbish, i own what is in my hands and that is a copy of a movie. I dont own a licence to watch that movie, i purchase a DVD and i own it and everything that is on it.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          And once again bobmail, you demonstrate to everyone that you do not have the faintest flipping clue as to what copyright actually says.

          Or how the law is interpreted by a judge.

          It is perfectly clear. Content can not be owned and copyright law works based on this assumption.

          If the first half of your argument is true, copyright law is completely invalid. In the other half of your argument, as some people have pointed out, you contradict the first one.

          The reason is, of course, that modern copyright in practice tries to have it both ways. Creating a very one-sided and completely rightsless condition for whoever is dumb enough to purchase a piece of media over which some other unnamed agency then holds vetoing property rights.

          Leaving you having to perform the semantic equivalent of chinese contortions in order to try to get a single point across.

        • bobmail

          Have you every been in a courtroom for a copyright care?

          Have you actually sat down with lawyers on both sides and listened to them carefully?

          Have you actually read a ton of judgement (not just the ones you like) that explain it better?

          I doubt it.

          The ownership issue is a lame argument, as it’s pretty much black letter law – the creator is granted copyright, which is basically a leasehold ownership for the period of copyright. At the end of that period (and not before) the leasehold expires and the work enters into the public domain.

          That “leasehold” is property, it can be sold, it can be transferred, it can be rented, and all of those other things that apply to ownership.

          Anyway, your arguments are weak, because you are fixated on a shiny plastic disc. The rights to the content aren’t any different on a digital download, are they? Do you think that the ownership of your hard drive suddenly gives you ownership of the movie?

          Your logic fails. Stop making yourself look bad.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “The ownership issue is a lame argument, as it’s pretty much black letter law – the creator is granted copyright, which is basically a leasehold ownership for the period of copyright.”

          No it isn’t, because the problem is that you can not implement a “leasehold ownership” on property which you do not own. Such as a part of a hard drive owned by a third party with which you have neither contact with nor which has had contact with your property.

          This is why manufacturing a copy can be unlawful but owning a copy made illegally is, in itself, not.

          Would the courtroom you imply you sat down in be the same one containing Mike Masnick and the other famous names you dropped in order to “prove” you knew how IT worked?

          It might fit the bill given that your argument – or at least the conclusions you’ve drawn out of your hypothetical courtroom – are of the same calibre. Fantasy spun out of whole cloth.

          Copyright is at the end of it a state-granted privilege to override other people’s property rights. There is no way around that fact.

          And that this can not be used in a court of law is similar in many ways to which before Rosa Parks sat her ass down on the bus, the idea that all men were equal under the law did not in practice apply in the US south in 1950.

          “Anyway, your arguments are weak, because you are fixated on a shiny plastic disc. The rights to the content aren’t any different on a digital download, are they? Do you think that the ownership of your hard drive suddenly gives you ownership of the movie?”

          That’s all backed by law, logic, and common sense. Were it like you say any person who manufactured a copy would suddenly be in the possession of your property – their hard drive. And you would have the right by default to have any such handed over to you after police action.

          This is why the law we are talking is called COPYRIGHT.

          And why possession of an illegally manufactured copy is not unlawful (as ACTA would have tried making it), whereas manufacturing the copy IS.

          Unbelievable. You don’t have the faintest fucking clue about any topic you care to comment on.

          If you ever find yourself in front of a multiple-choice questionnaire, flipping a coin may be to your benefit compared to what happens when you apparently try to reason things out.

    • Guest

      “You forget in the music and movie world that the “shiny object” that you purchase is just a carrier, a delivery method. “

      No, he fully understands that’s what the copyright monopoly thinks.

      He’s just pointing out that the copyright monopoly is mistaken.

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      “Your logic pretty much goes down the line of “I rented a hotel room for the night, therefore I own the hotel”.”

      No, what he is saying is that if you rented a hotel room and then decide to remodel a room all your own as that motel room, the hotel owner has nothing to do with it.

      Amazing. This time you started with the invective first and presented the false assumption at the bottom with the argument presuming the last in the middle.

      You think presenting a big whopping lie becomes more palatable depending on in which order you add the falsehoods and invective?

      All in all, unfortunately for you neither the law nor normal definition of “copyright” – or any other property right – supports your explanation given above. “Content” is not property and you can not possess ownership of it. Rick knows this because he has studied how copyright law is written and interpreted.

      That you appear not to and try to argue your way around it suggests either that you haven’t got a clue as to how copyright operates – or that you do and are, in fact, peddling one lie after another in order to explain away what the law actually says and how it has traditionally been interpreted by judges.

      So, we come right back to where Rick actually presents a proof-positive comment and where all you have is attempts at calling him “mistaken” without being able to refute even a single one of his claims.

      • bobmail

        Rick has studied copyright law, and like many zealots on the subject, has convinced himself of it’s problems without any real supporting data.

        He reminds me of Larry Lessig trying to push the 1st Amendment arguments against copyright. The justices pretty much laughed his ass out of court with that one.

        Rick present no such “proof positive” beyond a Reagan style voodoo economics picture of “remove copyright and stuff will happen fast”. He doesn’t explain or even consider how things will really work or the true economic implications of his ideas, he is just steadfastly stuck on the “blocking progress” argument that is nonsensical from the word go.

        • Liam .Jh

          And you seem to be stuck with the belief that a third party organisation has the right too profiteer off creators/artists. You also believe that it is right for monopolies to pay for laws to be passed at the detriment of freedom of expression and personal privacy.

        • MadAsASnake

          voodoo ecomics is the preserve of mpaa et al, not us

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Rick has studied copyright law, and like many zealots on the subject, has convinced himself of it’s problems without any real supporting data.”

          Whereas you have demonstrably proven you are ignorant of just about every topic you have so far deigned to comment on. Whether it concerns logic, IT, law or history.

          Since you haven’t even the faintest flipping clue what copyright is – as you so amply prove, above – why don’t you be so kind as to regale us with your own data on the matter?

          Or is it just “Hey, we’ve gotten away with it so far, don’t rock the boat”?

    • toads

      Spot on Bobmail, Spot on again!! I feel you are wasting your time though trying to educate this gang of thieving wankers. They cannot see past their own green and are very narcisstic.
      Leave them to their shitpit, because all this is going to change soon. Once a few of them get rammed up the arse with massive fines and 10 year jail terms the others will jujst shit their pants and crawl away like the spinless turds they are.
      FUCKING DOGS they are.

      • MadAsASnake

        Take your meds and get back to your lockup please. We don’t need your bile here

      • Scary_Devil_Monastery

        And once again the would-be brit makes an appearance.
        If he even knew how to spell what his English á la Hooligan suggests is his mother tongue.

        Ah, Bobmail is certainly backed by the finest of the crop.

  • Aaaa

    I dont support the type of copyright enforcement taking place but thats a totally ridiculous argument. And you know it. Unless your trying to be a comedian. In that case dont quit your day job.

    • Aaaa

      I started thinking about this and maybe your right. Pro Copyright groups along with prosecutors make totally ridiculous claims about things so why shouldnt others.

    • Andrew me

      maybe it sounds crazy, but the vhs machines sounded crazy to many too, and look what that did for the industry.

  • screw you guys im going home

    What is the cost of piracy?

    “More than $58bn is lost annually due to content theft,
    including more than 373,000 lost American jobs,” the Motion Picture
    Association of America (MPAA) has quoted

    The Motion Picture and Video industries employed 270,000 people
    and the music industry employed about 45,000 in 1998, the Bureau of
    Labour Statistics said

    The number employed in the film industry was calculated at 352,340 in 2011

    “Total movie revenues are up and total TV, satellite and cable
    revenues are way up. Other content markets like book publishing and
    radio are also up,” author and entrepreneur Rob Reid said in a TED talk

    • bobmail

      Actually, movie revenues in 2012 are up slightly, but still WAY off it’s peak just before the piracy issue came into play. This even with much higher higher ticket prices, which means that the number of people paying to see a movie is way down from it’s peak, even as the population has increased and the movie industry has gotten access to the huge new market of China.

      Revenues generally are up because of higher per unit pricing, and not because of significantly increased demand. It’s misleading to assume health under those circumstances, as the pricing model is almost outside of what most people are willing to spend.

      • bobmailyoutrollingcock

        Any increase in revenue for any business in this current economy climate is good not all business make huge profits year after year you know especially in a recession sorry economic down turn, That’s something the media industry seems to have forgotten ,Projected profits are just that and rather then look at their own failings as an industry they look for someone else to blame like a petulant child,Changing their current business model and adapting with the times is not an option for these guys so they choose to charge their loyal customer base more for the same product all the time blaming the bogeymen on the internet,Is it any wonder people choose to find what they want else where and vote with there feet.

        • Andrew me

          What is amazing is they do not see the potential to create a nice income stream from the people who just want stuff cheap or even free, they are not prepared to change their business model just as they did not want to have any form of home entertainment when the vhs was created . I see the only way forward is for the governments around the world to force them to accept the changes and deal with it. Force them to have to start a new business model or let others that have found ways to create a revenue stream from supplying the content free to customers take over.

