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PRS Wants ISPs To Pay For Pirating Customers

The Performing Rights Society, the UK outfit collecting royalties for the music industry, wants to charge Internet providers for the amount of illegal downloading that happens via their networks. ISPs should monitor the traffic of their users and compensate the music industry for its claimed losses, PRS economist Will Page argues in a paper published today.

In a paper titled “Moving Digital Britain Forward Without Leaving Creative Britain Behind”, Will Page suggests various models through which ISPs could compensate the losses allegedly caused by customers that share music without consent from copyright holders.

The proposal piggybacks onto the UK’s Digital Economy Act, which requires that the level of illicit file-sharing should be measured. The PRS believes this is a unique opportunity to use these statistics to charge ISPs accordingly, by putting a price tag on the traffic volume generated by illicit downloaders.

Not all parties are equally excited about the idea. UK ISP Talktalk has responded negatively to the proposal from PRS. “It would require monitoring of traffic and this has huge implications in respect of directives on privacy and data retention,” TalkTalk told Sky News.

“It’s profoundly unfair – it is like making a bus company responsible for shoplifters who use their buses to get to the shops,” TalkTalk said. “It is futile since people will switch to undetectable methods e.g. encrypted services, streaming.” TalkTalk further emphasizes that the music industry should focus on building sustainable business models though innovation and by listening to consumers instead.

Indeed, the PRS proposal is overly simplistic since measuring illicit traffic is extremely complex. With the increased adoption of anonymizing services it might even prove impossible to get an accurate estimate.

Despite the technical issues, the economic aspects are more complex than the PRS believes them to be. Foremost, there is still a debate as to whether piracy results in losses, and if so, to what extent. Even if this number would be known, one can question whether it’s fair that non-pirating customers will eventually have to deal with price increases caused by the suggested “pirate levy”.

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  • Jasper

    That makes no sense. Sharing is caring!

    One download is not the same as one sale!

  • drmike

    I’ve had to listen to hundreds of bad albums over the years. Does this mean the PRS will give me money for wasting my time?

  • Anonymous

    I think that there is an answer that is coming into light here about why the movie industry is refusing to provide digital downloads on the internet, as a means of distribution. Since there is an ongoing practice of creative accounting that inhibits the showing of a profit, it seems that the act of using digital distribution would severely cut into their inflated costs.

    In other words, the use of a digital download would provide a more accurate an open accounting method, along with a much smaller cost of distribution. It would be incredibly difficult to fudge some of these costs as they’ve been doing for years. It wouldn’t be as easy to claim the multimillion dollar fees for distribution if digital was their primary means for delivery. They are fearing the inevitable. I’m not sure that I’m explaining myself well, here, but you should get the idea.

  • in.cog.nito

    Yeah they want ISP’s to pay for customers, because they can’t pin it on the customers.

    Here is a little clue, catch up to technology or die by the side of the information super-highway.

  • nuker02

    just waiting for the day PRS try to extort money out off people who using headphones on full blast.
    they are allowing other people to steal with ears after all

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  • openbittorrent

    @3. That is well put matey. Your right on the money.

  • Tomas

    Let me guess, when they say they want to monitor the levels of piracy, what they really mean is they want to monitor the levels of P2P traffic.

    Because all P2P traffic is piracy, and piracy can’t happen any other way.

  • Anonymous

    Man the PRS are absolutely insane. So supposing a business downloads large files for whatever reason. The PRS wants their ISP to compensate them for that. Wheres the logic in that?

    They don’t own bandwidth and can’t just put a tax on it just because some people are downloading their products.

    Some times i cant believe what i read, it just seems too surreal. Jeez

  • Klesus

    ISPs and content creators (Warner Bros., Universal, Ubisoft, EA, Sony Entertainment, etc.) should work together rather than against each other. Instead of collecting fines and royalties from ISPs, they should make business together, providing legal alternatives with technology such as bittorrent provides.

  • theDog

    Copyright laws were never made to prevent sharing, they were made to prevent people from PROFITING from other people’s work. When I give a book or CD to someone (physical or digital), I’m not breaking copyright laws. It’s only when I make MONEY from it. Get those people, but leave the sharer’s alone.
    The whole world has gone insane, I want off this bus.

  • An0nYm0us

    F(_)ckin’…. greedy b@stards!

  • Grumpy

    @3 Amen.

    I bill out around £40 / hour. If I follow the music industries lead and make up some numbers, then they owe me for 1,352 hours listening to albums that I didn’t like. Who should I send my invoice for £54k to? I’ll waive the £80. Nice guy, me!

    Also movies that sucked, games that didn’t work (NFS Shift anyone?), were buggy or just plain dull.

