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OiNK Was Started to Improve Ellis’s Programming Skills

After the prosecution had their say last week, OiNK founder Alan Ellis told the Court his side of the story today. Ellis denied conspiring to defraud the music industry and explained that he started the tracker to improve his programming skills.

oinkThe OiNK trial has been underway for more than a week now. Although there is virtually no press covering the daily proceedings, it is very clear that there is an immense gap between how the music industry portrays Ellis, and how he sees the role he played on the OiNK website.

From the very beginning, the music industry has pictured the site’s founder as someone who charges users for access to the site, claiming that it was set up to make profits from infringing on the rights of the major record labels.

Its users were criminals who conspired to steal from the music industry for reasons other than the enjoyment of music, music industry groups claimed. “This was not a case of friends sharing music for pleasure,” Jeremy Banks of the IFPI said shortly after the site fell, insinuating that profits were made behind the scenes.

Last week the prosecution in the OiNK trial continued down the same path, pointing out that Ellis had gathered nearly $300,000 from voluntary donations over the years. They made it seem like Ellis was running a profitable business but failed to mention that a large chunk of this money was continuously invested back into the site and its running costs.

No proof was provided that Ellis used any of the donation money to enrich himself. He had the equivalent of $32,500 in several savings accounts at the time of his arrest. Ellis planned to use this money to buy servers for the tracker.

This week Ellis has the chance to start telling the Court his side of the story, and has been detailing how he initially hosted the tracker in his own bedroom when he was studying at Teesside University.

Ellis explained how OiNK began as a pet project with the sole purpose of improving his “outdated” UK honours degree in software engineering. “I didn’t have an intention, I was furthering my skills as a programmer, as a software engineer,” Ellis told Teesside Crown Court today.

Ellis, who was working on the backend of the site to make sure that everything kept running, was merely providing a platform for OiNK’s users to share whatever they wanted. He denied the charges of conspiracy to defraud the music industry.

The case continues.

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  • Britecrawler

    I bet it took countless hours to create OiNK and it was worth every penny of $300k.

  • http://www.eZee.se www.eZee.se

    “No proof was provided that Ellis used any of the donation money to enrich himself.”

    The most important line in the entire article.

    IMHO.

  • Anonymous

    What a joke. I loved OiNK and personally I never would’ve bought any of the cds that I downloaded from the site. No one lost money from me downloading because I didn’t steal any physical item, it’s virtual data that someone took the time to copy. Ofc, this doesn’t apply for everyone but I’m sure it’s the same story for many other people. Record companies need to quit being such butthurt greedy douche bags.

  • Unauthorized Content Consumer

    Oh and uh…yeah.

  • youngdand

    Offtopic,

    Anyone know why iptorrents is down from uk?

  • copywrong

    The UK lawyers are after one thing… MONEY (or donations).

  • theFlamed

    I bet it took countless hours to create OiNK and it was worth every penny of $300k.

    i’m sorry it was running from a pre-created tbsource script now tb-dev the mods and addons he more than likely got from the users and coders of the tb-dev forum.

    as much as i love what he did and created to say he was learning to program and what not i just don’t get everyone is running tbsource/dev trackers all the same just different colors what has css and html have to do with engineering???

  • www.epictorrents.com

    I think and i say this, music the is via p2p should be free and used as a medium to get people to gigs and signup to the bands media site for extra band related material.

    i bet in 100 years people will look at ellis and tpb boys as pioneers.

    i say this because the interent has changed society in such a short space of time. i think the record companies will die and be replaced by myspaces records.

  • ET

    I think and i say this, music the is via p2p should be free and used as a medium to get people to gigs and signup to the bands media site for extra band related material.

    i bet in 100 years people will look at ellis and tpb boys as pioneers.

    i say this because the interent has changed society in such a short space of time. i think the record companies will die and be replaced by myspaces records.

    http://www.epictorrents.com

  • Reasoned Mind

    ” I was furthering my skills as a programmer, as a software engineer.”

    lolol
    Yes, and Charles Manson was merely furthering his studies as a butcher.

    hahahahahaha.

  • SomeGuy

    Bang to rights!! i totally agree! i only started stffing to develop areas in which may later help me out in life… This seems a good move in showing the industry that we are not just pirates looking for a free ride.. althought with some that is the case

  • MissedMemories

    Ehh.. Well, it has a point: The BackEnd of the tracker, this is the tracker itself is a program that can be written on any programming language. So he is in ALL OF HIS RIGHTS as a Software Engineer to say that; even that he didn’t really do it. But can’t be denied since you can’t check his memories.

    HTML/PHP/CSS is just extra knowledge that always helps.

    @10: You’re not Reasoned Mind

  • youngdand

    Troll he maybe but he is rather witty.

  • Quartz

    The saga continues …

  • Anonymous

    Poor guy. Feel really sorry for him – everyone thats reading this knows he’s not going to win really even though he should.

  • Anonymous

    i miss OiNK :(

  • Anonymous

    If instead of doing all the work himself (for free) — had Alan Ellis instead paid for the services of a company to code the site, as well as to host, operate, manage, and maintain the website –for several years– how much would all that have cost him in total?

    Probably a lot more than $300 thousand.

  • Reasoned Mind

    TF: How about an online debate between one of the Pirate Bay boys and Dan Glickman of the MPAA?

    @10 I don’t like others impersonating me, I don’t like being called “Raisin Brain,” nor do I like being referred to as a “troll.” As to my affiliation with the MPAA, that is none of your business.

    I offer a valid alternative viewpoint to the philosophy of theft.

  • Raisin Brain

    @ sock puppet

    You have never offered any valid points in any of you comments! Further more you always get your ass handed to you for your asinine non-provable points!

    Troll/shill/whatever, you bore me!

  • Gargamel

    He better have a better defense then that or he’s fuked.

  • None

    “I offer a valid alternative viewpoint to the philosophy of theft.”

    You clearly offer a logically flawed and biased subjective viewpoint. I can’t help but think you’re either someone trolling knowingly or just stupid enough not to get several definitions and logic in general.

  • Anonymous

    @18

    TF: How about an online debate between one of the Pirate Bay boys and Dan Glickman of the MPAA?

    Would never happen. Dan Glickman would get his ass handed to him, so he would not accept such a challenge.

    I don’t like being called “Raisin Brain,”

    Good to know, Raisin Brain.

    nor do I like being referred to as a “troll.”

    Aww, he doesn’t like his own tactics being used against him! Whenever someone (like me) calls you a troll, think back to all your posts in which you refer to file sharers as “pirates” who “steal.” As such, you are a “shill” who “trolls.” Don’t like being called a troll? I’ll stop calling you one when you stop calling p2p users pirates. (Oh, and when you start posting like a civilized person, who is willing to admit when they’re wrong, misinformed, or caught in the act of spreading FUD. But knowing you, that will never happen.)

    Do you claim you’re not a troll? Prove me wrong. I dare you. Come on!

    As to my affiliation with the MPAA, that is none of your business.

    Right. That’s really going to make people think you’re honestly, really, not paid to troll pro-p2p websites.

    I offer a valid alternative viewpoint to the philosophy of theft.

    Like hell you do. You offer baseless rhetoric and copyright extremism packaged in a provocative, uncompromising package. You have never once contributed honestly to a TF discussion and I am frankly disappointed with TF’s staff for not banning you permanently. Not because of your dissenting opinion- no, sorry, you don’t get to play the “He’s only saying that because I disagree with him” card- but because you are a troll.

