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OiNK Admin Received Nearly $300k in Donations

The trial of OiNK administrator Alan Ellis is underway. Yesterday the jury was picked and today it was revealed that Ellis had gathered $300,000 in several Paypal accounts over the years, allegedly gleaned from site donations. The jury of twelve has been warned not to do any independent research on the Internet.

oinkYesterday, the OiNK trial continued with the selection of a jury consisting of 10 men and two women. Beforehand they were all asked whether they were familiar with the OiNK BitTorrent tracker, if they held any special interest in protecting copyright holders or had any connections with anti-piracy groups.

The jurors were further warned by Judge Briggs not to Google for OiNK or do any other form of research on the Internet. This might be a good suggestion, as many of the mainstream press reports thus far have been littered with inaccuracies.

Even the BBC report the site was free to join, but in the very next sentence say it cost £5. In another article they report it cost $5.

“It would be most unfortunate if any of you did any private research on the internet relating to this matter. Please don’t,” said Briggs. “It’s only likely to cause difficulties and could in theory abort the trial. So, ladies and gentlemen, no independent research.”

Judge Briggs told the jurors that the defendant, OiNK admin Alan Ellis, is charged with an offence of conspiracy to defraud.

“Put very simply it is suggested he was involved in a website that was used to distribute sound recordings and things of that nature in breach of copyright,” he said.

Ellis denies the charge that he “conspired with others unknown” to defraud the music industry.

Today the trial continued and the jury was told by the prosecution that the OiNK tracker facilitated 21 million downloads. Ellis, who accepted donations from members, had gathered almost $300,000 (£190,000) in several PayPal accounts over the years, money that allegedly came from donations.

“Every penny was going to Mr Ellis,” said Peter Makepeace, prosecuting. “He hadn’t sung a note, he hadn’t played an instrument, he hadn’t produced anything. The money was not going to the people it rightly belonged to, it was going to Mr Ellis.”

The prosecution failed to mention that the money was used by Ellis to pay for the servers and hosting, which probably cost him several thousand dollars a month.

The court was further told how OiNK did not host or distribute any music itself, but instead indexed files shared by its users for others to download.

When responding to a description of how BitTorrent works, that leechers share what they download with other peers, thus speeding up downloads, Mr Makepeace commented: “That is the beauty of the Oink website. It never had to upload any music itself, all it did was provide the facility of linking one person to another who wanted that music.”

After his arrest, the prosecution said that Ellis told officers: “All I do is really like Google, to really provide a connection between people. None of the music is on my website.”

The case continues.

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  • zod

    best of luck mate

  • independent research

    yes do what your told

  • Bing

    All the best.

  • Nathan

    good luck mate

  • chevron

    $300k ? Sounds a lot. Generous donors. But I’d be curious to know a bit more about those figures, because it seems fantastically high for ANY site donations.

    But to claim it was all going to him is nonsense. If that were the case, the funds would probably have been moved from Paypal to a private account. The fact such sums were left in the donor account would seem to demonstrate his honesty.

  • Anonymous

    As a UK citizen, I have been following this case since its inception, and it is interesting to finally get some news after the trial of Ellis was postponed several times throughout 2009.

    It doesn’t look good that he had accumulated such a substantial amount of money through operating the site. It’s unlikely he will be able to came that all the money was earmarked for overheads such as bandwidth and servers.

    Other individuals arrested at the time have already been tried, and many of them pleaded guilty to lesser offenses.

    Ellis’s not guilty plea is an interesting development, but after the (legally persuasive) precedents of the Pirate Bay, Mininova and Isohunt cases, prospects seem to be looking pretty bleak for Ellis.

    The site did get some high profile support from the likes of Trent Reznor, but this seems unlikely to be of much avail.

    I never actually frequently Oink myself, but it sounded like a virtual audiophile’s utopia. I’m not saying I totally agree with the way it was operated – on a members only basis and with an apparently substantial cashflow, making it hard for Ellis to align himself with the more altruistic philosophy endorsed by the Pirate Bay admins, for example.

    However, it’s emergence and success seemed like an inevitable result of the record industry’s lack of ability or inclination to offer a similar –albeit paid for– alternative themselves. And judging by the balance of Ellis’ PayPal accounts, people were willing to pay for such a service.

    Anyway, onwards and upwards towards more egalitarian management of intellectual property rights and profit derived therefrom.

    As TorrentFreak editors have consistently pointed out in previous posts, future file sharing site admins can only learn from the folly of those who fell before them…

    UK file sharers have better things to worry about in terms of the Digital Britain report, aiming to empower ISPs to monitor and disconnect those suspected of infringing copyright. This should never become law, unless you want to give the same responsibility to the postman to open private mail or telephone companies to tap conversations.