        • Guest

          No, what the entertainment industries like to do is proudly proclaim that they’re a “recession-proof industry” and have made lots of money – yet somehow, they’re still being devastated by piracy.

          Anyway, wasn’t the whole “artists” excuse already debunked by bobmail? He’s already claimed that he doesn’t give two shits about the artists’ perspective.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          He did indeed. And that is as good as telling everyone his main perspective is exclusively from the middleman side.

          Which of course means another few months and “bobmail” will vanish to be replaced by a new nickname. Again.

      • Guest

        movie revenues in 2012 are up slightly, but still WAY off it’s peak just before the piracy issue came into play.

        Fuck your lies. The movie industry made more revenue in 2012 than ever before.

        http://www.the-numbers dot com/market/

        If you look at the numbers you’ll also see that revenue shot way up right when movie piracy came into play. That’s also when ticket sales peaked. Speaking of which, ticket sales had a resurgence in 2012 .

        Why do you even bother telling these lies when I can effortless debunk them in like 2 minutes, Bob?

        • bobmail

          Guest, please fuck off and pay attention.

          READ CAREFULLY: in 2003, the movie industry sold 1.58 billion tickets. In 2012, they sold 1.37 billion. Yes, with the signfiicant increases in ticket prices, the net number is up slightly, but not much.

          What you are missing is the areas that piracy hit the hardest: Sales of DVDs and such. I invite you to go back and look even a few years back, where things use to really move.

          DVD sales continue to drop, and digital distribution and bluray sales are not making up for it. Net after everything, income is down.

          Of course, you can keep narrowly focusing on box office, but perhaps if you did a little research, you would realize the bunk is all from you.

        • BuddhaFacePalmed

          Well, you did forget the recession caused by Bush Jr. And the fact that tickets cost more in 2012 than they did in 2003. So,even with less ticket sales they made more money by charging more per ticket.

        • Bobmule

          Bob, please grow up and pay attention too.

          Not all money spent on entertainment is spent on going to the cinema, DVD releases, renting movies or even on movies AT ALL. The same goes for music. There is another huge market for entertainment spending which has boomed since the year 2000 – video games. Globally in 2003 the industry was worth around 23 billion US dollars, and by 2011 (the last full-year set of figures available at this time) that value had risen to around 65 billion US dollars.

          It’s a white elephant in the room whenever copyright maximalists start to say that music and movie sales (in terms of quantity rather than total income) have slumped in the last 10 years. Could it be that people are spending less on those forms of entertainment because they’re spending more of their finite disposable income on something else? I’d wager it’s a much bigger factor than the negligible effect ‘piracy’ has had.

          Again, I hear the same old arguments about ‘lots jobs’ due to ‘piracy’ by those copyright maximalists, but they conveniently ignore the reality that most of it has been due to the explosion in popularity of downloadable media at the expense of demand for physical media and the production, distribution and retail services associated with that physical media.

          There are all these half-truths bandied about which shows one set of stats (even if they show that profits are still running high or breaking records) held up as an example of the death of an industry, whilst trying to sweep the inconvenient associated set of stats which show this to be bunkem under the carpet.

          Apologists like you are arguing for the wholesale censoring of society on a global scale for the benefit of a very small handful of people.

        • http://gene-poole.tumblr.com Gene Poole

          dvds? created from the market of video cassettes sales? The thing that Jack Valenti didn’t want, because it would be to the film industry what the boston strangler is to every woman alone?

          You’ll forgive us if we don’t exactly shed a tear over losses in dvd sales. You guys never had any right to them in the first place, you fought against it so hard.

        • MadAsASnake

          put the price up, you will sell less. economics 101, not piracy

        • spookyserendipity

          Large gaps in logic/facts here as you attempt to conflate piracy with dropped ticket sales, when in fact there is zero evidence to support your claim.

          First, while this is by no means exhaustive, let’s talk some basic economic history: 1) By 2003, the US economy had emerged full-throated from the relatively minor 2001/2002 recession and began a steady climb as the Bush administration helped build the bubble economy, convincing people their homes were ATM machines…spurring Americans to go on a debt-fueled spending binge for 5+ years even as the White House helped supercharge the US’s largest corporation’s efforts to off-shoring 10s of millions of living wage jobs to other countries in order to rake in massive profits on the backs of foreign slave labor. The net effect: the US economy was already on the way down by ’04/05, but some clever smoke & mirrors helped Americans remain oblivious to it for 2 more years as their livelihoods were sent to China/India. And, so, they did what Bush asked them to do after 9-11 to make it all better: go shopping.

          2) In 2012, we were still experiencing severe after-effects of the ’07/08 crash (which top US financial institutions caused with the help from Bush’s smoke & mirror policies). Statistically, the US is still experiencing a “jobless recovery” which is in many ways worse on a % basis than the Great Depression. With literally 10s of millions of middle class jobs GONE and record levels of debt, Americans simply have less disposable cash reserves to spend. It can easily cost $50 or more for a family of 4 to go see a 1st run movie. New releases on DVD and BR are $15-30. This is money that many millions of Americans simply do not have to spend each month after paying for rent, food, insurance, etc…. The bottom line is that replacement jobs for the ones which have been sent overseas pay significantly less. And millions can find no work at all.

          3) People have more options to spend their money on these days if they do have some to spend. Just because sales for 1st run films are down does not automatically mean it is because of piracy. More likely it is because people would rather spend their money on apps for their phones…or videogames…or a cooking class or going back to school to get retrained to try to find a job that pays more than minimum wage. I think you get the idea.

          4) The actual cost of movies and especially videogames remains significantly above what most consumers consider fair. A recent study showed that most people think a fair price for a new videogame is about $30…roughly HALF what actual new price. The disparity with movies is similar with the perceived “fair” price for a new DVD/BR being about $8. Music CD “fair” price is about $5. I’ll have to see if I can locate the link to that study as it was very interesting and worth sharing. Basically it points out that most people view the current prices for media to be at least 2-3 times higher than what they are willing to pay.

          Common sense would indicate that a combination of factors is contributing to lowered sales. Many millions of people are unemployed, underemployed, and/or have fallen out of the middle class and simply don’t have the money to spend that they did 10 or 15 years ago. And of those who do have a little extra money, they don’t think most media products are by and large worth the current asking price.

          Make better products + Lower the prices = raise sales. (Humble Bundle is an example of this philosophy working wonderfully AND being highly profitable).

      • ScrewEwe2

        If it didn’t cost $11 to see a movie, $8 for a medium buttered popcorn and $6 for a large soft drink maybe more people could afford to go out to see a movie once in a while. That’s $25.00 for one person to go see a movie. I’ll continue to buy Filet Mignon once in a while, stay home and get my movies from Netflix and Redbox. (3 large Fillet Mignon @ Sams Club go for about $25)

        • Anyone

          you can only indirectly blame the popcorn and drink on the MAFIAA
          the demand such a high % from the cinema from the tickets that they need to overcharge on popcorn and drinks to survive

        • MadAsASnake

          Which is why there are so many empty seats in cinemas these days

      • bobmails-a-c*nt

        “Actually, movie revenues in 2012 are up slightly, but still WAY off it’s peak just before the piracy issue came into play.”

        So fucking what. The issue is that theirs is an outmoded way of doing business and they either dont want or are unable to change and adapt to the internet age. If they dont want to change, then bye bye, no loss to humanity. If they are unable to change, then bye bye, no loss to humanity. People who are able to provide media, profitably and in the manner the masses want will eventually fill the gaps that these dinosaurs leave behind when they fall.

        Buying politicians and rewriting laws (in my and many peoples eyes illegally, or at least it fucking should be) to try and prop up their failing outmoded business models is only prolonging the inevitable.

        So let the revenues drop to the point where these fuckers start floating belly up as far as I care, and bring on the new generation.

      • ktetch

        Erm, I think the pollution there has gotten to you, bob. I just checked the numbers.
        Actually, I lied, I just checked the numbered I crunched years ago, when I first heard that argument. Up to 2008, ticketed attendance (at least in the US) was up from 98-2007

        Heck, here’s a graph of the combined top5 and top-10 films (the ‘blockbustered’, which you’ve said are more likely to be pirated) and to make it nice and easy for you, it even has the timespans of various p2p networks marked on it.
        http://torrentfreak.com/images/box-office-graph-2a-small.png

        Enjoy.

