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Is a Fair P2P Trial Possible?

There has been a lot of court cases in the last week or two involving P2P, but there is something to be pondered, “Is a fair trial even possible?” Given the disparity between the sides in these sorts of cases, the resources, and the history, is the result a foregone conclusion before it’s even started?

riaa scalesDavid and Goliath metaphors are often thrown around, as an example of the little guy fighting back, and nowhere is this more appropriate than in copyright litigation, especially those cases centering around p2p. On one side, you have the defendant, who often has no resources at all, and on the other, the multi-billion dollar entertainment industry. In such cases, the law should win out, but given such a drastic mismatch, is a fair trial even possible?

There are two main areas to look at, one is within a court case, the other is outside the courtroom, and away from specific cases in general. First we’ll look at inside the courtroom, and we’ll look at more general issues in part 2 of this article.

The litigation that takes place in cases such as this, is a far cry from those typified in LA Law or Boston Legal. In those shows, the lawyers are the heroes, and to have the stars of the show using the sort of tactics used in these cases would have viewers reaching for the remotes. As was covered last summer, the actual process is riddled with abusive practices, one of the key ones being that the first most defendants hear about it, is when they’ve effectively already been sued once (as a John Doe), and lost (because of ex parte discovery), and the industry lawyers are sending threatening letters directly to people, telling them to pay up or else. Of course, it’s not just in the US this happens, it’s happened a lot in the UK with Davenport Lyons and ACS:Law.

Now, we mentioned resources, and if you have not caved in to a demand to accept guilt and pay up, then resources are essential. As a defendant in a civil case, you have to defend yourself from accusations. If you don’t show up, you lose – this is apparently what happened with Ms. Barwinska. Now, they’re under no obligation to actually file a lawsuit, but can continue to threaten to do so pretty much until any applicable statute of limitations has expired, which can be years. In all that time they can continue to threaten, and so legal counsel might have to be retained, to respond, and failure to respond can be viewed negatively in some courts.

If it actually comes to a court case, then, it can get worse. Depositions, expert witnesses and paralegals for research all cost money, again money the plaintiff has, and the defendant often doesn’t. This was why the expert witness fund was set up and one reason the defense in the two Thomas trials were light on testimony. In the Tenenbaum case, defense expert witnesses were rejected, including Dr Johan Pouwelse, who has published on Kazaa and conducted the largest (2-years!) measurement of Bittorrent. He told TorrentFreak that it was “amazing how the plaintiffs in this case where allowed to let 3 record executives complain for hours and not let any professor take the stand in favour of Joel.”

Of course, at the end of the day it comes down to the jury. And often it ends up being down to how well an analogy can be made that describes the situation in a way that defines the lawyers position in the way that the jury can understand. The problem is any such analogy will be critically flawed, as it’s a technical issue, and anyone with knowledge of P2P systems, even as a user, tends to be rejected as a juror ‘for cause’. Thus the people left are generally technological novices, that believe the analogies to be accurate, or have an overestimation of the accuracy of the evidence (as seems to be a trend with ‘forensic evidence’ in cases these days). That’s how you have someone who has never used a computer saying they know someone’s lying about a technologically involved subject, as happened in the first Thomas case. Outside information (covered in part 2) only exacerbates that.

With all these things against a defendant, can there ever be a fair P2P trial?

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  • Anonymous

    you said it bro!

  • Anonymous

    Nope. Not until people with enough knowledge get into the system.

  • J

    As long as he law favours the rich it will never be fair.

    Even in civil cases there need to be a limit on how much can be used in the case, watch all the lawsuits end when they can not get the high priced lawyers to attend.

    OR make it so in civil cases there is a set limit to the legal costs you can reclaim, you can hire more expensive legal experts but its money you will not be able to get back.

    And when i mean a limit i do not mean life shattering either.

    There are a lot of things that need to be fixed with the law but as long as the people controlling the law are using it to there own advantage it will never change.

    -Jay

  • Pk_Myth0

    Good article :)

  • Anonymous

    currently no.

  • Anonymous

    not in my life time

  • Kawk

    Cool super bro story!

  • Anonymous

    Both sides are going to say it’s not fair if they lose because they believe that they are objectively right and if the judge or jury disagrees with them then there was a problem.

  • .NetRolller 3D

    To the author of the article: please read http://www.wsu.edu:8001/~brians/errors/center.html.