    In conclusion, obvious troll is obvious.

  • Seasoned Mango

    by Reasoned Mind

    “I offer a valid alternative viewpoint to the philosophy of theft.”

    I would like to know what that is.

    Did God tell you that “piracy” is wrong? Well I can tell you that The Universe doesn’t give a sh*t whether people are downloading copyrighted content without paying for it or not. The laws that we live by are always subject to change because they are man-made. That also means they could be right or wrong. Nobody knows. Who are YOU to tell anybody who downloads copyrighted material is doing wrong? We’re only human, we are not special, we don’t have any rights. This goes for more than just copyright laws.

    In the end it’s only your pathetic little opinion. One that you cannot prove. And that goes for everybody including me.

  • DefaultUser

    @ReasonedTroll

    why do you even compare a guy involved in p2p technology with a serial killer? How many did the founder of OiNK kill? how many did he physically abused? Did he shot a pregnant women with baby in the belly? Did he *forced* others to follow his sect by brainwashing them?

    You’re an idiot, ReasonedTroll

  • Anonymous

    @18

    no rasin bran boy you have yet to provide any good reason why people should stop sharing and you make it our buisness by coming in here and flapping your jaw mindlessly. if you dont want to be ridiculed then dont be a troll [should be obvious] *slaps rasin bran in the head*

  • Anon

    I would have never been where I am today in regard to my programming or general LAMP skills if i hadn’t started a tracker of my own. Its a great way to learn.

  • Think about it

    @ 18 Jan 13, 2010 at 03:07 by Reasoned Mind

    I’m sorry to inform you that lies are not valid viewpoints. If you can call copyright infringement theft, then I can call your troll post rape. Since rape is a criminal act, you should be locked away.

  • Anonymous

    @Reasoned Mind

    Do you get it yet? TorrentFreak is sick of you. Go away.

  • john

    no offense to the guy but that’s a pretty lame excuse, does he have lawyers ? that sounds like a dumb thing to say.

    that’s like a drug dealer saying he was just selling drugs to improve his people skills. doesn’t change the fact that he comitted a crime though.

    I think he might be better served just keeping his mouth shut, he’s probably not helping himself by admitting he worked on/owned/started the website.

  • john

    just to clarify…i don’t doubt at all that he was trying to improve his programming skills.

    just saying it’s a dumb excuse to try to use to not get convicted, he basically is saying “yeah i broke the law but it was to help myself.”

    plenty of ways to hone your programming skills without doing something you know is illegal.

    best of luck to him though, hopefully they go easy on him.

  • jpayne10

    even if the site is based on a pre-made bit of software, editing it to his need, then running a tracker is no mean feat. even if it was,im sure that most of you here have never seen programing langs. short of your little myspace HTML tags or maybe some bbcode. Learn to code before you speak against one who may or may not be learning himself.

    http://mongo56.co.cc

  • \\.neo.styles|sSG

    Even if not a lot of this money went to himself (come on, does it really cost 300,000 to pay for a couple of servers?), it still stands to reason that the infringement promoted from the site earned money and allowed the site to continue promoting infringement. The site payed for itself. Alan Ellis didn’t even pay out of his own pocket to support the sites illegal activities.

  • Chris Farley

    oink oink

  • General Snus

    @13 agreed, it was witty, I laughed out loud when I read it!

    I rarely pay attention to the name of people who post comments tho, I just skim thru the acutal content, but I’m personally getting annoyed with all the posts that end with the same thing about reasoned mind/neo troll something blah blah.

    who cares what people post in comments, you dont have to read them if you dont want to, and if reading something by someone with a different opinion than you annoys you, then dont read comments. Or deal with them, cuz thats life.

  • prodigydancer

    @28/Anonymous

    Do you get it yet? You’ve just fed the troll.
    /facepalm

  • anon

    i call bs on ellis

  • Anonymous

    Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions, but personally attacking someone who doesn’t agree with you makes you look rather childish… it lowers us down to the intellectual level of what we are being called. That is not the way to bring about change and reform.
    This is coming from a heavy p2p user.

  • cookieeaterz

    I eat cookies, K?

    Oh, yeah – <3 ellis <3

  • Anonymous

    TeeHee

  • Anonymous

    Very nice article! Very informing.

    Hostname to IP Address Conversion

  • Freedom.Fighter

    @32 neo

    If the site paid for itself then Ellis is even less culpable, as he was not solely responsible for it’s continued existence and there cannot be held solely responsible for actions that took place there. I have to say also that site mantainance over the period of time could easily have cost 300k between repairs, upgrades, and ip bandwidth cost.

    I do have to agree that learning to code isn’t exactly a strong defense, I hope he manages to come up with something more appealing to the court.

    @2
    Agreed, the fact the he made no money from it is of extreme importance to getting out from under the “Conspiracy to Defraud the Industry” charge. If he didn’t make money he didn’t take money.

  • Think about it

    @ 34 Jan 13, 2010 at 06:29 by General Snus

    Then why not take your own advice?

  • Think about it

    Since so many here seem to have the inability to grasp basic concepts, let me help.

    Lies are not opinions.

    Fact: Copyright infringement is not theft (if it so happens to be in your county, please post a link to it, as it is not in the UK, France, Spain, Sweden, or the U.S.)

    Now if someone actually believes a lie, then they may very well have a Raisin Brain. If someone keeps spreading the lie yet knows better then they are a troll (Reasoned or otherwise).

    Now if someone thinks that trials are held only after guilt has been determined they may very well be a neo.troll

    Opinions read as follows, “I believe Oink was engaging in copyright infringement.” Not, “What they were doing was illegal.” By stating the latter one presupposes that the court has actually ruled against them which means the trial is over. If the trial is not over then the statement is currently a lie as it has not been established by a court.

    For those still confused I will summarize:

    Lies are not opinions.

  • Quartz

    @30 This is a UK court not a US one please explain what law was being broken

    Encouraging infringement/secondary copyright infringement are not actual offences in the UK from my reading of the statues so what book are you reading from ?

  • TerribleTony

    He’s not culpable, if he is, then the developers of bittorrent itself are culpable too.

  • TerribleTony

    In regard of Reasoned Mind, it wouldn’t surprise if he had has come from the Laegue of Reason forums, which is full of militant athiests who think they know everything because they sussed out there is no god and are really pissed about it.

  • DefaultUser

    @46

    hahaha, thanks a lot. Really had to laugh at that and how you formulated it :D

  • Rboy

    Bullets and guns encourage murder but they are legal. I am so fuking sick of trolls calling downloading stealing. It has never been theft and copyright infringement only occurs if there is distribution with intent to profit. Facilitating distribution is not distribution.

    In my opinion at sometime in the future copyrights will not exist in the form they do. Intelligent and enlightened societies do not hoard culture and ideas and knowledge. Capitalism encourages greed and greed leads to raping the worlds resources which won’t last forever.

  • Unauthorized Content Consumer

    Privacy is a right, not a privilege.

  • TBDEV

    @7

    Shut up fool! OiNK was a respected coder on tbsource/tbdev and written his fair share of mods along with other coders. And if you think OiNK was run using just mods found on tbsource/tbdev then your more of a fool than I give you credit for.

  • Whatever

    The defense really needs to start spell it out to the jury there or they will lose (Its not like they will think for themselves). They really need to show the jury that what they have been told are lies and false accusations.

    Its already proven by the comments here that starting a tracker to learn programming is associated with admitting breaking the law.

