TorrentFreak

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New Law Will Shut Down TorrentFreak, Music Industry Expert Says

TorrentFreak will soon cease to exist because of new legislation being considered by the Obama administration, a prominent music industry expert has announced. But we’re in good company. Music streaming service Grooveshark and the RIAA-approved iMesh will have to go too, and news sites like Wired, Techdirt and Slashdot will have to change their tune drastically so as not to upset the battered music industry.

mosesLast week the White House published a white paper with several recommendations on how to make copyright law compliant with the digital age. Among other things, it suggests classifying unauthorized streaming of copyrighted material as a felony and to allow for wiretaps in copyright related cases.

The white paper along with its potential impact has since been widely discussed in the media, but apparently only a select few have the capacity to properly assess the consequences of an eventual change in copyright law. Music industry expert, book author and Grammy winner Moses Avalon is one of them.

“Here’s one story you won’t see going viral on a geek blog near you: the Obama administration is going to make torrent streaming, also known as P2P sharing of music, a felony,” Avalon wrote – four days after we covered the news.

Being the music industry and copyright expert he is, Avalon carefully explains how the White House recommendations will change the Internet as we know it. Not only will unauthorized streaming of copyrighted material become a felony, new legislation will also shutter legal music services that rely on P2P technology, and news sites that dare to mention the P word in public.

Although the White House white paper isn’t really about P2P at all, but about streaming, Avalon foresees a major change in the use of P2P technology on the internet, legitimate or not. In his list of services that will have to close, Avalon mentions the licensed streaming service Grooveshark and the RIAA-approved P2P service iMesh.

Despite the fact that Grooveshark and iMesh pay the music labels, they will have to go since the mere use of P2P and online streaming will soon be against the law, Avalon claims. And then there’s TorrentFreak, a site that has never encouraged readers to commit copyright infringement, but recognizes the benefits of P2P technology while rebutting entertainment industry propaganda.

TorrentFreak will have to change too, or be gone, Avalon says.

“You’ll start seeing less and less positive spin on P2P almost immediately,” says Avalon as he muses on the aftermath of the new legislation.

“Blogs who play fast and loose with copyright ‘facts’ and assert that P2P is OK because soon the music biz will be dead anyway, are going to get strangely quiet on the subject,” he writes.

Again, the above has very little to do with the White House announcement, which said nothing about P2P. In fact, encouraging people to commit copyright infringement through P2P services is already against the law. However, Avalon takes it up a notch claiming that writing about infringement and P2P will soon be a no go.

“What will they write about next? Who knows and frankly who cares. These guys are no different in my view than racist blogs inciting gay-bashing, and Antisemitism or ‘Freedom’ blogs that are vestibules for home-grown terrorism,” he notes while pondering the future of TorrentFreak.

And we’re not the only news sites who will be forced to change our tune, according to the expert. We’re in good company. Fine outfits such as Wired.com, Techdirt, Slashdot, Silicon Ally Insider and the blog of copyright lawyer Ray Beckerman will be affected too.

Let’s take a deep breath.

We honestly believe that Avalon’s writings are too absurd to respond too, especially coming from someone who previously said that Napster was the scapegoat of the music industry. And yes, Mr. Avalon was also the one who fiercely defended Eminem for rapping about wanting to see the president dead. Freedom of speech, he said at the time, only to now argue that writing about P2P technology is a crime.

But Avalon’s words do have impact, he thinks. He features all his TV appearances on his own YouTube channel and claims that his blog is read by 100,000 people, something he takes extreme pride in. When lawyer Ray Beckerman commented on his absurd writing, Avalon told him that he should be happy to be mentioned because it would get him some traffic. When responding to other commenters he simply ignores what’s being said, and changes the topic to himself and his outstanding writings.

You don’t have to be a psychologist to see that Moses Avalon shows signs of having a narcissistic personality disorder, to say the least. Should Mr. Avalon read a bible, he might honestly believe himself to be the Moses who is so often referenced.

As for his writings with regard to TorrentFreak, the recommendations put forward by the White House do of course have no impact on sites that discuss P2P technology. And no, streaming and P2P services that distribute licensed content will not disappear either. It’s just the rambling of a pitiful person who just hit the narcissist jackpot with this article. Congrats!

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  • Asdasd

    Bullshit

    • Bryan

      Just goes to show how idiotic politicians are when it comes to technology and understanding its use and mis-use.

      • Paul

        That’s because most politicians are old and wrinkly and most were born before the war. They are the ones who don’t have a clue about technology and are actually scared and confused by it. They just agree to everything the younger politicians say and pretend that they are technologically advanced to make themselves look good when really they haven’t got a fecking clue.

        • Yup

          Very well said. Need to get those old corrupt fucks out

        • Anonymous

          Unfortunately, true. Personally, I would like an age limit of about 60 years old on public officials. Any older than that and in most cases, time has passed you by and you still think candy costs 5 cents per bad and a car can be bought for 100 dollars.

    • http://crashsuit.blogspot.com crashsuit

      Seconded. Again with the misleading headlines, Ernesto?

    • Keep P2P Safe

      Wow, the guy is crazy! Bonkers really. The ego…
      I do think, however, that the laws are being pushed in increments as always…next thing you know this lunatics ravings will not be that far from the truth. I do think that it shows some of the thinking of those who are seeking to reign in file sharing.

      -Dee

      http://www.frimobil.se lås upp mobil med imei koder

  • Tom

    My heart bleeds for the poor music industry, I mean lets be honest – would you like to live in one of those houses they show on Cribs? Urrggh!

    • Cribs

      haha I would love to live in any of those houses I mean come on!!!!

    • Kelly

      Moses’s post is nothing more than his “guesstimation” as to what areas this new development might affect, but do you really think Cribs is a reasonable representation of the music industry? Even leaving room for exaggeration, using Cribs as an example of what the average musician is going through is like saying the average IT guy at “Joe Schmo Inc.” hangs out with Steve Jobs on his lunch break.

  • Someone

    Let the push for a fully encrypted 2nd free internet that mixes with the 1st unfree come. Oh darn, more ineffective policy, but more censorship for news sites/companies. Lovely world we live in. Thanks Obama… Change to f**k a free soceity.

    • 2012…

      Can 2012 come any sooner so we can get that fuck out?

  • Fuck Him

    Fuck that dude

  • http://twitter.com/K1rkpad Dylan Kirkpatrick

    Lol I really liked the last paragraph. Owned that guy.

  • Ryzzo

    Moses, thank you so much for being the only one brave enough to say it! I mean where does TF get off spewing all this hate propaganda about our beloved and honored copyright system?!?! To even suggest that the free dissemination of information and culture should be the norm is tantamount to terrorism, and I hope that Ernesto and Enigmax, and all of the low-brow readers of this blog are prosecuted to the full effect of the law and end up in Guantanamo Bay! For those of us that believe, no amount of innovation will ever be able to force us to change! I applaud you for your forward thinking and also for you truly humanitarian effort to warn TF and it’s degenerate reader base of the coming storm that approaches them. Now, if you’ll excuse me, my tinfoil hat has been creased from all of the fapping I’ve been forced to do with the excitement from for proclamation, and I need to make a new one.

    Yours truly, Andrew Crossley

    • Youll burn in Hell

      Someone is going to beat the shit out of you one day

      • http://twitter.com/za7ch Zack

        Awww, why’s that?

      • Again?

        It’s no fun to explain irony.

      • Suferdude

        rage much?

    • http://twitter.com/ltamake Link Tamake

      Kill yourself.

    • Anonymous

      Sarcasm galore playing the boogyman.

      I highly doubt you would see the real Andrew Crossley post here. That would be like walking into a pack of lions covered in blood.

      It is nice to see from the replies our local love of him.

    • George Bush

      Um….speaking of felonies; it IS a felony to impersonate someone else in the internet!

    • George Bush

      Um….speaking of felonies; it IS a felony to impersonate someone else in the internet!

    • Ninja

      Epic

    • Ninja

      Epic

  • DanielRemains

    American govt… Enough said.

    • http://billy.wenge-murphy.com/ Billy Wenge-Murphy

      What about it? The Swedes jail pirates, the British have far inferior free speech protection*, and Spain rolls over and takes our copyright policy up the ass.

      And that’s just for starters.

      You’re not safe anywhere. Wherever there’s power to be grabbed, someone will try. It’s only a matter of time.

      Even fucking India’s Bollywood is getting into the Draconian copyright enforcement game.

      *See: The Twitter bomb threat trial and McLibel

      • Anonymous

        Eeeh yeah, what choice do those countries have? They either bend to the will of the US or the US will stop trading with them. And no country can afford that in this crisis. It is pure blackmail.

        Dear US of A,

        I hope you understand that if we get the chance we will drop you like a brick. Like when China’s economy is strong enough or if the sheiks want to start trading oil in Euro’s. Then you will see who your real friends are.

        Good luck with the debt.
        Love, Europe

        • Doodad

          The good ol’ commie European nations are no better, anonymous fool. You have to remember that the music and film industries, full of liberals, expect doctors to work for nothing, and for CEOs of manufacturing companies to make nothing, but by God THEY sure as hell don’t subscribe to that for themselves. I agree that a man’s work and/or mind is not for anyone buy himself, so I agree that pirating is bad, however, fuck those hypocrite bastards. When they stop whining about Big Business, I’ll stop pirating.

          Like I have heard said: “Socialism is for the people, but not the Socialists.”

          Go ahead and drop us, stupid. Let’s see how far you get with that.

        • http://natanael.posterous.com/ Natanael L

          “Commie europe”? Not a single European country is communistic, and over half of them have right wing goverments. Please stop lying about things you know nothing about. (I live in Sweden, btw. Right wing goverment here too.)

          Oh, and do you REALLY believe that anything and everything that is good for business is good for the people to? How is that working out for you in your global recession initiating country?

          Now, back on topic. Pirates are the biggest customers (as in “the people who pay the most cash to the industry”), there are no proven negative effects of file sharing, the total income for artists are increasing and there’s this peculiar thing that’s called Creative Commons that seems to be quite popular and ever increasing in use despite the doomsday theories of the big media company CEOs about anything and everything that is not payed for.

      • Anonymous

        Eeeh yeah, what choice do those countries have? They either bend to the will of the US or the US will stop trading with them. And no country can afford that in this crisis. It is pure blackmail.

        Dear US of A,

        I hope you understand that if we get the chance we will drop you like a brick. Like when China’s economy is strong enough or if the sheiks want to start trading oil in Euro’s. Then you will see who your real friends are.

        Good luck with the debt.
        Love, Europe

      • Sune

        Sweden has not jailed any pirates (not yet anyway) and copyright laws were made to protect the little guy from being robbed of their inventions or ideas by big companies or other financially strong entities. Do your homework.

        • Ninja

          Except that it actually protects the big companies and puts a big spiked dildo in the little guy’s arse. Way to go copywrong.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6KDOIMGW6B56EDRTVAYKOTN2RA Erik

          I love your imagery.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6KDOIMGW6B56EDRTVAYKOTN2RA Erik

          I love your imagery.

        • Paul

          Gross, LOL

        • Ninja

          Except that it actually protects the big companies and puts a big spiked dildo in the little guy’s arse. Way to go copywrong.

        • http://billy.wenge-murphy.com/ Billy Wenge-Murphy

          “copyright laws were made to protect the little guy from being robbed of their inventions or ideas by big companies”.

          Bwuh? Copyright laws were invented by the printing industry. If “do your homework” means read actual, historical facts, then I think it’s your turn.

          I mean, I happen to know this already, but it’s right there on the Wikipedia page too if you take 5 seconds to Google it….

          Also, copyright also does not protect inventions (that’s patents) and patents are not granted to give “rights” to the little guy – they’re granted as an incentive to innovate. They exist under the assumption they’re good for society, not “the little guy”

        • doodad

          Well said, my friend, but since the music and film industries are full of pinkos, their hypocritical money grubbing sickens me. Yes they should make money on their work, but so the hell should the oil industry, insurance companies, Wall Street execs, bankers, and any other industry they rail against in their stupid songs and movies. You listening, stupid Bruce Springsteen?

  • gorehound

    This government really sucks.

    • doodad

      It’s funny actually, that all the people that thought by electing BO, they could do as they pleased, are actually surprised that “Hope and Change” really meant, “Iiiii…’m gonna do the same thing(s) Bush did, but you’ll take it…because it’s me doing the screwing now…and your Big Media puppeteers will make you believe that it’s the best thing for you. Ahhh…thanks for electing me, guilty white, cracker retards!” – Barack Hussein Obama.

      P.S- “Iiii lied about closing Gitmo and pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan! Take that Code Pink bitches! You’ll vote for me again, so…fuck off and die, dummies!” – Barack H. Obama

  • http://www.curashare.net CuraHack

    Simple move the website to an offshore server, and your safe ;-)

    • Anon

      indeed torrentfreak.eu already registered and redirects to .com :P

      • http://disqus.com/ Rob8urcakes

        lol that’s sooooooo cool (and comforting too). Thanks Anon :)

      • http://twitter.com/Fluve Fluve

        Having it redirect to .com doesn’t change anything?

        If the .com goes down so does the .eu

        Although TF won’t be taken down, I’m just saying.

        • Hideyoshif

          dude…

          its a POINTER. if .com gets the retractable baton DNS treatment, .eu will point to a mirror.

        • Hideyoshif

          dude…

          its a POINTER. if .com gets the retractable baton DNS treatment, .eu will point to a mirror.

    • http://twitter.com/mshenrick Mark Henrick

      use freenet

    • http://twitter.com/mshenrick Mark Henrick

      use freenet

  • Anonymous Coward

    There are times when it is vitally necessary to put “expert” in quote marks.

  • aroki

    makes me happy i dont live in america

    • Anonymous

      I’m jealous of the fact that you don’t live in America. this country is going downhill. My fourth amendment rights were just violated by the police (they stormed my house and seized computers) – all without a warrant. the police adamantly defended their right to do this. I feel very sorry for the next American shmoe who gets violated… the laws passed by this rickety government really do have a massive effect on our lives.

      • http://disqus.com/ Rob8urcakes

        The BASTARDS!! I thought you were allowed to shoot them in these circumstances.
        Hey, best wishes dude.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_P5JYCZ5TXW7MKJMAZDXJAD5FLQ MrSunnyPhiladelphia

          More likely that they’ll shoot you. Pigs have no one to check their power, they’re out of control.

    • http://billy.wenge-murphy.com/ Billy Wenge-Murphy

      Makes me sad that you think a lame jab against country X vs country Y will save you from tyranny. Way to distract everyone from real issues.

  • aroki

    makes me happy i dont live in america

  • aroki

    makes me happy i dont live in america

  • http://twitter.com/tehmetalleer Tony Burgio

    This article makes me want to spit nails. None of the shit he’s predicting would ever happen, and he should be glad of that for his own sake. Doubtless his own free speech and right to make such fearmongering blog posts would be next on the dictatorial chopping block if it did.

    • Nunya

      The sad part is, it’s going to happen the way the US is moving in support of copywrong. America is going down the shitter and has been for a long time. I’m scared of the government especially when they say, “We are here to help you.”

      /shudder

  • jack

    What a complete fecking moron lol…

    J.

  • Moses Avalon

    Hey, nice slam. Couple of counter-counter points:

    But first: Narcissistic– yeah, I’m probably guilty of a bit of that– doesn’t make me wrong and it has nothing to do with the facts, so why attack me personally if your argument was a valid one? Didn’t you take debating 101: attacking the journalist is only done if you think your facts are weak. So, I’m taking your slam as a compliment. Thanks.

    Anyway, to the issues at hand:

    First, I just quoted the general legal opinion in my piece on how the White Paper is being interpreted– and that interpretation is most certainly that illegal P2P of music and those who encourage are its target. That’s not just my opinion but others who know far more than me. (I guess they are narcissists too?)

    Second, why don’t you offer some links with a counter-interpretation that’s from a qualified legal source? Doing that would both educate your readers and be a more effective way to make me look ridiculous than calling me names. The post above offers no links to any other experts.

    Next point, I do not say that the shut down of you or any of the sites on my list, is a given. I said that they will have to change a if they want to avoid investigation.

    “either shut down voluntarily, [or] radically change their business model.”

    As for Grooveshark and iMesh they are not RIAA “approved” as you state. I imagine in time, now that Big Content has (or will have) the big stick these “Sharing” sites will be a bit more compliant and will all eventually be “approved” or go under.

    And finally, Ray’s site– there you are truly miss-characterizing my response. I offered, as a courtesy, to remove him from the list upon his request, which he did and which I did– even though I think his site belongs on it. That’s how narcissistic I am. :-)

    Well, gotta go now. I see a mirror that I’m going to gaze into uncontrollably.

    • Anonymous

      Someone must think that US law = World Law. Do you even understand how this new fangled internet works?

      • Hater

        Tell that to Germany. If your site can be seen there, they claim they have the right to sue you there. Or the same with California, who’s auto emissions laws force all cars delivered to the US comply with their higher standards. Welcome to life.

        • Sdf

          Yeah, they can demand whatever they want, doesn’t mean it is going to happen.

        • Hideyoshif

          Sorry to say but they are all cretins.

          1) You can sue whoever you want, but that doesn’t mean anything. Why would anyone even SHOW UP in court in California or Germany if they are not there, and have no nexus there? The only credible answer is “It is nice that you think I should cease and desist publishing my site, and that I owe you damages. Too bad I could care less”

          2) only real issue is if they can block your DNS or IP from viewers in their jurisdictions. The answer here will be P2PDNS and dynamic mirroring.

          Beware the geek…. throughout all of history, he has always triumphed over the suit, in everything that matters to him.

    • Anonymous

      Someone must think that US law = World Law. Do you even understand how this new fangled internet works?

    • Bob de zob

      Hey Moses.

      I don’t think you’ve understood anything…
      Things have changed, it’s too late to put the genie back in the bottle… You and your pals missed the turn because of your short termist cupidity…

      Move on… You’ve lost this battle already…

      • Dangtr

        Actually the initial battle may have been lost but the war is far from over.
        Even small labels and independent musicians are starting to realize that without someone buying your music you don’t have the time (because you’re working another job) or the income (if you’re are professional musician) to continue to make music. It doesn’t do anything for you as a musician to have a-quarter-million downloads or hits if they are all free. Your music is out there but you’ve invested a bunch of time and your personal money to make and record that music.

        If you’re one of those people who appreciate a great song, played by excellent musicians, and recorded at professional studios then supporting those who make music by buying it (indie or major label). If you want to continue to “fight-the-good-fight” and “stick-it-to-the-system” then buy your music from non-RIAA labels and independent musicians. In fact, if people were to support these small labels who don’t qualify for RIAA membership (yes the RIAA has to want you before you can become a member) you’d hasten the demise of the system and affect real change.

        Spreading every piece of music you can get your hands on via sharing isn’t doing anything more than increasing the ability of the RIAA and their major label members to keep the small and indie record labels crippled and prevent them from competing with them. The RIAA, in turn, thanks you for crippling the indie labels by convincing our government to pass more laws to greater increase their control of the market. Continuing the path P2P advocates have chosen is ultimately going to result in fewer choices and the eventual demise of the system as the RIAA lobbies more government control of Copyrighted material for the financial benefit of their members – large media corporations.

        Wake-up everyone, you’re helping them much more than hurting them. Wanna hurt the RIAA? Go out and buy some music this week. Not a download, a CD. Get it from a local band, a guy playing a gig at a local bar, a record label that you don’t know, one of the few remaining independent record stores in your town or CDbaby.com. Then, here;s the hard part, don’t rip it and post it on your P2P network. You can still blog about it, tell everyone you can if you like the music and then direct everyone to go buy that music. Do something that will affect a positive change instead of sitting on your @$$.

        • Bob de zob

          I was merely describing the situation, not making a moral statement…

          To be honest, the puck is with the music industry, it’s for them to be innovative and come up with a business model that satisfies the field constraints…

          If they don’t do it, then indeed, the industry might go extinct in its current form… I’m pretty confident that music and artists will still be there… I mean, they were there before they were enslaved by corporate greed!

        • Jiggawatt_77

          Um as a musician myself … I can tell that we don’t really make that much from an album or a single …. money is made from licensing said music for commercials, ads. or soundtracks (T.V. or movies) …or the majority from touring … Ticket sales are the big bucks … The bigger the venue the bigger the paycheck … Albums sales don’t really matter as even on paysites like itunes we’re shifting back to a buy by the single music industry like we had in the 50′s with 45′s …Albums are filler alot of the times and consumers are smarter that the industry thinks hense the creation of itunes and the like.

          Think of an album as a movie trailer for the major motion picture that is the tour.

          Free downloading is essential and has become integral in indie bands getting hype and word of mouth. Look at the music industry these days … Look at all the genres that coexist at the same time … we are in a period where the industry has become all inclusive because more and more music from unknown artists are reaching ears. Those ears belong to us that download the the albums for free and then spread the word or attend those bands shows … which in turn gains the artists recognition and helps them to find the ears of the paying public.

          We all are essentially the street teams of artists we find and like. We have become an integral FREE part of the record industry .. ESPECIALLY to the indie artist.

    • DocGerbil100

      Hello, Mr Avalon. I’ve read your blog and the articles you link to. It’s an interesting point of view, and does contain a few things I would normally seek to discuss. Unfortunately, we won’t be discussing anything.

      Because your blog also contains this astonishing pearl of wisdom, given in relation not just to blogs like TorrentFreak, but also to sites that merely provide legal advice and information not to the RIAA’s benefit:
      “These guys are no different in my view than racist blogs inciting gay-bashing, and Antisemitism or “Freedom” blogs that are vestibules for home-grown terrorism.”

      In effect, you’ve told us that you feel that directly or indirectly encouraging someone to download through p2p is the same as encouraging someone to kill hundreds of innocent people by detonating a truck filled with explosives in front of a government building.

      That giving legal advice to P2P users is the same as telling them to go out into the street and randomly commit the rape or torture or murder of someone, simply because they are black or Jewish or gay.

      That a recommendation to not pay you your ten cents is the same as a demand for the enslavement and extermination of every man, woman and child on Earth who isn’t white.

      You have elevated imagined harm to your bank balance to the same level as mass-genocide, thereby proving your sociopathic narcissism far beyond any possibility doubt whatsoever.

      You have also deprecated the worst atrocities of modern times to being no more important than the your pocket-change, thereby proving yourself to be the most racist, anti-semitic, homophobic bigot this side of the Ku Klux Klan.

      The only possibility that might save you is the chance that you are simply too monumentally stupid and too profoundly ignorant to actually know what you’re writing – in which case, you are clearly utterly unfit to write a single word on the internet without mature supervision, to say nothing of being singularly untrustworthy.

      I’m presuming you’re in the USA. You may think my response to be somewhat disproportionate. I don’t believe it is. You should be aware that if you were in the UK, you would now almost certainly be under investigation by the police on suspicion of promoting racial hatred.

      Whichever way it shakes out, Mr Avalon, you are a twisted, obscene and abhorrent excuse for a man, no more worthy of human respect than the dirt under my shoes. You deserve nothing further from anyone, save for absolute contempt and disgust.

      If I were religious, I would very sincerely wish for you to die and burn in hell for all eternity. As I am not religious, a request for your suicide as soon as humanly possible will have to suffice. Within the hour, if you can possibly manage it.

      • Really?

        Um, okay, before I read any more posts repeating this blog’s opinion of Moses Avalon as a narcissist, let me respond with some facts. This post right here repeats that he is a narcissist. Why? This guy single-handedly made music books honest. And for those of you who discount his prediction of what the white paper will lead to, his predictions have almost always been accurate. His books, especially Confessions of a Record Producer, made accurate predictions in each volume so far. And as far as “not being “qualified” and sociopathic blah blah blah, this guy’s the only non-professor whose seminars count for credit at law schools. How on earth can all these people and the original blogger claim that he is not qualified? And where is your proof he’s narcissistic, esp. when he doesn’t even use his real name, one of the chief obsessions of narcissistic personalities? And what, TF, exactly is “the narcissist jackpot”? What?

        But reading over these more, it’s clear there is a thread of stubborn sentiment here. For some reason, the posters here are not only convinced by the blog’s sloppy and misleading painting of Avalon’s report, but share a sort of righteous indignation about the last decade’s theft of recorded music. Wow, I just said theft and if felt weird, because even I have been convinced that completely ripping off musicians’ work is okay, just because technology has allowed it. It is not. You know it in your hearts, and it’s kind of sick they way you guys go on about how people need to accept the future and let go of the past. It has nothing to do with the future, which we create and should create by the way, but with right and wrong. If I had set of t-hertz binoculars that could see into your daughter’s bedroom, and it became common technology, should drive-by peeping be accepted, because that’s just the way it is now. I also detect the general presumption that accepting this perverse interpretation of the cyberpunk credo is somehow cool. Cool to rip off musicians. Really?

        Matter fact, what the fuck are y’all so mad at musicians for? You think it’s just the RIAA who get fucked by the current music climate? How can you possibly think the loss of sales does not affect the people who make the ephemeral, soulful, delicate element of life we all hold so dear to us? Are you all haters or something? The labels are fucked. The big suits have folded, taken monster pay cuts, or been dumped by the wayside. Why… um… why, exactly, is it okay to steal musicians’ only lasting creation? Their work? You guys probably think the geniuses who are out there now could have made it on the road completely of gig cash, eating free beer as they go. Not at all. If they wanna make it on radio or get out there in a big way now they have to take even more soul-sucking deals and compromise their art in a variety of ways. Good job. I wonder how many of you even play a fucking instrument. In fact, fuck you, die, you hypocritical, self-rationalizing, bandwagon-jumping, pseudo-cyberpunk, Steve Jobs-sucking, unmusical and yes unAmerican thieves. Go move your server. Keep running. You’ve nothing to give to anyone.

        • DocGerbil100

          You have replied to my post, but you have not answered it – this is the classic hallmark of a troll. Your post earns no consideration.

        • Lols

          Owned

        • Phobophobia

          I can see this Luddite want’s to un-invent the wheel!

          Proud to be un-American (Rule Britannia!).
          Proud to be a multi-instrumentalist.
          Proud to receive notoriety by sharing what I make for free, because people turn up for my shows and support me (weather its any good or not is up to them).
          Proud to support musicians who perform life – not recording artists who do it once in a studio and expect to be paid for eternity for it!

          Charles Darwin: [I'm paraphrasing] “those who cant adapt to changing circumstances, die out…”

      • Really?

        Um, okay, before I read any more posts repeating this blog’s opinion of Moses Avalon as a narcissist, let me respond with some facts. This post right here repeats that he is a narcissist. Why? This guy single-handedly made music books honest. And for those of you who discount his prediction of what the white paper will lead to, his predictions have almost always been accurate. His books, especially Confessions of a Record Producer, made accurate predictions in each volume so far. And as far as “not being “qualified” and sociopathic blah blah blah, this guy’s the only non-professor whose seminars count for credit at law schools. How on earth can all these people and the original blogger claim that he is not qualified? And where is your proof he’s narcissistic, esp. when he doesn’t even use his real name, one of the chief obsessions of narcissistic personalities? And what, TF, exactly is “the narcissist jackpot”? What?

        But reading over these more, it’s clear there is a thread of stubborn sentiment here. For some reason, the posters here are not only convinced by the blog’s sloppy and misleading painting of Avalon’s report, but share a sort of righteous indignation about the last decade’s theft of recorded music. Wow, I just said theft and if felt weird, because even I have been convinced that completely ripping off musicians’ work is okay, just because technology has allowed it. It is not. You know it in your hearts, and it’s kind of sick they way you guys go on about how people need to accept the future and let go of the past. It has nothing to do with the future, which we create and should create by the way, but with right and wrong. If I had set of t-hertz binoculars that could see into your daughter’s bedroom, and it became common technology, should drive-by peeping be accepted, because that’s just the way it is now. I also detect the general presumption that accepting this perverse interpretation of the cyberpunk credo is somehow cool. Cool to rip off musicians. Really?

        Matter fact, what the fuck are y’all so mad at musicians for? You think it’s just the RIAA who get fucked by the current music climate? How can you possibly think the loss of sales does not affect the people who make the ephemeral, soulful, delicate element of life we all hold so dear to us? Are you all haters or something? The labels are fucked. The big suits have folded, taken monster pay cuts, or been dumped by the wayside. Why… um… why, exactly, is it okay to steal musicians’ only lasting creation? Their work? You guys probably think the geniuses who are out there now could have made it on the road completely of gig cash, eating free beer as they go. Not at all. If they wanna make it on radio or get out there in a big way now they have to take even more soul-sucking deals and compromise their art in a variety of ways. Good job. I wonder how many of you even play a fucking instrument. In fact, fuck you, die, you hypocritical, self-rationalizing, bandwagon-jumping, pseudo-cyberpunk, Steve Jobs-sucking, unmusical and yes unAmerican thieves. Go move your server. Keep running. You’ve nothing to give to anyone.

      • GaborKlein

        I assume that you call yourself a gerbil for a reason.

        I can’t believe your utter misunderstanding of what Mr. Avalon was saying. When discussing the concept of legal precedent, he was not comparing P2P downloading and piracy to genocide and mass murder, he was referring to the concept of someone advocating something illegal having some responsibility for it in previous legal precedent. Perhaps he would have been best served by not using quite so controversial and emotional topics to make his point so that Gerbils wouldn’t twist his meaning.

        In the meantime, you fail to address the main point of all of this, don’t you. You’re so busy trying to attack his personhood and character, that you fail to address the fact that most creators of content want to be compensated for their effort. So now, you yourself, are acting like someone in Nazi Germany or the American Right political machine, which marginalized the character of Jews and the Left to desensitize the public from what they do.

        So what is this really about? As a manager of bands, I can tell you that the work is hard, the hours gruelling, the effect on relationships and families, devastating and yet creators of music, really all arts, keep working at it, because they can’t NOT work on it. Their work is not some simple little “file” that costs nothing to make. It costs them their life. YOU seem to have NO understanding of what a creative person does and certainly you assign NO value. Where is your constructive idea about how these artists get paid? Yes the music industy is corrupt, so what? So is your bank, your telephone company, your car manufacturer etc. Why pick out the music industry when we live in a nakedly capitalistic society that exploits all of us.

        In the meantime, I want my artists to get paid. Not all of them feel like giving away their life’s work and make a living on hawking their t-shirts. You think Picasso wanted to hawk t-shirts. Do YOU? How about giving up your income from whatever you do full time and go play around on nights and weekends making your living by hawking your t-shirts. You can have your employer direct deposit your salary to my account.

        • DocGerbil100

          Moses Avalon wrote:
          “What will they write about next? Who knows and frankly who cares. These guys are no different in my view than racist blogs inciting gay-bashing, and Antisemitism or ‘Freedom’ blogs that are vestibules for home-grown terrorism,”

          Kind of hard to “twist” his words, when they are so clearly intended to be offensive from the outset. He also went out of his way to compare all anti-RIAA websites with pro-paedophilia sites, so it can hardly be classed as a misinterpretation of a legal point or a one-of-a-kind accident.