  • .NetRolller 3D
  • Sendaii

    Until the courts can bring in judges, jury, etc. that understand the technology and how inaccurate the claims of the entertainment industry sometimes are, no. A fair trial is where both sides are listened to, and a decision is made based on that and the evidence presented before the court. That currently doesn’t happen. Judges are paid off left and right and screenshots can be taken as evidence in some places (even though anyone with half a brain and a copy of Photoshop could alter it). This needs to stop.

  • eric

    the problem is capitalism.

  • anon

    The problem is money.

    Look up the Venus Project.

    Resource based society instead of money.

  • A Victim

    What a joke. Court after court, jury after jury says violating the rights of others is illegal. So, you question the very concept of trials.

    You have no interest in justice. You want to violate the rights of another class of people. So, like the Old South in the US that said the federal courts were corrupt when they brought lynchers to justice, you claim the courts are bad.

  • carnegie

    The problem with your argument is that in law, an understanding of P2P technology isn’t relevant. There is essentially only one thing that matters and that is ‘has there or has there not infringement or ‘loss’ incurred by the plaintiff due to the defendent’s ‘actions’ or lack of ‘action’ in some cases. New technology doesn’t have an effect on law. this is where the party grows cold. Whether or not you believe a technology to be ‘innovative, evolutionary, kick-arse fucking brilliant’ or not. It doesn’t matter. In court, it’s about damages. Just because something is brilliant doesn’t make it kosher. P2P has loads of advantages. But, the reality is that the people who create the content need to be covered here. It’s not just about big business and the plaintiff who has wads of cash. it’s about reality. A court hears a case about damages. If the technology that is so brilliant creates the significant damages, well, sorry, but the college student goes bankrupt. That’s how it works. P2p defenders need to dream up a plan to make it work without creating loss. That’s the real deal. That’s where the whole thing could make sense.

  • Anonymous

    The problem is money but not the way your putting it.

    Steal a $20 CD from a store and you might get 300 fine, if even that.

    Steal 20 MP3s online and you get charge $30,000 a song.

    Try and figure that one out.

  • kevin reid

    Well i never got a fair trial i ran a torrent site in 2005 got taken down mpaa idiots and threats of suing me 5million dollars.

    They went ahead withthe case in my absence i got fined 440k better than 5 mill

    I even spoke to the infamouse Matthew Oppenheim alll he said was settle yea hold on i get 5 mill out the bank

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/21/mpaa_reid_suit/

    http://news.zdnet.co.uk/itmanagement/0,1000000308,39191958,00.htm

    Ive paid them nothing and never will i would rather do the time as they think you do it for profit its a hobby

  • carnegie

    this is not a ‘money problem @eric @anon it’s a lack of gathering a community of P2p users and bringing them to focus. P2P could be the ultimate distribution platform if it could be channeled. Our good friend Ben here writes articles. He has points. he has complaints. The truth is though (if I may announce it) the honest truth is that if P2P could be honed into a device that compensates creators and also shares their work freely, how fair? This is the deal. It doesn’t matter whether you work under capitalism, nature, communism, any ‘ism’ humans, life, animals, everything works on a sort of ‘eco’ system. The bottom line is, we work on exchange. Be it the air you breath in and the Co2 you breathe out. This planet functions on exchange. AT the moment, P2p is functioning without the exchange element. Change that part of the ‘evolution’ and the technology could serve to maximize the free exchange of goods without a ‘loss’ or cost to the creators of the goods. pretty simple. It’s not like and ‘us against the machine’ scenario. It’s simple basic stuff. Now, Ben, write a blog about how that could work and you’ll solve a billion dollar industry nightmare and have a pedestal to hang your hat on in heaven.

  • lol

    I lolz at the hypocrites on here, nearly everyone that reads this stuff downloads illegal material, myself included. Yet you all complain about how unfair the law is. Is it fair that your neighbor went and spent money on a movie, or music cd? When you are sitting at home watching it, or listening to it for free? Explain the fairness there, if you can? Or are you saying that all movies and music and games should be free? What gives us the right to turn around and say the law is unfair when we sit at home and take things for free that other have to pay for? Oh and yeah people do have to pay for this stuff because if they didn’t, we wouldn’t have any to begin with. At the end of the day the law is fair in many ways, you just don’t see it because this is something against you. Stop complaining your taking for free giving nothing in return (bandwidth is hardly giving in return) so don’t cry when it comes up and bites you in the ass. I download if I ever get busted for it, it will be my own fault and I will get punished. Just the same as any other law breaker out there.