    Telling that users made money from the site by sharing is something where proof should be demanded and how it is possible to profit from giving bandwidth. Also what else can you do with music except enjoy it or not. Maybe music can be used as a weapon by terrorists to down a plane or something.

    Ok, in Guantanamo Bay they did use music for something else than enjoyment. Did they pay copyright for playing “torture music” there ? :-)

  • stuffies

    OiNK got pwned!!!

    Stealing £300K from donations, rot in jail homo.

  • Sketchhead

    It’s interesting to see how and whether this case will be used as a precedent in the future.

    Some might say that it doesn’t really matter, as the demise of OiNK spawned off a multitude of better sites, but there will surely be an effect on the future handling of these cases.

    Either way, I have a feeling that regardless of the result of this case, the losing side is going to appeal. However, due to this being a jury trial, you can bet good money on the jury not actually understanding most of the matter and being conditioned into submission to alleged authority, they will go with the prosecutor. This means that Alan Ellis is the one who will have to appeal, which requires much more of an investment on his part, but most of all will create a huge media hype, tricking people into thinking that Alan Ellis actually got rich from OiNK.

    The prosecution is not at all interested in winning this case for financial gain, since there is no way they can redeem any cash at all. All they want to do is damage Alan Ellis and torrent sites in general as much as they can. Basically, they want to take him as an example and make his life as miserable as possible, in order to scare away others.

    It has nothing to do with money, that’s just a short-term variable. It has to do with the statics of power.

  • A. Copier

    An obvious act of desperation, but he will still fry, regardless. The agenda is already set, and it does not and will not matter what excuses are raised in an attempt to justify the act. The system’s intent is to have all sites and services shut down in due time (that is the objective anyway) and it will not matter one bit what you say about that. They will continue to conjure ways to have them forced offline, regardless.

    Ellis is fried. All that fall into the hands of the system will be. You will not beat them by playing their game. Allow the system to get its claws into you and you will lose to its will. This does not mean they will ever stop file-sharing, they won’t, but in their efforts to do so, all that are captured by them will pay a heavy price.

    It’s about business, it’s about control, it’s about power. Ellis’ efforts are worthless in the face of this.

  • betterthanyou

    @9 CSS is actually huge now-a-days. It is true CSS will not do the core actions of a full written app, but it can take that application & make it beautiful. Look at Firefox! I can go to userstyles.org & find tons of code just for modifying Firefox’s interface. Anything that uses the Gecko engine is going to rely heavily on html/xml, css, javascript & DOM. And web-design itself is a form of programming/engineering. I’ve seen guts that know C++ backwards & forwards, but couldn’t write a line of css or javascript. So it really just depends what area he’s going for…

  • ServerBill

    It’s that time of the month again. Double credit, double upload! Your time is running out. Press Donate to help our community!

    “$300,000 from voluntary donations”

    fuck these trackers

  • M-RES

    @29 & 30 : John… the fatal flaw in your argument is that in the UK he hasn’t committed a criminal offence, ergo he’s not a criminal, neither were any of his actions crimes.

    Copyright infringement, which he wasn’t directly involved with (merely its facilitation – which it could be argued any web browser vendor does) is at best a civil offence, thus unlawful NOT illegal.

    Only when the copyright infringement is for direct monetary gain does it become a criminal offence (thus illegal) and it is known as counterfeiting. It’s a quite separate issue and a quite separate set of laws governing it.

    Don’t be taken in by the industry’s and media’s misinformation campaigns designed to cloud this issue and blur the quite clear distinction. Think outside of the careful media framing of the discussion – every time they say ‘illegal downloading’, say to yourself, “it’s NOT illegal, it’s merely unlawful” and by reminding yourself of this FACT you will avoid the ignorance of the propagandised (I’m looking at Reasoned Mind when I say that!).

  • obviously RM is a troll

    Obviously Reasoned Mind is a troll.

    @Reasoned Mind.

    If you have anything of value you’re opinion will respected.

    You copyrightist think obtaining copyright material without paying for it is a more heinous crime than murder. You lot have a twisted mind. Money and greed is your driving force.

    The industry is ripping off the authors, musicians, artists, actors, etc. They’re the real criminals. The hard working individuals are the ones that should be getting what they worked for, not the middleman.

    Internet will not decline or disappear, it will expand ever greater than now and will get faster, no doubt.

    The thing that will disappear is the industry. Sure, some will appear in the future, but a lot more will go bankrupt. Accept it and move on.

    Obvious troll is obvious.

  • Reasoned Mind

    You are hilarious, all of you, the poster at #18 is not me and the admins here know that, because they can see the email addresses of the posters and they know my Reasoned Mind email as well. I have no affiliations with any professional organizations, and your belief that I’d need to be paid to wind you up reveals a lot about you.

    You are just getting your crank twisted by another poser. Obvious fools here are obvious.
    It’s certainly entertaining.
    lol

  • lol

    Nice try troll.

    Obvious troll is obvious.

  • lol

    Even if poster #18 or #56 is Reasoned Mind, who cares?

    email addresses? What you talking about? Now you’re (or your impersonator is) technically incompetent?

    No affiliations with any professional organisations, yeah right!

    Obvious troll is obvious.

  • ben ben

    People still not seeing the hole picture.

    The online forum discussing thing that we do is good for sharing ideas, but nothing more. We will keep loosing in court rooms because they have the money, the judges and the politicians are already paid and unless we go for the head of the snake we will be on the run for a long time.

    All it takes is for p2p users everywhere to unite. There are about 450 million p2p users on this planet, that is more than the population of the U.S.A, Mexico and Canada combined. Lets take to the streets and demand a truly open internet and abolishment of any copyright laws pertaining to intellectual rights.

  • Anonymous

    I joined a tracker’s admin team about 12 months after it started, in the 2 years following that there’s no way it’s anything like the original code and no chance of using the original developers updates and enhancements.
    generic trackers were fine up to a point, then you tweak here modify there and before you know it you’ve morphed into something completely different but looking slightly different from the original starting point.

    I’m not sure of running costs on OINK but we had server costs > $5k a month, over 36 months that’s a massive $180k for 30k users and is a lot of money to find each month.

  • horsemeat

    Some people here have no idea what oink was about, I was a member and had full access without donating anything.

    It was totally optional and did not give you any credit, I think all it gave you was a star or something next to your name.

    He should of sold t-shirts instead like TBP then, or would that also be profiting from piracy.

    I wasn’t aware profiting from donations was illegal anyway so he is not buggered at all.

  • lol!

    @59 Newbie. You don’t need an email address to post. Lol! If you’re going to try to be a fake, try a little harder next time, like don’t make any obvious gaffs!

  • Traum

    Very nice article! Very informing, but trials take for ever… months or years!?

    off topic

    I like Raisin Brain Troll. He makes my life better when I understand that I´m not stupid. Reason Nice

  • lol

    I too like Raisin Brain Troll. I like to laugh at him

    Obvious troll is obvious.

  • Unauthorized Content Consumer

    Piracy is a right, not a privilege. xD

  • Trelew

    Sad to say the corporate powers-that-be will not be happy that they have hoisted every internet provider, file sharing site staff, or file sharers themselves on a pike to prove their superiority over us all. Doesn’t matter to them that they have corrupted the principals of government around the world, or tarnished the integrity of our courts by putting on “show trials” like this. Cause to them power and greed is all they are about and if they have trample on all that to do it, so be it.

