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How Big Music Threatened Startups and Killed Innovation

An unprecedented new report has detailed how the destruction of Napster chilled a decade’s worth of innovation in the music industry. Through interviews with 31 CEOs, company founders, and VPs who operated in digital music during the period, we hear how Big Music collapsed startups, turned down ‘blank check’ deals, and personally threatened innovators with ruination for both them and their families.

By interviewing 31 CEOs, company founders and VPs who operated in the digital music scene during the past 10 years, Associate Professor Michael A. Carrier at Rutgers University School of Law has produced a most enlightening report on the decade long aftermath of the Napster shutdown.

The interviewees are no lightweights. Included are former Napster CEO Hank Bank, Imeem founder Dalton Caldwell, Seeqpod founder Kasian Franks, Real Networks founder Rob Glaser, Scour VP & General Counsel Craig Grossman, former Gracenote CEO David Hyman, AudioGalaxy founder Michael Merhej, founder of MP3Tunes Michael Robertson, former RIAA CEO Hilary Rosen, and numerous venture capitalists and label execs.

The result is an unprecedented report on how the shutdown of Napster chilled innovation, discouraged investment, and led to a climate of copyright law-fueled fear that pushed technologists and music further apart.

It started with a drain on cash. Interviewees reported that venture capital funding for digital music “became a wasteland”, a “scorched earth kind of place” housing a “graveyard of music companies.” With the big labels choosing where and when to sue, funding was hard to come by.

Nevertheless, some innovators didn’t give up, although when the labels were through with them many probably wished they had. The report details instances where innovators tried to get label approval but found themselves in extremely difficult situations.

One recalled that the labels “don’t license you if you don’t have traffic” but once enough footfall is achieved then “they want to get paid for ‘infringement’ and the longer it takes to license you, the larger the ‘infringement’ number they can justify charging you.”

Another described a litigation “Ponzi scheme” whereby settlements and other fees extracted from startups were used to fund the labels’ ongoing litigation strategy. However, like all Ponzi schemes there was a problem – maintaining momentum. “Once you stop suing new people there are no new settlements to pay for the ongoing litigation,” one interviewee reported.

But the labels weren’t always unreceptive to new ideas – as long as they were bad ones. The report notes that the labels were happy to take “big, up-front fees” of “10, 20 million bucks” from startups they knew wouldn’t make it. Carrier reports that a leading officer from one label admitted that they would “cripple the companies by demanding such advances and guarantees that they go belly up.”

Established services couldn’t make progress with the labels either, even when they did everything they could to avoid copyright issues. One, that boasted several million users and “interest from top-tier VCs – really the top of the top,” was also sued by the labels.

“After they sued us, our opening offer to them was: ‘You guys made your point; we will charge anything you want to charge, and you can take any percentage you want to take,” a respondent reported. “It was literally an offer of a blank check.” The labels refused and said they wanted the service shut down instead.

But for those who didn’t give in to the threats life could get very difficult, not just for their companies, but for them as individuals. The specter of personal liability often raised its head.

One innovator was told by the labels that his company would be left alone but he would be sued personally instead. “We can make all kinds of allegations and it’s your job to prove you’re not infringing,” he was told, with the labels adding that the lawsuit would cost him “between $15m and $20m.”

One of the respondents said it was “very scary” when the labels presented a “..multiple inch lawsuit for a couple billion bucks”, one with the potential to hang over his head for “the rest of [his] life.”

The threats also extended to the families of innovators. One was told it was “too bad” he had children “..who are going to want to go to college and you’re not going to be able to pay for it.”

Astonishingly, in some cases threats turned into actual violence. One respondent told Carrier about his experiences in the rap business of “people being physically intimidated” and “being hung out of windows.”

The strength of the threats were augmented by the uncertainty inherent in copyright law. One innovator said it was like a protection racket or the way politics work in corrupt countries where everything is OK until it’s not OK.

“You do what you want until one day you can’t and they come and your tail light’s broken.”

The full 63-page report, Copyright and Innovation: The Untold Story, is available here.

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  • No1_2_u

    & the poster child for the entire Napster debacle was Metallica; they fell off the face of the Earth for their treachery & nobody gives a shit what they do anymore.

    Hey MAFIAA, you should have heeded the warning; Metallica was the king of the mountain, they thought they were invulnerable; after Napster, we the people spoke, where are they now?

    Fucking losers, that’s where they are!

    • arb1

       Metallica started it all yes but music companies weren’t far behind to jump on that wagon.

      • No1_2_u

        I know, & that’s my point.

        Metallica started this entire bullshit, & look @ the price they paid; today they’re nobodies.

        Back then, we the people, & probably a very small amount @ that, got pissed off @ Metallica & in the span of a few months were less than scum; how much longer can the MAFIAA continue this rearguard campaign before we decide to also send them to oblivion?