  • BadMoJo

    “United we stand, Divided we fall”
    We better learn to join forces or go down in flames one by one.

  • A Victim

    @kevin reid, so what was unfair? You stole and got fined. You should have gone to prison.

  • Joe

    what I don’t get is how BT site owners are dumb enough to leave enough evidence pointing to who they really are!

    Nowadays, you can buy prepaid mastercards from pretty much everywhere, order hosting online with cards, buy a domain name from the same place, give them a bogus address, get a vpn tunnel or some service to block your IP and voila, you can have a BT site all you want without leaving a shred of your identity.

    Worst thing that could happen is your site gets shut down by the hosting company, no one can find you! Now you can rest easy and wipe your ass with the dmca notices.

    I’d never start a piracy-related site without making damn sure no one will be able to know who I am.

  • sk

    it can’t been afair because there are a lot of money in this “game”

  • carnegie

    @joe the whole thing isn’t about being ‘anonymous’ though is it? The contraversy would never reach this level with ‘anon’ as the main character. Here the debate is new technology versus ‘big business’. (not really, but, for demonstration purposes). Let’s look at Hiroshima? let’s see how Einstein felt about the effects of that technology? so, with p2p you can wipe out a few industries like music and/or film. However, did you not enjoy that music or those films? what’s the point in wiping it out? how can we sit here and type to ourselves in front of a screen when we could actually be making a difference. Reading through thread after thread, it’s all about ‘complaining’ most the time. Where’s the action? Where’s the real ‘let’s solve this and completely blow everyone’s mind?”. Let’s find the perfect way to get what we’re all after and also work out the way to turn this into a workable plan? Come on. Is torrent freak only here for a rant, or are they planning to come up with a solution?

  • Anonymous

    The Venus Project is the direction the world should be heading in but sadly isn’t.

    Bittorrent is probably the only step in this direction that I know of that millions of people pursue world wide even if it is unknowingly, and unfortunately under this monertary system most of the content being shared is illegal.

    I share not becuase i can, it’s because its the way it should be

  • A Victim

    If all of you want good music, films, software etc, why don’t you start creating instead of ripping off hard working people and calling them names? Pirates contribute NOTHING. They just make life harder for the people that actually make the products they want.

  • trocster

    I take issue with

    ‘The problem with your argument is that in law, an understanding of P2P technology isn’t relevant.’

    Like, fire, the wheel, maths and the printing press, the idea and technology behind p2p is transformative, progressive and beneficial. Making its understanding in a court case irrelevant cripples a jury’s ability to decide what is fair and just.

  • Bobe-On (fair game)

    If we accept that we are in the midst of a kind of “information war”– which I feel– then we may see lawyers, courts, politicians and cops, etc.– even “artists” themselves– less as such, and more as bullets, bombs and launchers.

    The pro/con arguments are tapering; the lines have been drawn; the tanks are rolling out.

    Real piracy, sabotage, etc., seems fair game at this point.

  • RIAA SUCKS

    Boycott RIAA, Boycott Sony (Sony Pictures, Sony Entertainment, Sony BMG, Sony Music, Sony Ericsson, ALL SONY), Boycott Universal Group. BOYCOTT ALL THESE ‘COPYRIGHT’ FUCKERS WHO THINK THEY CAN RULE THE FUCKING WORLD WITH THEIR MONEY. FUCK THEM ALL

    Boycott RIAA, Boycott Sony (Sony Pictures, Sony Entertainment, Sony BMG, Sony Music, Sony Ericsson, ALL SONY), Boycott Universal Group. BOYCOTT ALL THESE ‘COPYRIGHT’ FUCKERS WHO THINK THEY CAN RULE THE FUCKING WORLD WITH THEIR MONEY. FUCK THEM ALL

  • Anonymous

    26 Aug 11, 2009 at 03:11 by A Victim

    If all of you want good music, films, software etc, why don’t you start creating instead of ripping off hard working people and calling them names? Pirates contribute NOTHING. They just make life harder for the people that actually make the products they want.

    How do you know pirates contribute nothing?

    How can you be so sure that there is no medical, artist, scientist pirating right now??