    Or how about we just settle for paying a fair price. Thus, say, Callifornication (which I got a lot of listening out of) would cost me £50, where as The Circus would pay me £2,000. Never getting the time back from that one…

    Fucktards, the lot of them.

  • TerribleTony

    The devil has many forms, and PRS is one of them.

  • fef

    come prs I want you to suck my dick

  • slippitydoodah

    Nasty little private company that produces no annual income or expenditure figures so that musicians/writers etc have no idea whether they are receiving a fair income from extortionate PRS charges to businesses.

    They should have their legal basis removed and be forced into the open before spouting about forcing others to do the same. Do as you would be done by.

  • acce

    ”the the CLAIMED loss”

    FUCK! They’ll claim anything! One download is not one lost sale! Most of the stuff I download I never watch again.

    This will increase the price of ISP 500%

    Death to the industry!

  • joe

    Economics should be known as the science of evil.

  • Anonymous

    Yes, and the government should have to reimburse any goods people steal from a business because the thief probably used a government owned road to leave the scene of the crime. It makes perfect sense!

  • Kip

    Rant you views:
    press@prsformusic.com

    (prsformusic! Yeah, more like prsformoney)

  • Jez

    Have you saw the ridiculous fees this ‘company’ charges you for playing music in your business (cafe etc)

    Over 12,000GPB (18000USD) per year!

  • Maxx Ormis

    Uhm. No.

  • StopTheMadness

    “…compensate the music industry for its claimed losses…”

    The operative word here is ‘claimed’. It’s generally known that the copywrong cartel’s loss claims are pulled out of their collective ass, and totally detached from reality. Much like their bullshit claim of protecting artists.

    “The PRS believes this is a unique opportunity to use these statistics to charge ISPs accordingly, by putting a price tag on the traffic volume generated by illicit downloaders.”

    Oh, like that piracy tax on recordable media isn’t enough? Silly me, of course it isn’t. I gotta call bullshit on this crap, too.

    “TalkTalk further emphasizes that the music industry should focus on building sustainable business models though innovation and by listening to consumers instead.”

    Like pirates and other parties in the know haven’t been saying that for years.
    But as someone else posted, the copywrong robber barons would find it harder to screw artists and the public if they adapted to the times.

    PRS = Yet Another Bunch Of Soulless Greedy Jackbooted Assholes Who’s Sole Existence Is To Rip You And Me Off.

  • Ninja

    @ 10 Jul 14, 2010 at 17:39 by theDog: They don’t care, they need money for their failed business model. It’s like “we can’t stand on our own so you ppl have to carry us with you”.

    Also, #14 has a point, they present ppl with shady biased data and obscure revenue figures and they want us to believe in what they say. I can see how fair they are to the artists, specially the ones that don’t generate massive revenue.

    If I were in the UK I’d join the pirate party there for sure and I’d be doing some noise. It seems there’s a pirate party in their infant form here, I’m following their development. Still, copyright is not that bad here although there are some imbeciles inside the govt that are advocating like Mr Mandy was to the UK bill they have been ignored so far.

    I wonder how far will this idiocy go. How far are the govts going to allow failed companies to consume public resources in lawsuits, destroy lives and be a burden on other companies.

  • omg

    well if my isp like charge me 10$ more for my internet because they are charged for “piracy” id be happy and ill make sure i download more stuff …

    but only if it would take out all responsibility from the users and let the big shark of this world deals with their big money and stupid, anti-constitutional and out of their time laws. That way they can let us download what we want when we want without limits….

    amen !

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  • Independent artist

    Well as an independent artist I this to say. Music,movies etc can be duplicated and “shared” to millions whom have not purchased your product. On average a low budget album costs me 10-15 thousand US dollars. In order for us to go on tour or make another album we need to make our money back. I feel for the younger generation they will “never” see the likes of AC/DC, Michael Jackson, Rolling Stones etc because there is just no way for investors to make the invested money back because no one feels music is important enough to “pay” for it.

  • Anonymous

    The Performing Rights Society?

    PARASITES!

  • Webhiker

    I have no idea how PRS would have ISP’s measure who payed for the music they download and who didn’t. Seriously, no ISP can see if the music I fetch from my FTP server is payed for or not. It could easily be a backup copy of my entire “paid for” digital music collection. This is by far the most idiotic suggestion I have ever heard.

  • Momba

    “the UK outfit collecting royalties for the music industry, wants to charge Internet providers for the amount of illegal downloading”

    And I want to a toilet made of solid gold… but it’s not in the cards, now is it baby?

  • Momba

    >Well as an independent artist I this to say. Music,movies etc can be duplicated and “shared” to millions whom have not purchased your product.

