TorrentFreak

The place where breaking news, BitTorrent and copyright collide

US Government Told Piracy Losses Are Exaggerated

At a hearing yesterday, several experts told the US International Trade Commission that many of the estimates of piracy losses touted by the entertainment industries were inflated or misleading. Others claimed that current enforcement methods aren’t working and suggested they try something else.

The US International Trade Commission (USITC) describes itself as “an independent, quasijudicial Federal agency with broad investigative responsibilities on matters of trade”. It has been asked by the US Senate’s Finance Committee to investigate the effect of China’s ineffective intellectual property protection and enforcement on the US economy.

At a hearing on the topic yesterday, many of the witnesses were sceptical of the claims and assumptions made by the affected US industries, including the MPAA and RIAA-commissioned reports. Harvard Business School Professor Fritz Foley called the basic assumption behind the industry loss figures into doubt.

“It seems a bit crazy to me,” PC World quotes him telling the Commission on the first day of the hearing. “To assume that someone who would pay some low amount for a pirated product would be the type of customer who’d pay some amount that’s six or 10 [times] that amount for a real one.” While some companies, such as EA (at times), don’t follow this ‘a copy equals a lost sale’ system, the majority do.

“Be careful about using information the multinational [companies] provide you,” cautioned Foley. “I would imagine they have an incentive to make the losses seem very, very large.”

Professor Foley’s comments reiterate what the Government Accountability Office told US congress earlier this year. There is virtually no evidence for the claimed million dollar losses. “Lack of data hinders efforts to quantify impacts of counterfeiting and piracy,” was one of the main conclusions from their report. In fact, copyright infringements may also benefit the entertainment industries and third parties, it argued.

An Intellectual Properly law professor at Drake University had another perspective. Pointing out there are two sides to economics, Professor Peter Yu noted that companies counterfeiting products in China may employ US workers, and consume US-sourced raw materials, so it’s not a straight loss. It’s similar to how VHS tapes were not the straight loss the movie industry predicted and claimed in the late 70s and early 80s. Yu also noted that it’s useful in spreading Western ideas to China, although how well lobbying will go down is anyone’s guess.

One of the best suggestions so far, however, came from Ohio State University law professor Daniel Chow. When asked how the size of the problem can be identified and quantified, he suggested that the agency should push the affected industries for more data, presumably data that backs up their claims (there is little-to-none available at present).

Professor Chow also noted that current enforcement efforts are not working (as we have previously reported), and that companies should start thinking about the long-term. It’s advice that the industries would be wise to follow, as every past copyright conflict has, despite a short-term loss, provided massive long-term benefits and growth for the affected industries.

Related Posts

Previous Post | Next Post

  • Anonymous

    And they’re gonna ignore it to make another retarded bill because the MAFIAA supplied them with hookers and blow for their annual Queen Mary 2 tour.

  • that guy P

    People… Making sense… About… Copyrights?

    Is this the twilight zone?

  • bitfiddler

    The movie folks said that VHS would be the death of their industry and attempted to outlaw it. But the ease of recording and time-shifting helped make movies popular again. The movie folks resisted allowing Wal Mart to sell DVDs for under $10, but it turns out that people will buy tons of movies at a reasonable price and give the movie industry huge profits. Sigh! If the studios would make their movies available for download for a reasonable price, with reliable high quality and no DRM, the piracy would come to a screeching halt and they could make excellent profits.

  • Kaptain Krunch

    What about the jobs that piracy created? VPN services are making a killing. Ad agencies are making a killing from these high volume bit torrent sites. Anti virus sites are kept employed defending networks from the viruses that the RIAA are planting to thwart piracy. Who else is getting rich from p2p activities?

  • Anonymous

    common sense? In my government? What is the world coming to?

  • DWKnight

    “common sense? In my government? What is the world coming to?”

    Welcome to Bizzaro-World
    Let’s all sprout goatees.

  • inviteforumfag

    i hate the argument that ‘a copy equals a lost sale’. good to see someone addressing that in a relevant forum.