    Besides piracy only affects those unable to compete with quality products, rapid action to adapt to the market, if it was not true piracy should have hampered growth in developing countries that instead although they don’t have the means to stop even real counterfeiting they still have growth and like China in the double digits. Well there goes the argument that piracy is bad for the economy LoL

  • kiwishare

    http://tvnz.co.nz/close-up/download-your-peril-2891198/video.

    check this out.APRA are so full of shite

  • the future is inevitable

    @15: “But, the reality is that the people who create the content need to be covered here.”

    Why?

    Other than “that’s how it’s always been done”, why do creators of content have to be reimbursed for their work?

    That’s part of technology. It changes the playing field, and the practicalities of economics ensure that what was once profitable may no longer be.

    Which is the entire point the P2P community is trying to make. Content creators are no longer guaranteed massive income by simply creating IP.

    That doesn’t mean people can’t make a living creating content. It just means that the way they look at doing business is going to have to adapt.

    There’s no reason for the legal system to keep the status quo in check, besides the fact that rich folks look out for rich folks.

  • futureKid

    Anyone know why I can not connect to TPB?

  • Mr On Line

    Of course not ..
    justice these days is all about money and you can not beat big industries like big tobacco or medicine companies as well as multimedia companies ..

    there is no such thing as justice when it comes to theses things

  • Mr On Line

    BTT !!

    TBP is down !!

  • .neo.styles|nvDX

    If that’s really true, than anarchy loses this one, I guess.

  • Just some guy

    And even if the little guy wins the multinational corporation will then appeal the verdict, and the whole process begins again.

  • 4nd

    At the moment the only way I can think that such trials would be fair (or at least less unfair) is if copyright holders took on dozens or hundreds of alleged infringers at the same time (yes, in the same trial) instead of focusing on one, using their massive influence and resources to destroy him, and moving on to the next.

    This way the balance of power might not be so ridiculously one-sided.

  • Gss

    I’m unable to connect to TPB.

  • Dingo_RG

    My opinion about some comments posted here:

    I could remember to some people here who are doing a drama about this situation, and also who on purpose want to do of this a global and international problem, that the reality is that the filesharing phenomenon is a good cause for the average citizen who conform the society as a whole and the independent musicians, and this never was a problem for them.

    The ONLY people who complains as little girls about this are a SMALL MINORITY of very rich and greedy executives who DON’T represent at all to the society, that’s a fact.

    And to the liars who repeat as parrots the lie of “sharing is stealing” I say them: FU.CK YOU!!

    I am entitled TO SHARE my possessions with who I want and as I want; this is the basic principle of the right of private property, and copyright is an illegal limitation of this right, and nobody will convince me of the opposite, Period.

  • Me

    Is pirate bay offline for anyone else but me?

  • Skittles

    I want to see them sue Micro$oft and force them to remove Copy + Paste from all their current and future operating systems.

  • Nemisis

    Tell someone to power back on the TPB servers.

    TPB is offline, please someone get them back online!!!!

    wtf

  • #YLS#

    yep TPB is out… think EZTV might be aswell…

    We all really need to start looking at alternative torrent sites before the end of the month or we’re screwed

  • Bobe-On

    @ 22 Aug 11, 2009 at 02:36 by Joe:

    You made me consider that ratcheting the whole thing progressively underground might be one strategy the industry is employing.
    Presumably, the harder it is for the average person to use any file-sharing technology, the less will use it, the less the industry will have to worry about the issue, and the easier it might be to prosecute the fringe who remain and have a minority stigma attached. I could be wrong, but here’s an old adage:

    Never underestimate your enemy.

  • Anonymous

    R.I.P Thepiratebay.org

  • Gss

    looks like maybe the strategy was:

    1) release info that you are buy TPB…make a quick buck on the stock…then dump it
    2) since everyone believes TPB is dying, everyone jumps ship
    3) kill thepiratebay permanently

    not sure how they did #3…maybe they told TPB guys that if they kill the website, they won’t do any prison time. Who knows. Is it a coincidence that Peter Sunde resigns from TPB and now it’s completely shut down?

  • oops

    these morons need to listen to what Tsun tzu the greatest military genius in history has said :

    “Do not advance relying on sheer military power”

  • hot sex gary

    I was in a band for a few years, and while we never made much money, we did end up producing an EP and playing a ton of gigs, enough to get a sweet following of fans. That is all behind me now, and the little money I did earn has been spent, but the thing that lasts is the memory of watching the crowd bouncing up and down while we played to them.

    Music isn’t about making money, its about creating something that you can share with people you are probably never going to meet. So to anybody who thinks pirates don’t contribute – we definitely do, and in my case, this is what drew me to piracy in the first place.