          Interestingly, his original and possibly libellous list of “p2p lifestyle” sites was redacted from his blog-post on the same day TorrentFreak covered it, suggesting he was well aware of how deeply offensive his post was and wanted to avoid a legal confrontation with the named publications.

          If he had meant to put ‘legally speaking’ in his more inflammatory sentences, it’s more than reasonable to assume he would have done so by now. Instead, he has chosen to let the rest of the entry stand – completely unaltered, as far as I can see – as his own personal insult to the memory of every dead child in Auschwitz.

          You wrote:
          “So now, you yourself, are acting like someone in Nazi Germany or the American Right political machine, which marginalized the character of Jews and the Left to desensitize the public from what they do.”

          That’s not ambiguous either. As with Avalon, I really don’t care what else you have to say, because you don’t deserve the option of being part of any vaguely civilised debate. By defending his utterly indefensible language and repeating his offensive behaviour, you show yourself to be even more of an arrogant, racist cunt than he is.

          You are entirely unworthy of any significant measure of effort.
          Feel free to fuck off at your own convenience.

        • JJBiener

          Your ability to miss the point is truly staggering. Does it come naturally, or do you have to work on it?

        • DocGerbil100

          I’m not missing any points, either made by Moses Avalon or by GaborKlein – I’m utterly dismissing everything they have to say for having been deliberately expressed in a particularly offensive manner – a manner which they can reasonably be expected to know would cause serious offense, well in advance of writing it. If you’re incapable of understanding why I find their mode of expression so offensive, I suggest you take a hardcopy of Avalon’s blog to your nearest synagogue (or child-protection centre) and ask them nicely to explain it to you.

        • JJBiener

          I didn’t realize you were so delicate.

    • Qffgold

      It’s really funny how delusional you are. None of your bogus propositions will bring back the old days.

    • http://disqus.com/ Rob8urcakes

      Oh good!!!
      We’ve another pro-MAFIAA troll to play with guys.

      Bring it on you deluded dummy, but do you want to be ripped to shreds first before being chewed up and spat out like a piece of tasteless grisle, or settle for the quiet life of selling used condoms to jobless people?

      Either way I’m sure you’ll learn a great deal about how to behave and treat people with more respect than you clearly do now.

    • Anonymous

      Narcissistic– yeah, that makes you an asshole.
      P2P is a protocol, that can’t be illegal.

      “either shut down voluntarily, [or] radically change their business model.”
      Lol, that is just censorship if you speak about a blog dude.

      Big Content will be what is going under if they keep on going to war with their users. And i will put an axe in anyone’s head that tries to take my kids freedom of speech away.

    • hotdog

      lmao for the simple fact Avalon is too stupid to research the riaa site and see imesh is sponsored by the riaa and the Sumner Redstone owns cnet downloads.com /cbs etc etc etc and is on the board of the major 6 industry labels.
      For the simple mention of even putting eff.org down lol so desperate. lol oh wait didn’t they try taking down the internet with coica and net neutrality ahahahahah too funny.This dudes a clown probably a basterd child of some snobby rich idiot who can’t even tie their own shoelaces,Torrentfreak ain’t going no where and this law obama(barry soetoro) has to be passed first through the house aswell as the senate.not all government are puppets and there are a few that are honest people. like the heavily praised Ron Paul and Ron Wyden.

    • Moon

      Since you haven’t bothered to unlock my comment despite unlocking some others that posted after me I’m gonna post it again here:

      Funny you should paint Mike Masnick as clueless when it comes to the music business. Just look at how royally you guys ‘with a clue’ fucked it up when all you needed was an economist like Mike to explain the incentives to you.

      And keep mentioning that 100,000 readers of yours. It’s always fun to see someone making a fool out of himself with a proper audience. Even more will come back to taunt you when

      a) none of what you predicted will come true
      b) none of it will make the slightest dent in piracy

      Oh yeah, and don’t forget to shut down Blizzard too, they also use P2P to spread their software. LOL!

  • Asdsadasds

    sadly american laws do not apply to the internetz

  • Asdsadasds

    sadly american laws do not apply to the internetz

  • Cujo

    R.I.P. TF ??? OH NOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo………. !!!!! :D

  • Cujo

    R.I.P. TF ??? OH NOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo………. !!!!! :D

  • http://twitter.com/thornybleeder Brian Thompson

    Land of the free, huh?

    • Anonymous

      Only 33 countries that are considered more free but going down it seems.

      Wikileaks make a good example. Publish their diplomatic cables exposing many examples of wrongdoing and suddenly VISA, Bank of America, PayPal and more terminate their accounts.

      Then poor Julian had that rape matter crop up at the same time which is clearly an American attack on him. I heard before that the local Police said he had no case to answer to.

      Looks like he made their Axis of Evil list between Iran and North Korea.

      • Tomas Sunmo

        Poor Julian?? He wouldn’t be the first powerful or influential person in history who isn’t able to keep his dick in his pants, just look at your own presidents….
        The local Police has not sais anything that you suggest. I guess it’s hard to see your saints go down….

        • Anonymous

          Since I live in the UK and not the USA then I dont have Presidents.

          Also in the political system in my country anyone caught with their pants down would soon be seeking another job. They use a system of fault finding to take politicians out and nothing works better than a juicy sex scandel.

          Back in the USA it would not surprise me if a future President keeps his job after deflowering a 12 year old girl over his oval office desk. In the UK they like to say that the leader of the country should be the best person in the country and if he is failing he should step aside and let a better person take over. In the USA though as long as he makes good policies it would not surprise me if he could really stick his penis into anything and get away with it.

          Let us hope that theory is never put to the test.

          I say “poor Julian” not due to these rape claims but due to the attack by the United States.

  • http://twitter.com/thornybleeder Brian Thompson

    Land of the free, huh?

  • TackySauce

    umm move ur server? ?

    • http://twitter.com/ltamake Link Tamake

      Even if they were to move to a bulletproof host, the domain would still be of concern. Since it’s a .com, it’s still under ICANN’s control. They would need to get a new domain (which they probably don’t want to do).

      • A2884656

        torrentfreak.eu already points here.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Freeda-Weed/100001728244194 Freeda Weed

        there is already torrentfreak.eu which redirects here.. Come on man wake up…..

    • Davis

      where !!!! in de US or any other country!!!???

  • Dkong

    if all this is true, then the guy can’t be taken seriously /ignore

  • Guest

    PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!
    22222222222222222222222222222222!
    PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!

    there.

  • http://twitter.com/ltamake Link Tamake

    I hate how America thinks it runs the Internet.

    • Anonymous

      That problem started when the US Government refused to hand over ICANN so it could become an independent international organization like ICANN and everybody else wanted.

      I can only wonder if they would secretly relocate one day and render inoperable their old headquarters.

      I bet most people here dont know that they would connect to servers in the ICANN building several times a day including the root DNS servers.

      They can track most Internet traffic there. For example when Anonymous does a DDOS attack then back in the ICANN HQ they can map out every computer involved including all the connections.

      You can see why the Internet gets fragmented when US policy cant leave ICANN alone.

      Up to the point of seizing a Spanish domain for a service that was found to be legal in two court cases.

      Does America respect the Spanish justice system? We have two examples that this is no.

      • Anonymous

        Good comment. May i press all coders for development of a decentralized DNS system. There is going to be a real need for this. And it is a nice thing to have on your resume when the world comes to depend on it. I will personally make you an awesome wiki page, that’s a promise.

        • DNS??

          So correct me if I am wrong but IMHO : That is already easy to work around. make a website with a file in txt format (so everyone can read it and import it directly into their own computers host file) with the concerned websites and their IP adress, problem solved…
          No ICANN that can stop the traffic to an IP adress they only remove the website name connection to the IP adress in the DNS’s so…go ahead, what is stopping you. I already listed the IP adress of ThePirateBay and Torrentfreak in my hosts file (just in case :D and no I don’t have a tin foil hat yet)

        • Anonymous

          Them seizing domain names is only the start. The problem is ICANN used and abused and the US Government.

          Keep it up and next comes redirects and route failures.

        • me

          “No ICANN that can stop the traffic to an IP adress”

          True. But network operators can also be subpoenaed to withdraw BGP routes, and make whole parts of a network inaccessible. This will be the next step in the global copyright censorship regime.

        • DNS??

          True, but they cannot disconnect the whole internet, so if your server is not in US, they cannot shut you down. Then they have to block every outgoing connection to every open and paid and hidden proxy in the world and to your servers and its mirrors IP’s
          That will cripple the internet from US to the rest of the world severely. If they really want to do that effectively thaey have to disconnect US from the internet and international communications network (phones), in all other cases it is impossible to contain, there will always be a workaround…. IMHO

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000011216374 Joshua Strobl

          http://dot-p2p.org Maybe you should do a bit of research before posting.

    • USA

      America invented, funded and nurtured the internet. You have it as a result of our largesse. Get used to it, and use it the way we tell you. Or invent something of equivalent value yourself.

      • Anon

        America didn’t invent the internet, it sent CIA members after european workers creating what would be labeled the internet… hired their assistance or bribed the original workers they could, then refabricated it here for defensive military purposes…

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Freeda-Weed/100001728244194 Freeda Weed

        I think you will find Tim Berners Lee is the man responsible for the internet as WE know it. He was the man to come up with hyper-links.

        Sure there was the military net(made by Europeans) but the internet as we know it was by a man from the U.K.

        By the way EVERYTHING the U.S.A has/does it has copied from everybody else, your industrial world was stole from Europe, your film industry was stole from Europe, your manufacturing was stole.

        You need to switch off American Idol mate!

        • me

          Tim Berners Lee didn’t invent the internet. He evolved Gopher into the current Web. Of course, HTTP, Gopher etc… all run on top of TCP/IP, which has been funded by DARPA, with the help of UC Berkeley and other Unix pioneers.

      • Damn

        God damn, how do you manage to not drown when taking a shower if you are that stupid.

      • DNS??

        yeah and Oppenheimer is a real USA name and they did invent the A bomb all themselves and also the rocket technology, all by themselves… by the way.. Fan of jack Mormon?? he (re)invented the bible all by himself :D lol.

  • Anonymous

    I doubt TorrentFreak has much to fear when Free Speech is a big deal in the US.

    Any type of streaming service, which is easily reworked as upload/download, has more to be concerned about and much more so if copyright infringement happens.

    One thing true to say is that US politics comes up with many bad ideas but thankfully not all of them pass when not all politicians are stupid.

    Anyway now you know why the USA on my last check ranked as the 34th most free country on this planet. The UK, my country, came 29th and North Korea was the very worst.

    • http://disqus.com/ Rob8urcakes

      Where did you check that ranking V0? Geez a link pleez :)
      I’ll pick up your reply via disqus my friend as I’m “following” you.

      • Anonymous

        I was talking about journalistic freedom. And it seems that the United States have much improved under Obama when they are now up to 20.

        You can see this listing here…
        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index

        TorrentFreak have also just quoted the Democratic Index.

  • Anonymous

    I doubt TorrentFreak has much to fear when Free Speech is a big deal in the US.

    Any type of streaming service, which is easily reworked as upload/download, has more to be concerned about and much more so if copyright infringement happens.

    One thing true to say is that US politics comes up with many bad ideas but thankfully not all of them pass when not all politicians are stupid.

    Anyway now you know why the USA on my last check ranked as the 34th most free country on this planet. The UK, my country, came 29th and North Korea was the very worst.

  • nt109

    The music industry is suffering because they only put out garbage that appeals to tweens/teens… They shove their garbage down our collective throats (cough cough lady gaga, bieber, miley, etc) and expect us to want to pay them for this service? I haven’t downloaded any mainstream music in years. It’s all rubbish why would i bother. If i want to listen to some real music i will listen to Floyd, or real bands that seem to not exist anymore because of the corporatism taking over the music industry.

    • AMcN

      Actually, the music industry is made up of a few major labels and acts, and thousands of indie labels and small acts. I seriously doubt anyone here differentiates between the two when they are stealing music and ensuring that all those indie bands have no ability to feed themselves by plying their art. Blaming Sony and Just Bieber is a red herring. You are stealing, and you pretend that you are Robin Hood. But you aren’t stealing from the rich, you are stealing from poor musicians and small indie labels who are trying to bring real music into the world, but can’t possibly make a living doing so.

      • Guest

        Actually, it has been show time and time again that sharing helps indie bands due to the vast improvement in exposure. The biggest hit is on the major distribution centers and the big labels.

      • The UnUsual Suspect

        The internet opened up easy access to digital material. The recording industry had their chance to adapt and evolve, and use this technology to benefit themselves, and chose to try to suppress it and go on, business as usual, and now is screaming and crying because the fans refuse to be oppressed.

        20 years ago they were selling CDs for 10-20 usd. Their cost was in producing the CDs, transporting to distributers, adding their markup, transporting to retailers, adding their markup and finally the end user.

        The internet could have allowed them to avoid ALL that cost, getting the product to the end user at much, much less cost, enabling them to buy much more, but the greedy music industry wanted to sell the albums for the same 10-20 usd as a retail store, despite all the reduced cost.

        It doesn’t take a genius to realized this is crazy.

        So they can’t seem to oppress us in a free-market economy, so they are trying to change our government into one that oppresses us, not allowing us to free share digital content.

        If they had decided to sell the albums online for 1-2usd, they would have earned profit, and filesharing would never have become so huge. They invented it with their greed, and now they are crying about it.

        I still buy CDs and movies, but only if I like them. I’m sick and tired of buying something that is terrible and never looking at, or listening to it again, and I could show you boxes and boxes of dvd, cd and vhs products that have been only used once, and are headed to ebay, or a goodwill dumpster.

        There will always be a market for retail sales of these product, and the movie industry is finally starting to “catch on” by delivering movies digitally, but I think it is too little, too late. They had their chance and blew it. Will they be able to adapt and survive? I hope so, but no one knows whats around the next corner, so we can only wait and see.

        • JJBiener

          What part of “It doesn’t belong to you,” don’t you get? While you are thinking about that, look up the word ‘oppress’. While you’re at it look up ‘theft’ as well.

        • The UnUsual Suspect

          Thats my point exactly, they want me to pay for it at a price that is far higher then is reasonable for a digital download, then even after I pay, it still doesn’t belong to me so I can’t let my children and my friends use it.

          Some even want me to buy an MP3 file of my favorite song even though I already “own” it on CD, saying it’s a crime to put that song from my CD onto my mp3 player.

          When tape recording technology was new, they cried and screamed about that and sued over and over again, losing each time. Then when Video tape was developed, they tried the same thing, and lost.

          So this is where we differ. If I PAY for it, I OWN it.

          If you don’t agree to those terms, then I’ll buy from you after you wake up and join the 21st century.

        • JJBiener

          TUUS – “Thats my point exactly, they want me to pay for it at a price that is far higher then is reasonable for a digital download”

          If you think the price is unreasonable, don’t buy it. They own it. They get to set the price. That’s how it works. Not liking the price is not a license for you to steal it.

          “then even after I pay, it still doesn’t belong to me so I can’t let my children and my friends use it.”

          If you want to loan your mp3 player to your children or your friends so they can listen, that is perfectly legal. You can’t make a copy for them, because then you are violating the owners copyright.

          “Some even want me to buy an MP3 file of my favorite song even though I already “own” it on CD, saying it’s a crime to put that song from my CD onto my mp3 player.”

          This is protected by fair use, so it isn’t even an argument.

          “So this is where we differ. If I PAY for it, I OWN it.”

          Specifically, you own certain rights to it. You are not buying the copyright. You are not buying public performance rights, You are not buying mechanical rights. You are not buying synchronization right. You are buy the right to listen to it wherever and whenever you please on any device you own for as long as you live.

          That is what you are buying because that is all that is being offered for sale.

      • tiger97a

        i think you need to go back and do some research as it shows that the music and movie industry is stronger and make more money then ever as just in our mall three new places just open up so i totally disagree with you, granted albums sales our down but who wants to pay for a one or two song wonder when you can buy them for two dollars so your trolling is way off base and so far out you are laughable

    • http://disqus.com/ Rob8urcakes

      In your specific case Dr Cakey prescribes a healthy daily dose of Rock Radio Scotland -

      http://www.rockradio.co.uk/scotland/

      It cures many of my ills.

    • Dangtr

      The reason that there is a lot of tween-pop out there right now is because they buy music. Wanna hear something else, start buying some music. If you like bands like Pink Floyd you can find new bands and artists doing that very genre of music. If you buy it it will be available and you won’t have to listen to tween-pop.

  • nt109

    The music industry is suffering because they only put out garbage that appeals to tweens/teens… They shove their garbage down our collective throats (cough cough lady gaga, bieber, miley, etc) and expect us to want to pay them for this service? I haven’t downloaded any mainstream music in years. It’s all rubbish why would i bother. If i want to listen to some real music i will listen to Floyd, or real bands that seem to not exist anymore because of the corporatism taking over the music industry.

  • Blackplan

    Man, what a tit. This *totally* doesn’t sound like industry propaganda we’ve had thrown at us over the years.

  • Anonymous

    FUCK the government. FUCK the god damn music and movie industry too. They can both go to hell as far as I’m concerned, I’m fine with listening to chiptunes for the rest of my life :3

    Those old fucking geezers running the government and music/movie industries don’t care about anything except money.

  • XKCD

    The new head of MAFIA is former Senator Chris Dodd. Email him your opinions of this BS!

  • SL

    The only way he makes any sense is if he has shares in a VPN company. Hardcore file sharers will either use usenet or a VPN and they wont be caught either way.

    Kids wont care about being caught either. All this will do is turn sharers who buy the stuff they like into people like me who will never buy music again, I go to shows to support the bands I like.

  • Anonymous
  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Don-Dilly/1624894683 Don Dilly

    ‘going to make torrent streaming, also known as P2P sharing ‘

    It makes you wonder who the real target is, filesharers or indie bands/sites.
    Such a move wouldnt make much of a dent in illicit p2p as people would just work around it. What it would do is close down legit distribution channels for the big 4′s competition, indie bands that have successfully cut them out of the loop.

    The one thing the big 4 are going to be more worried about than anything and thats successful (and talented) acts on the major’s roster cut them out of the loop and moves such as this would leave the distribution channels in the hands of the major labels making cutting them out of the loop look unattractive.

    • Asdj

      You might be on to something here. If the bands don’t need them anymore. And they turn to P2P and a website for exposure. RIAA will really be out of business. No one will want to sign profit over to them anymore if they can do it better themselves. So help indie bands get popular = kill RIAA. Dedicate some time to helping an indie band, spend a couple of hours to make them a good website with DL function. Help them make their first torrent or put them in your seedbox. Whatever you can.

  • Robert Larch

    What a load of bullshit,bring on the second American revolution.I wouldn’t piss on these fuckers if they were on FIRE!

  • Robert Larch

    What a load of bullshit,bring on the second American revolution.I wouldn’t piss on these fuckers if they were on FIRE!

  • freedom

    there fighting for freedom around the world, but taking freedom away in their own country.

    • Lol

      Fighting to keep their oil supply.

      There, i fix’d it for you.

  • freedom

    there fighting for freedom around the world, but taking freedom away in their own country.

  • http://billy.wenge-murphy.com/ Billy Wenge-Murphy

    “In fact, encouraging people to commit copyright infringement through P2P services is already against the law”

    No it isn’t. You have a first amendment right to advocate illegal activities. You can say whatever you want on the matter.

    • Hitman

      I’ve been reading through the comments, but yours was just the straw that broke the camel’s back. My keyboard player’s son is in a very popular metal band named after a famous criminal. They don’t sell any CDs at gigs (and they play 60,000 seat arenas) because “our fans take it off the net”. However, their fans DO buy huge amounts of merchandise, which is what keeps them going.
      My band doesn’t play huge arenas. We tour the UK and Europe, usually we break even. The merch does a big part of covering that, because the festivals and gigs don’t pay all that well. After all, we’re an original blues band, not Alicia Keyes.
      At one gig, a guy came up and said “I’d like to buy your CD” (we have four and are working on our fifth.) He continued “I already have all your stuff, I downloaded it all from *whatever goddamn site it was*. But I want to support you guys, so I’ll by a CD”.
      I didn’t know whether to thank him or hit him. Like many, many, many indie bands of all genres, we put out our music and tour and hope they don’t foreclose on the house while we’re gone. Those sales, small as they may be, would help a lot.
      But people today seem to think it’s fine to take music. And because it’s free, there’s little emotional commitment to it – “Hey, I’ve got 40,000 tunes on my I-Pad”
      Right, like you ever listen to most of them more than once or twice. You don’t hear half the stuff that’s going on in the tune, you probably don’t even realize what the lyrics are.
      If you’ve ever created something, like a painting or recorded a song or written a book, you know how much goes into it. Not just emotionally, but financially too. I don’t mind giving away SOME of my music, but dammit – I need to make some of the investment back so I can record more music! And pay touring costs – why do you think even big acts have sponsors for their tours? Because it’s insanely expensive!!!
      I guess my point is this: you’ll steal music. You’ll steal movies. You’ll steal books and programs and think it’s all fine. But you’ll want to get paid for YOUR work at your job. You’re a hypocrite. You’re a thief. And you’re fine with that. But don’t think you’re a victim or that you’re right.

      • Guest

        I understand your frustration. The major Hollywood industries are getting phased out like the old candle-makers and cobblers of the past. Performers, such as yourself, will likely survive but only if you reinvent the way you do business. You won’t be able to use the major labels anymore and you won’t be able to rely on music to sell itself anymore, but if you are able to adapt, you will be able to continue doing what you love and still be able to make a living off it. If you do not believe that is possible, you will likely be phased out too.

        Also, one of the first changes you should consider making is being happy that your fans are even listening to your music. If they are even downloading it, then they are interested. The big question is, can you convert some of that interest into monetary support without attacking your fan-base. (Like you are doing in the post above.)

        Good luck to you and all other musicians and screw the outdated distribution companies.

        • Maria

          Reinvent the way we do business…. hummm, meaning adapt to theft… OK, we’ll do just that…GO OBAMA GO! Collect those taxes! Yep, he’s adapting OK. I like the way the government is adapting… stopping theft. A very easy place to start.

        • Guest

          I would just like to say that I am disappointed that you consider it theft. This does show me that you are among those who will not be able to make a living in the age of free information.

      • thesnuke

        You’re lucky… you have a job. You’re a minstrel. There was a time when musicians played music for the love of, well, the music. Not to make money. If they made some cash, that was called a fringe benefit, not a job. The fact that you make a living from playing shows and selling merch, I would say that you were one of the lucky ones.

        Before mega selling bands changed the face of the industry, playing shows is how musicians made thier money. Asks Billy Staryhorn how much he made from the sales of “Take the A train”. Shit, ask Duke Ellington how much he made off sales of “Take the A train”. Any money that came from the sales of that tune, was swindled from both of those cats by the publisher.

        They made thier money and “Legend” touring and playing shows and taking the music to the people.

        That’s what musicians do. Ask the Grateful Dead how much they made from record sales. They made millions, lets say that again “Millions” from touring and building a fan base that would come see them over and over again.

        Quit your crying about people stealing your music. Go play a fucking show and build a fan base. You should be honored if someone wanted to dowload your music.
        If your music is good and you’re lucky, maybe just maybe, after paying bills to survive this shit storm, someone might have the cash to come see one of your shows.

        That what a musician does…..rock on……..

        • Maria

          From a professional musician’s perspective: Please do not come to our shows, or listen to our music. We don’t need or want you!

        • music fan (but not yours)

          Which ultimately means we dont need or want you! Uhhh, could you be a little dumber?? Without people listening to your “music” in whatever form, your smartass goes HUNGRY! So wtg, even if you told me who you are I will NEVER buy your shit…or listen to it for that matter, so you just lost a potential fan and sale….brightass!

        • Gueststarwhite

          Most artists are only in it for the money. Right Maria? If people don’t want to pay $25.00 to £50 per music CD like the “good old days” you don’t like them. Lets bring back the “good old days” before people had the ability to share data…make them pay through the bloody nose, right? People sharing shouldn’t be criminal. Its not done for profit. Why do musicians need money for mounds of alcohol & drugs & HUGE estates with massive car collections & private jets? Those days are over. People want honest people who want to make music simply because they want to SHARE it..there that ugly word again Maria, S H A R E.

        • JJBiener

          GSW, Seriously? Do you think most musicians have huge estates, car collections and private jets? Really? I want to know what drugs you’re taking because it is time for you to S H A R E.

        • Hitman

          You pay $25 for a CD? We charge $10. Or people can (and do) buy it from I-Tunes, and just buy the tunes they want – although a lot of people seem to just buy the whole CD.
          I paid $7 for an album in 1975, and $1 for a single. That equates to $28 today, or $4 for a single. But a single still only costs $1, and while some companies may charge $25 for a CD most indies and small record companies only charge $10 or $12.
          $10 in 2011 money is equal to about $2.44 in 1975 dollars. $1 in 2011 is about $.24 in 1975 dollars. So the cost of music has actually gone down, quite a bit. But it seems like it’s still too much for some people to pay.
          Sorry, but I just don’t understand that. If you like the music, pay the crappy $1 or $10. If not, just don’t buy it in the first place. Unlike the “good old days”, you can now hear most or all of the cuts from a release before you buy it – heck, you can even pick and choose!

        • Guest

          This sounds similar to “You kids think you have it rough, back in the good old days we walked twelve miles through snow and we liked it!”

          You are correct, technology has significantly reduced the cost of making copies of information. Now it is almost free. The “good old days” of paying to get copies of information are over. Anyone who wants to sell information will need to adapt as the free information age arrives.

        • Guest

          This sounds similar to “You kids think you have it rough, back in the good old days we walked twelve miles through snow and we liked it!”

          You are correct, technology has significantly reduced the cost of making copies of information. Now it is almost free. The “good old days” of paying to get copies of information are over. Anyone who wants to sell information will need to adapt as the free information age arrives.

        • hitlist the poor

          Don’t suppose you can do the math of how much housing utilities and taxes have gone up oh.. and take into account the working poor wage? Re-invent or get comfortable the poor beggars stealing a bit of bread to feed there soul.

          Also there’s a reason I-tunes isn’t a flop and amazon now does that too instead of just cd’s they sell more for less, that’s supply and demand for you. The world is changing as you pointed out, they aren’t going out of business just seeing you cant take more than people have to give.

          It should also be noted that at a lower cost people will use those services to do what a larger portion of P2P “thieves” “pirates” and “racists” do which is demo a band before they buy, I don’t think labeling them racist or what have you is very good I’d probably not buy something at walz-mart if the guy in glasses at the door greeted me with Heil Hitler!

          I’ll wear a pirate badge with honor as I had to pirate windows to install it the leagal copy wouldn’t install when I was under the requirements nor would it when I had changed computers in hopes of going legit , pirate music to keep my computer from getting root kits from music, pirate movies so I can get them backed up which is my right, and if that makes me racist I’ll wear that with pride too. Trusted computing is the worst thing to happen since the copy wrong because it sure ant right.

      • Rick

        Stop whining about your income and the possible foreclosure of your house, it is all to do with how you spend your earnings. The fact that a show and a tour cost so much has more to do with unnecessary expenses and bullshit around the whole tour than the fact that it pays not enough. I have a band and make a very decent living out of it and I share all my music on the Piratebay, actually uploading it myself… before I did that I could not even pay my rent, now I can almost buy a summer house in Spain from my savings… so please stop whining and buy a house you can pay for without a loan…settle for what you need instead of what you want. (i.e. I don’t need 2 master bedrooms I love my wife and she loves me :D).

        Long haired Guitar player.

        • Hitman

          To Rick and “The Snuke”

          Good for you. I’m not whining, you moron. I’m telling it like it is. I’m a musician, from a family of musicians going back 100 years. I don’t need some jerk telling me “how it used to be”.
          By the way – Rick, you can almost buy a house in Spain? Wowzers. I live in New York City, and there are beggars here who can almost buy a house in Spain. Pretty damn cheap there (my cousin from the UK bought one, so I’m aware of the prices.)
          I HAVE changed my business model. That’s why I tour instead of just playing local clubs. But the expenses? Obviously you don’t have a clue. Gas and a rental car (you need that to get around, unless you plan on taking a train and cab everywhere when overseas) is a fortune. B&Bs don’t come free. Feeding the band, just daily living expenses. Plus, you’re not making money to pay the bills at home if you’re just covering the expenses on the road.
          You must be a fake if you don’t know this. There’s no way a real road musician would write the nonsense you did. What, you went to the next state for a couple of days and called it a tour?
          You’re not only thieves, you’re jerks. Best of luck to you both, I hope you do well in your next job after your music dies. The mop end goes on the bottom.

        • A Performing Musician

          I actually respect a (very) few of the pro-copyright commentators here as they are showing their personal opinions with reasoned arguments and without making personal insults. They seem to be reading, understanding and contemplating the arguments set before them. But you my little friend, along with a many other anti-pirates, are not. Compromises and agreements will not be made this way. This is the reason why ‘illegal’ piracy will never stop.

          Please read the entire comments section (and other articles on this site), take your time, think about it, absorb the evidence.. then just consider the fact that things need to change. Instead of bein stubborn and helpless maybe you can help come up with some new ideas..

        • Hmm

          Sounds like your band or you must not be doing to well. My roommates family is into music. They both teach music in high school or lower, teach at a college, and play gigs. SO maybe your business model is wrong? Not getting the right gigs? Why go on the road if its bringing dick in ~ just enough to cover road costs?

          Well if you just do it to spread your music or for the fans, breaking even is understandable. But it doesnt sound like your playing just to share your music or for your fans.

        • Rick

          Hi there again,

          Calling names now? Frustrated because I feel comfertable with a beggars pay which buys me a house in spain,.. yes indeed those prices are low, that’s why I can afford them, and a cab and a bus does not cost as much as a rental car. And what are you whining about gas, that shit costs not even half of what it costs here in EUROPE. And here you don’t NEED (but maybe want) to make a TOUR to another COUNTRY to earn enough for a decent living. I guess you need to get yourself another accountant, I guess he earns more than you… maybe time to do that yourself and save some money there…
          Or can’t you do that yourself because you only have time to make music because all pirates steal your money… euh I mean music? LOL No I am no faker, I am someone that loves to play music and considers it an art and be gratefull that I can do it full time without a REAL job. Oh and ART = MUSIC should be free to all humankind. A performance is what they pay for, and the music is free. Good luck with your distorted view on life and art, reading your story makes me almost ashamed that you and I are both musicians (you make me look bad).