    I used to get annoyed at little trolls like Reasoned Mind and Neo Styles but all they are is pain little minions of Big Business. They are just earning a pay cheque to spout the corporate agenda and troll all sites like this. They offer no real debate as they spew nothing but corporate propaganda which has been proven wrong time and time again.

    The real problem is not just corporations running rampant over people that file share online; but the corruption and control they have over governments around the world.

  • United

    @ Trelew
    Spot on bro!

    The obvious trolls (aka Reasoned Mind and Neo Styles) are propaganda machines. They can troll all they want but no one here and elsewhere listen to their babble. They think they make sense, but from a neutral point of view they sound pathetic.

    Obvious troll are obvious.

  • @23

    @23 Couldnt of said it better….

    ::GolfClap::

  • Anonymous

    @59

    You are hilarious, all of you, the poster at #18 is not me and the admins here know that, because they can see the email addresses of the posters

    Look down at the bottom. Where you post comments. The two fields: “Name” and the comment itself. Do you see an area to enter an email address? Yeah, I didn’t think so, troll.

    I have no affiliations with any professional organizations

    So then you’d just be a regular old forum troll instead of a paid industry shill troll?

    and your belief that I’d need to be paid to wind you up reveals a lot about you.

    Like what, Raisin Brain? That we don’t believe that people will troll for fun? Well, I’m perfectly willing to accept that possibility about you.

    Obvious troll is obvious.

    @68

    I used to get annoyed at little trolls like Reasoned Mind and Neo Styles but all they are is pain little minions of Big Business. They are just earning a pay cheque to spout the corporate agenda and troll all sites like this. They offer no real debate as they spew nothing but corporate propaganda which has been proven wrong time and time again.

    +1

    Why doesn’t TorrentFreak ban these morons?

  • Anonymous

    Why doesn’t TorrentFreak ban these morons?

    A question I have asked many times. He does not just post his drivel here, but on other sites as well. Try a google search for “reasoned mind” and you will find him on any site dealing with p2p. He goes by ‘Sam I Am’ on p2pnet.net.

    If he is just a troll, then ignore him, but due to his posting on many other p2p forums makes me believe he is a paid industry shill. Frankly if they are paying him to do this, they are just wasting more money because he is the description of fail! I say let them because it will hasten their ultimate demise.

  • Anonymous

    “Ellis conspired to defraud the music industry”

    We will know if the judge is corrupted or not once he accept or reject this lie for the corporation of parasites and terrorists.

    meanwhile we are preparing the extermination of such corporations.

  • Ninja

    Well, the conspiracy thing is a pretty funny joke but adding that the users of the site downloaded/uploaded with the sole reason of harming the music industry is just too much for my lungs. I mean, yeah, we download music because we wanna get it into pen drives and stick in our @$$es.

    Gimme a break. Yea, there might be some people that got the song from oink and sold on the streets for money but get a grip MAFIAA, conspiracy? You are the one digging your own grave by chasing those people that did nothing against you.

    And the guy got 300k in donations? Wow, he is more loved than you – how much have you ever got DONATED for your services? Nothing? I guess it’s pretty obvious why. Also, is he using all the money for himself? Considering he’s programming and maintaining the site a small amount could go to him as a paycheck… Please, get evidence b4 claiming stuff…

    It’s another classic case where MAFIAA will lose even if they win. Your victory is ours MAFIAA, every time you get innocents to the court you lose thousands of consumers. Fail.

  • neostyles

    Uhm, and he couldn’t find legal ways to improve his programming skills? This exemplifies the absurdity of file sharing arguments.

    Like what, Raisin Brain? That we don’t believe that people will troll for fun? Well, I’m perfectly willing to accept that possibility about you.

    Wow, you’re arrogance apparantly has zero limits.. Apparantly, who believes in living an honest life and not ripping off artists and instead supporting them is only doing so because they are being paid off..? Has it ever occurred to you that some people WANT to do the right thing? Do you have the slightest idea what a moral principle is? No, of course you don’t. You believe that it is your right to exploit people.

    You’re really not in much of a position to act superior. You rip people off for fun.

    I used to get annoyed at little trolls like Reasoned Mind and Neo Styles but all they are is pain little minions of Big Business. They are just earning a pay cheque to spout the corporate agenda and troll all sites like this. They offer no real debate as they spew nothing but corporate propaganda which has been proven wrong time and time again.

    The only one who offers no real debate is you. When confronted with a point of view that is different from your own, you immediately resort to going “you’re a troll” or “you’re being paid off by the industry.” FYI, merely saying that we have been proved wrong doesn’t make it so. You haven’t provided any argument at all. All you have done is accuse people of being associated with the RIAA or MPAA. This is because you have no argument. What has been proved wrong time and time again are the arguments you and people like you subscribe to.

  • Anonymous

    @72

    Agree with all you’ve said. One thing to add: I’m heartened by the amount of anti-Reasoned Mind posts in this thread. Maybe if enough people express their dissatisfaction, TF’s staff will actually do something about it.

  • Anonymous

    If he actually added anything of value or interest it would be ok, I enjoy a good debate as much as the next person. But with him its just “pirates are thieves, file sharing is stealing, draconian government control caused by thieves, blah blah blah, ad nausium. Enough is enough, obvious troll is obvious.

    I have also noticed new posts from people(that I won’t mention yet)that sound very much like his same drivel. I need to check the archives to be sure but will post when I am convinced.

  • DurrHurrHurr

    “FYI, merely saying that we have been proved wrong doesn’t make it so.”
    “What has been proved wrong time and time again are the arguments you and people like you subscribe to.”

    Derp.

  • Apocalypse Now!

    Johnny Derp?

  • Think about it

    @ 76 Jan 13, 2010 at 21:53 by neostyles

    Point: neostyles is illiterate.

    Proof: ‘That we don’t believe that people will troll for fun? Well, I’m perfectly willing to accept that possibility about you.’ implies that they believe Raisin Brain would troll for fun and not money. Yet you write, ‘Apparantly, who believes in living an honest life and not ripping off artists and instead supporting them is only doing so because they are being paid off..?’

    FYI : fun does not mean money.

    Lies are not ‘a point of view different from my own’. They are lies – A point that cannot be viewed from any angle as they are neither true nor possible.

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  • Anonymous

    Woah, it’s neotroll! Sure, I’m up for some fun.

    This exemplifies the absurdity of file sharing arguments.

    Classic neo! Ladies and gentlemen, watch him open his post by setting his usual precedent for his trolling: overly sweeping generalizations that lump millions of different people, with different actions, motives and beliefs, into a single stereotype: “Pirates are thieves.” An utterly smashing nearly successful tactic!

    Apparantly, who believes in living an honest life and not ripping off artists and instead supporting them is only doing so because they are being paid off..?

    See that, sports fans? Neo is being classic neo! Not only is he using unfounded generalizations to attack people, but he bravely sides with the heroic entertainment industry in its fight against the evul pirates. Truly a show of courage! I don’t even think he flinches when confronted with the fact that those industries he defends have done far more to rip off artists than file sharers ever could, through decades of abusive contracts and even outright theft!

    Has it ever occurred to you that some people WANT to do the right thing? Do you have the slightest idea what a moral principle is? No, of course you don’t. You believe that it is your right to exploit people.

    Well, there’s not much new here, folks. Historically neo has adhered to a fairly narrow selection of tactics in order to find content for his trolling posts. Accusing sharers of having no morals is one of his old favorites, and it’s astounding that he chooses to use it even after having been told that morals are a subjective thing and that people believe in different things. That won’t stop him from dictating to others what he thinks is right, however.