      • ktetch

        oh, and by ‘up slightly’, do you mean ‘up 6.5%’ over 2011? Which the MPAA called their best every year? http://torrentfreak.com/pirates-hollywood-sets-10-billion-box-office-record-121231/
        at $10.7BILLION domestically?
        I mean sure it’s off it’s peak pre-napster which was, hang on, let me check – 1198′s revenue was… $6.94Billion. Yeah, you’re SO right, That $10.9Billion is a lot less than $6.9billion.
        The problem is that clearly, you’re bad at business, OR the film studios are bad at business (if you’re less profitable, despite a 35% increase in revenues, then you’ve no business being in business)
        Either way, someone’s clearly handling their money wrongly somewhere. Maybe we should start requiring films to be publicly audited, and have their books available for inspection.
        You up for that?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gear-Mentation/100003097514663 Gear Mentation

    Your analysis is flawed: Shiny things are physical objects, and are subject to a particular difficulty in reproduction, which may get close to zero, but not VERY close. Information costs close to zero to REPRODUCE, but does NOT cost close to zero to PRODUCE. Copyright exists to make sure that information is treated as if it were a physical object so that people will continue to produce it. Copyright law dictates that information will NOT cost zero to reproduce. This is its intent, whether or not it works PROPERLY. Talking about information as if it were IN FACT a physical object is wrong.

    • Zumzum

      Let’s see how this argument for the structure of copyright persists in the face of the growth of personal 3D printing. People making their own shiny things for very little or close-to-zero cost (which it will become eventually). Interesting times ahead.

    • MadAsASnake

      Copying information today is effectively free. Copyright law does not change that, nor is it the purpose of copyright. Up until the tapes, video cassettes domestic users had little scope for this. Today they do. Copyright does not magically morph to suit this silly argument

  • dndjdjjd

    I think Diablo 3 said you paid for disc itself and the packaging. You purchased a right to use the game yet you do ot own the contents on the disk.

    Nowadays you have to agree to some outrageous shet just to buy or use a product in some legalese terms of conditions. Look at windows. If you want a computer that works with almost any product your forced to agree to their TOS. Or get Linux or Mac.

    I’m tired of people telling me I have to agree to this or that or be at a disadvantage by not having their product. Companies have no right to put terms on

    • joexxx

      Do you always drive at or below the speed limit?

  • Byte Master

    The problem is: what are we going to do about it. Rick started the Pirate Party; the problem is that PPs are often ridiculed and by its enemies forced to formulate a position and solution for as many non-Pirate issues as possible.

    Pirate Parties need to learn to say: “you know what, that’s a very valid issue, and when we grow we will be happy to discuss that with our members, but for the moment we are picking up the slack that other parties intentionally choose to ignore. So we will not cloud our issues by discussing everything under the rainbow.” It also needs to learn how to “rally the troops” when elections are happening; people are lazy and except in the few cases where there are mandatory voting laws they will not go out and vote.

    The biggest challenge is the European Elections of 2014. How can we get every PP supporter to go vote, and make sure that everyone they know that supports Pirate issues but doesn’t care about the EU makes an exception this time and actually goes out and casts their vote?

  • Cal

    The economics of this argument may be right: you sell things, they’re not yours any more. However the pricing is wrong because in this scenario each artist can only expect to sell one work – like many painters still do – as once the file is in somebody else’s hands they can legitimately reproduce it ad infinitum for others. But there’s a reason painters charge so much for their paintings that they only get one chance to sell, they’ve got to earn enough to live on whilst they’re working on their art. So as long as we wouldn’t mind initially paying thousands for a song or hundreds of thousands for a movie, that might just work. Copyright has undoubtedly allowed a lot of untalented greedy middlemen to grow fat, but we will not defeat it with this argument.

  • ThumbsUpThumbsDown

    The Idea that the current Copyright regime is actual enacted Law is Fact.

    Corporate Copyright Holders tells us, “Ultimately, that is the ONLY argument we need to make! The sheer factuality of existing Law is ALL that’s necessary as explanation or Justification of our privileges.”

    Yet, what they’re facing is no small challenge.

    They have lost way too many of the prior three generations; way too many grandfathers and fathers; and, way too many of the most talented and inspired minds of the rising new generation, who can NOT be made to believe that a Perpetual Corporate Domain in Intellectual Property is anything other than a moral, intellectual, and political disgrace; and, who can NOT be coerced to abide by this disgrace by means of ANY imaginable abuse of POWER.

    THIS is an Intellectual, Moral, and Political Crisis that will only become worse for the existing Corporate Copyright regime.

    The more Power they apply, the more obvious will be their illegitimacy; and, the more they will expedite their abolition.

    • spookyserendipity

      Exactly right. Their own efforts to tighten the noose on pirates is creating a steadily increasing backlash and market demand for a better alternative that meets the needs/desires of consumers rather than a ham-fisted attempt to continue shoving an obsolete business model down everyone’s throats. It’s already over for these fascists, but don’t expect them to go down without a fight and a blaze of inglory.

  • na

    All of this crap comes up because of Capitalism. In a world without profit and greed, you wouldn’t need such a farce as copyright. So much of what we have today as laws are really just in place to maintain the status quo and keep the money people in money. Get rid of money, and you get rid of all the bloodsucker idiots that only care about lining their own pockets.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gear-Mentation/100003097514663 Gear Mentation

      Along with civilization.

    • BuddhaFacePalmed

      Can’t. Money is merely the medium, the symptom, not the cause. The true cause are people with too much power on their hands and too little things to do want to ensure it stays that way for eternity.

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      No, as BuddhaFacePalmed has it, money is nothing. An intermediary at most. A carrier of safety and power at most.

      Now send us 500 years down the road we may have technology which allows for a star-trek-esque paradigm where everyone’s needs are catered to by default with no one having to lift a finger. At that point currency becomes convenience only.

      It’s been said that socialism is a perfect system and in theory it may be. In practice however, finding the nietszchean supermen to populate this system with is impossible. Greed and ambition are inherent qualities of humankind and that being the case, any system denying their existence is doomed to fail.

      Copyright is another example of such a system denying the basic need to spread information anyone deemed interesting. And similarly doomed to failure.

      What causes “this crap” to come up is that a number of people made a killing out of peddling smoke and mirrors. Now that the game is up, they can all too easily envision their fat paychecks for sitting back and cashing in going away.

      And since every time they’ve seen this before all they had to do was go whine about it and get a new law or a new extension, they are now completely unprepared for what to do when someone actually starts saying “No”.

      SOPA, PIPA and ACTA shook the industry to it’s core and it’s telling Chris Dodd went as far as he did in publicly threatening congressmen who didn’t vote for this legislation with cutting their campaign funding.

      • bobmail

        “Copyright is another example of such a system denying the basic need to spread information anyone deemed interesting. And similarly doomed to failure.”

        BULLSHIT, plain and simple.

        Do you honestly think that the majority of copyright stuff isn’t being distributed, isn’t available? The very nature of the system works against that, the money, recognition, the glamour, whatever it is that you go for is in actually getting it to people. The devil is in the details, making enough money to afford to do it all again, and maybe a couple of times over.

        Copyright just doesn’t deny any basic need, except perhaps you greed at needing something RIGHT NOW, and not being able to wait patiently for a few minutes.

        • MadAsASnake

          Ok, I’ll do a deal keep all the marketing crap off my computer, of my TV, and out of my face and I won’t buy it. Give us that opt out to that ton of junk.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Copyright just doesn’t deny any basic need,…”

          Let’s add “biology”, “evolutionary science”, and “psychology” to the exponentially growing folder of things of which you lack the most basic of knowledge, then.

          The urge by people to spread and show what they found interesting is an actual survival trait. It’s at the end the entire origin as to why the storyteller could survive as a profession.

          Today, just to name one example, it’s why the guy who invented “Icanhazcheeseburger” suddenly had to employ dozens of full-time employees doing nothing but sorting out the stuff sent in freely by viewers.

          And how instagram can even work.

          And that means there’s a biological imperative to disseminate any such information as you find interesting as soon as conveniently possible.

          What you are fighting is, like the silver ring thing a fundamental urge the vast majority of people were born with. Relying on the entire population suddenly learning to deny such basic urges. Or like teaching the entire citizenry to not spread good gossip about people they don’t care about.

          “…except perhaps you greed at needing something RIGHT NOW, and not being able to wait patiently for a few minutes.”

          You mean like after hearing the hype, having to wait a month or even a frigging year before it’s even available in your region? If ever. More than just a few minutes.

          And even so, that’s why I called this need “basic”. The urge to hear, see, listen and share will be fulfilled as soon as possible. It always has.

          Your problem is only one: Modern technology now makes this process both faster and easier.

        • http://gene-poole.tumblr.com Gene Poole

          There’s an ebook floating around out there by US attorney Marvin Ammori called “On Internet Freedom” that I’d recommend. He’s one of the lawyers who was involved on Comcast v Bittorrent Inc, fought SOPA and PIPA and makes many of the arguments you’re commenting on. He makes the argument that the big conflict is really about the content industry fighting against the internet, as it’s a platform for User generated Content like Youtube and Facebook which essentially makes the content industry as useful as a third wheel on a unicycle.

          It’s a quick little book that you could fly through in 2 hours tops, and I highly recommend you peruse it if you haven’t already.

      • Beam me up Bobmail

        “Now send us 500 years down the road we may have technology which allows
        for a star-trek-esque paradigm where everyone’s needs are catered to by
        default with no one having to lift a finger.”

        Wow, if you thought that people were fat now, imagine how big people would get then.

