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RIAA: Pirates Are Bigger Music Fans Than Average Consumers

After a study pointed out that file-sharers spend more money on music than their non-sharing counterparts, the RIAA felt the need to respond. The music industry group is now characterizing news reports on the findings as “misleading” and is ready to burst the bubble. According to the RIAA there is a straightforward reason why P2P users buy more – they are simply better engaged music fans than average music consumers. … Eh?

riaaLast month, research from the Columbia University affiliated American Assembly found that U.S. file-sharers buy 30% more music than their non-sharing counterparts.

The RIAA wasn’t too happy with this result (or how the media reported on it) so they brought in research firm NPD to counter with some statistics of their own. According to NPD’s Russ Crupnick the result could be explained by a myriad of third variables.

Yesterday, Joshua Friedlander, RIAA’s Vice President of Research and Strategic Analysis, followed up on the topic, assuring readers that music pirates certainly don’t buy more music because they download music illegally.

“Some commentary has misleadingly reported that people who use P2P services like BitTorrent buy more music than non-users, implying that there’s some sort of causation,” he writes.

According to the RIAA there is a very simple explanation for the finding that file-sharing music consumers buy more music – they are simply more interested in music than average music consumers (to begin with).

“In reality, the comparison is unfair – what it’s comparing is people who are interested in music with people who might not be interested at all. Of course people interested in music buy more,” Friedlander writes.

Eh..?

So the RIAA is now arguing that among music consumers, P2P users are more interested in music than non-sharers?

It seems so, as the RIAA backs up this (for them) unusual conclusion by linking to data from NPD who found that among 18-35 year-olds, music buying P2P users spend 40% more than those who don’t share at all. In 2011 music pirates spent $267 per capita compared to $191 for those who don’t share.

“What it says is that the people who download music illegally are generally more engaged in music, so they go to shows and they wear their favorite artists on their shirts,” is NPD’s conclusion from these stats.

An interesting conclusion, and exactly the same as ours when we reported on the study.

“A likely explanation for these results is that true music enthusiasts simply want to consume, sample and discover as much new music as they possibly can, and the most straightforward and convenient way to do this is through file-sharing networks,” we wrote at the time.

So we all agree, at least on this part.

Opinions differ greatly on the direction of the link between engagement and file-sharing. NPD and the RIAA see it exclusively as a one way street. They believe it’s silly to argue that some people visit more concerts because they discovered artists through sharing, for example.

“Are we saying that P2P file sharing promotes T-shirt sales, or show attendance? Of course not; that would be silly,” NPD’s Russ Crupnick writes.

But is it really that silly? Or is it possible that some file-sharers become more engaged music fans because they have access to music they wouldn’t be able to afford otherwise? Could it be that these file-sharers then visit a concert of a band they wouldn’t have known if they didn’t pirate?

In a “misleading” twist of its own NPD points out that piracy must be the reason for the decline in revenue because the average P2P user (non music buyers included) now spends $42 per capita on music compared to $90 in 2004. What they fail to notice, however, is that P2P users are mostly sharing video now. So the percentage of music buyers among P2P users is much lower than before, which makes it a flawed comparison.

But whatever the case is, it might not be smart to label all music pirates as “thieves” without looking carefully at the reasons why they use file-sharing networks. After all, these people are also the music industry’s most engaged customers, and there’s nothing misleading about that.

Update: Micheal Geist points out that NPD made a HUGE mistake in their table. They actually added the subtotal to the total count. Who’s drinking now?

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  • NaziAmerica

    They’re still not getting it… give me a REASON to buy it, and I will. A case, a CD, and a cover is not enough, as I can print my own, and everyone knows that money is not going to the artists.

    Until you douches get your act together, expect things to get worst.

    • thenextguy

      Also, What’s the point to encourage these guys when they are behind the censorship of the Internet (UK situation with TPB), or the 6 strike system in the USA.

      My money is going straight into the artists’ pocket, not their.

      • ResearchersCantDoSimpleMath

        Did anyone see that the “NPD” table added the subtotal TWICE? How is this agency reputable? For example, in the first column the “grand total” should have been 24 + 29 + 2 +20 +63 = 138. Not $191 like they posted (which is 138 + 54).

        • http://twitter.com/NORQII Jason Clark

          Both the of totals and subtotals are flawed. My guess is that they left some stats out.

        • Narb

          TIL the NPD can’t count.

        • CommentersCantDoSimpleMath

          You mean, 191 is (54 * 2 + 83). They appear to be doubling the subtotal in both cases for some undeclared reason.

          I really wish I could downvote your comment. You didn’t even bother to check your own math.

        • FACTCommentersCantDoSimpleMath

          CommentersCantDoSimpleMath

          You just repeated what he said. Adding the subtotal twice -> 54 + 54 = 54*2.

          I really wish I could downvote your comment. You didn’t even bother to check your own math.

        • eh.

          and 24+29+2 is 55 not 54. there are numerical errors abound.

        • Nah

          Nah. That’s just rounding. They aren’t showing the decimal values.

    • CaptCosmo

      My preference is to buy the CD or DVD from the band/artist at live BLUES shows. AND I always ask if they mind me uploading it so they can increase their fan base. 9 out of 10 thank me for taking my time to help promote them and ask me to please upload and share it……..

    • ofProto

      Here here good sir.

    • mikedt

      This is going to sound like some RIAA shill…. Personally I think a case, cd and a cover – as well as knowing the data is good and as the artist intended – is a reason for buying a CD. Just keep the price reasonable, which as far as I can tell most CDs cost less than their iTunes/Amazon digital counterparts. It seems like as downloads have increased the cost of CDs has decreased. For example, Neil Young’s last album (which is getting rave reviews) is a double cd selling for $14 on amazon. I don’t find that a rip off.

      Yes I know lots of people only “like a one song from an album”, but I tend to listen to artists that can generate and album’s worth of worthwhile songs so I don’t mind buying 10-15 songs at a time.

      • 2934s

        “as well as knowing the data is good and as the artist intended”

        THIS! You’re totally right bro, you ARE a total SHILL.

        “As the artist intended”….. /guffaw. Heard of the loudness war? Most CD’s are completely unlistenable ….. would not pay for such total garbage, that gets downloaded, listened to one time, in perfect lossless format, and then deleted, because it’s such pure crap quality. Did you pay for Death Magnetic? I fucking didn’t.

        Let’s not even get into autotune, or what constitutes as passing for “artist” these days. These “artists” should be paying their audience for the marketing they do…. nigga nigga yo yo nigga yo….. gold chains guns and running shoes…. nigga yo

        Fuck off.

        • jaVohn

          Your claim “Most CDs are completely unlistenable” is hyperbolic bullshit. Go sit in your rocking chair listening to vinyl, and keep the bitching about rap music and those damn porchmonkeys to yourself.

          Fuck off.

        • 2934s

          Oh that’s right there jaVohn, your mp3 player is truly the pinacle of high resolution and it’s really just my expectations that are unreasonable … idiot.

          The industry also got the nascent digital technology right the first time, despite not even being aware of appropriate high speed signal integrity measures in a low level noise requirement or the new artifacts they introduced like click and data jitter.

          Just about every album for a solid two decades of “digital media” is absolutely unlistenable shit and I have no problem standing by that, nigga nigga yo.

        • magic_crocodile

          The normal reaction to not liking something is to not consume it. If the music is so terrible (and I agree that much of it is) then why bother downloading it? Why fill your hard drive with garbage? This shows that the “music is garbage” argument is unsound and self-serving.

        • JeanbearTheImmasculator

          Today I learned most of torrent freak are racists…. and mp3′s are rips from cd’s…. ripping a cd doesn’t make it magically better quality. And loudness war has nothing to do with cd vs mp3.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/SEA2KMPZC6KUW7B5UP3M4WPZKQ Nokaaz

          @jaVohn well, being you’re racist, you’ll spend your whole life hating,
          so you should be most concerned about your own “bitching” times.

      • Twattr

        Albums are the best way to listen to music – but CDs are a waste of good polycarbonate.

        I rip them and send them to the charity shop.

      • Scary_Devil_Monastery

        No, that is not sounding like a RIAA shill. Many artists buy the music they’ve downloaded for the simple reason that they like to stock their shelves with their collection. That is what collectors do.

        Same with movie and games collector’s editions, etc etc.

        And, of course, if you find a band worth listening to, it’s a bit tacky to hand over a crudely stenciled CD still hot from burning. You usually spring for one in a decent-looking cover.

    • ResearchersCantDoSimpleMath

      Did anyone see that the “NPD” table added the subtotal TWICE? How is this agency reputable? For example, in the first column the “grand total” should have been 24 + 29 + 2 +20 +63 = 138. Not $191 like they posted (which is 138 + 54).

      • http://twitter.com/Evilspoons Erik Tomlinson

        Yeahhhhh, they included the subtotal in the total. Geniuses.

    • Le_brouhaha

      That’s why I buy all my albums from bandcamp.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Johnny-Cash/100002427462340 Johnny Cash

      Long Live Piracy!!

  • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

    I agree with RIAA.

    But it really doesn’t matter, an illegal action can’t be justified by another legal action. If shoplifters buy more products than non shoplifters, it still doesn’t justify shoplifting in the same way as spending more money on music or movies does not justify piracy.

    • http://profiles.google.com/pianogamer Knut Harald

      If you’re arguing about justication for piracy, you’re standing on groud (whatever moral planet you choose). But the RIAA however is arguing about lost profits, IDK from where, in the water or floating in space I guess.

      • JeanbearTheImmasculator

        The loss in profits is there…. They aren’t buying the physical media. If you steal all your bread, peanut butter sales will be up. That doesn’t help the bread manufacturers though. And if the majority of the money is being spent on the media and promotion of the music, why is the clothing industry the one profiting. They aren’t saying they are making money off concert and tshirt sales. They are saying that is where the money is going. Not to the label who records funds advertises for the bands.

        • Guest

          I was eating potatoes my neighbor grew, and then my friend handed me a piece of some bread they made using a 3d copy machine. I liked it so I bought some of their other types of bread and some peanut butter. Then I go around telling everyone I meet how much better bread is than potatoes, likely recommending the brand of bread my friend originally handed me.

          If no one was handing out free bread, I would never have known it existed, and the fact that it was from a particular manufacturer introduced me to their products and encouraged me to try more of their stuff.

        • JeanbearTheImmasculator

          I can’t reply to “Guest” So I’m doing it this way. The thing with your statement however facetious is you are supporting the bread maker that you received the copy from. The problem with the download cd and by shirt analogy is that someone else is profiting off of the work. Your analogy would work if you kept stealing the bread and buying peanut butter and thinking you are doing a good thing because, you buy peanut butter and and that helps sandwiches. The bread makers are evil though. There was capital invested in the music. The music funds the tours and promotion. Reznor new this and went back to the label so they would handle all of that. He conceded that labels aren’t as evil as the children say they are.