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_VZIAOYSSSQ67THE2KAG65WN3GU Eric Steffens

          To be fair, “St. Anger” probably would have still sucked no matter what their copyright views were.

        • FrostyC

          GO GO MEGABOX!

        • http://twitter.com/GertrudeJPhilli Gertrude J. Phillips

          Nevertheless, some innovators didn’t give up, although when the labels were through with them many probably wished they had.  http://MayorMoney.blogspot.com

        • Nihil Quest

          Come on, like them or not, Metallica is still one of the biggest bands that exist.

      • Guest

         Big Music but Shitty Quality

    • http://cheapassfiction.com/ Aelius Blythe

      Yeah, I try to take some morbid comfort from the fact that, the way things are going, many of these dinosaurs are going to fall on their own swords  (or…..  spikes, since dinosaurs don’t have swords.) 

      But it is still sickening to read things like this, because I bet no amount of “HAHA you fucked yourselves, jackasses!” is really going to comfort the people who had their businesses and lives destroyed by said jackasses

      • Mwhahaha

        A dinosaur with a sword would be pretty cool tho.

      • No1_2_u

        I agree with you 100% that ” it is still sickening to read things like this, because I bet no amount of “HAHA you fucked yourselves, jackasses!” is really going to comfort the people who had their businesses and lives destroyed by said jackasses”.

        I am not laughing one bit @ Metallica’s demise; I only take comfort in the fact that, in the end, no matter what the MAFIAA does, we will prevail.

      • NonDisclosedIdentity

         The companies fighting the labels were soldiers storming the beach.  It’s sad, but they set the stage for what will be the eventual destruction of the big labels.

    • Mwhahaha

      Yeah!
      Millionaire metalhead losers.Wait……dammit.

    • Guest

      Who is with me for hanging high all these big labels corporate parasites once and for all?

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=611862174 Daryl Derksen

       to be honest, you should look at what they are doing now. They are filming a new band documentary, launching a new tour with a stage that has been billed as “the largest most elaborate indoor stage ever built”, and are only doing three cities with an average ticket price of 80 dollars a piece. The math says that 10000+ seats times 80 equals 80 grand a night plus sales from other wares, minus rental of the space and wages you still walk out with about 50 to 60 grand. Pretty good money for one night of work. Also, Even though I hate what metallica did, I’m still going to the concert, because nothing is better than going to see a band that you love and supporting them to make more and better music along the way.

      • Pieter

        The math says $800k a night.

      • No1_2_u

        You are free to spend, as you see fit, your hard earned $.

        I loved Metallica, until they went after Napster.

        I for one refuse to finance w/ my $ the MAFIAA’s war on my “Rights & Freedom” by supporting a band / artist who has CLEARLY shown their true colour by going after their fan base, who were merely sharing the music of a band they adulated.

      • NonDisclosedIdentity

        It’s a value judgment, but I’d say that there are certainly better things that could be done with $80 and an evening than support four people that don’t give a damn about you.  You could buy someone poor some school books, you could buy a homeless person some food or a night in a hotel, you could pay for some random person’s gas.

      • http://twitter.com/librtee Sasha@librtee

        You’re a tool.

        “Even though they shit down my throat, I still love them…shut up and take my money!”

        Your money is your vote. You are voting for thuggish anti-piracy tactics. Don’t complain if you or your friends ever get sued by the MAFIAA, because YOU support it.

        People who love music are happy to make a modest living from it. Greedy scumbags who love money more than music demand to make millions.

    • Andpprice

      Also consider Metallica has been making garbage music for about a decade. So factor that into their fall.

      • No1_2_u

        I agree, they have been producing garbage for @ least a decade, & I do factor that in their fall.

        However, it would be hard to argue that the beginning of the end for Metallica did not begin w/ their attitude & behaviour during the entire Napster episode which occured between 2000 & 2001; 12 years ago.

        “Ulrich provided a statement to the Senate Judiciary Committee regarding copyright infringement on July 11, 2000. Federal Judge Marilyn Hall Patel ordered the site place a filter on the program in 72 hours or be shut down”.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallica#Napster_controversy_.282000.E2.80.932001.29

    • zenithmaster

      Metallica became increasingly irrelevant because they grew old and boring, not because of Napster.

    • Nick

      After all, you got really the power??? the customer, as always.

  • Arb1

    Hence why they are in shamble’s now they killed the futures of their business before they could even start up.  poetic justice anyone?

  • No1_2_u

    & the poster child for the Napster debacle was Metallica.

    Hey MAFIAA, you should have heeded the warning back then; Metallica was the King of the Mountain, Ulrich thought they were invincible, after Napster, we the people spoke, where is Metallica now, nowhere, nobody gives a shit anymore what they do.

