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Copyright Drama Prevents Artist From Sharing Music on MySpace

Efforts by Warner Music to prevent music piracy have gone so far that indie artist Edwyn Collins is unable to share one of his own tracks on MySpace. In a response to the copyright drama, Collins’ manager explains that file-sharers are not the problem, but the labels themselves.

edwyn collinsIn the early nineties Edwyn Collins scored a hit with “A Girl Like You,” but after 15 years he thought it would be a good idea to share the song for free on MySpace. However, this was easier said than done.

Although Collins owns the copyright to his own music, and all licensing deals for the track have expired, MySpace wouldn’t allow him to make the song available on his profile. Grace Maxwell, the manager and wife of Collins, wrote about the unpleasant surprise in a recent blog post.

“I was told Edwyn was attempting to breach a copyright and he was sent to the Orwellian MySpace copyright re-education page. Quite chilling, actually. I naturally blew my stack and wrote to MySpace on his behalf demanding to know who the hell was claiming copyright of Edwyn’s track?” she wrote.

Well, as it turns out, Warner Music were claiming the song as their own and MySpace bought into it without even checking. After she found out about this, Maxwell contacted one of Warner Music’s lawyers who promised to resolve the issue, but months have passed and MySpace is still not allowing the song to be uploaded.

“That is because MySpace are not equipped to deal with the notion that anyone other than a major can claim a copyright,” the manager writes, adding that the file-sharers are not the biggest ‘bootleggers’ – the record labels are.

Several big shot labels are still selling Collins’ track today even though their license to do so expired several years ago. This basically means that the labels are pirating his music, and making profit from these activities.

Trying to stop the labels is useless according to Collins’ manager. “Attempting to make them cease and desist would use up the rest of my life. Because this is what they do and what they’ve always done,” she writes.

There is still hope though, says Maxwell. Instead of abusing copyright for profit the music industry should work on new business models that allow fans to enjoy and discover unlimited music, while artists get their work heard by a larger audience.

“Now let’s get on with working out a wonderful new way for music lovers to enjoy music for free or for a small subscription that makes it legal and easy to hear ANYTHING and allows the artist to reap the rewards of such freedom of access. Viva la revolucion!”

In the meantime Collins can put the song on The Pirate Bay, isoHunt or Mininova and link to it on MySpace.

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  • adam

    are we really shocked at the hypocrisy?

  • Dude

    @1
    Well no, but eventually the labels will dig their own grave, and hopefully this will lead to a liberalization of the music access.

  • Anonymous

    or a little mirror at some cheap 7.50$ a month host so people can download it at least 50KB/s or so

  • emilio

    numero dos

  • emilio

    ha… stupd “posting too quickly” msg

  • Anonymous

    This happens all the time, nothing special

  • r3loaded

    “Well I never saw a hypocrisy like this before!!”

    Lol, I remember that song!

  • http://www.eZee.se www.eZee.se

    This was also covered on TD a little while back, since i have already commented there no use repeating the whole message here when a link should suffice:
    http://techdirt.com/article.php?sid=20091005/0146316418#c459

    BTW, nice coverage TF

  • Anonymous

    Anonymous veto network
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Av-net

  • Anonymous

    I think microsoft, google and apple(they would have to named something else because of the beattles label of the same name) should launch labels they would create their own content and distribute it and it could cost them a lot less them having to share revenue with those old crumbling labels.

  • Denney

    One thing I’m curious about with these so called “free artists” having their work “pirated” and sold by the major record labels as their own….

    Why aren’t they suing the major labels for copyright infringement! Seriously, if a big shot corporation was selling something that I owned the complete rights to, I sure as hell would be on their ass like a fish to water! Especially such a hypocritical corporation that sues their own customers!!!

  • Power2All

    It’s funny how every country like France and all those 3-strike-your-out countries think the piracy is only done by consumers.
    Isn’t this specific thing that shows that the music industry is pirating just as hard, and don’t get spanked for millions, while the companies can sue consumers and asking for millions of dollars o_O.
    It’s getting more pathetic at every minute >_>.

  • AlienDK

    @Denny: Because the labels got everyone with power in their pockets.

  • :|

    insane

  • x0Eurostyle0x

    So look whose the REAL pirate now. I’m just curious whether an author who owns the copyright can charge the labels for “defamation” and “copyright infringement” for stealing his music and selling to the pubic.

    If that were to ever happen, all the propaganda the labels spread would be useless. Because the labels would fall under that category as being the true thieves.

  • Anonymous

    @12 Oct 07, 2009 at 16:55 by Denney:

    There is 4 or 5 big labels that are responsible for 90% of the market would you really risk being black balled by any of them if you still had hopes of working with them sometime in the future?

    Those big labels control all the distribution paths and they could make your life hell. Besides there is the ASCAP thing that too collects money for the labels and get a cut even if you are not an affiliate they derived a system that they get paid even when they don’t have anything thing to do with the product LoL

    But of course we are the real criminals right?

  • Jamesy

    Please, please sue them for millions of dollars (not that it would make that big of a dent in their wallet).

  • youngdand

    @eezee.se

    Nice reply, was also good to see the repy from brendon of weatus as follows.

    wheatus

    As an former major label artist, this fish flopping just gets more embarrassing with every cheese lip lame ass “statement”.

    Dear Other Artists,

    If you don’t want your music leaked then don’t give it to anyone you think might leak it. If your “record deal” stipulates you must then grow a pair and try to get out of it…you are in the life you chose and chastising the working people who made it all possible for you is some spoiled brat bullshit.

    Home taping didn’t kill music in the late 70′early 80′s, it helped it. So does piracy help the cream rise to the top today. The artificial market place you were used to is being replaced by a real one.

    Dear Techdirt Thinkers,

    Making music and selling it for a REASONABLE profit on the internet are not as complicated as my defunct 78 page agreement with a certain Major Label or the RIAA would have you believe. Licensing IP to outlets who seek to profit from it is even easier. Any ML artists who talk down to you are trying to protect an unsustainable and corrupt system that has failed upward for decades and can no longer afford to hold up the weight at the top. The plan, as always, is to make you pay more for less. Resist!