  • Old Timer

    This might be off topic, but I just purchased a new game that I downloaded the demo from stream…I wanted the CD and media so I paid for it…I have tried for 4 days to install it on my system and working with support from the game company they said the only option was to uninstall my virus scanner and replace my DVD player….

    My DVD player is new and there is no way that I will uninstall my firewall and virus scanners to install a game.

    So, ethically can I download a cracked copy since I have already purchased it…

    Oh I should also point out that the company I bought the game from has no sympathy for PC game purchases and say once the package is open too bad.

    Dam DRM I think it should be banned because it only hurts the legitimate purchaser and then you are treated like crap when you call for support.

    …looking for the torrent for the game…

  • Old Timer

    Humm..would this apply? http://www.thestar.com/article/676122

    But with regards to electronic media you have already purchased?

  • Mike

    ben jones you are a moron.

    This post is so fuckin stupid. When someone is caught illegally downloading music from kazza, limewire, whatever, they’re screwed. Its not a matter of innocence. Its you are guilty how much are you gonna have to pay. I’d say anyone who has been found to have been illegally downloading material and convicted went through a fair trial in the us that is. No matter how you try to justify it, infringing copyright is against the law. There is no defence to it. Join private trackers and download peer guardian. Thats going to be the only way to fight them unless you can somehow convince legislators that download copyrighted material off the internet should be legal. Its fair cause they broke the law. The fines may be outrageous BUT as long as the person had their day in court then the trial was fair. We arent innocent in what we do.

  • Mike

    When someone is caught illegally downloading music from kazza, limewire, whatever, they’re screwed. Its not a matter of innocence. Its you are guilty how much are you gonna have to pay. I’d say anyone who has been found to have been illegally downloading material and convicted went through a fair trial in the us that is. No matter how you try to justify it, infringing copyright is against the law. There is no defence to it. Join private trackers and download peer guardian. Thats going to be the only way to fight them unless you can somehow convince legislators that download copyrighted material off the internet should be legal. Its fair cause they broke the law. The fines may be outrageous BUT as long as the person had their day in court then the trial was fair. We arent innocent in what we do.

  • RIAA

    FAIR =/= RIAA

    WE RULE THE WORLD WITH MONEY. YOU KISS OUR ASSES.

  • teddy

    @Mike, you can’t justify the money sums they ask for. Stealing the same CD in real life wouldn’t warrant such amounts.

    Bankrupting people for life over a $20 album isn’t justice, they are hijacking that part of the legal system.

  • Yo

    You can’t have a fair trial based on an unfair law that the system is free to twist and turn on the spot how it sees fit.
    Change the law such that it is clear and fair and trials will be fair.

  • Common Man

    Thorstein Veblen dealt with precisely this sort of problem in his ‘The Vested Interests and the Common Man’.

    As he noted,science, technology and production develop faster than laws and customs – thus the latter are always ‘behind the times’ – and in order to get them up-to-date – political and social agitation is necessary.

    You can get the book, (and some others by Veblen) here:

    http://www.vertor.com/torrents/371050/Four-Books-by-Thorstein-Veblen

  • Moonrend

    Laws are not the same as Justice.

    American justice system does not even have laws anymore, just “guide lines”.

    It takes only few lawyers who know how to talk and do theater to get a murderer walking free and the victim in the jail.
    (And money for bribes, research, ect..)

  • lverona

    ‘The problem with your argument is that in law, an understanding of P2P technology isn’t relevant.’

    Law is generalizations. If law would’ve been applied blindly, we’d all be dead by now. That’s why courts exist – to solve situations, with the law trying to outline the ethical norms. But when law is blindly put above ethics and common sense – there is nothing to be proud about.

    If someone would go to court and say – I was hit by electricity – so I was damaged and I want to sue the electricity company. Would the court not hear out how electricity works and how can one get hit by it? And then perhaps instead of suing the company who provides electricity, tell the man to not touch the wires with the bare hands?

    The “industry” behaves like this person – it continues to hold the wires with bare hands and keeps on suing the electrons. All you have to do is let go of the wires.

  • Old Timer

    57 Aug 11, 2009 at 09:11 by lverona

    If you use your analogy, the man is already dead….

  • volektau

    Very good article.

    The laws are unfair aswell as the trials. Laws and penalties are geared towards commercial/criminal levels of involvement rather than social/civil levels even if they do go under the guise of civil disputes.