  • anonymous

    dont worry folks. bringing common sense and facts into the conversation hasn’t worked so far. the entertainment industries are hell-bent in turning the internet into their own distribution network that no one else is allowed to use. if anyone thinks that there will be a change of mind, think again. as stated, they were advocating a disaster for the industry when vhs was released, but that increased their sales. downloading is/will do the same. they just want to stop anyone else from having a share of the monies. plus they have spent too much already in lawyer fees and back handers to give in now. they dont want to make themselves look even bigger plums than they do already! the government is far more likely as well to continue to take notice of the likes of dtectnet or similar and figures from the RIAA etc than from experts. the truth can be very painful. acknowledging it can be so much worse!!

  • Ano

    No matter how many times this is proven they’re just going to say they are wrong and buy more politician to push their ways.

  • SL

    TV was going to kill the cinema.
    cassettes were going to kill the radio.
    VCRs were going to kill TV and film industry.
    mp3s were going to kill music.

    They have a long, long history of lying to try and get things banned rather than adapt to new technology. Sadly it just takes one moron in power to be bought off and some draconian law that the majority dont want is passed.

    Its their attitude that means they drive people away from buying.

  • Pingback: Interesting News items - Page 19

  • djnforce9

    Of course there won’t be any effort made to produce figures corresponding to the “exact” losses. It’s not something that can easily be quantified and if even it could, I am certain the industry would not be willing to admit that it’s not as big of a problem as they make it out to be. That would be counter productive to their agenda.

  • Peter

    BUSTED

  • Anonymous

    The entertainementcorporates parasites are a pack of liars.

  • DJDANKVT

    Go Foley! One for the team!

  • Pingback: US Government Told Piracy Losses Are Exaggerated « SYSTEMA

  • neostyles

    This is absurd. Regardless of whether the current figures are entirely accurate, anyone who doubts the seriousness of piracy given it’s out of control prevalence is a moron. We are all aware of how many torrent sites there are out there.

  • Zorg

    Torture who you have to, the President, I don’t care. Just bring me the internets. You have one hour.

  • Gargamel

    This is the US government we’re talking about here. These Jack@ss’s are going to completely ignore this and deny reality. Again.

  • Davidhoff 13

    Is this where they demand money from the government for the crimes of the american people and take over the govt to mold it in their own images… images that suck. What do we need to license sound equipment yet? Seems to me they have a terrible headache and either need some serious meds or the guillotine! They’ll suck as much money as they can discover that the law allows and further garnish their whorish lifestyles…

  • Anonymous
  • nWo

    Get rid of hard copies, stream all forms of digital entertainment at low monthly price unlimited. End of piracy. Same goes for gaming, but they are already developing some sort of CLOUD gaming.

  • ASSH KHOLE

    They would gladly bring back cassettes, 8-tracks, vinyl record and VHS tapes to sell to us if they could.

  • iKo

    @ASSH
    And capital punishment. Oh wait.. In Europe.

  • James

    Let the MAFIAA keep their shit.

    With things like Pioneer One coming out on VODO, the MAFIAA will have their media and they can watch it and play with it all by themselves.

    We don’t need these Media controllers any longer.

    The MAFIAA will have a library full of their precious media that will not be watched by anyone and will collect dust not earning them a cent because of their pathetic greed and stupidity.

  • Pingback: Secrets To Getting A Federal Government Job.

  • Torturor

    Any data the corrupt corpoations that comprise the MPAA provide should be ignore considering the history of their industry.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_accounting

  • AnarchyNow

    What the MAFIAA calls Internet “piracy” is just the people wanting to stop paying for thin air.
    We have the right to choose between paying (some seems eager to give out their money to the greedy worse than nazy useless media industry) and not paying (that’s called FREEDOM).
    Companies that make money with “piracy” are liable to pay the MAFIAA since then they are competing for money against the “owners”, that’s why TPB has been condemned and that’s why I don’t support any hypocritical moneymaking “piracy” company (like rabidshit/gagaupload).
    Let’s also not forget there’s still the same old scam “pay us a fee and we’ll help you download what you want using free P2P”, these companies deserves to be exterminated, and that’s what the MAFIAA should focus on instead of going after the common people who use P2P without paying anything.

  • gorehound

    RIAA & MPAA can die as far as I feel.
    We ought toi be educating folks on the evils of these corporate assses who have riopped us off for a lifetime.