    Go True Indie Music Only,
    brendan b brown
    wheatus.com

  • anonymouse

    wonder if this information would aid iiNet, among others, atm? anyone managed to pass the article on to them in Oz? dont think it would do a company that is accusing another company of aiding in copyright theft to be accused themselves, especially when there is definitve proof of the offence, not trumped up statistics?

  • Anonymous

    let’s kill all these corporate parasites.

  • Pingback: Edwyn Collins Can’t Give Away His Music « Brayden Styles

  • Felix Ple?oianu

    Suing those piratical labels would be too expensive for a private individual, unless he’s a billionaire. But it sure would be nice to let everyone know who they are.

  • djnforce9

    Now I would just LOVE to see “Reasoned Mind”, “Neo-Styles”, etc try and comment on THIS topic (i.e. justify Warner’s actions) because stuff like this is sheer proof that filesharers are not really “The Bad Guys” as we don’t “profit” from somebody’s else’s hard work nor inhibit their ability to spread it (we HELP them make it known to everyone).

    Like always though, all of them trolls will happily ignore this topic as it doesn’t fit their “self fulfilling prophecy” that sharing is stealing and all file sharers are criminals.

  • kingkong

    wot a joke tell him he can put his music on http://www.trackeraccess.org anytime

  • Jim

    Since the RIAA can sue you for thousands of dollars per act of sharing, they in turn should be on the hook for the same damage. For every illegal share they did, this artist should be able to sue for damages.

    As for the lame manager who thinks it would her whole life to enforce justice… well what a better use of a life than to take down the man!

  • anon

    I smell a class action lawsuit against both MySpace and the music companies. I doubt that this is an isolated instance. I bet a smart shyster can solicit lots of other artists that are being infringed upon my the music companies.

  • djnforce9

    @ 26 Jim: Good point. Find out how many copies were sold and sue for thousands of dollars for each sale. That’ll rack in loads of money and put a nice dent in Warner’s profits. Maybe then they will think twice before pulling stunts like this again (but probably not since I doubt a single indie artist would have the time and resources to lobby and buy out judges in order to guarantee a win).

  • Khristopher

    Why do people continue to use myspace? It always was crap and still is.

  • PirLog.com

    He is certainly welcome to share it in Bittorrent sites.

    http://pirlog.com

  • aarrttri

    Dear All:
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    We are adjacent to the world’s largest gadget labs/factories in Taiwan. We are developing cool technology to enable us enjoy better life in the 21st century. We are hardware hackers.
    The fleXpeaker is the name of the thin-paper spaker. The thickness of the “speaker” is merely 0.1 centimeters. Therefore, the paper can be integrated into buildings, electric vehicles, entertainment and medical application. Cool eh?
    For more information about fleXpeaker, Pleaese visit:
    http://bit.ly/fleXpeaker
    We have cool gadget released from time to time. We are releasing another ground-breaking product soon in 3 weeks. Welcome to join our Facebook group to receive the latest news.

    Go ITRI Taiwan now!!

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  • TorrentzBeak

    Too Many protest singers, not enough protest songs!

    Seriously though, if they are claiming copyright, & I dload it from MiniNova & CarPhone Boghouse give away my dynamic IP whilst doing so, can I be hit with a fine, or loss of my internet?

  • TorrentzBeak

    @24
    “A self-fulfilling prophecy of endless possibilities” said Mr Yorke = he could be desribing exactly what you are talking about. As these record execs “roll in reams across the street
    In algebra, in algebra”

  • Rick

    In an unrelated story, does anyone know what happened to Xbox-Sky? It’s been down for awhile. I was wondering if it’s coming back.

  • Rabbit80

    If we (as consumers) were tu buy this track from iTunes etc, could we report them to the police for selling us stolen goods? If enough people did this – what impact would it have?

  • Whatever

    @13 In France it would be 2 strikes (as selling counts as twice) One more artist and Warner is out and will have no internet access in France.

    Much easier than sueing is to send 3 complaints to HADOPI in 3 days as they won’t cease after the first 2. Might be amusing.

    Anyway they should sue as in the US they would get billions.

    And like someone before mentioned, where are the copyright heroes (neomindless) telling how it is stealing and Warner Music should go to prison ?

    offtopic:
    Actually everyone in France should start sharing files from work (especially from TV stations) = no more French businesses on the internet in France.

  • www.plentyoftorrents.com

    Thats not very fair to the artists.

    http://www.plentyoftorrents.com

  • knux

    “In the meantime Collins can put the song on The Pirate Bay, isoHunt or Mininova and link to it on MySpace. ”

    Yea until MySpace gets another DMCA notice from some other idiot stating that torrents are illegal and are infringing on their rights… Seriously WTF, Warner has become a royal pain in the ass both in their music subsidiary and their movie studio. I got a damn DMCA just from downloading a movie trailer from them via P2P… WTF

  • dude

    Oh whats this more evidence of what we already know? Yes yes.. I know.. shocking yeah yeah wahtever..

    Every song I download gives me great pleasure knowing that I am ending a criminal organization known as Warner. Hopefully justice will be served and they will be serving time for there crimes..

    In the mean time, everyone needs to do there share and download music.. if you dont.. your future is a very bleak one.

  • Anonymous

    And it is BECAUSE of Time-Warner’s bullying tactics that I refused to get Time Warner cable for my home, paying more instead for Direct TV. I also will NOT purchase anything off of ITunes, or ANYTHING that says Time Warner on it is off limits in my book. THEY ARE BULLIES! Hit ‘em where it hurts….right smack in their overbloated wallets!

  • NJKatwoman

    And it is BECAUSE of Time-Warner’s bullying tactics that I refused to get Time Warner cable for my home, paying more instead for Direct TV. I also will NOT purchase anything off of ITunes, or ANYTHING that says Time Warner on it is off limits in my book. THEY ARE BULLIES! Hit ‘em where it hurts….right smack in their overbloated wallets!