        • Fredrika

          > “The problem with the download cd and by shirt analogy is that someone else is profiting off of the work.”

          Simply calling something a problem does not make it one.

          > There was capital invested in the music.”

          All entrepreneurs invest money, and then it’s sunk. That an entrepreneur has chosen of his own free will to sink money gives him no gurantee that he will ever make it back, nor any right.

          > “The music funds the tours and promotion.”

          The only thing that can fund something is money

        • Guest

          > I liked it so I bought some of their other types of bread and some peanut butter.

          I may not have been clear enough that this is from the company that originally manufactured the bread my friend handed to me. Without piracy, I would never have given them a single cent, because you can’t do business with someone you don’t know about.

          I’m not saying piracy is ethical, I’m just saying that by fighting it they are attempting to eradicate a large amount of free advertising.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          According to about half a dozen actual market studies, then no, there is no discernible loss of profit.

          What there is, is a shift in sales. From physical CD’s and DVD’s towards digital equivalents. In short your local CD shop may be out of business but iTunes is doing just great.
          Either way the content industry screaming about their imagined loss in sales are, in fact, not losing any.

          If they were they wouldn’t keep setting records in revenue one year after the other. We’d be seeing a decline or at least a stop to growth. There is none.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          “Reznor new this and went back to the label so they would handle all of that. He conceded that labels aren’t as evil as the children say they are.”

          You mean “as evil as Trent Reznor says they are”. Because, in case you hadn’t read his interviews, he’s gone back with a severely limited deal, forcing one label he personally picked, for a limited deal in which he got to hammer down a contract of his liking.

          That does not change the fact that his experiences with labels has been an extremely negative one throughout his entire career. Or that he has been extremely outspoken on this fact.

    • Chronoss2008

      from recent court case the idea is that you instead should beat up a store owner and just take the cdrs, if you get caught its far less time then 15 years

      so carry on hollystupid

      • JeanbearTheImmasculator

        So you defend piracy because the laws against it are absurd?

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          If the laws being absurd that would hardly be a justification.

          That individual A should not be allowed to make a copy of a file for person B is definitely absurd though.

          Try this one on for size: In Sweden it would be perfectly legitimate for me to hand over free copies of every file i possess to anyone who is a relative, friend, aquaintance, colleague, or anyone of the casual strangers I could find sitting around the bar desk in the local pub. Legally.

          That would amount to me handing over thousands of copies of each work, with a probable end sum in hundreds of thousands “unlicensed” copies being granted.
          Quite legal according to “fair use”.

          I upload one copy of a song to a dozen strangers via bittorrent, I’m suddenly a criminal?

          “Copyright” is in itself an absurd concept no different than the information control practiced by the catholic church prior to the lutheran reformation.

          “Piracy” – if defined as noncommercial filesharing – doesn’t need any justification. Copyright, being a severe restriction on property rights, does require justification. Which it has always completely failed to do.

        • Piracy laws are absurd

          I think whats crazy is you make a law about it in one country making it ‘wrong’ but another country doesn’t make it an issue.

          That country which decides its ‘wrong’ is then lobbied by corporations with vested interests to spread that law around the world under the idea of it being ‘wrong’ when other countries.. and many individuals.. as the statistics show clearly don’t make the same connection.

          If companies want to shove advertising in peoples face 24/7 about products that cost increasing amount of cash and then complain when people share and distribute those things.. or that people steal from shops given the chance (like the london riots) then your ultimately just criticising the situation created by the advertisers in the first place.

    • Violated0

      You are making the claim that file sharing is bad because it is illegal. That is a nonsense claim when laws only prove their worth through ethics and facts.

      In this case those two points here are… Those doing this claimed bad acts spend more than those that don’t making the harm involved in the music market very questionable. It seems likely if file sharing ended overnight that many people would lose interest in music leading to a market decline… which is like what happened during the 90s when the public got bored with music and only Napster truly re-engaged them.

      The RIAA’s real enemy is not file sharers but the Indie music market which has dropped the RIAA’s control of the market from over 95% down to the current 46% but otherwise the global music market is healthy.

      Then if sharing is taught to kids as part of generosity then why should one part of society say sharing is bad? We of course all know it is wrong to profit from another person’s creation but to freely share with friends for community enjoyment seems quite reasonable.

      So facts and ethics seems to say that the law is wrong. Anyone who disagrees first has to prove that real harm does occur,

      • Who

        dam fucking right dude. good job stating the FACTS. thumbs up for ya

        • Ben

          Putting ‘facts’ in capital letters doesn’t make it more true.

          Violated0 made his case eloquently. You’re just making us look bad.

        • austinhamman

          ben, i think the caps were for emphasis doesnt make it more true, just makes the vocal inflections which would be used in speech more evident in type, where it tends to get lost.

      • Gurst

        So you would argue that sharing music without the express permission of the people who own the rights to it, is not unethical?

        • Chronoss2008

          id say puttng a kid in jail 15 years for any amount a file sharing is.
          Especially when i can beat the living fucking shit out of you to an inch of death ( oh how i’d like too ) and still get a 5 th the jail time

          SO i can do it 5 times……this might actually be fun
          lets all go beath the fucking tar out of an actor/musician/lawyer today

        • Someone

          it’s not.

          Would it be unethical lend a cd to a friend?

        • http://twitter.com/joshtarle Josh Tarle

          Do you send a royalty cheque to the artist of every song you play in your home? I hope you’ve been collecting money from any friend who hears any song you play because if the RIAA gets their way, you’ll be paying a fee for that. I wouldn’t be surprised if humming a popular tune out loud will soon result in an invoice. Got a song stuck in your head? I’m sure that they would charge you for your thoughts as well if they could.

        • Violated0

          You ask the key question when the real battle here is one of control. I would first say though that my opinion here is very biased when for the past 14 years it has been my job to enable buyers to achieve their fair use rights under the law despite content control and encryption.

          From all I have seen the content industry has run a series of monopolies that abuse the law and the markets. They use technology to rewrite the law to their benefit harming user rights. Free and fair competition has been crushed out of the market when these monopolies are run to maximise profit meaning they then have to be Government regulated to stop them ripping us all off. Choice in such a market is very limited when it is an anti-choice system.

          I have also seen how they have warped the law with things like the copyright term lasting life plus 70 years. The public domain has just been trashed and needs to be reaffirmed where even UMG said “They do not need to consider the public domain when it is only a part of copyright”. Every media creation around beyond a few exceptions get a copyright term if they want one or not.

          I am very happy with the file sharing market when many millions of people are having their needs met. All about seeing/hearing what they want, when they want, on the device of their choice. Years later official services have woke up to this where I have seen myself an official service like NetFlix can be very appealing and turn people away from infringement.

          The big question here seems to be who can better serve the public need? All I have seen is the content industry aiming for maximum profit and lock up everything tight to avoid all transport and sharing. Or can the public simply say “I want this” and the content industry then serve that demand? It seems they can even if they need to be dragged there kicking and screaming.

          Since this news is about music then look at the MP3s and FLACs when these are certainly not RIAA creations. Where is the encryption and content control? Sure they did try with DRM but that plan sure failed when people already had better. Is such a public controlled market such a bad thing when only the bands and labels can ever profit from selling this music? You may also notice a free and fair Indie market has since bloomed opposed to the old monopolies. So there is your answer in that the only control they should have is when money is involved.

        • Thebossisadouche:)

          Being a member of a community holds the potential to be unethical? sharing a song or album i purchased (there for i should own the right to do with it as i please) could be unethical? What about greed then? is greed, manipulation, exploitation or bait-and-switch unethical? that is what the entertainment industry does every second of every hour of every day. And, brought to you in part by people that decided to give up our say in most everything, laws protect them allowing it to continue.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          I would turn that around and ask what sort of “ethics” you purport to believe in when you state that person A should have any right what so ever to dictate what persons B communicates to person C?

          The only one who can be in the wrong in the above example is person A for refusing to allow persons B and C to communicate whatever they wish.

          “Copyright” is nothing other than information control of exactly the same bent as was practiced by the Sovjets and China. Just that the information exchanged is entertainment only and so ostensibly far less important than, for instance, a call to overthrow the government.

          And so “Copyright” has even less “ethical” justification in itself than government censorship does.

          Before even getting into that debate, first learn what “ethics” actually imply.

      • JeanbearTheImmasculator

        Do you have locks on your doors? I’d love to share your stuff with my community. For enjoyment.

        PS your napster statement is horseshit. It is a fact that all sales are down since Napster came in. What is being said by the study is that the avid downloaders (not the general downloaders) spend more then the avid cd buyers. The difference comes from all the non avid downloaders which could still account for more than half of all downloads. So the article conveniently excludes the average downloader. Because that would highlight all the lost revenue. It is a fact that all the music industry, both indy and major is in a nosedive because of downloading. The article is for “On the bright side, the most avid pirates do spend money.” That does not immediately mean all pirates though. Because again, sales are down across the board.

        • Blaggen

          Your ignorance is shocking. I would have no problem you taking a copy of all of my belongings to share with the community.

          Get a clue.

        • Fredrika

          > “It is a fact that all sales are down since Napster came in.”

          Incorrect, the combined sales in the music industry are up since Napster came.

          The only thing that’s down is record sales, and that rather natural since the record companies sells goods and services that are useless to society, everyone can manufacture those goods and services themselves these days for free. When you sell useless products, you deserve no sales.

        • JeanbearTheImmasculator

          In reply to fredrika

          The overall profits are down. You need to get your facts straight.
          http://www.businessinsider.com/these-charts-explain-the-real-death-of-the-music-industry-2011-2

          Again the argument isn’t that the plastic is useless, but rather the music has value. You can’t walk into a doctors office wait for him to give you a clean bill of health and then say I can stick my own finger up my ass for free so I’m not giving you any money. You received a service. You enjoy the music. You pay for it. That is the problem.

        • Fredrika

          > “The overall profits are down. You need to get your facts straight.”

          No, you need to learn the difference between the music industry which consists of all different business ides that are built around the commercial use of music, and the recording industry, which is a small part of the music industry, which focuses on recordings. The article you linked refers to the latter and that has nothing to to with the music industry’s total revenues, which have gone up each year.

          > “Again the argument isn’t that the plastic is useless, but rather the music has value.”

          The only thing that has economical value is things you can buy, pay for, own and sell, and that would be goods and services, and music constitutes neither. It sounds as if you need to take a course in basic economics.

          > “You received a service.”

          Correct, service, which is one of the two things that can be sold, the other being goods.

          > “You enjoy the music. You pay for it.”

          No, no one has ever paid for music. Its impossible, because music is not a good or a service.

          > “That is the problem.”

          There is no problem.