    The business models for entertainment industry will soon be 10 years out of date. Change the laws change the business model and stop criminalizing a large percentage of your citizens.

    -Obey Music (OMB001D) // Nov 09

  • Anonymous

    Yet another BIASED story!

  • lverona

    Old Timer: haha! true

  • Anonymous

    Also, for all these pro-copyright people, you need to get your head round a very simple concept.

    One download does not equal one lost sale.

    As a matter of fact, the bands I listen to have profited from the one single download I made in high school years ago which got me interested in music.

    Point the finger of blame at the multinationals. They ruin it for all the normal people.

  • TerribleTony

    Really good article, could be a first for TF. ;) :p

    I think we need to wait another, say 20 years, before the general populace catch up with us pioneers.

  • Ressy

    I’ve heard there’s some countries where the looser pays for the court costs of both sides.
    That might work out, since the defendant is pretty much bankrupt if they loose regardless, and they can afford to hire a better lawyer with the promise of a big fat record industry payoff.

  • Humanity Sucks

    I’ve served on several juries and despised it all. I discovered first hand that laws, morality and fairness have nothing to do with a trial. Jurors are a clueless lot for the most part and tend to be more interested in going home than seeing justice prevail. Hardly anyone’s peers. In the end it always came down to whose lawyer could weave the more believable tale and not the evidence (or lack thereof). The rest was irrelevant drama, quickly forgotten. If you ever end up as a defendant my advice is to expect the worst, pray for the best and hope you have any kind of luck because you’re definitely going to need it.

  • zeebart

    ok so some of you say that the creators need to make $$$ (fair enough), but lemme just ask some of our “sue happy” friends who read TF one question:

    honestly, even though you “recover damages” on the creators behalf…do the creators actually even see a SINGLE DIME from what you`ve recovered??

    funny thing, of all the P2P articles, that is never even brought up (except in those cases where the creator didn`t even know someone was being sued on their behalf…i guess if you don`t tell them you won`t have to pay them, right?)

  • Anonymous

    When pigs fly that will be the day a fair trial will take place LoL

  • h33t

    plus the massive issue of guilt by legal creep (the verb not the noun) caused by the miseducation of the public consciouness by both sides in the battle for p2p rights

    our own torrentfreak has been a big player contributing to the close association of filesharing with criminal piraxy due to its blind support of the “pirates” at tpb and the repeated “pirate” hyperbole. even when Sunde himself says the concept of “piracy” on his site was more in humour and not at all to do with criminal activity, people in the p2p scene who should have known better have been screaming from the mountains their support of “pirates”

    prior to tpb and their jolly gang of followers, filesharing was in the mind of those who knew anything about it a fair use activity divorced from the criminal activity of copying retail products for distribution for profit. today, in the mind of the courts, the media cartel, the public at large, who do not know anything about filesharing except from what they have been provided from the anti-p2p propaganda machine, filesharing more or less equates to piracy

    it is useful to note that 99.99% of the world’s media content, including the news, is owned and operated by the same cartel that produces the games, movies, music etc. the books in the schools, the tv content the potato people consume daily, the newspapers, all come out of the same source

    this intrinsic link filesharing now has with criminal activity defines the context in which a court sits to consider the rights and wrongs of the contest. if a judge and a jury can be criticised for being biased then the big players in the filesharing world can be criticised for helping to create and support that bias. not one article exists on freak where a legal definition has been attempted to diferentiate filesharing from criminal activity and help forge a public understanding that in the new world of digital distribution filesharing is distinct from criminal action by the fact it is undefined in law due to the destructive nature of the technology. to be very clear: to fileshare is to break the current incumbent system for no other reason that bittorrent is very well understood to be economically a “destructive technology” and that in itself cannot be inherently criminal nor civily liable. to oppose filesharing is an attempt to criminalise technology, luddite is a term the cartel is familiar with

    http://www.h33t.com banging on about it again, sorry but the message is not yet out there sufficiently. maybe the criminalisation of technology argument will gain ground

  • Jim Lewis

    I dont think there is any such thing as a fair trial anymore!

    RT
    http://www.anon-web-tools.net.tc

  • Nineball

    “As long as he law favours the rich it will never be fair.”

    This!