    “Paybacks a bitch”

  • Pingback: free and thinking» Blogg-arkiv » Verkligheten börjar hinna ifatt dikten… IDG.se - Störst på IT, dagliga IT-nyheter, tester, gratis forum, guider, skolor och nyhetsbrev mm

  • Trelew

    Despite the overwhelming evidence provided at this trade commission that is contrary to the lies of Big Business, the US government will side with the corporate suits. Not because they are right, but because they have been bought off by some corporate lobbyist behind closed doors.

    Sadly, the issue is larger than copyright laws. The issue at hand is corruption of society by Big Business. We have seen them corrupt governments who give them corporate-friendly legislation and corporate welfare. We have seem them corrupt our legal system to give them “show trials”. They corrupted our news media, where journalistic integrity has been replaced with corporate propaganda.

    We face a greater problem than some religious terrorist with a dirty nuke. We have ruthless criminals organizations (re: corporations) that have corrupted the foundations of society, not for the betterment, but for the greed and lust of power of the corporate elite.

  • lol

    WHAT IS THIS TRUTH NONSENSE?

    HAVE THESE MEN EXECUTED IMMEDIATELY! NONE OF THIS IS TRUE!

    (*that check from the mafiaa cashed right?*)

  • Pingback: Us Government Told Piracy Losses Are Exaggerated » The News Tracker

  • Avatar

    The only solution to fix online piracy is shutting down the internet and i am sure this is not going to happen so its gonna continue i guess

  • djc

    Piracy losses are GROSSLY over exaggerated. With reference to the RIAA in particular I can honestly attribute their problems to the way they treat the consumers and the fact that most of what they put out these days is pure shit.

    I remember in the early 80s when I was a teen how we used to tape vinyl albums between friends to 1. get more music for our money and…. 2. because the prerecorded tapes they sold were of the worst fucking quality ever.

  • adfj

    They don’t care one bit about “lost sales”….. we know they haven’t lost sales.

    They care about the loss of power and control. Right now their plastic doll “superstars” that are no talent hacks are selling you pepsi in one commercial, skin products in the next, and hey, looks like if you want to be cool you need this new cell phone too.

    With a free distribution channel, they can never manufacturer such plastic doll superstars in the first place, and OH YEAH, downloads tend to strip those commercials :)

    That’s the kind of mind control and brainwashing governments ador. They have very good reason to continue ignoring reality. How about a recording industry that promissed BUSH no anti war songs/albums? It happened. The iraq war of 91 inspired some of the best music for an entire decade… what’d the last one bring ya? NOthing.

    This war will be perptual until we break all chains. It’s a war on your personal freedom, your own control of your own thoughts, your culture. So come on, “pepsi generation”, KICK SOME ASS.

  • djc

    […]
    Your response is awaiting moderation.

    WTF man? what kind of joke is this anyway.

  • dave

    Surely before a company can sue for damages they must prove to the court that damages have been incurred, and to what degree. Unless they can show the data that supports their position, they should be ineligible to sue.

  • Jo Denny

    Wouldnt surprise me in the least dude. Seriously.

  • oxymoron69

    You guys need to ditch these *.at.tc
    spammers. It’s been a blight on your site for years now, and they’ve spread to every other site that has comments as well.

    Can you guys not set up a reporting system or at least a text filter to block URLS from spammers??

    I mean a comment from jo denny that says:
    “Wouldnt surprise me in the least dude. Seriously.

    feds-logging.at.tc”

    adds what to the conversation? it isn’t even topical.

    please, evict the spammers, save the planet!

  • Pingback: The US International Trade Commission (USITC) told that piracy loss claims are exaggerated. « The Ambivalent One

  • Anonymous

    Piracy losses are a hoax. People spend more money on entertainment because of piracy.

  • Anonymous

    @17 nice song

  • Pingback: Copyright? Dati gonfiati - Trucchi PC Italia

  • Chris

    In the hay-day of Napster, when Metalica was bitching about loss sales and copyright infringement and blah-de-blah, the music industry was making RECORD HIGH SALES! People still bought music, people will still pay for movies.