    It’s only a matter of time before the same happens to you; MAFIAA CEOs, can you hear it coming, the sound of the asteriod plowing through the atmosphere to, yet again, kill off the dinsosaurs (i.e. you)!

    • Guest

      Why do I get the feeling that said asteroid is probably rather large and colored a bright and nearly obnoxious shade of orange?

  • Nimski

    The recording industry doesn’t like competition. They feel it is within best interest to stay with their current outdated business model and spark up a new generation of children that despise them. After they all retire we will take their positions, except this time with a different perspective.  

    • Arb1

       sad part is by time that happens their companies will have lost all their big talent or won’t be able to sign any of them cause they found places like megabox that gives them decent cut and better business model that is based on todays way not 30 years ago

    • Andrew me

      Karma is a bitch and i suspect they will be getting a lot of payback over the next few years, if not the next few months.

  • Urrxxrfw

    “This project received funding from Google pursuant to its Research Award program.” – knock me over with a feather

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  • Abc

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the copywrong goons need taking to court for crimes against humanity and killing innovation, I understand that takes big $$$, so the best thing you can do if you don’t have the money is seed hell out of some torrents and stop buying stuff from the copywrong goons, that really pisses the goons off.

    Oh and is the “being hung out of windows” thing the Vanilla Ice thing? 

    • Mwhahaha

      Crimes against humanity?  
      Perspective please.

      • Anyone

        ruining countless people’s lives and trying to censor everything is a pretty big crime in my book

      • Guest

        I think holding back the progress of humanity can be construed as a crime against it.

      • http://twitter.com/librtee Sasha@librtee

        Supporting government efforts to censor and control internet and free speech in guise of combating piracy = crime against humanity.

  • Anonymous

    and governments believe the shit the industries spin them about how they are losing business and profits because of the amount of ‘piracy’ and ‘file sharing’ that happens every day and the number of sites that are making ‘infringing’ downloads of music/movies available for free. they then go ahead and introduce new laws that protect the labels and badly hurt the people. the labels are their own worse enemies. if that was where the harm stopped, i wouldn’t complain but as it effects just about every person on the planet i do. it’s so sad when there are any number of new things not in existence now simply because a load of self-preserving, ancient old farts that want to remain technologically (and profit) wise in days gone by cant bear even the thought that there is something better than what they offer.

  • http://twitter.com/Anime4PSP Anime 4 PSP

    They sure go great lengths to kill innovation. Nevertheless, hell if it will save em. Content industry WILL die, unless they stop being idiots which is not going to happen anyway

  • http://www.twitter.com/echoman74 echoman

    I think it’s going to be hilarious when they industry starts going flopping ape shit when there is a whole new market they can’t and won’t be able to touch. Innovators need to keep track of ips to these major labels etc. So they can’t blame them for pretend loses. A good example would be grooveshark whose having/had trouble with the labels. Be wise be smart in the business because the big bad wolf always looks to hunt you down and eat you

  • theonlyone

    This scenario fits right in with the way the US government works. Organized crininals and thugs.

    • Techanon

      Right, it is blatantly obvious that the music industry is dominated by racketeering gangsters. Porn, movie and software industry as well, the entire copyright monopoly is a giant worldwide racket.

    • http://profiles.google.com/zerianis10 Christopher Kidwell

      Not just the US government. Almost all governments, when you get down to brass tacks, have been infiltrated by organized crime.

  • BlurrTheTechnicolor

    this article just shows yet again how ludicrous and hypocritical the big music companies are
    they want us to follow their rules but themselves couldnt care less about anything

    VIVA LA PIRATERIA

    • Fredrika

      > “this article just shows yet again how ludicrous and hypocritical the big music companies are”

      No, it shows how harmful the monopoly part of copyright is to society, the economy, new businesses and the free market. If society dismantled the monopoly part so that on-line entrepreneurs are equalled to radio stations, as in among other countries Russia, then anyone could start an on-line business and sell digital products and services using music and movies, where after they pay a percentage-based fee as radio stations do, to the copyright owners.

      Why should the copyright holder be privileged with the power to say no to on-line services and products, or demand certain prices, formats or DRM, when they are not allowed to say no to radio, libraries, private copying and filesharing in many countries? There exists no evidence that supports the thesis that the monopoly part of copyright necessarily must regulate on-line services and products, for the goal with copyright to occur, so it should rightfully be thrown out the window, as the illegitimate legislation that it is.

      One of the first thing you learn on a economical course is that legislative monopolies will never ever stimulate the market or new business ideas, and this study proves just that, once again.