        • Anyone

          of course the profit of the RIAA labels is down, they lost about 50% marketshare to indy labels

          that’s not the fault of piracy, but their own fault because they treat artists like shit
          of course they will leave as soon as they can, and with the internet they can

        • Rusty Shackleford

          JeanbearTheImmasculator you didn’t ever read the link you posted did you. The link you provided doesn’t even support piracy as a cause of the RIAA losing money. It in fact labels the increased tendency for people to buy singles as opposed full albums, which the RIAA makes more money off full album sales as opposed to an albums worth of singles, the reason for the decline in revenue. So it would be best not to throw random links around without checking them.

        • JeanbearTheImmasculator

          In response to Rusty.

          You clearly didn’t read the article. While it does say that single sales have risen more than album sales, it did say that digital sales didn’t offset the loss from piracy.

          “Downloaded albums & singles have grown nicely, but we’ve already established that is not nearly enough to offset the loss of the physical equivalents.”

          Every chart shows that sales are down.
          The only chart that goes up is comparing the sales of formats. But overall the money is down and out.

        • Rusty Shackleford

          @JeanbearTheImmasculator
          And it seems you didn’t even read my comment. I never said that digital sales offset the, non-existent, loss from piracy I was only saying that the link you posted in no way contributed the loss of profits to piracy.

          Also in the quote you used:
          “Downloaded albums & singles have grown nicely, but we’ve already established that is not nearly enough to offset the loss of the physical equivalents.”

          The loss of physical equivalents doesn’t just mean piracy it also includes people who only buy music digitally, most people these days. The CD is a dying format the sooner the record labels realize that and move on the better for them.

          You need to remember that all this just includes the RIAA and the record labels and the people who matter in the music industry, the artists who make the music, have been making more money than ever from concerts and merchandise, both things that the record labels make a fraction of compared to album sales.

          So in short yes the RIAA and record labels are losing on poor physical media sales and single digital sales, which only a small percent of that even goes to the artist, but the people who actually make the music are doing better than ever.

        • JeanbearTheImmasculator

          See you aren’t reading at all. There is a loss due to piracy. The charts show it. And the quote I gave you says it exactly. Yes digital sales are up. But sales are down across the board. They are losing money. Indy labels are part of the RIAA for the most part as well. As soon as you start distributing you are a part of it. You have to remove yourself a lot of the time.
          Sales are down across the board. And the artists wouldn’t have a problem with illegal downloading if this wasn’t a problem. No artists likes illegal downloading. It’s just one of those things that if you speak out against it right now you’ll be ostracized. Every artist would RATHER you buy their music. They are musicians, not fashion designers. And most if not all are annoyed with the self entitled idea that their music isn’t worth anything because people equate music with plastic and not hardwork and service. That the bands owe the listener something for spending years making their art and entertaining everyone.

        • Fredrika

          > “There is a loss due to piracy. The charts show it.”

          Just because someone manufactures numbers and then draw charts with those numbers does not mean that piracy actually causes any harm? The Riaa’s numbers have been proves false or tempered with over and over again, and Riaa have a clear interest in a certain outcome with their numbers, so they have no credibility.

          However, there have been a number of independent scientific studies done over the last ten years, and not one single one of those have been able to prove that piracy actually causes any harm.

          So until you come up with scientific evidence, performed by an independent entity, your claim that piracy causes harm is nothing more than an irrelevant claim.

          > “But sales are down across the board.”

          As they should be, an incompetent industry shouldn’t make any sales on the free market.

          > ” Indy labels are part of the RIAA for the most part as well.”

          Most part? Care to produce any numbers that reveal exactly how large/small part?

          > “And the artists wouldn’t have a problem with illegal downloading if this wasn’t a problem.”

          Please stop lying, Artists don’t have a problem with illegal downloading, artists currently make money money than ever before, most likely thanks to illegal downloading. If any artist would be so ignorant that ha claims to have a problem with it, it most likely depends on Riaa having filled his heads with lies about piracy and their imaginary losses.

          > “No artists likes illegal downloading.”

          Because you say so?

          > “Every artist would RATHER you buy their music.”

          You can not buy music, how ignorant are you? You can buy goods and services, and the music lovers currently buy more of those than ever before, which has lead to the total revenues in the music industry currently being higher than ever before, which has lead to the artists currently making more money than ever before.

          > “And most if not all are annoyed with the self entitled idea that their music isn’t worth anything because people equate music with plastic and not hardwork and service.”

          Music have never had any economical value, if you take a basic course in economics you would learn this indisputable fact pretty quick.

          > “That the bands owe the listener something for spending years making their art and entertaining everyone.”

          And what delusion of grandeur do you suffer from if you believe that anyone owes them anything because they chose of their own free will to invest time and money into their entrepreneurship, and than fails to sell anything? That’s not how the free market works. But maybe you have a problem with the free market Maybe you advocate communism?

        • Rusty Shackleford

          From now on I’m just going to call you Steve, fans of The Lonely Island will know why.

          No the quote you spouted has nothing to do with piracy all it say is that digital downloads are not enough to offset the loss of the physical equivalents. What that says is that the amount of digital downloads is not enough to offset the amount of CDs people used to buy. If you want to be the RIAA you could use piracy as an excuse for that. More likely it is just that people are buying less full albums in favor of singles they like. Which could also be attributed to the state of the economy, people want to save money and spending a few dollars on some songs you like looks way better then $15-$20 for a whole album where you might not like every song. Also as I said before the CD is a dying medium and people will be buying less of them in favor for digital.

          As for artists I’m sure they would RATHER you pay for their music but I’m sure they would gladly give up the 5 cents they would get from an album sale if they knew they would get the $10 or so from you buying a concert ticket. It is notoriously known that artists get next to nothing from album sales and that concert tickets and merchandising is where they make the big bucks.

          Sure the RIAA and record labels may think they’re going broke, because really even if sales are down they’re still making millions, they’re not and the only people that actually matter in the music industry, the ones that actually make music and don’t sit in some office raking in millions for doing nothing but handing the artist a pen and a contract, the artists are making plenty of money.

        • JeanbearTheImmasculator

          The fact that you think labels don’t do anything proves you’re an idiot. Go tell Trent Reznor that labels don’t do anything and he’d be better off without. Do it seriously. Go tell him he’s losing money by doing that. Do it.

          The economy excuse is only convenient. The charts clearly show a drop in all revenue at the start of napster. Way before the recession.

          Not all labels only pay their artists 5 cents a cd. There are plenty of good labels out there who pay their artists well and support them well and even they are feeling the wrath of the self entitled downloaders.

          It is also well known that artists are losing tour profits to labels and other entities as the money owed isn’t being recouped in album singles sales.

          My problem is not with cd’s on the way out. The problem is with piracy. Not paying. If people payed for the music they enjoyed there would be no problem. But that is not the case. People are pirating their music and not showing their appreciation. Maybe YOU do. But the vast majority of people don’t. Hence the charts. Piracy is affecting the music industry in negative ways. Legal downloading is good. You are paying for a product. You have no right to decide whether other people deserve money. If you don’t want to pay, don’t take their product. Especially with the streaming services available.

        • Fredrika

          > “It is also well known that artists are losing tour profits to labels and other entities as the money owed isn’t being recouped in album singles sales.”

          It is well known that artist currently make more money than ever before.

          > “The problem is with piracy. Not paying.”

          Since you sell nothing of economical worth, there’s really nothing to buy or pay for.

          > “If people payed for the music they enjoyed there would be no problem.”

          Please try to accept reality and physiological and economical facts, ok? People have never paid for music, because it’s impossible. Consumers can only pay for goods or services, check consumer legislation if you don’t believe me, and music constitutes neither.

          > People are pirating their music and not showing their appreciation.”

          Please stop lying, people currently spend more money on the music industry than ever before. They most certainly show their appreciation.

          > “Piracy is affecting the music industry in negative ways.”

          No, the music industry most likely benefits from piracy, that’s why they’re currently making more money than ever before. Or have you still not learned the difference between the music industry and the recording industry?

          > “Legal downloading is good.”

          That’s why the Pirate Parties are trying to legalize it, which is currently close to happening in the worlds biggest economy. Because filesharing is good.

          > “You are paying for a product.”

          Wow, for once you got it right, and not claiming that you pay for music.

          > “You have no right to decide whether other people deserve money.”

          On the free market other people, as in self chosen entrepreneurs, only deserve money if they manages to sell something. If they don’t sell something because the consumer instead went to a competitive service, they deserve nothing, That’s how the free market works.

          But maybe you have a problem with the free market? Maybe you advocate communism or a planned economy, where free market rules don’t apply?

          > “If you don’t want to pay, don’t take their product.”

          People filesharing are not taking anything? They are manufacturing copies themselves instead of buying them to, as any sane capitalist would, save money. Manufacturing is not taking. Do you have a problem with capitalism and sane financial reasoning?

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          When you can take a picture of my stuff and make a copy of your own materials, I daresay you are welcome to it.

          Before we go on and inform you that you just failed kindergarten-level legal knowledge, let me be the first to tell you that copying information is something other than what you compare it with, which is instead called burglary, trespassing and theft.

          The difference is profound. Your argument basically means that if I let a friend or aquaintance copy a CD’s worth of songs I’m guilty of the equivalent of burglaring the house of the artist.

          That, good sir, not only means you just fell off your moral ground, but also that you are, deliberately or out of staggering ignorance, spouting falsehoods.

          Oh, especially regarding this tidbit which is especially incriminating:

          “Because again, sales are down across the board.”

          Every actual market study begs to differ. CD sales are down, yes, digital sales are up, and as a whole the revenue reported by the content industry keeps on breaking records.

          Do you count the loss of vinyl and tape cassette sales as lost revenue as well? Because that might as well be the case, given your previous rhetoric.

        • Piracy laws are absurd

          I think the analogy is wrong here. You can share a copy of my stuff with your community and likewise, I’ll share a copy of your stuff with my own.

          I think that sounds a bit more realistic.

    • icec0ld

      Never-mind the facts. Now that statistics spit in your face you ignore them. Typical.

    • Anyone

      you still haven’t learned that copying is not stealing?

      stop trolling

    • Embrace Change

      It’s not like shoplifting at all. Shoplifters don’t copy things. Smarten up retard.

      • Azrael

        Shoplifters sometimes copy things, but they don’t get arrested for it because it’s not a crime. ;)

      • tigerkarp

        I’ts simpler than that, he’s comparing something legal vs illegal. The analogy is sound and you’re the retard.

        • PessimiStick

          Incorrect. Comparing two dissimilar illegal acts does not make a good analogy.

        • Dirty_Bear

          “Incorrect. Comparing two dissimilar illegal acts does not make a good analogy.”

          They aren’t all that dissimilar though. One is a method of obtaining tangible items of value, illegally. The other is a method of obtaining intangible items of value, illegally.

          It was as sensible analogy that seems to have spawned a swarm of irrational responses.