  • anonymouses

    doo do doodoot doo do doodoot doo do doodoot, you have entered the twilight zone…., where everything in politics makes sense, especially when talking about copyright law…. dun dunt dun dunnnn!!!! no this is just probably one of those one time only things you will here about them telling the truth. But like 1 said it will probably be ignored after the MPAA, RIAA and etc. pay for there vacations and hookers and booze.

  • Crushit

    Use to be a time when their was music for all age groups. The industry knows how easy kids are sucked into hype and peer pressure. Well I’m in my 50′s and I have to go back into my collection from the 60,70,80. The industry threw a whole gereation away. Occasionally they advertise someone like D Krall.Whats really remarkable is my kids fell for all that crap from the industry and I was kind of worried, that didn’t last very long though. Once they were able to traverse the internet they found just how plastic and untalented most of these people are. They read that Lip syncing is out of control and glamor sells, not talent.At about 15 into their teens they realized they were conned by the industry. Its great to hear them coming home and mouthing the words to a song by Foriegner and not some plastic charlatan. The industry doesn’t have to worry about any loss in sales from me because they don’t put out any music worth downloading. I download music I have in my vinyl collection. What the industry fails to see and capitalize on is that their is a whole generation that grew up with rock and roll that have deep pockets and would buy instead of expecting us to re-buy what we all ready have. That could be the problem right their. They would have to find real talent because the older gen can see through the bullsh*t.

  • metoo

    yeah they just want to promote their shit movies with this exaggerated losses , thanks you god because bittorrent are also promoted

  • themorons.

    they’re muddying the issue by talking about pirate DVDs in the same breath as torrents.

    Anyone who would pay for a pirate DVD is a moron.
    Pirated DVDs should be illegal, and china should be nuked of the face of the planet for their lax IP laws.

  • Pingback: Quick & Dirty (10) « Journal du Hack

  • Pingback: Professors warn that piracy lost revenue figures are inflated | MyCE – My Consumer Electronics

  • Ninja

    OMG! Sanity in the epicenter of copywrong madness?!

    O wait, MAFIAA doesn’t give a damn to sanity.

    Good to see there are sane voices near the government. Sad to know they’ll be ignored.

  • Pingback: renaissance chambara | Ged Carroll - Links of the day

  • Devo

    When an album comes along
    You must rip it
    Before the movie’s out too long
    You must rip it
    When the industry’s goin’ wrong
    You must rip it

  • Rastus

    Everything I’ve ever downloaded was done so for two reasons: Either it simply isn’t available anywhere else, or I wasn’t going to pay the asking price for it. Never equates to a lost sale. They lost the sale when they made it too expensive for me.

  • Pingback: The Benefits Of Performing A Preliminary Search Before Incorporating | Copy ... Out

  • Notathief

    Amen Rastus.

    I heard a claim the other day that Limewire was responsible for $1Billion in lost sales due to piracy.. If these people were all going to buy the shit they downloaded, why didn’t they buy it? A download is not a lost sale as the majority of downloaders never had any intention to purchase the media they download (or were unable to.)

    I’m a student of very limited means, I do not benefit monetarily from being able to read books or watch shows or listen to music that I download.. And noone is losing any money by me downloading them because i don’t have the means (or intention) to buy them in the first place.

  • Adam Gaskins

    A lot of people seem to think this stuff is too ‘geeky’ to care about… I guess they either don’t understand the the principles and fundamental rights that are at risk here, or they just don’t care that business models created for a world of limited material goods are being forced, by… legislation, on markets where the concept of supply and demand don’t apply. It appears that some love capitalism so much that they want to have it applied to our lives even when it’s not necessary or relevant. This is about stagnant & dying business models grasping to hold on to past glory. This isn’t about people pirating copyrighted material anymore than the Tea Party was about drinking tea. It’s not about getting expensive stuff for free, it’s about not having freedom become an expensive commodity in the digital world.

  • Dine

    What bitfiddler said in post #3 is correct. I myself have bought more and more games from Steam as of late, simply because it’s easier to buy it, keep it on a safe and secure remote drive (Steam), and download it from there as a virtual package; than it is searching for it as a torrent, downloading it, searching for a crack that works, find a new update, a new crack, etc. If they could make a system that looked very much like the one Steam or Spotify is using then their profits would most likely skyrocket in the moviebiz.