      • Mwhahaha

        That’s the most sensible thought I’ve seen for quite a while.  
        I wished this place looked at solutions more, and wasn’t just moaning about horrible people most of the time.

        • Guest

          ^ Moans, doesn’t contribute solution, fails to see irony

  • Andrew me

    The problem they have is that all there power has been taken away from them. I could if i wanted go to the piratebay and download any music track or album i wanted free, no charge, not one penny going to them, and most children do that every day, children are laughing at other children that pay for music these days, they just see it as stupid to pay for something everyone can get free. This is how millions laugh in there faces every day, i laugh all the time when i hear how thepiratebay makes them look like fools with no idea what they are doing.

    I predict a mass court case against the music industry eventually  where they will be individually identified as using threats and maffia style actions to get what they want, they will regret these actions when they have no money to fight them and when those with money start class action suits all over the world against there business and them as individuals,they will be the ones who have to worry about there kids getting a decent education, as the start-ups join together to force them to pay for there crimes.

    Remember most of the startups are or were created by very clever people who will have divorced themselves from the “industry” probably making millions from other interests and just waiting to give a little payback where it is needed.

    This story in itself actually gives every single one of us the right to download anything we want and not to worry one little bit about who loses, even the artists as they should not be a part of the sham that is the music industry  today.

  • Anyone

    there is a reason it is called the MAFIAA

    • http://7-books.net/ SleepyJohn

      Very many years ago I knew a small band that was signed up by a label. They were apparently told straightaway that if they rose to a certain level of success they would have to accept the American Mafia controlling their lives. If they did not, they would be finished. I laughed at the time.

      I think the sooner this rotten, rat-infested edifice of a copyright industry is burned to the ground along with the criminal thugs controlling it the better it will be for the human race. The one bright spot I see is that their behaviour has been so openly loathsome that the moment another route opens up for young musicians, these animals will be abandoned in a millisecond. Even their employees in government will not be able to order youngsters to sign contracts I have seen described as “close to legal slavery”.

      The truth is that, for all their odious, thuggish, revolting behaviour, they are finished. All they are doing is shoving deckchairs in the way of the fleeing passengers as their ship goes down, and sueing the passengers for not paying ludicrous money to sit on them. This is a pain in the arse for those trying to get off the ship, but it will never keep the thing afloat.

      • Guest

         SleepyJohn, Who was the band that you knew and what label were they signed to?

        • http://7-books.net/ SleepyJohn

           I’ve no recollection of the label, may even have just been an agent or something; it was thirty odd years ago! I was on the periphery somewhat, writing words, and was bunged 100 pounds for first refusal of some lyrics. I remember it all fizzled out and we drifted apart, so I don’t think they would appreciate their name in lights here.

          I only mentioned it really because Anyone’s simple comment struck a chord, which brought it from the depths of my memory. My feeling is that the US Entertainment Industry seems to have a business model and attitude sufficiently indistinguishable from that exhibited by Organised Crime Syndicates as to make the question of whether they are one rather moot. Either way I think the world would be a better place without them.

          Life is too short to try and prove these things so we should just emulate the little boy who looked at the Emperor’s New Clothes – ignore what everyone tells us, and see what is there to be seen.

      • ScrewEwe2

        I’m surprised the MAFIAA hasn’t resorted to whacking people ala Sammy the RAT Gravano for whatever they view as breaking their rules.

      • Guest

        That’s a rather selective, and seemingly now not at all reliable, memory you have there SleepyJohn.

  • JESSICA97874210

    0rz.tw/hHcIP

  • JESSICA97874210

    tell every one ..0rz.tw/hHcIP

  • Violated0

    All this was done to protect their old market CD sales, their market monopoly control, then to kill off start-ups as best they could. Forcing infringement, prices no business could accept, suing, suing and suing everyone, many nasty threats, then wanting to destroy start-ups rather than settle.

    In all to try and stop the process of technology and innovation. Then here is the RIAA saying they are not anti-technology.As we know they got things badly wrong and stood in the way of progress and what the public wanted. Naturally infringement came first but they sure lost out big time to Apple when their iTunes cut through the pie.Well the RIAA have sure had their monopoly shattered when now only 45% of the music market belongs to them and the Indie artists own the rest. Their gangster ways and unreasonable contracts long exposed. This is not to say though that these RIAA labels are not at their end when we may recall DaJaz1 and I see even one Judge totally flames them for not paying one artist what they should have and then guess who modified the very court order to try and pay him less.

    One thing that is true to say is that copyright is not there to protect the artist when copyright and the product belongs to the middlemen (and women). So the box shifters became the gatekeepers and then unified into the ultimate market controlling monopoly now called the RIAA.

    • Mwhahaha

      Remember all the fuss about CDwow selling CDs for less than a tenner? 

      Seems quaint now.