    What people haven’t realized yet is that in this world there are only two types of people: The Rich and The Slaves. Slaves being that no matter how hard they try, not matter how much they work, they will always be working to pay bills, and TRY to go on with life with small things that make them still feel human. They will always be slaves to their jobs, corporate leaders, governments, bills, and many other rich individuals of society. The Rich however have a simpler definition; They have no worries. The laws protect them, and adhere to them, Our governments protect them, and we are slaves to them.

    To this day The Rich have not realized that we (the slaves) are the reason why they are rich. We work for them. With out us as consumers and workers they are nothing! Yet they don’t care about us.

    My name is Matthew Cusanelli
    and I am a Slave

  • h33t

    that is absolutely correct

    and democracy is the fake system they impose to lull the slaves into the false sense that they have some control of their destiny

    http://www.h33t.com is Sparta!

  • Anonymous

    They can prove that the stuff is on your computer, but unless you admit to it, there is no way for them to prove that you put it there. Just say you don’t know anything about it and that somebody must have gained access to your computer.

  • Odin

    @73
    Democracy certainly isn’t fake system. The think is, vast majority of the world doesn’t live in democracy, they live in republics.

    Athenians, the first democracy in the world, considered elections undemocratic because it gives advantage to the rich and popular.

  • Anonymous

    If I had charges pressed against me in the US and fled to Canada, can I be safe?

  • Anonymous

    Nope, there is no laws that give rights to the people only ones that take those from them in IP(Intellectual Property).

    So ergo that one cannot expect to win a P2P case in the majority of scenarios only a very narrow and still diminishing set off those said scenarios.

    We the people were robbed of our rights and people just didn’t care enough before but that is changing soon the industry together with other industry may find themselves demonized like the catholic church is today and will lose control and power we just are not at the tipping point just yet, people still didn’t feel pain enough to spring them into action but it will happen because they will push for more insane laws and more land grabbing and it will reach a point were not only the hardcores will stop caring about hiding but joe on the corner will too.

  • Odin

    Just a few things some of you should realize before you post …

    1. To the law, technology matters, because law is only a guideline which has to be applied on a case by case basis. That is why we have courts. If those who make the decisions don’t understand the technological matters, how can they make just decisions? Hence the spectacles some courts have become …

    2. There is no “intellectual property”. Property is a civilised solution to the problem of scarcity – but ideas and information, once published, are not scarce.
    From this it follows that violation of a copyright is not a theft, since you are not taking anything from anyone else.

    3. Copyright is not a right, it is a privilege that we the members of society give creators in the form of a temporary state enforced monopoly to provide incentive to create.
    Or at least it was meant in this way – to protect creators from distributors. Never was it meant to protect the distributors from the people. But the distributors used their financial power to twist laws to their benefit. Is it such a surprise that so many are fighting against creating nonsensical scarcity where none naturally exists?

    Distributors are becoming obsolete, since with internet anyone can become their own distributor. They are dinosaurs fighting the last battle against us, the people. They will lose, the only question is how far will they go – or more precisely how far will we let them go.

    If artists used internet to distribute themselves, they would make much more money that they are currently given by greedy corporate distributors. Some already realized it, most still didn’t. The best thing we can do is support those artists who did, to prove they can be successful without bankrupting normal people. That will show other creators there is another way, and that will take the power away from the likes of MAFIAA.

  • Anonymous

    when pigs fly LoL

    Seriously now. We in the world don’t have sane IP laws that make sense.
    Those laws were preached and signed in a time when people didn’t need nor cared about those rights and now that they do there is an industry firmly planted inside and that won’t go away, without a fight which is fine I love challenges and will be fun to watch them screaming and trying to pose themselves as victims is all part of that big show called “life”.

    So the industry don’t adapt but society also is slow to change, in many countries there is no infra-structure to defend people, EFF, UCLA and other organizations exist only in the U.S. and they should exist in all countries that is the civil infra-structure that will guarantee that governments and companies stay honest, this thing have many fronts, one is political, the other one is the civil structures that the people create to coupe with problems, and there is then the personal level.

  • Anonymous

    The problem here is time…

    The cartels have spent many decades if not centuries paying off politicians and lawmakers to create favorable conditions to them on copyright.

    You cannot beat a system that is inherently biased from the start.

    The jury system is especially flawed. How can you have a fair trial when you are not allowed peers with an understanding of the technology being used? Juries should be randomly chosen and NOT inspected or questioned on their knowledge or beliefs prior to a court case.

  • silversurfer

    so true there will never be a fair case when hughe money invoid

  • Sackman

    Keep up with the cool stories bro!

  • Hicks

    @Odin

    Hear hear! Well said!