    I simply cannot see the issue. Someone is going to release it online in the end, so it might as well be themselves who do it. And if they’re the ones who do it, they get to do it in a controled environment.

  • soldier122

    “The movie folks said that VHS would be the death of their industry and attempted to outlaw it. But the ease of recording and time-shifting helped make movies popular again. The movie folks resisted allowing Wal Mart to sell DVDs for under $10, but it turns out that people will buy tons of movies at a reasonable price and give the movie industry huge profits. Sigh! If the studios would make their movies available for download for a reasonable price, with reliable high quality and no DRM, the piracy would come to a screeching halt and they could make excellent profits.”

    but see this way to much sense man, cuz they gotta hazve shit there way or nothing at all

  • Mark

    These companies are crazy anyway, they think that if we couldn’t download there media we would go buy it? Fuck that if I couldn’t download the shit on my computer I still wouldn’t go buy, I would buy a radio.

  • Pingback: cdc std treatment guidelines 2009

  • Pingback: Davos Annual Meeting 2009 – Managing Global Risks | pacific health home

  • AlphaDawg

    These companies need to refresh their media. When was the last time you saw someone walking around with a personal CD player? CDs are on their last leg. That’s why they don’t sell. Why buy a DVD when I can download something & put it on a Micro SD card & watch it on my phone, or on my computer? They need to pour some money into the technological sector & give us something new & more useful.

    When they come up with a player that will play movies on an SD card, USB drive, & able to stream wirelessly from my PC, I’ll start buying movies again. Until then screw hollywood & the MPAA. Same goes with CDs. CDs feel ancient & that’s what is still in stores.

    The entertainment industry has had it too easy for too long. They did this to theirselves & now they’re QQ’ing about it. They’ve sold us plastic discs that cost less than a 5 cents to make for $20. We’re tired of the blatant extortion & your money grubbing ways. So cry somemore, your tears taste so sweet… ;)

  • Someone

    @nWo – That’s not true at all. A very large chunk of people will continue to download everything, since free is better than any fee.

  • lee

    OBSama can’t count; DieBold!

  • JTKirk

    I wonder what would happen if Adobe Creative Suite was impossible to download and use illegally?

    Overnight the majority of tens of 1000s of design/art+ students throughout the world couldnt use the product. They’d find another product that was either vastly cheaper or free. And then they would graduate not knowing how to use CS. Adobe would die within a few years.

    Adobe need the pirated copies in order to ensure their products continue to be the industry standard. I’ve heard (reliable 2nd hand source) of an Adobe insider acknowledge this too.

  • Pingback: Copyright? Dati gonfiati « YBlog

  • Tony Schwartz

    I think this is a fairly serious claim. This information should be circulated. If they are full of shit – it is important for everyone to know.

  • Pingback: US Government Told Piracy Losses Are Exaggerated | TorrentFreak « Economics Info

  • Pingback: InfoSec Daily » Episode 158 – Certs, USITC, Snoopers & Manning

  • BTGuard - BitTorrent Anonymously

NewsBits

Even more news...

  • The Pirate Bay Isn’t Down Completely, Just Having a Few Issues

    Twitter and Facebook, not to mention the TorrentFreak inbox, are currently alive with complaints that The...

  • Pirate Bay Founder Gottfrid Svartholm on Freedom of Speech

    Freedom of speech is a highly valued commodity, but should people be allowed to say whatever...

  • Blu-ray Anti-Piracy Tech Stops Discs and Promotes Purchases

    An anti-piracy system present in all official Blu-ray players since 2012 has received a fresh update...

  • Foxtel Breeds Pirates by Locking Up Game of Thrones

    One of the main reasons why people turn to piracy is the lack of legal alternatives....

  • UK Student Admits Breaching Sony Copyrights With Leak of PS3 SDK

    Last year an Internet user known as El Nomeo leaked version 3.70 of Sony’s Playstation3 SDK...

MostDiscussed

Below are TorrentFreak's most discussed articles of the past month. Join the discussion if you like.

CopyQuote

Left Quote

“The Pirate Bay has been one of the most important movements in Sweden for freedom of speech, working against corruption and censorship.

Peter Sunde Left Quote

PopularArticles

A selection of some TorrentFreak's classics dug up from our archives.