    • SomeoneInToulouse

      I was a student at a tech university for far too many years, so I witnessed both the birth of the commercialised internet and the Napster debacle.

      I knew what was coming – I actually remember predicting quite a few things to people at parties which have since come to pass. One of these, during the Napster thing, was that the industry had its head in the sand and should have switched ASAP to a model where all media is available online, either for a monthly subscription (e.g. Spotify) or a small fee per item (e.g. iTunes). I will admit I got it very slightly wrong since iTunes charged a heck of lot more per song than I was thinking and it was a one-time fee. I imagined more of a pennies-per-listen system.

      And talking of iTunes – one thing I’ve *always* wondered – what kind of backroom deals took place to let Apple do what the industry insisted was illegal and/or impossible just prior?

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  • http://twitter.com/devinprater La devin.preitr

    Why haven’t the big bad MPAA and RIaa and all of them been destroyed yet?

    • http://profiles.google.com/zerianis10 Christopher Kidwell

      Too many elected officials protecting them thus far through fiat of law, basically.

    • blotmouse

      Because artists like Drake and Justin Beiber have proven that marketing is all you need to sell music you sold 10 years ago and it will continue just like Hollywood until you assholes stop consuming said crap. 

      • PassserBy

        Lol & Exactly.

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  • ashely98898789

    must read tinyurl.com/cocoszas

  • Mwhahaha

    Not surprising at all. Sad to hear about, all the same.
    The story of the music business is the same over and over again from its inception to the latest lawsuit against a file sharer.—————- The elephant in the article (as it were) is itunes.Why did they do so well where others failed? Was it their spending power? Their drm policy? Their legal team?That would be an interesting way to see the fuller story of the birth of digital music.

    • Mwhahaha

      fucking paragraph glitch

    • Guest

      Steve Jobs was even more of a stubborn motherfucker than the labels were.  Also I believe some threats were made that iTunes would proceed without the labels if it had to, which would have resulted in them being left out of the future of music distribution and crushed by indies. 

      So it’s actually kind of a pitty that the labels capitulated…

      • http://www.facebook.com/david.c.fuchs David C Fuchs

        After reading the article and part of the report. I realize that going after MegaUpload wasn’t about it being a file locker, it was about preventing MegaBox from being implemented. It would have wiped out the labels profits and changed things.

  • Guest

    Who is with me for hanging high all these big labels corporate parasites once and for all? 

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  • foff

    Metallica is nothing but a shit stain on the road of rock and roll has beens.  I remember when DAT was killed because the industry was worried about perfect copies.  Well it turns out that a copy is a copy and it does not really matter how perfect it is.  Low quality mp3 has no fidelity but it is fine for almost everyone.  

    The mafiaa has always been an enemy of technology.  I mean for fuck sakes how long has the internet been in existence and the industry has not embraced it?  All they want to do is fight and cause havoc by censoring.  They need to get a life.

    People buy from apple because they had  a whole integrated package.  No one would buy shit from itunes without the ipods and now the ipads and iphones.  Most of the kids I talk to use itunes cards to buy apps or games not music.  
    I suspect the ones buying music are the computer illiterates that don’t know any better. You know the granola nuts that jog or bike around with ear buds crammed in their ears.

    The point is apple is not a good example of selling digital files because they offer a whole package not just digital files.  The industry has basically made it impossible for anyone other than a major corporation to sell music online.  Why isn’t there mom and pop sites selling music online?  The industry refuses to license them by insisting on terms impossible for anyone without big money to comply with.  They also killed internet radio which at one time had great promise.  

    So these industries were killed years ago in their infancy then the mafiaa whines about piracy but does nothing to promote music sales in digital form and via the internet.  Any music sold in the store ought be in digital form on a flash drive not on an old school cd.   If industry stopped making cd’s it might be hard to get a flac quality trac.  As far as I know there is no legal place to actually buy a lossless trac. I suspect that industry is paying retail stores for the space to display discs because they have some fantasy that people will somehow give up downloading mp3′s and actually buy a disc.  Whatever reason they have not gone away no one cares and no one is buying anymore,  

  • White Punk on Dope

    Any one ever hear the song … “Everybody Plays The Fool” 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4pv8H03Xag 

    My Baby Momma’s Daddy wrote the music to that song way back when. 
    He has a website … http://www.adishatunes.com/  Ken Williams. 

    He recently had a good success with Alicia Keys with this remake … 
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Don't_Know_My_Name 

    Now Ken and his cool wife Mary Seymour … 
    see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musique_(Patrick_Adams) 
    are looking to utilize a gigantic library of original 70′s music they have. 

    Right now it’s collecting dust.  The old model they grew up on does not work. 
    Heck … they’re just regular folks who live just a few miles away. 
    They are in there 70′s (just like the music they created). 