        • Rick

          Hi there again,

          Calling names now? Frustrated because I feel comfertable with a beggars pay which buys me a house in spain,.. yes indeed those prices are low, that’s why I can afford them, and a cab and a bus does not cost as much as a rental car. And what are you whining about gas, that shit costs not even half of what it costs here in EUROPE. And here you don’t NEED (but maybe want) to make a TOUR to another COUNTRY to earn enough for a decent living. I guess you need to get yourself another accountant, I guess he earns more than you… maybe time to do that yourself and save some money there…
          Or can’t you do that yourself because you only have time to make music because all pirates steal your money… euh I mean music? LOL No I am no faker, I am someone that loves to play music and considers it an art and be gratefull that I can do it full time without a REAL job. Oh and ART = MUSIC should be free to all humankind. A performance is what they pay for, and the music is free. Good luck with your distorted view on life and art, reading your story makes me almost ashamed that you and I are both musicians (you make me look bad).

        • Rick

          Hi there again,

          Calling names now? Frustrated because I feel comfertable with a beggars pay which buys me a house in spain,.. yes indeed those prices are low, that’s why I can afford them, and a cab and a bus does not cost as much as a rental car. And what are you whining about gas, that shit costs not even half of what it costs here in EUROPE. And here you don’t NEED (but maybe want) to make a TOUR to another COUNTRY to earn enough for a decent living. I guess you need to get yourself another accountant, I guess he earns more than you… maybe time to do that yourself and save some money there…
          Or can’t you do that yourself because you only have time to make music because all pirates steal your money… euh I mean music? LOL No I am no faker, I am someone that loves to play music and considers it an art and be gratefull that I can do it full time without a REAL job. Oh and ART = MUSIC should be free to all humankind. A performance is what they pay for, and the music is free. Good luck with your distorted view on life and art, reading your story makes me almost ashamed that you and I are both musicians (you make me look bad).

        • Rick

          Hi there again,

          Calling names now? Frustrated because I feel comfertable with a beggars pay which buys me a house in spain,.. yes indeed those prices are low, that’s why I can afford them, and a cab and a bus does not cost as much as a rental car. And what are you whining about gas, that shit costs not even half of what it costs here in EUROPE. And here you don’t NEED (but maybe want) to make a TOUR to another COUNTRY to earn enough for a decent living. I guess you need to get yourself another accountant, I guess he earns more than you… maybe time to do that yourself and save some money there…
          Or can’t you do that yourself because you only have time to make music because all pirates steal your money… euh I mean music? LOL No I am no faker, I am someone that loves to play music and considers it an art and be gratefull that I can do it full time without a REAL job. Oh and ART = MUSIC should be free to all humankind. A performance is what they pay for, and the music is free. Good luck with your distorted view on life and art, reading your story makes me almost ashamed that you and I are both musicians (you make me look bad).

        • Rick

          Hi there again,

          Calling names now? Frustrated because I feel comfertable with a beggars pay which buys me a house in spain,.. yes indeed those prices are low, that’s why I can afford them, and a cab and a bus does not cost as much as a rental car. And what are you whining about gas, that shit costs not even half of what it costs here in EUROPE. And here you don’t NEED (but maybe want) to make a TOUR to another COUNTRY to earn enough for a decent living. I guess you need to get yourself another accountant, I guess he earns more than you… maybe time to do that yourself and save some money there…
          Or can’t you do that yourself because you only have time to make music because all pirates steal your money… euh I mean music? LOL No I am no faker, I am someone that loves to play music and considers it an art and be gratefull that I can do it full time without a REAL job. Oh and ART = MUSIC should be free to all humankind. A performance is what they pay for, and the music is free. Good luck with your distorted view on life and art, reading your story makes me almost ashamed that you and I are both musicians (you make me look bad).

        • Rick

          Hi there again,

          Calling names now? Frustrated because I feel comfertable with a beggars pay which buys me a house in spain,.. yes indeed those prices are low, that’s why I can afford them, and a cab and a bus does not cost as much as a rental car. And what are you whining about gas, that shit costs not even half of what it costs here in EUROPE. And here you don’t NEED (but maybe want) to make a TOUR to another COUNTRY to earn enough for a decent living. I guess you need to get yourself another accountant, I guess he earns more than you… maybe time to do that yourself and save some money there…
          Or can’t you do that yourself because you only have time to make music because all pirates steal your money… euh I mean music? LOL No I am no faker, I am someone that loves to play music and considers it an art and be gratefull that I can do it full time without a REAL job. Oh and ART = MUSIC should be free to all humankind. A performance is what they pay for, and the music is free. Good luck with your distorted view on life and art, reading your story makes me almost ashamed that you and I are both musicians (you make me look bad).

        • music fan

          Tell us who you are and where to look, If its good music we will support you! Always looking for good music without the BS add ons from “the industry”

        • Rick

          Sorry, as much as I appriciate your request and suggestion, I cannot and will not advertise our bands name on this websites forum due to an agreement with my band members never to disclose any name of the band on a forum. I speak here for myself and not for the whole band (and I think that is right thing to do).

          Thanks anyway
          Rick

          One note for the Hitman… I forgot to mention that if you indeed think a beggar in newyork can pay for a summerhouse in spain.. that it is that cheap, than you actual think that 55000 euro’s is a beggars fee, then I need no more proof that you are no less greedy than the bankers that rule your country.

        • music fan

          Tell us who you are and where to look, If its good music we will support you! Always looking for good music without the BS add ons from “the industry”

      • Maria

        Hitman,.. great response, so glad you spoke up! We need more musicians like you to speak up, which is very tough to do as all of us music professionals can see by this blog.

        Thank you and good luck!

      • http://twitter.com/strangeaddict Cristian Datculescu

        Well, i’ve been reading TF for quite some time, and this time i gotta express my frustrations also.

        I CANNOT BUY THE FREAKING MUSIC I LIKE. I WOULD LOVE TO PAY FOR THE GROUPS I LIKE TO KEEP THEM GOING, but unfortunatelly i have to wait for weeks for a damn cd to come to my country [that if i find the damn cd]. I listen to alot of stuff ranging from classic music to hardcore/speedcore and so on. But i cannot get the cd’s because of where i live and because those cd’s are not produced anymore.

        So what do you think i do? I get the music from the internetz.

      • Blatantarrogance

        OK. I’ll buy some of your music. Though if it is of a low quality and not worth of my hard earned shekeils, I can have a refund right?

      • http://billy.wenge-murphy.com/ Billy Wenge-Murphy

        Your wall of text is irrelevant to the constitutional issue I replied on, and the 8 upvotes on your reply are the product of the poor educational system both in America and the rest of the so called civilized world. You’re all D students who failed the reading comprehension section of your tests, on top of not understanding a word that was said in your history, government, and poly sci classes :)

        Again, the legality of encouraging this act is separate from whether you think it’s right or wrong. By outlawing the encouragement of illegal activities, you chill free speech and social progress, keeping us in the dark ages, locked into believing only what is already accepted. You wouldn’t be here today able to have a career so far removed from survival as playing music if it weren’t for the healthy, prosperous society that makes that niche possible at all.

        >If you’ve ever created something, like a painting or recorded a song or written a book, you know how much goes into it. Not just emotionally, but financially too. But you’ll want to get paid for YOUR work at your job

        I write software all the time. Open source software. Sharing is not incompatible with profiting. You need to adapt to this new reality.

      • http://billy.wenge-murphy.com/ Billy Wenge-Murphy

        Your wall of text is irrelevant to the constitutional issue I replied on, and the 8 upvotes on your reply are the product of the poor educational system both in America and the rest of the so called civilized world. You’re all D students who failed the reading comprehension section of your tests, on top of not understanding a word that was said in your history, government, and poly sci classes :)

        Again, the legality of encouraging this act is separate from whether you think it’s right or wrong. By outlawing the encouragement of illegal activities, you chill free speech and social progress, keeping us in the dark ages, locked into believing only what is already accepted. You wouldn’t be here today able to have a career so far removed from survival as playing music if it weren’t for the healthy, prosperous society that makes that niche possible at all.

        >If you’ve ever created something, like a painting or recorded a song or written a book, you know how much goes into it. Not just emotionally, but financially too. But you’ll want to get paid for YOUR work at your job

        I write software all the time. Open source software. Sharing is not incompatible with profiting. You need to adapt to this new reality.

      • Guest

        Jezz. That’s presumptuous from start to end. What, missed out robbing grannies at knife point?

        With regards to not selling their albums at concerts, what do you mean? The band has them at concerts for sale, or they don’t bother at all because if they are like anything like you, presumptuous?

        Its iPad, not I-Pad, the only reason I point that out is, if you’re going to talk the talk get the lingo right. Same goes for iTunes.

        PS this isn’t exactly the best of places to discuss such a topic (especially when taken in consideration with the amount of trolls, keyboard warriors (no offence intended. Same line goes for, Maria).

        Oh…and before you say ‘get off my lawn’, we had it bad in the good ol’ days. TTNF (or is that tits or GTFO). Always confusing the two. Don’t wear out your keyboard.

      • Guest

        Jezz. That’s presumptuous from start to end. What, missed out robbing grannies at knife point?

        With regards to not selling their albums at concerts, what do you mean? The band has them at concerts for sale, or they don’t bother at all because if they are like anything like you, presumptuous?

        Its iPad, not I-Pad, the only reason I point that out is, if you’re going to talk the talk get the lingo right. Same goes for iTunes.

        PS this isn’t exactly the best of places to discuss such a topic (especially when taken in consideration with the amount of trolls, keyboard warriors (no offence intended. Same line goes for, Maria).

        Oh…and before you say ‘get off my lawn’, we had it bad in the good ol’ days. TTNF (or is that tits or GTFO). Always confusing the two. Don’t wear out your keyboard.

  • http://billy.wenge-murphy.com/ Billy Wenge-Murphy

    “In fact, encouraging people to commit copyright infringement through P2P services is already against the law”

    No it isn’t. You have a first amendment right to advocate illegal activities. You can say whatever you want on the matter.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_3BFSPILIQY3AN2EIEK7Y4XV57Q Postal

    It makes all our children felons

    • me

      Look at it from another angle: if you criminalize the whole population, and selectively prosecute just 0.000001% of it, you have a wonderful legal instrument to enforce your power as a government. Next time you express political dissent, your kids will go to jail for copyright infringement. Cool, eh?

    • me

      Look at it from another angle: if you criminalize the whole population, and selectively prosecute just 0.000001% of it, you have a wonderful legal instrument to enforce your power as a government. Next time you express political dissent, your kids will go to jail for copyright infringement. Cool, eh?

  • Annon420

    Time for #opUSA.

  • TC Smythe

    So relieved that Torrentfreak pays its fees to labels – now what happens if one of my files is shared throughout your community? I *am* the writer, artist, engineer, label and publisher! Will Torrentfreak pay me? Where is the money from all these millions of ‘honest’ music consumers who continuously abuse my copyright?

    • jack.ss

      TC Smythe
      Are you really that ignorant that you don’t know that this is a place for sharing ideas and not for downloading files.

      The truth is that you are a nobody that live in a delusion.

      Nobody can download your material because we don’t know who you are.

      After doing a search in the torrent world I found nothing, nothing. We in the p2p community don’t share your material. and believe me I took a good look; Pirate Bay, isohunt, Demonoid, private scene sites. Not even “TC Smythe torrent” using GOOGLE search gave me anything :D

      You really have a hard case of hubris.

    • DocGerbil100

      Sorry, Ms Smythe. I can find your MySpace page and some legitimate sites carrying your work, but nothing at all in the way of pirated material, P2P or otherwise. The website What.CD has one of the most comprehensive collections of pirated music in the world and they’ve never even heard of you. :/

    • Dfj

      The fact that you fail to understand this is a news site and that you can not find torrent files here that you could use in a program on your computer to start downloading something. Means that you should keep your opinion to yourself until you have educated yourself.

  • Eminem

    Fuck money I don’t rap for dead presidents
    I’d rather see the president dead
    It’s never been said
    but I said precedents and the standards
    and they can’t stand it
    My name should’ve been bastard
    the shit should’ve been plastered
    on my forehead with a stamp
    I should’ve been blasted
    I should’ve been had a cap pulled in my ass
    but I’m too swift and fast
    for that, I’m past it
    I’m too old to go and cruise Gratiot
    Fuck that shit
    I done seen a fastest rap shit
    and turning into some pap-pap shit
    that quick
    snap click

  • Moammar Gaddafi

    Obama the great change. The president who once was the savior of the free internets in millions of naive pirate minds. Vote Obama 2012 all you friends of sharing.

  • Ddl

    The fkin idiots are now having a go at torrent freak and even managed to spell the name wrong lmao

    I feel a troll coming on lol

    http://www.mosesavalon.com/mosesblog/972/music-business/torentfreak-fires-back-at-avalon-substitutes-psychoanalysis-for-facts/

  • brianca

    This sounds like something straight out of the mouth of Gary Busey.

  • brianca

    This sounds like something straight out of the mouth of Gary Busey.

  • http://disqus.com/ Rob8urcakes

    Meh, never heard of this so-called expert. Whassisname? Moses Avalon?

    I trust he masturbates far too often to stay in good mental health lol

    • FkRob

      At least he doesn’t suck d**K ;-) like you Rob.

    • FkRob

      At least he doesn’t suck d**K ;-) like you Rob.

  • MegaPlatinum Recors

    Moses wrote this on his mailing list. I’ve been on it for four years – not even sure why – as he always gets it wrong – each and every time.

    “TorentFreak Fires Back At Avalon

    =========================

    Substitutes Psychoanalysis for Facts

    Moses Avalon

    After my article of several days ago about P2P being the likely target of Obama’s White Paper to Congress, TorrentFreak bite back today. But rather than using facts or other sources to discredit the story or its analysis, they use their cereal-box degree in psychology to attempt to discredit me by saying I have “narcissistic personality disorder.” The hope, I suppose, is that this will make a more convincing argument than say, a qualified lawyer or other expert. Others on the site threaten to beat me up and worse.”

  • Titlegreen

    Moses is probably right. Too bad for all the emotions. Everybody get’s bent out of shape when it’s bad news, even if it’s just somebody’s crystal ball, which is the case here. But, from what I’ve read on legal and other blogs, he’s probably right.

  • Maria

    As a recording music professional, I am really looking forward to getting paid again for recorded music. When people steal recorded music saying they are “sharing” it or hiding behind a gap in the law, recording professionals cannot put food on the table. I know Obama is looking for additional tax revenue and I say “Go Obama Go!”

    • A Performing Musician

      Well how about you become a performing music professional and actually earn your money? A teacher in a school doesn’t get paid over and over again (for the rest of their lives, plus 70 years) for each class they have taught. What makes you so special? Recorded music is an advertisement tool, the same as radio air time. If your product is found to be desirable then a very many people will want to attend your live shows. With the internet your advertisements are international and if you build an international fanbase it opens doors for a world tour. Then you will be actually earning your money instead of just creating something once then sitting back to sponge off society. If you can’t put food on the table then you simply arn’t working hard enough or you are not talented enough. Only the public can decide your musical fate, with or without the governments interference, you would do well to remember that..

      • Maria

        Hey Performing Amatuer… Eventually you will get injured such as break your hand (or worse) or get kicked out of the band or get old….I could go on with reasons why you would want to get paid for your recordings… then what? Didn’t think of that? Of course not, because you are an amateur who is not a professional musician. You probably write a song and think it’s a hit; no rewrites for you and no volumn of professional recordings because you can’t afford it and don’t think you need to. Oh well, one of the above will happen to you, but it won’t matter because it’s just a hobby…

        • A Performing Musician

          Eventually (well, just as ‘eventually’ as myself) a teacher or nurse will injure themselves (or worse) or get fired or retire. Why should I get treated any different just because I work in the entertainment industry? Well guess what.. I put 15% of my annual earning into my pension, varying amounts into saving and bonds each year, and I invest heavily in commercial property. I allow samples and covers of my work for free (as long as I am credited) and have no need for volume recordings as digital copying is easily achieved without those ‘professional copiers’. I work quite hard for my money with upto as many as 100 live performances per year. You make far too many unfounded assumptions.

        • AMcN

          If the teacher or nurse writes a textbook,then they will get returns. And they will also likely have a pension that will continue to pay them well after they retire.
          Just because you buy a property once, why should you keep getting payments on it every month from tenants? Oh, is it because people keep using (purchasing) the thing you own? You can’t purchase or use a past service, that’s why you don’t keep paying for a service that was already performed (by a teacher or nurse). Figure out a better analogy.

        • A Performing Musician

          That’s the point I’m making, they shouldn’t get returns. I am effectively self employed so I pay into my own private pension. I kind of agree with you about property, that’s the exact reason I stick to commercial property, if they are making money I feel there is no moral issue. You are totally wrong on the last point, I use many things I have been taught by teachers on a very regular basis, and I use my finger (that was sewn back on by a nurse) everyday.

        • Sj

          So you want to keep paying for your computer every time you use it? Every time you open internet explorer you want to pay microsoft? So no one can ever own anything anymore?

        • maria

          Wrong analogy… teacher or nurse? Recording professionals run the R & D departments of the music industry. This requires ongoing funding. As I said above, it’s easy for a professional musician to tell that you are not. You are guessing at how we do what we do. Try it some time. Do an analysis instead of sitting back in a chair and reading a book.

        • nusic fan

          Oh…so youre actually an R&D technician for some label, well guess what, your masters have been screwing artists for years. If you want to insure your future income find a new gig, twit!

        • A Performing Musician

          Your just a shill. Now your comments are starting to make more sense..

        • Guest

          Excellent response, keep refuting my man!

        • erthquake

          Wrong analogy. Teachers get paid as they work. Recording artists don’t get paid for all the hours they’ve put into a recording until the record is released.

        • A Performing Musician

          You mean just like teachers don’t get paid for all the prep they have to do (in their own time) for a class? Or all the training they have to do before they are even qualified to teach?

        • JJBiener

          Actually there is an appropriate comparison. Teacher/trainers create courses where they teach via video and these are sold either on DVD or via the web. And guess what, they charge for it every time they sell one.

          A teacher teaching in a classroom is the equivalent of a musician performing in concert. In both cases, they only get paid for their time.

          It is important to make sure you are comparing like things, otherwise you end up looking foolish.

        • A Performing Musician

          JJBiener – “”Actually there is an appropriate comparison. Teacher/trainers create courses where they teach via video and these are sold either on DVD or via the web. And guess what, they charge for it every time they sell one.

          A teacher teaching in a classroom is the equivalent of a musician performing in concert. In both cases, they only get paid for their time.

          It is important to make sure you are comparing like things, otherwise you end up looking foolish.”"

          And is every teacher who teaches in a classroom also trying to sell a DVD? Is there a massive number of teachers who create a DVD and then refuse to teach in a classroom, expecting to just live off their DVD sales?

          It is important to keep track of how many times I have successfully countered your arguments to understand exactly how foolish you are.

        • JJBiener

          APM – I think you have mistaken responding for countering. Your last comment wasn’t even relevant.

          “And is every teacher who teaches in a classroom also trying to sell a DVD?”

          No, and every performing musician is not trying to sell CD’s.

          “Is there a massive number of teachers who create a DVD and then refuse to teach in a classroom, expecting to just live off their DVD sales?”

          Actually, yes. Many of the people producing training videos don’t regularly teach in a classroom. Are you really unaware of the vast numbers of training videos out there?

          Next time you try to counter someone’s argument, it would help if you actually knew something about the subject.

        • erthquake

          Once people learn something, they don’t tend go back very often and review what they’ve learned. They already know it, so the people who sat in class (concert) and going to want to get a DVD that repeats what the already know. Music is different, it’s art and there’s an emotional connection that make people want to listen to songs over and over again.

          By your logic, video game creators shouldn’t get paid for the games they sell, and they should only get paid for playing in tournaments for their game, if there is one. Or authors shouldn’t get paid for books, only their public readings.

          Also what about the producers, engineers, and studio musicians? Shouldn’t they be compensated for making a record? P2P takes food off their table as well.

        • erthquake

          Once people learn something, they don’t tend go back very often and review what they’ve learned. They already know it, so the people who sat in class (concert) and going to want to get a DVD that repeats what the already know. Music is different, it’s art and there’s an emotional connection that make people want to listen to songs over and over again.

          By your logic, video game creators shouldn’t get paid for the games they sell, and they should only get paid for playing in tournaments for their game, if there is one. Or authors shouldn’t get paid for books, only their public readings.

          Also what about the producers, engineers, and studio musicians? Shouldn’t they be compensated for making a record? P2P takes food off their table as well.

        • A Performing Musician

          To JJBiener
          I have countered nearly every point you have made on other threads on this page, not a reply but a counter with reasons why you are wrong. Before you start to argue semantics, I am not claiming a full 100% of my replys were counters. I am not claiming to be perfect, just that the current system is not perfect and needs to change.
          “”No, and every performing musician is not trying to sell CD’s.”"
          So OK maybe I should have said massive majority instead of every. But you’re still just arguing semantics. My point still stands, and is still more relevent than anything you have said.

          To erthquake
          You also are just arguing semantics. Just look at the bigger picture. Also I have not once advocated sharing of games, books, movies or software. To think that I do suggests that you are reading everything with an unmovable preconception. You need to be more openminded. I never claim to be perfect, just that the current system is not and needs to change. I wonder why so many pro-copyrighters can’t see that? Producers, engineers and studio musicians are not protected by current copyright anyway. I have never said that anyone should be denied compensation for their work. Just that it has to be done in a fairer way than it is now. P2P is not a solution, it’s a symptom of the industry not keeping up with society. P2P cannot be killed with force, only appeased with change.

        • A Performing Musician

          To JJBiener
          I have countered nearly every point you have made on other threads on this page, not a reply but a counter with reasons why you are wrong. Before you start to argue semantics, I am not claiming a full 100% of my replys were counters. I am not claiming to be perfect, just that the current system is not perfect and needs to change.
          “”No, and every performing musician is not trying to sell CD’s.”"
          So OK maybe I should have said massive majority instead of every. But you’re still just arguing semantics. My point still stands, and is still more relevent than anything you have said.

          To erthquake
          You also are just arguing semantics. Just look at the bigger picture. Also I have not once advocated sharing of games, books, movies or software. To think that I do suggests that you are reading everything with an unmovable preconception. You need to be more openminded. I never claim to be perfect, just that the current system is not and needs to change. I wonder why so many pro-copyrighters can’t see that? Producers, engineers and studio musicians are not protected by current copyright anyway. I have never said that anyone should be denied compensation for their work. Just that it has to be done in a fairer way than it is now. P2P is not a solution, it’s a symptom of the industry not keeping up with society. P2P cannot be killed with force, only appeased with change.

        • JJBiener

          APM, you are becoming incoherent. The subject we have been discussing in this particular thread is your assertion that since teachers aren’t paid more than once for teaching a class, musicians should not be paid for selling recordings. I pointed out that, in fact, many teachers do record their classes and they do sell them multiple times, so your argument fails.

          Your attempt to counter this was to claim that not all teachers record their classes. This doesn’t only fail to counter my argument, it isn’t even relevant. You were the one made the initial claim that teachers don’t get paid multiple times, I showed you an instance which invalidated your statement. It doesn’t matter if all, most or many teachers make recordings and sell them, your statement is still invalid.

          Whining about it doesn’t help your case.

        • A Performing Musician

          No, the subject was should musicians expect to make a living solely from the sales of recorded material. The use of teacher was just an analogy, and one that you ran with because you have no proper responce to the real argument. We could discuss the percentage of teachers who earn their living solely from ‘performance’ teaching, the percentage solely from recorded teaching, the percentage from both (and how it is split performance/recorded), and then compare these figure to artist earning figures, but I won’t because thats not what I was arguing, it was a simple anology that as such was not mean’t to be taken literally, but the sentiment used to illistrate a point. A point you either blindingly miss, or (more likely) choose to ignore.

          I see no whining. Just reasoned replies with clear points that you choose to argue around instead of confronting. To me that seems very week and cowardly of you. I now retire my futile attempts to continue a reasonable debate. Thank you.

        • JJBiener

          You can’t illustrate an point with an invalid analogy. What’s more to the point, is that it isn’t up to you or to the people who read TorrentFreak or the P2P community as a whole to decide how people choose to earn their income. It isn’t your perogative to simply steal an artist’s music because you don’t like how they choose to earn their living. Royalties are a long established form of compensation that has been around a couple of hundred years. Authors, musicians, composers, songwriters, and others have lived off royalties all that time. Suddenly, you are outraged because artists expect to be paid for their copyrights. Well, I am not fooled by your little smoke screen. You want to download music without paying and you are trying to justify it. You can drop the pretense because you are completely transparent.

          Your points haven’t been reasoned. They have been self-serving.

        • A Performing Musician

          Of course it’s the public who dictate how people can earn their income. If a guy is sat on a corner selling rocks it’s the public who decide whether to buy them from him or to go to the mountain to get their own. The public choose whether his rock sellin business is needed or not. Before you start arguing semantics again, I know we can’t compare a rock seller to an artist, or a rock to a song. The analogy is to illustrate who has the power to decide which business works or not. See, an invalid analogy can work perfectly.

          Royalties may have been around for a long time, but so was slavery. Plus music and entertainment in general was around a long time before royalties anyway, they don’t go hand in hand.

          All my points have been reasoned, you just conveniently ignore any point you cannot counter, plus you ignore your own statements, wihout explanation, once I have successfully countered them.

          I will not be replying to this thread again, partly because I have made enough points already that you continue to avoid, and partly because disqus is so awful.

          I know it will be important to you to get the last word in. It always is so important to people who deep down know they are on the loosing side of the argument. I am generous enough to let you have it. You are welcome.

        • Anonymous

          You sound like someone looking to sit on your lazy butt and live off copyright of life plus 70 years. Not that this plan would work well.

          All you describe gets experienced by amateur and professionals all the time. They switch bands due to falling out or aiming for a better band.

          And when your band life is over then time to get a different job. They always say an average person’s life goes through three main career changes during their lifetime. So an opportunity to experience new things and obtain new skills.

          Your problem is the World has changed and the advancement of technology has changed about how people do things.

          Moaning about it wont help when you need to change as well.

        • erthquake

          So, the Beatles shouldn’t have been paid anything for Sgt. Pepper’s, The White Album, Yellow Submarine, Abbey Road, and Let It Be just because they stopped touring?

    • Anonymous

      That sounds silly in my view. File sharing is a great advertising medium of ZERO COST that can bring your music to millions of new fans. The key to success and wealth starts with popularity.

      This is what “Sick of Sarah” has recently done with over 1 million downloads of their album 2205. That is bound to add a few thousand fans at least.

      Traditional marketing methods still remain but now you can sell direct which cutting out the middlemen (and women) means much better profit.

      A good income source for a musician is to put on a concert and to sell tickets. Nothing is better for fans than seeing their favourite band play live.

      So we have free advertising. Zero distribution costs. Income from CDs down to stuffed animals and concerts.

      Then you moan you’re not being paid! That often happens with the traditional record labels it seems. From their 20 year pending payments list to being too old. They do seem to like a pretty face even if she cant play an instrument.

      So all I can say is quit moaning and get working and stop waiting around for others to help you. If you make good music then that would always make income.

  • Anonymous

    I’ve read Moses Avalon’s e-mails / blog posts for years — well, only when I needed a laugh or something to remind me how embarrassing it must be to be ignorant. I still haven’t figured out if he’s really that ignorant (he apparently DOES have a law degree) or if his ridiculous statements are for the sole purpose of knowing people are reading his name, even if it is for a laugh. My criticisms, by the way are rooted in some of the tremendously inaccurate statements he’s made about royalties. I’ve made a career in music royalties and know the facts which he chooses to twist around to make attention-getting remarks. He apparently believes that being an attorney allows him to interpret facts in a way that make him popular. I’ve never visited TorrentFreak before today but I can say with confidence if you were written about by Moses Avalon, the real benefit isn’t hits – it is that people who understand facts will realize what Moses has to say on a topic is usually some shredded version of how things are.

  • Bkwe

    Let’s shut down the internet

  • Sean B in Mad C

    Jesus…these fucking zombie-esque, idiotic organizations like the RIAA etc. need to be let in on a little secret: They may be shuffling around and eating brains, but they died a loooooong time ago. How do you kill zombies again? =)

  • Guestpoop

    b.o butthole.

  • http://twitter.com/Hung_ly Hung Ly

    Uhm, doesn’t this violate the first amendment?

    I’m not from the states so I wouldn’t really know…..

  • The UnUsual Suspect

    It’s hard to believe the american people were stupid enough to vote for obama.

    Our constitution gave us the right to bear arms not only to protect us from harm and fight any invading countries, but to exercise the right to abolish existing government and establish a new one, a scared right we Americans have that was noted in the declaration of independence.

    You watch though, the first thing an oppressive government will do is attempt to disarm its population. This has been proven time and time again all through history. Fortunately, the supreme court just put to rest the anti-guy lobbiest who claimed that the constitution only gave the military the right to bear arms (the most insane interpretation I’ve ever heard), So if our government tries to arrest and lockup it’s citizens for sharing music/files they legally own, then I suspect there will be a civil war.

    It’s just insanely crazy to outlaw sharing of files!!!

    What they need to do is start going after people who sell pirated material, and stop harassing those who simply share files freely.

    • Guest

      Keep in mind that the citizens of the United States only had two options last election. It was either Obama or McCain. You think the government is going anti-piracy crazy now, it would have been much worse under McCain. Obama was the lesser of two evils, so to speak.

      Now if a third party could somehow take hold… I hope someday the Pirate Party gets in there.

      • Afh

        Haha, implying that the president is the one pulling the strings. Lol!