    It is the responsibility of law enforcement agencies – and those agencies alone – with warrants or other proper legal instruments – to intercept such communications; and only, IMHO, in order to protect public safety where a serious threat is perceived or suspected.

    But NOT in order to protect Hollywoods/BPI/RIAA/MPAA’s bottom lines – and certainly not if conducted by ISPs.

  • Mr.Afghanistan

    300k received but ask how much of that money was spent to pay for hosting and seedboxes of oInk ?

    300k$ not received in 1 day, it was received in 5 years.

    Divid 300k with 5 years. each year 12 months. that money is nothing if you run a famous torrent site.

    300k divide with 60 months = 5k$ only/month

    5k$ for a famous site, it’s nothing. you think running a big site with 450k membership costs nothing ?

    Stop bullshitting and don’t be paranoid.

  • Anonymous

    $300k??? and they say Piracy doesn’t pay???

  • Shadow

    You’re my hero, break a leg! Or two, whatever helps you win this godforsaken trial.

  • Squeal Piggy Piggy

    Oink was an extremely lucrative website and made hundreds of thousands of pounds from “donations”

  • Dingle

    @7

    The article reads to me that he 300k left in his paypal accounts when he was arrested, not his total earnings. As in, 300k profit after paying for servers etc.

    But the article is not too clear on that, that’s just how I understood it when I read it

  • djnforce9

    @5: It just goes to show you that people would much rather pay for a good cause like a torrent site the magnitude of OiNK than waste their hard earned cash feeding the corporate “fat cats” who refuse to get with the times.

    It also goes to show you that if a legal DRM-Free alternative existed that allowed similar freedom for a small price about the size of an average donation, people would likely go for it (and no, the overpriced iTunes store with that atrocious media player is NOT a viable alternative). The same reason why people are willing to pay monthly fees for UseNet and VPN services.

  • Tigger

    “He hadn’t sung a note, he hadn’t played an instrument, he hadn’t produced anything”

    As Mr Afghanistan points out, running a highprofile website isnt cheap, and the money was accumulated over a period of 5 years.
    But even ignoring this fact, wether he was an artist or not – he had produced something….the website itself! He wasnt making this money from pirated sales, he was making it from donations. I say he is entitled to every penny of it.
    A donation isnt a compulsary charge in exchange for downloaded music, its a voluntary payment to show support for the site.
    I say good luck to Alan Ellis!
    Hashs, checksums and indexing are not illegal and you are definatly not guilty. Will be interesting to watch which direction the UK court system takes this, im begining to wonder if the UK really is a democracy =/

  • Anonymous

    Here’s something clear from the start: Makepeace is full of shit, and that the BBC article is badly researched.

    Take the 300k for example:
    “Teesside Crown Court was told he had $300,000 in his Paypal account”
    and then
    “Mr Makepeace said: “It is clear that he received by way of donations personally, almost $300,000.” ”

    So that’s a *total* of $300,000 in the sites entire lifetime? Why are we told that he had all this in his account at the time of the arrest?

  • Paul

    I say fuck him! To hell with private trackers!

    I don’t support people who wouldn’t share with me. They make a lot of money from this and they believe themselves to be kings in their pathetic little trackers.

  • soonerorlater

    May he rot in jail for profiting high with p2p/BitTorrent while posing like so many private tracker owners, like altruistic non-profit ‘share the luv” BS. Liars and scammers, all of them.

  • Virotelisa

    “He hadn’t sung a note, he hadn’t played an instrument, he hadn’t produced anything.”

    He runs a tracker, keeps it updated, secured and so on. It needs bandwidth, hardware and maintenance. Why do people so readily dismiss activities as “nothing” if they don’t produce physical products?

    Furthermore this again neglects that people might have discovered new bands, interests or software that they bought legally afterwards. I stated plenty of times already that i still buy CD’s and that i discovered some fairly smalltime bands thanks to torrents. Since i wouldn’t have bought random Cd’s i would argue that in my case downloading lead to additional sales.

    I am well aware that this doesn’t go for everyone. And i am well aware that plenty of people use downloading as a means to obtain items they would normally have paid for. But the world isn’t black and white. Unfortunately most companies are so colorblind they cannot even see the shades of gray in between.

    Downloading isn’t only to be hailed as something fantastic, it certainly has its drawbacks as well. But man should see its advantages as well.

  • Dimagus

    I would think the 300k figure includes the 60 months of donations while the site was running normal operations in addition to any “Court Defense Donations” freely given to pay for this court battle.

    The prosecution are full of fecal matter.

  • Anonymous

    “He runs a tracker, keeps it updated, secured and so on. It needs bandwidth, hardware and maintenance. Why do people so readily dismiss activities as “nothing” if they don’t produce physical products?”