  • Vork

    I myself would do is say is myspace allow me to upload or I sue you for censorship and if they want to claim infringement they can answer to me.

  • me

    djnforce9: “Now I would just LOVE to see “Reasoned Mind”, “Neo-Styles”, etc try and comment on THIS topic”

    That was exactly my first thought here. ;)

  • Anonymous

    Arr .. whose the pirates now.
    Oops still us .. cause this doesn’t hurt big musics pockets, free cash for them .. I wonder if they even pay the poor bloke for selling is unlicened music.

  • Anonymous

    If he doesn’t go ahead and sue the shit out of Warner, he can keep his soppy story to himself.

  • rawr

    Is it ironic that I pay ONLY for time warner cable internet and download all the content I want that is probably produced by warner?

    Poetic justice or just silly nonsense?

    WARNER YOUR A BUNCH OF BASTARDS! but i will be downloading your stuff kthnxbai

  • curious

    the song is actually available at myspace, so what’s the fuss…

  • Copywritest

    To all of those telling him to sue, the problem with copyright law is it only allows one to pay for damages. As it can be argued (with more money than he can provide, which will probably equal a winning argument) that he wouldn’tve been selling his music itself, rather, he would’ve just been giving that particular music away, they can claim that no damages have been done, and thus, he couldn’t get any money other than his legal fees from the lawsuit.

    The laws are all balanced in favor of the corporate interests/copyright cartels, so there isn’t really any good wa to battle them in the legal system. The best they can do is send out cease and desist each and every time someone starts selling the song in a new form, and then suing if they don’t comply… The problem is it WOULD take up her entire life sending those letters, and they do tend to comply, at least for a little while.

  • gorehound

    Stop buying any music from these large corporate labels.They are all thieves even worse than any child downloading some songs.They do this all the time.they price fix music for consumers.They screw over their artists.

    Boycott all corp labels and any RIAA type companies as well as any artists who sign with that type of business.
    Hope he sues them and wins a boatload.sue em per song to the tune of millions

  • seko

    hypocrites.
    sorry buckos, i steal your shit all day everyday.
    cry moar noobs.

  • Sendaii

    Wow, the hypocrisy is making my eyes water.

    This is why I would never sign to a major label. To be honest, i don’t like the idea of signing to a label at all. Once you sign that contract, you are allowing them to take YOUR work, the stuff that you worked for months, maybe years, and do what they please with it and you even have the privilege of being paid money that would make the hobo sleeping on a park bench look rich.

  • poor

    myspace sucks anyways, errors 24/7, seriously..

  • TheTruth

    Warner Music??? Never heard of them. Is that a new torrent site?

  • Reasoned Mind

    @24 (djnforce9):

    This is simply an unfortunate incident. Although Time Warner is certainly guilty in this case of “copyright infringement”, it doesn’t make copyright infringement by consumers any more excusable.

    As well, the fact that you’re self-righteously claiming that “All music companies are stinking thieves, and this incident is proof” because of this one isolated incident shows how prone to generalization you pirates are.

    If you can show that this incident is not isolated (and no, Jammie and Joel are not valid examples because the record labels weren’t the ones being sued in this case), I may just retract this statement.

    We don’t “profit” from somebody’s else’s hard work nor inhibit their ability to spread it (we HELP them make it known to everyone).

    You certainly don’t profit from it, and you certainly don’t inhibit their ability to spread it, but you certainly do inhibit (if not entirely prohibit) their ability to spread it in the way that they want to. Isn’t that their right (to spread their music their own way)?

  • Anonymous

    @54 Oct 08, 2009 at 01:26 by Reasoned Mind:

    It is not an isolate incident, warner brothers have a loooooooooooong history.

    Here some search terms for ya:

    Universal City Studios, Inc. v. Nintendo Co., Ltd.

    Warner Bros. settles lawsuit over ‘Lord of the Rings’ licensing payments

    FRANCIS COPPOLA, FRED FUCHS
    AND FRANCIS FORD COPPOLA, INC.,

    Plaintiffs, Appellants and
    Respondents,

    v.

    WARNER BROTHERS., INC.,

    ” In the late 1980′s, appellant Coppola began considering concepts for a motion picture based upon the 19th century novel, “Pinocchio.” The story itself is in the public domain. Previously, in the 1960′s, Coppola had had negative experiences at Warner and had not since worked with Warner for many years.”

    Hmmm…right they are not thieves LoL

  • Anonymous

    “to spread their music their own way?”

    Nope, not in any copyright law that I know off, they all say they are there to permit a fair chance at some remuneration for their work, in what fashion that is done can take many forms or no?

  • Anonymous
  • Anonymous

    labels pirating! yay gg

  • Anonymous

    Besides the industry is full of liars LoL

    They said they would stop litigation in public but under the table they continue to file lawsuits.

    http://www.williamsmullen.com/rocketdocketiplit/blog.aspx?entry=115

  • Reasoned Mind

    @55 (Anonymous):

    It is not an isolate incident, warner brothers have a loooooooooooong history.

    Here some search terms for ya: (etc.)

    Alright, so are there any non-isolation examples for companies besides Time Warner? Or is Time Warner an isolated incident all by themselves?

    (Thanks for the info by the way, most people would just say, “Fuck off, we don’t like your type here.” It’s not often that people actually back up their statements.)

    @56 (Anonymous):

    they all say they are there to permit a fair chance at some remuneration for their work, in what fashion that is done can take many forms or no?

    And you are taking away this “fair chance for remuneration” by pirating their works. The fashion in which pirates take these artists’ work does not afford much remuneration.

  • Anonymous

    http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63313

    Read the comments for more examples of how great the Warner Bros. Records Inc. is LoL

  • Pirate

    No, it’s not their right. Information can’t be owned, you can only construct that “right” artificially. That is exactly what the music industry has done – artificially create a monopoly – and now the this artificial monopoly doesn’t work anymore the status quo is resumed.

    This will all work itself out, in time. Music will be produced, and good artists will be rewarded by their fans as they always have been. I seriously question the brainpower of anyone not being able to see both the historical and cultural precedents for this development.