  • shredder

    my first time on this site, since i’d never heard of it before today. probably my last time here too. who knows?
    i believe that the blogist who wrote the attack piece above missed the entire point of moses avalon’s article on the potential consequences of recommendations the ‘white paper’ released in early march of 2011. avalon wrote a ‘legal opinion piece’ which generally involves possible and probable legal interpretations of a particular legislation, oftentimes exposing a worst-case scenario of what courts might read into, or not acknowledge from the language of a law.
    from what i have read of the ‘white paper’ myself, i cannot disagree with anything mr. avalon wrote from a legal opinion. avalon is not the only one in the industry who sees these potential ramifications in the future, when and if the law takes effect.
    i’ve been a subscriber of ‘moses supposes’ for at least 7 years now, and i see that avalon quite honestly reports the potential best and worse case situations involving changes in the music industry regulation and how things can affect major and independent artists as well as the rest of the industry. i believe avalon’s credentials are legitimate, and his intentions are honest. while that is not something i can ascertain from this blog site, i dont see any good intentions in the particular blog above. it is clearly written to cause insulting remarks directed toward avalon and uses misleading statements to add some sort of legitimacy. why the blogger is so angry for the blogs brief mention in avalon’s opinion piece i cannot understand. clearly that anger should be directed towards a more positive goal, of perhaps helping people who enjoy making and/or listening to music.
    my experience of over 10 years in the music industry would describe what the blogger calls narcissistic about mr. avalon to be something i call ‘hollywood’. it is something practically required of anyone in the music business to exhibit a confidence in their skills, knowledge and experience in the business. too much of it is a bad thing, what i call ‘lsd’ or ‘lead singer’s disease’ but avalon does not show signs of that, just a strong confidence in his abilities, which is better than having no confidence (i believe there’s a legal term closely related to that..?).
    one final observation: in the story above, the blogger pokes at mr. avalon for taking pride in having over 100,000 readers of his ‘moses supposes’ newsletter. considering the fact that almost all of my peers in the music business and many, if not all of the musicians i have worked with subscribe to his mailing list, i think that is entirely likely. meanwhile, this website, ‘torrentfreak.com’ posts the statistic that there are over 150,000 rss feed subscribers connected to this website. i wouldn’t hesitate a guess that they are proud of that statistic also. and rightly so in both regards. however i must venture a guess about what percentage of market share each of those numbers represent. ‘moses supposes’ is a primarily music industry market, while ‘torrentfreak’ caters to what i understand to be a much larger market of online music listeners. that would be a ratio of maybe 300,000 (industry) to 5,000,000+ (torrent listeners). just something to ponder.
    ~shredder

    • Guest

      Well, never heard of this “Avalon” guy before… or his blog.
      Is that even his real name?

      Imagine his mom: “Moses Avalon! Come here and clean up your room, right NAO!”

      LMAO

    • the_TMNT’s

      Yeah, we will miss you!

    • Phobophobia

      Astroturfer! or Troll.
      never been on this site before? my arse!

  • MosesAvalonLikesTheCock

    Like my shoop? It’s shit because I’ve only got MS Paint. :D

    http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/9666/lskj.png

    Nah, I’m of course kidding – it’s actual photograph, not a shoop.

    • Not

      j-e-w-s did wtc

  • sonic

    that’s gross! eeeekkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!!!!

  • Anonymous

    Wow, I am sickened by, A: the anger represented on this board, and B: how the P2P crowd is so proud of being thieves. Not to mention the terrible grammar and spelling skills they possess.

    An independent songwriter (we’re not all Bono/Billionaires).

    • MosesAvalonLikesTheCock

      “The P2P crowd is so proud of being thieves.”
      You think downloading things for free is stealing? OK, I wont give you my money then; it’s all copies and you don’t like copies being given away for free, do you? :D
      I’m kidding, but yes – I am proud of being a pirate. Last but not least, the “P2P crowd” represents about 80% of the online world; I wouldn’t be in such a hurry to demonise that many potential fans. ;)

      • Your Days are Numbered

        Your days are numbered… ha!

        • Guest

          oohhh… scary… NOT!
          Excuse me while I’ll be leaving to go to my REAL work soon..
          Unlike you.
          LMAO

      • JJBiener

        What good is having a fan if all they are going to do is steal? That isn’t a fan. A fan supports the artists they like. Anyone who steals is a thief.

        Oh, you don’t think you’re a thief? By definition, anyone who takes something of value with neither compensation nor permission is thief.

        • A Performing Musician

          What good is being a fan if all they do is rip you off at every opportunity?

          Anyone who takes a copy of something is a replicator.

        • Anonymous

          A real die-hard fan wants it all. Official, bootleg, download and everything in the Universe about their band. Bands have this issue that if they obtain anything not official it is stealing. Wrong it is only fans being fans.

          Thief only relates to physical property. There is no theft for intellectual property when making a copy does not remove the original which is why copyright infringement is the correct term.

          Yes we infringe. No we do not steal.

        • JJBiener

          As Daniel Patrick Moynihan said, “You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts.” Taking something of value without paying for it is theft, even intellectual property. You don’t have to take my word for it. You can check the court precedents.

          Even if, as you say, you only infringe, you are violating someone’s rights. Copyrights are recognized as human rights around the world. Are you really comfortable being someone who violates the human rights of others? Is that something that you would like to be remember for? Are you proud of this?

          You are doing harm to people who have done nothing to you. All they have done is invested years in honing their craft in order to provide music to the world. The have invested their time and money to produce a product which brings joy to people. You response to this is “Fuck them.” No wonder you don’t sign your name to these posts.

        • music fan

          WOW, comparing monopoly rights to human rights…theres an idea pulled straight out of your ass! And as far as people not using real names..well theres a good reason for that…lets see..UNSIGNED bumbed out blues singer from Fla..looking for work “in the real world” clear enough moron??

        • JJBiener

          Are you really this uninformed or is this just a gag on all the rest of us. All property rights are monopoly rights by definition. If you own a house, you have the monopoly on that house. If you own a piece of music, the same rights apply.

          You have monopoly rights to your labor. Anything less than that would be slavery.

          As far as copyright being a human right, look it up. There is plenty of documentation.

        • music fan

          WOW, comparing monopoly rights to human rights…theres an idea pulled straight out of your ass! And as far as people not using real names..well theres a good reason for that…lets see..UNSIGNED bumbed out blues singer from Fla..looking for work “in the real world” clear enough moron??

        • Anonymous

          I have no problems with the concept of copyright when yes artists do need protection from people looking to commercially exploit their work. That view around here is generous when many prefer to abolish copyright.

          My problem is how the copyright cartels lobby and bribe their way into law changes for their own profit that violates citizens rights.

          You may care to note that copyright was created to benefit the public. To begin with copyright lasted 30 years where the work in question then became public domain and a resource for future creations. The copyright cartels have now pushed that up to all of life plus 70 years. So long the media is long obsolete. What you gain we have lost.

          The fact is when you release some creation you have do lose control of it when it is now a public resource of entertainment. The copyright law allows you FAIR (and not absolute) protection so you can profit from this market.

          I have been a strong anti-copyright activist for 13 years now and what I have seen from the abuse of copyright gives me good reason to be mad.

          Hide? With just reason I should add. We are at War and I am their enemy.

          I have already done direct battle with the Federation Against Copyright Theft, Federation Against Software Theft and the Fraud Squad in a case that I won. I use the name Violated here when yes I was badly violated by FACT who use all legal trickery available to cause maximum damage.

          I have also been politically active when the real battle is the copyright protection laws.

          I have directly helped, in a very commercial way, for over 100,000 people to take up their legal rights to legally violate copyright for their own entertainment.

          I have never encouraged making the copyright owners a loss though when people should always pay for what they enjoy.

          And yes I am someone who owns hundreds of CDs and DVDs when all filesharing does for me is to avoid buying rubbish.

          In summary I am someone who fights hard for public freedom and rights which get constantly violated by the copyright side’s abuse of the law system for the invalid goal of maximum profit.

          Pick a side and load your weapon. We battle in the courts, the streets for the laws and freedoms.

        • JJBiener

          Let me get this straight. You have been an activist for thirteen years trying to deprive artists of their rights, and you are surprised that those who try to protect those rights would come after you? I am trying very hard not to laugh.

          Your actions seek to deprive artists of their livelihoods and major industries their ability to do business. Did you think they were going to sit idly by? You didn’t think they were going to defend themselves and their interests?

          You weren’t violated. You bent over and begged for it.

        • Anonymous

          My concern is not the artists. I am not here to represent your interests or to fight your battles for you. My only interest is to say there is your market go and profit.

          My concern is the monopolies you create, the lack of true competition, the zones created, the lack of choice, lack of quality and denying citizens legal rights in the name of “protection” and “greed”

          How you deny someone seeing their home TV service because they left your allocated zone in their right to seek foreign work.

          How your macrovision stops them transfering their old VHS collection to DVD.

          How an OS reinstall can lose them their entire DRM paid for media collection.

          How CGMS stops them recording a programme for later viewing.

          And yes I help them break encryption systems and strip out copy protection systems so they can do what they need and what is LEGAL for them to do under the law.

          Yes people can LEGALLY infringe copyright. You try to stop them but then I stop you.

        • AngryBiscuitMobster

          I’m sorry, I just had to respond to this.
          The main reason why thievery has always been a detrimental thing is because, in the past, it involved physical property. This property had value, and when stolen (because it is something concrete), that value is taken from the owner.

          Torrenting and downloading, therefore, should not be referred to as stealing or thievery. It’s quite simply the transmission of electrical signals over wires, which then are analyzed and written to a hard drive. There is no physical property being taken from the owner. You are not going into their studio and taking the physical disc from them. Downloading files creates copies without taking away or rendering useless the original; the original owner (musicians, etc.) is not losing the value of the object.

          Sure, people stretch it and call it “stealing” or “thievery” because they see it as potential profit that they aren’t receiving. By that reasoning you could argue that giving your friend a lift to the grocery store in your car is “stealing” because you aren’t receiving monetary compensation for driving them when the potential for such compensation exists.
          However, you (probably) wouldn’t make this argument, because it’s absurd.
          As statistics have shown, the vast majority of people who download either (1)wouldn’t buy the media anyway, even if the “illegal” download wasn’t available, or (2)don’t have the money to spend on the media in the first place, and thus download it. To put it simply, most of the people who download wouldn’t have bought it anyways, so it can’t be counted as a “lost sale”. Thus, there is no inherent cost or loss of potential revenue (value) for the creator of the media.
          Q.E.D. the musician/producer/whatever isn’t losing anything, and it should not be called theft.

        • Borderliner

          You are confusing those who download and keep while not paying, and those who download and discard the downloaded as “crap” while not paying. The action of the latter is called “sampling”. The music industry encourages sampling, they just fail to mention to the average listener that “free sample” is a marketing ploy that the cosumer has forced onto them (going by logic in the lines of “I can try on shoes before buying them, I can flip through the book before buying it, why can’t I listen to the song before giving out my money for a compete/repeated listening?”)

          > You are doing harm to people who have done nothing to you.
          Wrong. They are harming my culture and legacy, building on the work of those who came before them. The only actual paying for this is when they “borrow” an actual piece of someone elses work into their own. And no, giving credit to your influences in a press interview doesn’t count, it’s not real money. I expect any artist who uses the “my time and money” argument to keep track of, and constantly pay to, those who made their art possible, starting with states of all the other artists whose art they have seen/listened to since their childhood and ending with the music teacher they had in the 5th grade. Not to mention dear old grandma who used to sing public domain lullaby songs when the artist was little.

        • Anonymous

          The two are not mutually exclusive. P2P is stealing – agreed. Moses Avalon is a joke – General consensus of people who actually know the parameters of the industry agree.

    • MosesAvalonLikesTheCock

      “The P2P crowd is so proud of being thieves.”
      You think downloading things for free is stealing? OK, I wont give you my money then; it’s all copies and you don’t like copies being given away for free, do you? :D
      I’m kidding, but yes – I am proud of being a pirate. Last but not least, the “P2P crowd” represents about 80% of the online world; I wouldn’t be in such a hurry to demonise that many potential fans. ;)

    • A Sharing Musician

      Not proud of being (forced into being) thieves, but proud to be part of a community that is changing many peoples opinion (opening their eyes) on how things should be run. I will just copypasta a part of my response 2 Maria..

      A teacher in a school doesn’t get paid over and over again (for the rest of their lives, plus 70 years) for each class they have taught. Recorded music is an advertisement tool, the same as radio air time. If your product is found to be desirable then a very many people will want to attend your live shows. With the internet your advertisements are international and if you build an international fanbase it opens doors for a world tour. Then you will be actually earning your money instead of just creating something once then sitting back to sponge off society.

      • Anonymous1

        Anyone who is serious musician must know that to make great sounding music, it takes many hours, blood, sweat and tears, and usually a lot of money invested to get to a point where you’re making a livable wage, so I don’t necessarily agree with the teacher analogy. They are paid a salary for their time and work, albeit, too low these days.

        And I know plenty of successful musicians who do make those nice royalties, but to say they’re sponging off of society is simply unfair. If they’re a decent enough individual, they’re giving back to the community and doing charity work, etc…and paying their share of taxes…not to mention supporting multiple ex-wives…but I digress.

        • Guest

          Hey, a lot of musicians are essentially paid salaries since they are booked up for years at various venues. Also, teachers aren’t magically able to teach without putting in money and work to learn how to teach.

          Things are changing. We shall just have to see who adapts and who doesn’t.

        • A Performing Musician

          Yes you are right it takes time, blood, sweat and tears. Thats where passion comes in. But no it doesn’t take a lot of money, it takes some to get you started but you cannot expect a living wage from the moment you decide to start wrighting music. The creative side of it is more like a hobby, you don’t think about the money, you just do what you love. The money comes into it for performances, which is very much like a normal job where you get paid for the hours you work.

          IF they’re a decent individual giving to the community and doing charity work?? Honestly now, what percentage of musicians do charity work? (rhetorical)

        • A Performing Musician

          Don’t start getting childish about my grammar and spelling, it is half past 4 in the morning and I am half asleep zzz

        • Fjsdf

          How about we decide ourselves to what charity our money goes. And about your ex-wives, if you would care less about money you could find a woman that loves you for you.

      • Bob Malone

        Dear “A Performing Musician:”

        You are clearly not a performing musician. And judging from the cluelessness of your ramblings, you are either 14, or around 30 – but still living with your parents. To tour successfully, one must make credible recordings, and making credible recordings costs money. Touring also costs money, even as done on a shoestring as I have for the last decade and a half. The combined income from recording and touring allows most of us hardworking artists to make a modest living. So let us not have to listen to you smugly opine (especially considering your bad grammar) that you are “part of a community that is changing many peoples opinions on how things should be run.” For that to be true, you would have to actually know something about how things are run. “Sponging off society?” A thief like yourself should know all about it.

        • A Performing Musician

          I’ll just sidestep your attempts to insult me.. You are wrong, to tour successfully (maybe it depends on your idea of success, for me at the beggining success was more about building a fanbase than cash) you only need a large and loyal fanbase. As obviously you cannot just go out and tour within days of your 1st public performance this is built up over time. A good way to create this is to give your fans your music for free (credible recordings don’t cost a fortune). Of course the 1st small gig you do comes out of your own pocket, but the profits go towards the upfront costs of the next, and so on until things pick up. I promise it doesn’t take long to acquire loyalty in fans when you treat them fair and don’t rip them off. Well yes it is late I am tired and my grammar isn’t perfect, so sue me..

        • Maria

          There are no “profits” in your business model Amateur…leave us alone.

        • A Performing Musician

          That’s an excellent and reasoned argument you have. Honest.

        • A Performing Musician

          I actually respect a (very) few of the pro-copyright commentators on this site as they are showing their personal opinions with reasoned arguments and without making personal insults. They seem to be reading, understanding and contemplating the arguments set before them. But you my little friend, along with a many other anti-pirates, are not. Compromises and agreements will not be made this way. This is the reason why ‘illegal’ piracy will never stop.

          Please read the entire comments section (and other articles on this site), take your time, think about it, absorb the evidence.. then just consider the fact that things need to change. Instead of bein stubborn and helpless maybe you can help come up with some new ideas..

        • JJBiener

          Sure, as technologies change, businesses need to adapt. But one thing that does not and should never change is protecting the rights of those who produce intellectual property. There is no compromise with those who simply choose it ignore the rights of others for either their own profit or amusement.

          Do you want a compromise? How is this…since you choose to violate the rights of musicians and others, we will start violating your rights. Which of your rights would you like to surrender first?

        • A Performing Musician

          My reply to “”Sure, as technologies change, businesses need to adapt. But one thing that does not and should never change is protecting the rights of those who produce intellectual property. There is no compromise with those who simply choose it ignore the rights of others for either their own profit or amusement.

          Do you want a compromise? How is this…since you choose to violate the rights of musicians and others, we will start violating your rights. Which of your rights would you like to surrender first?”"

          I surrender my right to remain silent. You will violate my rights? I will no longer reply to your comments if you are becoming threatening. Threats and aggression do not help your point of view. Just read my replies to your other comments and read the entire comments section. Try to understand why piracy happens without being stubborn thinking its just because people want things for free. Be more openminded.

        • JJBiener

          APM – “You will violate my rights? I will no longer reply to your comments if you are becoming threatening.”

          LOL!!. So, it is all right for you to violate the rights of others, but how dare someone threaten yours even by means of illustration. What makes your rights sacrosanct, and the rights of those who choose to record music meaningless?

          I know the arguments made in this thread, this site and a hundred more like it. All of them come down to the same thing. People want music, movies, software and other IP and they don’t want to pay for it. All the rest is noise. They are looking for a justification for their thievery. That’s it in a nutshell. It doesn’t matter what finery they wrap it in, their shit still stinks.

        • A Performing Musician

          JJBiener – “”LOL!!. So, it is all right for you to violate the rights of others, but how dare someone threaten yours even by means of illustration. What makes your rights sacrosanct, and the rights of those who choose to record music meaningless?

          I know the arguments made in this thread, this site and a hundred more like it. All of them come down to the same thing. People want music, movies, software and other IP and they don’t want to pay for it. All the rest is noise. They are looking for a justification for their thievery. That’s it in a nutshell. It doesn’t matter what finery they wrap it in, their shit still stinks.”"

          The difference is I am not using my rights to abuse anyone elses rights. The ‘big labels’ are using copyrights unfairly to abuse both artists and fans.

          If you really know all the comments from all the sites then why are you so blatantly ignoring the huge amounts of comments from people saying they DO want to pay for music movies software etc, they just don’t want to do it within a system that abuses the artists and the fans?

          The only people who would, as wholeheartedly as you, want to keep the current system are the large corporations and their shills. I guess you are a shill. Otherwise why arn’t you saying there should be some type of compromise? If you are only thinking of the artists then why are you not agreeing that ‘life plus 70 years’ is ridiculous? (which the industry wants to extend to 130) If there wasn’t some type of revault then nothing would ever change except gradual changes in favor of massive corporations.

        • A Performing Musician

          The ‘now’ I’m talking about is my reality and the reality for many many millions, just because it isn’t your reality doesnt stop it from being real. I believe the major labels are begining to loose their monopoly, in no small part caused by piracy and the change in attitudes that piracy has brought, but mainly by the solidarity that piracy has helped to cement in all who oppose the major labels.

          Many of the greatest and most successful songs in the world were actually written before the artists became professional. With todays modern equipment and the massive amount of knowledge the general public have free access to, more and more songs (potentially future greats) are even bein recorded, produced and distributed before the artist becomes professional. Often this route helping artists on the path to becoming professional. Remember artists cannot expect to be making a living from the 1st day they have written or recorded a song, it takes time. Also remember that creativity is never, has never, and never will be extinguished by the lack of monetary incentive.

          I understand perfectly well. The question is, How to stop music piracy? Well since piracy is a symptom of the publics unrest with the major labels, when the fat-cats loose their free ride and the majors die then piracy will once more be a tiny hardcore of individuals, just like it was before mp3.com came along. Until then piracy is a form of protest that is working brilliantly.

          You make unfounded assumptions about my downloading and purchaching habbits (or at the very least about my beliefs of the way piracy should be committed). I support indie labels and only download the produce of major labels, many of my downloads are instantly deleted, I just want to be counted. You say the indie labels are the victims of the real damage, but on the same reply you said independant labels are doin very well and growing everyday. Well which is it? You can’t have it both ways! The musicians, engineers, producers, songwriters and lyricists are only casualties if they stay with the major labels. Move to the independants or stay with a sinking ship, their choice. All the evidence points towards current levels and patterns of piracy only hurting the major labels and their associates, and in many ways actually helping everyone else.

          Your inability to admit that even a tiny bit of what you are saying is wrong makes you sound like one of those religious mentalists that still insists the world is only 6000 years old even in the face of overwelming FACT. With this in mind I retire my futile attempts to cure a madman. Thank you.

        • A Performing Musician

          No, the subject was should musicians expect to make a living solely from the sales of recorded material. The use of teacher was just an analogy, and one that you ran with because you have no proper responce to the real argument. We could discuss the percentage of teachers who earn their living solely from ‘performance’ teaching, the percentage solely from recorded teaching, the percentage from both (and how it is split performance/recorded), and then compare these figure to artist earning figures, but I won’t because thats not what I was arguing, it was a simple anology that as such was not mean’t to be taken literally, but the sentiment used to illistrate a point. A point you either blindingly miss, or (more likely) choose to ignore.

          I see no whining. Just reasoned replies with clear points that you choose to argue around instead of confronting. To me that seems very week and cowardly of you. I now retire my futile attempts to continue a reasonable debate. Thank you.

        • A Performing Musician

          No, the subject was should musicians expect to make a living solely from the sales of recorded material. The use of teacher was just an analogy, and one that you ran with because you have no proper responce to the real argument. We could discuss the percentage of teachers who earn their living solely from ‘performance’ teaching, the percentage solely from recorded teaching, the percentage from both (and how it is split performance/recorded), and then compare these figure to artist earning figures, but I won’t because thats not what I was arguing, it was a simple anology that as such was not mean’t to be taken literally, but the sentiment used to illistrate a point. A point you either blindingly miss, or (more likely) choose to ignore.

          I see no whining. Just reasoned replies with clear points that you choose to argue around instead of confronting. To me that seems very week and cowardly of you. I now retire my futile attempts to continue a reasonable debate. Thank you.

        • A Performing Musician

          No, the subject was should musicians expect to make a living solely from the sales of recorded material. The use of teacher was just an analogy, and one that you ran with because you have no proper responce to the real argument. We could discuss the percentage of teachers who earn their living solely from ‘performance’ teaching, the percentage solely from recorded teaching, the percentage from both (and how it is split performance/recorded), and then compare these figure to artist earning figures, but I won’t because thats not what I was arguing, it was a simple anology that as such was not mean’t to be taken literally, but the sentiment used to illistrate a point. A point you either blindingly miss, or (more likely) choose to ignore.

          I see no whining. Just reasoned replies with clear points that you choose to argue around instead of confronting. To me that seems very week and cowardly of you. I now retire my futile attempts to continue a reasonable debate. Thank you.

        • A Performing Musician

          Ignore my long reply two posts above, it was fro a different thread. Sorry.

        • A Performing Musician

          Ignore my long reply two posts above, it was fro a different thread. Sorry.

        • music fan

          Better yet…you leave US alone…go back to kissing up to clowns like Moses

        • music fan

          Better yet…you leave US alone…go back to kissing up to clowns like Moses

        • Anonymous

          If you’re just in it for the money, you’re never going to make great art

        • Anonymous

          Dear “Bob Malone”

          You are clearly not Bob Malone. And judging from the cluelessness about the internet, you are either 80, or around 50 – but never left your city. To tour successfully, one must build a fanbase online, and making credible recordings needs opensource software and skills. Touring also makes money, even if done playing on a shoestring, if you are any good/b. The combined income from web-ad revenue and touring allows most of us hardworking hobbyists to make a modest living with our hobby. So let us not have to listen to you smugly opine (especially considering your way too formal and pretentious grammar for a forum) that you are “part of a community that is forcing outdated opinions on how things should be run.” For that to work, you would have to actually know something about how things are run online. “Sponging off culture with overextended royalties?” A thief like yourself should know all about it.

        • Anonymous

          oops, typo.

      • JJBiener

        Not all music can be performed live. Not all musicians are in a position to put on and promote a concert.

        Recorded music is a product. It obviously has value or you wouldn’t be downloading it. If you take something of value without paying for it or having permission, you are a thief. It isn’t anymore complicated than that.

        BTW, who is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to steal music?

        • A Performing Musician

          ALL music can be performed live, you need to learn to think outside of the box. If a musician is not in a position to put on and promote a live performance then they need to change careers.

          I am the consumer therefore I get to choose how I consume. If I am given no viable alternative to file sharing then its file sharing I’m stuck with.

        • Maria

          OK, we’ll think outside the box… hummm, stopping theft… sounds good to me!

        • A Performing Musician

          Do you no longer have possession of your work?

        • Anonymous

          No that is inside the box. See you could not even do it if you tried. That is why your music is un-original and no one cares for it. Stop blaming us for the fact that you fail.

        • JJBiener

          I am curious as to what you consider “viable”. I guess asking you to pay for the music you download would not be considered viable.

          You may be a consumer, but you are not the only consumer. You don’t have to power to dictate to an entire industry how they will do business. As a consumer you have one choice and only one. Am I going to buy this product or not? You don’t get to choose how it is offered, packaged, distributed, marketed or produced. Stealing is never a viable option. Doing so makes you a criminal.

        • Grey Wolf

          Ok, first I am a customer, not a consumer, I don’t consume music…I listen to music, I consume food, water, ect. Now thats out of the way, The issue here that you are failing to see is that people are sick of paying extortionate pricing for CDs we know aren’t worth what is charged. $20 for a CD….really? How much profit do you really “need” to make off your customers? You see a big part of the equation is that your industry has been robbing its customers a lot long than we have been downloading songs. Then theres the whole idea of “you can have this file to play, but only on this one piece of equiptment” Nobody is going to pay 2 or 3 times to play one song on all the various media players they own. The final thing I will put to you is the idea that you can no longer fill a CD with BS, call it music and make a mint off of it, we have the perfect try before you buy system now, and it just pisses you and your friends off that they cant BS us into buying the flavor of the month anymore!

        • JJBiener

          No one is forcing you to pay $20 for a CD. If you don’t think the CD is worth the price, don’t buy it. I have thousands of CDs and I haven’t $20 for any of them.

          The music industry never robbed its customers. No one came around with guns forcing people to buy music. People made economic decisions based on their own desires. There is a whole lot of music I wouldn’t pay a dime for and guess what? I don’t. On the other hand, if someone had a factory sealed copy of Mason Proffit’s album with Two Hangmen on it, I would gladly part with $100 for it.

          P2P is a try before you buy system? That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard in a long time. Most people who use the P2P sites are great at the trying part of that equation, but they must a got lost when it came to the buying part.

          We all know what you are, so you can stop pretending. You aren’t fooling anyone.

        • A Performing Musician

          I am not just a single consumer, I am one of many many millions of a sharing community, a community that has only emerged due to lack of options and frustration at being ripped off. Together we have all the power to dictate and choose exactly how we consume. If we want to download albums of bands we’ve never heard of BEFORE we reward the artist with cash for individual tracks or entire albums that we value, then we will. If we want a choice of unrestricted (no DRM) mp3s or CDs, in the format of our choice, in the country of our choice, then we will. If we choose not to deal with a particular distributor, eg itunes, or a particular marketer, or to have stacks of physical discs, then we won’t. There are too many different scenarios that todays business models don’t cater for. It is not our communities role to create a business solution to these problems, we are not a business we are a community and as a community we are currently meeting these choices through sharing. We will continue to do so until a legal and viable option is available. What I mean by ‘viable’ is both viable for the artist and viable for the fans, but not nessaceraly viable for the (now outdated and superfluous) large record labels.

        • Platodreams

          who the fuck you think you are asshole! Most of the people who is a lover of music, will buy good music. if the music is just a shitload then no one will buy it! And if there is no option for trying out the new entries in the music industry, wtf we are supposed to do! keep on listening the same people. oh yeah when the get old and die, like MJ wtf we are supposed to do?

          So the point is, music sharing community helps a lot in recognizing good talents, and good works.

          And one more thing, the people who doesnt buy good music after downloading it from p2p or whatever it is, they are NEVER going to buy it, no matter what. They are not music lovers! Like you said, you cant just force them to buy it!! :P

        • JJBiener

          Plato, Is illiteracy really working out for you?

          “And if there is no option for trying out the new entries in the music industry, wtf we are supposed to do!”

          There are dozens of sites online where you can preview recordings legally before you buy them, so we can discard this argument.

          “So the point is, music sharing community helps a lot in recognizing good talents, and good works.”

          Do you have any actual evidence to back up this claim? No, of course not, what was I thinking?

          ” the people who doesnt buy good music after downloading it from p2p or whatever it is, they are NEVER going to buy it, no matter what. ”

          Then they don’t get to have the music. Maybe if they suffer the full penalty of law, they will rethink how they choose to spend their time.

          BTW, you might want to look into a good GED program before you post on a public forum again.

        • JJBiener

          I am curious as to what you consider “viable”. I guess asking you to pay for the music you download would not be considered viable.

          You may be a consumer, but you are not the only consumer. You don’t have to power to dictate to an entire industry how they will do business. As a consumer you have one choice and only one. Am I going to buy this product or not? You don’t get to choose how it is offered, packaged, distributed, marketed or produced. Stealing is never a viable option. Doing so makes you a criminal.

        • Jon7272

          they still have the original. and yes if i could download a car / tv / house i would lol you poor sad individual boo hoo i will not sleep tonight knowing you have to work for a living like the rest of us lmfao

      • MusicMan

        the challenge with the argument that making copies isn’t stealing because it is in the digital world doesn’t take into account the whole idea of intellectual property which is what this white paper and this debate should be about.

        You teacher does not get paid royalties for having taught a classroom of children.. but what about a teacher who invents a revolutionary curriculum which helps accelerate the learning of children and makes it possible for teachers without the same skills, experience, or ability to conceive of such a curriculum. Should that teacher only be paid for the first time they teach that curriculum… and then anyone in the class can use that same curriculum and teach it and make a book and sell it?

        Ideas and creations have value. The challenge is that the digital space has made replication so easy that it has made it almost seem insignificant to “replicate” anothers idea or creation without giving them something in return.

        Right now the intellectual property debate is heavily focused on digital products because the law surrounding the web is still in formation. When it becomes possible to recreate anything in the physical world and replicate it easier (like with a 3d scanner and 3d printer) then this utopian idea of free ideas will collapse in on itself. People will be unable to earn livings creating anything… the only career that will be of value anymore will be services which somehow haven’t been able to be replicated yet.

        Look around. Everything you see is a piece of intellectual property in one way or another… if that intellectual property didn’t have some form of protection then you might not see that object sitting around you because though copying a chair is possible… and requires basic skill and technique which is learnable (sorry if you are a woodworker) some things which have come from an idea take immense amounts of time, research and ultimately money to create and develop to the point where you see them now.

        Simply imagine the comupter we are all typing on right now… can you imagine the cost that went into developing a system like this… no copyright = no way to make it sustainable to develop and innovate. Yes there are some exceptions.. mostly in the open source software movement… but when you start having physical items being copied with the ease of digital items this argument will take on another level.

        Music is a creation. Musicians do perform live and are paid for that service much like a plummer is. But when they create a record… they are creating something much more than an advertisement. That something is worth something… and worth paying for if it meets peoples desires. For those who argue that the copies have no value then learn to play all the songs you want on your instrument of choice and develop that craft so that when you feel like hearing something you can fulfill that want. If you use something, copy something which belongs to someone else, without compensation or permission then you are stealing from them.

        All that said.. I beleive there is a great use to P2P.. but that the creators should be able to use it on their own terms… several bands have released their records strictly on P2P this way because they figured it was a loss leader for their shows… but that was their decision… If someone else took your most prized idea and published it without your consent that is stealing regardless if monetary damage can be proven. Ideas have value.