    Just as you see compressed copies of films as “nothing” because they aren’t physical copies and therefore a free-for-all in copying them

  • Ninja

    Nice comments here. @ 6 Jan 07, 2010 at 18:41 by Anonymous agreed.

    I’m not sure how things worked but even if he had 300k in his paypal accounts, it means it wasn’t with him. And maybe he did make a living of that working only for the site which would prove people are willing to GIVE money for good stuff, something MAFIAA refuses to acknowledge and leads to all those lawsuits.

    I’m not gonna judge him for having such money since I don’t know his background and other details. In any case, if I were gonna keep a torrent site I would be much more open with what is done with the donations. And if I had all that money I’d save enough to keep the tracker running for an year and have a kind of internal poll or something to decide which artists would receive a piece of the share based on the users…

    I might open a tracker one of these days and see if I can develop it in a nice community hahaha

  • hmm

    i think the ‘i’m doing the same as google’ argument is a bit old now. Its been tried and has failed on every attempt. Hope he’s got a better defense than that alone!

  • Capt Hook

    I wonder how much $ of ours the thieves over at ScT got.

  • Anonymous

    I do not believe anyone could aquire any donations anywhere near that ammount. Either Bullshit, richman or drugs.

  • Unauthorized Content Consumer

    This story is missing critical details:

    1) How much did it cost to actually run the web site annually?

    2) How much of those donations were actually collected for a legal defense fund?

    3) How can anyone run a worldwide high traffic web site without money?

    4) How do they know he hasn’t sang a note or played an instrument?

    Sounds all like nonsense to me. Google does the exact same thing. Anyone can easily find unauthorized content through their search engine using the filetype:torrent search.

    Good luck buddy. I hope you can afford highly technically intelligent lawyers that know how to do their research.

  • Anonymous

    “He hadn’t sung a note, he hadn’t played an instrument, he hadn’t produced anything. The money was not going to the people it rightly belonged to, it was going to Mr Ellis.”

    *ahem*

    “They hadn’t sung a note, they hadn’t played an instrument, they hadn’t produced anything. The money was not going to the people it rightly belonged to, it was going to the record labels.”

  • Anonymous

    hypocrites? surely not.

  • Anonymouse

    Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

  • Anonymous

    I makes you wonder how they knew he had 300k in is paypal account?

  • Rboy

    while I love file sharing the altruism of site owners is BS there is money involved. What do the site owners of tpb do for a living?

    The google argument might fail in court but where is the line? The problem is there are no clear lines about what is allowed and what is not.

    If physical libraries can exist and share why can’t there be a virtual equivalent?

    It seems to me that actually selling downloads is worse then hosting torrents. While a good torrent site might make enough for it’s staff to make a good living for most I suspect it only a good part time income.

    I guess the bottom line is that the justice is a little misplaced. Especially since almost everything that was Oink could be had on other sites meaning that the damage one site does or did is insignificant compared with the totality of the net.

    In fact if true common law prevailed indexing and downloading would be legal because by acclamation the public has decided that it is in the best interest of the public for it to exist.

  • Anonymous

    With a kind of justice like this one where even the judge is corrupted to the core and is lying to the teeth to the jury only guns are useful to resolve this type issue.

  • DaveH

    $300,000 over 5 years …..
    He going to be hard pressed to show that at no time was that money used to rent servers that were not in fact used to seed anything on the site.
    I would not have thought that Oink needed the server power that would buy each month just to run the tracker and possable IRCD……

    I can only persum this is why they are after him on the carges they have put against him.

    “conspired with others unknown” to defraud the music industry

    If any of these funds are shown to have been to provide seed box’s to users or staff which in turn provided the releases to there users -He is done for…

  • NoOne

    WTF Ernesto! why did you have to choose that title? Implies he kept all the money. most likely it went to pay hosting.

    Best of luck Ellis.

  • pirateprideWW

    What’s the big deal if he did make some money from it? Was he not providing a valuable service? People donated on their own volition – Mr. Ellis wasn’t robbing them. It’s not like all (or even most) of the money was for his personal spending pleasure, either, and further, this is just an alleged figure at this point.

    Much rather this guy gets 300 billion than the MAFIAA gets a cent!

  • pirateprideWW

    On second thought, reading through the comments, it seems this is probably the sum figure he received during the entirety of the site’s operation. Wow, what a shocker – the mainstream media and MAFIAA scum lawyers get figures wrong/report misleadingly (purposefully, probably).

    It doesn’t really make sense to keep so much money in a PayPal account, anyways. You want to make sure it’s stored securely (like in an insured bank… or buried in your back yard).