    I’ve always loved the bread analogy. If bread could be copied like music/information nowadays, no one would complain, even if there might be a lot of compassion involved in making the recipe, or doing the “initial bake”. Seriously people, unfuck your minds.

  • Anonymous

    The actual chairman for warner music is the same guy that colluded with others in a price fixing scheme when he was at universal LoL

    http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2005/09/bronfman-you-hypocrite

  • TomDLux

    At the standard pirating rate of $67,000 per copy distributed, suing them should be worthwhile … if anything is left after lawyers’ fees

  • l33t

    Reasoned Mind is reduced to strawman arguments on this one.

    Ever the corporate apologist.

  • Anonymous

    but reasoned mind the point is that their hyprocrites and that you should get a real job instead of being a payed troll for an evil corporation

  • Fax

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hla7KMY8OFA

    The video is not suited for minors that said the guy gives the fax from warner music and a link to a free web fax service LoL

    Send your thoughts to WMG.

    or use the info of the people behind the RIAA LoL

    http://consumerist.com/consumer/riaa/faces-of-the-riaa-244519.php

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  • Dan

    “In the meantime Collins can put the song on The Pirate Bay, isoHunt or Mininova and link to it on MySpace. ”

    So can I :D

    “Now let’s get on with working out a wonderful new way for music lovers to enjoy music for free or for a small subscription that makes it legal and easy to hear ANYTHING and allows the artist to reap the rewards of such freedom of access.

    That sounds like P2P to me!

  • diarRIAA

    This reminds of the musician that discovered his music was being sold on iTunes, but he never received a dime from them.

  • PREDATOR

    @53

    Warner Music??? Never heard of them. Is that a new torrent site?

    No this is a terrorist organization like El kada that we have to eradicate.

  • PREDATOR

    @54 Reasoned Mind:

    you troll neostyle=Simple mind= few others aliases you are weakening.

    You have to work harder man or your boss is going to fire you before we have time to fire at your boss.

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  • Bobe-On (Heat)

    I’ll fashion a guess that
    the internet and file-sharing must be driving the industry absolutely crazy; that they can’t seem to make much money off it, off a leveraging of almost 0-cost distribution along with a massive potential market–so tantalizingly close, yet so far away–; they’re losing quality acts as they go indie; they’re losing respect and fans, potential fans and potential artists who choose to go indie; they’re having to milk their old repetoire as re-releases; they’re having to settle for acts of, arguably, a lesser quality; the acts that are still signed or sign on are being regarded with increasing contempt by association; the CD and even DVD’s are older technologies that seem to be appearing with less frequency in newer laptops; they’re having to hire expensive lawyers, etc., to lobby and lawsuit-slap those concerned, where the latter can hardly afford to pay anyway if they lose; the chilling effect doesn’t seem to be working; pirate political parties are popping up; file sharing still seems to be increasing after 10 years since Napster and is becoming more sophisticated; and then there are the stories similar to this article where the companies are getting in hot water with their own dubious activities and signed acts; and so on…

    I wonder how much heat the industry can output and what is going to happen with that heat.

  • TheTruth

    Every artist with a major label contract is enslaving him-/herself. And if you buy their music you enslave yourself too. Shame on you!

  • Bobe-On (Pirate as Dissident)

    “A dissident, broadly defined, is a person who actively challenges an established doctrine, policy, or institution. When individual dissidents unite in a common cause they may become known as a dissident movement.

    The noun was first used in the political sense in 1940, with rise of totalitarian systems…

    An important part of the activity of dissidents was informing society …about violation of laws and human rights…

    This radically changed the meaning of the term: instead of meaning a criminal, who opposes society, the term came to mean a non-conformist…

    – Wikipedia

    Looks like the semantics of ‘pirate’ are changing.

  • Whatever

    @48
    There was damage: the amount that people paid to buy it.

    @neo mindless (and other aliases)
    2. Sony versus some Mexican artist (article at torrentfreak)..

    3. Lily Allen from … (was it EMI)

    I guess thats 3 strikes for you so you’re not allowed on the internet anymore so you will not be posting comments.

    Note: every person sharing is an isolated incident, companies are doing it organized and so it cannot be an isolated incident or they would have solved it months ago.

  • Rabbit80

    It seems to me that there are new exampled of the music industry breaching copyright and screwing over the artists they claim to defend almost daily at the moment. The problem, as I see it, is that the big labels think they own copyright itself, and as such it does not apply to them. It is as though they see a big fence – with us at one side and them at the other. This is of course bullsh1t, but they need stopping before the problem worsens.

  • TheTruth

    @75 Whatever
    “companies are doing it organized”

    We call it Mafia: Organized crime or criminal organizations can be defined as a transnational grouping of highly centralized enterprises run by criminals for the purpose of engaging in illegal activity, most commonly for the purpose of generating a monetary profit.

  • Ecolli

    WELL I’VE NEVER MET A CASE LIKE THIS BEFORE,
    NEVER,
    NEVER,
    NEVER,
    NEVER,
    NEVER MET A CASE LIKE THIS BEFORE

  • Anonymous

    Here’s another one for our twisted, blinkered little sycophant ReasonedMind:

    Morrissey: Don’t Buy My Music
    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=KKq&q=morrisey+don%27t+buy+my+music&btnG=Search&meta=

    Of course, that’s an isolated case too. They’re ALL isolated cases and can easily be thought of as such… if you have a warped and highly bigotted, one-sided, biased opinion.

    BUT…. he serves a valid pupose, since he convinces NOBODY. Therefore, he has zero impact regarding his own agenda and actually serves as a example, held up for all to see, of industry hypocrisy.

    Please do not ever go away ReasonedNeoMindStyles. You only make things easier. Oh the irony!

  • AnarchyNow

    Ah, the fun… “artists” make some shit, they can’t even share it themselves even as a shitty mp3, no, the USELESS record companies don’t want them to share because those worse than nazi psychopaths don’t want to share anything at all, they want to get richer and richer with money coming out of thin air, killing millions of poor people in the end process

  • Reasoned Mind

    Damn, I’m running out of tampons!