        • Sd

          Yeah, but if i buy a computer i can do with it whatever i want. Use it in an exhibition, take it apart, change the software, share it with as many friends at the same time as i want. Copyright those takes rights away from me. And when i bought it, i payed a fee on it for recording and storage media as compensation for the files i will copy with it. You only get to eat from one food bag at the time, pick wisely.

        • Ikip

          Your analogy doesn’t really work as if we can re-create 3d objects at will then needing to work within the economy becomes a bit of a muted point.

          If I can replicate food I no longer need shops, farmers or delivery vehicles and neither does anyone else. Therefore all these costs to the economy go out the window and as a bonus I don’t need to earn to pay for these either.

          Building and maintaining replicators and energy creation become huge businesses which will require manpower and me to pay for it and therefore the economy evolves.

          So should we put huge taxes and levies on intellectual property rights for types of foods so we can subsidise our farmers who are no longer needed or should we embrace the modern economy, realise this technology will benefit all especially the poor and encourage our farmers to start nature reserves, parks, fishing lakes, solar farms etc with their land.

          The middle man is no longer needed, fans and musicians can communicate directly and technology has reduced advertising, marketing and many other related costs to a minimum. It does mean that modern musicians need to be tech savy, it also means they can’t now milk fans by the use of distributing recorded music, supply is infinite and when this happens no amount of demand can increase price.

          Fuel costs are rising, touring isn’t cheap and every amateur musician now has a possible recording studio, editing suite and filming equipment right in their bedroom. I don’t know the way forward, as with all economics no one really does, but to not embrace the technology and to attempt to stifle it is a sure fire way to lose all your customers in one quick swoop, supply is now infinite from the moment a song is recorded and released.

          If supply is now infinite for recorded music, it’s time to create demand in another way, gigs, merchandise, shows, blogs, new instruments, ads from youtube and heaven forbid your local pub. The days of making millions from songs/albums is done and the market is flooded with 50 years of recorded music. The industry may well go back to being a hobby and unbridled part of culture rather than a business for most.

        • A Performing Musician

          Yes the argument doesn’t take into account the whole idea of intellectual property, that is the point, as current intellectual property rules are fundamentally wrong. I have not addressed the white paper as I was replying to comments made and not to the article itself.

          Teachers invent new ways to accelerate the learning of children all the time. They do this to help make their jobs easier, for the love of teaching, and to benefit society as a whole. True teachers (who invent the greatest of ideas) do not do it solely for monetary gain. So in answer to your question, yes.

          Ideas are shared for free all the time with no detrimental effect. Infact the opposite is true as this is how ideas evolve into better ideas. Information is free.

          When it becomes possible to recreate anything in the physical world (for free) then widespread poverty will come to and end, greedy monopolies will fall, and the standard of living for the entire planet will be higher. Much the same is happening right now within the virtual world, only the greedy monopolies and their supporters are trying to stop it.

          I look around, I see my chair. The ‘idea’ of my chair is not protected. Even the design of the style of my chair is not protected. The only monetary value of my chair is the raw materials and the time and skill it took to create my copy of the chair. I do not have to pay for each varying use of my chair, or if I add a cussion, or if I choose to rip it apart and put it back together as a small table. It is perfectly fine for anyone to use their own raw materials to recreate their own copy of my chair.

          I’m imagining my computer.. No copyright = no way for greed to control development and innovation. True creative geniuses will always create, develop and innovate, with no exceptions. When you start having physical items being copied with the ease (and inexpense) of digital items the world will be a much much better place.

          All that said.. You also understand that there is a new generation who have a new way of doing things, new ideas that are better than the dinosaurs that came before them. IDEAS ARE FREE. INFORMATION IS FREE.

    • sonic

      Yikes! you suck cawk!

    • Anonymous1

      Oh, I meant to add childish and bitter. To make a cawk sucking commentonly reveals your intelligence and maturity level, or lack thereof.

    • Guest

      We’re not a “crowd”. We’re a huge and awesome community and we’re not thieves. We have real, underpayed jobs and work really hard. Unlike you.

      You’re a broken record and you’re true idiots.
      We only agree that we disagree.
      There, happy now?

  • MosesAvalonPENIS

    Ernesto’s “attack piece”? … Honestly, some people really make me want to put my face in a blender. Grrr.

  • MosesAvalonPENIS

    Ernesto’s “attack piece”? … Honestly, some people really make me want to put my face in a blender. Grrr.

  • CULT-youre

    What music industry?

  • Justkiddingorami

    Don’t re elect Obama.

    Hell no on the copyright crusader. Hollywoods poster boy.

  • http://www.keywestmusic.net rick steffen

    Hey you guys are ruthless. I have an opinion too. Career musician here and quite proud of my music. Hundreds of thousands invested in producing it not to mention my lifes work. I’ve done without many times to get product out there. Why shouldnt i get paid for investing in my lottery ticket? It’s a hard way to make an easy living. Let’s see how you croak when you don’t get paid after doing your work……..or do you work……..or do you get paid stealing my stuff? Get real. Rick Steffen Keywestmusic.net

    • Hidden

      Thanks. I’ll personally make sure everything you have for sale is readily available for download at ThePirateBay. ;)

      Protip: You may need to reassess your business model.

      • JJBiener

        Hidden (how appropriate),

        Whose music are you going to listen to when you make it impossible for people like Rick Steffen to make even a modest living?

        • Hidden

          The music industry needs to adapt to the Internet, not the other way around. If my simple sharing of music with friends causes the death of the current music industry, then so be it. Soon they’ll learn; adapt or die. But in the same way home-sewing hasn’t “killed fashion”, P2P won’t kill the music industry.

        • Maria

          We’re adapting alright… yep, Go Obama Go! BTW, Please don’t listen to our music..find something else to do. We don’t want or need people like you!

        • Anonymous

          There were musicians before the means to record them.

          If people listen to his music then sell them something new. T-Shirts, Mugs, Pens, Posters, Videos, etc.

        • Maria

          OK, so now you want us to be GREAT musicians, but we can only earn money from merchandise? That’s really a smart conclusion…

        • music fan

          What are you going on about here??
          You already admitted youre not an artist, just some R&D desk jockey. The POINT that alot of us are trying to get through to people like yourself is that if you make good music, treat fans with respect instead of call ing us theives, while gouging us for our hard earned money.
          THEN we will come to the shows, buy the merchandise AND the CDs, when we know that the corporate “masters” cant screw the artist out of OUR money we pay to support them!
          Did I use small enough words for you to understand what I mean?

        • JJBiener

          I believe we all understand you. We don’t believe you. At this point in the conversation, you simply aren’t credible. The fact that you use terms like “corporate masters” makes it clear that you have no idea how the music business works.

          Do you know what it takes for a major label to launch an artist? It takes 18 months to 2 year and between 1 and 2 million dollars. Even with all that support, at best 1 in 5 actually makes money.

          Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

        • JJBiener

          I believe we all understand you. We don’t believe you. At this point in the conversation, you simply aren’t credible. The fact that you use terms like “corporate masters” makes it clear that you have no idea how the music business works.

          Do you know what it takes for a major label to launch an artist? It takes 18 months to 2 year and between 1 and 2 million dollars. Even with all that support, at best 1 in 5 actually makes money.

          Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

        • JJBiener

          I believe we all understand you. We don’t believe you. At this point in the conversation, you simply aren’t credible. The fact that you use terms like “corporate masters” makes it clear that you have no idea how the music business works.

          Do you know what it takes for a major label to launch an artist? It takes 18 months to 2 year and between 1 and 2 million dollars. Even with all that support, at best 1 in 5 actually makes money.

          Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

        • Anonymous

          You describe the traditional method of production and marketing. Fine if you love the RIAA and some heavy production values and loads of middlemen.

          The Internet does provide an alternate method and I am happy to point out the featured band of “Sick of Sarah”

          They gave away their latest album 2205 for free and filesharing via BitTorrent has provided people with over 1 million copies.

          For those artists looking to turn talent into cash then nothing counts more than popularity.

          Now they have their fanbase they can handle their own marketing and sales or even rope in the traditional production and distribution methods if needed.

          No record companies. No RIAA. Just a direct band to fans link and their own marketing skills.

          This method also reflects that CDs are nearly dead and the whole future is digital music files transferred between devices and friends.

          Times have changed and artists need to adapt. Dont sell the music, sell the experience and enjoyment.

        • JJBiener

          This isn’t new. It is sometimes called the Maverick Marketing Plan. You don’t make anything on each sale, but you make it up in volume.

          I am just curious how Sick of Sarah is going to leverage this wonderful success into doing things like paying rent, utilities, gasoline, etc. Popularity is fine, but it doesn’t pay the bills.

          I wonder how many of those million downloaders actually are a part of their fanbase. I would also be curious as to how many actually listened to it more than once. The real test of this is when they release their next recording and try to charge for it. Somehow I think a very large percentage of those million ‘fans’ will find something else to do with that money.

          The problem is they have set a precedent. They told their fans they don’t really value their recordings. Now there is no reason for their fans to value them either. Converting them into paying customers is the same problem web sites have had since the dawn of the internet.

          I wish them luck, but I don’t expect they will around in a year.

        • Maria

          An “R & D desk jockey”… LOL! Still, let’s analyze your meaning of “good” music. Please explain it to us… what does that mean to you? What do we need to do to produce “good” music? Please explain what we should do to do that. Please be specific.

          Re ”corporate masters”… who are they?… please be specific.

        • Maria

          An “R & D desk jockey”… LOL! Still, let’s analyze your meaning of “good” music. Please explain it to us… what does that mean to you? What do we need to do to produce “good” music? Please explain what we should do to do that. Please be specific.

          Re ”corporate masters”… who are they?… please be specific.

        • Sdkfh

          Maybe some people that make music for the love of music and not just to get rich.

        • JJBiener

          Many do, but you’re never going to hear them. There aren’t many people who will put tens of thousands of dollars into recording, marketing and distributing music simply for the love of it. If they don’t have any expectation of being able to recoup their investment and hopefully make a profit, they aren’t going to do it.

          There are thousands of artists out there you will never hear because they aren’t willing to take the risk.

        • A Performing Musician

          It doesn’t cost tens of thousands to record in small local studios (or even home studios), with marketing and distribution almost free through the internet. YOU don’t hear them, WE do through file sharing. If we like them we then support them in any way we can, donations, direct sales of CDs and merchandise, and mostly through attending live performances.

        • JJBiener

          You really don’t have a clue do you? If you want to make a CD that will sell a few hundred copies, then your method is fine. If you want to sell a million copies and crack the top 40, then your method isn’t even close. Have you even head of the term “mass marketing?”

        • A Performing Musician

          JJBiener – “”You really don’t have a clue do you? If you want to make a CD that will sell a few hundred copies, then your method is fine. If you want to sell a million copies and crack the top 40, then your method isn’t even close. Have you even head of the term “mass marketing?” “”

          It’s you that really doesn’t have a clue! Times are changing, CDs are no longer the be all and end all. The charts at the moment are a joke, and that’s because the system is massively flawed. You are so stuck in the past you’re as archaic as the big labels. I wonder why thats is. Have you ever heard of the term “shill”?

        • JJBiener

          APM – I think you are stuck in a time that does not yet exist. The majority of income from music sales still come from physical CD’s. Even if this weren’t the case, the gist of the post is still true. If you want to reach and sell music in any form to a few hundred people, your method works just fine. If you want to reach a mass market, your method doesn’t even come close.

          You can say what you want about CD sales or charts, but all of it is irrelevant. The true benchmark is how much net revenue is generated. The world may yet evolve into the one you imagine, but it isn’t there yet.

        • A Performing Musician

          Stuck in a time that doesn’t exist yet? I’m stuck in ‘the now’ and looking to the future instead of looking to the past. I wasn’t referencing where current income comes from but how music is accessed. MP3s, pirate downloads, streaming sites and apps, along with the likes of youtube all added together are a massive share of the market (in terms of figures not cash) and are growing fast, and is only going to continue growing. A relience on CDs and the monopoly of the big labels as a business model is only going to lead to failure. Yes the world is evolving. The big labels are trying to stop (or slow down) evolution. That will never work. I never claim to have THE answers, just AN answer. The only answer the big labels have is sue sue sue. That answer is wrong.

        • JJBiener

          APM – “I’m stuck in ‘the now’ and looking to the future instead of looking to the past.”

          Not, not really. The ‘Now’ you claim to live in bears little resemblance to reality. You still believe major labels have a monopoly on the music business. There are hundreds of independent labels doing very well and their numbers are growing every day. More and more of the mainstream acts are leaving the majors and going independent.

          “I wasn’t referencing where current income comes from but how music is accessed.”

          Without income there is no music. Without the ability to sell recordings. musicians go back to working day jobs and the music they would have created is never made. That is the future if you succeed in denying artists the ability to profit from their recordings.

          “A relience on CDs and the monopoly of the big labels as a business model is only going to lead to failure.”

          Nice strawman, but no one hear is arguing that CD’s be the only distribution medium or that the major label business model is the only one to follow. As I posted to another person here, I don’t care if you download, buy CD’s or use any other form of technology. I don’t care if you buy from the majors, indies or individual artists. All I want is for you to pay for the music you take. What is so difficult or terrible about that?

          “I never claim to have THE answers, just AN answer.”

          Not only to not have the answer, you don’t even understand the question. You seem to have this image of yourself as some latter-day Galahad out doing battle with the evil Lords of Music. You have no idea what goes on in a major label or even an indie label for that matter. You have this twisted notion of what the music industry is like that has been fed to you by web sites like this one. You really don’t have a clue.

          You are right that by stealing music, you are hurting the major labels. The problem is that the real damage you are doing is to the indie labels, musicians, engineers, producers, songwriters and lyricists. They will be out of business long before the majors will.

          If you love music, buy music. The move away from the majors is well underway and nothing is going to stop it. All you are doing is making it harder for the next thing to come about.

        • A Performing Musician

          The ‘now’ I’m talking about is my reality and the reality for many many millions, just because it isn’t your reality doesnt stop it from being real. I believe the major labels are begining to loose their monopoly, in no small part caused by piracy and the change in attitudes that piracy has brought, but mainly by the solidarity that piracy has helped to cement in all who oppose the major labels.

          Many of the greatest and most successful songs in the world were actually written before the artists became professional. With todays modern equipment and the massive amount of knowledge the general public have free access to, more and more songs (potentially future greats) are even bein recorded, produced and distributed before the artist becomes professional. Often this route helping artists on the path to becoming professional. Remember artists cannot expect to be making a living from the 1st day they have written or recorded a song, it takes time. Also remember that creativity is never, has never, and never will be extinguished by the lack of monetary incentive.

          I understand perfectly well. The question is, How to stop music piracy? Well since piracy is a symptom of the publics unrest with the major labels, when the fat-cats loose their free ride and the majors die then piracy will once more be a tiny hardcore of individuals, just like it was before mp3.com came along. Until then piracy is a form of protest that is working brilliantly.

          You make unfounded assumptions about my downloading and purchaching habbits (or at the very least about my beliefs of the way piracy should be committed). I support indie labels and only download the produce of major labels, many of my downloads are instantly deleted, I just want to be counted. You say the indie labels are the victims of the real damage, but on the same reply you said independant labels are doin very well and growing everyday. Well which is it? You can’t have it both ways! The musicians, engineers, producers, songwriters and lyricists are only casualties if they stay with the major labels. Move to the independants or stay with a sinking ship, their choice. All the evidence points towards current levels and patterns of piracy only hurting the major labels and their associates, and in many ways actually helping everyone else.

          Your inability to admit that even a tiny bit of what you are saying is wrong makes you sound like one of those religious mentalists that still insists the world is only 6000 years old even in the face of overwelming FACT. With this in mind I retire my futile attempts to cure a madman. Thank you.

        • A Performing Musician

          The ‘now’ I’m talking about is my reality and the reality for many many millions, just because it isn’t your reality doesnt stop it from being real. I believe the major labels are begining to loose their monopoly, in no small part caused by piracy and the change in attitudes that piracy has brought, but mainly by the solidarity that piracy has helped to cement in all who oppose the major labels.

          Many of the greatest and most successful songs in the world were actually written before the artists became professional. With todays modern equipment and the massive amount of knowledge the general public have free access to, more and more songs (potentially future greats) are even bein recorded, produced and distributed before the artist becomes professional. Often this route helping artists on the path to becoming professional. Remember artists cannot expect to be making a living from the 1st day they have written or recorded a song, it takes time. Also remember that creativity is never, has never, and never will be extinguished by the lack of monetary incentive.

          I understand perfectly well. The question is, How to stop music piracy? Well since piracy is a symptom of the publics unrest with the major labels, when the fat-cats loose their free ride and the majors die then piracy will once more be a tiny hardcore of individuals, just like it was before mp3.com came along. Until then piracy is a form of protest that is working brilliantly.

          You make unfounded assumptions about my downloading and purchaching habbits (or at the very least about my beliefs of the way piracy should be committed). I support indie labels and only download the produce of major labels, many of my downloads are instantly deleted, I just want to be counted. You say the indie labels are the victims of the real damage, but on the same reply you said independant labels are doin very well and growing everyday. Well which is it? You can’t have it both ways! The musicians, engineers, producers, songwriters and lyricists are only casualties if they stay with the major labels. Move to the independants or stay with a sinking ship, their choice. All the evidence points towards current levels and patterns of piracy only hurting the major labels and their associates, and in many ways actually helping everyone else.

          Your inability to admit that even a tiny bit of what you are saying is wrong makes you sound like one of those religious mentalists that still insists the world is only 6000 years old even in the face of overwelming FACT. With this in mind I retire my futile attempts to cure a madman. Thank you.

        • A Performing Musician

          The ‘now’ I’m talking about is my reality and the reality for many many millions, just because it isn’t your reality doesnt stop it from being real. I believe the major labels are begining to loose their monopoly, in no small part caused by piracy and the change in attitudes that piracy has brought, but mainly by the solidarity that piracy has helped to cement in all who oppose the major labels.

          Many of the greatest and most successful songs in the world were actually written before the artists became professional. With todays modern equipment and the massive amount of knowledge the general public have free access to, more and more songs (potentially future greats) are even bein recorded, produced and distributed before the artist becomes professional. Often this route helping artists on the path to becoming professional. Remember artists cannot expect to be making a living from the 1st day they have written or recorded a song, it takes time. Also remember that creativity is never, has never, and never will be extinguished by the lack of monetary incentive.

          I understand perfectly well. The question is, How to stop music piracy? Well since piracy is a symptom of the publics unrest with the major labels, when the fat-cats loose their free ride and the majors die then piracy will once more be a tiny hardcore of individuals, just like it was before mp3.com came along. Until then piracy is a form of protest that is working brilliantly.

          You make unfounded assumptions about my downloading and purchaching habbits (or at the very least about my beliefs of the way piracy should be committed). I support indie labels and only download the produce of major labels, many of my downloads are instantly deleted, I just want to be counted. You say the indie labels are the victims of the real damage, but on the same reply you said independant labels are doin very well and growing everyday. Well which is it? You can’t have it both ways! The musicians, engineers, producers, songwriters and lyricists are only casualties if they stay with the major labels. Move to the independants or stay with a sinking ship, their choice. All the evidence points towards current levels and patterns of piracy only hurting the major labels and their associates, and in many ways actually helping everyone else.

          Your inability to admit that even a tiny bit of what you are saying is wrong makes you sound like one of those religious mentalists that still insists the world is only 6000 years old even in the face of overwelming FACT. With this in mind I retire my futile attempts to cure a madman. Thank you.

        • JJBiener

          APM – How many strawmen are you going to put up in this discussion? Do you really believe that if you put up enough obfuscation, the readers are going to forget what we are talking about?

          “piracy is a symptom of the publics unrest with the major labels,”

          I don’t know who you are trying kid with this statement. Piracy is the result of people being able to download music from the Internet for free with little chance of getting caught. The ‘public’ doesn’t care about major labels or indie labels or anything else. They want free music.

          The demonization of the majors is a smoke screen to avoid the real issue. It is a vain attempt justify illegal behavior. Do you want to know how I know this? Easy…

          All of your claims about the majors are either blatantly false or grossly exaggerated. Your claims about why people dowload illegally have been shown to be false by numerous studies, surveys and polls. Even without those, the statistics show that downloaders are indiscrimiate about who they download from. They steal from majors, indies and others with little regard to the source of the file.

          There is an outside chance that you actually believe the crap your pedalling, but I tend to give you more credit than that. If you would like me to admit I may be wrong about something I’ve posted, I will readily admit that I may have over-estimated your intelligence.

        • A Performing Musician

          “Do you really believe that if you put up enough obfuscation, the readers are going to forget what we are talking about?” – Right back at ya.

          My levels of intelligence have no bearing on the validity of my arguments. The fact you bring it up shows your case is so weak that you feel the need to try to bolster your argument with baseless personal remarks.

          You conveniently ignore all the statements you have made which I have proved wrong or at least put doubt upon. You just continue to state that you are 100% correct.

          “Without income there is no music.” – Read my reply, 100% proved not to be true.
          “The true benchmark is how much net revenue is generated.” – Only to the truely greedy. True artists value critical acclaim much more. But again read my reply.
          “The ‘public’ doesn’t care about major labels or indie labels or anything else. They want free music.” – You obviously haven’t read very many comments from file sharers (or just conveniently ignore them).
          You still haven’t explained your contradiction in saying “There are hundreds of independent labels doing very well and their numbers are growing every day.” and “The problem is that the real damage you are doing is to the indie labels… They will be out of business long before the majors will.” – The indies cannot be both growing and going out of business because of piracy.

          I will not be replying to this thread again, partly because I have made enough points already that you continue to avoid, and partly because disqus is so awful.

          I know it will be important to you to get the last word in. It always is so important to people who deep down know they are on the loosing side of the argument. I am generous enough to let you have it. You are welcome.

        • A Performing Musician

          Of course it’s the public who dictate how people can earn their income. If a guy is sat on a corner selling rocks it’s the public who decide whether to buy them from him or to go to the mountain to get their own. The public choose whether his rock sellin business is needed or not. Before you start arguing semantics again, I know we can’t compare a rock seller to an artist, or a rock to a song. The analogy is to illustrate who has the power to decide which business works or not. See, an invalid analogy can work perfectly.

          Royalties may have been around for a long time, but so was slavery. Plus music and entertainment in general was around a long time before royalties anyway, they don’t go hand in hand.

          All my points have been reasoned, you just conveniently ignore any point you cannot counter, plus you ignore your own statements, wihout explanation, once I have successfully countered them.

          I will not be replying to this thread again, partly because I have made enough points already that you continue to avoid, and partly because disqus is so awful.

          I know it will be important to you to get the last word in. It always is so important to people who deep down know they are on the loosing side of the argument. I am generous enough to let you have it. You are welcome.

      • Anonymous

        You may get him a few more fans then.

        He does have a nice looking website but it could do with expanding his range of merchandise. To depend on CD sales when everyone walks around with an MP3 player or better is a strange idea.

        It may be worth seeing if Rick is on iTunes and Amazon. If not then I can only wonder who his market is.

      • Anonymous

        You may get him a few more fans then.

        He does have a nice looking website but it could do with expanding his range of merchandise. To depend on CD sales when everyone walks around with an MP3 player or better is a strange idea.

        It may be worth seeing if Rick is on iTunes and Amazon. If not then I can only wonder who his market is.

        • Ned

          It may be worth seeing if Rick is on iTunes and Amazon. If not then I can only wonder who his market is.

          maybe the pirates..

      • Anonymous

        You may get him a few more fans then.

        He does have a nice looking website but it could do with expanding his range of merchandise. To depend on CD sales when everyone walks around with an MP3 player or better is a strange idea.

        It may be worth seeing if Rick is on iTunes and Amazon. If not then I can only wonder who his market is.

    • jack.ss

      rick steffen
      Wow, another loser with delusions.
      I did a seach on you as I did on TC Smythe, so I just copy my reply because it applies to you as well.

      The truth is that you are a nobody that live in a delusion.

      Nobody can download your material because we don’t know who you are.

      After doing a search in the torrent world I found nothing, nothing. We in the p2p community don’t share your material. and believe me I took a good look; Pirate Bay, isohunt, Demonoid, private scene sites. Not even “TC Smythe torrent” using GOOGLE search gave me anything :D

      You really have a hard case of hubris.

      • JJBiener

        I just did a search on Rick Steffen and I found pages of links. It would seem you are the loser with delusions.

        • Hidden

          Rick Steffen is who he was addressing, (I think).

        • jack.ss

          I know bittorrent, do a GOOGLE search on “rick steffen torrent”.
          Rick Steffen isn’t in the bittorrent sharing community.

          There are places selling his songs for 99 cents a song, they are not p2p they are p2leech. Do you want to blame us for what Itunes and other paysites do?

          This community are not in favour of p2l, we are p2p and we don’t share hes music and we don’t know him. WE DON’T KNOW HIM.

          BTW, Rick Steff is not rick steffen. Your hits on pirate bay and a couple of other sites comes from Rick Steff a keyboard player.

        • Sd

          No it seems that people don’t even want to share his stuff for free. And he blames pirates, but he doesn’t even get pirated.

    • A Performing Musician

      Hundreds of thousands? If that’s the case you might be doing something wrong. If you only see it as a lottery ticket then remember not everyone who invests in a lottery ticket gets paid, only those with a winning ticket do. If it’s just a labour of love then money is not (or should not be) an issue. If it’s purely a career move then you have to treat it like any other career, ie, If after a while your not succeeding then consider changing career. I will once again copypasta part of my response to maria..

      A teacher in a school doesn’t get paid over and over again (for the rest of their lives, plus 70 years) for each class they have taught. What makes you so special? Recorded music is an advertisement tool, the same as radio air time. If your product is found to be desirable then a very many people will want to attend your live shows. With the internet your advertisements are international and if you build an international fanbase it opens doors for a world tour. Then you will be actually earning your money instead of just creating something once then sitting back to sponge off society. If you can’t put food on the table then you simply arn’t working hard enough or you are not talented enough.

      • thesnuke

        Perfoming Musician I love your passion. I agree with you completely. There was a time in the not to distant past, that a record was a selling tool for a band or perfomer. This so called record was sent out to various radio stations for the DJ to play “on air” to promote an up coming show.

        Then when peopled wanted to buy this tool, the industry said “oh my” what do we have here. Hence the record industry was born. Then we had the mega selling artist, again the industry said “oh my” and hence the recording artist was created.

        Now, things are changing and changing fast man. To fast for some in the old school model to accept. Indeed songs again are being use as a tool to promote a show.

        This leaves an entire industy perplexed. I suggest research the history of the recording, to retool and come back to a new model.

        Insulting music fans, and calling them thieves and lowlifes are not the way to promote your music.

        I get it, people are pissed, the role of the producer and recoding artist have changed so fast thier heads are spinning. They’re scared. They don’t know what to do. But sueing fans and wanting them to be put in jail is not the wave of the future. P2P is. Try to embrace it, or go back to school. Maybe music is’nt for you anymore.

        I’ve been in the music industry for my entire adult life…..changes happen. And changes are a coming……

        • Maria

          A music fan buys music…you could not have been in the music industry your entire adult life and not realized that…

        • thesnuke

          “music fan buys music…you could not have been in the music industry your entire adult life and not realized that… ”

          So, I guess there was no fans of music, or musicians before the Recording Industry was created.

          Music has been around before money was even invented. But according to your logic, if they did’nt buy it, but just liked what they were hearing, and enjoyed the sounds of African drums, Celtic fiddles, Church hymes…..etc, they couldn’t possibly be fans of this so called music. Why? because if your not paying me you must shut your ears.

          Oh, you could not be more wrong in your argument. Why did the Grateful Dead encourage thier fans to record the shows, and to SHARE these recordings for free. They even set up a recording section.

          This was a business model that bands like Phish, Widespread Panic, Bela Fleck and an large slew of artist adopted. I guess this people who traded these recodings for FREE are not music fans according to you Maria.

        • Maria

          A music fan buys music…you could not have been in the music industry your entire adult life and not realized that…

      • MusicMan

        Teacher receive pension from their employers.. not to mention tenure (cannot be fired) after 2 years… musicians do not.. The work they create is their retirement fund. I know musicians who have worked 16+ hours a day for over 3 decades and were finally able to retire and have enough trickle from royalties to help keep them afloat. Once their music started appearing on file sharing sites the sales of their music dropped off and they had to come out of retirement and start work again at 65. These songs I am talking about were major hits.. not small town classics.

        When you work freelance (which virtually all musicians are) there is no sick leave from work, there are no company perks, no tenure, bonuses or unemployment.

        Though I realize the system is changing as a result of new technologies, the fact remains that unfortunately the ones who feel the sting of P2P most acutely are the artists on the bottom of the totem pole.

        If you make $100k a year in music… earning half of that would suck! If you earn $30k a year… earning half of that is life threatening. In those situations a person who is doing music does become a mooch off of the system because they have no alternative… except to get a regular 9-5 and make music a hobby… hobby musician = less money/time to invest in creating great music = less music that the consumer enjoys. Imagine if John Lennon had to make his music a hobby.. or Michael Jackson.. or any artist! The world would have been deprived of great talent and music which has moved generations. To make great music takes a great amount of time, money, blood sweat and tears… so in the current situation we find ourselves in the ones who lose out the most (proportionally) are the ones who are busting ass at the bottom.

        To say (or act on what you have said) that you will repost someones work for free on P2P sites is mean spirited and shameful, not only because it means that people will think twice (at least) before commenting on this blog for fear of reprisal but also because you are playing with someones life (and potentially their families lives) and for what? A difference of opinion?

        My 2 Cents… as a full time freelance musician and producer with a family to feed.

        • thesnuke

          Tell that to Leonard Cohen, who was ripped off from his financial adviser. He lost everthing. He came of retirement, because of that. And thanks to a whole new generation of fans that descovered him by way of P2P. His shows are doing quite well, pricey but he sells out. So who is the criminal??

          If it wasn’t for P2P he might be living in a two bit rental. Seriously, redirect your anger. How much have you lost due to P2P Mr. Musicman? You might have even gained some fans as far as you know!! Embrace the change or get out………

        • Kasdj

          Musicians are just like all other self employed people. Instead of driving a Porche you could put the money in your pension.

        • A Performing Musician

          You say yourself that musicians work freelance, so to be fare lets compare to a freelance teacher. The teacher recieves no pension therefore will pay into their own private pension, taking the risks attatched if they choose not to. A musician should do the same. If they choose to reply on royalties as a retirement fund then that is their own failing.

          No, the big (old-style) distributors are the ones who feel the sting of P2P most acutely. The artists at the bottom of the totem pole actually recieve a greater portion of their income from performances, as the very fact they are at the bottom means they are not exposed to large audiences and large volume cd sales.