    It doesn’t matter if your thirteen or thirty or eighteen or eighty-three. 
    Artists + Audience = Good. 

    So how do artists reinvent themselves? 
    ABANDON THE MAFIAA! 
    PIRATE MUSIC! 
    VOTE! 

    There has to be a way. 

    I do not know what to tell them. 

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gear-Mentation/100003097514663 Gear Mentation

       Neither do I.  The ultimate betrayal of the MAFIAA is they have fought change for so long they are too late to innovate: the pirates have made it easy, and that was most of the point from the beginning.

  • http://twitter.com/unthekno nthekno

    sounds quite familiar when it comes to the megaupload/megabox ordeal, how funny is that lol

  • Wert

    the real game by the record companies is to destroy any alternative distribution system. that is why they are not interested in any blank checks, or any viable proposal. the record companies see internet companies as a serious threat to their business model. think what amazon has done to book sellers. the big deal with napster wasnt copyright, it was a new way for artists to reach the customers. the recoding industry just want to shut them down so that artists and consumers continue to have to go through them as the middle men.

  • Rockers

    h33t.com & His Forum also Down  What Going On Any One Expain Me GC Show Me http://i.imgur.com/BFoRs.jpg 

  • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

    I don’t think that it “chilled a decade’s worth of innovation in the music industry. ”

    When illegal services are taken down, this is beneficial to innovation of legal services like Spotify and Voddler or even iTunes and App Store. The record industry may be dead but selling music and apps in digital form is not.

    Also note that technology is never illegal, it’s illegal use of technology that is illegal. Even The Pirate Bay could be fully legal, if no longer used for copyrighted material and with an efficient moderation. Also Napster could have been fully legal under these prerequisites. P2P technology is not illegal and is used in many legal ways. It’s the use that makes it legal or illegal, not the technology.

    • Fredrika

      > “Even The Pirate Bay could be fully legal..”

      As you are well aware of the Pirate Bay is considered fully legal according to the judicial system, because there exists no precedent sentences that says that their mode of operations is generally illegal. That’s how the judicial systems actually works, and you have yourself admitted to understanding and accepted this.

      > “..if no longer used for copyrighted material..”

      100% of the material on Pirate Bay is non-copyrighted. 100% of the material on Pirate Bay is legal.

      > “..and with an efficient moderation.”

      They have very efficient moderation, everything that’s properly reported and that breaks the rules gets deleted.

      • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

        “As you are well aware of the Pirate Bay is considered fully legal according to the judicial system, because there exists no precedent sentences that says that their mode of operations is generally illegal.”

        Actually, the law is applied to each individual case, precedent sentences or not. Also, precedent sentences are only advisory according to the Swedish judicial system, not regulatory. The Pirate Bay sentence has in practice the same effect as being precedent, either you like it or not.

        “100% of the material on Pirate Bay is non-copyrighted. 100% of the material on Pirate Bay is legal.”

        Doesn’t matter in case of accessory to copyright infringement. There have been at least one similar case in Sweden with the same result. And even a parallel case regarding illegal drugs (drogforum.net) where a person was sentenced to 4 years of prison for running a discussion forum designed to simplify buying/selling illegal drugs. He didn’t even buy or sell any drugs himself and was only accessory to dealing with illegal drugs. Since Internet is still rather new, you’ll have more cases like this and you’ll each time find that the law does not consider the technology used, it’s the net result that’s important.

        “They have very efficient moderation, everything that’s properly reported and that breaks the rules gets deleted.”

        In a sense that having no rules is efficient to maintain, you’re right. But the rules are not designed to make the site legal, in fact it’s illegal.

        • Fredrika

          > “Actually, the law is applied to each individual case, precedent sentences or not.”

          A fact that i have not denied, nor does it change the fact that Pirate Bay is considered fully legal according to the judicial system. That’s your first straw-man argument.

          > “Also, precedent sentences are only advisory according to the Swedish judicial system, not regulatory.”

          Precedent sentences are indeed regulatory for how courts should sentence, lower courts are not allowed to sentence against a precedent, but that was not what was discussed, so that the second straw-man argument you used.

          > “The Pirate Bay sentence has i practice the same effect as being precedent, either you like it or not.”

          It does in no way have the same effect. The effect a precedent sentence has is that it states that a certain act is to be pre-determined considered generally illegal. The Pirate Bay sentences in no way has that effect. The only effect it has is that it can give limited precedent guidelines, or viss prejudicerande effekt, but that does not decide what’s illegal, which was the discussed topic which you again lost track of, whether you like it or not, so that’s your third straw-man argument.

          > “Doesn’t matter in case of accessory to copyright infringement.”