        Oh, and fuck off Bobmail.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Rest assured, if we have the technology allowing us to abolish currency altogether, whether you are fat one day or a stripped-down bodybuilder the next will be entirely up to you.

          Full metabolic control is peanuts compared to the former leap.

      • http://gene-poole.tumblr.com Gene Poole

        star-trek-esque paradigm

        Star Trek will never come to be. Those replicators infringe imaginary rights to the things we can all have for free without hurting anyone, except that someone somewhere might think they have a right to profit from it. Evidence that Roddenberry was way too idealistic.

        Now if you’ll excuse me I’m off to make a mashup of a replicator scene with a copy of Avatar being created. Just cuz.

  • Fin

    A world without Copyright:

    Music – Audio tracks are promo’s not a product! Musicians make money by performances.

    Movies/Games – Build up a followship and funding through online media/events, use funding mechanisms such as kick starter so effectively the end customer commissions works. Add “donations”, sell physical media alongside other promotional items

    Books – If public money is used – Free, otherwise, as per movies/games.

    Artwork (images) – As per movies/games again

    For any real life service/job the end customer always effectively commissions the work. Sometimes companies mass produce for efficiency (i.e. plumbers are commissioned / supermarkets mass produce) But when a product loses value everyone else knows to move on. Why can’t some people get the hint that this is where we as a society are going.

  • Pingback: Falkvinge (Partido Pirata): "¿Por qué los talibanes del copyright se creen que pueden coger el trabajo de otro?" [ING]

  • cupidicus stuntitcus

    having just worked out how much in copywrong fees i owe(EDF electricity/bill gates/the postman-person/toshiba/daniel craig/ben dover/intel/nvidia/that bloke who died of cancer from eating apples/loxley aerosol/bic/that guy who invented sandisk/mcfuckafee/kasfuckersperky/birkenstock and te-fuckin-fal) to write this ………..i don’t know , i really cannot count beyond quillions, so, we’re all fucked and bankrupt, hey, we really are, oh, that’s why the worlds in deep shit

    • MadAsASnake

      not to mention how much you owe yo thw descendeds of the chap that inventes the wheel

  • Dia

    “It is true that the ease of my labor depends on many people having worked on other things before me.”

    No. You built it.

  • anonymous

    isn’t it strange, but typical how the ‘share everything with everyone’ comes into play when it’s the entertainment industries and big companies like Apple that want and do take everything for free from whoever they like, then stating they dont understand what all the fuss is about, but when it’s others trying to share their stuff, it’s the biggest crime since the assassination of MLK or Kennedy! anyone care to give a rational explanation, please, apart from the usual ‘selfish bastards’ one?

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      There is mopney in it.

      Also, having the position of gatekeeper gives you the post of High Priest. Which of course means power.

      So what you are looking for in the form of rational explanation is this: ‘If we swing this for just one more year, I get to cash in one more massive spot bonus’.

      This is what goes through the heads of the Hollywood execs.

      ‘Unless we swing this for one more year, next year I’ll be looking for a new job’ is what passes through the heads of the MPAA/RIAA lawyers.

  • Falkvingeisanidiot

    It’s called “licensing” – if you are going to pretend like you are some kind of “expect” on economics – then at least do 5 minutes of research.

    Too bad these discussions are almost always filled with dumbasses who spout, rather than inform.

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      And here we have the compulsory falkvinge-stalking not-so-random nickname who once again fails to make any other point than with a random slur.

      It’s odd on how many forums we can see this big fan of rick’s. Saying much the same everytime but refusing to engage in any form of actual refutal.

    • Falkvingeisanidiotisaprick

      It’s called ‘stealing from the shared culture’. If you are going to pretend like you are some kind of ‘expect’ [SIC] on society – then at least do 5 minutes of living in the real world amongst actual humans.

      Too bad these trolls are almost always dumbasses who spout rather than back up anything they say.

      • Scary_Devil_Monastery

        “Too bad”?

        No, see, the problem with those trolls is that invectives and false information is all they have and can ever come up with.

        Copyright literally can not be defended without moving the goal posts or fast talking from a false assumption.

  • baronluigi

    The fact is that what they sell to us aer just limited viewing licenses with no control over them. Ironically, they do not specify that to us at the time we buy it (because they now that if people knew what they are really buying, no one would do that)

    • MadAsASnake

      And as most reasonable people simply ignore the sillyness, we end up with “piracy”

    • joexxx

      The license’s value is propped up by a legislative monopoly instituted by a corrupt government. Otherwise it has no value.

  • dog75

    i disagree which pains me because i think patent trolls are damaging the internet but, the maker of a song or movie shouldnt have to compete with you and lose profit because of your actions simply because you bought a copy of their work. the more copies you distribute, the less potential sales they can make. its not like buying a physical item, its more like an idea that loses potency (potential revenue) with dissemination.

    • MadAsASnake

      And just how would you propose stopping it. It is pretty clear that copyright law today doesn’t work for anyone.

    • joexxx

      Nobody has any rights to potential sale.
      The song or a movie is live performance or experience. You can’t copy it because you can’t copy the artist or actual experience. That’s where the unique value is.
      Anything else is a copy and the one you buy from the artist isn’t any different than the one from anybody else as far as artistic value is concerned. Remember, you not selling art. You’re selling a copy.

  • Goodbyenoway

    This is the most concise – and perfect — explanation of the immorality of the current copyright system. Bravo!

  • Mayor McCheese

    I realize that it’s unpopular to post a comment that isn’t a full-throated support of undermining copyright law, but this Op-Ed is full of hyperbole that does nothing to advance serious calls for copyright reform. Case in point:

    “When I manufacture another copy of The Avengers using my own property and my own labor, copyright monopolists somehow believe they have a right to the fruits of my labor. I find that idea offensive and insulting.”

    Like many laws that attempt to strike a balance between competing rights of a variety of stakeholders, copyright would benefit from periodic reconsideration to ensure that the result is consistent with the intended effect. Having said that, statements that amount to little more than sophistry do nothing but entrench existing positions, polarize the debate, and insult the intelligence of reasonable people on both sides of the discussion.

    Realistically, the content industry isn’t focused on Rick Falkvinge or anyone else reading or blogging about these issues who would simply like to make “backup” copies of their movies/music/video games/etc. to protect against loss of their original copies due to fire/theft/computer failure/etc., remix them, or engage in any activities that are currently protected as “fair use.” The real risk to these industries is that during the last 20+ years, technology has allowed/forced them (depending on your perspective) to offer higher and higher quality versions of their products in ever more consumer friendly formats which can be reproduced and distributed flawlessly, quickly and cheaply by people with a very basic understanding of technology. It is individuals who choose to use these technological advances to make hundreds/thousands of copies and distribute them at a massive discount (undermining the traditional/”legitimate” market for these products) who are a focus of their concerns because their actions put the economic viability of these industries (and those who depend on them) at risk.

    Setting aside the artistic merit/quality of mass marketed movies/music/video games/software, it is clear that a significant number of consumers are willing to pay for these products. Even those who don’t want to pay full retail price are willing to participate in legitimate (Spotify, Netflix) and illegitimate (buying cam’ed movies on the subway, downloading from P2P/1-click hosts), alternative distribution models so that they, too, can consume these products. Although Rick’s “monopoly” argument might have contained kernels of truth 20 years ago, modern consumers who don’t want to use products that are protected by copyright and/or distributed pursuant to a restrictive license have ample alternatives. There are plenty of people/companies producing very high quality open source software. Many people are now distributing photos and other content under Creative Commons licenses, and others simply give their content/services away for free and without any license in an effort to develop an audience. Having said that, I would wager that those who don’t consume ANY copyright-protected products are members of an infinitesimally small (but proud) minority. To the extent that these individuals are concerned about the inequities of copyright law, I would respectfully suggest – because they have no real stake in the outcome – that their energy might be better spent focusing on more glaring examples of laws that fail to protect other fundamental rights (ex: allowing sex trafficking, prohibiting same-sex marriage, enforcing arbitrary voting eligibility requirements, etc.). For those who have a “dog in the fight,” it would be much more productive if we could elevate the discourse and consider the practical impact of ideas proposed rather than rely on outdated or just plain inaccurate analogies when making points.

    If consumers continue to demand convenient ways to access high quality copies of these goods/services (and history suggests that they will), the content industries will respond to that demand by delivering products/services in new formats while endeavoring to strike a balance between making those products accessible and preventing consumers from making “unreasonable” use of copies. While their efforts may come slowly and may not be successful at first, it is understandable that they would attempt to place some limitations on copying because there is no way for them to know if a purchaser is going to make only “legitimate” uses of copies, or hundreds of thousands of copies to sell online for $3 USD each. Ultimately, market forces (including consumer demand) will help to ensure that accessibility will trump “product security,” because content is most profitable when it is easily accessed by the largest possible market (which includes both sophisticated and unsophisticated consumers) at a price that will allow the original producer both profit and continue improving and making new products.