          There is an alternative, you mentioned it, get a regular job, change career. If you can’t attract a large enough fanbase to support you financially then you don’t deserve to be supported. It means you are not good enough. Hobby musician = less time to invest in creating unwanted music = less music that the comsumer has rejected. True creative geniuses will always continue to create even without monetary incentive. Those only seeking fame and fortune are generally talentless and deserve to be left behind.

          To repost someones work for free on P2P is a gift of free promotion and exposure to audiences that normally would not even know they exist.

        • http://disqus.com/ Rob8urcakes

          Hey MM, I/we filesharers FEEL for you and empathise too. We support you and your valiant efforts to make money from your artistry – IF it’s worth paying for my friend. And that’s the catch, isn’t it?

          Because the biggest enemy of the struggling artist isn’t P2P filesharing for no cash, no profit nor any gain whatsoever (or even the evil MAFIAA and their rip-off, enslaving contracts) – it’s anonymity.

          And that’s where P2P and the internet HELPS you. Simply develop and adapt to the new tech and I PROMISE, if your ‘product’ is good, people will buy it – but you gotta let us hear, see, taste before we buy my friend.

          The consumer is ALWAYS right – and in today’s New World Order of P2P, that’s us.

          btw, true filesharers will NEVER be mean to those artists who don’t deserve it. Trust me on that one at least.

        • JJBiener

          Your actions don’t match your words. or at least they don’t match the statistics.

          You are right that anonymity is the bane of the recording musician. The answer to that is marketing and networking, not giving away music for free. The reason is basic psychology. If the musician doesn’t place any value on his music, neither will the listener.

          The consumer is not always right. If a customer is putting out his money to buy a product, then this may be true. If the person is stealing the product, he is no longer a customer, he is a thief and his opinion is no longer valid.

          The bottom line is if you don’t like an artist, don’t buy his work. There are countless legal ways to hear a musician’s work without stealing via P2P. Stick to legal means and you won’t have a problem.

          But that isn’t really the case, is it? The reality is that your computer and music player is full of music that you haven’t paid for. If you were being honest, this wouldn’t be the case, but it is, isn’t it? You ask us to trust you, but why should we when it is so obvious that you are lying?

        • http://disqus.com/ Rob8urcakes

          OK you’ve convinced me – and I’m so damned guilt-ridden I’m going to set fire to my computer, my thousands of discs, my pile of HDD’s and my face too.

          Satisfied now?

        • JJBiener

          First of all, I would suggest taking a valium.

          Second, all I want you to do is pay for the things you’ve taken. I don’t even want you to stop downloading. I just want you to do it legally and pay for the things you download. Pretty simple.

          No matter what you may think, stealing does not equate to progress. Also progress doesn’t imply that every use you make of it is appropriate, justified and/or legal. Any technology can be abused, and that is what you are doing.

          It isn’t the technology that’s the problem. It is how you and others choose to use it to steal from artists.

          Any questions?

    • shredder

      hey rico, you still jammin with we are is and mello these days? come to minnesota sometime if you get tired of the tropical gigs. markiss of ipso facto is hangin out here in the boonies puttin some new stuff together.
      ~s

    • Guest

      Who’re you??

    • Guest

      Who’re you??

    • Guest

      Who’re you??

      • Guest

        your mom

        • Jsjs

          Mom stay off this website or i am deleting your facebook again.

      • rick steffen

        rick steffen

    • Jon7272

      who are you never heard of you. now i have. i will definately not be buying .you are a goose coming on here thinking we will feel sorry for you and buy. what did you hope to achieve lmfao

    • consumer

      never heard of it… not buying

  • Marty M

    A good friend of mine was a DA for years and he once told me ” the way you kill a snake is to put a pitchfork in it and don’t take it out till it stops squirming”

    I think Moses struck a nerve with you, and even someone as misguided
    As yourself knows that the pitchfork is coming. Ever think about
    going to massage school? Clearly you are not a musician and will need a plan
    B sooner than later
    Disgusted with Snakes like you,
    Austin, TX

    • Kj

      What are you talking about? Learn to spell.

      • Not

        J_e_w_s did 911

  • DTR

    Sigh…..Is just now realizing that the real terriosts are the governments of the U.S….Democracy just isn’t working anymore, the people vote sure….But when the leaders they put into office start, they get influenced by corporate horrors. Just how are we supposed to be free…..not free to kill or anything like that, but you know…Free. Wire Taps, World Bulling from the US….My god citizens of the US….fix it or ….Did you watch that video on youtube where the big kid takes a few hits from the little kid and snaps….Well, the little kid will be you guys. You got to get more proactive…we respect your rights so respect the rest of the worlds by being proactive on who you vote in…..That being said, the Canadian Gov’t needs a kick in the arse too. But i’m going to do what i can next time voting comes along, if it will make a difference. I hate being the US’s Neighbor now.

  • S2S?

    Maybe we should change P2P to S2S (sharer to sharer) and wipe our butts with the next white paper. I just hope it’s as soft and absorbent as Avalon’s bullshit.

    • JJBiener

      How about T2T, Thief to Thief. You can’t share something that isn’t yours to share. Copying something that doesn’t belong to you is theft.

      Oh, while you’re wiping, why don’t you just grab the Constitution while you’re at it. Obviously it doesn’t mean anything to you either.

      • Anonymous

        Copying copyrighted media is called infringement. To call this theft is abuse and misuse of the English language when as the dictionary says…

        criminal law the dishonest taking of property belonging to another person with the intention of depriving the owner permanently of its possession

        Please stop lying to us. Yes we infringe. No we do not steal.

        You also seem to ignore that people can LEGALLY infringe copyright in many ways when copyright law gives you FAIR and not ABSOLUTE rights. They balance these rights against citizen’s rights.

        For example in most European Union countries it is legal for people to obtain unauthoried access to foreign satellite services. This is allowed when normally out of zone viewers cannot subscribe denying them choice and maybe even denying them access to their own home service.

        In many countres it is legal to download but not to supply. In Canada they pay a blank media tax so why should they pay you a second time?

        I could go on like this but you get my point. When copyright is infringed you lose a POSSIBLE sale but maybe they would not have purchased it anyway. Then if they enjoy it maybe they will purchase and tell their friends who buy as well. This makes it questionable if infringement leads to sales loss or gain.

        An example is the movie Inception which was a very popular P2P download for over 6 weeks. So what loss did file sharing cause them in these millions and millions of downloads? Seeing that this movie was the first movie ever to exceed $1 billion in sales then it is fair to say this answer is none and such Internet exposure helped to boost their sales.

        • JJBiener

          Violated0 – “Copying copyrighted media is called infringement. To call this theft is abuse and misuse of the English language when as the dictionary says…”

          Nice selective editing. You left out the second part of the definition. Namely:

          “an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property” – Merriam Webster

          What about these sources:

          “A criminal act in which property belonging to another is taken without that person’s consent.” – thefreedictionary.com”

          “theft n. the generic term for all crimes in which a person intentionally and fraudulently takes personal property of another without permission or consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker’s use” – West’s Encyclopedia of American Law

          “the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another” – Dictionary.com

          Point. Set. Match.

          “‘You also seem to ignore that people can LEGALLY infringe copyright”

          This is a contradiction in terms. If you are talking about fair use, yes, you are able to make copies of copyrighted items which own for personal use. Giving these copies away or selling them is not fair use.

          “In Canada they pay a blank media tax so why should they pay you a second time?”

          The blank media tax is not a replacement for royalties. It is a way to partially compensate those people who are victims of your stealing.

          “When copyright is infringed you lose a POSSIBLE sale but maybe they would not have purchased it anyway.”

          You can’t possibly tell me that of the millions and millions of illegal downloads that go on every year, none of the offenders would have purchased the item if it had not been available for free. Even if every download would not have been a sale, we are still talking about millions of lost sales. Only those who are willfully blind to it can say that illegal download isn’t drastically harming sales of copyrighted material.

        • Anonymous

          Since you have been saying elsewhere you would like to see infringers go to jail for being a thieves then I quote to you the very law definition of Theft that proves you wrong.

          If you want to go beyond the law then you have morality and that is really between you and God. Since everyone has a different moral view then even you can be a thief to some. For example copyright protection was originally 14 years in the UK or 30 years USA. We the citizens gave you the artists the rights to profit from your creation in exchange your work eventually becoming public domain and our property. You have abused this agreement by using your profits to bribe your way in law changes to extend copyright several times up to the current level of all of life plus 70 years. Now you even try to extend that to 130 years in the goal of endless copyright and to never make your creations public domain. We have paid for your creations by allowing you to market and profit in our society but now you STEAL from us and violate this agreement. If you do not respect this agreement then why should we?

          The funny thing is you steal from yourself as well when such a public domain resource would be a huge resource of ideas to fuel new creations.

          Your alternate definitions of Theft are invalid in many ways like “A criminal act” when as proven Infringement is not an act of Theft under criminal law and even the Copyright Infringement is usually a civil act and not a criminal act.

          Then “takes personal property” is invalid when “duplicates intellectual property” is the valid term. Your definition is proved invalid when once a duplication has been made the original still remains meaning no loss.

          I am like the person who takes a photograph of the Mona Lisa the in Musée du Louvre in Paris and when walking out of the museum you are the person who calls out “Stop thief! He has stolen the Mona Lisa!”. Obviously not true when the original still hangs on the wall and my photographic copy causes the original no loss of value or income. In fact sharing this photo with my friends can have more people visit the Louvre when they are not wanting the media no matter how good the photo is when they want to pay for the experience. The same applies to the movie Inception and more.

          Sorry but while your postings here are both welcomed and enjoyable it is sad to say your reply about the blank media tax in Canada just goes to highlight what a greedy bitch you are. Compensation is exactly that which means you have been compensated. Quite fairly as well when you have no expenses in doing so which means free money.

          As to “fair use” then neither I nor you are a judge to decide if copying is fair use or not. From what legal conflict we have seen so far then sometimes it is legal and sometimes it is not. Here in the UK there is a law that says a person can keep a copy of copyrighted media for 2 weeks before needing to delete it. That law rapidly became unenforceable when all citizens ignore the 2 weeks bit like in their home TV recordings.

          Your problem as always is in thinking copyright enforcement is absolute but it is not. All you have is a “fair” opportunity to profit which is balanced against citizens rights. This means one movie or song download DOES NOT equal one lost sale which also means people are not thieves by any definition. Yes people can lawfully infringe copyright in many ways.

          If you want the religious view when did not Jesus duplicate the loaves and fishes to feed the hungry crowd? He satisfied their physical hunger just as we file sharers satisfy their hunger for entertainment. I cant recall any Bible mention that the nearby town traders were up in arms over lost trade.

          “Sharing is caring” endorsed by God.

        • JJBiener

          Violated0 – Copyright infringement is a crime. I refer you to section 506 of the copyright law. The title of this section is Criminal Infringement. Yes, it does distinguish between an occasional downloader and a major infringer, but it is a crime.

          I am familiar with American and British history, and in neither society did the ones who codified our laws and documented our rights believe those rights were granted by society. I don’t want to get into a long historical discussion, but in both societies, rights transcend the laws of man. In modern day, those rights are now protected around the world by international treaty. The copyright is considered a fundamental human right.

          You contention that citizens have somehow granted these rights and they are some form of between society and creators is simply wrong legally, historically, culturally and in every other way imaginable. It is a figment of your imagination.

          The definitions of theft that I posted are from well respected sources including West’s Encyclopedia of American Law. Perhaps you would like to argue with them what the definition of theft is.

          You analogy about the Mona Lisa is false. There is a difference between a photograph of a painting and a painting itself. You cannot pass one off as the other. In the case of the painting, the value is imbued in the object itself, not in the image on the canvas. The value is based on the historical and cultural significance of the painting and its authenticity.

          This is not true in the case of music. A digital copy of a music file is identical to the original. The value comes from the contents of the file, not from the physical file itself. That mean that the original file and the copy both have the same value. Ownership is contained in the right to make copies of that content. In other words, a copyright owner doesn’t just own the original, he owns all copies of the original content. By copying the file you are taking something of value that does not belong to you. That copy belongs to the copyright owner. That’s why it is called a copy right.

          Now what part of this don’t you understand?

        • Anonymous

          As to “free stuff”, which deserved a separate post, then I won’t lie to you when there are people out there who only want as much free stuff as they can get.

          These people though are a market write-off to you when since they believe in “free stuff” and don’t believe in paying for any media like ever then even if you did manage to close off Internet based file sharing for good then they would only find another source of their “free stuff” including leeching off friends.

          OK maybe I was too harsh in calling them a market write off when there is indeed a market for them. Free after all helps to explain the resounding success of the television broadcast services of FreeView and FreeSat here in the UK. Hundreds of stations for free when they are instead funded from advertising.

          This goes to show that the only person at fault here is you by trying to bully a market into your own personal control which is impossible. Instead we have a market and they only need figure out how everyone can profit.

        • JJBiener

          Violated0 – “Copying copyrighted media is called infringement. To call this theft is abuse and misuse of the English language when as the dictionary says…”

          Nice selective editing. You left out the second part of the definition. Namely:

          “an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property” – Merriam Webster

          What about these sources:

          “A criminal act in which property belonging to another is taken without that person’s consent.” – thefreedictionary.com”

          “theft n. the generic term for all crimes in which a person intentionally and fraudulently takes personal property of another without permission or consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker’s use” – West’s Encyclopedia of American Law

          “the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another” – Dictionary.com

          Point. Set. Match.

          “‘You also seem to ignore that people can LEGALLY infringe copyright”

          This is a contradiction in terms. If you are talking about fair use, yes, you are able to make copies of copyrighted items which own for personal use. Giving these copies away or selling them is not fair use.

          “In Canada they pay a blank media tax so why should they pay you a second time?”

          The blank media tax is not a replacement for royalties. It is a way to partially compensate those people who are victims of your stealing.

          “When copyright is infringed you lose a POSSIBLE sale but maybe they would not have purchased it anyway.”

          You can’t possibly tell me that of the millions and millions of illegal downloads that go on every year, none of the offenders would have purchased the item if it had not been available for free. Even if every download would not have been a sale, we are still talking about millions of lost sales. Only those who are willfully blind to it can say that illegal download isn’t drastically harming sales of copyrighted material.

  • Klown

    the guy seems like a douche nozzle

  • Daemon_ZOGG

    “New Law Will Shut Down TorrentFreak, Music Industry Expert Says”

    Fuck the Obama administration. They’ve always done more harm than good. Good thing the Vice and the Pres have a four year shelf-life… Didn’t vote for them before, wouldn’t vote for them in the future. And kill those Rat Bastard lobbyists.

  • Guest

    This Avalon guy is just another one of these people who will say anything for attention. I recommend we ignore him and continue on our way.

  • Neotoasty

    Avalon has a severe case of unwarranted self-importance that cannot be described by words alone. Guy is thinking he’s the jesus christ of copyright.

    • JJBiener

      This is from someone with delusions of adequacy.

    • Monseigneur Camillo

      Hm… that is a paradox, Jesus was pro sharing, actually when you read the bible correctly, he was a communist. He even shared his body and blood. (bread and wine)

      • JJBiener

        He also said, render unto Caesar what is Casear’s…

    • Monseigneur Camillo

      Hm… that is a paradox, Jesus was pro sharing, actually when you read the bible correctly, he was a communist. He even shared his body and blood. (bread and wine)

    • Monseigneur Camillo

      Hm… that is a paradox, Jesus was pro sharing, actually when you read the bible correctly, he was a communist. He even shared his body and blood. (bread and wine)

  • anon

    Host your site in Canada or Netherland, problem solved.

  • jack

    http://ubuntustudio.org/

    making music does not require middlemen,,,, install ubuntu, grab a few bits of hardware, mix and master away, create torrent, create website, add donation button. Musicians will make way more cash then sucking the teet that is the mafia.

    And yes, its that simple.

    J.

  • http://www.wilsonrodriguez.com Wilson Rodriguez

    Fuck those Thieves.Keep up da pressure.WR

    • jack.ss

      Wilson Rodriguez?

      Q:And Who Is Wilson Rodriguez?

      A.Another artist that the p2p community never heard about :D

      There are no torrents with your music.
      We don’t share your music
      Go fuck yourself.

  • anonymous

    The artists are the problem. No artists means nothing for the greedy corporations to sell, and nothing for pirates to steal, bringing this whole bullshit internet conflict to an end.
    Vote for Palin and lock the bastards up for obscenity.

  • Pen

    bs. they can’t close a blog for expressing views

  • http://twitter.com/jstrhd Jester

    .EU here we come

  • remove disqus

    Please remove disqus.

    I would trust torrentfreak not to convert comments to IP addresses at the whim of the copyright mafia, disqus will (and has) bend (bent) over backwards to provide their information to third parties to aid in prosecution.

    “Lastly, we may disclosure your Personal Information if required to do so by process of law, or if necessary in order to investigate fraud, a violation of the Site Terms of Use or in connection with any harm being caused to a third party or their rights.”

    • http://disqus.com/ Rob8urcakes

      What do you expect them to say?
      “We will protect the privacy of our users to the extent of refusing all Court Orders to disclose any information held by us.”

      Yeah right – then see how fast the info-fascists close them down. They’ve GOT to say they’ll disclose personal info etc. in order to operate in this stupid and paranoid World of censorship, legal attacks and general everyday fascism of copywrong enforcements.

      The law needs changed. Not a removal of disqus my friend.
      But this is a wholly off-topic, so can we now focus on the news article please.

  • Anonymous

    If you download my music without paying for it,maybe I should be able to come to your house and steal your sh*t. I want your ass in jail. If you don’t think my music is worthy of purchase,then don’t frickin’ buy it, but to steal it is the same as saying you don’t think a pack of twinkies is worth $1.00 , but you’ll eat them if you can steal them. I just wish all the musicians could visit the illegal downloaders and take their paychecks. Now THAT would be fair.

    • jack.ss

      From NURREDIN’s Myspace bio:
      “If you take the artistry of Stevie Wonder, the avant-garde cutting edge musicianship of Miles Davis, the suave sophistication of Sade, and the confident cockiness of Muhammad Ali,throw them into a blender, and you’ll come up with the tasty entree that is NURREDIN.”

      Such a great artist must have a great crowd of fans following him on Twitter I guess.. Not, it looks like you have 16 followers.. Some of them must be family and friends (12?), now Twitter your 4 fans that you want to go home to them and steal their sh*t :D

      As for downloading your music, don’t talk to us because nobody share your music. There is nothing in the torrent world with your stuff. How does it feel to be an artist that people dont even download for free?

      • Anonymous

        Firstly mister (or ms)anonymous b*tch, the majority of my business is OUTSIDE the United States. We haven’t even started promoting the music stateside yet. Your attacks on me are irrelevant to the issue as it is with most CRIMINALS. If you noticed on my Twitter account,I haven’t made ONE twitter entry yet. As is typical with most illiterates instead of adding to an intelligent discourse on the facts,you result to attacks. Maybe that’s why Americans are 32nd in scholastic aptitude. Or maybe your mother was just too stupid to teach her children how to discuss matters intelligently.What you need is an education so you can at least blog coherently.Maybe if you weren’t such a punk*ss you could come to Vegas and we can have a face to face discussion. B*tch. I’m not that hard to find.

        • music fan

          Sucks being you …ehh? If you are poular wherever the hell youre from it would show up! So take your punk*ss shit and go home looser.
          You cant take the truth then dont open yer punk mouth!
          As typical with most illiterates…….its nice that you use spell and grammer check, yo mama would be proud!

        • Anonymous

          Spell check my d*ck punk as* B*tch! I bet you open your mouth every time a d*ck goes in! Come to Vegas and we can talk face to face,! Like I said, I ain’t that hard to find.We’ll see who the punk is when the Glock comes out. You Bit Torrent B*tches make me laugh!

        • Anonymous

          Spell check my d*ck punk as* B*tch! I bet you open your mouth every time a d*ck goes in! Come to Vegas and we can talk face to face,! Like I said, I ain’t that hard to find.We’ll see who the punk is when the Glock comes out. You Bit Torrent B*tches make me laugh!

        • Anonymous

          Internet tough guy… haha

        • jack.ss

          NURREDIN quote of the day:
          “We’ll see who the punk is when the Glock comes out. You Bit Torrent B*tches make me laugh!”

          You take trolling to a new level :D

          Sorry for not being able to visit you, I’m not from the states. Anyway it seems that you despise your fellow Americans, watch out so you not lose your last 4 fans.

          P.S We “Bit Torrent B*tches” don’t share your material, you are a nobody in our eyes – I would not upload or download your material even if I got paid D.S

        • Anonymous

          Spell check my d*ck punk as* B*tch! I bet you open your mouth every time a d*ck goes in! Come to Vegas and we can talk face to face,! Like I said, I ain’t that hard to find.We’ll see who the punk is when the Glock comes out. You Bit Torrent B*tches make me laugh!

    • jack.ss

      From NURREDIN’s Myspace bio:
      “If you take the artistry of Stevie Wonder, the avant-garde cutting edge musicianship of Miles Davis, the suave sophistication of Sade, and the confident cockiness of Muhammad Ali,throw them into a blender, and you’ll come up with the tasty entree that is NURREDIN.”

      Such a great artist must have a great crowd of fans following him on Twitter I guess.. Not, it looks like you have 16 followers.. Some of them must be family and friends (12?), now Twitter your 4 fans that you want to go home to them and steal their sh*t :D

      As for downloading your music, don’t talk to us because nobody share your music. There is nothing in the torrent world with your stuff. How does it feel to be an artist that people dont even download for free?

    • Sd

      No, go away. We are not going to make you popular by sharing your work. We are going to ignore you.

      • Anonymous

        Who gives a sh*t what you thieving freaks think? I don’t want you to share a f*cking thing! Kiss my Algerian AS*!

        • Donotreply

          Copyright infringement is not theft; it is exactly that, an infringement.
          In the case of p2p it would be an infringement on the right to make as many or as few copies of your music (ignoring the fact I’ve never listened to your work so can’t call it music/noise/whatever and as I’m not going to buy it will never make an opinion on the matter) as you wish which is not within a cooee (shout for those not playing in Australia) of theft where people downloading your file would at the same time be deleting your original file.

          As to your rant about stealing stuff; copyright infringement is the equivalent of making a 1:1 duplicate copy of the same items without removing the original or depriving the owner of possession/use of the item which is what theft is usually described as in criminal law (that nice car in the driveway *zap* now I have a copy and you still have your car in the same driveway).

          As to locking people in gaol/jail for copyright infringement, I don’t agree with that as IMHO the damage from someones infringement of your copyright doesn’t weigh up enough to warrant incarceration. Not every downloaded copy of your song is a lost sale for numerous reasons (that for the benefit of everyone else around here is too tired of hearing I won’t repeat here) so on some occasions you will lose nothing from their download and on others where a sale may have occurred you will only lose whatever little profit you were making per copy of an album sold ($15 cost, $20 sale price being $5 profit loss on downloads from people that would have bought it if not available via p2p). $5 loss on a generous 10% of downloads of your file doesn’t really seem that big enough a loss to go out of your way to jail/gaol everyone (I’d much rather the murderer/rapist or even the junky stealing a physical copy of your album from the store incarcerated than someone downloading a few files of the web thanks =) ).

          As to a discussion; coming in here and calling alleged (innocent until proven guilty or does that not apply in Algeria?) copyright infringing web users criminals is (not only inaccurate as copyright is a civil law, not a criminal law but) not an intelligent way to begin a discussion.

          And finally it goes without saying; no I will not kiss your ars* (fwiw I’ve had better offers in the past than some Algerian Keyboard Warrior) but at least from it you got one person from Australia saying thanks for the lols anyway =)

          A lovely sign off from beyond the grave by a true musician =)

          When the Power of Love Overcomes the Love of Power the World Will Know Peace. – Jimi Hendrix

        • Anonymous

          I don’t give a flying sh*t whether you buy my music or not b*tch! I happen to live in America,and don’t need your trailer trash as* help! Where did you get your J.D.from? I already live in a two million dollar house and drive a Bentley.What about you? I make more in a week in Macau than you do all year!

        • Anonymous

          Tough man censoring his own words. Can’t have a conversation without swearing can you? I hope you do understand that bad language online does not impress anyone. They are actually more likely to laugh at you for getting mad…

        • jack.ss

          Hey, don’t tell him – you spoil our fun :D

        • Donotreply

          See jack.ss post:

          ‘Hey, don’t tell him – you spoil our fun :D ‘

          Anyway I’ll waste a few minutes to give them a response.

          “I don’t give a flying sh*t whether you buy my music or not b*tch! I happen to live in America,and don’t need your trailer trash as* help! ”

          Of course it’s obvious my post was never read since I did mention I am from Australia. Meaning no offense to those who live in them but we don’t have trailer communities like that here in Australia (your trailer trash remark is a little redundant dont you think).

          Given how stuffed other things are in America (a plug to Zeitgeist though the utopian stuff is a bit extreme for my liking atm); I think I will stay here in Australia.

          “I already live in a two million dollar house and drive a Bentley.What about you? I make more in a week in Macau than you do all year! ”

          For trolling places like TF; I can see you certainly are living the high life /sarcasm

          Sure I’m not living in a million AUD$ (since it’s worth more than the USD$ at time of post =) ) mansion driving a fuel guzzler (not that either appeals to me as where I live is comfortable for my needs and all cars have to stick to the same speed limits) but I do have affordable health care, a lower crime rate, no right to bear arms (I’m not needing to watch my back expecting some thug to pop a bullet in my back), lower crime and incarceration levels (land of the free?), can’t have my legal rights dropped faster than I could say ‘terrorist’ and other such more important things than a mansion full of ill gotten goods (given the choice of an American mansion and Australian Citizenship I think I will keep the latter TYVM).

          Anyway, to balance this post out so I stop feeding the troll (if they were living the high life why would they waste their time on days of our lives stuff here in TF), here’s a plug for another great musician (and on theme re bitch = female dog).

          Black Dog by Led Zeppelin

          (Sure it’s on youtube somewhere but my linking to it would apparently be breaking copyright law in future [the Trans Pacific Partnership] so I’ll keep the habit of not linking stuff and leave it up to the intelligent people of TF etc to help themselves to it [if you like it - buy it; but please do via 2nd hand so you "don't feed the MAFIAA" ]).

          Thanks for playing :)

        • Donotreply

          Oh and I don’t blame the American people for the way things are atm; just as I hope you Americans don’t blame the Australian people when the Aus Gov decides to continue our lap dog status and tow the line with whatever changes to Copyright Law occur from the US in future :X

        • Anonymous

          I don’t give a flying sh*t whether you buy my music or not b*tch! I happen to live in America,and don’t need your trailer trash as* help! Where did you get your J.D.from? I already live in a two million dollar house and drive a Bentley.What about you? I make more in a week in Macau than you do all year!

        • Anonymous

          I don’t give a flying sh*t whether you buy my music or not b*tch! I happen to live in America,and don’t need your trailer trash as* help! Where did you get your J.D.from? I already live in a two million dollar house and drive a Bentley.What about you? I make more in a week in Macau than you do all year!

    • http://disqus.com/ Rob8urcakes

      You don’t have to steal my shit Nurrie-Babes – I’ll happily sit on your face and give it to you at no charge (and do it via cam4 too my darling).

      “Now THAT would be fair.”

      • Anonymous

        You’ll never be the man your mother was B*TCH!

        • Anonymous

          U MAD BRA? U MAD?

        • http://disqus.com/ Rob8urcakes

          Erm OK, that’s a statement of truth I can agree with and also can confirm as accurate.

          Thank you for destroying me soooooooo totally. I now promise never to say anything intelligent to you ever again my shit-faced darling = teehee xxx

  • Benshen

    The key problem made by Mr Avalon here is not his deluded rantings, but the fact that he took a shot at TorrentFreak, Techdirt and Wired.

    How ridiculous is that?

    Three NEWS sites. Not a single illegal download, upload, stream, music or movie link, torrent or anything similar in sight so what does he do? Mention them in the same infringing breath as Limewire.

    Honestly, some people are just epic trolls

  • http://twitter.com/mshenrick Mark Henrick

    wait, so streaming CC music is illegal?!

    • JJBiener

      It is if you haven’t licensed the music.

  • Pingback: New Law Will Shut Down TorrentFreak, Music Industry Expert Says | Torrent BT

  • Anonymous

    How many more Americans will fall to the Fascist regime of Obama. he ran on a platform of “change”
    Those of you that put this criminal in office, deserve everything you wished for. The rest of us gun carrying, bible totin patriots have already been demonized as “subversives” by the regime, now they are going after the geeks. I happen to be gun totin geek, so I am marked for elimination twice.

    • music fan

      You go brother…well said!! The geeks will win the war!

      • Anonymous

        Most would have thought the Republicans were wildand crazy law and order
        types, with crazed secret police , spys on every block, and the end of
        freedoms.

        No one thought that Obama . the man of the people, the man of change, free
        love. drugs and free money to all would be jamming file sharers with
        criminalization.
        Obamas got a gestapo like operation that shoots first and then asks
        questions.
        There gestapo freaks are trying to stop us from moving electrons, and /or
        photons between ourselves and others.

        Why hasnt there been riots in the streets here like is happing in the arab
        lands. They are demanding freedoms, and OBAMA is taking ours away.
        This fascist government has abused its limits of power, and may be in fact
        illegal if Obama does not meet the birth requirement—And I believe he is
        is not an American citizen.

        America should be in the streets demanding this idiot Obama prove he is who
        he says he is. This place should be looking like Libya if he is an illegal
        imposter, and if found to be a criminal, all the bills he has signed are
        meaningless…..including the DMCA

  • Unexpectediteminbaggingarea

    oh ffs stop whining all of you, its just like drug laws….they pass them, we ignore them. Unjust and unworkable laws are just that. Same will happen for interwebs, we’ll just shift to summat else to get free stuff, law or no law. Keep calm and carry on downloading.

    • Anonymous

      Well i just do not approve of them using my tax money to enforce laws no one wants. The government is supposed to be a representation of us. Not a group of people that tries to rule us by force.

      • JJBiener

        Anon – “Well i just do not approve of them using my tax money to enforce laws no one wants.”

        Those who own copyrights do want the laws enforced.

        “The government is supposed to be a representation of us.”

        What a quaint, anachronistic idea.

        “Not a group of people that tries to rule us by force.”

        The government is a group of people that rule us by force. Did you have some illusion about this?