        • Clean_Bear

          Dirty_Bear: “They aren’t all that dissimilar though. One is a method of obtaining tangible items of value, illegally. The other is a method of obtaining intangible items of value, illegally.

          It was as sensible analogy that seems to have spawned a swarm of irrational responses.”

          With the same reasoning, driving slightly over the speed limit and killing a bunch of random people with a machine gun aren’t dissimilar either. They’re both about breaking the law. Why bother looking at all the other influences when you can suffice with one? Clearly a speeder deserves the same punishment as the serial killer.

          If you didn’t get it by now: Your reasoning is one of the seven sins in research. You’re making a biassed conclusion by comparing items that can’t be compared without a proper control (which you didn’t provide).

        • tigerkarp

          Yes we’ve all heard piracy != stealing. No one is saying that. The point is that you cannot justify an illegal act by doing something legal as compensation. Just as saving 2 guys doesn’t give you 1 free kill. YOU might justify things this way but it doesn’t make any difference at all in a legal matter.

        • Fredrika

          > “Yes we’ve all heard piracy != stealing. No one is saying that.

          On the contrary every single anti-pirate, copyright troll and Mafiaa lobbyist says exactly that, and they have for the last 100 years or so.

          > “The point is that you cannot justify an illegal act by doing something legal as compensation.”

          Filesharing does not have to be justified? The only thing that has to be justified is the prohibitions in law, and in this case the copyright monopoly’s intrusion into people property rights, and the free market rules. Since that justification has failed, people do as they desire. They don’t have to justify why they should be able to manufacture copies with the equipment they have in front of themselves, you should justify why they shouldn’t be allowed to.

        • DABears

          Clean bear does not understand logic, or the fallacy he is embracing. Maybe if he read lemmon or took a class he wouldn’t appear on the net to be such a Moroni.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          No, the argument isn’t sound. If it were you are now also saying that Gandhi should have rotted in jail for his actions in South Africa under Apartheid.

          Laws are always subject to evaluation. This is what in essence makes a law prohibiting murder sound and one prohibiting you from carrying an icecream cone in your pocket unsound.

        • austinhamman

          tigerkarp: you are conflating illegal and immoral.
          many times they are the same, if something is immoral (and especially if it causes harm) it should be illegal
          if it is illegal but not immoral, it should not be illegal
          if it is legal but immoral, it should not be legal

          i, and many here, are saying that filesharing is not immoral, and that it does not cause harm, and thus should NOT be illegal.
          the area of debate is “does it cause harm to society” and i think the evidence is clear: no, in fact society loves it. so generally if something does not cause harm to society, then it is not immoral.

      • JeanbearTheImmasculator

        Please post a copy of your credit information. Your credit card number. The expiry date. And the confirmation code on the back. It’s a 3 digit number by your signature. I don’t want your credit card. Only a copy of it. It isn’t stealing that way. I’ll only be taking a copy of your money too. I won’t be stealing any physical money from you. It’ll all be digital. Thanks in advance. Also if you can post a copy of your drivers license and social security number. I only want copies to share with the community. Not the physical copies. You won’t lose any money or anything as long as it’s a copy.

        • Fredrika

          > “Please post a copy of your credit information. Your credit card number. The expiry date. And the confirmation code on the back. It’s a 3 digit number by your signature. I don’t want your credit card. Only a copy of it.”

          Do you not understand the difference between publicly published information, such as creative works, and private information?

          > “It isn’t stealing that way.”

          Manufacturing copies through filesharing isn’t the same thing as stealing, that wont change because of any comparison you try to come up with.

          > “I’ll only be taking a copy of your money too. I won’t be stealing any physical money from you. It’ll all be digital.”

          Do you not understand the concept of intangible property, such as digital money in a bank? It’s unique, it has scarcity, so once it’s gone, it’s gone, and that is called theft. Those logical circumstances does not apply to creative works, or manufacturing copies.

          > “Also if you can post a copy of your drivers license and social security number. I only want copies to share with the community. Not the physical copies. You won’t lose any money or anything as long as it’s a copy.”

          Wheter or not any one loses money does not change the fact that manufacturing copies isn’t stealing, and that nothing goes missing as a result of it. Your post is one long illogical rant that proves nothing other that your ignorance.

        • JeanbearTheImmasculator

          In response to Fredrika.

          Your money is digital. It can be infinitely reproduced if you find a way to do it. Just like cd’s. There are severe laws in place to prevent people from doing it though with severe consequences. Why can a person go to jail for life for copying something thats digital? Whats the big deal? It’s a copy right? It’s not real right? Yet you can go to prison for life for doing it. You have a point they should come up with laws to prevent people from infintely reproducing it. Maybe with stiff penalties. The only reason money in the bank is intangible is because of the laws set inplace to inforce that ideology. The reason your money in your bank is real is because you worked for it. Just like an album. There are hundreds of hours behind it. But in the bank you have a digital copy of money. which can be copied an infinite amount of times. The reason you don’t is because there are laws against it.

          Also you are right. No money is put into production of music and advertising. That is all done for free. Music is made and recorded for free, and advertised for free and managed for free. That is a very valid point. No money is lost.

          So the pirates should be charged with forgery or fraud. I can accept that.

        • Fredrika

          > “Your money is digital. It can be infinitely reproduced if you find a way to do it.”

          No. That’s not how the banking system works.

          > “Why can a person go to jail for life for copying something thats digital? Whats the big deal?”

          The big deal with most crimes is that the actions cause an actual measurable harm to society of some sort. With non-profit copyright infringements however, no scientific evidence exists after 15 years of filesharing that supports the alleged thesis that it causes any harm to neither society, the economy, culture, creators, the culture industry’s current record revenues or the goal with copyright.

          That certain monopoly holders claim that they suffer harm does not necessarily mean anything to society or culture as a whole. Since they sells products that no longer holds any value to society, they should by all economical rules be relegated to the graveyard of antique obsolete industries.

        • JeanbearTheImmasculator

          In repsonse to fredricka

          The reason the banking industry doesn’t work that way is the LAWS. You can make a million dollars photocopy at home. The LAWS prevent you.

          The people hurt by digital theft is the people who invested in the music. And the Artists.

          There are no record profits by the way.
          http://www.businessinsider.com/these-charts-explain-the-real-death-of-the-music-industry-2011-2

        • Fredrika

          > “The reason the banking industry doesn’t work that way is the LAWS. You can make a million dollars photocopy at home. The LAWS prevent you.”

          Are you going Judge Dredd on the debate? The law must be obeyed out of principle? That’s not an argument, that circular reasoning, or fascism if you actually try to enforce it no matter the cost.

          > “The people hurt by digital theft is the people who invested in the music.

          They are not hurt. The have their health in perfect place and the same money in their pocket they had before somebody manufactured a copy, as they have afterwards.

          > “And the Artists.”

          Please stop lying. The artists are currently making more money than ever before.

          http://christianengstrom.wordpress.com/2009/11/14/record-companies-lose-artists-gain-from-file-sharing/

          http://christianengstrom.wordpress.com/2010/09/22/artists-make-more-money-in-file-sharing-age-than-before-it/

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Are you seriously trying to tell us that a media file is the same as a credit card? If so, then clearly you are an idiot.

          Your argument has the relevance of the tantrum thrown by a five-year old who can’t understand why they can’t have a real horse since they already got one made of plastic, from Mattel.

          What you are saying is that a song burned onto a CD and then sold is the equivalent of the full account information possessed by a credit card?

          Yea, I get it. You are trolling. In a way which makes even NTP look relatively sane. Would this be “Anon” by any chance?

    • Guest

      Actually it would justify shoplifting.

      If shoplifters are generating $600 for your store while regular customers are only generating $500, then you would be an utter fool to have the shoplifters arrested.

      Whether something is illegal doesn’t matter anyway, it only matters if it’s harmful.

      • http://profiles.google.com/zerianis10 Christopher Kidwell

        Unfortunately, most people fail to reason that out because they have no critical thinking skills.

      • Curtis

        As abhorrent that statement would be to the “rational” thinker, one must consider that capitalism has become the default unit of measurement for success.

        If shoplifting generating profit disgusts you, it might be time to research the funding justifications for various non-government organizations and the way in which lobbyists influence their fiscal decisions.

        These are the traps of the free market.

      • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

        Even if a pirate copy is worth 100% of the price (the person would have bought it otherwise), the harm is a lot more to the copyright owner than that 100%. This is due to the cumulative effect of copying.

        Example:

        Only 10% would have bought the original if an illegal copy was not available. 100 people downloads and at the same time seeding to another 10 000 people etc. A few downloads can through the cumulative effect result in say 10 million downloads. Even if only 10% would have bought the original, it’s still a loss of 1 million originals.

        • Fredrika

          > “Even if a pirate copy is worth 100% of the price (the person would have bought it otherwise), the harm is a lot more to the copyright owner than that 100%. This is due to the cumulative effect of copying.”

          Which no scientific evidence can prove is negative, on the contrary, everything points in the direction that it is positive.

          > “Only 10% would have bought the original if an illegal copy was not available. 100 people downloads and at the same time seeding to another 10 000 people etc. A few downloads can through the cumulative effect result in say 10 million downloads. Even if only 10% would have bought the original, it’s still a loss of 1 million originals.”

          Only 90% would have bought the original if illegal copying wasn’t available. 100 people downloads and at the same time seeding to another 10 000 people etc. A few downloads can through the cumulative effect result in say 10 million downloads, which in turns means that the fan base has multiplied enormously, which leads to a much higher possibility of sales.

          You do realise that the latter scenario is the one that takes place in reality, according to all numbers that actually exists, and that your scenario only exists in your head?

          > “Even if only 10% would have bought the original, it’s still a loss of 1 million originals.”

          You can not lose what you never had. Is simple logics to much for you?

          There’s no such thing as a lost sale, there’s only failed entrepreneurs that fails to sell, and they deserve no money on the free market. Do you not understand how the free market works? Are you against It? Are you advocating communism, where free market rules shouldn’t apply?

        • LlamaPie

          Nobody lost anything, the artist gained fans, who then went to his concerts and some bought the legitimate copies. If they didn’t have the ability to listen to the artist beforehand there’s no way in hell he could have gathered 10 million sales. Think bigger, man, it’s the RIAA, who’s butthurt not the artists, every decent artist want’s their music to be listened to, he doesn’t care about the sales figures if he still generates enough profit for future projects and drugs.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          That’s a nice piece of hogwash. Math is useless if the numbers you want to prove are irrelevant to the algorithm you use.

          To begin with it’s already been conclusively proven a number of times that your purported “lost sale” does not exist. Meaning that your math exercise is as relevant as if you were trying to use the number of unicorns remaining in the wild in order to estimate how many virgins exist in a given nation.

          Your “lost sale” would be the unicorn in this case. It’s a mythological animal whose existence has been summarily falsified by any scientific study thrown at it.