          The discussed topic in that argumentative thread was not what matters in cases of accessory to copyright infringement, the statement was the 100% of the material on Pirate Bay is legal and non-copyrighted, which it indeed is. So that’s your fourth completely irrelevant straw-man argument.

          > “There have been at least one similar case in Sweden with the same result.”

          Which also has no relevance whatsoever to the argumentative thread which you seems to have completely lost track of by now. That’s your fifth straw-man argument.

          > “In a sense that having no rules is efficient to maintain, you’re right. But the rules are not designed to make the site legal..”

          Which was not the discussed topic, so that’s your sixth straw-man argument.

          > “..in fact it’s illegal.”

          No, according to the judicial system, where all things and acts are generally considered legal until a precedent sentence says that a specific thing or act is to be considered generally illegal, it’s is indeed considered fully legal.

          That’s how the judical systems actually works, whether you like ot or not.

          To summarize, you used six completely irrelevant straw-man arguments which made no difference whatsoever, and you closed with the repeating of a lie, and still every single claim in your initial post is false.

        • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

          @flphpp:disqus 

          I don’t think you should go on with all these straw man accusations, in fact I could easily do the same with your original answer. Your accusations are false and does not contribute to the debate in any way.

          The sentences I referred to show that you’re wrong and I’m right. I don’t blame you for having a hard time facing that but I still think that you should reconsider and try a more constructive attitude.

        • Fredrika

          > “I don’t think you should go on with all these straw man accusations, in fact I could easily do the same with your original answer.”

          Then please do so, if you can? I strongly encourage you to do so.

          > “Your accusations are false .”

          They are in no way false? Do you not know what a straw-man is? A straw-man argument is when your argument responds do something different than what was actually claimed in the previous statement, which you clearly did in every single case, and the opposite applied to my statements, which responded to exactly what was written, and nothing else. Would you like me to clarify it for you even further?

          > “..and does not contribute to the debate in any way..”

          They were intended to rebut certain false statements made by you, that in turn in no way contributed to the debate, so why did you make them in the first place, if you believe contributing to the debate is important??

          > “The sentences I referred to show that you’re wrong and I’m right.”

          It most certainly does not. The sentences you refer to show that certain specific actions where deemed illegal when committed by certain specific and tried individuals, under those, and only those particular circumstances. Those sentences does in no way say that certain acts are generally illegal performed during all different kind of circumstances by all individuals.

          > “I don’t blame you for having a hard time facing that but I still think that you should reconsider and try a more constructive attitude.”

          Hilarious statement coming from the person who doesn’t understand the most basic aspects of how the judicial system actually works.

    • Guest

      Why was Napster illegal? Because the recording industry decided that it was illegal, nothing more. The article brought up examples in which similar companies were willing to negotiate with the labels and give them whatever percent of the money they made. The labels not only refused, but they also issued veiled threats to bankrupt the people involved unless they stopped.

      So, no. You’re completely missing the point of the article.

      Also, your point about not shutting down Napster would have led to less innovation in P2P is silly. If people need to share and transfer massive amounts of data there will be interest in improving the technology. As it is, Hollywood is adamant that all possible methods of sharing – BitTorrent or filelockers – are either outright destroyed, or nerfed to the point of redundance, by which time we might be reduced to swapping HDDs like people swapped mixtapes. So not only is your suggestion mere fanciful theory, it’s pretty much outright wrong. Bringing Napster down gave the RIAA and MPAA a greenlight stating that any company they dislike can be brought down through expensive litigation and introduction of laws that they pay for, which end up inconveniencing end users at best and criminalising them at worst.

      • http://nejtillpirater.wordpress.com/ Nejtillpirater

        “Why was Napster illegal? Because the recording industry decided that it was illegal, nothing more.”

        No, the industry cannot decide this. You have to apply the law!

        The law is not written in a way that makes each individual situation legal or illegal, it has to be interpreted. The interpretation is done by both sides and then the court decides regarding guilty or non guilty. What the industry wants or what the person on trial wants has equal weight, the arguments of both sides are listened to.

        • Guest

          And yet, we very nearly had SOPA, ACTA, and a big slew of other various legislations that would have sidestepped all this “interpretation” that you speak of.

          The copyright industries have consistently complained about every single technology that made it easier to duplicate. We’ve had cases where many people were wrongly implicated when the RIAA embarked on their fishing expeditions (“When you fish with a dragnet, you catch dolphins” – Cara Duckworth of the RIAA) in order to get their pounds of flesh from consumers. Years later, what happened? At best, dragging people through the courts has yielded two cases in Jammie Thomas and Joel Tenebaum, and regardless of what you think of their guilt, do you really think they’re going to be able to pay the damages they somehow owe the industry? And let’s not forget the money that the RIAA was able to get people to cough up due to threats of paying $150,000 per song allegedly infringed.