    So back to Rick’s comment. If the purpose of copyright (at least within the US system) is to “promote progress of science and the useful arts,” the key question is, “Do existing laws successfully accomplish those goals, and if not, how should they be improved in a way that strikes the right balance?” Although I think most consumers and content producers would support an intellectually honest debate re: the existing system’s flaws and possible alternative ways of BALANCING the rights of consumers and producers, no serious person would argue that allowing anyone who can execute a “copy file” command to make and distribute copies at their sole discretion is the best way to promote the “useful arts.”

    Likewise, no one who wants to have a serious discussion about the merits/flaws of the current copyright system would pretend that the de minimus effort required to click “copy” and “paste” on a computer they’ve purchased for a few hundred dollars is “labor.” Saving up to purchase a piece of hardware and acquiring the skills required to operate it in a rudimentary way is not “labor” in the same vein as the investment in time, money, experience, and education that movie producers, recording artists, video game and software developers and others put into producing the products and services that they are offering to the public.

    This is one of the many reasons why intellectual property is treated differently than physical property. If you buy a chair, you’re allowed to do whatever I want with the chair, including reverse engineer it and sell copies to your friends and neighbors, but copyright laws prohibit you from doing the same with a DVD. While some, including Rick, would view this as “unfair,” the “labor” involved in each and the potential impact each type of copying/distribution could have on the market for the original producer’s products suggests that the opposite outcome would be more unfair. Only a small subset of the global population has sufficient access to the raw materials, tools, knowledge, and the aptitude required to reverse engineer an IKEA chair and make a perfect copy in their home. Even those with the requisite skills and materials can only make a limited number of the replica chairs, and must keep the cost of time and materials in mind when setting a price for their copies in order to break even or profit. As a result of those resource specific “pressures,” the furniture building hobbiest is unlikely to disrupt the market for goods produced by the original manufacturer. Conversely, copying and reselling movies and other digital content takes fractions of a second, and virtually anyone with a computer, a disk burner, an Internet connection, and a stack of recordable disks can cheaply produce a virtually unlimited number of perfect copies in a very short amount of time from the comfort of their living room…which could significantly impact the market for the original producer’s products/services.

    Again, I’m not saying the current model is perfect, just that there are reasonable points being made and serious issues to consider on both sides of the debate. Everyone involved would be better served by refraining from making specious arguments and focusing instead on reasonable ideas that give due respect to the perspectives of consumers AND the writers, artists, producers, and coders who make the products/services we consume.

    • Liam JH

      Those are all fair comments, but the copyright system is being used to prop up old business models used by multi national corporations. They are threatening their customers privacy by lobbying (buying) politicians to enact laws that serve no purpose other than to stifle freedoms. No one suggests that artists do not deserve fair recompense, and the majority of profit belongs with the artist/creators.

      Distribution of legal digital content is almost negligible in cost, but still only passes on a maximum of 8% to the artist (if anything at all in some cases). The price of a physical disc is around £8.00 for 10 tracks (average), the same price for 10 individual tracks on iTunes is 10 x 79p or £7.99. I see a scam here.

      • MadAsASnake

        it is not actually true for recorded music. CDs are not as good as vynil and mp3s are very not as good as CDs. The primaty reason forvthis is that that industry refused to rise to the challenge. While they may have killed Napster, iTunes and the iPod were a whole other story. The industry most definitely has not stepped up and promited a real hi fidelity audio format.

    • MadAsASnake

      I’m sorry, the internet has been around for decades. The music industry lost that battle to Apple, and the movie industry is only just now starting to make use of the bandwidth that “piracy” has been soking up all that time. These industries are not innovaters – they have entered the 21st century kicking and screaming like spoilt brats, and only do so now because it is obvious they will loose. Stuffing unworkable laws that have been drafted in privacy in backrooms through back channels is not the way to “discuss” copyright. Death + 70 years is nuts, and hey, most of us don’t want it. The thing you miss here is that all the SOPAs in the world won’t make a difference because many of us recognuse them as the illegitimate bastads that they are. I suspect the movie industry is close to loosing any chance of putting this right. People like Chris Dodd are not the ones to do that. I for one would welcome an intelligent discussion on copyright reform – but just follow the arguments from those such as bobmail and SoundnouS. They are intransigent. The internet allows us in this case to simply walk around the idiocy, and more people are doing that because these industries are not engaged. The market is no longer controlled by plastic discs.

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      That wordwall makes a few reasonable-sounding comments but the basic premise is false.

      You see, copyright enforcement can not exist in any paradigm where free speech is also allowed to. The internet, you see, like any other medium of communication, can not determine whether what two people exchanged in private was legitimate or not without EVERYONE being listened to.

      And regarding what the content industry does or does not do…during ACTA they had the temerity to try to make me PAY in order for MY OWN ISP to watch and monitor my communication.

      I don’t care what reasons they had. An industry whose model necessitates any attempt – or tries to justify any attempt – on civil right merits only a bullet and a six foot long hole in the ground as a final resting place.

      You do not forgive the would-be slave owner, even if he assures you it’s just a “temporary measure” to protect his business.
      And you do not forgive or allow the copyright industry EVEN ONE INCH when what they have done – repeatedly – is to attempt to abolish the rights of privacy, common jurisprudence, and free speech.

  • sabacat

    They never learn… history just repeats itself over and over … Copyright and patents are the cowardly weapons of choice for greedy elitists who are scared of the fresh new innovative upstarts! … Young Henry Ford was just trying to get his affordable automobiles out to the masses when ALAM tried to sue him because they owned the 1895 Selden patent, which they claimed covered ALL gasoline powered vehicles.-Any one producing them would have to pay them royalties. If they won the suit, Ford would not be able to continue to sell his cars at prices the ‘common’ people could afford… and that had been his goal… his dream. Fortunately for him (and us) the judges agreed with Ford and ruled against ALAM, and Ford’s assembly line revolutionized manufacturing and his company went on to produce a zillion cars and trucks!(exaggeration-I think :P) The MAFIAA could learn a little something from the past… but they don’t seem very bright.

    • http://twitter.com/Falkvinge Falkvinge

      This is an interesting story I’d like to retell. Do you have a link to more details?

    • ktetch

      “and Ford’s assembly line revolutionized manufacturing”

      Except it didn’t, because others had done it before, like Colt. Hell, Oldsmobile even did it with cars years before Ford did, patenting it in 1901.

      The very first assembly line was an automated flour mill in 1785 (long before Ford’s 1913 model T assembly line) and there was an assembly l(or rather a DISassembly) line system used in the Chicago meatpacker district in the 1860s.

      The ‘ford invented assembly lines’ thing is one of those myths that persist about cars (along with the ‘chevy nova failed in mexico because it meant ‘no go’ one) despite having zero basis in fact.

      Anyway, back on topic.

      The Selden patent was not just for gasoline vehicles , it was for all (since it covered not just the engine, but its use in a 4-wheeled vehicle) – an early example of patent overreach. Also amusing to note is that the witness was later to be best known for a company that was recent left as nothing but a patent portfolio – Kodak.

      There’s more here Rick http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_B._Selden#The_Selden_patent and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Licensed_Automobile_Manufacturers

      Oh, and Ford lost at first, but won on appeal. The appeal ruling was not contested.

      • sabacat

        I didn’t mean to give the impression he ~invented~ the assembly line… I guess that belongs to whoever “patented” it. But he did it right. During that time in history during which there were no work regulations, and the working conditions for many were deplorable, his employees saw a normal work day and a five day work week. He also paid his employees very well. His high efficiency set a standard that started a trickle down effect.

        question…

        How exactly do you ‘patent’ or own an assembly line? Wouldn’t that be like trying to patent making coffee or a cake or something equally ridiculous? It’s not tangible, and anyone can do it…no one can or should own it.

        Here’s a link with some info about the battle with ALAM…:
        http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/how-henry-ford-zapped-a-licensing-monopoly#axzz2K92UXZue

  • beer with everything

    “”Why Do Copyright Monopolists Think They Can Just Take Somebody Else’s Work?”"
    i’ll tell you why, because, frankly, we don’t give a shit

  • Pelham123

    “Their ownership of the shiny thing, and their right to profit, ends the second the item is sold to somebody.”

    I agree with this article 99 percent but I want to throw a small couple of flags here … and I know Boob and the other trolls will confuse and distort the issue out their usual ignorance, so here I go.

    First of all, don’t confuse a philosophical right to profit, which a producer can claim and argue for a given case, with a legal and moral right to profit, which does not exist. David Lowery and Boob types make this mistake a lot — don’t make it the other way. In other words, a waitress has no right to demand a tip, but she does have the right to argue that you should have tipped.

    Two, ownership ends the second an item is sold, and that must be respected over all. But you still can’t make and sell counterfeits or infringe on patents. Making personal copies with the consent of the file owner does not do either and is 100 percent morally right – we agree on that.

    • joexxx

      Patents are useless and only impede progress. There is not a single real life example where the lack of patents alone has impeded human progress.

  • Unsure

    Hmm, although I don’t entirely disagree, I’m not sure I agree entirely either.

  • http://twitter.com/utilitron Erik Ashcraft

    “An entrepreneur can sell one or both of two things: you can sell products, and you can sell services.”