    The only one who offers no real debate is you. When confronted with a point of view that is different from your own, you immediately resort to going “you’re a troll” or “you’re being paid off by the industry.”

    Okay, enough of the commentary crap. Now you’re just an idiot.

    Do you really think that the accusations of trolling are baseless? Even when the basis behind Reasoned Mind’s trolling was already demonstrated earlier? But no, it doesn’t matter to you whether someone makes an argument. You’ll just ignore it! Can’t have somebody else’s insight ruining your trolling fun, after all. No, neo, for you it’s completely ignoring what others say aside from what might possibly help you parrot the same crap over and over and over and over.

    FYI, merely saying that we have been proved wrong doesn’t make it so.

    It does when dozens of people throw your own words back into your face and you just happily pretend they didn’t. Don’t you ever read the replies to your bullshit? People don’t just “say” you’re proven wrong. They do it.

    All you have done is accuse people of being associated with the RIAA or MPAA. This is because you have no argument.

    You asked for it.

    What was once a happy balance between artists and the general public, in which there were clear benefits to be had by both sides, has, in the digital and post-industrial age, become a stumbling block to creation and innovation, a silencer of free speech, and a great tool for large corporations to use against the general public for their own profit. Our lawmakers’ responses to new technology over the past century, with regards to copyright modification, have been exactly the opposite of what we as a civilization have needed. We no longer have guarantees of a rich public domain, not with the ever-increasing copyright terms. We no longer have fair use- the DMCA took care of that in the US, and ACTA threatens to extend that to many other nations worldwide. We do not have access to the remix/mashup culture that we should have considering that we have the Internet. Right of first sale is being taken away. As consumers, as producers, and as human beings, our rights are being stripped away from us for the benefit of large corporations who can profit from it.

    Instead we have a culture of lawsuits, of unfair harassment by large corporations against individuals (because, you know, single mothers can totally stand up to the legal power and deep pockets of a big corp… yeah, totally fair playing field there!), increasing control over “intellectual property,” the total commercialization of art, and an attempted return to the “golden years” of complete control over every aspect of culture and the days of passive consumption of media as opposed to active creation.

    Let me make this perfectly clear. If you give a big company a way to make money that is either legal or illegal but they have a low risk of getting caught, they will do it. For Big Content, that includes lobbying and bribing Congress to get stronger IP laws, which have been demonstrated to be at the detriment of the public but to the benefit of Big Content. There was one motive behind the Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998: More money for rights holders. And it passed despite the obvious harm it has been doing to our culture. Name one other possible benefit to the Sonny Bono act that justifies the retroactive (!!!) extension of copyright by 20 years. Name ONE, neo.

    There is something you either don’t get or do understand but ignore because you’re a troll. The large corporations you defend… they’re acting on laws that have long overstayed their welcome. It is not the “pirates” that need to change. There is plenty of activity that’s considered “piracy” that is totally fair. Did you know that you’re infringing copyright when you download a work that nobody has made commercially available in years (so you cannot buy it anywhere)? Where’s the harm? You can’t buy it! Yet this is illegal, and unreasonably so. When facing revolutionary new technology, the correct response is to move with it and adapt to the changing world, not try to make the changing world adapt to you. Who the hell does the MAFIAA think they are to dictate to everyone else how things will be done? Oh, wait… that sounds exactly like you, neo!

    Now about the trolling. You and Reasoned Mind, assuming you aren’t just the same person, are trolls. That is my assertion. I back this argument up here. It was written for Reasoned Mind, but a great deal of it applies to you as well. If you want to contest the assertion that you’re just a troll, go ahead and post a rebuttal to the statements in that link. Or you could just ignore it and prove to everyone that you are a troll.

    What has been proved wrong time and time again are the arguments you and people like you subscribe to.

    So prove me wrong, neo. I dare you. Bring it.

    Or just ignore my logical arguments. Troll.

  • wf

    If it wasn’t for ReasonedMind and neo.styles, the comment section of TF would be a boring echo chamber.

    Some might call them “troll” but IMHO posts from ReasonedMind and neo.styles are often slightly higher calibre than flame bait.

    Participation and debate should be encouraged. Insults just intimidate the opposition into withdraw.

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  • \\.neo.styles|sSG

    Woah, it’s neotroll! Sure, I’m up for some fun.

    Classic pirate! Ladies and Gentlemen, watch him open up his argument by using a personal attack to compensate for his nonexistent argument!

    Seriously though, I have consistently seen this from all people who support “filesharing” you resort to name calling all the time. Look at how much trouble people have calling Reasoned Mind by his actual name.

    See that, sports fans? Neo is being classic neo! Not only is he using unfounded generalizations to attack people, but he bravely sides with the heroic entertainment industry in its fight against the evul pirates. Truly a show of courage! I don’t even think he flinches when confronted with the fact that those industries he defends have done far more to rip off artists than file sharers ever could, through decades of abusive contracts and even outright theft!

    Wow, you really have not been paying attention, have you? People claim that me and anyone else who doesn’t support piracy is only speaking out against it because they are supposidly being paid to do so by the music industry. You never complained about “unfounded” when you saw those dumb statements did you? Hmm.. I wonder why..?

    Despite the way you choose to dramatize things, this is essentially it. The record company and the artists own the music. You are taking it it without permission? How is this not stealing? Whether you think that this makes piracy “evul” is up to you..

    So when the record labels (who help the bands more than you or any pirate ever will) uses a track with authorization it’s theft, but when you do it, it’s not? Nice contradiction.

    Please do some searching next time before you go spouting off.

    Well, there’s not much new here, folks. Historically neo has adhered to a fairly narrow selection of tactics in order to find content for his trolling posts. Accusing sharers of having no morals is one of his old favorites, and it’s astounding that he chooses to use it even after having been told that morals are a subjective thing and that people believe in different things. That won’t stop him from dictating to others what he thinks is right, however.

    I don’t want it to be wrong so it isn’t! That’s just like saying “some people believe that bank robbery is wrong and some people do, so it’s okay if you go rob a bank.” Taking what isn’t yours isn’t something that differs from person to person. Everyone learns from the time they are little, that taking other people’s things is immoral.

    How does someone who exploits other people recreationally have any morals? You statements defy common sense.

    Do you really think that the accusations of trolling are baseless? Even when the basis behind Reasoned Mind’s trolling was already demonstrated earlier? But no, it doesn’t matter to you whether someone makes an argument. You’ll just ignore it! Can’t have somebody else’s insight ruining your trolling fun, after all. No, neo, for you it’s completely ignoring what others say aside from what might possibly help you parrot the same crap over and over and over and over.</blockquote?
    People who take what isn't theirs, without permission are theives. Look it up in the dictionary. It's very, very simple.

    And you aren't? Time and time again, people bring points of view that differ from your own and all you do is chant "troll" over and over again. Probably the most disingenuous thing you could do. You aren't responding to people's posts. You're just calling them names which doesn't help your case at all.

    Isn't it time you paid better attention to the links you yourself post. In the above link you have several examples of petty name calling. For example, people call Reasoned Mind Raisin Brain. Is this the brilliant demolishing of anti filesharing arguments you repeatedly refer to..? This is only because they have no actual argument.

    Besides, in your link Reasoned Mind is completely misrepresented. No one is against all downloading. We are against illegal downloading. Downloading of material that people depend on to make living (something which is evidently like an alien language to you.)