  • William

    @69

    Yeah, that was |The Flashbulb.

  • Anonymous

    reasoned mind you have problems maybe you should steal some then you can learn what stealing really is.

  • Anonymous

    And you are taking away this “fair chance for remuneration” by pirating their works. The fashion in which pirates take these artists’ work does not afford much remuneration.

    Care to see the table with the DVD sales and ticket sales showing growth particularly in the movie industry? Not to mention the B2B side of things that exploded this past decade. So no I actually don’t see evidence backing up your claims that something was taken, people still buy CDs and DVDs particularly DVDs are selling very well at the moment, not even competition from legal venues like rentals, movie theathers and TV seems to be slowing the buying hunger of consumers but I don’t think it will last we are after all in the worst global recession in decades and that got to have some consequences or the industry is immune.

    Futhermore the decline of CD’s sales is the only part of the entire business that is showing real decline, but since nobody use discmans that should come as no surprise. The new walkman is called cellphone ringtones that can be made for free by any audio software are a billion dolar market as is the market for MP3′s.

    Piracy today is what people did in the past recording shows and music from other venues and have no impact that one can measure.

    Madonna on top of the 2009 list again.
    http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3i7aabd374e1b54f163274392f4ebb0299

    1. Madonna: $242,176,466
    2. Bon Jovi: $157,177,766
    3. Bruce Springsteen: $156,327,964
    4. The Police: $109,976,894
    5. Celine Dion: $99,171,237
    6. Kenny Chesney: $90,823,990
    7. Neil Diamond: $82,174,000
    8. Rascall Flatts: $63,522,160
    9. Jonas Brothers: $62,638,814
    10. Coldplay: $62,175,555
    11. The Eagles: $61,132,213
    12. Lil Wayne: $57,441,334
    13. AC/DC: $56,505,296
    14. Michael Buble: $50,257,364
    15. Miley Cyrus: $48,920,806
    16. Taylor Swift: $45,588,730
    17. Journey: $44,787,328
    18. Billy Joel: $44,581,010
    19. Mary J. Blige: $43,472,850
    20. Kanye West: $42,552,402

    And her CD sales numbers?
    50th place. Very bad cd sales for a super star still she brings in a lot of money. Surely pirates are taking a tall aren’t they?

    DVD 2009 sales:
    http://www.the-numbers.com/dvd/charts/annual/2009.php

    It seems to be a better year then 2008 that saw the minimum sales at 16 million dollars for the 50 higher compared to the 20 million dollars this year for the minimum sales figure to enter the 50th place in the list this year.

    Movies income 2008/2009(counting only ticket sales from theathers assuming a fifthy fifthy split) from the biggest movies:
    http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/records/budgets.php

    One thing I’m very suspicious off is the numbers from the industry mouth pieces, I think they think people don’t go and verify their claims. If one should go and get the data and plot it I very much doubt that there is significant losses and this hysteria is more based on fear then facts and the reason is because the industry don’t release their numbers we have to get it from other fonts. None of the big players seems to be in the red according to public records so what again was taken from anybody?

  • Anonymous

    We should stabilish a website and start collecting financial data back from the begning(1890 maybe) till this day to see how it fares also we should put global political and economical instances that mark something important like the great recession of 1930, the famine in ireland, the oil crisis in the 70′s, war and see how entertaiment sales reacted to those events to see if there is any insight into the market that one can gain. For exemaple the RIAA changed the way it counted things somewhere in the 2000′s years and they don’t show their numbers before that hmmm…very convenient. Still there is others sources of financial records that are public and people could get their hands on like the SEC papers.

  • Anonymous

    The funny part is that when is about finances of big corporations there seems to be no need to get the numbers right. After Enron one should think that they will force companies to be more open about their finances still the subprime exploded in the faces of incompetent politicians that let greedy bankers do as they pleased, now the politicians are at it again laying the ground work for another financial disaster that could wipe out innovation and work for a lot of people, much more then simply a bunch of singers.

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  • Anonymous

    Another funny fact:

    Since piracy started live gigs have boomed, people are going out more often then before and artists are doing fine with live gigs apparently is the new gold mine and that is a gold mine that the recording industry can’t touch so all the proceedings go to artists and they are getting more money then they did in the past. I dare anybody say the contrary.

  • Anonymous

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZnMZ6iDrZo

    2006/2007 Madonna income 27 million quids or 48 million dollars(at 1.8).

    Which is more then the 7 years 60 million dollars contract with warner bros in 1992, which is more than the 27 dollars she had in 1982 LoL

    Where is the loss of income due to piracy again?

  • Anonymous

    Madonna album sales figures:

    The Hard Candy is not an impressive number even for post Napster(2001)
    Hard Candy
    Released: April 29, 2008
    USA Peak: 1
    USA Sales Figure: 714,000
    Last Certified: June 4, 2008
    UK Peak: 1
    Total World Wide Sales: 3,800,000

    Her best album sale was the The Immaculate Collection with 22 million units sold worldwide in 1990.

    The Immaculate Collection
    Released: Nov. 13, 1990
    USA Peak: 2
    USA Sales Figure: 10 Million
    Last Certified: Oct. 18, 2001
    UK Peak: 1
    Total World Wide Sales: 22 Million

    Hmmm…If I chart album sales and income I’m sure that what I will see is that when she was selling albuns she did not make much money the minute she started to tour hard she got the big bucks anyone want to bet?

    Another conclusion is that even though album sales sunk her income grew despite all the pirates of the world she never made more money then this couple of years.

    If I get all other artists I would find a similar pattern. So explain to us again how it is that piracy takes away the artists ability to get paid? When success have never paid so much to anyone in history?

  • Anonymous

    Source of the Madonna album sales figures:

    http://absolutemadonna.com/?page_id=2401

  • Gmat

    I like down loading music for free.

    I like getting lots of music + movies + porn for free.

    Sometimes I like Myspace for playing poker. Maybe thats all.