    That is not all, you can also rent or lease items (or in the case of software: licence).

    The output of your work being a copy could be seen the same as how patents protect other works. You would run into the same issues if you tried to duplicate Dyson Vacuum and sell it.

    Now you CAN make your own vacuum, just like you can make your own movie. But just because you put the labor of building something doesn’t grant you the right to sell it if it was done by duplicating someone else’s work.

    This will become a bigger debate as 3D printers become more mainstream.

    • joexxx

      Hmm… why not? You’re the one that made the copy.

    • BuddhaFacePalmed

      But then you would run into a very major issue; Every invention ever made was done by innovating on prior works, which couldn’t be done without the work of others.

      The very definition of innovation is to improve on previous ideas. By restricting access to prior works using patents and copyrights, you are stifling progress itself.

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      “The output of your work being a copy could be seen the same as how patents protect other works. You would run into the same issues if you tried to duplicate Dyson Vacuum and sell it.”

      Except it isn’t. How patents work are simple. I’m perfectly free to manufacture – for my own use or to give away – whatever I want. Patents won’t say a word. Copyright, however, most certainly will.

      As far as selling…why not? Brand is what really matters as anyone who sells any physical object with a name will tell you.

  • Baz

    how about this? ‘Dreams.Awake’ is a good film, a friend who had seen it told me. At $24 delivered to the UK from the States, cheap enough. So, he and I and another put in $8 each. We all watch the film, together, separately and on numerous occasions. One of us keeps the film for even more future viewing, with other friends. Yes, we’ve got a film. Yes we’re all watching it (until the disk is worn out). Where’s the copyright law? It only works when we need to possess stuff.

    • Baz

      ps. on another tack: what about all those disks i used to own, that have worn out? Is there a lifetime guarantee for the media, could i insist the producers replace my copy like for like? Does the 1 legal copy for protection of the original copy still hold? Am i breaking their law if i lend the copy of the copy to a friend?

  • Guest

    That’s not the only “funny detail” in their speech. The worst part is that justify everything they claim or do based on two opposing basis:
    - Sometimes they speak about “licensed products”, on which they have rights and only allow us right to read/listen/watch. In which case, as you state, they abuse a very strange and exceptional right in a “normal economy”.
    - Sometimes, they talk about “copy economics”, where duplicating things even for your own usage (read on multiple devices, archiving, …) is a prejudice to them. We should have bought a copy the same “product” (which, in the “licence” speech, would mean buying the exact same one you already have, not a “copy” of it) for each and every use we want to make of it. Oh wait, that’s still an abuse compared to “normal economics”.

    In the first case, they own what we bought and we basically bought nothing, just rented it for an undetermined amount of time.
    In the second case, we own nothing but a very limited-use sample of “their property” and we should pay them damages for everything use of it.

    That only works in their minds though: once something as abstract as “art” is released, people can, and always have made it “theirs” in numerous ways. And “copying” is just one of those.

  • Caspin

    How about a happy medium, where we allow fines to be distributed only when the file being shared is of a film that ends up bombing. That way we kill two birds with one stone: the people who could have made money on their film get paid, and the people who watch shitty films will stop watching shitty films.

  • dick falkminge

    I think it is really sad that Rick FalkMINGE has to make provocative statements like ‘

    Why Do Copyright Monopolists Think They Can Just Take Somebody Else’s Work?’

    just to try and bolster up his lame existance and get some kind of attention….little fat faced attenion whore. By the way you look like a stupid, middle aged fat, pug faced cunt with that eye patch on

    • Guest

      your name says a lot about you already, stop it

      • Scary_Devil_Monastery

        Yea, Rick has a rather persistent stalker with a real hard-on for hating. And he always keeps posting under bastardized versions of rick’s name.

        I suspect he’s a swede since I first encountered that phenomenon on Ricks blog.

        He’s an amusing little piss artist. Always just two or three sentences of all bile, no fact or substance.

    • Goodbyenoway

      So mature. Are you Chris Dodd?

    • ThumbsUpThumbsDown

      Can’t understand why these kind of abusive ad hominum postings have to be tolerated. If this is the standard of responsible or intelligent comment, most of us are better off at the dentist getting cavities filled….

      • joexxx

        Because part of being an adult is tolerating things that you don’t agree with. You’ll understand this when you grow up.

        • ScrewEwe2

          Looks like Bob’s starting to rub off on you Joe with this growing up attitude.

      • Scary_Devil_Monastery

        Simply because they do us more favor being seen by everyone than that we deny the trolls that specific use of a petard and a rope to which they customarily use such machinery.

        A troll only knows how to use speech in one particular way. He hangs himself with it. That’s why not sorting such comments out is a good thing.

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  • Sturmabteilung

    Capitalist scumbag needs to learn Capitalism. Free Market he says. Foundation of our economy he says. Controlling fruits of labor antithetical to market he says. Forgets employers taking and controlling the fruits of labor of their workers. Pro.

  • joexxx

    All copyright does is inflate the price of something (copying) that has, really, no or little value. It’s a classic definition of a bubble – make value out of something that has no value. Bubbles enrich some people, but are detrimental to human culture and progress.

  • http://obbop.wordpress.com/ obbop

    Whatever organization can offer the most and best paying jobs and speaking fees to politicians and bureaucrats leaving their “public service” position will receive the best protection regarding anything economic.

  • James

    I have a book that I published 10 years ago. The copyright of it is in the hands of a company who acquired the company that acquired the company that published it and while I am proud of my work I am completely alienated from the book. If there was a way to distribute it by PDF for free without getting sued for breach of copyright I would. Cultural capital in the west has obfuscated the distinctions between intellectual property and copyright making the latter indistinguishable from the former and like all forms of production the resulting product effaced the labor involved in its production and I as the worker am supposed to view my intrrests as being protected by those who profit from it.

    • adnivara

      The intellectual property to write the book is a commodity which can be traded. Yes you wrote the book, but the intellectual property is not yours anymore as you traded it away to the publisher. You made a bad deal, so you have only yourself to blame for not protecting your interests.

  • Darrow13

    If this is the best all of you ‘Pirates’ have as intellectual/moral/legal backing for your positions, you’re all (rightfully, to my mind) going to end up in prison. Mr. Falkvinge’s argument is entirely dependent on pretending that the concept of intellectual property simply doesn’t, and can’t, exist. The world disagrees.

    Try this as a simple thought experiment:

    I write a book.

    I make copies of the book. I sell you a set of rights. Those rights are:

    - You may read my book.

    - You may use small excerpts from my book in academic works or commentary (‘Fair Use’).

    - If I have distributed my book to you as a printed book, you may give that printed book to another individual, and they, too, may read my book. You may not copy or distribute it in any other fashion.

    - If I have distributed my book to you in digital form, I do not grant you the right to redistribute it in any way.

    You have no obligation to accept my terms – but if you want my book, that’s the only way you can have it. It’s mine, I created it, all rights in it belong to me – if you want it from me, you can have it on my terms, or not at all.

    Now explain to me how, having purchased a copy of my book, you now have the right to make copies of it for whomever you please?

    That’s the basic position of all copyright holders – for books, music, video, software – whatever. The fact that you possess a physical copy of my book, or that you ‘bought it and now it’s yours to do with as you please’ is meaningless. Unless you are arguing that the entire concept of intellectual property just doesn’t exist, what you are purchasing is a certain, specific set of rights to my property. You can’t buy unlimited rights to use my intellectual property – because those rights simply are not for sale. If you agree to buy the rights I am offering, then choose to make of my property beyond the rights I’ve sold you – - that’s theft.

    Why is this in any way hard to understand?

    • http://twitter.com/Falkvinge Falkvinge

      I have to respond with a concise explanation:

      When you are selling me one of the copies of that book, you are not selling me “a set of rights”, including “the right to read the book”. You are selling me that copy of the book, period.

      The idea that you can sell something and still own it (pretending to only having sold “usage rights”) simply doesn’t exist in law or in practice – nor in morals.

      Cheers,
      Rick

      • adnivara

        That’s a good post by Darrow. Yes, you only bought a copy of the book, not the copyright. That copy of the book is yours to read, use, sell, deface, dispose etc as you own it. You didn’t buy the right to copy it. Oh, you’re saying that that wasn’t mentioned when you bought the book, and you assumed it included it? No, it is taken for granted you have been informed as all these things about Copyright is in the law.

        • http://twitter.com/Falkvinge Falkvinge

          You don’t need to “buy a right to copy” something which is your property. It goes with being your property that you have a moral right to copy it or do anything else with it.

          To _remove_ this right, it must be explicitly taken from your normal property rights, and the copyright monopoly does that. That’s also why it is immoral.

          Cheers,
          Rick

        • SoundnuoS

          What you’re choosing to ignore is that copyright is part of the deal when you buy a record. Copyright can be sold, but does not have to be.

          Every kind of property is in reality a set of rights, not all of which have to be transferred at the moment of sale.
          The IKEA chair is sold with pretty much all the rights, except the right to manufacture more chairs and sell or give them away as IKEA chairs. They reserve that one.