    Art is not a product. If it is, I want warranty just like on any other product.

  • Anonymous

    @ theDog

    I’m not 100% sure but pretty sure that if you lend a game or cd to a friend you are breaking the copyright law.

    Copyright needs to go, and by sharing with p2p we have basically made it insignificant :D

  • neostyles

    “It’s profoundly unfair – it is like making a bus company responsible for shoplifters who use their buses to get to the shops,”

    Wrong. Said shoplifters could always walk to the store, but without an ISP, people couldn’t get internet access. It’s nothing but willful negligence on the part of the ISP.

  • jargon

    I’m getting more and more nervous about the future of filesharing. On top of ACS::Law, USCG, this and the ACTA, I’m thinking the shits gonna hit the fan pretty soon.

  • Lynne Wildgrove

    LOL, yeah OK good luck with that. The Song “You cant always get what you want” comes to mind here.

    privacy-tools.es.tc

  • nobby

    Those TOSSERS (PRS) got all the radios removed from my workplace when they decided it was more profitable to charge by the size of the workplace rather than how many people work there.
    WANKERS

  • jd

    With the insane logic behind this, you know who exactly is the one pushing it, its the RIAA/MPAA.
    The only reason they stopped their lawsuits recently is because they now have control of Governments.

  • Reggit

    I just cant help but wonder, what if i downloaded the same album 20 odd times for whatever reason – then decided it was crap and that i never wanted to listen to it again….ever and so deleted it! Would the PRS be compensated for 20 “lost sales”?
    And likewise, say i download 1 album, decide i really really like it, and so go out and buy an original copy – would that not mean the PRS would make money from the copy i downloaded, as well money from me personally for the physical copy?

    Not to mention ALLL the other arguements – invasion of privacy being pretty high up in my mind.

    This PRS idea is just so full of holes im begining to wonder if they even thought it through themselves! Insane!

  • Sean

    23 Jul 14, 2010 at 20:50 by Independent artist

    That didn’t stop Mozart from making some 600 or so works. He lived most of his life piss poor, he didn’t make a cent from album sales…

    As an independant artist myself, I could care less if I didn’t make money from album sales. Music is my hobby. If I don’t make any money from it, then I should probably get a real job doing work.
    And if it’s work(and not play) for you to make music…then that’s a problem.

    I’ve spent $1000 or so this year on music equipment for me to enjoy. Because people are willing to pay money for their hobbys.

  • João Brancocampo

    * EU ACTION UPDATE: KEY DEADLINE FOR EU DECLARATION ON ACTA
    EXTENDED

    Fantastic news! Thanks to the efforts of committed allies
    and EFF activists in the EU, more than 300 Members of
    European Parliament (MEPs) have signed the Written
    Declaration opposing the worst parts of ACTA, helping
    extend the deadline for obtaining the remaining 69 MEP
    signatures to 9 September. This victory gives EU citizens
    much-needed time to urge the European Parliament to take a
    stand against ACTA — the infamously secretive effort to
    curtail freedom on the Internet worldwide.

    Keep the pressure on! Contact your MEP today:
    https://www.eff.org/action/eu-action-alert-urge-your-mep-take-stand-internet-acta

  • Anonymous

    “PRS Wants ISPs To Pay For Pirating Customers”

    IN THEIR DREAMS.

  • Lucky Man

    lol @13

    i would tell them same thing. they better not threatening my ISP… they think money can buy ISP to monitoring their paying customers? oh come on now! PRs better move to Hell…cuz im sure Devil sure controlling them. so now first Devil made Eve ate apple so now Anti-piracy? goddamn retarted.

  • Jay

    tend to listen to streaming music on spotify, last.fm, shoutcast etc…

    most of the music downloaded to keep is usenet and a bit off torrents

    not sure how they can tell the difference

  • original

    In general this idea seems useless. It will only provide extra incentive for people to download more music, because they’re already paying for it no? I guess it’ll be worth a lot of money come to think of it that way, since downloads will sky-rocket, causing the ISP’s to log more illicit download traffic, thus causing the amount of money to be paid to the industry to grow. Great plan actually, except they keep screwing the music fans more and more… Word of advice: encryption and so forth. If it’s passed, make it impossible for the ISP’s to track illicit downloading, and teach your fellow “pirates” how to encrypt also, so that the number of downloads won’t rise drastically.