    Thanks for all the news .

    I hope that I don’t get caught.

    Stay safe ya’ll

  • Predator

    “A dissident, broadly defined, is a person who actively challenges an established doctrine, policy, or institution.”

    Nor the current entertainment parasites doctrine nor the DMCA are established nor can they constitute policy or institution.

    Actually they violate the constitution and therefore attempting to enforce them is a crime.

    Therefore the “music pirates” are no dissidents nor are they pirates.

  • Anonymous

    Almost blew his stack eh?

  • Kickass_Sid

    We at Kickasstorrents.com fully support independent artists!

    So he can turn to us anytime, instead af fighting with myspace.

  • Bobe-On

    @ Oct 08, 2009 at 19:38 by Predator

    I wrote/quoted:
    “A dissident, broadly defined, is a person who actively challenges an established doctrine, policy, or institution.”

    Predator responded:
    “Nor the current entertainment parasites doctrine nor the DMCA are established nor can they constitute policy or institution.”

    Unsure about that, such as if you look at the larger picture and/or zoom in really close.
    Consider also the ‘or’ qualification in that, as well as blurred distinctions, such as “corporatocracy”, as well as what/who influences what/who.
    The DMCA seems established in at least US law:
    “The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a United States copyright law…”

    “Corporatocracy or Corpocracy is a form of government where a corporation, a group of corporations, or government entities with private components, control the direction and governance of a country.”

    – Both, Wikipedia

    Actually they violate the constitution and therefore attempting to enforce them is a crime. Therefore the ‘music pirates’ are no dissidents nor are they pirates.,

    Perhaps, but I remain unconvinced.

  • Reasoned Mind

    @79 (Anonymous):

    I thought I’d never see the day that the pirates actually provided some good evidence for their arguments. (No, that case is no longer isolated because they are two of the same type of case.)

    Good job.

    Just, please remember not to call me a blinkered syncophant. If you’re going to call me names, come up with something original, like an “ignorant slave” or a “badly articulated bed-wetter”. At least you didn’t call me a corporate shill, like most people do. It’s a step up. ^_^

    BTW, I have nothing to do with .neo.styles|nvDX, don’t even go on about that.

    @81, 82 (Reasoned Mind):

    That’s right, I am running out of tampons. But I’m not the one who uses them, so somebody else is in big trouble right now.

    @85 (Anonymous):

    People still buy CDs and DVDs. Particularly, DVDs are selling very well at the moment. Not even competition from legal venues like rentals, movie theaters and TV seems to be slowing the buying hunger of consumers.

    Mind your punctuation and run-on sentences. They make your argument look incoherent and stupid, even if it isn’t.

    As well, if they’re buying so many CD’s and DVD’s, why do they even feel the need to pirate stuff in the first place?

    And please don’t give me the crap about try-before-you-buy, there are 30-second previews of songs on iTunes, and usually there are previews of movies that are about 1 minute long, on promotional websites that they do give out for free.

    If it’s some really obscure song you’re downloading that you can’t get through legitimate venues anyway (and I’m not talking about region-locked releases, I’m talking stuff that’s outdated), then it might be excusable to download it off the Internet. But if it’s really one of those hit albums that you listed in the bestseller list, you’re really out of excuses if it’s a copyrighted work that the artist doesn’t want you downloading illegally.

    Sure, BitTorrent may help the independent artists to get their music around, but do you think those hit artists that get pirated the most really need the “promotion” they get from torrent distribution? They have the record labels to take care or promotion; they don’t need people like you, who claim to be doing it “for the benefit of free culture”.

    Even if the companies are as corrupt as you say they are, you have to change that fact before people will accept your opinion.

    And the be-all and end-all of your argument is: The fact that CD and DVD, music and movie sales are rising does not make piracy any more legal. Until you manage to convince the general public that piracy is not some form of stealing somebody else’s work, or depriving them of remuneration (as shown by your evidence of increasing CD sales), your argument is moot in the eyes of the law. Until you can manage to actually get people on your side that aren’t already there, your argument will be ignored.

    I’m interested in what contrived response you’ll have for me this time.

  • Anonymous

    @97 Oct 09, 2009 at 04:52 by Reasoned Mind:

    Your point was that piracy deprived the artist from getting paid, I just showed to you that, that is not the case. What else do you want?

    As well, if they’re buying so many CD’s and DVD’s, why do they even feel the need to pirate stuff in the first place?

    I don’t know and don’t care, what I do know is that piracy don’t negate market for artists and it may even be free advertisement.

    They have the record labels to take care or promotion; they don’t need people like you, who claim to be doing it “for the benefit of free culture”.

    I have no problem with people that won’t put any song in public places like YouTube or other services. They own the ball that is fine, but society owns the field, if they want to play ball inside this field they will have to abide by society’s rules where there is no favorites sorry. I don’t even have a problem not using their services or products because I have alternatives and can create my own content.

    See here what I mean:

    P2P NOT TO BLAME FOR CONTENT INDUSTRY FAILURES SAYS E.U. AUG 2009
    http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/p2p_not_to_blame_for_content_industry_failures_says_eu.php

    The fact that CD and DVD, music and movie sales are rising does not make piracy any more legal. Until you manage to convince the general public that piracy is not some form of stealing somebody else’s work, or depriving them of remuneration (as shown by your evidence of increasing CD sales), your argument is moot in the eyes of the law. Until you can manage to actually get people on your side that aren’t already there, your argument will be ignored

    First, where did you see written that CD sales did go up in my post? CDs are falling like a meteor and soon DVDs may follow as people start moving to other forms of media that are capable of storing terabytes. What I did try to convey was that CD sales are not important for the market. People who buy CDs would buy thumb-drives with the music if it came in a nice box. The plastic disc is a container not a platform. Damn they could put all the songs there with a copy of any game like guitar hero in it or any singing game and sell it.

    Second I don’t think I need to convince anyone in the general population they are mostly already on the side of the pirates or we wouldn’t be having this conversation because piracy wouldn’t exist. Is the industry that have to prove to society that they are being hurt and deserve better but from where I stand they deserve a lot less from what they got now, and we will disagree on this one I’m sure.