  • Guest

    I’m not an artist, but it seems to me that many who are in the music industry are missing a big point. Just because a person downloads an album/song, doesn’t mean that person will legally purchase the same album/song if the methods of streaming and p2p can if effectively shut down. Additionally, what are the odds that people will hear about your band if they have to pay $12-15 for an obscure album? I honestly discovered quite a lot of music in my time from streaming and p2p, which if they haven’t existed would of have ever happened. And because of this discovery, I actually went to shows and bought albums from the various bands. So when arguing over the merits of piracy and their effects, you have to look both ways. Inherently music is secondary to the vast majority of people when compared to things like food, a place to live, electricity, etc. I highly doubt that everyone would suddenly switch to buying music if p2p is to be completely shut down. Unfortunately, the p2p train has left the station, and whether you like it or not, it has changed the way people are exposed to music.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Bloodyscott/100000019345239 Michael Bloodyscott

      P2P can be used legally or illegally but its far easier and less costly for RIAA to simply shut it down fully, along with websites that talk about it or offer/tell of new ways to transfer files between people. The copyright system is messed up and many older songs are impossible to tell if still under copyright or if it valid without going to court. Robert Johnson died in 1938 but his songs recorded in 1937-38 are under copyright till 2047 which is longer than newer recording made in the 1960′s.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Bloodyscott/100000019345239 Michael Bloodyscott

      P2P can be used legally or illegally but its far easier and less costly for RIAA to simply shut it down fully, along with websites that talk about it or offer/tell of new ways to transfer files between people. The copyright system is messed up and many older songs are impossible to tell if still under copyright or if it valid without going to court. Robert Johnson died in 1938 but his songs recorded in 1937-38 are under copyright till 2047 which is longer than newer recording made in the 1960′s.

    • JJBiener

      Millions of tracks are stolen every year over P2P. Do you really believe that NONE of those tracks would have been paid for if they weren’t readily available for free?

      As for discovering music, there are hundreds of sites where you can discover new music legally. The illegal P2P traffic does nothing that can’t be done legally.

      The truth is that there is an unfortunately large portion of the population who will simply steal if they believe the chances of getting caught and punished are small. In order to justify their behavior to themselves, they produce ridiculous rationalizations to explain away what they do.

      You are the one who is missing the point. You are a thief. A common criminal. Go look in the mirror and digest that for a while. Are you proud of yourself?

      • Anonymous

        Artists don’t make money off tracks sold, only big media does. Who use it to sue us, demonize us, lobby laws against us (us=your potential fan base). Artists earn off merchandise and performances. Getting popular over p2p means you build a fan base. Look at the artists that embrace the swarm, they get carried on our hands. It is like air time on the radio, only free. We, the people, control the money. You forget people can record songs off the radio for a long time now and they have been screaming about that it’s killing the music industry for a long time. But have radio recordings killed it? No. If someone makes music that moves me / makes me move i will make sure they make more. You don’t get payed for your track, you get payed to make more. But you first have to make something good enough. And that is something most of you haters fail to do. You can’t be a second rate artist anymore and expect money.

        • JJBiener

          Anon – So many fallacies, so little time. The only thing in your entire post that is accurate is that the artist has to produce first-rate material. Everything else is pure nonsense.

        • JJBiener

          Anon – So many fallacies, so little time. The only thing in your entire post that is accurate is that the artist has to produce first-rate material. Everything else is pure nonsense.

        • JJBiener

          Anon – So many fallacies, so little time. The only thing in your entire post that is accurate is that the artist has to produce first-rate material. Everything else is pure nonsense.

        • JJBiener

          Anon – So many fallacies, so little time. The only thing in your entire post that is accurate is that the artist has to produce first-rate material. Everything else is pure nonsense.

        • JJBiener

          Anon – So many fallacies, so little time. The only thing in your entire post that is accurate is that the artist has to produce first-rate material. Everything else is pure nonsense.

        • JJBiener

          Anon – So many fallacies, so little time. The only thing in your entire post that is accurate is that the artist has to produce first-rate material. Everything else is pure nonsense.

  • Guest

    I’m not an artist, but it seems to me that many who are in the music industry are missing a big point. Just because a person downloads an album/song, doesn’t mean that person will legally purchase the same album/song if the methods of streaming and p2p can if effectively shut down. Additionally, what are the odds that people will hear about your band if they have to pay $12-15 for an obscure album? I honestly discovered quite a lot of music in my time from streaming and p2p, which if they haven’t existed would of have ever happened. And because of this discovery, I actually went to shows and bought albums from the various bands. So when arguing over the merits of piracy and their effects, you have to look both ways. Inherently music is secondary to the vast majority of people when compared to things like food, a place to live, electricity, etc. I highly doubt that everyone would suddenly switch to buying music if p2p is to be completely shut down. Unfortunately, the p2p train has left the station, and whether you like it or not, it has changed the way people are exposed to music.

  • Guest

    I’m not an artist, but it seems to me that many who are in the music industry are missing a big point. Just because a person downloads an album/song, doesn’t mean that person will legally purchase the same album/song if the methods of streaming and p2p can if effectively shut down. Additionally, what are the odds that people will hear about your band if they have to pay $12-15 for an obscure album? I honestly discovered quite a lot of music in my time from streaming and p2p, which if they haven’t existed would of have ever happened. And because of this discovery, I actually went to shows and bought albums from the various bands. So when arguing over the merits of piracy and their effects, you have to look both ways. Inherently music is secondary to the vast majority of people when compared to things like food, a place to live, electricity, etc. I highly doubt that everyone would suddenly switch to buying music if p2p is to be completely shut down. Unfortunately, the p2p train has left the station, and whether you like it or not, it has changed the way people are exposed to music.

  • Guest

    I’m not an artist, but it seems to me that many who are in the music industry are missing a big point. Just because a person downloads an album/song, doesn’t mean that person will legally purchase the same album/song if the methods of streaming and p2p can if effectively shut down. Additionally, what are the odds that people will hear about your band if they have to pay $12-15 for an obscure album? I honestly discovered quite a lot of music in my time from streaming and p2p, which if they haven’t existed would of have ever happened. And because of this discovery, I actually went to shows and bought albums from the various bands. So when arguing over the merits of piracy and their effects, you have to look both ways. Inherently music is secondary to the vast majority of people when compared to things like food, a place to live, electricity, etc. I highly doubt that everyone would suddenly switch to buying music if p2p is to be completely shut down. Unfortunately, the p2p train has left the station, and whether you like it or not, it has changed the way people are exposed to music.

  • Guest

    I’m not an artist, but it seems to me that many who are in the music industry are missing a big point. Just because a person downloads an album/song, doesn’t mean that person will legally purchase the same album/song if the methods of streaming and p2p can if effectively shut down. Additionally, what are the odds that people will hear about your band if they have to pay $12-15 for an obscure album? I honestly discovered quite a lot of music in my time from streaming and p2p, which if they haven’t existed would of have ever happened. And because of this discovery, I actually went to shows and bought albums from the various bands. So when arguing over the merits of piracy and their effects, you have to look both ways. Inherently music is secondary to the vast majority of people when compared to things like food, a place to live, electricity, etc. I highly doubt that everyone would suddenly switch to buying music if p2p is to be completely shut down. Unfortunately, the p2p train has left the station, and whether you like it or not, it has changed the way people are exposed to music.

  • Guest

    I’m not an artist, but it seems to me that many who are in the music industry are missing a big point. Just because a person downloads an album/song, doesn’t mean that person will legally purchase the same album/song if the methods of streaming and p2p can if effectively shut down. Additionally, what are the odds that people will hear about your band if they have to pay $12-15 for an obscure album? I honestly discovered quite a lot of music in my time from streaming and p2p, which if they haven’t existed would of have ever happened. And because of this discovery, I actually went to shows and bought albums from the various bands. So when arguing over the merits of piracy and their effects, you have to look both ways. Inherently music is secondary to the vast majority of people when compared to things like food, a place to live, electricity, etc. I highly doubt that everyone would suddenly switch to buying music if p2p is to be completely shut down. Unfortunately, the p2p train has left the station, and whether you like it or not, it has changed the way people are exposed to music.

  • Guest

    I’m not an artist, but it seems to me that many who are in the music industry are missing a big point. Just because a person downloads an album/song, doesn’t mean that person will legally purchase the same album/song if the methods of streaming and p2p can if effectively shut down. Additionally, what are the odds that people will hear about your band if they have to pay $12-15 for an obscure album? I honestly discovered quite a lot of music in my time from streaming and p2p, which if they haven’t existed would of have ever happened. And because of this discovery, I actually went to shows and bought albums from the various bands. So when arguing over the merits of piracy and their effects, you have to look both ways. Inherently music is secondary to the vast majority of people when compared to things like food, a place to live, electricity, etc. I highly doubt that everyone would suddenly switch to buying music if p2p is to be completely shut down. Unfortunately, the p2p train has left the station, and whether you like it or not, it has changed the way people are exposed to music.

  • Guest

    I’m not an artist, but it seems to me that many who are in the music industry are missing a big point. Just because a person downloads an album/song, doesn’t mean that person will legally purchase the same album/song if the methods of streaming and p2p can if effectively shut down. Additionally, what are the odds that people will hear about your band if they have to pay $12-15 for an obscure album? I honestly discovered quite a lot of music in my time from streaming and p2p, which if they haven’t existed would of have ever happened. And because of this discovery, I actually went to shows and bought albums from the various bands. So when arguing over the merits of piracy and their effects, you have to look both ways. Inherently music is secondary to the vast majority of people when compared to things like food, a place to live, electricity, etc. I highly doubt that everyone would suddenly switch to buying music if p2p is to be completely shut down. Unfortunately, the p2p train has left the station, and whether you like it or not, it has changed the way people are exposed to music.

  • Guest

    I’m not an artist, but it seems to me that many who are in the music industry are missing a big point. Just because a person downloads an album/song, doesn’t mean that person will legally purchase the same album/song if the methods of streaming and p2p can if effectively shut down. Additionally, what are the odds that people will hear about your band if they have to pay $12-15 for an obscure album? I honestly discovered quite a lot of music in my time from streaming and p2p, which if they haven’t existed would of have ever happened. And because of this discovery, I actually went to shows and bought albums from the various bands. So when arguing over the merits of piracy and their effects, you have to look both ways. Inherently music is secondary to the vast majority of people when compared to things like food, a place to live, electricity, etc. I highly doubt that everyone would suddenly switch to buying music if p2p is to be completely shut down. Unfortunately, the p2p train has left the station, and whether you like it or not, it has changed the way people are exposed to music.

  • Guest

    I’m not an artist, but it seems to me that many who are in the music industry are missing a big point. Just because a person downloads an album/song, doesn’t mean that person will legally purchase the same album/song if the methods of streaming and p2p can if effectively shut down. Additionally, what are the odds that people will hear about your band if they have to pay $12-15 for an obscure album? I honestly discovered quite a lot of music in my time from streaming and p2p, which if they haven’t existed would of have ever happened. And because of this discovery, I actually went to shows and bought albums from the various bands. So when arguing over the merits of piracy and their effects, you have to look both ways. Inherently music is secondary to the vast majority of people when compared to things like food, a place to live, electricity, etc. I highly doubt that everyone would suddenly switch to buying music if p2p is to be completely shut down. Unfortunately, the p2p train has left the station, and whether you like it or not, it has changed the way people are exposed to music.

  • fck them

    just when TF got thier new ipv6 … rats! .. 2607:f0d0:3002:23::2

  • http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/JonHubertBristol Jon Hubert Bristol

    Free Speech? Or must we go as far as Wikileaks just to talk about some thing openly. The more they push us, the more we push back. Bring on the censorship because it’ll only inspire innovation, whether we hide in the backalleys of the internet, use foreign servers, or cahnge which ports we use. These is no stopping the P2P COMMUNITY! As for streaming, who cares?

  • Aredt123

    Quit whining. GTFO of america. host somewhere else.

    • http://disqus.com/ Rob8urcakes

      I’d happily GTFO of the USA if you US asswipes cease stomping your fascist jackboots on the faces and future of our kids.

      Rattle our cage, and we’ll bite and growl – your now top on today’s menu.

    • http://disqus.com/ Rob8urcakes

      I’d happily GTFO of the USA if you US asswipes cease stomping your fascist jackboots on the faces and future of our kids.

      Rattle our cage, and we’ll bite and growl – your now top on today’s menu.

  • meh

    you just gonna fail like this guy from here >>> ACS:Law lmao grow up america this wont happen and you know it xD

  • aa

    We need to stop going out of our way to support the RIAA artists. When you sign a record deal it’s obvious now that you’re helping to fund lawsuits and anti-internet lobbyists. If you’re too stupid to get a cut of your own recording sales, that’s your problem.

  • laughingbitches.jpg

    If you look up Moses Avalon, you’ll notice that in every photo or video he’s always wearing sunglasses.

    He thinks he’s Duke Nukem.

  • hotdog

    Tthis is exactly what the globalist-elite- new-world-order wants people to think and feel to hate each other in every countries, to hate the people even though we are all the same in different ways!
    They still pose in making a one world government and it’s been going on way before the internet and now this is just the beginning of what this “one world government is doing!”
    My friends wake up stop blaming other countries and those who live in it we have to blame the puppets like Barrack Obama(Barry Soetoro) from their puppet-masters the government as we know it, is not the government is the global elitist.The media as we know it is all filled with cover ups owned by the globalist like Sumner redstone mpaa owner of cbs paramount mtv fox also mpaa run by australian born rupert murdoch owner of fox wall street fox news etc.
    Abc is own by Disney and I’m sure if Walt Disney was alive today he’d probably be angered by this and the control of power through the MPAA/RIAA!!
    Which in return is run by the “DRACONIAN” government and what should be shown and on TV or not.
    I want people to start noticing the signs the signs stop blaming each other start focusing on the draconian laws being possessed on people and we are not puppets.We are living breathing honest people that do and would share
    spend, money, buy products if things weren’t so damn expensive like gas and food and electricity etc etc etc.
    Need I honestly continue? need I honestly have to convince you all that it’s not the”American people to blame nor the Europeans nor the Asians nor Muslims or Israelis Germans but all on the government we need more honest leaders in government like Ron Paul Ron Wyden(WHO CRUSHED COICA) etc etc etc.
    i also am sorry if i haven’t mentioned leaders in other countries due to the fact I live in the usa.
    I honestly hope and wish that this Moses Avalon realizes taking down sites and taking down innovation to suit your puppet-masters is only hurting you and the people that supported you will no longer support you like kiss(Gene Simmons metallica and so many other puppets.
    We the people didn’t destroy the industry it’s the industry destroying itself.
    As for indie artist you can’t let the industry get in your way you can’t stop telling the big labels to shove it were the sun don’t shine keep doing what you are doing keep believing in yourselves.
    truthers keep fighting against the government do what we have done in miami florida usa and vote out government like we did to the mayor etc next and hopefully the antichrist senator we have.hopefully the workld will start doing what egypt has done and said enough is enough.
    my blessings to the people of the world.
    As for the government v is for victory see you in hell:D.

    P.S.LAST TIME I CHECKED LAWS HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE HOUSE AND ASWELL AS THE SENATE BEFORE SOMETHING BECOMES A LAW.THEN SIGNS BY EL PRESIDENTE!!!

  • hotdog

    Tthis is exactly what the globalist-elite- new-world-order wants people to think and feel to hate each other in every countries, to hate the people even though we are all the same in different ways!
    They still pose in making a one world government and it’s been going on way before the internet and now this is just the beginning of what this “one world government is doing!”
    My friends wake up stop blaming other countries and those who live in it we have to blame the puppets like Barrack Obama(Barry Soetoro) from their puppet-masters the government as we know it, is not the government is the global elitist.The media as we know it is all filled with cover ups owned by the globalist like Sumner redstone mpaa owner of cbs paramount mtv fox also mpaa run by australian born rupert murdoch owner of fox wall street fox news etc.
    Abc is own by Disney and I’m sure if Walt Disney was alive today he’d probably be angered by this and the control of power through the MPAA/RIAA!!
    Which in return is run by the “DRACONIAN” government and what should be shown and on TV or not.
    I want people to start noticing the signs the signs stop blaming each other start focusing on the draconian laws being possessed on people and we are not puppets.We are living breathing honest people that do and would share
    spend, money, buy products if things weren’t so damn expensive like gas and food and electricity etc etc etc.
    Need I honestly continue? need I honestly have to convince you all that it’s not the”American people to blame nor the Europeans nor the Asians nor Muslims or Israelis Germans but all on the government we need more honest leaders in government like Ron Paul Ron Wyden(WHO CRUSHED COICA) etc etc etc.
    i also am sorry if i haven’t mentioned leaders in other countries due to the fact I live in the usa.
    I honestly hope and wish that this Moses Avalon realizes taking down sites and taking down innovation to suit your puppet-masters is only hurting you and the people that supported you will no longer support you like kiss(Gene Simmons metallica and so many other puppets.
    We the people didn’t destroy the industry it’s the industry destroying itself.
    As for indie artist you can’t let the industry get in your way you can’t stop telling the big labels to shove it were the sun don’t shine keep doing what you are doing keep believing in yourselves.
    truthers keep fighting against the government do what we have done in miami florida usa and vote out government like we did to the mayor etc next and hopefully the antichrist senator we have.hopefully the workld will start doing what egypt has done and said enough is enough.
    my blessings to the people of the world.
    As for the government v is for victory see you in hell:D.

    P.S.LAST TIME I CHECKED LAWS HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE HOUSE AND ASWELL AS THE SENATE BEFORE SOMETHING BECOMES A LAW.THEN SIGNS BY EL PRESIDENTE!!!

  • http://twitter.com/Mathew30 Mathew Lisett

    LOL this just made me laugh , i actually had to read this more than 4 times to believe what was said. so in effect even though bittorrent and p2p systems have been used as a legal service by well know companies including a recent movie company. the politicians in the states are so stupid that they are saying sod it we cant really do anythign effective with illegal stuff, so lets screw the legal stuff aswell with this new law.

    why the hell dont they listen, this is exactly why the public go the illegal way as they call it, becuase of the bullshit they do. how on earth can the consumer do stuff legally when they make legal stuff illegal?

    and now they are goign to use the wiretapping process, which i believe was initally brought in effect many years ago to protect the public against its government, they have been and still are twisting this law for their own purposes and saying they will openly use it against the legal consumer taking down any site etc that uses any service or even mentions the p2p word.

    well i guess freedom of speech might aswell be taken away from their country then

    No doubt we will find that this person is a member of some board that helps the riaa/mpaa etc and actually doesnt understand the p2p system oand helps come up with the BS facts and figures that have been proven time and time again to be total BS and made up

  • Adame McShanke

    b.o butthole. don’t censor torrentfreak else you are no better than the mongrels.

  • Adame McShanke

    b.o butthole. don’t censor torrentfreak else you are no better than the mongrels.

  • musicfan

    Avalon shares a well-thought and expert opinion on the immiment P2P felony legislation — Unfortunately, it is completely lost on those who call themselves “torrentfreaks”, aka thieves. If your blog actually shared any valuable thoughts on the issue that is causing considerable loss to artists and our culture maybe it would be worthwhile to read. Instead, it is just a forum to bash others who are trying to resolve the issue of digital theft of not just music and entertainment content that fuels the Internet but also to provide some sense of security when Americans use the Internet to express their thoughts and purchase goods and services.

    • hotdog

      LOSS TO ARTIST MY AZZ MAYBE YOUR MAFIAA RUN PUPPET MUSICIANS.I am an artist i share my music and make money on youtube. I’m losing oh freaking no!!! lmao. so which record label told you type this worthless babel and I mean seriously stop talking about loss of money when these mafiaa run-down puppet musicians are making millions.

      • JJBiener

        If you are an artist, post a link to your music and provide us with some evidence that it really is you.

        • hotdog

          lol I could actually show you but I’d show ernesto and engimax before I would show anyone on top of that i”d also show a screenshot of the revenue sharing video I have which states “revenue sharing”.what do you think I was born 2 hours ago?
          Secondly I’m making money through Google adsense which basically everyone does that gets paid on youtube. last but not least you have to be approved through Google to make money and you need atleast 65,000 video views.thanks though tricks are for kids.Now back to your regularly scheduled posting.

    • Shalom

      >music and entertainment content that fuels the Internet

      >implying the internet was invented for Jews to sell their crap

    • Shalom

      >music and entertainment content that fuels the Internet

      >implying the internet was invented for Jews to sell their crap

    • music fan (but not yours)

      Please realize this “musicfan” is not me!

      • music fan 0

        maybe if i can change my name to music fan 0??

  • James

    Some of these comments, especially the endless ones pointing out how absolutely awesome Obama is, have really moved me. From now on, I’ll learn every musical instrument there is, make my own recordings, and only pirate the music of dead artists. Of course, if I play my favourite song on my own guitar, I’m copying it, but meh. Technicalities.

  • Grey Wolf

    Moses site has an article saying someone here threatened to kick his ass???
    Did that get removed before i could see it? Or is he just grandstanding this like he does everything else, a has been (likely never was) background performer for some bands that made it, thinks hes qualified to analize some whitepaper the morons in DC pumped out?? Needs to crawl back under the rock and GTFU!

    • JJBiener

      Maybe you should learn who he is before posting something like this…

      • Anonymous

        From what he has said so far I suspect a giant walking penis but maybe there is some sanity to him if we look hard enough.

  • Anonymous

    The most interesting thing about the rebuttal article was the absence of a byline. The response could be one phrase, ‘the emperor has no clothes’. Moses hit all the targets in his article, but they orbit the massive saturn-like planet target that he failed to mention. . . a target that violates copyright laws millions of times each day and NO ONE seems to care since they’re owned by Google. YouTube. Ok – it’s not P2P, unless you consider the YouTube server your peer.

    And Moses, don’t worry about being a narcissist, normally those who point at others are full of the trait themselves, AND some of the qualities of a narcissist are some of the same qualities shared by the most successful people in the world. As long as you do care for others and do not hold yourself above the world as some messiah, you’re ok to spread your unique narcissistic tendencies as you navigate a difficult business and interesting era.

  • Jay

    I love you TF, but I feel like I just wasted about 7 minutes of my life reading this :-)

  • Loki

    Hey today is not 1st April !!

  • DocGerbil100

    It’s now pretty obvious that the comment section on this thread has been occupied by a troll contingent (or possibly just one really prolific troll). I checked out the (supposed) musicians who seem to have identified themselves by name.

    TC Smythe: no discernible torrent-presence whatsoever.
    JJBiener: no discernible torrent-presence whatsoever.
    Rick Steffen: no discernible torrent-presence whatsoever.
    Bob Malone: success – artist has been torrented twice.

    Bob Malone open torrents: has one dead torrent from eight months ago – it contained four mp3 albums from 1999-2003. It’s a possible fake from the dodgy file-sizes on the last album, has no seeders and has never been downloaded by anybody.

    Bob Malone private torrents: has one live torrent, made available just over a month ago – the album ‘Like It Or Not’ in FLAC format. No-one has bothered to complete the artist info, the torrent has just one seeder and has never been downloaded by anybody.

    It must have taken a little work to track down such utterly obscure no-hopers – I think congratulations are seriously in order for one of the strangest, most surreal acts of trolling I’ve ever seen on TF! Thanks for the lulz, guys! :D

    • JJBiener

      Doc, so in order to have credibility to you we first have to be victimized by you? Wow, that’s great logic.

      I think you’ve missed the point. You don’t see my music out there, because I don’t put it out there. I share it with my friends. At this point I am not interested in spending the time and money to market my music just to have thieves like you steal my work. I have better ways to spend my time and money.

      You see this is what you guys are missing. There are thousands of musicians like me who choose not to participate. Some are better than others. Some are truly gifted. You will never know, because they choose not to be victims.

      This is simple economics, supply and demand. If you artificially force the price of something down, the supply dries up. So keep doing what you do, and soon all you will have left is Taylor Swift and Katy Perry. Enjoy.

      • Anonymous

        No, you don’t see your music out there, because we don’t think it is worth sharing. If it was good, one of us would be uploading it because your friends would be sharing it.

        People look at the top downloaded songs, not the rigged top 40 with pushed artists that suck. The smart ones are the ones that don’t hold back now that you do. Less competition for them. They will be making money while you sit at home being angry. lol.

        • JJBiener

          Wow, you are really stretching, aren’t you? According to you, people who are my friends will take my music and post it on P2P against my express wishes. Do your friends do things like this to you? If they do, I don’t think they are really your friends.

          The smart musicians are not the ones giving their music away. Look at the artists who are making money. They are the ones who establish a relationship with their fans so their fans will buy music.

          This is so obvious to most people, I am surprised I have to even post it. Free is not a business model.

        • Just Sayin

          You really think art and artists are pushed? I think that is a disconnection from reality. I have been reading all these posts. Both sides occasionally making some awful points. but i had to comment on this one. If that is your view point try this perspective: Taylor Swift, Ian MacKaye, Thom Yorke, Katie Perry, TV on Radio (this list can go on and on) all have one thing in common- They work their asses of and will do it for the rest of their lives because the found something they love. I hope you have. You could maybe relate and not feel like things are getting pushed on you. Sure keep downloading because you’re right if it’s good it will get out there. Not because of a miracle or a phantom all powerful corporation but because there is a sincere desire of the artist to follow through. That goes for you too JJ.

        • Just Sayin

          You really think art and artists are pushed? I think that is a disconnection from reality. I have been reading all these posts. Both sides occasionally making some awful points. but i had to comment on this one. If that is your view point try this perspective: Taylor Swift, Ian MacKaye, Thom Yorke, Katie Perry, TV on Radio (this list can go on and on) all have one thing in common- They work their asses of and will do it for the rest of their lives because the found something they love. I hope you have. You could maybe relate and not feel like things are getting pushed on you. Sure keep downloading because you’re right if it’s good it will get out there. Not because of a miracle or a phantom all powerful corporation but because there is a sincere desire of the artist to follow through. That goes for you too JJ.

  • DocGerbil100

    It’s now pretty obvious that the comment section on this thread has been occupied by a troll contingent (or possibly just one really prolific troll). I checked out the (supposed) musicians who seem to have identified themselves by name.

    TC Smythe: no discernible torrent-presence whatsoever.
    JJBiener: no discernible torrent-presence whatsoever.
    Rick Steffen: no discernible torrent-presence whatsoever.
    Bob Malone: success – artist has been torrented twice.

    Bob Malone open torrents: has one dead torrent from eight months ago – it contained four mp3 albums from 1999-2003. It’s a possible fake from the dodgy file-sizes on the last album, has no seeders and has never been downloaded by anybody.

    Bob Malone private torrents: has one live torrent, made available just over a month ago – the album ‘Like It Or Not’ in FLAC format. No-one has bothered to complete the artist info, the torrent has just one seeder and has never been downloaded by anybody.

    It must have taken a little work to track down such utterly obscure no-hopers – I think congratulations are seriously in order for one of the strangest, most surreal acts of trolling I’ve ever seen on TF! Thanks for the lulz, guys! :D

  • DocGerbil100

    It’s now pretty obvious that the comment section on this thread has been occupied by a troll contingent (or possibly just one really prolific troll). I checked out the (supposed) musicians who seem to have identified themselves by name.

    TC Smythe: no discernible torrent-presence whatsoever.
    JJBiener: no discernible torrent-presence whatsoever.
    Rick Steffen: no discernible torrent-presence whatsoever.
    Bob Malone: success – artist has been torrented twice.

    Bob Malone open torrents: has one dead torrent from eight months ago – it contained four mp3 albums from 1999-2003. It’s a possible fake from the dodgy file-sizes on the last album, has no seeders and has never been downloaded by anybody.

    Bob Malone private torrents: has one live torrent, made available just over a month ago – the album ‘Like It Or Not’ in FLAC format. No-one has bothered to complete the artist info, the torrent has just one seeder and has never been downloaded by anybody.

    It must have taken a little work to track down such utterly obscure no-hopers – I think congratulations are seriously in order for one of the strangest, most surreal acts of trolling I’ve ever seen on TF! Thanks for the lulz, guys! :D

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_GI5OG23ASPKRT533JFVAEAMZTQ steven

    Dear Moses Avalon,
    Welcome to the world of file sharing. I am glad you think you can shut all these websites down and control what people can and can not do.. It is morons like you who cause people to distance themselves from the MPAA and RIAA. Go ahead, feel proud about what you want to do. Hope you like living in a cave. People will just get pissed off and start downloading even more just to prove a point. For every block you come up with, my millions of friends will show the world ten ways to get around you. You forget, my friends are a lot smarter than yours. History proves this. What are you gonna do? Shut down the internet? We will still be file sharing, ha, ha, ha, lol.

    • JJBiener

      I would love to seem some of you anti-copyright types end up in a Federal penitentiary. It would give you a whole new meaning for the word “sharing”.

    • JJBiener

      I would love to seem some of you anti-copyright types end up in a Federal penitentiary. It would give you a whole new meaning for the word “sharing”.

      • jack.ss

        JJBiener quote of the year:
        “Is looking for work in the real world as either a BA or a QA Manager. Any leads would be appreciated :( ”

        Hey JJ, jail ain’t that bad – And please don’t be so stupid that you insinuate that we convicts are gays. Maybe you seen to much Hollywood crap? Maybe thats how you talk down in Cape Canaveral, Florida – Gays are convicts and convicts are gay?

        Looking forward to hear some more wisdom from the real world of JJ :D

        • JJBiener

          I see you’ve been trolling my MySpace page. How industrious of you.

          I never said convicts were gay. I didn’t even imply it. Do you have something you would like to talk abotu?

        • jack.ss

          JJBiener
          Nobody put a comment on your myspace for 108 days – So why do you accuse me of trolling your page?
          You are the one coming here for trolling, we are not going to your page and add stupid comments.

          I Googled; “JJBiener punishment” and came up with this remark from JJ the man:
          “I agree that merely possessing child pornography doesn’t harm the child and punishment is more trouble than it is worth.”

          Whats in your closet?

          And you want to put filesharers in prison?

        • JJBiener

          Is there some relevant point you are trying to make here, or are you just combing through my past posts so you take something out of context and use it as a personal attack?

          Really, Jack, is this the best you can do?

        • jack.ss

          By saying “I agree that merely possessing child pornography doesn’t harm the child and punishment is more trouble than it is worth.”, you’ve gone from being a troll to being someone most people would like to…

          We in the filesharing community hate pedophiles, we don’t share that kind of material on any site.

          BTW, thanks for admitting it really was you that wrote those posts – Now, crawl back under the rock you came from.

        • JJBiener

          Jack, are you still on this? If you read the discussion, you will know that I advocated extremely harsh punishments for anyone who harms a child up to and including capital punishment.

          What it comes down to is either you didn’t read the conversation in which case you were only looking for a cheap shot. If you did read the conversation you are simply a liar. In either case the only reason you are posting this is because you can’t counter my arguments as they relate to copyrights so you are attacking me personally.

          While you are on your high horse, you should know that pedophiles do use the P2P networks to trade child pornography and traffic in children. While you are busy defending the use of P2P for illegal activity, you are defending them as well. Chew on that for a while.

        • JJBiener

          I see you’ve been trolling my MySpace page. How industrious of you.

          I never said convicts were gay. I didn’t even imply it. Do you have something you would like to talk abotu?