          Here’s an example of reserving rights when it comes to something as oldfashioned as owning land.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_rights
          You can sell the land while keeping the rights to any minerals in it.
          And as a swede you should be aware of “allemansrätten”. Even if you own a bit of forest you have no right to stop people from walking in it or gathering berries and mushrooms.
          This is a limitation of your rights as an owner but that limitation is part of the ruleset that goes along with buying land in Sweden, just as copyright is part of the ruleset that goes along with buying a record

      • Darrow13

        Rick, I appreciate the reply, but it doesn’t hold up. Your arguments seem to amount to ‘No it’s not because I said so.’

        When you buy a book, or any intellectual property, you do, indeed buy only a set of rights in that property. To suggest that that concept doesn’t exist in law is asinine – intellectual property law, and copyright in particular, has existed for hundreds of years and is a globally recognized area of jurisprudence.

        How is the seller of a book ‘pretending’ to sell usage rights? That’s what they’re selling. Period. That you and other ‘pirates’ claim “You sold me a book! It’s mine to do with as I wish!” does not change national and international law – it merely ignores the law or pretends it doesn’t exist. There are many areas where intellectual property law is still evolving, but this is not one of them – when you buy a copy of an intellectual work, you are not buying the right to make additional copies of that work. This is settled law, and has been for upwards of 300 years.

        Meanwhile, your ‘moral’ outrage is frankly absurd. Should we be concerned about the labor and property used by a thief in robbing a house? In forging a counterfeit bill? You are using your own property and labor – to break the law, and to violate the rights of a property holder. The copyright holder has rights both at law and at equity to demand damages and to stop you from violating their copyright, respectively. Again, this is settled law, established over hundreds of years. There is no ‘new’ legal theory required to deal with Internet variations on this crime – it’s legally just the same as making physical copies of a book and distributing them.

        As a global society and economy, we have decided, over the course of centuries, to protect copyright holders’ interests in intellectual property. You can disagree with that, you can work to change the law locally and internationally – but you can’t just decide on your own that intellectual property law doesn’t exist, doesn’t apply to you or is somehow void for being outside your moral code.

        • http://twitter.com/Falkvinge Falkvinge

          Hi Darrow,

          Unfortunately, your assertions of what the law looks like are not true.

          You are asserting that when you buy a book, you are buying a set of rights that include the right to read the book, but not the right to copy it. That is simply not true.

          Rather, the way the law works is that you are buying the book, the whole book, and nothing but the book. It becomes your property. Then, another law – the copyright monopoly – steps in and limits what you can do with this property. In the United States, the copyright monopoly law lists six specific actions you cannot take on the book.

          The difference here is crucial. It is not that you bought a set of rights that did not include copying – it is that you bought the property, which includes the right to do anything to and with the property, and then another law takes certain rights away from your property rights.

          You do not violate the rights of the property holder when you make a copy of a book, as you suggest, for the property holder is you. This distinction is crucial. However, you are violating a monopoly of the copyright monopoly holder. I assert that this monopoly is unjust, out of touch with the time, and violates property rights (which is its legal definition, so that’s no stretch).

          As for your assertions that these laws have been around for X years – yes, no, and maybe. The rights mostly called into question, the so-called “neighboring rights”, have been around since 1961.

          Cheers,
          Rick

      • Darrow13

        Rick, I appreciate the reply, but it doesn’t hold up. Your arguments seem to amount to ‘No it’s not because I said so.’

        When you buy a book, or any intellectual property, you do, indeed buy only a set of rights in that property. To suggest that that concept doesn’t exist in law is asinine – intellectual property law, and copyright in particular, has existed for hundreds of years and is a globally recognized area of jurisprudence.

        How is the seller of a book ‘pretending’ to sell usage rights? That’s what they’re selling. Period. That you and other ‘pirates’ claim “You sold me a book! It’s mine to do with as I wish!” does not change national and international law – it merely ignores the law or pretends it doesn’t exist. There are many areas where intellectual property law is still evolving, but this is not one of them – when you buy a copy of an intellectual work, you are not buying the right to make additional copies of that work. This is settled law, and has been for upwards of 300 years.

        Meanwhile, your ‘moral’ outrage is frankly absurd. Should we be concerned about the labor and property used by a thief in robbing a house? In forging a counterfeit bill? You are using your own property and labor – to break the law, and to violate the rights of a property holder. The copyright holder has rights both at law and at equity to demand damages and to stop you from violating their copyright, respectively. Again, this is settled law, established over hundreds of years. There is no ‘new’ legal theory required to deal with Internet variations on this crime – it’s legally just the same as making physical copies of a book and distributing them.

        As a global society and economy, we have decided, over the course of centuries, to protect copyright holders’ interests in intellectual property. You can disagree with that, you can work to change the law locally and internationally – but you can’t just decide on your own that intellectual property law doesn’t exist, doesn’t apply to you or is somehow void for being outside your moral code.

  • Pingback: Why Do Copyright Monopolists Think They Can Just Take Somebody Else’s Work? | SafetyFist.com

  • http://twitter.com/DavidJFulde David Fulde

    So, by this logic; Can you copy a 5$ bill since they are out in the public? Would it be wrong to arrest me for counterfeit since my labour went into the copy of the bill?

    • karl

      That’s exactly what the Federal reserve does, and it is apparently legal.

  • CloudMage

    this is my whole problem. we pay alot of money for a physical copy of a product. then were told how and damn near when we can use said product. you restrict us to witch devices we can use this product on. and when you put out a digital copy of the same product you want the same ammount of money. even though its got to be alot cheaper to setup a few decent servers (or rent space) to service a bunch of products vs putting out physical copys(witch lots of paper and junk half of us never look at twice).

    i guess what im saying is instead of droping millions of dollar on attacking the pirates. why dont you put out a GOOD copy for what it really reflects your costs of putting out said product and turn a fair profit. and let us consume our content the way we want to.

    i wonder if there was a cave man that fought the adaption of the wheel this hard

    • adnivara

      “why dont you put out a GOOD copy for what it really reflects your costs of putting out said product and turn a fair profit”

      The idea of any business is to sell things at a higher price than it cost. Its OK for them to try and sell things at the highest price possible. If you feel the price is too high, don’t agree to the deal. If you do make the deal, remember a condition of the deal is that you are not allowed to make copies of the product.

      • CloudMage

        i get that. but if physical copy costs 60$ im going to assume some of that is tied into putting out the physical copy and some for making the product ect.

        if its digital copy only with not physical. why am i still paying 60$ and if you think about it. im getting LESS for my money and also SAVING them money. so why not knock off the physical median added price? this is why i mostly buy indie games/local musician show ticket/cds these days. if its a big publisher and they want me to have they’re specific crap ass distribution software (looking at you EA/origin) then ill just pirate the copy so i dont have to deal with that. just wish there was a way i could give the developer my money and say screw the middle man.

        why cant they innovate around the new abilities we have these days though technology. instead of hinder progression

        • adnivara

          Lets say I’m the seller and I’m selling it to you face to face. I offer the physical copy for $60. I then also tell you I have the digital copy, and I am selling that for $60 too. At that point you would try to negotiate the price of the digital copy, citing the reason you mentioned above. I say take it or leave it.

          Then you also realise the digital copy comes with a whole host of trojans and viruses and adware. You ask if I have a copy of the product without those. I say we don’t have it for sale, if you want the product you’ll have to live with it.

          Miffed by my response, you go to the black market for options. You buy my product off someone who has stolen my work illegally, but innovated it to remove the trojans, viruses and adware.

          To me the selling/distribution of the product is illegal, but not the buying. Just like drugs. Using that logic, when I torrent a file, I am OK as long as I download only and not upload, I would just be the receiver but I won’t be the distributor. Dunno if that is logical or not haha.

  • Aerionix

    That article the most asinine thing I’ve seen/heard today. And I went to work in a 600 worker facility which specializes in idiocy. congratulations.

  • Fortuzero

    I don’t know why people make it so complicated. On either side.

    Government take what the fuck they like from you, but keep it just below the point where people are prepared to take up arms over it. That’s how it’s done.

    Also it’s bullshit to say that `if something is cheap/reasonably priced enough people will pay` – I don’t care how cheap XYZ film is – if I can get it for free then duh…. that’s what I’m going to do. Why the f*ck would I pay for something I can have for nothing? Altruism? WTF? Are you retarded? Are we all communists now? I personally don’t give a fuck if you get paid, any more than I expect you to give a fuck if I do.

    Sick of all the `PC` pirates out there – making out like there is some intellectual honesty behind it all. Bollocks. You can get something for free so you do. End of. Stop dressing it up. You want it, take it, or pay for it. Just do what you do and STFU.

    If there was a $100k car out on the street and I could take it and the chances of me being caught and/or punished for taking it was pretty much ZERO then that’s what I’d do – and so would most of you if you weren’t so full of shit. Or rather the only reason most of you wouldn’t is because you are too scared of getting caught and locked up.