    The thing you are right is that my viewpoints means nothing to the law, that is correct, but about your assumption that I need to get people on my side I beg to differ, there are already an estimated 60 million households in the U.S. alone that used P2P. It is not the general population that needs convincing is politicians.

    http://www.eff.org/issues/file-sharing

    Since I will not be convincing no politician any time soon and cannot be heard by those in power, I do what millions are already doing. I disregard the industry complaints and found myself alternatives to their products and I aggressively lobby my fellow pirates to join me and partake the copyleft world together with the public domain.
    You think people need millions to do music and movies?

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  • Anonymous

    You can pretty much take Anon’s (84-90) points and apply them to the movie industry too, who claim record box-office takings again and again, despite wailing about losses due to piracy that are “killing” the industry. No I’m not going to provide data for ReasonedMinds sake, as he will refuse to accept it as usual.

    But he says….
    “As well, if they’re buying so many CD’s and DVD’s, why do they even feel the need to pirate stuff in the first place?”

    So he virtually admits he also recognizes an inconsistency here, since he basically accepts the data presented. If he is as reasonable as he PRETENDS then he should be asking himself some big questions. Exactly how do you account for “rampant mass piracy” alongside continued growth and sales?

    A reasoned mind would pay more heed to the INDEPENDENT studies, of which there are many, by highly credible sources (far more credible than the RIAA), instead of swallowing unquestioned those from the industry. A reasoned mind would pay more heed to history which shows a clear resistance, and attempt to stifle, every single new technology to affect the music industry for the last 50 years, in order to obstruct and prevent progress and inovation.

    But no, he does not question or reevaluate, as an unbiased, reasoned mind would. He resorts to the same weak argument: you are wrong. Reasoned? Don’t make me laugh. When confronted with such inconsistencies you simply fall back on bigotry.

    So COME ON ReasonedMind, show us YOUR data. Show us YOUR facts. Don’t demand from others that which you won’t even provide yourself. By your own words, no data/facts = no argument. So by your own rules, you’ve lost.

    You provide NOTHING. All you do is name-call and fling accusations. “We” show data, show indepedent studes, provide facts to back up our REASONED views. You simply call everyone a pirate. That’s all you’ve got in your locker. Pathetic.

    Bottom line: Quit trying to disguise and deny your shilling with psuedo-intellectual babble. You, sir, are most certainly a SHILL of the highest order. An industry bulls.h!tter, and nothing more.

  • Anonymous

    (btw not the same anon)

    Oh, forgot to POINT OUT:
    “if they’re buying so many CD’s and DVD’s, why do they even feel the need to pirate stuff in the first place?”

    Nice deflection there. It was YOU who was asked that question. Simply repeating it back does not constitute an answer, as you know. Are you really that CONFUSED??

    It shows, once again, that you simply have NOTHING. Not a single valid answer.

  • Jan Schotsmans

    The incident is so isolated that even the dutch copyright watchdog group finds it normal to file forged documents to a court case against the Pirate Bay.

    Documents that are so clearly fake that even the credit company that BREIN supposedly received them from is thinking about suing their pants of, since this company makes their money by making trust worthy credit reports for companies all over the globe.

    Now they have one of these copyright outfits faking documents ruining the companies good name.

  • http://neuron2neuron.blogspot.com Ben Jones

    @83
    “If one should go and get the data and plot it I very much doubt that there is significant losses and this hysteria is more based on fear then facts”
    You mean like this, from last year?
    http://torrentfreak.com/us-pirate-party-study-shatters-mpaa-claims-080709/

  • Nuff

    Copyright and patent law has nothing to do with justice. They are just blood-smeared systems to reap profit, control and exploit people. And it all began when one disgusting turd wired a land claiming it to be his own (just because he wired it) and kill everyone who does not accept his unrightful claim, which he, the disgusting arse, claimed to be the law …

  • Bobe-On (Fractal Yin-Yang)

    @Oct 09, 2009 at 16:33 by Ben Jones

    Problem is, repeat falsehoods enough times and some people start to believe them.
    That appears part of the industry’s stratagems.

    Information reproduces.
    Cast it to the wind and it will reproduce.
    We are, ourselves, in effect, “information”. We reproduce.
    That’s why we are here.
    Our children are our mashups, our collaborations.

    On a slightly different tac yet again, if to yang with the first-phrase yin, one could say that we have become the industry.

    Only the universe owns copyright.

  • Bobe-On (Fractal Yin-Yang2)

    …If we sat on our kids to milk royalties for, 75 years(?) for the wonderful things they were and could say and do, they’d be practically dead before they could share themselves, collaborate and reproduce.

    What would happen to our species?

    What will happen to our culture?

  • Ninja

    LOL, just LOL.

    @ 1
    I’m not shocked anymore. I’m just disgusted with the industry.

  • Reasoned Mind

    @96 (Anonymous)

    First, where did you see written that CD sales did go up in my post?

    I meant DVD sales and other music sales in general. My mistake, I need to get with the times.

    Second I don’t think I need to convince anyone in the general population they are mostly already on the side of the pirates or we wouldn’t be having this conversation because piracy wouldn’t exist.

    This simply isn’t true. Piracy would still exist even if the majority of the people weren’t on its side. It just coincidentally happens that most people in Canada are on your side.

    There are already an estimated 60 million households in the U.S. alone that used P2P.

    Last time I checked, America’s population was 300 million. How many households is that…?

    It is not the general population that needs convincing is politicians.

    Well, if the general public holds a strong enough opinion, won’t the politicians eventually follow…? (I know that might be a stupid question, but it’s an honest one.)

    Since I will not be convincing no politician any time soon and cannot be heard by those in power, I do what millions are already doing. I disregard the industry complaints and found myself alternatives to their products and I aggressively lobby my fellow pirates to join me and partake the copyleft world together with the public domain.
    You think people need millions to do music and movies?