    It does when dozens of people throw your own words back into your face and you just happily pretend they didn’t. Don’t you ever read the replies to your bullshit? People don’t just “say” you’re proven wrong. They do it.

    I hate to break it to you, but calling someone a “troll” doesn’t count as brilliantly refuting someone’s arguement.

    What was once a happy balance between artists and the general public, in which there were clear benefits to be had by both sides, has, in the digital and post-industrial age, become a stumbling block to creation and innovation, a silencer of free speech, and a great tool for large corporations to use against the general public for their own profit. Our lawmakers’ responses to new technology over the past century, with regards to copyright modification, have been exactly the opposite of what we as a civilization have needed. We no longer have guarantees of a rich public domain, not with the ever-increasing copyright terms. We no longer have fair use- the DMCA took care of that in the US, and ACTA threatens to extend that to many other nations worldwide. We do not have access to the remix/mashup culture that we should have considering that we have the Internet. Right of first sale is being taken away. As consumers, as producers, and as human beings, our rights are being stripped away from us for the benefit of large corporations who can profit from it.

    It almost hurts how poorly thought out this drivel is. It comes through in literally the first 5 seconds.

    OK, so, you’re talking about a balance between artists and the general public and you propse that everyone get’s this for free and artists receive nothing in return for their work? Clap clap clap. Brilliant. Im impressed.

    You got it wrong. Before it WAS balanced. People payed for things and people enjoyed the hard work of artists. Illegal file sharing upset the balance by thumbing their noses at copyright holders.

    Next, let’s adress the part about innovation. How much incentive would someone have to create a good product if they know that people are just going to exploit them and pay them nothing for their work. But of course you wont understand since you have probably never had to work to earn money.

    What you call public domain is OTHER PEOPLES WORK. You are NOT entitled to it by default. We don’t live in a communist society where everyone get’s paid the same. This is America, where people have the opportunity to become rich if they work hard enough. One of the most treasured principles of American society is people working hard to profit from their work. Piracy, being the beacon of communism it is, walks all over it by denying people the fruits of their hard work.

    So, what are you waiting for.. this is America. When people have a problem with the way things are going, they write to their representative. Send em a letter about how your right to have everything for free is being violated. Im sure many people will want to support your cause of entitlement.

    Instead we have a culture of lawsuits, of unfair harassment by large corporations against individuals (because, you know, single mothers can totally stand up to the legal power and deep pockets of a big corp… yeah, totally fair playing field there!), increasing control over “intellectual property,” the total commercialization of art, and an attempted return to the “golden years” of complete control over every aspect of culture and the days of passive consumption of media as opposed to active creation.

    So lawsuits should only happen when they are “fair”? Do you think a person who draws graffiti on the side of a building can stand up the deep pockets of company that owns that building? So you think that they should just ignore it when their building is vandalized?

    Where is the artist in all this? Why don’t you ever touch on how the artist/creators are affected when people weasel out of paying them for their work, hm?

    You think being expected to pay for things is “complete control”? Wow, so I guess we can add laziness to the list too? By the same token, do you also think that the government is “completely controlling” you when they tell you that you have to pay taxes and follow driving rules?

    Let me make this perfectly clear. If you give a big company a way to make money that is either legal or illegal but they have a low risk of getting caught, they will do it. For Big Content, that includes lobbying and bribing Congress to get stronger IP laws, which have been demonstrated to be at the detriment of the public but to the benefit of Big Content. There was one motive behind the Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998: More money for rights holders. And it passed despite the obvious harm it has been doing to our culture. Name one other possible benefit to the Sonny Bono act that justifies the retroactive (!!!) extension of copyright by 20 years. Name ONE, neo.

    Uhm, how about… It’s not your work and you don’t get to decide what to do with it. You don’t want them to decide how copyright affects their own work but you have decided that copyrights should expire so people’s own work is no longer under their control? I want my neighbors TV!

    There is something you either don’t get or do understand but ignore because you’re a troll. The large corporations you defend… they’re acting on laws that have long overstayed their welcome. It is not the “pirates” that need to change. There is plenty of activity that’s considered “piracy” that is totally fair. Did you know that you’re infringing copyright when you download a work that nobody has made commercially available in years (so you cannot buy it anywhere)? Where’s the harm? You can’t buy it! Yet this is illegal, and unreasonably so. When facing revolutionary new technology, the correct response is to move with it and adapt to the changing world, not try to make the changing world adapt to you. Who the hell does the MAFIAA think they are to dictate to everyone else how things will be done? Oh, wait… that sounds exactly like you, neo!

    Here we go again.. the “outdated business model” fail arguement again. So, you tell me, how should they change? Start handing out their work for free. Give me some hard evidence that supports a different business model that results in profit for the artist. Paying for things is the only logical solution that rewards people for their hard work. The only. Let me guess, you are going to suggest pay pal donations? Calling piracy “revolutionary new technology” is just like calling pedophilia a lifestyle choice. This “new technology” is just a tool to defraud rights holders. That would be like a person who was just robbed going “wow, look at that new card that they’re getting away in! It’s so high tech!”

    Now about the trolling. You and Reasoned Mind, assuming you aren’t just the same person, are trolls. That is my assertion. I back this argument up here. It was written for Reasoned Mind, but a great deal of it applies to you as well. If you want to contest the assertion that you’re just a troll, go ahead and post a rebuttal to the statements in that link. Or you could just ignore it and prove to everyone that you are a troll.

    In responce to your link.. I think it’s really time we step out of dream land :
    1) CDs and other physical media are no different than digital versions. In case you haven’t realized, Itunes is selling legal movie downloads and I don’t think that anyone would say that they have no value since tons of people are buying them.
    2) No one is against all download, just illegal downloading. What gave you that idea?
    3) Logical fallacy : Reasoned Mind is a troll just because you are automatically right and if he doesn’t see it that way, he must be a troll. The idea that YOU are wrong has never occured to you.

    In the end, your long winded defense did little. All you talked about are people’s “rights”. What about the the rights of the creators? Do you think they are your slaves who you can abuse however you see fit?

    You still fail to bring up a good reason as to why you are entitled to what is not yours.

  • Mr. Briggs

    As to my affiliation with the MPAA, that is none of your business.

    But it is all our business. People on TorrentFreak have a tendency to not believe people who are from the MPAA.

    Not to mention, you said once before that you were explicitly not from the MPAA. Have you gotten more secretive since then?

  • The Paymaster…

    They are getting paid per word for their posts.

    Gotta do something with that billion from Avatar…

  • Think about it

    @ 84 Jan 14, 2010 at 05:46 by \\.neo.styles|sSG

    Tip: you should stop posting until you can learn the language. Maybe I can’t do little quote boxes but one thing is certain:

    ‘You are taking it it without permission? How is this not stealing?’

    It is not stealing because it is defined as copyright infringement. Rape involves taking without permission, but no one has ever been convicted for stealing p***y. Door-to-door salesmen take up your time without permission, that’s not stealing. The goverment taxes you all the time without your permission (well, that might not be a good example). The point is it does not meet the definition of stealing.

    Another:

    ‘So when the record labels (who help the bands more than you or any pirate ever will) uses a track with authorization it’s theft’

    Once again you failed to read. The incident referenced was using unlicensed tracks without paying royalties when a compilation sold for profit. And legally, it’s still copyright infringement (criminal, though).

    ‘Please do some searching next time before you go spouting off.’