          Now IF a lost sale even existed and IF it had any correlation to the number of downloads, then you would be in a bad spot indeed – because even if just every downloader uploaded what he got to two other people, the imaginary “lost sales” would very quickly exceed the population of humans living on planet earth.

          Math, empirical evidence and common sense disprove both your argument and your method. Again.

      • Chronoss2008

        smoke crack much what the fuck is parent poster talking about
        taking candy bars = they gone
        digitally copying for ones self the original = still fucking there.

        anyhow get bent im a go hunt me a nice assualt causing bodily harm onb a ally of the mpaa/riaa

    • Wallace

      False.

      If shoplifters bought more products than non-shoplifters to the degree that it made up for the loss of physical merchandise, stores would take that into account. Stores offer deep discounts on items all the time that cause the store to lose money on the sale. They’re choosing to give you the item plus cash in the hopes of stimulating more sales.

      Since the losses from “piracy” are zero, the threshold for profiting from it is much lower than for profiting from shoplifting or even deep discounting. So why the lies?

      Also, why pretend that “piracy’ is illegal since most types of what the RIAA calls “piracy” are legal? That’s a big difference between “piracy” and shoplifting – shoplifting is against the law and will get you arrested.

    • Andrew Lee

      Except one thing copying does not physically remove the merchandise.

      • Who

        hm…never seen it put in that manner. nicely said.

    • Who

      have you ever looked @ the definition of THEFT/STEAL?
      shoplifting IS THEFT/STEALING as you have NOT been given the item from the shop to take home.
      downloading is NOT THEFT/STEALING as the up-loader is letting you have the content directly from them.
      and its clear you don’t know the definition of Piracy ether. so you think its what the RIAA says it is? LOL you think the DMCA is true LAW? LOL do you know what the A stands for?

      “an illegal action can’t be justified by another legal action” tell that to the RIAA.
      snooping in on internet connections and monitoring network traffic is a illegal action *its called invasion of privacy* and that does NOT justify suing people for so called profit loss/so called piracy.

      • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

        It’s not stealing but with similar (but reduced) effect on the copyright owner.

        According to the Swedish Mediavision study, based on interviews with the downloaders, they would have bought the stuff they downloaded in 25% of the cases if not available through illegal download. Tthat’s a huge loss even if it’s not 100%

        You can’t ignore it just because it’s not exactly like stealing.

        • Sdkafjlfjsd

          That study is controversial.

          Ignoring it is perhaps not the solution, but even trying to compare it to stealing is wrong. They are different things.

          When I download a song to try it out, and find out I don’t like it, I simply don’t listen to the song anymore nor buy the song at all. There is one of many examples of how copying does not necessarily mean a loss of profits.

          The crying is rather about the statistically probable potential loss of profits.

        • Who

          “It’s not stealing but with similar (but reduced) effect on the copyright owner”

          ok so if I buy a cupcake and decide to share it with you I am hurting the copy right holder and so are you because of a lost sale? and don’t say that that’s different. because its not.
          sure people can make a copy of a cupcake and sell it, but wouldn’t that be infringing on the copyright holder? o that’s right food isn’t protected by copy rights because that’s just stupid, so is the DMCA and so is the IPA, both have FAILED.
          but if you stole ether one from a store that’s a criminal offense. they make billions a year on music sales, so how is making a copy of a CD and sharing it really hurting them again?

        • Anyone

          a company offering anti-piracy tools says that piracy is a problem
          what a shocker

          try finding an independent study that shows piracy is actually harmful

        • Anon

          Yes, you can ignore it.

          Stealing is when you take what someone else owns, leaving them without.
          Sharing makes a copy, & the owner still has the original so they have not stolen anything at all. Piracy is stealing, but sharing is not stealing, so it is not piracy.

          Just because there is potential to profit, doesn’t mean that it IS profit, as the same potential exists that they will NOT buy, but listen to another artist instead.

          Just because there is potential does NOT entitle RIAA to treat anyone like a criminal & steal someone’s hard earned $$$ with the support of the law.

          Wrong is wrong, & stealing is a crime. RIAA should be in jail for stealing from the people. Sharing doesn’t steal a thing, & I have not found anyone yet capable of explaining how sharing removes the original copy & leaves the owner without (theft).

          If you sincerely believe that because the potential top profit exists, that profit IS your right, then I suggest you watch your back. Everything that you say has been said before, & I am sure that you are plagiarizing/breaking copyright law every day with the things you do with your iPod, iPad, PC, written/verbal communications.

          You want to live by the sword? Then prepare to die by it!

          The underlying theme behind this all is GREED!!!
          The artists/RIAA have no intention of working hard, just profiting at all costs to their fellow man. I see a problem with producing 1 CD/DVD, then expecting people to pay you millions for all the easy copies you make via automated machinery.

          Much different than working a 9-5 job where you actually have to work. I know, because I played drums professionally in a Rock band, & I had people constantly telling me I was really good. But I never penalized people, or told them you have to buy from us.

          If you have concerts, & you treat people with respect, they will do the same to you. Treat them like dogs, & your going down!!!

          The love of $$$ money $$$ is the ROOT of ALL evil.

          Remember that, & next time RIAA tells you it’s wrong to download a song without paying with an arm + a leg, ask yourself if they would still be saying it is wrong without financial motivation.

          Example: Killing is a crime, whether money is involved or not. It’s ALWAYS a wrong, not just sometimes.

          RIAA only justifies their actions because of $$$.
          They are an example of morals based on $$$.

          If it makes $$$, it’s immoral to pay anyone but their fat wallet.

      • JeanbearTheImmasculator

        You are still in possession of stolen property though. You don’t need to steal it but you are supporting the thief. Which is also a crime.

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Again with the amauteurish bullshit about legal terms?

          No, If I have a bought a CD and share it with a friend of mine, said friend is in no way suddenly in possession of stolen property.

          If that friend in turn shares it with one of his friend, neither of them is in the possession of stolen property.

          If I had broken into someones database, copied the information which was there, and destroyed every copy of the database in the possession of said person, then i might make a case of the information i possessed was gained via theft.

          So far I’ve read a number of your comments and you haven’t gotten ONE single statement correct. That’s actually impressive as you could have flipped a coin and gotten more accurate results on any survey.

    • Nejtillpirater

      Of course you agree with the RIAA! You work for these type of asshole!

      ASSHOLE!!!

    • Gbsr

      you do realise that online piracy is just a copy of the product, right?
      you can’t compare physical theft to digital theft as there is no property being stolen, just copies of several numberstrings.

      • Scary_Devil_Monastery

        Oh, he does. He’s spent four years trolling swedish pro-pirate blogs, proving himself an endless source of guilt-by-association, irrelevant comparisons, deliberate falsehoods and erronous conclusions.

        And he’s gotten the same comeuppance from all those blogs, most of the visitors of whom he has now firmly convinced that pro-copyright advocates are insane.

        Some of his posts I actually use for pro-pirate propaganda since they make such a wonderful backdrop to a rational argument written by Doctorew or Geist.

        • Curtis B

          Dastardly disingenuous.

      • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

        Not *just* a copy. Also a potential loss of income.

        According to the Swedish Mediavision study, based on interviews with the downloaders, they would have bought the stuff they downloaded in 25% of the cases if not available through illegal download. Tthat’s a huge loss even if it’s not 100%

        • Who

          we com back to the cupcake again, others make cupcakes and sell them, so that’s a potential loss of income for the ANY one trying to sell a cupcake.
          but again that’s just stupid to think that way.
          the same reasoning can apply to ANYTHING.
          it ALL comes down to GREED.

        • Fredrika

          > “According to the Swedish Mediavision study..”

          You mean that study which was performed by a profit seeking entity, order by a entity that had in interest in a certain outcome in the study, the study which was so full of flaws and couldn’t stand up to any scrutiny, which was why it was never published, because it was a huge joke?

          Yeah, only a complete idiot would reference that study. What’s your excuse?

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          You mean the “study” performed by a pro-copyright corporation which is making a living selling antipirate tools? Gosh.

          Well, every study performed on actual market research tells a different story.

          I’d say either mediavision’s study is wrong, or the one performed on behalf of the dutch government is. I believe the answer to be simple. Let’s peer review both and check the outcome.

          Oh, wait, the dutch study IS peer-reviewed, isn’t it…?

          Seriously, NTP, when will you learn that posting gibberish on any board where there are fact-finders will only get you burned?

    • Nonya

      you see Nej you are looking at it from the point of view of justifying piracy and you are right there is no justification for it. The issue here for most of us is about customer service, access to “culture” and believe it or not supporting artists.

      We want to be treated like customers we want good modern products where and when we want them and are more then willing to pay if some one is there to sell, if they are not, well we will go to where we can get or create the product we want.

      A lot of people want access to culture from other places, different versions of the same product, or to partake in a culture that has been priced out of our reach(students tend to be the most avid music listeners and tend to have the least money, how ever they are also the ones that find new bands and tell every one else what to listen to), this all falls under customer service, but is really about being part of a culture that is part of us.

      lastly fucked if Im gonna give my hard earned money to a record label that regularly steals from its artists on top of giving them less the 15% of the the money I pay to them. I’ll save my money and find great artists and go to their concerts and buy stuff that actually gets them money.

      PS Kunt Harald well put sir well put.

    • Viper

      Hey ass monkey. If I don’t have X to spend, then X doesn’t exist. So no X is lost.

      X=money.

      • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

        Not really. X to spend, X spent on beer, cars etc. Listening to commercial music and movies and putting the money (X) on other things instead.

        • Anyone

          yes, other things like concerts or band merchandise

        • Scary_Devil_Monastery

          Which would, in your terms, make every hobbyist carpenter a “thief” since they do not rely on IKEA for their furniture, creating “lost sales”.

          As usual, your argumental “logic” does not fail to disappoint.

    • diuda

      You also just cant compare physical loss with digital loss. That’s the thing which makes this impossible for some to understand.

      So in other words, in digital world, illegal action in this case CAN BE justified by legal action, and should be, and I mean if I download an album and I like it, I will support the artist and buy it.

      I just hate RIAA and other lobbyist scumbags for eating others’ bread. In the world they would not exist, things would be more lighter. Theyre only ruining peoples’ lives.

    • 3498s

      A legal action isn’t an immoral action and legalizing an immoral action doesn’t make it moral. Spit out the teat of your oppressors and try thinking for yourself. Downloading isn’t “shoplifting” you tool.

    • O’hurley

      However, shoplifting and piracy are not the same thing. If someone steals something from a store then no one else can get that item, but if someone pirates something the item is still there. Piracy isn’t stealing, its making a copy. Imagine your car being stolen but its still there in your driveway. Also, people who pirate use sharing to discover new things and if they find a band that they enjoy, they normally show support and go out and buy a CD or concert tickets or merchandise, which this survey proves.