  • lol

    why dont all these alledged performing artists piss off back to their nazi propoganda site and leave all the free thinking people alone , we dont want your oppresive laws or opinions here , we can happily think and decide on our own.

    And your alledged “expert” moses (and i use the term expert very loosly) has proved that he is nothing short of a racist bigot with the comments he has made on that blog and i hope that the site and blog owners that those disgusting comments are aimed at sue his ass back to the stoneage!
    [quote=moses]
    “These guys are no different in my view than racist blogs inciting gay-bashing, and Antisemitism or “Freedom” blogs that are vestibules for home-grown terrorism.”[/quote]

    • M&M allahu ackbar

      “These guys are no different in my view than racist blogs inciting gay-bashing, and Antisemitism or “Freedom” blogs that are vestibules for home-grown terrorism.”

      All of that is legal in America, especially the last one. You can even write a rap song about how you want to “see the president dead”. Of course the RIAA won’t defend you for that right now, since Obama is one of their presidents.

    • M&M allahu ackbar

      “These guys are no different in my view than racist blogs inciting gay-bashing, and Antisemitism or “Freedom” blogs that are vestibules for home-grown terrorism.”

      All of that is legal in America, especially the last one. You can even write a rap song about how you want to “see the president dead”. Of course the RIAA won’t defend you for that right now, since Obama is one of their presidents.

  • Knux

    O god… All the people that freaked thinking this story was about the govt shutting TF down -sighs- And it’s not even bloody April Fools lol

  • Pingback: Moses Avalon: Websites will change their tune if P2P becomes a felony | MyCE – My Consumer Electronics

  • http://www.nexusddl.com NexusDDL

    I couldnt care less about this law, it will not make me close my sites…. Just because I do not live or host in the US :)

  • Moses is a Jewish name

    If you think the RIAA trying to stop file sharing is pointless, how futile is it for pirates to insist that companies keep making products for them to take without paying? You know who runs the music and movie industries, and when you pirate, you’re literally “jewing a jew”.
    They wandered in the desert for 50 years because Moses dropped a quarter, they’ll never give up on the piracy issue.

  • Qobarmass

    What a dirty nigger.

    • Cat “da suicide bomb” Stevens

      Recommended post. Treating this article with all the seriousness it deserves.

  • http://laibcoms.com JC John Sese Cuneta ??? ?????

    Seriously? Or 1 week ahead of April Fool’s?? ;)

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  • Grey Wolf

    I just love how the assorted trolls on here (or the one person using multiple personas) always manage to ingore the comment/response to attempt to belittle the person they are responding to. We are trying to tell you why what you see happening is, and you just want to bitch.
    I’ve about decided that this whole troll fest is a set up by Moses himself to make his “points” heard on a broader scale. If you think about it, every one of these “industry” and “artist” people suddenly show up on here after he (Moses) started spouting his BS???
    Funny that!

  • Alis

    Well thats nice, can’t even say the truth about P2P anymore… Good thing i dont live in us.

    Thats just sad, cant influence people with bullshit reports about how piracy is bad so they make it illegal to say that the reports are bullshit…

  • wtf am i reading

    Censorfreak is deleting comments again. Don’t bother replying.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_4SCIYMGGXZOLMMUXG7NRYIO5OY ma.flor

    Its really kinda weird that US officials wants TF to shut down while in fact some legal offices and groups are a partner of it. And I guess this will be a long battle if they do so shutting down TF.

    “We help Americans find jobs, prosperity and explore Asia. For details, visit http://www.pathtoasia.com/jobs

  • Sampsa72

    TorrentFreak – Moses Avalon: 1–0

    Also, isn’t TorrentFreak UK-based?

    And still, should Freedom of Speech really sink in the States, you could just sail overseas.

    What an asshole.

  • Anonymous

    Moses Avalon, I downloaded all of your works and then I sent them to my Recycle Bin. So, I robbed you, and then through you out with the trash. Toodles.

  • Anonymous

    Moses Avalon, I downloaded all of your works illegally and then immediately sent them to the Recycle Bin. So, I robbed you and tossed you out with the garbage. Toodles.

  • QQ

    Obarmasre is a dirty nigger

  • Joe

    Music industry is my favorite oxymoron.

  • Amangy96

    The framers of the US constitution must be turning in their graves. What is freedom of speech? Is it proper for big business industry to dictate legislation? A tragedy.

    • JJBiener

      The framers of the US Constitution also specifically addressed protection of copyrights. Which do you think would be more offensive to them, the widespread theft of copyrighted material or a law that seeks to stop the aiding and abetting of illegal activity?

      • mron kicker

        You know what, youre right they did cover that…and it damn sure doesnt read life plus 70 years asshole!

        • JJBiener

          MF – If by some quirk of fate you are actually able to mate and reproduce, wouldn’t you expect to be able to pass on your property to your descendants? Why shouldn’t an artist who creates a piece of music be able to pass the ownership of it down to his/her children?

        • Anonymous

          Because i would have the copyright to fire. As it was passed down to me. Seeing as even living reproducing organisms can be copyrighted. So can a chemical reaction. And i say you are not allowed to use fire. And if you accidentally burn your house down due to a short circuit, you owe me one million dollars! Muhahaha.

  • JJBiener

    I have a question for anyone who might still be hanging around this discussion.

    What about the songwriters?

    Songwriters are entitled by law to a mechanical royalty for every copy made of a song. Not every unit sold. Copied.

    You can’t blame the labels for this. It has nothing to do with them. If you are making a copy of a song, you owe the songwriter. How do justify not paying him/her?

    Anyone?

    • JJBiener

      Isn’t anyone going to step up and give me an answer on this one? You are great at spewing venom at those you perceive as being a problem to society. What about the innocent victims of your virtual reign of terror? What are they supposed to do?

      • Anonymous

        Don’t ask questions when everyone has already left.

        The 1992 Audio Home Recording Act (AHRA) exempts consumers from copyright infringement lawsuits when they record music for private, noncommercial use.

        So not every copy…

  • http://landoffallendreams.tumblr.com LandOfFallenDreams

    No one has even mention the fact that SKYPE runs on P2P…
    http://www.skype.com/intl/en-us/support/user-guides/voip/
    LOL

    • JJBiener

      The problem is not the technology. It is how people use it to deprive artists of their property.

      • http://landoffallendreams.tumblr.com LandOfFallenDreams

        ah but ,according to this law, ALL p2p is horrid and will be made a felony! So it seems as though their action would have. negative impact on the, already declining, economy.

        • JJBiener

          You need to get your facts straight. We are talking about a white paper from the White House which will likely become law, and it is concerning copyright infringement, not P2P technology.

        • JJBiener

          You need to get your facts straight. We are talking about a white paper from the White House which will likely become law, and it is concerning copyright infringement, not P2P technology.

    • JJBiener

      The problem is not the technology. It is how people use it to deprive artists of their property.

  • Platodreams

    Lets fuckup this dickheads channel!
    http://www.youtube.com/user/moknowsmusic

    • Wear Sunglasses 24/7

      No need to boost the tiny view count of his TV interviews nobody gives a shit about. Let this story drop off the front page and allow Moses Avalon to fade back into obscurity.
      The only reason it’s here is because Torrentfreak wanted to start a shitstorm in the comments section. Or they’re narcissists who make an article every time another blog mentions them.

  • Platodreams

    Lets fuckup this dickheads channel!
    http://www.youtube.com/user/moknowsmusic

  • http://profiles.google.com/naboo.ws nabo0o wormsen

    Tragic fellow that Avalon. Yikes, the first part of this text made me really worried about the future of the net ….

  • Bola

    Why is Torrentfreak making slanderous comments about another website owner? I come here to read news, not your opinions about this guy and his opinions. The way you formulate the article makes you look like a 15 year old, near the end at least. I can tolerate your constant bias and affected writing but when you start personally attacking someone who is actually /on your side/ it becomes a bit stupid.

    • anonymous

      Dude, its his site and he has an oppinion…so hes gonna state that oppinion, you dont have to like it or agree with it, Hell you dont even have to come back here and read any more of it. Nobody forced you to come here!

  • http://profiles.google.com/skybon ????? ???????

    Not funny

  • Internet Backbone Engineer

    I think that what is the whole idea behind this crystal ball thing of Moshe (moses) is to inflame the discussion about P2P a bit, well he might be right or not, time will tell, but he wil only be right for US, the rest of the world is not that stupid to follow into this dumb understanding that killing P2P will end Filesharing. Actually no company can still function without filesharing, Skype is based on P2P, Google can already be used for filesharing (google docs, or an account with multiple login permit) Autodesk uses Filesharing, email is Filesharing, so Filesharing is essential and the reason internet exists. Without Filesharing there would be no need for the internet. And I guess all telecomm providers and ISP’s that generate more jobs than the music industry will not be led to the slaughterhouse without a fight..Internet will not die!
    So if this crystal ball thing of Moshe becomes reallity, we will get a financial and juridical war between Telecom and Hollywood… guess who will win.

    • Donotreply

      Telecom with a referral to the iiNet v AFACT (ahem: Hollywood) trial in Australia.

  • Gme

    here is what we should do….bend the music industry over….put some lube on our 11 inchers..and start pumping….hard

  • lazycritic

    Not only will it come down to writing about it and amending the Bill of Rights to do it, but it will also come down to the point where even when you buy a CD, DVD, BluRay, whatever.. your not actually buying it your leasing it. And mp3 downloads through legitimate services will then up the prices to collect even more, but those mp3s will also have a time limit on them, it will be an all new format, any non authorized mp3 players, winamp, vlc, other will have to shut it down so to speak and so on and so forth.. all bs i say, the whole lot of it.. So some kid in bumf*** idaho, downloads a single tune, the FBI bursts in, takes him down and slaps him with a felony for having done it. That is pure awesomeness. So now parents have to not only teach there kids common sense like look both ways before crossing, but the rules of the internet which change daily..

  • Jez

    Just tell me one thing guys – if you spent 6 weeks working on something flat out, you had no time to work a “normal” job because you were working flat out on it. It was your baby. Would you honestly just give it away?

    Regardless of Moses’ blunt and perhaps unfortunate manner of putting his point across and misunderstanding of P2P you have to understand that it’s not your choice whether something’s available for free or not and if you force that you are already breaking the law – I won’t pretend to know much about American law but from the sounds of it this just cements that and provides more protections.
    If you’re so rich you don’t have to work and you spent 6 weeks on that thing maybe you would want to give it away for free, that’s your choice but surely if other people want the thing you created you have a right to choose how you are compensated for your work?
    If you’d spent 6 weeks working flat out in a restaurant you’d be a bit pissed if everyone just took their food, said thank you very much and left without paying wouldn’t you?

    Argue over Moses’ personality all you like. Take the pot shots. Debate the real effect of that paper, should it become a reality but please never think you have some god given right to do what you like with someone elses hard work unless you pay the full value of that work (clue: on minimum wage that’s closer to £2100 than your £10 CD/Download for the manual work of one person alone).
    If you can’t accept that then I’m afraid here’s the reality: it’s you who needs to take a reality check and sort out your personality complexes.

    Peace.

    • Anonymous

      Not that your question hasn’t been answered like 4 times already in the comments or anything.

      Would i give it away for free? Yes, because i know you can make even more money then by selling it. Because your money does not go to the label + fanbase + donations + ads on website + radio fee + ect.

      If they made a copy of your food and took that, then you could still sell the food they did not take to someone else.

      £2100 / 6 billion people = £0,00000000035
      So as soon as you have reached a pound we will all give one to you ok?

      • Jez

        That’s fine, you give it away for free – that is YOUR CHOICE since it would be YOUR WORK. why should anyone else be forced to make your choice though?

        If they made a copy of my work, in that they took the song and recorded it with a full band and to the quality that my original work was (which is the equivalent of what you described) that would be something different, it would be a cover. The work isn’t the CD though is it? It’s the music embedded in it.

  • The UnUsual Suspect

    The heart of this matter is that if you make a digital product, it WILL get duplicated, end of story. Be it a user making copies for his family/friends, someone sharing it online, or someone selling it illegally. Those three very different violations need to be addressed separately. It seems the worst offense (selling illegally obtained products) gets ignored. Some attention is paid to the people who upload (original source of files, not p2p sharers), but all this legal crap going against the end user is crazy.

    If a recording artist wants to prevent illegal downloads, then sell the product online for what the market will bare. Don’t try to get retail CD prices for mp3 downloads, that is greedy and will never happen. If I buy your CD in a store, you would be VERY lucky to see $1 of the $20 I spend, so why not sell the CD online for $1?

    I surely would never download illegally something I could buy for $1.

    The only way for the recording industry to win here is to adapt to new technology, and use it to make the product cheaper, not using it to try to force prices to stay high.

    Also, No one is going to buy songs that fail to play unless we have a proper digital certificate installed on our player, so using DRM is definitely going to destroy efforts to evolve. The solution is simple. Today a fan doesn’t simply own a few CDs of a band they like, they want to own all of them, and to expect the fan to pay inflated retail prices for them all is crazy. I the product is priced right, it will sell, and you’ll still be making the same money, the only difference being you’ll be selling upto 100x more music to get it, but the beauty of it is the distribution will be effortless for you.

    This could be a win-win situation for fans and recording companies, if only they would wake up and embrace technology, instead of trying to suppress the fact that digital sharing is inevitable.

    • Jez

      “If I buy your CD in a store, you would be VERY lucky to see $1 of the $20 I spend, so why not sell the CD online for $1?”

      “Citation Needed”… since mp3s and cds are both released usually by the same company/person then we’re actually talking closer to $12 of every $20 you spend. I agree the price point of an MP3 should be lower than that of a CD but you’re plucking figures out of thin air. Do some research and form a valid opinion or you’re leaving yourself in the group of people I referred to in my above comment…

      • The UnUsual Suspect

        If someone wants to pay for my time, or I’m at least assured my work will add upto more then a comment on a blog, then I’ll do research, but I can assure you that my figures are MUCH more accurate then yours.

        1. Store sells CD for $20, but how much did the store actually pay for that CD? if it retails for $20, then they probably paid closer to $10. As with most products, they sell less then recommended retail, so in that case they probably paid about the very same $12 you claim the musician gets to keep. (that is totally insane to think they get that much, so maybe you were confused when you wrote it… perhaps?)

        2. Lets move one and assume they paid $12 from a distributor. They deal in bulk and probably paid $10 for it when they bought it from the manufacturer (not the music company, but some factory, probably in Aisa).

        3. The factory pays a percentage of that $10 to the company owning the material, perhaps $5-7. (note that there is a huge amount of transportation costs all through this process.

        I think it’s very optimistic to even assume a record company gets as much as $5 from an album sale, plus take into account the cost of refunded purchases, defective products, stolen stock (shoplifted or hijacked/lost/etc), and much of the products produced are discounted or offered in other promotions, so whatever isn’t sold quickly is often sold a lot cheaper, sometimes at a loss.

        In the end, a very popular album might actually get the record company a net of $4-5, but on average of all albums, probably more like 1-3.

        Now, how much of that 1-3 do you think goes to the artist, and how much do they keep… how much goes to other companies involved in production, how much goes to advertisement.

        I may be plucking numbers out of the air, but I’m doing it with some knowledge and some common sense, and I’d say if the artist earns $1 of every album sold, I’d be surprised, and yes, if they sold that same album for $1-2 as a download, they would earn profit.

        You are quick to say my numbers don’t have evidence to back them up, but your numbers defy both common sense and logic.

        • Jez

          Read what I said again, I said that the person ultimately selling the CD gets about 12 dollars and your roadmap is wrong. I’m sorry but it’s wrong. Record companies have CDs pressed for the distributor, the distributor gets it to the shops – this is how something called mechanical royalty is collected – either on pressing or on confirmed sale but through the record company because the record company controls the pressing. In the case of the majors you’re actually talking about the record company almost if not all the way there since the major distributor is arvato (owned primarily by BMG) along with EMIs own distribution arm and then the likes of PIAS.

          THEREFORE: Record company is the one who gets the majority of that $12 and there’s another reason your false logic of ‘sell it for a dollar’ doesn’t work. Artists do not have different deals for digital sales for the mostpart therefore by selling it at 1 dollar you’re reducing their income in this instance by eleven twelfths. And if they have a record deal they can’t just “do it themselves” since the record company owns the sound recording – all of which I’m sure you knew, and were simply testing me with your ‘some knowledge’.

          ALSO: the artist and writer DO NOT get paid by what you pay or the store pay. They are paid a percentage of something called ‘PDP’ or ‘Published Dealer Price’ for each sale made regardless of what price is paid at the till or by the store – this is an arbitrary figure that is very rarely paid by a retailer in the case of CDs which will be dramatically discounted in many cases but it makes the accounting process fairer and easier.

          You have some knowledge and common sense? Sorry for my ignorance, clearly that trumps my first class degree in Music Business…

        • The UnUsual Suspect

          Most of this stuff is manufactured overseas. You can say the record companies “control” it in that they decide who is going to do it, and that they “distribute” it, but they don’t own the factories (at least not that I’m aware of), nor do they own the warehouses, nor the trucks, all of which are paid to deliver the product, but no matter who owns it, it still adds to the cost of getting the product to market.

          also, not sure what a “first class” degree is, but hey, if you say your an expert, thats fine with me.

          As for…

          “another reason your false logic of ‘sell it for a dollar’ doesn’t work. Artists do not have different deals for digital sales”,

          that is the problem now isn’t it?

          This is because the record companies are trying to pull a “fast one” over on the consumer, and few fall for it, by paying CD prices for mp3 downloads. If they looked at digital distribution as a method of reducing sale prices, then they could have profited from it, but instead they looked at digital distribution as a way to get even richer, even quicker, by selling for the same price and putting a lot of “middlemen” out of a job.

          Be it right or wrong, the fact is that a digital product can easily be copied, so they need to adjust to this fact and sell in volume. Trying to get the fans arrested and locked up, or scaring people away from downloading music isn’t going to sell CDs and mp3s, it’s only going to create resentment. I agree that the current system won’t make this easy to do, but the current system needs to change, or die, and it will do one of those two options.

          Did you know that most DVDs can be purchased overseas (legally) for $1-2 usd? I’m sure the same is true for music too, but my point is that I can have my friend in Asia buy me DVDs legally (which I do) and ship them to me (also legally), and as long as they aren’t being shipped for the purpose of commercial sales, its all legal. Even after paying for shipping overseas, I’m still paying about $2 for a dvd that sells for $20. They are even in Region 1 NTSC, same format as usa discs. The only difference is English and Chinese subtitle options instead of English and spanish, so if they can sell them there for $1-2 RETAIL, why can’t they sell digital downloads for even less?

        • Jez

          True, they own the factories less and less – it used to be that they owned the pressing plants and distribution but these days it’s more and more common that they get it done dirt cheap in eastern europe or china. Still, the cost of packaging and pressing per cd still comes to less than 50c in most cases – remember by the majors these things are done in huge runs in the tens if not hundreds of thousands – your bulk discounts apply here too and to any outsourced distribution – it’s not all that expensive just to post a CD, it’s even cheaper per CD if you’re sending out thousands.

          I also said I agree that the price points are too high on MP3s, I simply argued your $1 logic was flawed ;) I also agree that the industry response was… rubbish. As does most of the industry these days actually – to the point it’s no longer RIAA or BPI policy to take people to court over downloading as it stands. They’re waiting for better laws to allow more transparent investigations and better deterrents. The current system will change, but don’t kid yourself into thinking it will die.

          Take a look at France in 2010 – recent figures (I’d link but you need to be subscribed to Music Week to see them) show that since the introduction of the French HADOPI anti-piracy laws a year ago more than 50% of people who had been file sharing copyrighted material have stopped or significantly reduced their use – not because they’ve been arrested but they’ve realised that actually you know what, it’s illegal and it’s not worth the risk. France is one of the territories that has also seen very strong growth in the digital sector for 2010 ;) The industry is slowly getting there in terms of ‘getting it right’ – services like Spotify and other subscription based models are starting to get some success and bring in real revenue while giving people access to music digitally at perhaps a fairer price than those cd prices. Afterall, if you have the worlds repertoire at your fingertips, legally, for $10 a month or with ads, why do you need to illegally share it? There’s not even a faint excuse there is there?

          Yes I did, you can also buy MP3s from Russia, legally, for a fraction of their legal cost in the US. If you feel happy taking advantage of that then do so, it won’t last since noone’s happy with the current international licensing structure (and russias very low licensing fees are what allows that) but for now it’s legal. The moral question is are you happy for the writer and artist to earn a pittance or would you rather try and give them a (comparatively) decent amount?
          Although $1-2 chart CDs are almost certainly pirated (and if you’re getting them from China I can say 9 times out of 10 they will be since China doesn’t make any effort to respect international copyrights).

        • The UnUsual Suspect

          actually your wrong about China, they have cracked down on illegal file sharing more then any other country. They even require their ISPs to block a huge portion of the internet, even sites like “facebook” and “imageshack” (God only knows why they block them).

          Twain and Hongkong are a different story, they have a strong business in producing pirated material for sale. I think anyone who uses pirated material for profit should be charged with a crime, and “maybe” even the person that buys it and puts it on the internet so he/she can get hits on a website. They are violating laws, but I have no problem with someone downloading songs to listen to. It all boils down to what you do with it. For example, I own close to 1000 movies that I’ve purchased legally (actually combination of movies and tv shows on dvd/vhs), and I also have about an equal number that I’ve downloaded. If I download a movie and like it, I’ll buy it, if the price is fair in regards to quality. I might not rush out and pay opening day retail price for it, but I do support that which I enjoy, and 99% of what I download gets deleted after I view/listen. It’s not much different then watching on TV or listening on Radio, and I find it very strange that no one is talking about the street vendors selling pirated DVDs and CDs on city streets. Every city has them and nothing is done, there is no be outcry from MPAA or RIAA about that, all they want to complain about is fake dollar losses. They think I would buy an album if I couldn’t download it… haha…. I’d never buy any album I couldn’t hear first and I’m not one to go listen to music in a store, so it never would happen. 1 download does not mean 1 lost sale. I’d go as far as to say 100 downloads doesn’t even equal 1 lost sale.

          I actually agree with a lot of what you say, but these anti p2p groups are going after the wrong crowd. Go after the people selling pirated material, not viewing/listening, and go after whoever leaked it in the first place, if they can find them.

        • Jez

          This is to the one below, but again maximum nested replies.

          About China: yes they’ve done a lot but when you’re starting with an industry estimated (use your preferred search engine) in the mid 2000s at 90% pirated content even when you’ve done a lot you’re still in a very bad state.

          The difference between watching it on TV or listening on radio and downloading illegally? Well, not quite so huge in the States at the moment since you don’t put performance royalties on radio stations (something that is going to change in the near future) – everywhere else it’s a cumulative effect. The more people download for free instead of listening on radio the lower the radio listening stats are, the less they pay for the content, the less royalties go out to the performers and writers. In a case where you have a small band or artist that can be a very significant fee to their career.

          Anyway, if that’s your only reason why aren’t you using things like Rdio or even YouTube? Youtube you can listen to the track for free and a royalty is paid.

          And once again: what do you think gives you the right to just have someone elses work cos you want it? If you can’t afford something don’t have it. That simple. There are legal, free ways to listen to an album before you buy from your computer – or so you never have to buy in fact, so if you are, as you say, only doing it to preview why don’t you use them instead?

        • The UnUsual Suspect

          Simple and short reply. Price an mp3 download at a fair price and there would be little or no illegal downloads of it.

          You can debate forever what a fair price would be, but that doesn’t detract from the fact that there is truth to the statement.

        • Anonymous

          Ok i have 200,000 songs. How do you expect someone to come up with 200,000 x 12 dollar? Look at market value. If people all has 100 houses they would be worth nothing, even if it costs a full year to build…

        • Jez

          Ok first of all noone sells a single for $12, so you have at best 20,000 albums. Let’s ignore the fact that anyone would struggle to write or record 200,000 songs in a lifetime let alone in a year and assume you have 20,000 individual albums and they’re all amazing. If you’ve worked on them for a year surely the minimum to buy them out should be about $20,000? A minimum wage to live on.

          Actually you know what, I was going to make an intelligent reply but go back and re-read what I originally posted and then think before you comment, maybe you’ll come up with something that’s not contradictory to what I said and not quite so ludicrous.

        • Anonymous

          $20,000 per album? Assuming it is a good one. So lets say you sell to 1/3 of the population. That means a copy of your album costs (20,000 / 2,000,000,000) = $0,00001. Even if you only sold to 20,000 people it would cost $1. At $12 you only need to sell 1667 copies to break even.

          But 20,000 albums x $12 = $240,000. No one has that left to spend on music in a lifetime. And because the market is flooded with music, it is not worth $12 for a cd. Radio and tv stations pay you to play your music. Companies and parties pay you to have music on for more than 9 people. You get money from every blank cd / recording device sold. When is it enough?

          People sharing your stuff is a price negotiation. And more with the industry then with you personally. It is bloated, they try to employ too many people. The bonuses are too high. You can’t steal from people without expecting consequences. People know you rip them off.

          People in France all switched to a VPN. You say they stopped, but the data usage is not down, funny huh. So now no one can see what they do anymore and their ISP can’t stop them anymore. All that did is make piracy something you can earn money off by selling a VPN service. That is $5 a month for a whole nation that could have gone to the music industry.

          You destroy the net with your censorship. But what do you think? That will change one thing? No. I will give my friends my 1TB HD full of music and movies and they will copy the whole thing. Then theirs goes to their friends. The industry has lost it’s monopoly on making copies. Even if you completely destroy the net, you have still already lost. The world has changes while you were sleeping and ripping people off. Music and movies are no longer a big money business.

        • Anonymous

          Lets continue the discussion as new articles come along. This is not something for the bottom of a page in a long dead article. :)

        • Anonymous

          Lets continue the discussion as new articles come along. This is not something for the bottom of a page in a long dead article. :)

        • Anonymous

          Lets continue the discussion as new articles come along. This is not something for the bottom of a page in a long dead article. :)

        • Anonymous

          Lets continue the discussion as new articles come along. This is not something for the bottom of a page in a long dead article. :)

        • Anonymous

          Lets continue the discussion as new articles come along. This is not something for the bottom of a page in a long dead article. :)

        • Jez

          For some reason I can’t reply to your lower post so I’ll reply here. You’re still not understanding my point PLEASE READ MY ORIGINAL POINT – cos you clearly haven’t done so.

          20,000 was for a YEARS WORK, you suggested 200,000 songs in a year which is utterly ridiculous but I was humouring you. Surely someone who works hard for a year deserves at least a $20,000 to get by? So this 20,000 was for you to OWN THE RIGHTS to the work he/she’d done in that year. If you want 20,000 people to share those rights it would cost $1 each but that’s not how it works is it? You’d all have to pay at the same time in a buyout, it’s not the same as buying the music for your own enjoyment which is the entire point I’m making. If you want to do anything you want with the music you have to be prepared to pay a fair price for the work irrelevant of what anyone else pays – you don’t go into a restaurant and say ‘well actually the $10 he paid for his pizza should cover mine too so I’m not going to pay’ do you? That’s someones hard work. As is the music. Someone puts the work in they own it to do as they wish – they can license you the rights to listen to it from a cd or mp3 but if you want to own those rights it has to cost a whole lot more, relative to the work put in. It’s fair. If you could get all the rights with a $10 download and you then made it available for free how would he get remunerated for all the hard work he put in?

          That said, I’m not going to try negotiating with someone who thinks someones work doesn’t belong to them at all. You will lose your battle and you will one day be grateful for that since if you win there will be no professional music for you to listen to. There will be no big budget films. Your logic is heroically flawed and at best, ignorant, at worst criminal. I hope, with all the best intentions, you and your friends get caught and forced to pay for the work you’ve stolen. It’s not your choice what’s free or not, what’s cheap or expensive. Buy what you can afford – if you can’t afford it you have no right to it. It’s not life or death if you have a piece of music is it? In the end if not enough people can afford it the price will come down anyway.

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  • Haxor

    ohhhhhh canada we stand on guard against the u….s….a

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  • AZERTYfaced

    “Avalon takes it up a notch claiming that writing about infringement and P2P will soon be a no go.”

    I’d love to see this happen. Any attempt to curtail First Amendment rights never ends well, and best case scenario always ends with somebody abusing their Second Amendment rights. :)

  • Zzeruch

    I think Moses is still stuck in the intellectual desert.

  • Davis

    wat de hell is wrong in dis AWESOME site so dat they hav to ban it!!!!!??? :O :P…They arent Digital Minded dats y!!! hahaha!!!! :D :D

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  • Anonymous

    He links to this site, thereby he is promoting the reading of this site which he says is illegal, Mo I think you should change your tune

  • faceman

    itsemu@gmail.com
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    Please contact me with marketing related e-mail.

  • ethan.eriksen

    Am I out of line by saying wiretaps because someone downloaded a $1.39 song is an unfair invasion of privacy, with or without warrants?

  • Borderliner

    You are confusing those who download and keep while not paying, and those who download and discard the downloaded as “crap” while not paying. The action of the latter is called “sampling”. The music industry encourages sampling, they just fail to mention to the average listener that “free sample” is a marketing ploy that the cosumer has forced onto them (going by logic in the lines of “I can try on shoes before buying them, I can flip through the book before buying it, why can’t I listen to the song before giving out my money for a compete/repeated listening?”)

    > You are doing harm to people who have done nothing to you.
    Wrong. They are harming my culture and legacy, building on the work of those who came before them. The only actual paying for this is when they “borrow” an actual piece of someone elses work into their own. And no, giving credit to your influences in a press interview doesn’t count, it’s not real money. I expect any artist who uses the “my time and money” argument to keep track of, and constantly pay to, those who made their art possible, starting with states of all the other artists whose art they have seen/listened to since their childhood and ending with the music teacher they had in the 5th grade. Not to mention dear old grandma who used to sing public domain lullaby songs when the artist was little.

  • The UnUsual Suspect

    The perfect example of the point some people are trying to make here is David Bowie.

    Fans have paid him millions upon millions of dollars over the past 30+ years, and now after he refused to publish an album over a dispute with recording company, he’s crying and whining that his “Toy-2001″ album was leaked.

    I have no sympathy for him. If it was me, I’d make a public announcement saying whoever is responsible should be prosecuted, but that I’m glad the music finally got out to the fans. Then I could quietly sue the record label, who he claims was the reason it never released.

    And by the way David, that album sucks, so I can understand why the recording company didn’t want to pay you what your used to earning. Make some good music, or do it for fun, your not a top recording artist anymore.

    I still like his old stuff though… gotta give him that much credit, but some of these so-called “artists” are like crybabies, just greedy for money.

  • http://www.facebook.com/John.Hearfield John Hearfield

    Please dont close TorrentFreak down… its the best website for torrent news.

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