  • Saddened

    wow. industry fanboys are out in force today.

    anyway, my biggest gripe about these trials, from everything I’ve seen you’re convicted of a $5-million dollar crime on “evidence” that a savvy 10-year-old could reproduce for any IP in about 5 mins.

    if you tried to convict me of robbing a gas-station by presenting as your evidence a note you typed and printed from your printer saying “John Doe robbed this gas station,” you would be laughed out of court. but this is essentially what the majority of these people are being accused on …

    the whole thing is a freakin mess. can’t wait till the general public starts waking up and demanding better alternatives.

  • lverona

    @Odin – great words, second every bit of it. Especially about the property as many people do not understand this.

  • Rah

    The mafiaa can get all the laws they want because of legalized corruption also called lobbying. How in that case a fair trial would be possible? Spain, where they are not infested by the entertainment industry as much as in France and in the US, they are able to make good decisions. But in the US or in France the mafiaa is like a cancer.

  • MMx

    Only in a world were laws are applied without bias…

    Sadly we live in a world were corporations wants come before the majority’s rights, heck look at how much public domain has been butchered in the name of cash hungry corporations greed….

  • Anonymous

    u dumb fucks. just because the courts dont agree with your twisted little opinions doesnt mean u can go around and slander the good name of others. get real piracy is affecting profits and there is no getting around that.

    and no i dont like the riaa or mpaa its just you faggots take this whole piracy thing too far. nobody gives a shit about linux distros or freeware torrents they want the GOOD SHIT like DVD SCREENERS that come out before the movie in theaters.

  • Anonymous

    How is it possible to be ruled against in court without any chance to give a defense???

  • anon

    p2p needs to die and be buried. good riddance to all the parasitic bandwidth hoggers.

  • Bobe-On

    @ Aug 12, 2009 at 10:52 by anon:

    Apparently, the issue of bandwidth may be a bit of a distortion for the corporate ISP industry to both suck up to the MPAA and at the same time make yet more money. Kill 2 birds with one stone.

    In a p2p mesh network– disruptive-technology and an ostensible future nightmare for every ISP– bandwidth increases with every peer:

    “Wireless mesh architecture is a first step towards providing high-bandwidth network over a specific coverage area… Mesh architecture sustains signal strength by breaking long distances into a series of shorter hops. Intermediate nodes not only boost the signal, but cooperatively make forwarding decisions based on their knowledge of the network, i.e. performs routing. Such an architecture may with careful design provide high bandwidth, spectral efficiency, and economic advantage over the coverage area.”
    –Wikipedia

    To the minority who are still arguing against file-sharing:

    It’s old hat. (10 years since Napster?) The arguments have already been made. Look ‘em up. File sharing needs to move forward, is moving forward, and needs to avoid being bogged down/lied to by the industry and its moles.

    All for one and one for all.

  • h33t

    Odin makes a nice point:

    “at least it was meant in this way – to protect creators from distributors. Never was it meant to protect the distributors from the people”

    the technology for distribution of content is for the first time in the hands of the people and what we see is the conflict between the old and the new, no prizes for guessing correctly who will win

    and Bobe-On is correct there is a massive global industry earning a living wage from the bandwidth used by p2p

    http://www.h33t.com when his day comes will say everything in court what tpb failed to voice

  • Drake3

    @A Victim

    The thing is, technology has made the RIAA and the MPAA mostly obsolete as distribution media. They are trying to fight it just like other sharing technological advances in the past. They could change their business model
    and use this new sharing technology to help them improve themselves. Instead, they are choosing to fight this new technology, this new advancement in sharing, and take thousands of people down with them using the courts. That is why I consider this to be the Copyright War. While no physical blood is being shed, blood in the form of money is being shed by both the industry giants and the thousands of people they are suing through court.

    To give you some examples with some similarity, imagine how candle makers must have felt or how they reacted towards the invention of the light bulb. How about carriage builders and horse farmers with the invention of the car? What about almost every cottage artisan with the start of the industrial revolution?

    Now imagine in one of those examples they had succeeded in stopping the technology by suing for damages. Would that really have been a good thing?

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    .neo.style$|nvDX

    Oh boy did I get it for this one.. Atleast I got a fair trial.. My man actually threatened to drag me to court dressed in my BDSM gear.. I atleast tried to rectumfy it by by spewing more blubber from my filled mouth but it diddn’t work.. You can guess what happens next..

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