    Exactly

    Finally since no one has the time to point out everywhere you are just completely wrong:

    ‘What you call public domain is OTHER PEOPLES WORK. You are NOT entitled to it by default.’

    That is the definition of public domain, you idiot!!!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain

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  • Ace Hall

    For starters try typing your comments in something that has spell check and then copy/paste in the post box, because your posts sound like something a 12 year old would type. It does not help your questionable arguments.

    People claim that me and anyone else who doesn’t support piracy is only speaking out against it because they are supposidly being paid to do so by the music industry. You never complained about “unfounded” when you saw those dumb statements did you? Hmm.. I wonder why..?

    I don’t even know what your trying to saying here???? Definitely poor speaking/writing skills, your teachers should be fired!

    The record company and the artists own the music.

    Yes, the record company does but not the artist, they get ‘pirated’ see here…
    http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3i418c5bc24c7b68c55ff2356aef63ae05
    and here…
    http://torrentfreak.com/sony-music-office-raided-090907/

    You are taking it it without permission?

    Try these links for who takes and profits from without permission…
    http://torrentfreak.com/record-labels-face-60-billion-damages-for-pirating-artists-091207/

    and here…
    http://slashdot.org/articles/07/04/29/0335224.shtml

    and here…
    http://torrentfreak.com/pirated-by-itunes-artist-turns-to-bittorrent-080206/

    So when the record labels (who help the bands more than you or any pirate ever will) uses a track with authorization it’s theft, but when you do it, it’s not? Nice contradiction.

    See here for how the record labels are ‘helping’ themselves to profits that once belonged to the artist.
    http://musicians.about.com/od/ah/g/360deals.htm

    People who take what isn’t theirs, without permission are theives. Look it up in the dictionary. It’s very, very simple.

    Some definitions of copyright infringement and theft for you since you obviously have not bothered to look them up…

    The actus reus(guilty act) of theft is usually defined as an unauthorized taking, keeping or using of another’s property which must be accompanied by a mens rea(guilty mind) of dishonesty and/or the intent to permanently deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use.

    In English law, theft was codified into a statutory offence in the Theft Act 1968 which defines it as:

    “A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it”.

    Copyright infringement (or copyright violation) is the unauthorized or prohibited use of works covered by copyright law, in a way that violates one of the copyright owner’s exclusive rights, such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, or to make derivative works.

    “(copyright infringement) does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud… The infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to the copyright holder alone. But he does not assume physical control over the copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use. While one may colloquially link infringement with some general notion of wrongful appropriation, infringement plainly implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud.” — Dowling v. United States, 473 U.S. 207, pp. 217–218

    Isn’t it time you paid better attention to the links you yourself post.

    You do not bother to provide any links to supporting data for any of your accusations.

    OK, so, you’re talking about a balance between artists and the general public and you propse that everyone get’s this for free and artists receive nothing in return for their work? Clap clap clap. Brilliant. Im impressed.

    Where exactly did he say that? Do you lie on purpose?

    You got it wrong. Before it WAS balanced. People paid for things and people enjoyed the hard work of artists. Illegal file sharing upset the balance by thumbing their noses at copyright holders.

    The proper spelling is paid, you really need to use spell check because your atrocious spelling makes you look uneducated. Yes, we thumb our collective noses at the copyright holders, not the artists.

    How much incentive would someone have to create a good product if they know that people are just going to exploit them and pay them nothing for their work.

    Where is the artist in all this? Why don’t you ever touch on how the artist/creators are affected when people weasel out of paying them for their work, hm?

    See my earlier links on this subject.

    You don’t want them to decide how copyright affects their own work but you have decided that copyrights should expire so people’s own work is no longer under their control? I want my neighbors TV!

    If you take your neighbors TV that is stealing because they no longer have it. Sharing files is only a copy. You know, the thing you use to post your comments.

    Give me some hard evidence that supports a different business model that results in profit for the artist.

    I will answer this with a quote from you…

    In case you haven’t realized, Itunes is selling legal movie downloads and I don’t think that anyone would say that they have no value since tons of people are buying them.

    The problem with iTunes is they are over priced and the fact that they limit how you can use the media that you have legally purchased. If I have paid for it I should be able to use the media on whatever device I choose. What if auto manufacturers said you could only drive their car on roads they say you can? People would not allow that to happen. Much like what is happening now with media in all its flavors.

    All you talked about are people’s “rights”. What about the the rights of the creators? Do you think they are your slaves who you can abuse however you see fit?

    Rights of the creators? Yeah right, like this…
    http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2008/02/riaa-dima-want-to-slash-songwriter-royalties-for-digital-music.ars

    It is you who needs to do some searching! Not one thing in your post is logical or has any supporting data. I would say that you failed epically but that would give you too much credit. Instead I will say you fail miserably in your poor debating skills and a poor grasp of the English language. I know your from the States by this comment so don’t try to deny it.

    This is America, where people have the opportunity to become rich if they work hard enough.

    You might try working on your language skills before posting again!

  • alienjoe

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  • Anonymous

    And he responds..

    Classic pirate!

    You started right off with an assumption that I’m a “pirate.” How can you prove that I’ve ever downloaded something illegally? Or do you just assume that I must be one since I oppose antipirates?

    Seriously though, I have consistently seen this from all people who support “filesharing” you resort to name calling all the time. Look at how much trouble people have calling Reasoned Mind by his actual name.

    My accusations of trolling are not unfounded. I explain them. Why is this so difficult for you?

    People claim that me and anyone else who doesn’t support piracy is only speaking out against it because they are supposidly being paid to do so by the music industry.

    Yeah… you don’t pay attention at all.

    You are taking it it without permission? How is this not stealing?

    I’m not even going to bother with this. If you’re unable to see by now why copyright infringement is not theft, you’ll never be able to.

    So when the record labels (who help the bands more than you or any pirate ever will) uses a track with authorization it’s theft, but when you do it, it’s not?

    The teenager who uses it without permission it does so just to listen to it. The record label who uses it without permission does so for profit. Are you capable of seeing the difference?

    Taking what isn’t yours isn’t something that differs from person to person. Everyone learns from the time they are little, that taking other people’s things is immoral.

    Copyright infringement != theft. And millions more people think it’s okay to download than rob a bank.

    Time and time again, people bring points of view that differ from your own and all you do is chant “troll” over and over again.

    Time and time again, you antipirates ignore the explanations behind your trolling and simply insist you’re being persecuted for having a differing opinion.

    n the above link you have several examples of petty name calling. For example, people call Reasoned Mind Raisin Brain.

    Doesn’t invalidate all my other points.

    Besides, in your link Reasoned Mind is completely misrepresented. No one is against all downloading. We are against illegal downloading. Downloading of material that people depend on to make living (something which is evidently like an alien language to you.)

    Separate downloading into four categories:
    -Downloading everything you want in lieu of paying (type A)
    -Downloading things to “preview” them so that you can buy the good stuff (type B)
    -Downloading commercially rare or unavailable works (type C)
    -Downloading free or otherwise legal content (type D).

    Would you state that you are only against Type A?

    OK, so, you’re talking about a balance between artists and the general public and you propse that everyone get’s this for free and artists receive nothing in return for their work?

    Nope.

    I don’t disagree with the idea that artists should get compensated for their work. I massively disagree with the idea that in the digital age, every copy of a work should be under such severe lockdown, considering how technically trivial it is to replicate and distribute works now. You will understand this if you think of it on a scale: on one side are copyright maximalists and on the other side are copyright minimalists. Somewhere in the middle is the compromise of copyright law that will solve the problem.