    @Independent artist: I’m not going to deny there should be a form of “incentive” to keep creating art in any form. Art takes time to bring it to perfection, and as we all know, time is money in that sense. The time spent on a regular paying job, is time that one could spend on perfecting their art, thus create a better ability to entertain the fans. BUT in my opinion you don’t hold your fans in high regard as to say they will never be “tipping” you, so to say. As a music fan I see more and more happening around me that my peers (lol) discover great new artists, and are willing to support them, financially also. The key here is that we want to support the artist himself, not the labels, nor the marketeers/distributors. If you’re truly independent AND also a great artist, I’m sure you will be supported by your fans in some way (them buying your “product” directly off you). If the latter isn’t the case (you being a great artist), you can’t blame the music lovers for shutting you out the game…

  • PayMeLess

    “TalkTalk further emphasizes that the music industry should focus on building sustainable business models though innovation and by listening to consumers instead.”

    What!? Noo, but then they couldn’t screw people out of their own money.

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  • Me

    Alright, another “you got to be downloading my shit, illegally” tax.

  • Ryan

    SO the ISP is responsible for paying for infringements and also have to monitor them as well.

    How many infringements do you need to pay us for this month TalkTalk?

    There was actually no infringements this week so we don’t owe you anything.

    Its like asking a shoplifter to confess when there’s no evidence.

  • david love

    what the fuck is wrong with PRS,

    i dont understand what the fuck they want from public,

    anyway guys its http://www.scenetime.com
    i think :)

  • Dia

    So.

    1. If this happened, sharing wouldn’t be illegal anymore, because we’d be paying for it.

    2. If piracy doesn’t case losses, RIAA will start paying ISPs for promoting their music?

  • Filip

    So the post office should be held responsible for a terrorist attack such as anthrax in the mail?

  • Maroan

    Orson Wells “1984″ anyone? Its getting closer and closer I think…
    @ Independent artist:(@25) If youre really an independent artist, then you dont need these investors/bloodsuckers.. You have the Net! What is wrong about having all the profit for yourself? Recording music is not expensive anymore these days, you dont need a record label anymore for that! Get a reputation through the Net, give somes songs away and ask for donations to your site, if youre good, you will have a living.. (And Im not thinking about Radio Heads) Be creative, man!

  • dannyboy

    @3 well said

  • Matheus Svensson

    As has already been commented, if they want to introduce a levy, let them. The first step would have to be making file-sharing lawful. The PRS file-sharing levy would necessitate the introduction of a more general private-copying right. There are almost no exceptions to copyright that allow for private copying in the UK. Because of this, there’s no levy on blank media. You couldn’t allow file-sharing, but still prohibit copying songs from a CD to an iPod or making a duplicate CD.

    Expect to see the rest of the UK music industry roundly attacking this PRS-centric idea.

  • Greg

    Sweet, lets make gas stations pay for speeders too.

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  • JD

    e UK Government have setup a website where users can post their ideas on how to restore our freedom and civil liberties.

    Out of the hundreds of ideas, repelling the Digital Economy Act is 5th.
    If you want to do something that will help us, and will be read by the Prime Minister and Nick Clegg themselves, please just take 30 seconds of your time to rate the following article or post you (intelligent) views on this ill thought out and rushed act.
    It would also be nice if TorrentFreak mentioned this in someway, please, as it would give some much needed press to the matter from a worthy news site.

    Link:
    yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/repealing-unnecessary-laws/digital-economy-act

  • whipped

    There are lots of free sites that feature music. There is so much music on Creative Commons that I can not find the time to listen to it all.
    There are many ways of obtaining media. I no longer have to buy any movies as I watch them from other souces.
    I don’t download anymore, I have found better ways.
    All one has to do is use your imigination!
    I do find the drama interresting though and enjoy reading the comments found on Torrent Freak but i say,”To hell with the corporations and their outdated business models! I will beat you at your own game!”

    I will still continue to buy music cds from the smaller label to support the artists but not the stupid for show mainstream crap the corporations try to force feed us.
    Good luck out there, I hope for the best. People should be allowed to be free and sharing and caring is what it’s all about!

  • me

    If that happened then our isp subscription costs would increase, therefore we (or our isp’s) would actually be paying for the stuff we were downloading so then it would not be pirated or illegally downloaded afterall…

  • Fire

    wow~

  • Monster

    If only the UK ISP’s would tell the government where to stick it.

    There is a simple solution, if the government want to put these stupid laws through and cost the ISP’s millions, the the ISP’s should either refuse access to their networks for anyone in anyway associated with the government.

    Let’s see them function without the internet…

  • CGGGGwydion

    We don’t really have much choice. I remember taping music for friends years ago when at school. If it had been today I’d have been taken outside and been shot! We have to rise above this. If we all panic and stop they can pick us off one by one. If we all say F*CK U and carry on, they cant do shit! Trust me. They are trying to scare us to reveal a ripe minority to financially rape. X

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