    • Guest

      Aw, did having to agree with the RIAA and watch them eat humble pie make your dick sad, Nej? Don’t worry; the only dick you need is the industry phallus anyway!

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Miller/100003973844837 Mike Miller

      Downloading isn’t shoplifting. It costs the music industry absolutely $0, and no one can prove otherwise.

      Any figure thrown out by the RIAA is a complete fabrication.

      Just because something is illegal doesn’t make it immoral. When people sheltered runaway slaves and hide jews from the nazis, were their actions justified?

      I’m waiting for the RIAA propaganda video “You Wouldn’t Hide a Jew.”

    • Youtwat

      It’s not stealing, you fucking moron. Shoplifting..is

  • Boxxy

    I download a shit ton of music illegally, and I buy a shit ton of music legally too. Much more so than my friends’ who do not.

    I don’t buy less BECAUSE I pirate. I pirate what I never would have bought, and buy what I want regardless of the costless alternative.

  • NewClear

    Sorry RIAA, your analogy is good but there is a lot more to learn. I will buy music again when you stop backstabbing real talented, legitimate artists by price fixing and withholding such high percentages of profits from them. And also, please stop shoving the same crap down our throats every year. Pop singers today suck and have no talent.

    - Best regards,

    Everyone but you.

  • Steve Smith

    Everyone knew this like 5 years ago, but good luck telling RIAA that. if they don’t get it by now they never will.

  • Anonymous

    ‘some file-sharers become more engaged music fans because they have access to music they wouldn’t be able to afford otherwise’

    dont agree with this at all. i think it should read:

    ‘some file-sharers become more engaged music fans because they have access to music they wouldn’t be able to FIND OR HEAR OF otherwise’

    did anyone actually expect the RIAA or a representative to accept the truth? in the corner for you then! and as for NPD’s Russ Crupnick, he’s obviously been brainwashed and taught to speak the same sort of shit as the DoJ does in the Mega case. basically, if it sounds right, it must be right, so we’ve got to do whatever it takes to make out it’s really not right! what bollocks!!

  • JOHN MAIDEN

    Maybe there would be fewer “pirates” if they would stop acting like the witch hunters, book burners, Nazis, and Stalinists we’re supposed to hate, comprehend supply and demand for once in their piggish little lives, stop burying true innovation, let the people who actually did the work earn their money and ownership, and stop cramming shitty music down our throats. Just saying.

  • Chronoss2008

    then you have me
    i dled my music 15 years ago and so little now it dont matter to me

    im tv and movies man…..
    and ya know what seeing how sci fi is so scarce i decided to hell with it ill just make my own stuff and amuse myself

    fuck em all and let there greedy economy figure it out ROFL

  • José Reyes

    So they just ADMITTED the original study was correct? Now THAT’S interesting.

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      They more or less have to. Peer-reviewed studies performed by independent creditable science centers have been published for about ten years and by now it’s become common knowledge.

      It just isn’t possible for the RIAA to fly in the face of truth anymore and claim they lose more in sales than what the entire earth produces in GNP…times 42.

  • Liam Jh

    Forgive me if I am wrong, but artists get a larger percentage of revenue from merchandise and ticket sales than they do from music sales or the % left after the corporations have skimmed there (cough) costs.
    So are the RIAA are against independent artists making more profit % for themselves?, or infact are they acting in the best interests corporate profit?

    I suppose if you have enough money you could buy (lobby) the politicians and just change the laws to suit yourselves.

    • Anyone

      of course they are against independent artists
      the RIAA is only making less money because artists are leaving them, not because of piracy

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      Yes. They are against independent artists. Any venue allowing an artist another distribution channel than themselves is, after all, a competitor.

  • cgimusic

    So what they are saying is that, regardless of the reason, their best customers are pirates. Seems to me it would be stupid to treat your best customers like criminals by restricting the content they do buy and suing them for their piracy. Obviously the clever folks at the RIAA have figured out some reason why abusing the very people who keep your outdated business model alive is a good thing.

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  • Anyone

    of course people spend less on music overall nowadays, internet and VPN has to be paid
    if they’d stop their silly lawsuits the money for the VPN would be freed up

  • joey333

    once you get a sweet taste of that sweet Looseness flac music ,you cant go back to 128kbs or 320 kbs

    • Anonymouse

      *cough* lossless *cough*

    • ElitistAudioPhucker

      FLAC? Pft! I won’t listen to anything unless it’s at least 48Bit 96KHz uncompressed 5:1 surround audio. Once you’ve listened to that you’ll never go back to that nasty ‘lossless’ crap.

      • Who

        Um…lossless is uncompressed. 48bit sound @ 96khz is just the bit depth and bit rate.

        • Anyone

          lossless IS compressed
          it just doesn’t remove any information like MP3 does

      • Sitruc Enyab

        Pft, amateur hour over here.

        I’d make sure the audio came from a newly-opened vinyl played on a direct-drive servo driven turntable (with PWM control) and recorded using provably mono-discreet ADCs on a firewire interface.

        Why firewire? Because DMA. You want your checksums from your ADCs to make sure you’re getting the right data. And you want them in real time.

        But you’re a real audiophile. You’ve spent tens of thousands of dollars on an LG surround sound system with the frequency response of a downs-syndrome goldfish and more gold-plated Monster(TM) cable from your Local Retailer(TM) than you know what to do with.

        If you’re going to be pedantic, why not build a custom DSP interface that checksums each frame from the ADC. Hell, while you’re there, why not FDM (frequency division multiplex) a 20hz-20khz signal into 8 discreet channels, lower the bandwidth of each of the ADC modules and increase the resolution to 384bit throw and throw an FPGA with some custom DSP and signal processing logic in there for good measure.

        Dear Audiophiles who pontificate over FLAC – you’re not there yet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%E2%80%93Hartley_theorem

        Come back to me when you are,

        Regards,
        Nobody Ever.

  • james

    Won’t piracy end when everything is digital in the future with no more physical media and everything is streamed? Back in the day, I used to download mp3s but for a long time found that to be a chore and a hassle, and haven’t downloaded anything in a while. I prefer to have access to more music and search collections that I probably never heard of.

    Same with movies. I have a DVD, BD here and there for uncommon movies, but prefer browsing collections and streaming from services.

    I even heard video games are going to be streamed in the future. So yeah, I don’t know how this future without physical media would affect people. Thoughts?

    • Anyone

      there are videogame streaming services already

    • Anon

      I don’t see how streaming would end piracy. Well, streaming should offer a better service than physical, that would surely increase sales (and decrease piracy, but what does that matter?). But while there still is a paywall, piracy will always exist.

      If you want to end piracy, then you have to provide a better service than pirates. That way all P2Pers will become your customers instead, since it’s now the best way of getting their content.

      For example, what made me stop torrenting south park episodes was http://www.southparkstudios.com offering free full episode streaming. Steam also diverted me away from piracy with games like Team Fortress 2, Left 4 Dead 2, Garry’s Mod, and others.

      But again, what matters is how much profits you’re making, not how many people are getting your stuff for free.

    • Anonymouse.

      Uptake will only happen when everyone has access to high speed unlimited download connections. Until then people will have to rely on physical media for their multi-gigabyte entertainment.

  • Blackeyedsqueeze

    I don’t care about music, I don’t care if people download it or not. I used to love music when I was younger, then they started to put all of these stupid reality tv music shows on tv, now I have zero taste for it.

    • BuddhaFacePalmed

      Don’t write off modern music just yet. Go online. Even a simple google for music would yield more and better music that the garbage that gets put up on MTV

      • Anyone

        MTV doesn’t play music anymore

  • Violated0

    Well this is sure the most productive thing I have ever seen the RIAA say but I only expect this is because no one around believes their fake propaganda reports any more meaning they now have to head back close to reality in the hope politicians start to believe them again.

    I can almost long for happy days of peace and love where the RIAA engage the hearts and minds of the public to promote and protect music.

    However I would have to be completely loopy to put any trust in these people when we can well see from decades of history what their true intentions are headed these days by SOPA, PIPA, ACTA, CETA, TPP(A) and more. Not to forget the endless streams of musicians they have screwed over just to protect their income.

    Nope the RIAA has to die or at minimum be removed from almost all power. I don’t even know why we use the RIAA word now when this is vastly dominated by UMG who have purchased almost everyone else.

  • icec0ld

    The music industry needs to have a good long hard look at itself if it thinks it’s most engaged consumers aren’t its best source of revenue.

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  • http://www.facebook.com/elton.robb Elton Robb

    I really think that the Music Industry should pay the artists more. They are the ones that do the work.

  • NaziAmerica

    Also, the current RIAA model is: every artist is worth the same. How else would you explain the relative same prices for a top10 chart artist and a complete unknown?

    • When

      Precisely. The seller really can’t determine the ‘value’ of something. They can try to set a price, but the actual ‘value’ (and hence selling point) is determined by the buyer/consumer. Simple economics. :)

  • Alyssa Blindy

    Why does it matter if the relationship is causal or not? It has been found that those who share music show more interest in music than those who do not. Whether filesharing promotes interest in music, interest in music promotes filesharing, or people who are interested in music tend to say, eat lots of fried chicken and those who eat fried chicken are a lot more likely to go on filesharing networks; why does it matter? It is a relationship and I simply cannot comprehend why it matters if it’s causal or not.
    That’s just my humble little opinion.

  • Dondilly

    Surely if you follow through with the RIAAs twisted logic and explaination of people who share more are more engaged in music and so buy more. The ultimate conclusion is that they would share more and buy nothing which will become a self fulfilling prophecy is they continue in their persecution of their best customers.

    Sharers buy more (CDs rather than inferior downloads) because they have been able to explore and identify what is worthy of purchase via p2p. They then buy on CD for best lossless quality.

    There is so much crap out there and many who buy without hearing first fe3l cheated by CDs with a couple of decent singles and 50 minutes of trash. This also explains why non P2Pers tend to download individual tracks not waste money on unheard album tracks.

    Now (however twisted) they have acknowledged the relationship between the more shared, the more purchased. The next step is for them to acknowledge that persecution of their key market is counter productive as are the headline grabbing cases they strive for about 15 yr sentences or students being kicked out of college and landing fines of a magnetude they have no hope of paying in their lifetime, they lose customers

  • Billco

    Oh look, the RIAA gets it backwards on purpose, yet again.

    The near-entirety of music I aggressively enjoy today, from merch to media to concert tickets to the (get this) record label I co-own, are a direct result of file sharing. Would I have discovered all this cool obscure music if I had to randomly buy it all at $20/hour from a music store, before even knowing I would like it ? No! I can tell you exactly where I’d be today: I’d still be listening to the same handful of Eurodance/trance albums I had in the 80′s, because Hip Hop and MTV aren’t my cup of tea (read: I’d have them all shot!).