  • Anonymous
  • keekee

    Move to EU. Common law sux:)

  • Good Luck Alan

    Looks like a filthy, wild savage to me! That’s what pirates are you know! ;-D

  • wow

    I bet the server cost’s were around 3-5k a month which where he was recieving around 5k a month, so it is all used only on the site.

  • blanka

    @5

    There is no such thing as a “UK Citizen”.

    You are technically a “subject of the crown”.

  • blanka

    Scrub my last comment – I was wrong

  • Carefully Watching

    This isn’t going to be a trail on torrent and how it works but if he went out to defaud copyright users. The money will be a key issue as it will show that he received significant income. So the goal will be to show that he knowingly ran a website that contained copyrighted materials and made money off of it.

    I am very pro file sharing but I hope he didn’t do what TPB guys did which openly discussed pirating software etc. I always thought it was a dumb move posting those letters on their site (although I laughed for a long time reading each and every one of them).

    I have no doubt that Alan will be seen as a martyr for his cause I wish him all the luck as this is one of the key sites in history to push forward change!

  • Alan Ellis (A True Freedom Fighting Hero)

    “independent research on the Internet”

    what the hell is that when the so called unbiased BBC take side’s in these matters.

    history has told us we can not trust governments or their law systems.

    I wish alan had all the money and power in the world so he could fight these despicable bastards.

    we only have our selves to blame.

    To put up with lies which introduce laws to “catch terrorist” which only use so far to spy on the parents of young children to see if they are indeed in the schools catchment area, or how about seeing if people are recycling there rubbish properly.

    It’s quite clear to me what these laws were for and none of them have to do with terrorism.

    Th united kingdom has become a beta test for dehumanization a sort of “see how far we can push these bastards”.

    NEVER MORE HAVE THESE WORDS BE SO TRUE.

    First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me

    good luck Alan i am afraid you will need it

  • Rabbit80

    Dammit – I wish i could get some time off work… I would go watch this trial!

  • hmmm

    If he really accumulated $300k _after_ paying for the servers and bandwidth, then he was just a greedy bastard and is not better than those mafiAA guys.

    The only acceptable reason for doing P2P is not doing any profit out of it.

    This particular element, if real, might create a huge precedent and intensify the propaganda and harsh law response against bt sites.

    This is a very bad day for file sharing.

  • Yatti420

    @40..

    While you are right on the essence of the trial all the site contained is .torrent files.. Regardless of how or when the money was collected they still have to prove he conspired with others to find him guilty.. Hence he pleaded not guilty..

    As for TPB.. At that time the laws in Sweden aired on the side of TPB.. Meaning they weren’t breaking the law.. When the laws changed TPB simply moved to another country etc.. In spain if you download for personal use I believe it’s still legal.. Canada is a grey zone here.. Personal use etc can’t really be targeted.. The CRIA (RIAA) tried and failed miserably using john doe tactics which isn’t allowed in Canada.. Hence you don’t see massive sue em all campaigns here..

  • Good Luck Alan

    The massive sue em all campaign failed in the US as well!

  • Anomy

    For anyone who claims he used any money he accumulated for himself, just remember, he lived in a bedsit in Middlesborough..

    Google Middlesborough if you want to see why you wouldn’t want to live there.

  • Black Swann

    **OFF TOPIC**
    Beware adverts on isoHunt & TPM amongst other have PDF vulnerabilities on them
    See http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20091223/tc_pcworld/hackershitopenxadserverinadobeattack

    and isoHunt frontpage
    http://isohunt.com/

    Fortunately NIS picked up the one on TPB

  • Rooney

    Are the torrent freak guys complete idiots?? BBC reported correctly when saying that joining is free, and that it also cost 5 bucks…how?? It is free for the new member to join..But to join, he needs an invitation from a member who is already on oink..To get this invitation link, the old user should pay 5 bucks to the site..So essentially, for the new user joining is free, and for the person who invites the new user, he has to pay 5 bucks..So, what BBC said was absolutely correct… Seems like torrent freak is just interested in bashing the Music Industry, and do not really know what is actually going on..

  • a/s/l

    the £190k means nothing in terms of the lawsuit surely, as these were donations, no-one is forced to make a donation.

    the fact that he made money out of the site is nothing more than a consequence of the site users’ appreciation of the superb website he created.

    OiNK was incredible, but if it was still around, there would be no what.cd.

  • Trainer

    Oink Lasted from 2004 to 2007..That’s 3 years.. 300000/36 =8333.33
    In the real world, oink did not suddenly spring out of the ground with 200000 members..they started off with around 500 members, which slowly started growing..They reached around 100000 members by end of 2005. So, I’d say the server cost bellowed up only in the later half of 2005..So, the high server cost applies only for 2 years.. I’d say he had to spend around 3000-4000 per month.. surely not more than that..But even if the whole 3 years are taken into account, he still was amassing 3000 dollars per month profit after all his costs.. Its obvious that he did it for the profit.. The claim that e did not write a song, or sung a note really hits the nerve.. We shouldnt be supporting this guy.. He is just a small version of Music Industry..except..he gives the artists “NOTHING” compared to the music industry which gives the artist “something”..