    You got it wrong. Before it WAS balanced. People payed for things and people enjoyed the hard work of artists. Illegal file sharing upset the balance by thumbing their noses at copyright holders.

    You leave out the fact that copyright law wasn’t designed for the Internet. In an age where copying and distribution were nontrivial actions, copyright law worked. Unfortunately, it’s a broken concept, precisely because of the wars we’re seeing of the entertainment industries and the general public.

    How much incentive would someone have to create a good product if they know that people are just going to exploit them and pay them nothing for their work.

    Which is why I am not against the fundamental concept of copyright. Artists need to eat, too. What I am against, wholeheartedly so, is our current implementation of copyright. Life plus 70 years? DMCA? DRM? No, thank you. It all needs to go if we’re going to get that balance back.

    What you call public domain is OTHER PEOPLES WORK. You are NOT entitled to it by default.

    Um… yes we are. Creative works are supposed to eventually belong to the public at large, free of any copyright restrictions. This is why copyrights expire and why the Constitution only authorizes copyright for a “limited Time.” By giving artists limited controls over their works, the indirect goal of copyright is to give us a rich public domain from which to build and create. That’s such a fundamental aspect of copyright law that I’m severely disappointed that you didn’t know it.

    Send em a letter about how your right to have everything for free is being violated.

    Didn’t you read my arguments about copyright itself? It’s not about being able to get things for free.

    So lawsuits should only happen when they are “fair”?

    Lawsuits should only happen when they are justified.

    Do you think a person who draws graffiti on the side of a building can stand up the deep pockets of company that owns that building? So you think that they should just ignore it when their building is vandalized?

    No, but at most they’re going to get fined maybe a couple hundred dollars and have to clean it up. They won’t be put in jail for years or fined hundreds of thousands (or more) dollars for this light offense.

    Where is the artist in all this? Why don’t you ever touch on how the artist/creators are affected when people weasel out of paying them for their work, hm?

    The problem here is that it’s not the artists that file lawsuits against file sharers, it’s the labels/movie studios/whatever. It’s Big Content, not the little guy. Yes, some artists have spoken out in favor of this litigation, but many others have condemned it.

    You think being expected to pay for things is “complete control”?

    Yes. In a very general sense, culture is not something that should be locked entirely up behind a paywall, disadvantaging those who coincidentally don’t have the economic resources to access it.

    By the same token, do you also think that the government is “completely controlling” you when they tell you that you have to pay taxes and follow driving rules?

    No, because those have nothing to do with my arguments.

    It’s not your work and you don’t get to decide what to do with it.

    The CREA prevented old works from falling into the public domain. And that’s all it did. So I gues s you’re against the public domain, then? Care to justify that for us?

    Give me some hard evidence that supports a different business model that results in profit for the artist.

    Wikipedia, which is funded entirely by donations, raised seven and a half million dollars in donations over a period of eight weeks. So I think it’s clear that people who like something enough are willing to pay for it, even if it’s free.

    Look at Red Hat. Gives away the software, charges for other things like support and custom distros. Last I checked, they were pretty profitable, despite the main product being free.

    And then of course there’s the popular NiN example. Before you argue that he only got as popular as he did because of the labels, let me remind you that how he got popular is irrelevant. There are other ways to build a fan base. Once more artists begin capitalizing on that (which is sort of happening already), yet another use of the labels will disappear.

    Paying for things is the only logical solution that rewards people for their hard work. The only.

    Sure. But the “copies sold” business model is not the only way to do that, and on the Internet, it’s not the most practical.

    1) CDs and other physical media are no different than digital versions.

    How? They are completely different things, with different rules of physics governing them. Saying CDs and digital media are the same is like saying that ice and water vapor are the same.

    2) No one is against all download, just illegal downloading. What gave you that idea?

    I addressed this above.

    3) Logical fallacy : Reasoned Mind is a troll just because you are automatically right and if he doesn’t see it that way, he must be a troll. The idea that YOU are wrong has never occured to you.

    Incorrect. I do not simply call him a troll and leave it at that. I call him a troll and explain why. Again, you ignore this fact.

    All you talked about are people’s “rights”. What about the the rights of the creators? Do you think they are your slaves who you can abuse however you see fit?

    All you talked about are creators’ and copyright owners’ “rights.” What about the general public? Do you think we are all your slaves who you can abuse however you see fit?

    You still fail to bring up a good reason as to why you are entitled to what is not yours.

    I’m tired of this “entitlement” argument so I’m going to refute it. I do not lay any claim to copyrighted works that I did not create. I do not believe that I, or anyone else, should “get everything for free” even though that’s probably all you’ll think I’m saying. What I think is that we need that balance back. We have to find a way to pay artists without sacrificing the rights of the general public like we have. Copyright has gone horribly wrong. “Piracy” is just a convenient excuse for the big corps to justify their war on culture and their desire to control everything we watch, read, listen to, and interact with. It’s far more about our culture than it is about “getting things for free.”

  • the Narrator

    (Neo slinks away, battered, beaten, crushed and humiliated. He looks back forlornly as the door to reality is slammed in his face, permanently.)

    Thus ends the sad tale neo.styles!

  • zod

    dear god neo, you are quite literally a halfwit, the phrase ‘a little knowledge is a dangerous thing’ seems to be tailor made for you

  • Neo not styles

    #92 zod wrote

    dear god neo, you are quite literally a halfwit, the phrase ‘a little knowledge is a dangerous thing’ seems to be tailor made for you

    I couldn’t have said it any better!

  • yagu

    Yagu wrote

    When I was young, my Dad told me the RIAA was good because they took care to ensure our music was reproduced with as high fidelity as possible. For example, the RIAA worked with the recording industry to establish techniques and standards for ‘storing’ bass on vinyl by attenuating it, but incorporating offsetting amplification to restore the bass to its correct presence allowing for more music on a single vinyl disk. Thus the RIAA was there to ensure or help ensure the best possible music experience.

    Oh how things seemed to have changed. I don’t know if my Dad was correct (I didn’t do the research), but regardless, the RIAA certainly seems to be the antithesis to the ‘old’ RIAA. Today the RIAA sounds more and more like organized crime, except that to date, for some reason, every thing they do seems to be deemed legal.

    So, it seems the RIAA has become evil. It’s probably time people tried to fulfill their musical quests elsewhere as much as it may be possible. If you still need and want to listen to Janet Jackson, so be it, but:

    Someone on slashdot turned me onto this before, I feel it important others check it out… I’ve signed up and have been a member of emusic for a while now, and now have over 300 non-drm’ed mp3s and love it. And, I don’t have to worry about the RIAA, at least I don’t think I do. After reading their staked ‘claims’ in the article, I’m not so sure. Regardless, should it actually be so, check emusic out.

  • Anonymous

    @94

    Obvious spam is obvious.

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  • Anonymous

    Well… no response from neo…

    Guess I just need to link to this thread whenever he posts, to show people that he can’t stand up to real arguments.

  • Ace Hall

    Agreed #97 Anonymous

    Neo will not respond to well laid out arguments, at least not with any real meat behind his responses, I’ve tried on many occasions to get a response. His usual action is simply to ignore any thing he can’t respond to an start puking his word vomit on another thread.

    Same goes for raisin tard, you corner him and he scurries away like a small rodent.

    This is the only response you can expect from the tard twins…
    http://instantcrickets.com/

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