    But no, I distinctly remember that sunny day in 1998, when some guy on IRC sent me a Zip file containing Slayer’s “Diabolus In Musica”, and thus began my journey into metal. That one download was the catalyst for a whole new chapter in my musical repertoire. Then years later, someone else turned me onto Ayreon, Amon Amarth and other foreign masterpieces, things to which I would never have been exposed via traditional channels.

    The RIAA needs to die in a fire. Their time has come and gone. Their long-con has been exposed for all to see, and they are obsolete. Meanwhile, my humble indie label stays local, makes a little money, helps real bands making real music break out without signing their lives away, and the fans are our family, not our fools.

    • Metalhead

      Ayreon FTW!!!

  • downunder

    I may download and share tv shows but I prob bought like $200 of software and apps for tablet in recent months. I buy heaps of stuff and support people i feel need supporting escp non greedy people (unlike the rich millionaire producers) I also have like $36000 of cds in the loft I dont use cos they are old annoying format take up too much space in the house (same with dvd-s and blu rays.. I dont need that old format.. – solid state is the new wave) I ripped them to mp3s etc to play on devices but I dont want neww music either.. I have enough to listen to already my favs (I also bought all their records before cds came out so they got paid twice!).. its called being with the times even if the tv industry isnt (by not providing world wide for starters) and over priced,, at 3 dollars an episode on itunes!

  • Gacek

    Tbh. after this article i changed my mind.
    I hope RIAA and others WILL succed in erasing piracy. Why? Simple:
    - It will make more room for artists who want to share their music.
    - Those artists are not bound by “do this or we will not sign contract” which will allow more fresh ideas to come out.
    - will allow Artits to take revenue for them. music industry will not steal it from artits anymore

    music bands can easily set up an open-source shop (for example Prestashop) and sell their music, also allowing people to buy or download it or donate.

    And by my shares and no-sharers divide into subgroups:
    sharer-collectioner – wants to buy cds, but want to get albums right after its out.
    sharer-tester – tests music, before buying it (probably biggest group)
    sharer-leech – want to get music, and can live without it, will switch to free music instead

    So after they erase piracy, sharer-tester type will stop buying music, cause he cant test it. sharer-colectionier will buy it anyway (however it can affect him so he buys less since he knows less bands)
    sharer-leech will not buy anyway

    no-sharers will not be affected by this

  • The_Strawbear

    TF, are you being deliberately dumb or actually dumb in failing to understand their argument up there/

    Because failing to understand a counter argument is something the RIAA do and are rightly lambasted for.

    Just going ‘eh’ is irksome and playing to the dumbest part of your audience who don’t need much encouragement.

    They’re saying (I believe) that as an engaged music fan I (hypothetically) now pirate $40 of music a year and buy $40′s worth, and if I didn’t pirate I’d buy $80′s worth. Which doesn’t follow at all, as I might only have $40 spare to spend on music.

    ——————————————-

    In actual fact, speaking personally, the digitization of music be it via itunes or pirate bay pretty much sucked out all the romance and interest in it I ever had.
    I went from buying vinyl in my early teens to having to squint at screenshots of album covers in my late 20′s.
    Where’s the fun in being able to get anything any time you want it. The thrill of it was always in the hunt and the bargain purchase, the one off purchase cos you liked the cover, the rare import you waited 3 weeks to get, the social aspect of it, leafing thru racks with friends at the weekends, the record fairs….

    Now it’s sit, click and dick all else.

    We value things less the less we have to work to attain them.

    • Guest

      Well said.

    • Guest

      You’re not seriously advocating that because people value things more the harder it is to get them, we should therefore eliminate close to every possible avenue of convenience and make consumer experiences convoluted and a bitch to navigate?

      Personally, while I’ve downloaded various games, I’ve also relished the opportunity to buy games when they come out and discuss them endlessly with my friends. My sister pre-orders CDs of artistes she likes.

      The ease of getting something does not automatically overwrite how much you value them. Your point, while somewhat logical, doesn’t make general sense.

  • Hosay

    “Are we saying that P2P file sharing promotes T-shirt sales, or show attendance? Of course not; that would be silly,” NPD’s Russ Crupnick writes.

    I really cannot see what is silly about this notion. I am living proof that this is a fact and so are at least half the people I know in my age group. I here a song a like, I download an album from the band, if I enjoy it I go to the show and may even buy a t-shirt.

    • Guest

      So, every band whose albums you download and like just happen, coincidentally, to tour in your area or close enough for you to go and see them? Amazeballs.

  • ThumbsUpThumbsDown

    What’s being bought under this system is Intellectual Property that is Corporate controlled in perpetuity; and, where both the Creative Artist and the Customer are routinely robbed by legally protected monopolist distributors whose costs of digital distribution are effectively Zero.

    Free Human Beings should not patronize this system with the purchase of even one dollar. What could be more politically effective than the Power of such a shutdown?

    Should we exult that “Pirates” are the Copyright monopolists’ best customers?

    Not if you don’t want those purchase billions to come back as new PIPAs, SOPAs, ACTAs, CISPAs, TPPs, and Six Strikes.

    Not if you don’t want a dictated, regimented Internet; a global Corporate Desktop, where your only “legal” function is to purchase mediocrity
    at an obscene premium.

    Not if the concentrating power of the State to deny citizens control over what they can say or think horrifies you.

    All these above stated trends will intensify far beyond the level of mere discomfort; far past any known threshold of pain.

    We are not the customers of this system. We are its victims.

  • http://www.facebook.com/romet.loodus Romet Loodus

    If you give many people free heroin, you are likely to increase the number of heroin addicts. Addicts who would be willing to pay for the product in the future.

    A problem with giving heroin away for free is that heroin cannot be copied for free and you may run out of product. The same isn’t true for computer files.

    As a kid I downloaded a lot of movies illegally because I didn’t have the money to buy them. I also got to see movies that I normally wouldn’t have seen if I had to pay money for them. Years later I got a full-time job and I bought legal DVD copies of most of my favorite movies (almost a hundred of them). There was a good portion among them that I wouldn’t have bought, had I not seen them before for free and taken a liking to them.

    I have also been to several concerts and bought t-shirts of bands who’s albums I hadn’t bought before and who’s songs I previously had only heard for free (through illegal mp3 files, youtube and other places). After the concert I sometimes also bough some of their albums.

    NPD’s Russ Crupnick is “silly.”

    • ScrewEwe2

      Russ Crapnick Crupnick is a CorruptDick, IMO.

  • zunfooo

    Well now, that makes a lot of sense when you think about it.
    http://www.Anon-Webz.tk

  • Guest

    So the RIAA is saying “pirates don’t buy more because of piracy, they buy more because pirates are bigger fans of music!”

    lol

    Who cares about splitting hairs like that? How does it even matter? The end result is that pirates are the best customers, and this bullshit about them ruining the economy of the music industry is just that – bullshit.

    I don’t think the RIAA even understands what they’re saying because they just agreed with us, with NPD, and with the studies they’re trying to refute that piracy is good.

    • Anyone

      of course they understand the study
      but they still need a way to dismantle or at least censor the internet, so that independent artists can’t reach fans without going through the RIAA

      the RIAA is becoming obsolete, they are fighting tooth and nail to prevent that, and to that end they lie and bribe

    • joexxx

      That’s the definition of marketing, BTW.

  • EatMyBark

    Dont buy till I try is what I live by a sample like a trailer isnt enough I fully support artist and there creativity and only wish the money I do spend mostly goes to them. *uck you untalented except for fucking people RIAA fat cats.

  • http://www.facebook.com/romet.loodus Romet Loodus

    Awesome business practice, attacking people whom you consider to be your best customers.

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      It can be argued that the Music Industry, if not for legal muscle and past moneys, wouldn’t be able to run a business at all.

      Of course, being able to lock any profit “product” – i.e. an artist – in indentured servitude in a way which ordinarily would have been forbidden since the days of Abraham Lincoln does help.

  • Chronoss2008

    i think at this stage of the game
    we need to form gangs that are worse then osama bin laden and start bombing music stores…..
    /sarcasm

    • joexxx

      Who commit petty crime?
      Pirates have done MUCH better than Bin Laden ever could. They’ve made RIAA business model obsolete and there nothing RIAA can do about it!
      Anybody can download any song without having to dish out a cent to RIAA. That is what I call TOTAL KILL!

    • Scary_Devil_Monastery

      According to the music industry, we already have.

      I don’t know how old you are, but it isn’t THAT long ago the MPAA/RIAA were pushing to link filesharing to drug distribution and terrorism.

  • joexxx

    NO!!! Can’t be!
    You really needed a study to prove the obvious?
    That’s like conducting a study to prove that gravity always works!

  • Stonedog

    dumb shits, it the economy today, i use to send a lot of money a year on music,
    just can’t do that in today’s world, and also them darn cds just don’t last as long
    cause a few months they be junk. what happened to the ol’days?

  • Janelle

    ohh statistics, the bain of my existance. Everyone knows, or at least should know that you can skew any type of stats to make your point. Its very hard to rely on stats because their are so many variables, and can be looked at in so many differen’t ways. Give me a double blind study I say!
    The RIAA is assuming that people who p2p share are probably more engaged in the music scene and therefore buy more too, but that is an asumption. The people who only buy could be just as engaged, but can’t afford it.
    Also if p2p sharers are more engaged in the music scene and therefore buy more, who’s to say that if you take away the sharing, the buying will increase. My guess of human behaviour is that it would not increase the sales.
    Then you have to take a look at maybe not everyone has access or the know how to do p2p sharing, Does that make them some how less engaged in music?
    I guess my statistics course paid off a bit. I enver believe anything I read.

    The only thing you can discern from this study is that these p2p sharers spend more than these non p2p sharers.

  • Foff

    BFD and BFHD what none of these studies really address is if there were zero sharing would it affect sales. The answer is it would have no effect and may be even a negative effect. Part of the fun of collecting is admiring a growing stack of whatever you collect. I have tons of music I never thought I would have but I can’t feel it or see it because it is all digital. In fact I almost never listen to it. If you take away all the digital files I have I would hardly miss them and would never buy them.

    If I were an audiofile I might listen to them but in that case i would be buying music as well. With or without sharing my budget for sharing remains what I couldn’t afford I would find via other trading methods.

    My point is file sharing might or might not expand my tastes but is not related to my purchase decisions. There is no proof that any link between sharing and purchasing really exists. All sharing does is give those who do not have a music a collection and otherwise would never bother a chance to have a collection. In other words a download does not kill a sale because I would have never purchased it anyway I was not even thinking about until I saw the link. If I never saw the link I never would look for it to download I never would have thought of it and definitely never would have bought it.

    In short all the money spent fighting downloads is a waste because in a world without downloading sales do not change. The mafiaa would not like a study that shows their efforts are complete waste of time and money even though they are.