  • ROLF

    good luck also!

    @50 he carries A HELL of a risk, people who carry risks deserve a lot of money..

    btw. if the whole system wasn’t so f*ck*d there wouldent be people receiving money for not really doing anything..

  • Ben Dover

    @48 – You have no idea what you’re talking about. I was a memeber of OiNK and there was absolutely no money paid to receive invitations. All donations were given freely with absolutely nothing given in return, aside from a donation icon next to your username. Invites were generated by being a Power User, not by donationss made to the site. I love how the supposedly trustworthy news sources keep regurgitating false information.

  • Reasoned Mind

    @43 Hmm

    “The only acceptable reason for doing P2P is not doing any profit out of it.”

    But that’s not possible. Even if you totally discount price, a pirate still profits the value of the possession of the music. Value is different from price. And it’s pure profit, too, because nothing makes it to the artists, forget about the labels, the artists get screwed just as badly or worse.

    Because you gave no price, either. It’s all pure profit over what you had before from any angle.

  • Liudvikas

    It is completely irrelevant whether he made profit or not. People donated money to support his product – oink website, not to illegally buy music.

  • Black Swann

    Sadly it’s not completely irrelevant. He facilitated acquiring content illegally in civil law-and was profiting whilst the creators and content holders received zilch

    “When I am king you will be first against the wall

    With your opinion that has no consequence at all”

    T.Yorke “Paranoid Android”

    Should be the motif of bloggers on this site.
    Disagree with us and you’ll be shredded and , quite possibly, SHOT

  • zarathustra

    What #12 said – exactly right!

    The sums discussed here – donated over the years – PROVE that people are happy to pay for downloading music.

    Get with the times, you irrelevant, obsolete fat-cats of the publishing industries.

    either that, or just please FOADIAF…

  • Ace Hall

    @Black Swann
    Thanks for the link about the adobe bug. Since I use AdBlock I never see ads anyway. There is also a problem with ‘LSO’ files. Google “flash cookies” or “super cookies” and then check this site for something that will freak you out!
    http://www.imasuper.com/66/technology/flash-cookies-the-silent-privacy-killer/

    On Topic:
    No independent research that might let the jurors have an opinion based on facts not the fictions presented by the prosecution? Seems fair to me. /sarcasm

  • Liudvikas

    @55 He did not host any illegal content, all illegal content was hosted by the users of the site.

  • xxploit

    how can u say that he made 300k for facilitating/or even uploading music. maybe the donations were made because people liked the design of the website, however stupid that may sound.u cant directly link that without asking every single donor about his/her reasons

  • Anonymous

    Whoever said file sharers are pirates and don’t pay for anything are full of sh!t

  • \\.neo.styles|sSG

    Legal fees wont help them if they can’t come up with a logical argument for their torrent site. In the end, there is little in the way of a defense that can be provided for the site’s activities. As was the case with isohunt, the judge will undoubtedly realize that Oink exists purely to facilitate copyright infringement and theft.

  • Anonymous

    I have just been doing some ‘internet research’, but fortunately I am not a member of the jury :-)

    Definition of “conspiracy to defraud”, the offence with which Ellis is charged:

    http://tinyurl.com/5bvydz

    Interesting excerpts:

    Defrauding
    ———-

    “to defraud ordinarily means… to deprive a person dishonestly of something which is his or of something to which he is or would or might but for the perpetration of the fraud be entitled”

    Dishonesty
    ———-

    “A jury must first decide whether according to the ordinary standard of reasonable and honest people what was done was dishonest. If it was not dishonest by those standards, dishonesty cannot be established and the prosecution must fail”

    “If it is dishonest by the ordinary standards of reasonable and honest people the jury must then consider whether the defendant himself must have realised that what he was doing was by those standards dishonest”

    “It is dishonest for the defendant to act in a way which he knows ordinary people consider dishonest, even if he believes that it was not dishonest or he was morally justified in acting as he did”

    Jurisdiction
    ————

    At common law, a conspiracy to commit a crime abroad cannot be prosecuted in England if the purpose of the conspiracy is to defraud abroad, even if there would be, for example, incidental loss or damage to a company or individual in England as a result of damage abroad”

    Implications
    ————

    There seem to be several implications arising from the definition of the offence with which Ellis was charged.