    • http://twitter.com/Falkvinge Falkvinge

      They say that you judge others from yourself. Your assertion therefore tells a lot more about your character than it does about the society we live in.

      I was paying subscriber number 110 (one-hundred and ten) to Pandora, out of today’s twenty million, despite being able to get the same thing for free.

      So nope, it’s not about the money. It’s not about free. Never was.

      Want to try again?

      Cheers,
      Rick

  • Raheema Muhammad

    You cannot steal what a person gives freely. All I ask is that I get credit for the work involved in my personal craft.

    Simply remember I gave myself to you.

    I don’t mind you telling the world about my work and using it for your own purposes, so long as you remember the origin of the material.

    Copyrighting is a hassle for me, but I can understand the principle of it. I don’t particularly like it though, because in a way, it seems to brand people as thieves from the offset, and somehow narrows the world into a disgusting box.

    And it makes me feel mighty selfish to consider my work a product to be held onto with an iron fist.

    *sighs* Now I’m starting to go in circles. But really, it’s just a matter of trust.

    If you trust no one, then how’s anybody supposed to trust you?

    There’s enough material, products, and inspiration to go around. No need to steal a thing.

    And what do we really own anyhow? Everything is everything. We’re nothing but the sum and continuation of work of the past.

    I think we all need to loosen up a bit and learn to share without a contract.

  • brucelee

    I like stuff like bandcamp where you can get some songs for free or chose any amount to pay if you wish to support the artist.

  • http://twitter.com/craigc_uoit Craig Casey

    The fundamental idea of copyright is (or at least should be) that we incentivize new works by allowing the authors exclusive distribution rights for long enough to get their money back and hopefully make a nice profit.

    The perversion of this concept of copyright as something everybody agrees to and benefits from (not to mention that the imagery of the artisan as an entrepreneur is often misleading) has been so thorough and drawn-out that many or even most people really believe that an artist is entitled to permanent control over his or her work, which is flagrantly ignorant of human nature and the benefits we all reap from the free exchange of ideas. The unfortunate corollary of this problem is that the contrarian perspective (as offered in your article) is just as unworkable as the current system, but it’s definitely a good first step to tell them where they can stick their lobbying money and moralizing speeches.

  • Guest

    ‘Why do copyright monopolists think they can just take somebody else’s work’ – why do we think we can just take someone else work?! why on earth should music be free?

    you cannot describe the process of file sharing as labour, because it is nothing close to labour or in fact effort, people have taken time to make music and films and the like and file sharing them IS a kind of theft, liberal theft, but theft none the less, regardless of whether or not you think it is.

    This is not a statement to agree with the people that would enforce such things, file sharing is unstoppable, and it is ridiculous that the record industry pours away it’s money into ventures to stop it rather than say…. trying to capitalize on it. When radio came along and slashed the sheet music industry, the industry said ‘hey this is cool lets do this instead’ not ‘radio is costing us all jobs, kill it with fire’,

    The industry created digital music and it must now live with what we can do with it, and free is always good, but do not be disillusioned that it is a crime, we have no right to take these things for free, but we can, and no one can ever stop us.

  • sammie june

    Devil’s advocate question (since I want to agree with you). Aren’t they selling you the right to use the copyrighted materials with stipulations? While you may own the DVD it’s printed on, you only have the right to use the information for yourself. Don’t movies come with a contract that you agree to when you make the purchase? In essence, it’s almost like they’re allowing you to rent the actual movie by purchasing the DVD.

    If you rent a car, you can’t give it to someone else because it’s not yours to give. You can’t change it, paint it or take it apart. Well, you can, but you’d be financially liable.

    Conversely, why can an artist sell a painting and then have no further claim over it? If I buy the painting, I can paint over it, destroy it, take a photo of it and give it to others, etc. I guess technically I could not photograph it and sell those photographs.

    But a DVD or CD is not like that. I can’t buy it, make copies and give them out, because I only bought the material it’s printed on, not the content.

  • Probitas

    If created works were made easily available at reasonable prices, we wouldn’t have piracy. It’s the gouging that is unreasonable. Sure, making the original work is costly, but machine stamping out millions of copies is cheap as hell. And that profit is above the profit from the original screening. Gravy. And where is the need to attempt to make MORE money off DVD sales than the movie ticket price, home users are using their own equipment to show the work, why does the price have to 30 dollars or more?

    • Almana

      Err…all my friends have their iPhone jailbreaked and install 69c games for free. Is $0.69 really too much for 10 hours of play? I don’t know. I just see whats happening.

      Maybe thats the reason that more and more games require an Internet connection and simulate an arcade, where you have to put in .10 to continue playing. Weird.

      It seems that the market is reacting, and its getting worse on a daily basis.

  • Marius

    You can’t compare selling an object and selling digital information. If you could copy cars, the industry wouldnt afford making cars, now would they? So if you copy digital information, how can they afford to make that? it’s just a matter of what you can(with little cost and effort) copy. The problem like I see it is that the industry are afraid of change. Every time a new tecnology comes to the market, the industry goes against it. It was like that with the tape-recorder like it’s with the internet. The industry goes against it, trying to stop it from happening, rather than play ball and find a solution. I think you should have the right to do ass you please with what you buy. Now, I would not buy everything i download. So the estimat of what they say they lose is quite wrong. Annyhow, it would seem like they earn a hell of a lot on making movies despite “piracy”.

  • Pingback: Why Do Copyright Monopolists Think They Can Just Steal Somebody Else’s Work? - Soicalpost

  • Wag the Dog

    What utter rubbish. If each thing you sold remained ONE thing, then this would make sense. But someone COPYING each thing you sold a few million times, to the point where what you sell has no value left at all, this is a recipe for the destruction of the value of work. How people can ignore this point only illustrates the power of self delusion! Imagine a world where, no matter what you do for a living, it can be taken from you, replicated millions of times, and given away for free. How would you make a living?

    This is what rampant piracy is doing to all forms of internet distributed work. Books, movies, music, textbooks, newspapers, if it has a digital distribution method, it is pirated. Somehow, there are ‘children’ of all ages the world over that cannot see beyond their ‘I want it all and I want it for free’ attitudes, and cannot see the harm it does.

    Well, imagine, just for one tiny minute (go on, it won’t hurt) that YOU are in a business where whatever you do, some kid in a bedroom anywhere in the world can decide that YOU no longer deserve to make a living. You’ve worked hard all your life, spent a fortune making what you do, went into debt to manufacture it and distribute it.

    He will take what you do, and make it freely available to all on the planet. How do you feel about ‘freedom of speech’ now? Hungry? Can’t find a job? Got nowhere to live?

    Empathy. It’s the ability to see the world from a perspective other than your own short sighted needs (or to be more accurate, wants… little of this pirated content is anything anyone NEEDS). And it is sadly lacking from this debate. Along with common sense (how on earth this article can’t acknowledge even the existence of copying shows how desperate he is to side-step the issue).

  • Wag the Dog

    Remember… copying a CD or DVD isn’t duplicating the WORK that created it. YOUR involvement in copying the work is to press a couple of mouse clicks on your computer. If that’s all the original creator did, then yes, what you are doing is the same as him (or her). Write the book out (but make it your own by altering it), THEN distribute it? Maybe, although copyright laws have existed for hundreds of years to protect authors from this.

    But if you think for one minute that pressing ‘copy’ on your monitor entitles you to freely distribute something that took someone else months, if not years, to create, you are deluding yourself. The copyright owner did not sell you the right to MANUFACTURE his product. He sold you the right to USE it. And, with Fair Use laws around the world, if you should choose to sell your copy of the CD/DVD/ebook, whatever, so you no longer keep the work, that is allowed. But to sell it while you still keep the copy, or give it away, while you KEEP the copy…. Why do you all not see this glaring difference..?

  • Martin

    So technically there is no point in selling anything that can be copied more than once.

  • Pingback: Odds & Ends (It’s that kind of week) » The Illusion of More

  • CE Behr

    Rick is a bloody fool and his argument is as thin as toilet paper. Stealing another’s work is just that, stealing. BTW, my ratio on Demonoid was 6+, but I don’t have my head up my a**. I know what I’m doing, and I’m doing it. Fool. Fool. Fool.

  • robthom

    Its sickening to think about the fact that the Beatles dont own the rights to most of their music

  • http://vmxx.net/ Klāvs Pētersons

    Because they all are illuminati.

  • http://www.facebook.com/AnneCourtois09 Anne Courtois

    I wonder what he’d think if I’d go to his seminar and collect all the material and start to do my own seminar with his material. People like Falkvinge promote ideas that they would not support themselves if their livelyhood would be at risk. His ‘interpretation’ of copyrights is only there to support his ideas and does the same thing as Jamie in the Mythbusters: “I reject reality and substitue my own.”

  • Joshua Loving

    Quick question for the author – does this mean you don’t mind if someone copies the text of your article verbatim, or maybe even changes a few things here and there and reposts without a link? I’m not saying I’m in favor of current copyright laws (I’m not) I’m just curious.

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