    • ThumbsUpThumbsDown

      In a world where the only available channels for downloading were the copyright approved channels, the money spent fighting downloads would have achieved 100% of the monopoly objectives underlying the existing copyright regime. This is to say that 100% of sales would be under the effective monopoly control of legally protected distributors.

      The threat posed by p2p file-sharing is not immediately about price, but control.

      You see, the essential attribute of a monopolist is that, because it controls the terms and Volume of Supply, it is in a position to dictate a price high above its marginal cost.

      The resulting high profit doesn’t come from treating counter-parties or customers
      well; but, by having true and effective control over supply.

      In this context, P2P File-sharing is a pure threat to control of supply. It makes perfect sense that Copyright monopolists want to destroy it, independent of whether P2P down-loaders are or are not their customers.

      What happens if P2P File-sharing thrives and survives?

      The monopolist withers and evaporates.

      What happens to P2P if the monopoly can successfully protect its control over supply?

      It will be wiped out initially…..then….resurrected as a part of the monopoly.

      • Foff

        True, however the cat is out of the bag. After 15 plus years of unchecked piracy there is too much material out there to ever get back in the bag. There are literally petabytes of music sitting on hard drives all over the world.

        Copyright law like prohibition has been effectively defeated. The copyright law may say 100 plus years but for sharing purposes it is effectively nothing as most music is on the net the day of release if not before. Copyright law is good at stopping someone from creating derivative works but is worthless at stopping sharing. Since official copies or MP3’3 are inferior to what anyone can download the public has little incentive to buy from official sites not to mention they are still trying to get monopoly prices in a market they no longer control.

  • DarkTigris

    “RIAA: Pirates Are Bigger Music Fans Than Average Consumers”

    Well it seems kind of logical when you put it that way. But aren’t they on the dark side? Are they trying to confuse me? Is this a really confuse plan to make me think twice before going to TPB? Am I buying music? Is the money I spend on the latest album of my favourite artist even getting to his/her/their pocket? Do I know what the hell am I talking about? Would any of these question have an answer?

    • ScrewEwe2

      I would say that the RIAA Pirates Are Bigger Pirates/Ripoff Artists Of Musicians Than The Average Pirate Bay Fans. We do it for entertainment, they do it for Gold.

      • DarkTigris

        I would totally agree with you

  • http://profiles.google.com/zerianis10 Christopher Kidwell

    Sounds to me like they agreed with the study, to be blunt.

  • RIAALOLZER

    Man…Fuck you RIAA. For all those years you’ve tried to put people down as Pirates, yet, to your knowledge now these were the exact SAME consumers that buys your SHIT.

    Big middle finger to you. Glad you finally realised… What now? You going to praise or hate?

  • Nospam

    s/so they brought in research firm NPD/so they bought research from NPD/

    There, fixed that for you.

  • AsianGhost77

    Better engaged or not, they spend more money, is that not enough? MONEY$$$

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  • Dave

    I spend far more on music and band merchandise specifically because I download. I have tons and tons of band t-shirts, a reasonable CD collection, and a bunch of concert tickets. Chances are, without piracy, I’d never have discovered any of those bands. Okay, they’re not making the $15 their album would have cost me. But had I not stumbled upon that free album and given it a shot, I wouldn’t have spent $100 on merch and $30 on a concert ticket. And then if I liked them enough I probably bought the album anyway.

  • AsianToast69

    let’s shoot obama or who ever is in charge atm.

    don’t let a commercial militia ruin the lives of kids,musicenthusiasts and fans.

    let’s shoot the american president as long as there is support for terrorgroups like mpaa,riaa,brein etc..

  • Florian Bösch

    RIAA — Colloquially known as the Dep. of brilliantly self defeating arguments. Led by Major General Obvious who has the tripple black belt in Backfirejitsu.

  • Andrew

    Anyone who got The Heist knows a quality album and quality packaging.

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  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tyrone-Smith/100001236279309 Tyrone Smith

    The whole alleged purpose of copyright is to to promote progress. Locking up ideas as property doesn’t do that. It is a progress stifling form of censorship that is honestly no different than trying to suppress ideas. It is high time copyright was abolished. If governments won’t make it so, technology will.

  • Horsemeat

    People are not buying music as much now simply because its shit, nothing to do with piracy.

    Even if it’s not shit then for some strange reason they think it’s funny to fuck up the mastering by turning the volume up until it clips then give it the thumbs up. So people really do have to try before they buy… or buy older recordings which may not be available new.

    Maybe my taste in music is not like everyone else’s though so I can’t speak for everyone…

  • Chronoss2008

    just beat up all the actors and musicans and there lawyers

    we’ll all get far less time in prison

  • 1of9000

    @ jaVohn, re: “…keep the bitching about rap music and those damn porchmonkeys to yourself. Fuck off.”

    Even online, I don’t like to be insulting, but… you sound like a racist cunt. (See how anonymity works? We’re both asshats and keyboard warriors spewing unhelpful, insulting words).

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  • lawrensj

    am i the only one that noticed that the double counted their sub total. in the per capita spend: 2011 table. there final numbers are 137 and 205. EITHER WAY, the music lovers still spent more on merch and tickets to more than make up for the non-lovers spending. (just concert/merch for pirates is 143 > 137 for the total non-enthusiast) maybe they should just make it free music…

  • Zeb A

    download this song

    http://youtu.be/VBkuiChImb8

  • dude.

    I miss napster.

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  • 3rdLevelRogue

    Without file sharing, I never would have heard of MC Chris or The Decemberists or Rise Against. I would have never bought their CDs, a shirt or two, or been to a total of 5 concerts amongst them where I bought said shirts and CDs. By pirating their music first to ensure I liked them, I spent a bunch of money to support them.

  • Who

    @Ben: you are a moron.

  • Who

    @Anyone: “lossless IS compressed
    it just doesn’t remove any information like MP3 does”
    right my bad I was thinking of something else @ the time. but lossless can be uncompressed in PCM format.

    • Anyone

      of course, uncompressed is lossless by definition
      but lossless can also be compressed

  • http://ellacrockerdile.tumblr.com/ Ella Crocker

    I illegally download a lot of music from popular bands to whom my money won’t make a great deal of difference, but I usually make the effort to buy music from less well-known bands who might actually need it. Most of the money I spend on music comes from buying t-shirts and going to shows though, and I know full well I spend much more on that kind of thing than my non-pirate counterparts.

  • Guest

    Some of todays music is pure shit and cheap. People can rap about anything and the riaa will sign them.

  • http://profiles.google.com/matte.nessa Vanessa Matte

    The thing is, people who can’t afford to buy music nowadays, couldn’t afford it either when it wasn’t available online. It could be argued that the sales have not disminished at all, it’s just that now people who couldn’t buy music before have an opportunity (although an illegal one) to discover and enjoy music. People who bought it before though are still buying it now, they’re still going to see shows and are still buying merchandise. So these sales haven’t been lost. Don’t tell me the kid who’s family has a hard time buying groceries every week is a lost sale. If his favorite artist wasn’t available online, he wouldn’t listen to him at all.

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  • ThePain

    Somebody should make a study about how the RIAA actually is responsible for loss of money to the Music Industry

    They take something like $27.88 million and show no actual proof of work, no wonder record companies are pulling the plug on them now

    Also I think Record Companies actually should pay me and not the other way around to listen to Bieber and the likes of him (this does not refer to me having bough or downloaded but rather to listening when shopping or the auto-tuner neighbour trying is new sound system)

    I still have that awful “music” stuck in my head and can’t shake it down

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  • Cheeseeater

    Wait a second… downloading is NOT ILLEGAL. At least in Canada where I live. We pay a TAX on blank media that goes to artists for ‘private home copying’ and the Supreme Court of Canada said in 2005 that P2P is LEGAL. As long as you’re not SELLING the download or CD, simply sharing it via P2P or letting someone copy the CD on their own computer, noting illegal is occurring. (In a weird twist, if I copy the music to CD for you, THAT’s illegal, but not if you do it yourself – strange, eh?)

    In the Napster days, I only had 5 CDs. Once I discovered Napster and it’s vast amount of ‘free’ music, I purchased 50 CDs in less than a year. Then the RIAA and it’s shills called me a thief. Well thanks for that. I decided then I WOULD NEVER PURCHASE ANOTHER CD. I have since adjusted that decision and have purchased CDs for gifts and ONLY USED CDs for myself. For the most part, I just download the discography for artists. To date I have over 200 Gb of music and haven’t paid for a single song. Do I feel guilty? NO WAY. Remember, it’s LEGAL IN CANADA. Thank you Supreme Court of Canada!

  • http://tiny.cc/Justp94 Justin T. Poindexter

    I buy music, pirate music, go to concerts, buy t-shirts… The truth is though if I didn’t pirate the music first, I wouldn’t be buying the music if I didn’t like it. I only download illegally to see if I even want to buy in the first place. The problem with the music industry is that they’re blind to this fact that yes, people who pirate music are more likely to discover artists and music they’ve never liked/listened to before and increase sales in all categories. It’s ironic how the most idiotic people are those that are in huge corporations and organizations.

  • zhekexing
  • Zero

    i buy my shit but i check out the album download some from thepiratebay and when the time is right and my wallet is full i go on a shopping spree, but the band it self earns maybe 1$ of the cd, but like i have downloaded all iron maiden and all pink floyd but i buy the shit when im in a store its that simple

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_BOD6T46O6RYENKPKZKR5NRQS5I jvkla

    This argument is koo koo, and is also a red herring. Of course, anyone who goes to all the trouble of downloading from Bittorrent and the like is more ‘engaged’ with music. Or, more ‘engaged’ with movies or games. That’s why they do it.

    But because of that ‘engagement’, they also are more likely to go into stores selling that stuff than non-downloaders… Thus, the spend more money.

    Which means they are the RIAA’s best customers. If the RIAA continues harassing them in ham-handed, overbearing ways, they will become even more resentful of the industry, and stop spending the money they do spend. And then, the industry will really be up the creek.

  • austinhamman

    it seems rather evident from torrent sites that things which are available streaming (such as tv shows on netflix) are increasingly rare. because netflix offers a better service (you can watch what you want now rather than waiting for it to download and THEN watching it) and at a reasonable price (i think its like $5-10/month or something) and that is the key to beating piracy, time and time again this has been evident, and when the industry learns this, maybe we can move on.

    • Meathamper

      The problem is that Netflix is only great if you live in the US. I am in Canada and I subscribe to Netflix but the catalogue here is piss-poor. I am also a huge fan of foreign TV shows and films that never make it to Canada so I end up downloading shows and movies instead of importing a DVD for $60 on Amazon (and I make no excuses about it; I pirate)

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  • Devos

    I’m buying again CD’s after downloading cause its not the same have an mp3. And…Having tons of music on my Ipod dont make me listen all the music there. My Ipod is for discovery music on shuffle Way, my CD’s is for listen a complete work make you appreciate more the artist and his music.

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