    The Google Defence
    ——————

    Ellis claimed when he was arrested that his site was no different to Google in the respect that it provided links to copyrighted material but did not actually host the material.

    If the jury deem such practices not to be ‘dishonest’ in the sense outlined above, then the charge of ‘conspiracy to defraud’ will fail.

    However, I would suspect the the prosecution will contend that the ability to locate copyrighted material on search engines such as Google is incidental to the main purpose of such websites. They will suggest, conversely, that locating copyrighted material for download was central to the aim, or indeed the sole aim, of Oink and other services like it, and therefore dishonest.

    According to jurisdictional limitations (above), companies and individuals represented by the RIAA or other American based organisations cannot be the victims in cases of conspiracy to defraud charged in England – hence the reason why this case was brought by the British or international equivalents, IFPI and BPI.

    Does this mean that a site like Oink which offered copyrighted material for download which infringed only the rights of companies based abroad would be immune to prosecution under conspiracy to defraud?

    Aggravating factors
    ——————-

    The facts that pre-release material was available and such seemingly large amounts of money were raised from donations seem to weigh against a successful defence argument in any event.

    Watching with anticipation…

  • Anonymous

    @54

    Obvious troll is obvious.

  • CFultz

    Ok… so they’re saying that they we’re basically paying for the music by donating money to OiNK? Wait Wait Wait… It’s a DONATION to run the community! Without the DONATIONS the community would’ve died!

  • Anonymous

    WHERE DO I SIGN UP TO TESTIFY?!!?!

  • Bella

    fascinating reading here – and obviously this is a very pro-torrent blog site…

    but why is a difference of opinion like @54 who is obviously in the minority here called a troll

    You guys are so one-eyed… a little bit of balance and seeing the other point of view is a good thing too!

  • Obedient

    what kind of world are we moving into, where people are ordered “not to research”! Ridiculous! People (including jurors) should do ALL the research they can.
    The record labels are all about profits (Oh, you see? These pirates are STEALING our profits from us), yet they point a finger at someone else for taking donations!

  • yosemity

    @5 @Chevron

    You’re forgetting who we’re talking about here. These are OiNK users lol. These are the kids who listen to “bands that don’t even exist yet”

    Not to mention there were 180000 users, and the minimum donation was 5 pounds. so 37,641 users would have had to donate the minimum. That’s only 21 percent of the userbase. That sounds about right.

  • A Non E-Moose

    Why bother doing all this shit, why not just thow him in jail for tax evasion?

    I swear they’re just trying to ‘make an example’ out of him.

  • Bella

    OiNK/Ellis is an example of piracy for profit – lining his pocket – without giving anything back to the artist – greed on his part!

  • Ann Nonn

    This is all based on a prosecution speech. There has not been a single utterance in his defence yet.

    Lets not jump to conclusions just yet – at least the jury will be waiting until the end to consider the evidence properly.

    Trial by media?

  • Nons

    Good luck Alan. We appreciate everything you did? for us. I miss oink! Anybody know what happened to Too Much Time (TMT)?

  • The Bats

    Has anybody stopped to wonder just how “helpful” Paypal may have been in identifying donors?

    I’d be very surprised if they haven’t already fessed up a lot of user ID’s.

  • hmmm @54

    I don’t agree. I don’t make any profit whatsoever when I download music, because it’s just trying and making an opinion out of a product, before buying it. You don’t buy a car on catalog before driving it. You don’t buy a tv set before checking the picture. Etc Etc…
    Why do you refuse to understand that if the only freedom left to citizens is to be consumers, then they do it.
    I suppose that in your view, pure market laws only apply to isolated individuals, and that big companies, since they hate risk taking, just want to be protected. Hence all your inquisitory comments.

    Go to a “culture” supermarket, they don’t offer listening anymore, as they used to some years ago. And independant cd shops who were offering that disappeared.

    I personally own more than 3000 cds, buying 10-30 a month. Some I don’t even unpack, since I already have them on the computer.

    Maybe I’m just an exception, but for the other ones I don’t buy, I wouldn’t buy them anyway, since I don’t buy what I can’t try.

    Now the major issue : is someone really profiting from copying a cd in mp3 format ?
    When I was a teen, I was spending my days copying my friends’ cds/tapes to tapes. Then to cdr.
    Many of my friends only had cdrs, but they were going to concerts. Or replaced the radio with their “illegal” (not immoral) cds.
    We already pay taxes when buying cdrs, hard drives, usb keys. So I guess it’s just fair enough.

    Also, I never buy majors’ stuff. Not my taste. Sorry, it could be harder than you think to ram down all that crap products (errrm. Big labels Artists’ music. Sorry. No offence ;) ) down my throat.