          All this happened because of your application and interpretation of the law. You claiming that the accused and the copyright holders somehow have equal weight in the courts has been proven wrong, multiple times. Why else would the RIAA be allowed to pursue children, old people, misnamed people, homeless people, computerless people, dead people and laser printers?

          I don’t believe people claim that everything should be free. Personally, I don’t. But you trying to paint copyright holders as some helpless victim with no powers to enforce copyright is extremely disingenuous.

  • Pingback: How Big Music Threatened Startups and Killed Innovation | Best Seedbox

  • meilin622

    tinyurl.com/cozaa3k

  • Fredo

    WTF? Metallica are bigger now than ever.

  • Bree

    HEY BUT CAPITALISM WORKS RIGHT GUYS? NO UNDERHANDED TACTICS HERE, NOPE.

    • Disposable Info

       Dammit, please get shit right before you comment.

      Capitalism works. Governments colluding with Business in an effort to rape competition or the consumer IS NOT CAPITALISM. In fact, it more closely resembles socialism, where the state has ownership of the economy and companies therein. When laws or judgements are passed that are in direct conflict with the current law, that is government control of a market, i.e., socialism.

      Fucking kids nowadays, please learn to read before you go on your soapbox screaming “Herp derp, Capitalism is bad!”

  • Dud_of_Duds

    From this time on, Metallica was dead in my eyes.

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  • reneemjones

    The RIAA and MPAA are thugs and that is the way that thugs act.  The real crime here is the way the courts and our government representatives allow the RIAA and MPAA to abuse and corrupt the system as long as they get their bribes.

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  • quawonk

    MAFIAA indeed.

  • Pingback: 31 Digital Music Execs Sound Off On How P2P Battle Led To Music Industry Demise | Planet 6 String

  • Pingback: 31 Digital Music Execs Sound Off On How P2P Battle Led To Music Industry Demise | Planet Six String

  • Pingback: 31 Digital Music Execs Sound Off On How P2P Battle Led To Music Industry Demise

  • amandajhonson35

    sounds quite familiar when it comes to the megaupload/megabox ordeal, how funny is that lol

  • Crymeariver

    Oh, come on. Pesky laws that protect artists’ original ideas and music, slowed down the advance of technology that was being created to make music free for the taking. And then, when the technology DID break laws in place, they were prosecuted or sued. Cry me a fucking river.

    In the full paper linked here, the words theft, piracy and rogue websites are in parentheses. It’s not a report, it’s an op-ed.

  • Pingback: ARLIVE 5.0 – The Music Industry Edge: Digital Music Execs Sound How P2P Battle Led To Music Industry Demise

  • Randolf

    Metallica. I can’t name a single song from that band. Considering what I hear people say, I also want to keep it that way.

  • Pingback: Streaming Music, Major Record Label and Musicmetric News, July 14, 2012 | Musician Coaching

  • Andy K

    Funny, no one seems to mention the millions of dollars that Napster, Pirate Bay and all of those other nasty little leeches made out of exploiting other people’s work without paying them a penny.

    Articles like this are a complete hoax and distortion of the truth.

    • Guest

      And after Napster and Megaupload were taken down, were artists recouped for the “millions of dollars” that they allegedly lost?

      No, you’re a complete hoax and distortion of the truth. Good luck getting your money from Sunde. Is PelouzeTF breeding you little trollspawns under his special desk, or what?

  • http://www.facebook.com/banni.chatrji Banni Chatrji

    See www.worldfloat.com the next facebook..Travel virtually 1600+ cities while sitting on your seat and social network.http://youtu.be/bh8UlOpRO6g

  • http://www.herbertellis.com/ Robbie Addison

    The result is an unprecedented report on how the shutdown of Napster chilled innovation.

  • Pingback: Wie die Majorlabels Startups bedroht und Innovation getötet haben — neunetz.com

  • Pingback: Wie die Majorlabels Startups bedroht und Innovation getötet haben

  • Pingback: How Big Music Threatened Startups and Killed Innovation « Businessmania

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  • Liam

    This would make perfect sense – The reality is that innovation destroys existing businesses by undercutting them on costs, Any new, successful online music business would rapidly become the new record label, turning the now profitable infrastructure of the existing labels into ‘dead-weights’ and all the staff required to operate them into ‘liabilities’, reducing their ability to compete. The new businesses would deliver higher pay to artists, and lower prices to consumers, and provide a much greater global reach. The once-great record labels would quickly fade into obsolescence.

    All large corporations hate innovation, even more so monopolistic ones, and will fight it at every opportunity. This is the reality, unfortunately they sell the public the opposite story so well that news like this comes as a surprise to many people.

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