    The part about “lobbying your fellow pirates” is exactly why your industry is not progressing as quickly as you would like. You can’t lobby to just your fellow pirates, you also need to lobby to others who are not pirates.

    As well, no, I don’t think people need millions to do music and movies. But what does that have to do with the debate? People can choose to go indie, and they can choose to go with the record labels. If they go with the record labels, that’s their loss, they’ve signed away all their rights.

    @97 (Anonymous):

    Meh, I guess you’re right. I don’t have any data to show.

    But part of the problem is that I’m not arguing something that can be supported by facts. No, it’s not that the facts oppose what I’m arguing, it’s that my argument isn’t falsifiable. I’m arguing that piracy is illegal and morally wrong, not that it hurts the music industry. It’s not something that can really be quantitatively analyzed. If I were arguing that piracy hurt the record labels’ business, I’d be all for it, considering their heinous acts. But it really all boils down to whether it’s legal or not.

    By all accounts, your data is probably right – music sales have gone up, and the music industry, save the record labels, is thriving. So it’s pretty evident there that piracy is not hurting the music industry to the degree that the record labels think.

    (I’ve pretty much addressed nine tenths of your argument right there.)

    What, then, is the problem?

    The problem is that people think that they are entitled to a full product for nothing. The artists sure don’t get something for nothing – they have to invest time and effort creating the music.

    If piracy really were hurting the music industry, the music industry would have folded and collapsed by now. No, it’s not about the industry. It’s about something that’s comparable to theft, even if it does “simply make a copy”.

    And that’s something that simply cannot be supported by data.

  • Bobe-On (New Lenses of Revolutions)

    RM wrote:

    I’m arguing that piracy is illegal and morally wrong…

    Piracy? Or file-sharing?
    If the latter, the majority here are arguing that it’s not, or at least should not be, and giving powerful reasons in support– some, if not most– if not all– of which are apparently lost on you.

    I’m not arguing something that can be supported by facts.

    That sounds like religion. Certainly you wouldn’t be arguing for blood-letting to cure some ailments by now would you?

    My previous post attempts to suggest some fundamentals that we would do well to consider as a lense through which to view file-sharing and the revolution that is the Internet/digital communications.

    Speaking of revolutions, some– perhaps you, too– seem to argue as though they don’t exist/never happened/aren’t happening, or as though they are unaware of the SHIFTS/implications/etc. that they bring with them.
    Consider the Printing Press or Nuclear weaponry.
    Consider removing your old lenses if they’re truly there, and looking viewing what’s happening with new ones. You may find you see more and/or differently.

  • Anonymous

    The problem is that people think that they are entitled to a full product for nothing. The artists sure don’t get something for nothing – they have to invest time and effort creating the music.

    You see, that right there is where we part ways :)

    You think that the whole pie is owned by copyright owners and I disagree.

    You see the whole as a commercial space and I think there are 2 more components that you are forgetting and those are the private and public spaces where no copyright owner should put a foot in. Those spaces is where mixtapes happen, where people recorded their shows to see later, passed videos to one another through tapes, disc and now the internet. Copyright owners didn’t complain before because they were oblivious to those behaviors, they thought it was small when it was not, it is part of the human culture.

    I showed to you that this behavior(sharing) doesn’t compromise the ability of artists to make a living and still you argue that is morally wrong when I don’t think it is. What I do know is that it is normal and common.

    Doubt?

    Ask anyone if they think recording TV shows to see latte is against the law?

    Ask anyone if they think it is morally wrong to record music from radio.

    Why it is any different when it is done on the internet?

    Ask if anyone will buy a TV that don’t let them record something with their video recorders?

    Even G.W.Bush is a pirate or did you not see his iPod music list with the Beatles songs in it?

    The law is not broken when even the president of a country is made a criminal by that law?

    The law is not broken when authorities in public say they don’t have the resources to prosecute everyone?

    The law is not broken when authorities in public say that it would be better to get just a few instead of going after everyone because it could cause more criminal behavior among the youth that probably would turn to real criminal behavior to try and come up with the money to paid statutory damages?

    The law is not broken when every single person that owns equipment capable of recording anything is turned into a criminal?

    Is not the people who is invading the right holders domain is the rights holders that are invading the public domain and trying to stake a claim on it.

  • Reasoned Mind

    @105, 106 (Bobe-On, Anonymous):

    See? It wasn’t that hard to give a reasonable, cool argument, even if our principles are different.

    I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

  • Bobe-On (Babycakes)

    RM wrote:

    See?

    ‘See?’?

    Cool reasonable arguments seem a little different from patronizing ones, laced with ostensible obstinacy, wilful ignorance, pretence, disingenuousness, and lack of followup– do you think?
    Not that I’m necessarily suggesting that of yours’. ;)

    Furthermore, I doubt the industry-in-question is agreeing to disagree at this point, so there’s no argument per se. The arguments, in a sense, have come and gone, and are over.

    I’m more or less “indulging you”– leveraging your posts– for the sake of the issues… if maybe with a twinge of hope that you’ll “come around”.

    I mean, I do recall you suggesting or admitting in another thread to the effect that your values were fascist.

    In many cases, such as perhaps in some of the above, I find heated passionate arguments preferable, Babycakes.

  • FoxRunner

    @25 (anon):
    Artist are too busy making music to worry about class-action against labels who rob them. On the other hand, music consumers like us might have a case here: the artist gave us a present (of music to download) which the label won’t let us receive.

    What can we do to help? Go watch Edwin on YouTube! A couple of million hits there could help and substantiate the popularity of the song and make the case stronger.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkKxGzm98AU

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  • Ben from Baltimore

    Why doesn’t he upload it to Imeem and then embed the song’s player onto MySpace. That is what I would do if I were him.

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  • c0rr0sive

    I would pull an RIAA trick on them, find out how many discs the label sold, and inflate that number by a few thousand, then charge a nice little fee and bring in a few extra million….. That is, if I was him… It would be rather funny seeing the RIAA and so on being portrayed as pirates them selfs since they are breaking contract….

  • BTGuard - BitTorrent Anonymously

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