    To conclude, as a file-sharer, I condemn Oink’s admin if he ever made a profit out of it. It would have been easy just to close down donations when servers/bandwidth were paid for each month. If he kept stockpiling donations, then he must be sentenced.
    But that doesn’t mean that filesharing is bad. People who share on emule, soulseek, dc, don’t make a penny from their sharing. They are just helping friends to see/hear stuff they couldn’t see/hear otherly.

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  • Thomas Jefferson

    the bbc were in the police car as they arrested him.
    thats all you need to know….
    the bbc were in the police car as they arrested him.
    the bbc were in the police car as they arrested him.
    the bbc were in the police car as they arrested him.
    the bbc were in the police car as they arrested him.

  • cheggerspop

    The trial will have been opened by the prosecution and it’s their job to paint a picture in the mind of the jury as OiNK/Alan as the bad guy (which seems to have also worked on a few people posting here!?!).

    The defence will then have their opportunity to put forward the case from Alan’s side/perspective.

    The jury will have to be satisfied “beyond reasonable doubt” that Alan and others conspired to defraud others. If all twelve members can’t reach a guilty or not guilty verdict, it would go to a majority decision, which is normally 10/2 and if then still no verdict is reach it would be a hung jury and a re-trial may be required.

    Did Alan set out with the intent of making the music industry lose money or simply to make music more accessible?

    Be making copyright stuff available for free right or wrong, he has been charged with “conspiracy to defraud” and I think that is where the music industry/CPS might have shot themselves in the foot and maybe if he’d been charged with something else, it would have been easier for them to prove categorically.

  • tom

    @75.

    Inviting the media to organised crime busts is common in Britain. It certainly wasn’t just the BBC that were there.

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  • omg

    i hope this gonna be a epic win

  • Reasoned Mind

    @75 Hmmm, you ignored my point entirely. Some might actually say you’ve profited the price you didn’t pay, but I’m not equating a pirated album to a lost sale at all. Forget price for a minute. I’m saying you profited the VALUE, you gained uncompensated value because you didn’t also pay for it, thereby evening the transaction. You profited. Profit is not only money, you know.

    And try before you buy has been discredited for years, if you can’t listen to it legally now, you aren’t trying. The amount of free try-before-you-buy music on the internet is staggering, so there’s no intelligent reason to break the law by infringing anymore.

    But if you keep infringing, at least when your punishment arrives like Ellis you’ll know it was fair because at the very least, you’ve made an informed choice and will live with the consequences. Do you also refuse to eat at restaurants where they won’t allow you to taste a dish before you actually order it?

  • hms-one

    “He hadn’t sung a note, he hadn’t played an instrument, he hadn’t produced anything. The money was not going to the people it rightly belonged to, it was going to Mr Ellis.”

    To prove the ‘conspiracy to defraud’ they have to prove that he deprived them by fraud of money to which they were entitled. How do they figure that donations gleaned for running a tracker/site are owed them, much less owed to musicians. I do not see the connection.

    People made music. Man ran website. Other people share music through website. Some donate to Man for running of website. OK.

    How the HELL do website donations “rightly belong” to anyone but the site admin?

    IF he defrauded donors by making personal profit from money he promised to spend on site administration, the donors may have a case for fraud.

    The industry has no case for fraud as they have no valid claim to website donations. The reason these people are claiming “conspiracy to defraud” is that the definition is vague enough. They know they have no legitimate case, but that wont stop them from prosecuting, and usually, from winning either.

    I fear this case will lead to another horrible legal precedent being set by the music industry.

    Good Luck, Mr. Ellis.

  • anon

    300,000 over the years isnt much with the cost of hosting and this being his job.

  • nobody

    That’s quite a lot of money to be remaining in his account from all those years of collecting donations.

  • hmmm @80

    You seem to be a bit limited on philosophy.

    The value you’re talking about is not limited to single individuals.

    I learn from other people, that gives me value. My choice to create art or not to create art from my learning.
    So a consumer learns when trying an album, the same as an artist uses the “value” he got from others to create one. (I hate this monetary term, and I perfectly understand why you use it, because when this concept is accepted, the concept of defrauding can be introduced.)

    And if I go to a restaurant, and they serve me something uneatable, I can have it changed. In a cd shop, once the wrap is open, I would be said “no, sorry, we don’t know if you didn’t copy your cd, so we won’t refund”.

    I’m not a redneck, try to answer without 4-yo kids arguments.
    On that topic, I won’t be punished. I could be fined or harrassed, but unfair punishments are called abuse.

  • an0n

    “He hadn’t sung a note, he hadn’t played an instrument, he hadn’t produced anything”

    He’s from Milli Vanilli?

  • anon

    lol @ 85. Also he produced his fancy website and he lets people log on and use it. Therefore he deserves donations.

  • Reasoned Mind

    @ 84, hmmm

    when this concept [ of value ] is accepted………

    I have inconvenient news for you, there is no “when” about it and Ellis’s court case is the point. The basic concept of value, and indeed, giving value TO RECEIVE value has been an organizing tenet since the first caveman traded something he made for something he wanted that someone else made. The internet changes distribution, but nothing will change the basis of barter.

    When you take a pilfered copy of a digital product–no matter what it is–you gain the value of its possession while giving nothing in return. You cheat the concept of the barter. That’s why it is against the law. If this is hard for you to comprehend, tell it to the judge when your time comes. The courts will explain to you what any 4 year old kid can understand.

  • hmmm @ 86

    What a pity then, that what I do isn’t illegal in my country…
    I guess your moraly corrupt judges will have to wait.

    Justice doesn’t defend fairness in the USA, that’s not really a news…

    But it shows once again that you only defend the idea of monetary value, not of cultural value.
    I won’t start the argument of capitalistic mythology, I think I know it fairly well because I have always worked in top management environments.
    The method is to scream loud enough until people are convinced it’s the truth, like Bernays or Goebbels used to do.
    So I’ll leave you to your pathetic babbling, because it is obvious you’re just here to repeat the fallacies you are paid to repeat.
    Why wasting your time here anyway ? Go to the house of representatives, with the other hundreds of biased lobbyists and preach your friends with your money.
    The public is wrong, since you decided so. So be it, we’re more and more numerous to be wrong, then.
    Until we’re right, and that will happen, no matter how much money you invest in lobbying. That’s a cheering idea, to say the least :)

  • Anonymous

    There are some errors in logic in the comments.

    1) If money was donated for website and the structure than that seems fine. He work hard to create a system that sustained life of torrents and created a great community. He did what apple was trying to and recently succeeded. (Create an amazing digital library of music.) But they were the first. It looks to me that his case is weak unfortunately because the law allows the music industry to become rich for poor distribution but frowns upon a man that circumvents the system and makes a good distribution system. I think he deserves any money made but I am pro little guy.

    2) Time is money – An old saying but it holds true here too. Alan spent time to set up a system for people to share. The argument that he should not get money for this crazy. You file sharing purist must be to young to know the value of money. Unless you mom still feeds you and gives you a roof you need to make money. I think the what oink and the other torrent sites out there offer is invaluable and private sites offer much more value than public ones because of the membership factor they can enforce rules that force leeches to be good sharers.

    I hope Alan wins but to say he wasn’t aware that people were uploading torrents of music to share through a product that he created and received donations for… well that is a stretch.

  • moo

    I used to buy dozens of CDs every month, thanks to Oink.

    Never bought one since it was shut, and will never pay for a piece of music ever again.

    If he made all that money, i’m glad! he provided a service that nothing legal has ever matched since.

  • alienjoe

    Hi, Here’s how to get yourself a free PS3, iPod, wii or even cash!. Just go to – urfreegifts.com It’s FREE and has been­ researched by the BBC to be absolutely genuine. Simply­ go to the site and select the gift you would like or­ cash if you prefer. For full info and proof its real­ just go to urfreegifts.com

  • Anonymous

    @87

    Obvious troll is obvious.

  • Black Swan

    @91 Obvious Advertiser is Obvious
    OFF TOPIC & PROBABLY A SCAM
    REMOVE

  • Treason in Mind

    @54 by Reasoned Mind
    “But that’s not possible. Even if you totally discount price, a pirate still profits the value of the possession of the music. Value is different from price.
    ..
    It’s all pure profit over what you had before from any angle.”

    Basically RM is afraid that people might actually be exposed to culture and learning without being artificially restricted by how rich they or their family are.

    See, it is his worst nightmare that one day people might actually be able to have access to information and knowledge REGARDLESS of their income and actually be able to even the odds of the eternally widening scissor between rich and poor.

    What an inhuman thing, to wish to profit from knowledge and culture.
    We are are all utter sc*m.

  • Here’s the problem

    There goes the case:
    “It is dishonest for the defendant to act in a way which he knows ordinary people consider dishonest [..]”

    I believe that the majority of any western civilization by now uses P2P.

    That the majority may still feel dishonest about it is for the same reason people used to feel guilty about their sexuality: because forces bent on exploiting them for their obedience were out to have them manipulated so.

    Witness our local trolls as prime examples.

    So assuming just as much honesty will be brought forth about the fact that sharing is part of the human essence, just as sexuality is(what other is consensual sex but sharing each other without asking money in return), then the majority of “ordinary people” cannot feel it is dishonest.

    Therefore, there is no case to be made against (file)sharing.

  • user

    He deserved the donation money in my opinion. The reward for the risk of setting up such a site.

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